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sabdflhello all11:03
czajkowskisabdfl: morning11:03
sabdfldo we have all the wiki licensing folks?11:04
sabdfldholbach: can you lead this one, or do we need mdke?11:04
sabdflunfortunately i have another meeting on the half-hour11:05
popeyseems a bit quiet11:07
sabdflpopey: let's move onto your items11:07
popeyso sounder...11:07
popeyGeneral consensus in the CC seems to be shut it down.11:07
dholbachsorry, I'm late11:08
popeyBut there seems to be some merit in it being around as a discussion forum but one that needs to be somewhat more respectful.11:08
dholbachsabdfl: let's defer the wiki until we have mdke here11:08
sabdfli'd be sad to shut it down11:09
sabdflbut i don't read it, so wouldn't miss it11:09
sabdflhas it continued to be a mess?11:09
dholbachI don't think we ever actively moderated threads on mailing lists before, but it seems to be the only solution at times on ubuntu-users@ and sounder@11:09
popeythere's been some kickback from the regulars on sounder11:09
popeysome protesting that they believe it should still be around and should still have the free speech ethos11:10
popeyI don't know how many subscribers there are on sounder11:10
popeyi suspect only mako and elmo know this as they're the admins of the list11:10
sabdflme neither, but i don't think "free speech ethos" should trump "quality conversation and tone"11:11
popeyso don't know if there's a vocal minority, or if in fact they are the vocal _majority_11:11
dholbachsabdfl: +111:11
popeythere was some kickback that we'd turn it into a far too clean and clinical place11:11
popeywhere people feel they can't be free to talk11:11
popeyfor example there seems to be a "take it to sounder" mentality when things get out of control on other lists11:12
dholbachmy feeling is that it has turned from a chitchat mailing list to a forum for people to regularly misbehave11:12
ghostcubeif i allowed to say anything i would moderate the list, iam on the ccc discussion list in germany and this one isnt moderated, the garbage comeing into mail in folders is to heavy so there wont be a working discussion sometimes11:12
ghostcubemaybe its the same here11:13
popeythere is also a bit of a limit to what we can do in terms of moderation with mailman11:13
popeyits "set the moderate bit" or "ban"11:13
sabdflghostcube: most like moderation, few like moderating11:13
ghostcubeah ok :)11:13
popeythere do seem to be a diminishing number of people actually using sounder11:14
dholbachhow would you feel about more moderators and n+1 strike model for being moderated for a few weeks? I know that it sounds heavy but it would probably solve the problem :)11:14
popeyas is the case with many Linux based community lists IME11:14
dholbachelmo says there's 438 subscribers on sounder@11:14
popeyok, thats not many11:14
popeythe UK LoCo list has more than that11:14
dholbachI don't think it's as actively advertised as other lists11:15
sabdflwhat is n+1 strike?11:15
dholbachprobably because of its unclear focus :)11:15
popeyfair point11:15
ghostcubesabdfl: not using correct speach or atitudes so after n+1 he gets striekd out ?11:15
ghostcubelike saying 2 times stfu you will be kicked ?11:16
dholbachsabdfl: n+1 was just a random number, but I was envisioning some kind of "3 strikes model" where you'd tell somebody to watch their tone 3 times and mention the  consequences (moderation for a few weeks), and then do it if doesn't help11:16
dholbachghostcube: I don't think that's the language we'd use there :)11:16
ghostcubedholbach: nah just en example11:16
popeyi suspect some of the "worst offenders" would quit in protest11:16
elkyand we will bring out the tiny violins.11:17
popeywell, indeed11:17
elkyI stopped reading it years ago when it became a place-to-link-any-blog-post-ever-that-dissed-ubuntu slash FUDfest. I'd be surprised if there really are 438 people who actually care about it.11:17
ghostcubewhat is the aim of the sounder list by default guys ?11:18
ghostcubeofficial mailing list free for all users to claim anything ?11:18
popey"Anything goes Ubuntu community chit-chat and discussion list"11:19
popeyfrom https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/sounder11:19
popeywhich is fundamentally wrong IMO11:19
* elky winces at the "anything goes" terminology11:19
dholbachI personally don't think it'd be surprising to receive an email that tells me "could you please rephrase your last paragraph a bit" if I fly off the handle in a mailing list post11:19
sabdflthat was fine back in the day, when Ubuntu was tiny11:19
ghostcubeoha long long ago11:19
macosounds like its like the Forums' Backyard (which is gone now) than the Community Cafe (which is how i guess it was intended?)11:19
popeyThe problem with mailing lists is once someone has said something, it's in the archive forever, unless someone has the time/patience to scrub it out11:20
=== Guest78837 is now known as Hobbsee
popeywith forums, posts can be redacted fairly easily11:20
* maco shoves the word "more" into that sentence11:20
macothats true11:20
popeyso the "can you rephrase that" either becomes public in which case you get others jumping on the thread making it worse..11:20
dholbachdoes anybody have any other ideas about how to solve the problem?11:20
sabdflin principle, it's supposed to be a "wise forum for setting the direction of Ubuntu"11:21
* jussi01 has spotted only 3 CC members, do we have quorum or is this unofficial?11:21
sabdflbut i suspect most of the key folks in Ubuntu don't participate, so if we defined it that way, it would fail11:21
popeyjussi01: we dont need quorum to discuss stuff :)11:21
sabdfland worse, set a bad tone for "wise words in Ubuntu land"11:21
macoping me if pleia2 needs to be woken. its not a long distance call for me :)11:21
cjwatsonhas anyone seriously tried to "internally moderate" sounder (i.e. shift the culture to a more respectful tone, without technical means)?11:22
sabdfli'm leaning towards closing it down11:22
sabdfli don't see it playing a positive service, and moderation is work that could also be done elsewhere11:22
elkycjwatson, know any volunteers?11:22
popeyIt doesn't seem to serve much of a useful purpose11:22
cjwatsonI haven't read it for a few months but it was OK when I last read it11:22
sabdflor, work that could generate benefits elsewhere11:22
cjwatsonand actually vaguely interesting at times11:22
cjwatsonbut the traffic was pretty low11:22
cjwatsonelky: those who are objecting to its tone, presumably; I don't have context11:23
sabdflwe've sent a few "please moderate your tone here" emails to the list11:23
sabdflbut since none of us read it regularly...11:23
popeyI do now :S11:23
dholbachthat has changed in recent months: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/ (October 2009: "[ Gzip'd Text 275 KB ]")11:23
cjwatsonI wonder if this is one of those cases where the damage done by closing it is more than the damage done by ignoring it :)11:23
dholbachadmittedly that was a peak11:23
popeycjwatson: I'm not convinced there are enough people who really care if it's there or not11:24
popeya few vocal people, sure.11:24
jussi01Does it not serve a purpose that it lets these people with very vocal items sound off somewhere and not on other lists? (isnt that the point of it?)11:25
dholbachI personally could very well live with it being closed down as it does not serve any purpose and lots of the more interesting posts that inform me of stuff that's going on somewhere else I read in blog posts or announces as well11:25
dholbachbut that wouldn't solve the problem with ubuntu-users@11:25
popeyubuntu-users is probably easier to fix11:26
popeybecause it has a more well defined purpose11:26
popeydholbach: can you ask elmo how many are on -users?11:26
elkyjussi01, i know some people who like to blow stuff up to vent, but i don't necessarily let them do it in my house or to my stuff. I dont see a reason why bad behaviour should be tolerated in a corner just to keep it out of the way.11:26
sabdflpopey: since you read it, do you sense that the tone could be improved just by remaining a positive force (i.e. publicly asking folks to tone it down when their language is unacceptable)?11:27
popeysabdfl: well, I've asked twice now to "be nice" and it's resulted in some massive wandering threads. I can't tell yet if people are actually "being nicer"11:27
cjwatsonpopey: ubuntu-users' problem isn't purpose, it's that it's vast :)11:27
popeynote the big "etiquette" thread11:27
dholbachsabdfl: at least popey, pleia2 and I sent mails there which resulted in even more discussion, parts of it about "does the CoC apply to me, I'm not an Ubuntu member", etc.11:28
