[00:00] <Ketsuban> Why is "do nothing" not an option for action when the laptop lid button is pressed? It's currently set to "blank screen", but that apparently means "crash" in whatever language Ubuntu speaks.
[00:00] <nvme> oh okay this looks like it
[00:00] <nvme> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/XorgHalsectomy
[00:00] <bjsnider> dtchen, are you back on that again?
[00:00] <bjsnider> ugh
[00:01] <dtchen> bjsnider: yes, I am. For a kernel guy, having a non-crashing system is really useful.
[00:01] <dtchen> cos you know, work can actually get done.
[00:01] <bjsnider> they've spent a total of 12 minutes on that driver per year in the past decade
[00:02] <bjsnider> might as well use vesa
[00:02] <dtchen> bjsnider: like I said before, I don't really care about the fact that it's essentially unmaintained. I care about the fact that it's a crackton more stable.
[00:02] <dtchen> yes, I did use stable for the entirety of Karmic.
[00:02] <dtchen> s/stable/vesa/
[00:02] <bjsnider> it's just really ironic
[00:03] <bjsnider> they spend no time developing that piece of garbage, and yet it's much more stable for you than the one they constantly work on
[00:03] <bjsnider> or maybe your graphics card is old junk
[00:03] <dtchen> shrug. It isn't as if this hardware is spectacular, either. It's an HP, of course it sucks.
[00:03] <bjsnider> i gues you don't work for the hewlett packard corporation
[00:04] <i_is_broke> heh, some of the old junk runs better then the new crap there making now tho.think about that.
[00:04] <dtchen> I don't think it would matter if I had/do.
[00:04] <bjsnider> the blob never crashes this system
[00:04] <dtchen> well, that's great. PA works wonderfully on my systems, too.
[00:05] <dtchen> i.e., just because it "works" under one's purvey doesn't really mean a lot
[00:05] <dtchen> purvey? purview. anyhoo
[00:05] <nvme> !evdev
[00:06] <RAOF> dtchen: Try nouveau, really.  It's like nv, but where resume works.
[00:06] <nvme> anyone know how i can find out about 'evdev' rules ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/XorgHalsectomy
[00:06] <bjsnider> i tried to get him to do that
[00:06] <bjsnider> he said he couldn't be bothered
[00:06] <dtchen> argh.
[00:06] <bjsnider> if he's using vesa on karmic...
[00:07] <bjsnider> i don't even know how to comment on that
[00:07] <dtchen> ok, let me explain: this laptop has a broken bios. It corrupts low memory on resume.
[00:07] <RAOF> Ah, missed that.
[00:07] <dtchen> so, in light of that, do you really think I give a flying wazoo if a gfx driver has working suspend & resume?
[00:07] <RAOF> No, not really.
[00:08] <dtchen> now, certainly, I could submit a quirk for linux to "reserve" the contaminated bits
[00:08] <bjsnider> dtchen, if nouveau is the default in lucid, will you use it or go out of your way to use nv?
[00:09] <dtchen> bjsnider: dude I'm no luddite
[00:09] <dtchen> if it's there, I'm not going to rip it out like people do with PA
[00:09] <bjsnider> i see
[00:10] <dtchen> again, I'm *not* particularly attached to "nv". I *am* attached to a working system. Being able to see the actual alsa/pulse source code is slightly useful.
[00:10] <bjsnider> what nvidia chip is in that thing?
[00:11] <dtchen> 00:12.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation C67 [GeForce 7150M / nForce 630M] (rev a2)
[00:11] <bjsnider> no vdpau support
[00:12] <oldude67> mine is older its a riva tnt2:D
[00:12] <bjsnider> now that is old junk
[00:12] <oldude67> works good.
[00:12] <bjsnider> can't do any decent bling
[00:13] <dtchen> I remember when the TNT was the new hotness. Heck, I remember the furor when it usurped the 3dfx lines.
[00:13] <dtchen> "translucent water in quake?!"
[00:14] <bjsnider> dtchen, i had a guy email me saying he had to rip out pa from karmic because he couldn't get surround sound to work...
[00:14] <oldude67> now let me get this right, the kernel has to work with this release as well as with the release of the 8.04 lts?
[00:15] <dtchen> oldude67: it should; there obviously isn't a guarantee
[00:15] <dtchen> bjsnider: where "couldn't get surround sound to work" entails...?
[00:15] <oldude67> i was just wondering if it was cause they could go from the 8.04 to the 10.4
[00:16] <bjsnider> it sounded like he was grabbing mplayer from my ppa, playing a 5.1 ac3 or dts flick, and couldn't get the 5.1 side to work with his speakers...
[00:16] <oldude67> and i understand there is no guarantees on updates.
[00:16] <bjsnider> so his brilliant google-inspired decision was to rip out pa
[00:16] <bjsnider> not to go to you for help
[00:17] <dtchen> that's ok, people are Free to hang themselves. There's plenty of rope.
[00:17] <bjsnider> there must be a lot of advice out there on google saying "if pa doesn't do exactly what you think it should, get rid of it"
[00:23] <i_is_broke> ugh i should of reboot the computer before i logged out of ssh...grrr.
[00:37] <dtchen> bjsnider: yeah, that's a battle I no longer care to fight
[00:38] <bjsnider> you can't fight google
[00:38] <bjsnider> you can't win
[00:38] <dtchen> no, you can't fight stupid. It burns.
