[13:46] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/4192829150/sizes/o/
[14:46]  * kwwii doesn't like the + and - style of the snapshot engine
[14:46] <kwwii> darkmatter: is there any way to tweak that?
[14:48] <darkmatter> kwwii: yeah. replace it with pixmaps or with another engine
[14:49]  * darkmatter doesn't like that recoloring is broken in the current pixbuf engine :/
[14:54] <kwwii> darkmatter: I don't like using more than one engine in my stuff
[14:55] <kwwii> it makes it too slow, I think
[14:55] <kwwii> but for prototyping it is great
[14:55] <darkmatter> I have a smallish pixmap dependency. for the most pat it doesn't matter (resize gripper, the scollbars/menubars I'm working on) as the images are/will be theme specific. However I'm trying to maintain recolorability in the theme as a whole. and two pixmaps are p-ing me off. the handle and sidebar/statusbar frame images for nautilus (there's no other 'clean' way to work aroud the issues with the eyesore that is the filer). but the effe
[14:56] <darkmatter> kwwii: if you go overboard it makes it to slow. it's really a matter of really planning out a theme
[14:56] <kwwii> guess I am just a purist :p
[14:58] <darkmatter> I could probably get away without pixmaps in the sidebar, but it would raise a small issue. the hline would go poof on adjusting the contrast. and the resulting gap between the trash and the bookmarks would look like crap
[14:59] <darkmatter> kwwii: purity is for the weak ;D
[14:59] <kwwii> lol
[15:00] <darkmatter> kwwii: it's only two pixmaps anyway :P
[15:00] <kwwii> hehe, it is not the end of the world :)
[15:02] <darkmatter> kwwii: there's unfortunately no other way to cleanly kill the shadow around the sidebar header. there are ways to do it without, but the results are ugly (the buttons get replaced by colored boxes). but the added advantage would be I could custom face/color the selector text. woe is me
[15:03] <kwwii> true
[15:03] <kwwii> in the current stuff I am working on I use some pixmaps too
[15:04] <darkmatter> kwwii: we just need 1) a recode of nautilus. or 2) a nice fat hack in an engine(s) to deal with the issue
[15:04] <darkmatter> but app specific engine code is naughty. we never use it, not even fore evolution ;o
[15:05] <darkmatter> <--- lies
[15:07] <darkmatter> kwwii: the part of the WIP I like the best is the vertical alignment/increased padding in the sidebar. finally. clickable areas xD
[15:13] <kwwii> sorry, I am on a conf-call atm
[15:14] <darkmatter> np
[17:12] <thorwil> so Alexander Larsson just announced a change of focus for Nautilus because gnome-shell will become *the shell* for 3.0. i vaguely recall that it was started to "try out things"
[17:13] <thorwil> but it runs on a straight path to inclusion, no matter what
[17:18] <thorwil> once you have an implementation, it's hard to stop. too bad there's no direct competition
[17:20] <thorwil> http://www.gnome.org/~alexl/nautilus-2-29-1.png
[17:23] <darkmatter> ok. even without the split-view it looks cluttered :/
[17:24] <thorwil> nah, not enough toolbars. also, all gnome apps should implement split view and tabs.
[17:25] <thorwil> now, if you could detach tabs inside the window, to have windows in windows, that would rock!
[17:26] <thorwil> nautilus should have something in the top left, where you click on and then the whole window changes
[17:26] <thorwil> to an overview of actions and splits and tabs
[17:29] <darkmatter> goog dod. simplify man! 130+ additional features does not = better. especially when you're doing the whole dated "split-view, omg tabs! omg jam packed toolbars!" approach from 2 decades ago. I thought gnome 3 was supposed to be an advancement. not an evolutionary regression to the days when designers didn't exist
[17:35] <thorwil> nonsense, every part of the screen should be an active area. gnome really has to stop thinking about user's mental ressources like they were precious.