sabdfllooks to me like a list that only exists because it existed11:28
dholbachpopey: 472011:28
popeywould it be worthwhile asking the community what they want?11:29
sabdflbetter to ask if they are willing to moderate it11:29
sabdflthey WANT everything :-)11:29
popeywell, indeed, but I'm all out of spherical lunar devices atop thin wooden poles.11:30
sabdflmy vote is to close down sounders if we can't find folks to moderate it who are not already hugely committed, i.e. sounders leaders, not other folks who are already doing a huge amount11:30
sabdflpopey: will you chair the rest of the conversation?11:31
dholbachthanks sabdfl11:31
sabdfli think we can make a recommendation in email to the rest of the CC on these two items, with the statement that we'll act on the recommendation in a week unless it's a problem for a majority of the CC11:31
dholbachsounds good to me11:31
popeyWe already have the code of conduct and a page describing mailing list etiquette..11:32
dholbachso the topics would be 1) some kind of moderation guidelines? 2) future of sounder? 3) which other mailing lists probably need some kind of guidance?11:33
popey..we could mail both lists and ask for volunteers to moderate their lists11:33
popeyOk, so we come up with a simple set of guidelines on the wiki?11:33
popeyAsk for contributions from the members of the list, or we construct that?11:34
dholbachI think it's good to have a basis for the discussion11:34
popeyI fear design by committee11:34
popeyok, so we start with a framework11:34
popeyand ask for contributions to it, and volunteers to implement it11:34
* dholbach nods11:34
popeyif we get no volunteers, sounder gets shutdown?11:34
dholbachto me that sounds reasonable11:35
dholbachwe should go and see if the majority of the CC is behind that11:35
popeyso, the same for -users?11:36
dholbach+1 :)11:36
=== Flare-Laptop is now known as Flare183
dholbachI think that'd fall under 3) of the open questions I mentioned above :)11:36
popeygiven -users has 10x the number of users, and a massively higher signal:noise ratio, we would _suspect_ that there would be more people who might volunteer?11:36
dholbachyes, that's what I think too11:37
popeyso we start with -sounder alone as the blueprint, and then roll to other lists, with -users being the likely 2nd one to hit?11:37
elkymake sure you recommend that the unexpecting victims use a separate email address. :P11:37
Pendulumcan I ask the obvious question of, what if the only volunteers are the ones causing the problems?11:37
elkyPendulum, then the moderation will fail.11:38
Pendulum(less likely on -users, but I could see it happening on -sounder)11:38
dholbachPendulum: we can always redact the decision11:38
Flare183When does the Community Council meeting start?11:38
popeyFlare183: 35 mins ago11:38
elkyFlare183, half an hour ago11:38
Flare183elky: Still going on?11:38
elkyFlare183, indeed.11:38
macoyou walked into it11:38
Flare183phew then then I didn't miss it11:39
dholbachis there anything that needs decision apart from that?11:39
popeydon't think so11:39
popeyanyone else have any further comments?11:39
* Flare183 would like to see if he can become a Ubuntu member11:40
popeyFlare183: the cc doesn't do that anymore11:40
popeythe regional membership boards do11:40
macoFlare183: found a year old wiki page somewhere?11:41
popeyOk, so action items:-11:42
popey* Develop guidelines for ubuntu mailing lists moderation11:42
popey* Run that past the CC11:42
popey* Run that past the community11:42
popey* Ask for volunteers on sounder to implement it11:43
popey* Look for other lists to implement it11:43
dholbach(* Make a decision about the future of sounder@?)11:43
popeyshould that go at the top?11:43
popeyor should we look for moderators first?11:44
popeyi.e. if we had a bunch of people willing to moderate, would that not remove the need to shut it down?11:44
dholbachalthough I think that having good guidelines will probably give more hope to the current situation and influence the decision :)11:44
jussi01there is a little bit here: http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists/etiquette11:45
dholbachyeah, that needs fleshing out11:45
popeyok, so when we ask for volunteers, we say that if there are none, or they are not of sufficient quality then we will/may shut the list down?11:45
cjwatsonfor moderation: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelModeration may be worth comparing. (But ubuntu-devel doesn't have particularly significant social problems; the moderation issues there are simply making sure it's on-topic.)11:45
dholbachthat'd be my proposal too, let's see if we can get majority11:45
popey(thats a specific sounder requirement, not of all lists)11:46
dholbachthanks cjwatson11:46
popeyOk, anything else?11:46
dholbachnot from me11:46
popeyAnyone else?11:46
* dholbach will update the TeamReport11:47
* popey will mail the cc with a summary11:47
dholbachthanks a bunch popey11:47
popeyunless anyone has any other business for us..11:48
dholbachthanks everyone11:48
czajkowskipopey: *hugs*11:48
popeyhi liel12:15
lielWill EMEA meeting today  be short?12:22
lielI see it takes only 1 hour, but it usually took more time...12:30
liel*it will take12:30
MootBotMeeting started at 07:00. The chair is persia.13:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]13:00
* GrueMaster reports in.13:00
* asac waves13:00
persiaWelcome to this week's Mobile Meeting13:00
persiaAgenda is up13:00
persia[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/2009121513:01
asacJamieBennett: plars: dyfet`: there? ;)13:01
* StevenK shores13:01
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/2009121513:01
* asac knew that stevenk would be here ;)13:01
plarsasac: yep13:01
persiaOK.  First up is action items.13:01
persia[TOPIC] Action Item review from last week13:01
MootBotNew Topic:  Action Item review from last week13:01
asacfirst item was done13:02
persiadavidm and ogra to investigate mksquashfs issue on pegatron board13:02
* ogra secretly lurks doing a coffeebreak from housekeeping13:02
asacyes. we found that mksquashfs isnt ready for all latest compiler flags13:02
asacso we went back to -marm13:02
persiaasac to discuss work items/burndown/reporting for liquid with ian_brasil13:02
asaci followed up with ian_brasil ... he added work items13:02
asacthey ar enow tracked on our chart afaict13:02
asaci have to approve his spec still, but take that as an action for htis week13:02
persia[ACTION] asac to approve outstanding liquid specs13:03
MootBotACTION received:  asac to approve outstanding liquid specs13:03
asacsince its not really in the form we would like it13:03
persiaOK.  Moving on.13:03
persia[TOPIC] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html13:03
MootBotNew Topic:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html13:03
persia[LINK] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html13:03
MootBotLINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html13:03
=== dmart_ is now known as dmart
persiaThis doesn't look so ideal.13:04
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JamieBennettbut I think a bunch (especially from me) will be changed to done by the end of the week13:04
persiaLets see what's blocking, in reverse order of completion level.13:04
plarswould be nice to make some good progress on that before the break too13:04
=== Guest66760 is now known as dmart
persiaStevenK: You're at 0, but for a very low number of items.  Any blockers?13:04
asacthere are quite a few low hanging fruits on the suspend-resume testing spec13:04
StevenKpersia: Yes; https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~stevenk/launchpad/netbook-cron/+merge/1611513:05
asacGrueMaster: sorry to bug again, but could you go through the "documentation" work items for the suspend resume testing spec so we get below the trendline again?13:05
persiaExcellent.  Issue identified.13:05
StevenKBut that is handled by the LP folks, so I have to sit tight, but it blocks my livecd-rootfs upload13:06
GrueMasterI'll try to get on it later today (during living hours).13:06
asacGrueMaster: yeah. we dont want you to do that before coffee ;)13:06
persiadmart: You're also at 0.  Any issues?13:06
persiaWe'll catch up.13:07
asacpersia: he has a few items on the lightweight browser spec13:07
asacaccording to my books13:07
asacthough those are blocked by not yet having chromium13:07
persiaasac: Cool.  Thanks.  Where are we on chromium?13:08
asacbuild works, upstream landed another set of arm packages. waiting for new builds to finish13:08