[00:39] <bjsnider> he then had the gall to complain that no other sound output module would give him surround sound
[00:39] <bjsnider> how the hell did he think he was going to achieve that without pulse...
[00:39] <dtchen> it's possible through alsa-lib's plugin layer directly
[00:40] <dtchen> (which is in fact how PA does it)
[00:40] <bjsnider> well, he failed in that effort too
[00:40] <bjsnider> he was using another output module
[00:40] <bjsnider> can't remember the name now
[00:41] <bjsnider> openal
[00:47] <nvme> anyone know how i can have the mounting of stuff in /etc/fstab delayed (trying to improve my boot)
[00:47] <nvme> *boot time
[00:57] <RAOF> bjsnider: FWIW, ymanton now has some free time, part of which he plans to spend getting g3dvl to expose a VDPAU interface, which would be nice.
[01:01] <bjsnider> g3dvl?
[01:03] <RAOF> bjsnider: The gallium video-acceleration winsys - it currently does XvMC on the 3D engine, but there has also been work done to get gallium to drive the specialised video decoding hardware.
[01:03] <RAOF> Where it exists, and use the 3D engine where it doesn't.
[01:04] <bjsnider> yeah, i've heard of that being on the agenda
[01:05] <bjsnider> it would be especially nice for intel users since most people have intel gpus
[01:05] <RAOF> Sadly intel gpus are also horribly underpowered.
[01:06] <bjsnider> the 4500 has purevideo type hardware in it
[01:06] <bjsnider> doing jack squat in linux right now
[01:06] <RAOF> Ah, well.
[01:07] <bjsnider> it would be a big laptop power-saver for people who watch flicks on their laptops
[01:08]  * RAOF would just like to offload some mpeg4 avc decoding to the TV box's 6600GT, so it can actually keep up with high-resolution video.
[01:08] <bjsnider> get a newer card
[01:10] <bjsnider> they're practically giving away the 8400s now
[01:10] <bjsnider> probably because they're bumpgate cards
[01:11] <XiXaQ> it seems versions for default software in lucid has been decided already, at least for many applications. Where can I find a list?
[01:12] <XiXaQ> or is it so that the major versions have already been uploaded and there won't be any major upgrades in this cycle?
[01:12] <bjsnider> of course there will
[01:12] <XiXaQ> why?
[01:12] <bjsnider> it's a conservative release, but not that conservative
[01:13] <XiXaQ> I mean why is it obvious?
[01:13] <bjsnider> look on the schedule for "debian import freeze" or whatever they call it
[01:14] <bjsnider> then look for whatever package worries you on packages.debian.org for the current upstream version
[01:14] <XiXaQ> I've seen those, but that'll include evolution 2.29, for instance and it still won't get into lucid.
[01:14] <bjsnider> that's probably what will be pulled
[01:15] <bjsnider> RAOF, when would you epect gallium to being to be used?
[01:15] <bjsnider> begin to be used
[01:16] <RAOF> As the default 3D provider?  I don't really know.  Probably a couple of mesa releases away.
[01:16] <bjsnider> intel is wading into that pool a toe at a time
[01:17] <RAOF> Right.  Because, until laribee comes out, that pool is much more interesting for nvidia & ati cards than for intel.
[01:20] <RAOF> Not that it's completely uninteresting for intel, but the nvidia & ati cards are just so much more likely to want to rewrite their drivers, because nv5x and r600-r700 are really very different and intel isn't there yet.
[01:22] <bjsnider> i've read some time in the latter half of next year
[01:23] <RAOF> That mesa will release with gallium-default?  That wouldn't surprise me.
[01:24] <bjsnider> yes
[01:25] <RAOF> And it'd probably release with at least _some_ nouveau 3d enabled :)
[01:26] <bjsnider> that would be nice
[01:31] <bjsnider> XiXaQ, you can file a luanchpad bug that's a packaging request and then make your argument for why you want whatever this app is included in lucid
[01:32] <XiXaQ> ?
[01:32] <XiXaQ> it's not that I want a spesific package included. I want to know which packages to expect when we're done.
[01:33] <bjsnider> well, i already told you
[01:33] <bjsnider> whatever is upstream in debian at that moment
[01:33] <XiXaQ> for instance, if I know that Evolution 2.28 will be included, and noone else, then I know now, what to expect in april.
[01:33] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, are you sure?
[01:33] <bjsnider> yep
[01:34] <XiXaQ> so then, if Debian decides to package 2.30, then Ubuntu must obey even though it's been decided that Lucid should stick with 2.28?
[01:34] <bjsnider> no
[01:34] <bjsnider> you said you didn't know what had been decided
[01:34] <bjsnider> now you say you do know
[01:34] <XiXaQ> I did not.
[01:35] <XiXaQ> I know what's been decided regarding _evolution_. I don't know what's been decided for all the other default apps and packages, if anything.
[01:35] <XiXaQ> that's what I want to know.
[01:35] <bjsnider> which evolutionis upstream right now?
[01:36] <XiXaQ> right now? 2.28, i guess. Why?
[01:36] <bjsnider> you guess
[01:36] <XiXaQ> yes?
[01:36] <XiXaQ> why does it matter?
[01:36] <bjsnider> it's part of gnome isn't it?
[01:36] <XiXaQ> yes, but Ubuntu will not stick with GNOME in this version.
[01:37] <XiXaQ> that is, some will be 2.30 and some will be 2.28 aiui.