[17:43] <darkmatter> lol. it's not about 'mental resources' its about efficient design. 'usability' and 'usefulness' are to often used as catch terms/niche terms. it should be about form 'and' function working together flawlessly, not about 'lets throw more crap in without a single notion of design'. I'm all for improved functionality. but if I wanted a ui that was stuck in the past I'd have never left the past
[17:45] <thorwil> exactly, it's about efficiency. so each user action should have maximal impact ... like changing everything at once!
[17:50] <darkmatter> and again the point is completely missed
[17:52] <thorwil> yes, i do think the point is completely missed
[17:55]  * mrmcq2u thinks thorwil would like the openoffice mouse :D
[17:56] <thorwil> mrmcq2u: almost, i'm saddened about the half-hearted approach
[17:56] <mrmcq2u> lol
[17:57]  * mrmcq2u thinks he will be switching to something else around gnome 3.0 if the gnome-shell guys get their way
[17:57] <darkmatter> efficiency is not soley about the features. the BIGGEST contributor is design (from a user interaction perspective). unfortunately they completely missed the mark judging from the nautilus bit. it's supposed to be 'click *less* do more. not 'click more, and do slightly more than you did before".. meh
[17:59]  * mrmcq2u thinks the biggest issue with gnome shell is the "you don't get it attitude", if the majority of people don't get it maybe its time to try a different concept :(
[17:59] <thorwil> pah, how could design ever be the biggest contributor to how things end up being?
[18:00] <thorwil> mrmcq2u: with an audience that doesn't get it, you have to redesign the audience, of course. all their fault if that happens
[18:01] <mrmcq2u> I don't think thats what he is arguing, design seems to be absent from gnome-shells conception. Both visually and in terms of usability.
[18:01] <mrmcq2u> gnome-shell is screwed if keyboards dive in use over the next few years
[18:02] <mrmcq2u> Which will happen
[18:02] <mrmcq2u> its a power users ui
[18:03] <mrmcq2u> thats something canonical should consider before adopting it, unless they want to change their catch phrase to "ubuntu, linux for power users"
[18:03] <thorwil> mrmcq2u: are you kidding? needing and wanting any number (dynamically) of workspaces surely doesn't make one a power user!?
[18:04]  * mrmcq2u prefers moblin-panel over gnome shell, I know its designed for netbooks but seems allot more usable and adaptable than gnome-shell
[18:04]  * thorwil leaves for dinner and might return with a refreshed package or seriousness
[18:05] <darkmatter> thorwil: I think your definitions are skewed. the 'art' is the smallest. most insignificant and final part of the design process. it's like the icing on a cake. if the cakes recipe sucks the icing won't improve the flavor
[18:05] <mrmcq2u> thorwil - relying on keyboard shortcuts to switch between apps does :(
[18:07] <mrmcq2u> darkmatter - i think thorwil is just taking the piss, I would assume he understands the difference between usability and visual design.
[18:08] <mrmcq2u> I also sense some sarcasm coming from him, at least I hope its sarcasm :D lol
[18:08] <Equiet> darkmatter: But the icing is why you tasted this cake (first) among the others.
[18:11] <darkmatter> Equiet: true. (I'm artist and designer and (rusty) programmer. I believe in a convergence of form and function at all levels). I'm just saying making the next-gen gnome 'pretty' won't make it any more palatable
[18:13] <mrmcq2u> gnome-shell's flaw in design is that its main concern is to make people use workspaces more yet it doesn't really give any reasons as to why that is the top priority or important in any way to the "users" experience. Its very brute force, its "hey we have workspaces", "use them now!". This is why I think it is absent of not only form but function as well.
[18:15] <mrmcq2u> And the argument of hey you can contribute to the design is bull, they wont drop the workspace thing. I have no idea why they used javascript because it was originally to prototype different designs but they have not come up with any alternative.
[18:18] <darkmatter> and how many have tried to contribute (even if just on the design end) and gotten the "NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!111!!!" thing? quite a few iirc
[18:20] <mrmcq2u> I don't even understand what they were trying to say in the gnome-shell nautilus post. What so gnome-shell pretty much replaces the file manager now. Lets get rid of the spatial desktop. Navigate files on a tiny sidebar with cut off text titles and ‌tiny unrecognizable  thumbnails, no thanks.