persiaSounds like progress so dmart can get unblocked soon.13:08
persiaGrueMaster: You said you're going to comment on stuff when you're actually awake, right?13:09
asacevery biuld might be a good build ;) ... i hope we get that working asap13:09
StevenKasac: I have to upload it? Since according to the work items, it's me13:09
GrueMasterNo, I said I'd work on the suspend/resume test plan when I'm awake.13:09
persiaGrueMaster: OK.  Anything blocking you that keeps you at 2%?13:09
asacStevenK: you have to do the archive admin part. you could start on reviewing licensing etc.13:10
GrueMasterI've been focusing on the lsb conversion (which I have good progress to report).13:10
StevenKasac: Oh, that task. Excuse me, I need to find a rusty knife.13:10
plarsGrueMaster: let me know if you need help with anything13:10
asacStevenK: then we file issues upstream and if they are not illegal get a good faith exception from TB for inclusion if we see there is progress13:10
asacStevenK: the package includes some high level summary tool which should help13:11
persiaGrueMaster: OK.13:11
asacjust sync with me or fta after the meeting13:11
persiaasac: You're at 7%.  Anything blocking you?13:11
asacor tomorrow (guess its late)13:11
asacpersia: yes. the chromium build working13:11
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asacthe other thing is firefox 3.6 in the archive, that will happen soonish13:11
persiaOK.  That's two people blocked on that.  At least we already have progress :)13:12
asacbut besides from the task itself blocking me i am not blocked ;)13:12
=== dmart_ is now known as dmart
persiaEveryone else seems to be above trend, so I'll just ask if anyone has some blocking issue they want to raise.13:12
asacwe are blocked on dove13:13
dmartpersia: "You're also at 0. Any issues?": Can you explain what you mean?13:13
JamieBennettI would like comment on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/CasperSpeedup by more knowledgeable people if possible13:13
asachad a call with michael this morning13:13
asache wants us to do some preparations so he can start right away13:13
persiadmart: Looking at http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html, you're currently reported as having completed 0 of your 3 workitems.13:13
asacyes. those are all related to benchmarking13:13
asacof browsers13:13
persiadmart: asac explained that you're blocked on having a chromium build ready to benchmark..13:13
asacthats blocked on me13:13
=== fader|away is now known as fader_
asacJamieBennett: can you reproduce the slowness locally?13:14
asace.g. by running debconf-communicate13:15
asacbefore disabling all debconf stuff on arm, i would like to narrow down where the time gets lost13:15
JamieBennettasac: I haven't tried to do individual debconf-communicate calls yet13:15
asacyeah. i would think looking closer there is the next step13:15
asacas making this decently quick will give us a notable boost i expect13:15
JamieBennettOK, we can talk implementation bits after the meeting.13:16
persiaOK.  Anything else about the alpha-2 chart?13:16
JamieBennettWe got a code drop on 2D launcher13:16
dmartI was not aware of the actions assigned to me... looks like if you're not subscribed to a blueprint you never see this info.13:16
JamieBennettso that should be good to go now13:16
asacdmart: hmm. sorry about that. thought we discussed that ;)13:17
asaclet me subscribe you13:17
persiaJamieBennett: Cool.  Could you update that task on the tracker?13:17
asacdmart: but i would have pinged you anyway when the bits are available13:17
JamieBennettpersia: will do after I've reviewed its actually what we wanted ;)13:17
persiaheh :)13:17
asacdmart: subscribed13:17
persiaOK.  Moving on.13:18
dmartReleasing the browser benchmark is ongoing; also there is not firefox for lucid yet.13:18
asacok one thing13:18
persiaOK.  Not moving on :)13:18
asacwould be great if everyone checks if there are low hanging fruits and get those done13:18
asacwe will have holiday season so being below the trendline is probably the onlyt hing how we can make it to close to zero13:18
dmartAll, are there any other actions on me I don't know about?13:19
asacalso if you are done with your tasks, dont refrain from jumping on work itesms assigned to others13:19
asacjust sync with them and help out ;)13:19
StevenKasac: I'm working on stuff, but the rename involves touching lots of stuff13:19
asacStevenK: thats desktop?13:19
StevenKasac: Nah, the UNR -> UNE rename13:20
persiadmart: The benchmarking ones are the only ones I see in even the full lucid report.13:20
asacStevenK: right. isnt that currently done in the desktop team officially?13:20
dmartOK, thanks13:20
asacStevenK: if its not, do you want to add more work items to the mobile-*une spec?13:20
davidmasac, we are on the hook for the name change13:20
asacdavidm: right. i know that StevenK does that. just wasnt sure if its tracked as part of mobile or desktop13:21
asace.g. where the reporting goes to etc.13:21
davidmAh good point13:21
asaci am fine to have it in this meeting. just not sure13:21
StevenKI was thinking both davidm and Rick. But that's me13:21
asaci would suggest that StevenK attends the desktop Asia meeting13:21
asacand gives us a summary of status here13:22
asacwhats the blueprint for the rename?13:22
asacisnt that a desktop-lucid- one?13:22
StevenKOne-line summary: Blocked on Launchpad changes, then livecd-rootfs, cdimage changes and then unrds -> unds13:22
StevenKasac: desktop-lucid-une13:23
asacStevenK: one question for you: how will we switch our arm images from desktop to une (which i guess is what has to happen for the 2d launcher)13:23
asacdo you have that on your list? or some other plan?13:23
StevenKasac: That is for after the rename, and can be done by twiddling stuff on antimony13:24
persiaMight benefit from listed workitems, just to make the graph less bumpy.13:24
asacStevenK: ok. is that tracked as a work item in the mobile-arm une? otherwise we might want to add that as a step13:24
StevenKasac: It should be13:25
* StevenK twiddles13:25
persiaOK.  Are we done with alpha-2 work item status?13:25
asacmaybe one more item before the "initial seed changes" one13:25
persiaIt appears nobody added any special items to the agenda, so on to standing items.13:26
persia[TOPIC] Lucid work item status13:26
MootBotNew Topic:  Lucid work item status13:26
persia[LINK] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html13:26
MootBotLINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html13:26
asacsame boat here i guess13:26
persiaThis is just a big picture of what we saw before.13:26
persiaAnyone have any items that show up here that already have concerns or should be moved to alpha-2 ?13:27
asacmove to alpha-2? ;) ... we already have enough to do for that ;)13:27
asacwe have some blockage on canola evaluation ...13:28
persiaasac: You never know: maybe someone is going *really* fast, and moving completed items to alpha-2 would help the trendline :)13:28
persiaBut that's scheduled for later.  Do we expect problems already, or is it just a later task?13:28
asacbut the canonla2 thing will make progress this week afaiu13:28
JamieBennettdyfet: you have that as one of your tasks last week (canola)13:29
JamieBennettdid you review?13:29
persiaOK.  Let's review next week then, and see if we can bring it forward as completed.13:29
asacpersia: its not urgent. but we need to know if we go for it13:29
asacas it requires work intensive development13:29
asacto get in a suitable state for us13:29
persiaOK.  Anything else for lucid workitems?13:29
asacnext week we need to see progress on that13:29
JamieBennettasac: I'll be looking at Canola this week13:30
persiaMoving on then.13:30
persia[TOPIC] ARM Image status13:30
dyfetJamieBennett: I was waiting for it to be ready, so I will review also this week...sorry, having connectivity issues today...13:30
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Image status13:30
persiaThere was a crash in mandb that is being investigated, so we don't have any current images.13:30
persiaWe should have some tomorrow or the next day (depending on your local timezone).13:31
asaclast imx51 image produced works oob afaik13:31
ograwe had the same crash during A113:31
asachowever, the image builder got stuck as it seems13:31
asaclast image produced was 13th Dec13:31
ogra(no, i'm not here ... you're hallucinating)13:31
asacthat one should just work13:31
persiaAnyone test the 20091213 dove image?13:31
asacGrueMaster: plars: so some testing food for you ;)13:31
plarsstill broken13:31
plarssame errors as before13:31