[01:38] <XiXaQ> so, Evolution 2.30 will be released in march, but it will not be included in Lucid.
[01:38] <bjsnider> nd you want to know which will be the case with evolution
[01:38] <XiXaQ> no.
[01:38] <XiXaQ> are you _trying_ to be difficult?
[01:38] <bjsnider> i guess i'm not understanding what you're asking
[01:39] <bjsnider> you know alraedy which evolution will be there
[01:39] <XiXaQ> I want to have a general overview of which packages are planned to be included in lucid. Evolution is the _one_ application I _do_ know.
[01:39] <bjsnider> oh, i see
[01:39] <bjsnider> i thought you'd said that you were only interested in evolution
[01:40] <XiXaQ> no, I just used that as an example of why I'm asking, since it breaks the pattern from all the previous versions of Ubuntu to not ship the latest upstream packages.
[01:40] <bjsnider> they publish a "planned features" type document online for that info, but i don't know if it's up yet
[01:40] <bjsnider> they're very conservastive with lts releases
[01:42] <IdleOne> XiXaQ: I think what is important to remember is that Ubuntu use upstream but it is not bound by upstream, just because Debian is going to use for example evolution 2.30 does not mean Ubuntu will or even has to.
[01:43] <IdleOne> least that is how I understand the ubuntu release philosophy
[01:43] <bjsnider> it's likely whatever gets held back will be published in a ppa anyway at some point
[01:43] <IdleOne> yup
[01:45] <DanaG> (nautilus:10628): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_set_back_pixmap: assertion `pixmap == NULL || gdk_drawable_get_depth (window) == gdk_drawable_get_depth (pixmap)' failed
[01:46] <XiXaQ> IdleOne, I know. That's why I'm asking where I can find out which versions are decided for lucid. It's more useful to discuss the issues while they're relevant.
[01:46] <RAOF> XiXaQ: Evolution is a bit of a special case, but it's by no means unique; we shipped gdm 2.20 for a couple of releases after the rewrite was release and only switched in Karmic.
[01:46] <XiXaQ> if I always hear about the decisions a few weeks after they've been made, then I loose my opportunity to voice my opinion.
[01:46] <IdleOne> XiXaQ: not sure where the list of proposed versions is or if there even is one at this point
[01:47] <IdleOne> RAOF: might know better
[01:47] <bjsnider> the import freeze wouldn't be for months i would think
[01:47] <RAOF> XiXaQ: So, the policy is basically the same: latest upstream version at feature-freeze time, barring exceptions - in this case, it looks like Evolution is going to go through stability-breaking changes, and the concern is that 2.30 won't be sufficiently stable.
[01:48] <XiXaQ> IdleOne, ok, this is an issue, I think. It's very important for people to know what to expect. We see the concequences of the opposite with karmic. Everyone expected it to be the best release yet, and that's because very few were aware of the big underlying changes that had been made.
[01:49] <bjsnider> fedora publishes these great documents detailing exactly what they want to import and how far they've gotten. ubuntu needs to do that
[01:49] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, I'm sorry if I came across a bit strongly there, btw. I'm trying to quit smoking and I'm a bit edgy these days. :>
[01:49] <bjsnider> well, i wasn't tryingt o be sarcastic, i just didn't quite know what you were trying to ask
[01:49] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, I think so too. It makes it very much easier to avoid "over selling" Ubuntu.
[01:49] <XiXaQ> I got that.
[01:49] <RAOF> bjsnider: But we don't really have enough information to do that, and where we do have enough information (ie: we're also upstream) there's plenty of design docs on the wiki.
[01:50] <bjsnider> RAOF, you've seen the fedora docoument i'm talking about?
[01:50] <RAOF> I'm not sure that the characterisation of Karmic is correct, either, but I'm not in a particularly good position to comment.
[01:50] <DanaG> weird... nautilus is drawing my desktop as opaque window-background color.
[01:50] <RAOF> bjsnider: I've seen a bunch of fedora documents; what are you particularly thinking of?
[01:51] <bjsnider> i'll see if i can find it
[01:51] <XiXaQ> karmic is the most unstable distro I've ever used, I think. I can't remember any release of ubuntu that's been so unreliable.
[01:51] <RAOF> But is that your peculiar hardware, or more general?
[01:51] <RAOF> Karmic hasn't been unreliable here, for example.
[01:52] <bjsnider> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/12/FeatureList
[01:52] <XiXaQ> it's fairly predictably unreliable though, so I can live with it for now. (And I've filed bugs on the issues)
[01:53] <bjsnider> what's unstable in karmic?
[01:53] <XiXaQ> I have to remember to unplug my mobile phone before rebooting, for instance, otherwise I get a kernel panic when the login screen appears. Not a very big issue, though it's annoying when I forget it.
[01:54] <XiXaQ> and network-manager must be restarted when I reconnect my hspa connection. It goes nuts on cpu cycles and nothing connects. But that was just a matter of adding a launcher to the panel, so I can live with that as well for now.
[01:54] <RAOF> bjsnider: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid looks like basically the same thing.
[01:54] <XiXaQ> I've read all the blueprints.. that's not really what I'm after.
[01:54] <DanaG> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/491521
[01:55] <RAOF> What's different between the blueprints and the Fedora 12 feature list?
[01:55] <bjsnider> the names of the items are overly technical compared to the fedora document, and there's no up-front description
[01:56] <XiXaQ> I don't know as I haven't looked at Fedoras feature list. But I want something far more comprehensible than the blueprints.