[18:21] <mrmcq2u> gnome 3.0 is shaping up to be a bigger flop than kde4.0 , the kde guys must be chuffed :D
[18:26] <darkmatter> hehe
[18:47] <thorwil> mrmcq2u: so at least you have a somewhat working sarcasm detector
[18:47] <mrmcq2u> :)
[18:48] <thorwil> mrmcq2u: spot on regarding th workspaces thing
[19:16] <maitraya> I wanna contribute to ubuntu good looks. I have launchpad acc. How to help?
[19:18] <Equiet> maitraya: Hi. You could introduce yourself, say something about your experience, whether you are artist, UI designer, programmer...
[19:19] <mac_v> dashua: Bug 497885 ;)
[19:19] <mac_v> !contribute | maitraya
[19:22]  * mac_v reads scrollback and notices thorwil toying with people ;)
[19:22] <mrmcq2u> lol
[19:22] <maitraya> I'm a high school student living in India. I developed interest in digital art 6 yrs back and have been creating interactive artistic content for school fests and for educational purpose.
[19:22] <thorwil> what? outrageous!
[19:23] <maitraya> I've participated in a large no. of grapics/development inter-school competitions.
[19:24] <thorwil> welcome maitraya, can you show us examples of your work?
[19:25] <maitraya> go to www.winged-ckt..webs.com This was my first work. If u want more. I can upload them.
[19:25] <maitraya> Sorry it is www.winged-ckt.webs.com
[19:25] <maitraya> I designed everything
[19:28] <maitraya> I think there can be a very nice looking ambient theme for ubuntu. Only it needs some hard work to be done.... Downloaded ubuntu 9.10 can't wait to get my hands on it. The new logon screen and the sleek interface was very impressive!!! :)
[19:30] <Equiet> maitraya: What tools do you use? Inskcape, GIMP?
[19:30] <maitraya> Right now I am also thinking of a set of ubuntu login screen pics to be designed. One of them could include a very artistic modern seven wonders of the world theme.
[19:30] <maitraya> Yup. I love GIMP and its special effects.
[19:31] <thorwil> maitraya: first you need to understand that there is a design team working at Canonical. the default theme and usually also the wallpaper is up to them
[19:31] <maitraya> And I use Inscape too but not as frequently as GIMP. However the above was developed by a Commercial tool.
[19:31] <maitraya> So what do we do????
[19:32] <thorwil> maitraya: what they come up with is often a surprise for the artwork community as it is for everyone else
[19:32] <maitraya> So what is the role of us??
[19:32] <thorwil> maitraya: some of us work on additional themes
[19:32] <mac_v> maitraya: the community work is in the wiki link in the topic
[19:32] <maitraya> Maybe that then.... :-/
[19:33] <maitraya> How do you know whether your artworks are selected or not???
[19:34] <mac_v> maitraya: the current proposals are here > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid
[19:34] <thorwil> maitraya: themes need to be ready for packaging in time.  the who and what is usually discussed on the mailing list
[19:34] <maitraya> Thanks buddy. You ar helping me a lot. I'm new here you see....
[19:35] <thorwil> maitraya: there's also an icon theme a few of us work on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet
[19:35] <mac_v> maitraya: community themes/icons are in a separate package , the inclusions are discussed on the mailing list
[19:36] <maitraya> So are they bundled with the ubuntu CD or kept online for people to download additionally??
[19:36] <thorwil> maitraya: finally there's a flickr group for wallpapers: http://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork
[19:36] <maitraya> Oh great!!! thorwill
[19:37] <mac_v> maitraya: not bundled in the cd , but users can install later
[19:37] <maitraya> That's Ok
[19:37] <thorwil> mac_v: weren't Dust and New Wave on the CD for at least one release?