persiaOK.  So we're at 50% and don't have current builds.13:32
asacncommander will be back soonish13:32
persiaI'll take an action to watch those and make sure we're in better shape next week.13:32
asacthats when we will do the serious evaluation13:32
GrueMasterI can't do dove testing and lsb conversion at the same time.13:32
persia[ACTION] persia to watch the builds and make sure they happen and are testable13:32
MootBotACTION received:  persia to watch the builds and make sure they happen and are testable13:32
asacGrueMaster: imx51 has images13:32
asacthat work13:32
persiaMoving on.13:32
asacthats what i referred to above13:32
persia[TOPIC] Any Other Business13:32
MootBotNew Topic:  Any Other Business13:32
persiaAnyone have any last-minute items to raise for discussion?13:33
GrueMasterJust wanted to give an update to the lsb conversion13:33
asacGrueMaster: go ahead13:33
persia[TOPIC] LSB conversion status13:33
MootBotNew Topic:  LSB conversion status13:33
persiaGrueMaster: Go.13:33
GrueMasterOne test suite has converted so far.  OLVER tests ran overnight.  5693 tests passed.  66 failed.13:34
asacGrueMaster: did you push your work to some bzr branch or something?13:34
GrueMasterOf the failures, 24 are new.13:34
asace.g. the patches etc.13:34
GrueMasterNot yet.  That is the next step.13:34
dyfetI remember those :)13:34
asacGrueMaster: what failsures are those?13:34
asacGrueMaster: ok great.13:34
JamieBennettI have sent a mail to the @ubuntu-mobile list inviting the community to report weekly work they are doing just like we do13:34
GrueMasterI don't know what the failures are.  I'm looking at the results as we type.13:35
asacGrueMaster: so 24 new means. that 24 tests that work with karmic libs are now broken?13:35
GrueMasterno.  24 failures that the test suite didn't find in  the central LSB database.13:35
GrueMaster41 failures are known test issues.13:36
GrueMasterI.e. in the database.13:36
persiaGrueMaster: Will your results be available on a wiki page or something for investigation?13:36
asacGrueMaster: for us most important is the karmic vs. lucid comparision13:36
asaci wouldnt assign too high prio to the 24 new failures (at least not block the progress)13:37
GrueMasterI can look into posting this for those that are interested.13:37
GrueMasterAs to the 24 failures, I need to make sure that they aren't due to something I missed.13:37
persia[ACTION] GrueMaster to post LSB test failures for investigation13:37
MootBotACTION received:  GrueMaster to post LSB test failures for investigation13:37
persiaGrueMaster: Anything else about LSB conversion?13:37
GrueMasterThat's it so far.13:38
persiaJamieBennett: You injected something interesting there:13:38
asacso on image front lamont now killed the hung mandb process ... so hopefully we get new images latest today13:38
persia[TOPIC] Weeky Reports13:38
MootBotNew Topic:  Weeky Reports13:38
* JamieBennett reposts I have sent a mail to the @ubuntu-mobile list inviting the community to report weekly work they are doing just like we do13:38
JamieBennettCommunity members are encouraged to add to the weekly page13:39
persiaAnything else about that, or is it all in the email?13:39
asacJamieBennett: thanksfor that.13:39
JamieBennettmostly in the mail but if you have a cool Ubuntu based mobile project consider editing the wiki page each week13:40
persiaOK.  Anyone else have anything they want to raise?13:40
StevenKCan we visit a better time for the meeting? Starting at midnight and finishing at 1am is starting to hurt.13:40
GrueMasterStevenK: maybe 5am for you would be better?13:40
asacfrom what i understood there is no better time.13:40
StevenK5am is worse13:41
persiaI've run a bunch of calculations about meeting times, and strongly believe that 13:00, 20:00 and 21:00 are the best year-round times for the majority of the Ubuntu community.13:41
asacor do we want to move to a rotating model?13:41
ograStevenK, i'm just renovating my basement, want to rent a room ? (that would solve your prob once and for all) :)13:41
persiaPersonally, I don't really like 20:00.13:41
StevenKogra: Except that I don't speak the language13:41
persia13:00 is annoying for UTC-8 and UTC+11 and excludes UTC-11 and UTC+1213:41
davidm21:00 UTC works for me :-)13:42
=== Guest73310 is now known as alsroot
persia21:00 is annoying for UTC+813:42
ograStevenK, pfft, minor details13:42
StevenKYeah, 2100 UTC is 6am for +813:42
persia[TOPIC] Meeting Times.13:42
MootBotNew Topic:  Meeting Times.13:42
persiaStevenK: 5am.13:42
StevenKOh, of course13:42
StevenKMy brain is still coded to think you're -2 hours from me13:43
persia22:00 is 0:00 in UTC+2 (European Summer)13:43
persiaI'm not in +8 :)13:43
StevenKWhich means if I don't get it, they do13:43
persiaWell, someone needs to get it.13:43
* JamieBennett volunteers StevenK ;)13:44
* GrueMaster has it currently.13:44
StevenKIt means I tend to sleep in a bit on Wednesday, since I don't get to bed until 1:20am or so13:44
persiaWell, you both do (5:00 & 0:00 as a result of a 19-hour time difference)13:44
StevenKLet's just agree timezones suck and move on13:45
persiaStevenK: Would you prefer 21:00 ?13:45
persiaI like that idea :)13:45
persia[AGREED] timezones suck13:45
MootBotAGREED received:  timezones suck13:45
persiaOK.  Anyone else have a topic ?13:45
dmartI think there was an outstanding problem with alignment faults on Dove?13:45
asacso no changes?13:45
dmartplars and asac know about this13:45
persia[TOPIC] alignment faults on Dove13:45
MootBotNew Topic:  alignment faults on Dove13:45
asacyes. there seem to be two issues:13:46
ubottuUbuntu bug 494831 in linux-mvl-dove "Alignment trap/Unhandled fault errors on boot" [Critical,In progress]13:46
asac1st. current kernel doesnt even boot13:46
asac1nd. when we still had a working kernel (two uploads ago), ncommander reported sigills for everything13:46
asacso today i tlaked to michael (ncommander) and we agreed that we first should narrow down why the current kernel suddenyl doesnt even boot anymore13:47
asacdmart: if you have input that makes this approach void, let us know ;)13:47
plarsasac: well, it boots13:47
plarscan get as far as a shell13:47
dmartNot really... it may not even be related to the alignment faults.  Is the kernel being built as -marm?13:47
plarsjust that pretty much anything you run after that spews the alignment faults and sigills13:48
dmartplars: can we get a coredump from a faulting binary?13:48
asac"* Starting init crypto disks...13:48
asacAlignment trap: not handling instruction ed9f9b93 at [<000626f2>]13:48
asacUnhandled fault: alignment exception (0x011) at 0x00062942"13:48
asacisnt that in kernel?13:48
asacoh ... ericm posted a patch13:48
asac12 minutes ago13:48
ubottuUbuntu bug 494831 in linux-mvl-dove "Alignment trap/Unhandled fault errors on boot" [Critical,In progress]13:48
plarsdmart: will try, so far my attempts to get anything useful have failed13:48
ogra"init" really doesnt sound like kernel13:49
JamieBennettIsn't there a patch now?13:49
JamieBennett(just got a mail)13:49
dmartAre we still building the mvl kernel with -marm?13:49
asacJamieBennett: read a few lines above ;)13:49
asacgood question13:49
asacdmart: afaik yes.13:49
plarsah, nice timing eric!13:49
asacok cool. so we have a way forward it seems13:50
ograbtw, why is dove still at .31 ?13:50
asacgood question13:50
asaclet me take that as an action13:50
asacpersia: ^^ (figure out why we are still at .31)13:51
dmartBe sure to ping me if that patch doesn't resolve the problem13:51
asacalso add an action for dyfet to do a test kernel build with that patch13:51
persia[ACTION] asac to figure out why dove still uses a 2.6.31 kernel13:51
MootBotACTION received:  asac to figure out why dove still uses a 2.6.31 kernel13:51
asacdiscussed with ncommander that i t would be good if dyfet could prepare a kernel13:52
persia[action] dyfet to prepare a test kernel build with the patch in bug 494831 (comment 7)13:52
ubottuLaunchpad bug 494831 in linux-mvl-dove "Alignment trap/Unhandled fault errors on boot" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/49483113:52
MootBotACTION received:  dyfet to prepare a test kernel build with the patch in bug 494831 (comment 7)13:52
persiaOK.  Anything else about alignment faults on dove?13:52
plarsimx51 is still on -31 too, no?13:52
asacyes. imx51 will stay on 3113:52
ograplars, yes, thats wanted13:52
asacthat was discussed/planned13:52
asachtough we will get a new kernel13:53
plarsright, I was thinking the plan was the same for dove for some reason13:53
asacusing freescale kernel directly rather than our stuff13:53
plarsmaybe I am mixing them up13:53
* plars hits the caffeine button a few more times13:53