[01:56] <bjsnider> XIXi posted the fedora document earlier
[01:56] <RAOF> XiXaQ: I don't believe that the information that you're after exists; indeed, I don't believe that the decisions you think are being taken in fact exist.
[01:57] <DanaG> http://www.cimitan.com/blog/  -- interesting idea, the placement of the login box in the same place as where the progress bar was.
[01:58] <XiXaQ> RAOF, it's been confirmed for me, that it's been decided that Evolution will stay at 2.28 in lucid (and also in RHEL 6)
[01:58] <RAOF> XiXaQ: That's true, yes.
[01:58] <RAOF> XiXaQ: But that's a significantly special case.
[01:58] <XiXaQ> RAOF, I'd like to know that the discussion exists before the conclusion is reached. That shouldn't be so hard to do?
[01:59] <RAOF> You'd probably want to be following the desktop-team for stuff like that.
[01:59] <XiXaQ> I pay close attention to ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com. Any other good sources?
[01:59] <XiXaQ> I thought that was the primary list for issues like that, but I haven't seen anything about these discussions there.
[02:00] <bjsnider> you could also post a packaging-request bug and make your argument there. you might talk them into your way of thinking
[02:01] <RAOF> Possibly #ubuntu-desktop.  I'm not sure where the particular discussion occurred; it's entirely possible that it was at UDS.
[02:02] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, assuming that I know that any discussions exist. It'd be a lot of resources wasted if everyone should file a packaging bug on every package that exists just in order to confirm that it won't be denied.
[02:03] <bjsnider> oh, everyone won't
[02:03] <bjsnider> believe me, hardly anyone will
[02:03] <bjsnider> hardly any users seem to care
[02:03] <RAOF> If you know the new upstream version will fix a bug you experience, that's useful information to have on a bug.
[02:04] <RAOF> If you know the new upstream version will introduce a significant feature that you'd find useful, that's good information to have on a bug.
[02:04] <XiXaQ> yes, but if the assumption is that the new version will be included, it doesn't seem wise to file a bug on it not being included just in case it isn't.
[02:05] <bjsnider> but even after the decision is made, it can be reversed
[02:05] <bjsnider> there's nothing written in stone
[02:06] <XiXaQ> hmm, for a release named lucid, the development discussions seem very foggy.
[02:06] <bjsnider> it can even sometimes be reversed after the import freeze
[02:06] <RAOF> XiXaQ: That depends on what's actually in the bug you file - if you add a comment to an existing bug that "this is fixed in $NEW_UPSTREAM_VERSION", that's useful.  If you want a shiny new feature in the new upstream version, it's useful to file a bug saying "please add $FOO; available in $NEW_UPSTREAM_VERNION"
[02:07] <RAOF> There are limited packagers, and limited time; knowing that a new upstream version fixes something we care about or includes a shiny new feature that people care about makes it easier to prioritise.
[02:08] <XiXaQ> hmm. If I feel it's safe to assume that a certain package will be included in Ubuntu, you still want me to file a bug about it not being included, just in case? That seems like a waste of everyones time.
[02:08] <RAOF> It's not necessarily safe to assume; this depends.
[02:09] <RAOF> What package is it that you think it's safe to assume it'll be included in Ubuntu?  Why do you assume it'll be available?
[02:10] <RAOF> If you assume it'll be available because it's in Debian testing and we've been syncing from Debian, then yes, that's safe to assume that the next autosync run will pull it in.
[02:11] <bjsnider> autosync?
[02:11] <XiXaQ> well, until a few hours ago, I was confident Evolution 2.29 would appear in lucid any day now. I was just wondering _when_ to expect it. That's when Matthew Barnes told me that seb128 had told him it had been decided not to include it in 10.04.
[02:12] <XiXaQ> I don't think Ubuntu has ever held back a version of Evolution from the current upstream version of GNOME before.
[02:12] <bjsnider> that wouldn't work in the ppa build system. minor changes would have to be made to certain files in the debian diretory
[02:12] <RAOF> Right.  This is an example of the rare exceptions.  We _have_ held back on other core GNOME compenents before.
[02:12] <XiXaQ> RAOF, ok. Not often anyway.
[02:12] <RAOF> Indeed.
[02:13] <XiXaQ> but I really don't mind breaking the patterns from time to time. What I do mind, is not being aware of it.
[02:13]  * DanaG wonders when compiz and metacity will get MPX support.
[02:14] <RAOF> That's fair.
[02:17] <XiXaQ> should be easy to make a routine of sending a short mail about this to ubuntu-desktop ml for instance.
[02:17] <RAOF> Well, except that it's not a routine instance.
[02:18] <XiXaQ> no, that's the reason why it's so important to have a routine for it.
[02:18] <XiXaQ> everyone expects an established pattern to be followed unless they receive contradictory information.
[02:19] <RAOF> Right.  But it's difficult to make a routine of something that's happened twice that I can think of.
[02:19] <RAOF> It _would_ be good to have the reasoning somewhere obivous.
[02:20] <XiXaQ> "When something unpredicted happens, make sure everyone knows about it". How difficult is that? Most developers should know about exception handling?
[02:25] <XiXaQ> of course, this would also help give it-journalists something to write about, giving us more free pr, which is good.