[19:38] <mac_v> thorwil: those moved into the main , human theme [iirc]
[19:38] <maitraya> Tell me one thing!! Is it necessary that I have to create artwork on open source softwares only??????
[19:38] <thorwil> maitraya: no, but it helps
[19:38] <mac_v> maitraya: preferable ;) , but not a rule yet :)
[19:39] <maitraya> Did you check my site??
[19:41] <thorwil> maitraya: briefly. has some nice visuals, but feels a little inconsistent
[19:41] <maitraya> Maybe..... I developed it 5 yrs back
[19:41] <thorwil> maitraya: e.g., all the content links on http://www.winged-ckt.webs.com/contents.html lead to pages breaking the layout
[19:42] <maitraya> Yup. Thats one problem. Plus I dont update anymore. So thats that.
[19:42] <thorwil> plus all the typical problems with flash-heavy pages
[19:43] <maitraya> YES. I AGREE O:-)
[19:43] <thorwil> :)
[19:53] <maitraya> Thanx and bye everyone.... 8-):PO:-);-)
[20:26] <mac_v> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/295
[20:28] <kwwii> ooh, the word is out
[20:28] <kwwii> now I can talk about it :)
[20:29] <kwwii> it's just about title swapping, the way things work won't really change
[20:35]  * thorwil doesn't even have a title to swap!
[20:35] <kwwii> or one to be taken away ;)
[20:39] <thorwil> oh, let me have my glass half empty ;)
[20:39] <kwwii> hehe
[20:41] <mac_v> lol
[20:44] <Equiet> Can't we make a mock up of community dreamed Ubuntu?
[20:45] <thorwil> Equiet: sure you can
[20:45] <thorwil> Equiet: i don't need to tell you how long it takes to create a full featured mockup ;)
[20:46] <thorwil> Equiet: and then there's the question what you achieve with it
[20:46] <Equiet> Me is not enough. I saw a lot of great ideas that has never been implemented. It must be something that community wants, not single person.
[20:47] <Equiet> *s/has/have
[20:47] <thorwil> Equiet: do you know the term bikeshedding?
[20:47] <Equiet> No...
[20:48] <thorwil> http://sunsite.ualberta.ca/jargon/html/B/bikeshedding.html
[20:50] <Equiet> Ok... And what are that minor and major problems?
[20:51] <thorwil> Equiet: regarding theming, every little detail and the whole will be "discussed" as if everything is trivial
[20:51] <thorwil> Equiet: i once thought it would be possible to get people to pull in one direction. the remains of an attempt are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation#On%20Design
[20:55] <Equiet> So, what to do?
[20:57] <thorwil> Equiet: for my part, the answer has been nothing, so far. nothing regarding theming
[20:58] <Equiet> :|
[21:01] <thorwil> Equiet: the picture i'm painting is still too bright. you also have to consider that we have almost no coding skills in our so called team. gtk theming is a mess. there are special cases and limitations everywhere
[21:03] <thorwil> Equiet: but there are so many other things a designer can work on, with much better chances of actually making a difference
[21:03] <Equiet> Maybe if we will make really good mock up and post it to brainstorm, coders would make some work.
[21:04] <thorwil> this is especially true if you leave the ubuntu relam and take on the larger floss world
[21:05] <Equiet> For example?
[21:05] <thorwil> Equiet: we already saw one or 2 mockups where lots and lots of users went ecstatic and shouted: this should be implemented! this must be implemented! somehow there's never a capable developer in the crowd who will do it
[21:06] <thorwil> Equiet: i sometimes get requests for artwork from projects
[21:07] <thorwil> Equiet: and i bet that chances are good if you simply approach a project where you think the could benefit from some artwork or design love
[21:08] <thorwil> really, sometimes i think i should call for the artwork team wiki, list and channel to be dissolved, for everyone to spent there time elsewhere ^^
[21:15] <thorwil> good night!
[21:21] <mrmcq2u> night
[21:21] <kwwii> night
[21:22]  * kwwii heads out as well