asacdove -> .3213:53
asacimx51 -> .3113:53
asacthats the current plan13:53
persiaUm, I have a topic then.13:54
davidmFreescale to stay on .3113:54
persia[topic] imx51 kernels13:54
MootBotNew Topic:  imx51 kernels13:54
davidmMarvell to move to .3213:54
persiaSo, under which workitems are the activities of documenting all the subsystems we want backported from .32 into the imx51 kernel?13:54
asacpersia: we only had an informational blueprint13:55
asacpersia: also add an action for me to check with kernel team about their pre-upload testing. e.g. can we prevent that we end up with a non-bootable kernel in future etc.13:55
asacpersia: i think the subsystem backporting was supposed to be done on-demand13:55
asacogra: ?13:55
ograwell, we surely need aufs, apparmor etc13:55
persiaOK.  I just fear that we haven't identified the set of subsystems to backport.13:55
persiaAlso, anything needed for the new boot system.13:56
ograas well as fast boot changes13:56
ograseems thats documented nowhere13:56
persiaAnd the standard kernel/userspare hardware stuff, like ALSA, ASoC, bluetooth, lirc, etc.13:56
ograpreferably all the improvements that are done in house by kernel or foundations team in the .32 tree should be backported (might be an utopic wish though)13:57
asaci would like to not add all the ubuntu sauce on top of it13:57
asacat least prefer it ... ;)13:57
persiaWe need some of the sauce though.13:57
ograwell, we need the bootspeed stuff13:57
persiaIt's mostly a matter of identifying *what* needs to be backported.13:57
ograas well as aufs and apparmor13:57
asacyes. however, i was tolded alsa isnt an issue13:57
persiaWhoever told you that doesn't read ALSA bug reports :)13:57
ograalsa lives out of tree afaik13:57
asacsame for other stuff (usually its userspace that must not be out of date)13:57
asacpersia: dtchen ;)13:58
ograwell, often its userspace that needs certain new kernel features too13:58
asacyes. but he assured me that its not the case for alsa/pulseaudio13:58
persiaWell, then alsa did get out-of-tree.  It didn't used to be that way.13:58
asaci can reconfirm that13:58
ograi.e. we'll totally lose on faster booting without cshurbi's patches13:58
GrueMasteralso dtchen works on x86 alsa (unless someone has given him a babbage and dove recently).13:58
persiaSo, rather than rehashing here (we're nearly out of time).13:59
persiaCan we just have an action to update somewhere?13:59
asacGrueMaster: right. i expect there to be close to zero patches13:59
asacfor arm in our tree ;)13:59
persia[action] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere.13:59
MootBotACTION received:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere.13:59
ograright, there only the device drivers count and we get these from FSL13:59
GrueMasterI'd like to see at least one patch for babbage - to make audio work.13:59
asacpersia: right. thanks13:59
ograGrueMaster, ??13:59
persiaOK.  Anything else that *needs* to be now?14:00
ograGrueMaster, wrks since ages ?14:00
plarsGrueMaster: mine works14:00
asaci think we are fine14:00
persiaTHanks then.14:00
MootBotMeeting finished at 08:00.14:00
asacso one more thing. in case you dont see me and need me urgently during holiday14:00
asacjust call my cell14:00
=== TuxPurple_ is now known as TuxPurple
* ogra goes back to sniff wet paint14:00
asacfirst ping me here ... i will check in the evenings usually14:00
asacogra: get a mask ;)14:00
ograpfft ... less fun14:00
asacor send an SMS14:00
* ogra giggles madly14:00
asacogra: enjoy!!14:01
ogradoing ! :)14:01
asacogra: and do some nordic waling14:01
=== WaVeR` is now known as WaVeR
cjwatsonmdz,kees,Keybuk: TB?15:01
keescjwatson: ya beat me to it.15:01
keesany pittis or sabdfls around?15:01
mdzcjwatson: hi15:01
Keybukcjwatson: I'm here15:01
cjwatsonkees: wiki says you're chairing15:01
keescjwatson: yup15:01
Keybukslightly distracted by fixing the carnage kees caused <g>15:01
cjwatsonI poked sabdfl on #canonical15:01
mdzsabdfl just returned to his desk and sat down15:01
keesKeybuk: what carnage?  (I just woke up...)15:02
mdzkees: #startmeeting?15:02
keesok, that's everyone, I think.15:02
MootBotMeeting started at 09:02. The chair is kees.15:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]15:02
kees[topic] review action items15:03
MootBotNew Topic:  review action items15:03
kees * cjwatson checking on IS RT #36139 to add devel-permissions15:03
kees * Scott to redraft Units policy to address Scott's and Matt's concerns and clean up language15:03
mdz(previous meeting minutes)15:03
kees[link] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000654.html15:03
MootBotLINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000654.html15:03
keesKeybuk: any updates on the units policy?15:04
Keybuknone, I haven't had a chance to get to it15:04
kees[action] Scott to redraft Units policy to address Scott's and Matt's concerns and clean up language15:04
MootBotACTION received:  Scott to redraft Units policy to address Scott's and Matt's concerns and clean up language15:04
mdzshould this be redelegated?15:04
Keybukif someone else has a few more free cycles than me, they are more than welcome15:04
mdzScott doesn't seem to have the bandwidth, so maybe someone else could work on it15:04
mdzit's been punted the past few meetings15:04
keeshard to say, it was specifically Keybuk's issues yes?15:04
keesin that redelegation makes it tricky if Keybuk doesn't like the result.  :)  but it would be nice to move it forward.15:05
mdzwe could ask for help15:05
mdzI just don't want to see an action carried from meeting to meeting without an expectation that it can be completed15:05
mdzit's bad meeting mojo15:05
pittiwhat were the remaining points again?15:06
mdzit's all in the TB archives, I'd have to dig itup15:06
pitti(it seemed like a ten-minute thing the last time we talked about it)15:06
mdzI said: "Looks fine to me, except for the "must add an option [to all command-linetools]" bit."15:06
mdzwhich was clearly unreasonable15:07
* pitti actually likes that15:07
bdalefyi, all, I'm on the way out the door for a customer meeting and so won't be able to participate today15:07
Keybukpitti: find a free character in ps? :p15:07
pittiotherwise we'd be stuck with ls etc. showing the "wrong" thing forever; and conveniently they already have --si switches15:07
keesbdale: no worries, thanks for letting us know.  :)15:07
mdzpitti: there are a *lot* of command line programs in Ubuntu, and there is no way we will patch them all to support a --si flag15:08
pittimdz: no, but we wouldn't stop people from adding them individually either (through upstream, etc.), would we?15:08
Keybukpitti: the policy in the current working requires us to add them15:08
mdzpitti: no, I wouldn't think so15:08
pittiit's certainly not something we should focus on15:08
sabdflhave we socialised this with the Debian TC?15:08
keessabdfl: the units policy in general or the --si flag in particular?  (neither I think)15:09
mdzpitti: I don't want to create a policy which immediately generates hundreds or thousands of violations15:09
keeswhat about weakening the language to 'should' instead of 'must' ?15:09
pittimdz: so it should say "should" perhaps, to be a recommendation15:09
mdzthat would be better15:09
mdzkees: this is becoming an agenda topic in its own right, under the guise of an action review ;-)15:10
sabdflkees: both15:10
keesmdz: agreed.15:10
pittiOTOH that's exactly what the policy is meant to do, so these "hundreds of violations" wouldn't just be an artifact15:11
Keybukmdz: if only my day job weren't so demanding of my time <g>15:11
keesok, I see two things todo now on it.15:11
kees1) actually get the policy finalized15:11
kees2) present it to debian tc15:11
cjwatsonpitti: the policy was meant to handle user-facing things, not really command-line programs15:11
cjwatsonwe're trying to avoid having to deal with the latter, more than anything :)15:11
mdz[topic] units policy15:11
kees[topic] units policy15:12
MootBotNew Topic:  units policy15:12
sabdfli think it's fine to aim to prioritize user-facing things, and accept a long tail of violations that are not widely exposed15:12
pitticjwatson: sure15:12
keesmdz: do you want to take the language portion?  it sounds like we're all agreed on the meaning of the cmdline portion.15:12
keesI can take the Debian TC part, via bdale.15:13
mdzkees: the language wrt15:13
mdzrequirements on command line programs?15:13
keesmdz: right.  it seems to be the main sticking point on the policy.15:13
mdzkees: OK15:14
kees[action] kees to present Units policy to Debian TC via bdale15:14