[02:35] <sebsebseb> I have caught up good discussion XiXaQ and the others
[02:35] <sebsebseb> I think it would be a good idea if Ubuntu had something like the Feature List pages for Fedora
[02:35] <sebsebseb> that's rather clear, about what is to come and progress of features,  I have seen it for Fedora 11
[02:36] <sebsebseb> as for Karmic it has been a let down for many people,  there are quite a lot of negative articles out there on the web, as well as peoples negative comments
[02:37] <sebsebseb> I don't know much about Lucid yet, but from what I know, I think it will be a pretty good release, well I hope so anyway, since it's LTS
[02:37] <RAOF> What's different between the current blueprints page and the fedora features page?  Or, in other words, what would need to change to make the blueprints page as useful to you as the fedora page?
[02:37] <sebsebseb> ,but ideally non LTS releases should also be pretty good :)
[02:37] <sebsebseb> RAOF: well the blue prints are loads of pages
[02:37] <sebsebseb> Fedora's stuff is one page
[02:38] <RAOF> So are the fedora pages.
[02:38] <RAOF> They're lots of different pages, with one master-list page.  Similarly, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid
[02:38] <sebsebseb> oh
[02:40] <RAOF> So, is perhaps the answer "people don't know how to find Ubuntu's list page as easily"? :)
[02:40] <sebsebseb> oh I have been on the blue prints before
[02:41] <XiXaQ> hmm. I'm looking for something less detailed, as I said before.
[02:45] <sebsebseb> RAOF: XiXaQ  look nice and clear feature list, uhmm table even,  showing their progress percentagewise as well, and a summar of the feature, then from it people can go on the pages with more details https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/FeatureList
[02:47] <sebsebseb> where as the Ubuntu blue prints,  the names are technical,  and things are done on more than one page, as well as pages for details about the feature.  oh and the IRC stuff isn't really a Lucid feature, but it is a blueprint
[02:47] <RAOF> So, the difference between that and the blueprints list would basically be the one-line summary?
[02:48] <sebsebseb> I have to only go on one page to get an idea of what is to come in Fedora 12,  where as with Ubuntu I would have to go on many pages.
[02:48] <XiXaQ> not necessarily.
[02:48] <sebsebseb> Fedora 12 uhmm Ubuntu, another typeo I did earlier was Summary
[02:49] <sebsebseb> I correct myself and mess up again hmm
[02:49] <sebsebseb> Fedora 13
[02:50] <sebsebseb> RAOF: that's fne to have loads of technical details some where for developers and such,  but the average Ubuntu user won't really understand about most of that,  however they will understand if there's a page like Fedora 13's  Feature List with the main features on one page.
[02:51] <RAOF> Right.  But the _reason_ you can do that is because there isn't a one-line feature-summary on the blueprints page and there is on the Fedora page.
[02:51] <sebsebseb> also the blueprints well,  that would take quite a bit of time, for me to go through it all
[02:52] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: and that's the kind of thing you want as well or?
[02:53] <sebsebseb> RAOF: tables can also be added to as new features get accepted
[02:54] <RAOF> As can blueprints.
[02:54] <sebsebseb> right now no one really knows what the main Lucid features will actsualley be right?
[02:54] <sebsebseb> RAOF: sure, but it's good to have a table like Fedora's feature list, with the main stuff
[02:54] <XiXaQ> I think mails would do. "We've decided to stick with Evolution 2.28 in Lucid because of many underlying changed in 2.29/2.30 that would not be suitable for Evolution. See blueprint x"
[02:54] <XiXaQ> that would suffice.
[02:56] <RAOF> sebsebseb: The blueprints _are_ the main stuff.
[02:56] <sebsebseb> RAOF: well it could get presented in a better way I expect, so don't have to go on so many pages
[02:57] <RAOF> Which is what I'm suggesting; rather than duplicating existing work, we get launchpad to present the existing information in a better way.
[02:57] <RAOF> XiXaQ's problem is orthogonal; that's something that just hasn't been announced anywhere visible.
[02:58] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: Evolution uh huh, well  hopefuly Thunderbird 3 will be in the repo :)
[02:58] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, again, it was just an example. I think it's very strange that it isn't immediately visible to the entire community that a decision like that has been made.
[03:01] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: well it wasn't clear to the whole community that with 9.04, they would put in their edited fast user account switcher, resulting in shut down and log out being removed from the system menu, when that's enabled.  They are also really meant to be in the system menu according to upstream Gnome.   Also it wasn't clear that in Karmic that most of the default screensavers would be removed from the default install,  screensavers that have been
[03:02] <sebsebseb> there since I guess the first release.  Plus your Evolution issue.  I guess these are just seen as little things by many people,  things that  aren't really worth telling loads of people about.
[03:03] <bjsnider> kaffeine was mistakenly bumped to pre-1 in karmic when it should have stayed with 0.8.8 as well
[03:03] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: at least fusa looks better in 9.10 :)  nice icon
[03:04] <XiXaQ> yes, lots of improvements. I'm not complaining about karmic in any way. I'm just saying that it would be easier for people to understand why there are some nasty issues in it if they knew about the massive changes well in advance.
[03:04] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: Ubuntu like being open about loads of stuff, but you still got to know where to get info from.
[03:06] <sebsebseb> some people thought Karmic would compete properly against Windows 7 or something,  in fact there was a good comment on the web I read to something and that person would stay on Windows 7 whilst waiting for Lucid.  As someone who has used Ubuntu for long enough,  I know that Karmic was never made to compete properly against Wndows 7.
[03:06] <sebsebseb> 10.04 will have a better chance at that, it seems
[03:07] <sebsebseb> Also as someone who has used it long enough, I know that newer is not always better, and I know that with Ubuntu it's not about what is the latest, it's about what is still supported,  loads of users do not know this.  That's something Canonical and the Ubuntu community should be a lot more clear about really, I think.
[03:07] <BluesKaj> well, 10.04 still needs a lotta work
[03:11] <sebsebseb> There was a good comment on the web that basically said it's unacceptable for 9.04 to still not provide the proper Firefox 3.5 from the repo,  yes the proper one not Shiretoko.  I guess a user that doesn't reolize that, normalley  or always/only  it's security updates from the repo.  That's something else that should be made more clear to users I guess.  Also whilst I am at it, it would probably be a good idea for it to be made clear to users,
[03:11] <sebsebseb> that it's a good idea to md5sum/sha1sum or both even,  the ISO, before burning the contents to CD.
[03:11] <sebsebseb> Well nothing is perfect I guess!
[03:14] <sebsebseb> BluesKaj: well yeah, but I have a feeling it will be a pretty good release :)
[03:14] <bjsnider> god is perfect, if there is one
[03:14] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: yeah I guess so
[03:17] <RAOF> bjsnider: Totally off topic (continue in #ubuntu-offtopic, if you want), but there are plenty of "god" definitions which don't include perfection :)
[03:18] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: well there are the release notes, but loads of users won't read those, unless someone tells them to
[03:18] <sebsebseb> !notes |  XiXaQ
[03:19] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: also that's when it's released, not before release, but  the alpha's and such get a release notes type page as well
[03:24] <sebsebseb> to go with the subject of things being perfect or not,  i'll do this.  I read a comment on the web, about someone going back to Windows 7, because they didn't like Karmic,  if I remember correctly.
[03:26] <sebsebseb> also, because I wanted to
[03:29] <i_is_broke> you know i havent tried vista on my own computer, but i did look at it in the stores and on my brother computer..and hated it.i havent even seen windows 7 yet.
[03:29] <i_is_broke> i just got so upset with windows, that it would have to take an awful lot to get me to ever go back to it.
[03:29] <rr72_> lucid FTW!
[03:30] <i_is_broke> rr72_, well even as buggy as karmic was and is for some, its still not as bad as windows, cause i didnt have to buy a new computer just to run it.
[03:30] <sebsebseb> i_is_broke: I tried the RC for Vista Version 2 (Windows 7) not used a final yet,  I am thinking virtual machine a trial
[03:31] <i_is_broke> sebsebseb, thats what i thought to,might do that after christmas,but the grandkids come first.
[03:32]  * rr72_ hides from KB1JWQ_ 
[03:32] <i_is_broke> heck i even took my name out of there free beta trials i was so upset.
[03:33] <i_is_broke> they were going to send me windows 7 to use as a tester and told them thanks but no thanks..should of took it then quit.
[03:33] <i_is_broke> lol
[03:33] <sebsebseb> i_is_broke: well Windows 7 is meant to use less resources so be able to run on certain types of computers that VIsta woudn't run on or whatever.  oh yeah by the way their off topic rule  goes for here as well
[03:34] <i_is_broke> lol yeah
[03:34] <i_is_broke> sorry
[03:34] <sebsebseb> so pm if you want, but I am also in #ubuntu-offtopic   I don't go there much, since don't like it much
[03:34] <i_is_broke> sorry  peeps...
[03:35] <rr72_> sebsebseb~ PM ok from anyone to you? :_P
[03:35] <rr72_> *:-P
[03:35] <sebsebseb> well it can be annoying when doing support in #ubuntu and they start pm'ing when really they should of just stayed in the channel
[03:36] <sebsebseb> for example
[03:36] <bjsnider> should have just stayed...
[03:36] <sebsebseb> ,but useualley I don't mind pm
[03:36] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: I mean pm'ing about something, when for example really it would have been better to ask the channel
[03:37] <i_is_broke> anyhow, did i see someone saying they was going back to the xorg setup?
[03:37] <i_is_broke> is that just for now or is it going to stay???
[03:37] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: they tend to also stay in the channel,  when they try and get their pm support
[03:38] <sebsebseb> !pm
[03:39] <i_is_broke> ok, have a question about ramzswap, if i use it on my computer will it just make the memory my swap and if i dont have a lot,cause it to start using swap memory on the hard drive?
[03:39] <i_is_broke> im using it on my lucid box right now.
[03:41] <sebsebseb> rr72_: your answer is above, if you missed it
[03:42] <sebsebseb> well it's still there, even if you didn't miss it,  :D
off topic :-P
[03:43] <sebsebseb> rr72_: hmm/hrm ?
[03:44] <i_is_broke> ok if i run 9.10 server on my home server, when 10.4 comes out, will i still be able to update to it as an lts?
[03:52] <liquid> anyideas? http://pastebin.com/d1200a27a
[03:55] <RAOF> i_is_broke: Yes.  10.04 will be an LTS release; that's not going to change depending on how you got to 10.04.
[03:57] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, you have to know where to get the info from, yes. And I've been asking that question for a long time, and noone seems to be able to give an answer. That suggests to me, that the information might not exist in the form I'd like.
[03:58] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, the release notes are _way_ too late. We should have a community filled with people knowledgable about the release way before it is released.
[03:59] <XiXaQ> i_is_broke, I haven't tried Windows 7 either, but that's not because I'm upset with Microsoft. Actually, I just don't care about them anymore. They don't have anything I want. Alot of companies don't have what I want. I can't be upset with them all.