MootBotACTION received:  kees to present Units policy to Debian TC via bdale15:14
kees[action] mdz to fix language wrt cmdline meaning in Unit policy15:14
MootBotACTION received:  mdz to fix language wrt cmdline meaning in Unit policy15:14
keesok to move on?15:14
kees[topic] action review15:14
MootBotNew Topic:  action review15:14
kees * Colin to clarify trademark/license distinction on licensing policy15:14
cjwatsondone, second para of http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/licensing15:14
kees[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda15:15
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda15:15
kees[topic] Status of ARM port vs. archive publishing (slangasek, mdz)15:15
MootBotNew Topic:  Status of ARM port vs. archive publishing (slangasek, mdz)15:15
cjwatsonuh, we had more actions15:15
keesoh whoops, sorry15:15
kees[topic] action review take 315:16
MootBotNew Topic:  action review take 315:16
kees * cjwatson to create a wiki reference for development teams to participate in the reorg15:16
mdzkees: er, it looks like the language I took issue with in the policy has been fixed already ;-)15:16
cjwatsondone, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation, would appreciate review15:16
keesmdz: easy action item.  :)15:16
mdz[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation15:16
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation15:16
cjwatsonspecifically there was one item there that Scott remembered but I didn't, so I'd like to check it15:16
cjwatsonbut I added an item for this on the agenda, let's clear the actions first15:17
kees * ScottK to revise Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy proposal based on TB meeting discussion15:17
kees[link] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy15:17
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy15:17
keesit's not clear to me if this happened yet15:18
cjwatsonno edits since 2009-11-0515:19
keesright, so, not done yet.15:19
mdzScottK: when would be a good time to revisit this?15:19
keesI will check in with ScottK later today when he's unidle15:19
kees[ACTION] kees to follow up with ScottK on Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy updates15:20
MootBotACTION received:  kees to follow up with ScottK on Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy updates15:20
kees * sabdfl to update LP/wiki/www to reflect the actual term length for TB15:20
keesthat's done, I think?15:20
kees * cjwatson to nudge RT 3542815:20
cjwatsondone, and closed the bug15:20
keesok.  anything I missed before I go to next topic?15:20
sabdfli think i marked it fix-committed, if you're happy we can mark it fix-released15:20
cjwatsonsabdfl: it's fix-released15:21
keessabdfl: when I was writing up the notes from the TB meeting that I was on vacation for I flipped it from committed to released.15:21
cjwatsonkees: nothing I see, let's carry on15:22
keesok... for real:15:22
kees[topic] Status of ARM port vs. archive publishing (slangasek, mdz)15:22
MootBotNew Topic:  Status of ARM port vs. archive publishing (slangasek, mdz)15:22
keesslangasek: unidle?15:22
mdzthis is about Subject: armel in lucid: supported architectures vs. ports15:22
cjwatsonelmo's comment was that while this is technically possible the numbers are such that he would much rather we didn't (we'll lose quite a few mirrors); he said that if there's a load issue he can bring up some specialised mirrors15:23
keesright. afaik, it was now to elmo?15:23
mdzi.e. the fact that while armel is maintained, supported, blessed, etc. similar to i386 and amd64, it is on ports, while they are on archive15:23
mdzand this is seen to be inconsistent15:23
cjwatsonI don't think it's a load issue, I think it's essentially just a consistency/aesthetic issue15:23
mdzI pointed out that there was some ambiguity in the semantics of ports, and elmo said that cjwatson was writing a document I think15:23
cjwatsonI took an action in the platform/IS review meeting to write such a document, though haven't yet15:23
mdzto me, the important distinction of ports vs. archive is mirroring15:24
mdzand the mirroring configuration is perfectly appropriate for armel15:24
sabdfli think we can forego ARM mirrors15:24
cjwatsonwhich would basically be a public-facing document describing the meanings of archive vs. ports, cdimage vs. releases, etc. that we can point confused people to15:24
mdzso I think it should be left where it is, but the semantics should be documented15:24
sabdflwe can create dedicated bandwidth for *our* ARM mirrors if ARM folks feel hard done by15:24
cjwatsonsabdfl: right, elmo said the same; although I don't think that's where this discussion came from15:24
keescjwatson: shall I register an action for you for that doc?15:25
cjwatsonkees: yes please15:25
persiaIs it not also possible for interested external parties to create ARM mirrors (or arbitrary ports mirrors) if they desire?15:25
kees[action] cjwatson to document meanings of archive vs. ports, cdimage vs. releases, etc.15:25
keesso, with my security team hat on, which releases of armel are considered canonical-supported?  karmic and later?15:26
keesand did mootbot die?15:26
pittihowever, it would potentially entail getting bug spam if the team doesn't have a contact address15:38
mdzcjwatson: I don't recall previous discussion on that point, but I think it's a good idea15:38
cjwatsonbut it's not one that we've enforced so far15:38
cjwatsonpitti: ubuntu-core-dev does15:38
pitticjwatson: I meant if e. g. kubuntu-dev doesn't have a contact address15:38
cjwatsonpitti: adding ubuntu-core-dev to the team won't change bug spam15:38
cjwatsonor at worst it'll all land on ubuntu-reviews@15:38
pitti^ ah, due to -core-dev's contact address, right15:38
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation15:38
Datadthats cool15:38
pittiit's not unusual to subscribe such a team to a bug, etc.15:38
cjwatsonso if everyone's happy with that, I'll mail the teams that are delegated so far to ask them to make that change15:38
pittibut all in all I'm also for having core-dev as a member, to mirror the permission reality and make bzr branches work15:38
cjwatsonok, I'll take care of that15:39
pittiubuntu-desktop is okay, kubuntu-dev needs core-dev added15:39
cjwatson[ACTION] cjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places15:39
kees[ACTION] cjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places15:39
cjwatson[ACTION] cjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added15:39
kees[ACTION] cjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added15:40
keesok, next topic?15:40
keesScottK: around for Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy?15:40
RiddellI can answer for that15:40
Riddellit's waiting on a policy from upstream for minor point release updates15:40
kees[topic] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy15:41
Riddellupstream has one but it's never been written down15:41
Riddellso I started that conversation with upstream and have a draft written down15:41
keesRiddell: ok, cool.  is there any kind of ETA?15:41
Riddellweek or two?  (but then new years get in the way)15:41
keeswe'll keep this on the agenda then for next meeting.15:41
kees[action] ScottK to update policy based on kubuntu upstream feedback15:42
keesI'd like to defer "When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script?" to the end since it went long last time.15:42
kees[topic] Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)15:43
keesthis is waiting for wording changes, iirc.15:43
mdzfrom whom?15:43
keestrying to find that now15:43
kees# Execute Permission Policy:15:44
kees    * The current policy will not handle all potential cases, such as OO.o macros or application cases which wer are unaware of15:44
kees    * Colin: we should point out an alternative approach instead of just saying "No"15:44
kees    * current impact: kill GNOME desktop "do you want to run it anyway?" question, remove a few MIME handlers15:44
kees    * To be continued in the next meeting15:44
keesthat's where it stood from 2009-11-1715:44
keesso, it needs something for the alternative approach.  wording for macros was handled.15:45
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers/TeamDelegation15:45
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places15:46
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added15:46
MootBotNew Topic:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy15:46
kees[action] kees to clean up further and re-present at next meeting15:46
MootBotACTION received:  ScottK to update policy based on kubuntu upstream feedback15:46