[04:00] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: nice idea, but it's mainly people that are quite new to Ubuntu using it these days, I guess
[04:00] <i_is_broke> XiXaQ, well its all personal reasons im upset with them..
[04:00] <sebsebseb> also a lot of these people haven't tried another Linux distro yet
[04:00] <bjsnider> RAOF, i'd like to see matroksa support and vdpau in gstreamer. any thoughts on that?
[04:01] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, I've been using Ubuntu since 5.04 and still I don't know where to get this information in time. That should say something.
[04:01] <RAOF> bjsnider: Matroska support is there; vdpau is being talked about.
[04:01] <sebsebseb> Desktop Linux is so much more than just Ubuntu, but it seems that the average Ubuntu user, does not know this.
[04:01] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: second release in 2005 for me, Fedora Core 2 and 4 before it
[04:01] <bjsnider> RAOF, matroksa support with all features including alternate audio/chapters etc.?
[04:01] <XiXaQ> oh, how I wish the term "Desktop Linux" would die a quiet death. It's a meaningless expression which only serves to confuse.
[04:02] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: to some extent maybe so.  because of laptops/notebooks and netbooks as well
[04:02] <i_is_broke> lets see i started with slack, went to suse , then to redhate, then to debian, then to ubuntu, then back to slack then to ubuntu..and have been here ever since.
[04:02] <RAOF> bjsnider: The former?  I believe so.  The second?  Dunno.  I don't know if that requires GStreamer support, or whether it's Totem not supporting it.
[04:02] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, let me elaborate. Would you agree that Debian is one of the biggest Linux distros?
[04:02] <sebsebseb> also I guess a more proper term instead of Desktop Linux that is very similar to it is,  Desktop GNU/Linux
[04:03] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: of course it is
[04:03] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: ,but how many of them use Ubuntu a lot of the time?
[04:03] <i_is_broke> yeah, of course redhat isnt free:(
[04:03] <bjsnider> either way it's folded into gnome
[04:03] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, then Debian GNU/FreeBSD is a Linux distro with a FreeBSD kernel?
[04:03] <sebsebseb> Debian can also use Hurd
[04:03] <sebsebseb> instead of Linux
[04:03] <XiXaQ> right.
[04:03] <bjsnider> there is no totem-xine anymore. totem is gstreamer 100% now
[04:04] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: Desktop and Server, but now we got other devices as well, mobile etc
[04:04] <sebsebseb> well I guess it's,  Desktop,  mobile,  and cloud?
[04:04] <sebsebseb> mobile in this context being notebooks and netbooks and mobile phones
[04:05] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, then what we're communicating is that Debian is a Linux distro except when it's not. That's ... bad communication. For Debian, using GNU/Linux in the name is good. For Ubuntu, which aims to be a user friendly alternative to the proprietary stuff, "Linux" should be hidden, imho.
[04:05] <RAOF> Except "Linux" is a relatively well known trademark.  GNU isn't.
[04:05] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: By default Debian uses Linux
[04:06] <RAOF> bjsnider: Is there a bug report that you know for Totem not respecting matroska chapters?  If not, that'd be a good start :)
[04:06] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, ergo what I said: It's a Linux distro except when it's not. Through that at your grandparents and see how they react.
[04:06] <bjsnider> not that i know of. but there are lots of gnome bugs that go back years without having been dealt with
[04:06] <sebsebseb> my point when using Desktop Linux
[04:06] <XiXaQ> throw!
[04:06] <sebsebseb> is to say that
[04:06] <sebsebseb> there is more than one distro
[04:07] <sebsebseb> ,but sometimes or a lot of the time when I use it, that isn't really clear
[04:07] <sebsebseb> and also that it's the desttop, for the consumer/homeuser,  not some commercial  business server
[04:07] <sebsebseb> for example
[04:07] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, then you also have to explain the concept of distros, meaning that you also have to explain the different kernels, forcing you to explain what a kernel is. At this point, you seem like such an advanced user, if you tell them it's user friendly, they won't believe you.
[04:08] <sebsebseb> when I tell people online for example, about Ubuntu and sometimes other distros even,  I usually give them a basic idea of what Linux is as well.
[04:09] <XiXaQ> ok? Can you give me a short an simple explanation so I can use it when I encounter the question?
[04:09] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: By the way this is all off topic, for this channel.
[04:09] <XiXaQ> indeed. :)
[04:09] <XiXaQ> except for the fact that we're talking about Lucid communication :>
[04:09] <sebsebseb> All operating systems have a kernel, a kernel is  a program in the background, that deals with all hardware and software.
[04:10] <sebsebseb> My definition might not be 100% correct, but it's good enough for a basic idea.
[04:10] <sebsebseb> the kernel is the heart/core of the OS
[04:10] <XiXaQ> so Linux is like Windows? It's where you install the applications?
[04:10] <sebsebseb> no  the kernel is the heart/core of the operating system
[04:10] <i_is_broke> well sort of they are both operating systems.
[04:11] <sebsebseb> the operating systems are,  Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux distributions  such as Ubuntu, and Mandriva, etc
[04:11] <i_is_broke> but so is osx unix
[04:11] <sebsebseb> instead of us Linux people calling it an operating system, we call it a distribution or distro for short
[04:11] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, but you just said Linux _wasn't_ like Windows? I'm confused.