MootBotNew Topic:  Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)15:46
MootBotACTION received:  kees to clean up further and re-present at next meeting15:46
kees[topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)15:46
MootBotNew Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)15:47
keesjust one15:47
kees[link] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/48555915:47
MootBotLINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/48555915:47
ubottuUbuntu bug 485559 in ubuntu-community "Mark Shuttleworth has no expiration date set in the tech-board LP team" [Low,Confirmed]15:47
keeshave I been netsplit again?15:47
pittiwrt. "alternative approach", that should point to packaging and software-center?15:47
mdzkees: no, you're fine15:47
sabdfli think this could turn into a conversations which exceeds our time limit :-)15:56
mdzsounds like it should go on the CC agenda15:56
keesok, so, for actions...15:56
keesis "sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate" what you're expecting?15:57
kees[action] sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate15:57
MootBotACTION received:  sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate15:57
keesand the special case would be part of that proposal?15:57
sabdfli need to think about it15:58
pittiI have a call at 5, need to disappear15:58
keesok, thanks pitti!15:58
keesthe bug status should be updated with some discussion of what is happening.  sabdfl do you want to take that too?15:58
keeschair next time?15:59
kees[action] update bug with status and discussion16:00
MootBotACTION received:  update bug with status and discussion16:00
crazybytesHello people !16:00
keescjwatson: will you chair next?16:00
cjwatsonhappy to16:00
keesthanks everyone!16:00
cjwatsonoh, one sec16:00
MootBotMeeting finished at 10:00.16:00
cjwatsonnext time won't be two weeks, presumably :)16:00
cjwatson12 Jan?16:01
keesah, right.  next meeting is 12 Jan.16:01
keesI'll note it in the, err, notes.16:01
sabdflthanks kees16:02
keesthanks everyone!  have a great holiday!16:02
=== Yos_ is now known as Yos
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=== tseliot1 is now known as tseliot
* rtg waves17:00
* apw fades in17:00
bjfRoll Call17:00
* ogasawara_ waves17:01
=== ogasawara_ is now known as ogasawara
bjfthis could be interesting, freenode having problems?17:01
mhall119|workfreenode has been netsplitting all week17:01
apwsome sort of ddos17:01
* jjohansen here17:02
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
bjf[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting17:02
bjf[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid17:02
bjfNOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.17:02
bjf[TOPIC] Open Action Item: amitk to meet with keybuk on automated boot tests17:02
MootBotMeeting started at 11:02. The chair is bjf.17:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]17:02
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting17:02
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid17:02
apwsmb is on the other half of the split17:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Open Action Item: amitk to meet with keybuk on automated boot tests17:02
bjfamitk, ??17:02
rtgbjf, haven't seen him all morning17:03
bjf[TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs17:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs17:03
ogasawaraRelease Meeting Bugs (0 bugs, 4 blueprints) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid17:03
ogasawaraAlpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (17 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2144417:03
ogasawara * 1 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2144417:03
ogasawara * 2 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2144417:03
ogasawara * 0 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2144417:03
ogasawara * 2 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=2144417:03
ogasawara* Release Targeted Bugs (69 bugs) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs17:04
ogasawara * 4 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux17:04
ogasawara * 3 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx5117:04
ogasawara * 1 linux-ec2 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec217:04
ogasawara * 2 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove17:04
bjf[TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features17:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features17:04
ogasawaraMilestoned Features - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.0417:04
ogasawara * 1 blueprint relating to the kernel - https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-new-kernel-on-lts17:04
bjf[TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)17:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)17:05
bjf[LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling17:05
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling17:05
ogasawaranothing new to report17:05
bjf[TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)17:05
bjf[LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta17:05
MootBotNew Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)17:05
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta17:05
apwwe've pulled in a bunch o fupdates fro the drivers there17:06
apwstill ongoing17:06
bjf[TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)17:06
bjf[LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review17:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)17:06
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review17:06
apwthe first version of config-enforcer is out for review.  will be posting an update today17:06
bjf[TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)17:07
bjf[LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms17:07
MootBotNew Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)17:07
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms17:07
sconklinapw's been doing most of the work on this17:07
sconklinthis week17:07
apwwe have enabled ATI KMS again in the upload after a-117:07
apwnouveau looks to be in linus' tree, and we have a potential to backport there17:08
apwthats under review17:08
bjf[TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)17:08
bjf[LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume17:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)17:08
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume17:08
bjfdoesn't seem to be a manjo today17:09
apwthat blueprint needs sorting out as its not 'approved' yet and its coming up at the weekly release meeting each week17:09
bjfmanjo is on holiday17:09
bjf[TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)17:09
bjf[LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development17:09
MootBotNew Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)17:09
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development17:09
jjohansenapw sucked in upstream AA17:10
jjohansenand I have been updating the regression tests17:10
apwjjohansen, i sent you a build patch for that for non x86 platforms17:10
jjohansenI also sucked in a patch from serge17:10
jjohansenyep, just replied to that17:10
apwwhen we expecting the next update?17:10
bjf[TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)17:10
bjf[LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance17:10
MootBotNew Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)17:10
MootBotLINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance17:10
csurbhicsurbhi ..17:11
jjohansennext update, this week17:11
apwwe pulled in surbhi's performance patch and a couple of others17:11
* gnarl finally made it17:11
apwlooks like we got about .6s out of them, and hopefully a bit more elsewhere17:11
jjohansensweet :)17:11
bjf[TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)17:12
MootBotNew Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)17:12
=== gnarl is now known as smb
bjfI've submitted a patch to increase the size of preallocated buffers which is supposed to help17:12
bjfwith users audio experience. This has been in Fedora for since 11.17:12
bjfAlso, I have c-o-d pretty well working for karmic. I'll be turning it on today. I was having17:12
bjfsome build issues in Lucid chroot since Alpha 1 which I need to work through and get it turned17:12
bjfon as well.17:12
apwbjf pulled that patch in17:12
bjfapw, ack17:12
* apw wonders if its very quiet for everyone17:13
* ogasawara hears crickets17:14
apwi think our meeting got split17:16
ogasawarabjf is relaying my info, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/342019/17:18
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lielHello, again :)18:26
MenZaSeveaz is subject to teh netsplits18:27
Seveazgonna be fun having a meeting in this shitstorm :)18:27
MenZaSeveaz: Oh yeah.18:29
* MenZa rides the wave.18:35
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* MenZa grabs a handrail.18:39
Seveashi MenZa18:40
MenZaEvening Dennis :)18:40
Seveasif freenode fails, we can move to OFTC for the meeting18:40
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MenZaSeveas: Channel?18:41
Seveas#ubuntu-meeting :-)18:42
Seveasbut let's stay here for now. We'll see how it goes18:42
LjLi predict another split just about... now :P18:42
SeveasLjL, you might like this: http://15.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kunlq9Sf9L1qzmowao1_500.jpg18:43
MenZaAlready linked him to it!18:43
LjLseen it :P18:43
MenZaStole it from your FB :318:43
SeveasLjL, you were only a few minutes off :)18:46
LjLSeveas: let's say i were wrong... "a few minutes off" would be a good guess on a normal day, but not today :P18:46
Seveasooh, burn :)18:47
LjLi was, even18:47
Seveasok, fail18:49
MenZaIn case of ChanServFail?18:49
=== Seveas changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Due to netsplit problems, EMEA meeting is moved to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net | Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
SeveasI don't think we can succesfully have a meeting here :)18:50
MenZa+1 on that18:50
MenZagood thing there's not a massive list of candidates like last time18:50
Seveasso far you're the only one, right?18:50
Seveas(who made it to the channel)18:51
MenZaI think so18:51
Seveashi czajkowski18:51
MenZaliel is here18:51
MenZaninnnu as well18:51
MenZaSo that makes three of us (in here)18:51
czajkowskiSeveas: what time do ye start at?18:51
Seveasczajkowski, 20:00 in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net -- freenode is too unstable today18:52
MenZa\o Pici18:52
czajkowskiSeveas: ah ok fridge shows 7pm UTC18:53
czajkowskias lococouncil is on at 8pm UTC18:53
Seveasczajkowski, apologies, I was thinking in my local time18:53
Seveas7 UTC it is18:53
MenZacet ftw!18:53
czajkowskiSeveas: ok, was wondering how popey was going to be at this meeting and lococouncil18:54
MenZamagic, czajkowski18:54
MenZaasanchez: Change of plans, irc.oftc.net :)18:54
Seveasczajkowski, split brain18:54
Pendulumczajkowski: didn't you know he has special powers?18:54
czajkowskiit's in the hair do!18:54
Seveasforumsmatthew, please also join #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net -- we will likely hold the meeting there 'cause freenode is bonkers today18:57
Pendulumczajkowski: it means people will see him years after his death, too ;)18:58
popeymade it18:58
MenZa\o/ popey18:58
Seveasnice, the M25 has been conquered once more18:58
Seveaspopey, /topic -- we're moving to oftc because of the netsplits18:58
popeyO RLY?18:58
Seveasyeah. freenode is too unstable :)18:59
forumsmatthewsee you there18:59
popeyyou are kidding?18:59
Seveaspopey, no, ddos'es all day, netsplits as a result18:59
Flare183popey: Seveas is right18:59
Flare183see for youself18:59
czajkowskiSeveas: a lot of us haven't had issues, it;s only some people on some of the servers18:59
popeyFlare183: I'm not saying he's wrong18:59
Flare183popey: Ok19:00
Seveasczajkowski, netsplits affect everyone as the channel is, well, split :)19:00
=== fader|lunch is now known as fader_
czajkowskiSeveas: can you add it to the wiki page for ppl coming in here tonight for the meeting, so they know ?19:00
czajkowskiif it's not been done already19:00
popeydoubt people will look there19:01
SeveasI'll keep an eye on this place19:01
popeyjust keep an eye on this channel19:01
Seveaslet's start, see you on oftc!19:01
Seveasthose who joined for the emea board meeting: #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net19:09
LjLyou scared the servers :(19:10
padhuwhat the topic?19:10
Pendulumpadhu: they've moved the meeting to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net19:11
Pendulumbecause of all the netsplits on freenode19:11
padhuPendulum: oh.19:13
=== popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Due to netsplit problems, LoCo Council meeting is moved to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net | Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
Seveaspopey, you may want to use OFTC for the loco meeting as well :)19:38
* popey points Seveas to the /topic19:38
Seveasdoh, didn't see it19:39
Seveasdue to all the netsplitting :)19:39
=== robbiew is now known as robbiew_
technovikingwhat netspl...19:49
SeveasTo those who joined for the loco meeting: please join #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net. Freenode is under attack and it's difficult to hold meetings when netsplits happen avery few minutes.19:50
Seveasmaco, it's not exactly funny :)19:50
macoi think its funny that you're announcing a server change. actually...especially without putting it in /topic19:51
Seveasit's in the topic :)19:51
macoi fail at reading19:51
ZachK_maco: just don't laugh at all man19:51
macoZachK_: probably a good plan19:51
Pendulummaco: i suggest that laughing is good for your health so don't worry about laughing just tell people you're laughing as a healthy exercise ;)19:53
ZachK_i'm in the other server...is anyone there too?19:53
macoPendulum: i do find it funny/surprising that a network as big as freenode could be so disrupted.19:54
popeygiven enough bots, any network can be disrupted I imagine19:55
ZachK_maco: please...dude.....just let it go....19:55
ZachK_trust me19:55
Seveasmaco, with enough resources, you can attack anything. And it's not hard at all to disrubt a network with a star layout such as freenode. All you need to attack are the hubs19:55
macooh it's a star?19:55
popey..dim and distant..19:56
macowell now it makes perfect sense why it could get screwed up so easily, they're not exactly the most reliable network formation19:56
ZachK_when is the meeting for new members scheduled to begin?19:58
SeveasZachK_, january 5th19:58
ZachK_I thought it was for today19:59
Seveasit was20:00
Seveasat 19:00 utc20:00
Seveasand it's all over already :)20:00
ZachK_i was here.....20:00
popeynote the /topic20:00
popeywe moved to oftc due to the netsplits20:00
Seveasit was also on oftc, as announced in the channel and in the topic20:01
popeybesides which ZachK_  you're not listed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA20:01
ZachK_i did20:01
JanCmaco: I'd think the larger an IRC network is the easier it is to disrupt 1 part of it  ;)20:06
keffie_jayxplease read the topic20:06
keffie_jayxthe meeting is in irc.oftc.net20:06
macokeffie_jayx: we're just chatting20:06
macoJanC: i figured theyd have the bandwidth to withstand a fairly big botnet20:06
keffie_jayxno problem, feel free to chat20:07
keffie_jayxbut if anyone is interested ... we are over there20:07
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keffie_jayxJust a reminder... the LoCo Council Meeting is in irc.oftc.net #ubuntu-meeting20:26
keffie_jayxALGUIEN DE HONDURAS?20:29
keffie_jayxJust a reminder... the LoCo Council Meeting is in irc.oftc.net #ubuntu-meeting20:29
keffie_jayxHonduras is up20:29
DiegoTcnot late?20:34
popeyDiegoTc: no20:34
popeyDiegoTc: we're in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net20:34
popeybecause of the netsplits here on freenode20:34
popeyso do join us20:34
=== TuxPurple_ is now known as TuxPurple
DiegoTchollman it is #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net20:44
keffie_jayxAnyone here from EL Salvador?20:49
=== ikonia_ is now known as ikonia
tatica1can you tell me where can i get the Log of our approval?21:50
ulysses__tatica1: You can find the logs of meetings here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs21:51
tatica1ulysses_ thank you21:52
FFEMTcJAnyone around who change change the topic? Beginner Team meeting is going to oftc also.. popey ?21:56
=== popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Due to netsplit problems, Beginner Team meeting is moved to #ubuntu-meeting on irc.oftc.net | Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
FFEMTcJThank you popey !21:57
Silver-Fox-Thank you21:58
Silver-Fox-popey, erm,  Mootbot doesn't seem to be in OFTC #ubuntu-meeting.   :(21:59
DiegoTcSilver-Fox-,  think popey left22:00
FFEMTcJSilver-Fox-: half the day i dont think MootBot has been in here either22:00
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czajkowskiFFEMTcJ: it wont be22:54
czajkowskiit's not on that server it's on here22:54
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