[04:12] <bjsnider> there is a linux kernel, and a windows (ntoskernl) kernel
[04:12] <sebsebseb> A Linux distro such as Ubuntu or Mandriva, can be used for  the basic Windows tasks such as using the Internet, and more
[04:12] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: sure, but he wants a basic thing to say to people that don't know about this kind of stuff
[04:12] <bjsnider> everything is built on top of the kernel
[04:12] <XiXaQ> oh, I get it! Linux is the _core_ of the Operating system, so Ubuntu and Windows both use Linux, but Linux uses different applications, like Firefox instead of Internet Explorer?
[04:12] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: normalley they don't go that far?
[04:13] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, you're right. normally, they say: "you know what, this seems complicated, and Windows works for me".
[04:13] <bjsnider> windows does not use the linux kernel
[04:13] <bjsnider> microsoft is far too stupid to do that
[04:13] <sebsebseb> if they start with that, you could say that xorg is the in the background, program responsible for running the graphical programs in Ubuntu/Mandriva/whatever
[04:13] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, I was trying to show why I think Ubuntu should stop nagging about Linux.
[04:13] <bjsnider> they'd prefer to pay a kernel team to develop an inferior product than use a free one
[04:14] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, oh.. Someone told me the window manager did that..?
[04:14] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: Xorg runs the Gnome and KDE desktop envrionments and window managers such as Fluxbox,  you decide which one to use,  well distros usually have one by default
[04:15] <XiXaQ> the point is that if you talk about Ubuntu, then everyone knows what you're talking about. If you talk about Linux, then you just invite a lot of questions that doesn't bring any answers to the newbies.
[04:15] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: depends on who they are etc
[04:15] <sebsebseb> ,but I guess I normalley say that Ubuntu is an alternative to  Windows for what they want to do
[04:15] <sebsebseb> then later I may explain about Linux and such
[04:15] <liquid>  /set irc_conf_mode on
[04:16] <XiXaQ> of course, it's always best not to either overestimate or underestimate people, but if you have to choose, I think it's better to underestimate everyone.
[04:16] <bjsnider> i don't want a majority of people using linux
[04:17] <bjsnider> i'd rather have it down at 10%
[04:17] <XiXaQ> nobody uses Linux. They use tools that use Linux.
[04:17] <bjsnider> just enough to drive good development and that's all
[04:17] <liquid> like chrome-os
[04:17] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: most people are pretty stupid at computers really,  that is also  Ubuntu's target market really,  and if Canonical target these users properly, they can make some money doing so,  Ubuntu One is a start for those that want  more than 2GB  of space.  Also I have read about a music store,  where there will also be a plugin for Rythombox, and the music will be probably bought from the Amazon store.
[04:18] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: most people that use computers, being more exact when it came to what I just said
[04:19] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: yeah 10% market share is good,  that will bring enough good apps to Linux as well, uhmm yeah commercial apps hmm
[04:19] <sebsebseb> ideally most software should be opensource/freesoftware sure, but there are also some pretty good closed source apps our there
[04:19] <XiXaQ> they're not stupid. They're not that interested. That's my point: if we make the communication blurry and incomprehensible, then we are actively discouraging them from even trying it.
[04:19] <bjsnider> that's fine by me
[04:20] <sebsebseb> some people are better off with Windows really
[04:20] <bjsnider> make it so esoteric that most people don't want to learn how to use it
[04:20] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, why don't you want people to use free software?
[04:20] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: if enough people use Ubuntu more malicious stuff will be made for it, oh sure the user will probably have to install them self, but yeah what I just said
[04:20] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, there are many systems like that. :)
[04:21] <sebsebseb> in fact recently there was something on gnome look  that was meant to be a screensaver, which then turned out to be a malicious program
[04:21] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, uh..
[04:21] <bjsnider> it's likely to dumb down linux to the point where it would be boring and full of feature bloat, like windows
[04:21] <liquid> 10% would still be a big enough market for virus makers
[04:22] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, have a little faith. That's just MS FUD right there. The fact that there is little malware for free systems, is not just a matter of user levels.
[04:22] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, then you're saying that you consider stuff like GNOME to be a part of Linux?
[04:22] <sebsebseb> liquid: well yeah Mac OS X is apparnatlly on 10% now, and some viruses and such has been made for it
[04:22] <sebsebseb> viruses or such, whatever
[04:22] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: to some extent the feature bloat is already happening
[04:23] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, is that true, or just a rumour? I had a look at the wildlist recently, and they're all Windowsviruses.
[04:23] <liquid> linus "kernel will probably double in size before stabilizing" apx quote
[04:23] <XiXaQ> feature bloat in Linux or Linux distros?
[04:24] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: Ubuntu One in the default install, uhmmm a lot of us don't want to use that, me included.  Yes it's a way for Canonical to make money from people who want more than 2GB space,  but it's also being forced on users in the default install hmm.  Maybe a better idea would be for users to know that it's available and then let them choose to install it or not.  Same thing for this music store idea I hav read something about that's meant to be
[04:24] <sebsebseb> in 10.04.
[04:24] <bjsnider> the kernel has already doubled in size many times over. i think it doubles almost every year
[04:24] <XiXaQ> at the moment, I believe most of the new features in Linux are for fairly advanced users.
[04:25] <dtchen> huh?
[04:25] <dtchen> sebsebseb: how are you quantifying "a lot of us"?
[04:25] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, I disagree. But you have to remember that we haven't seen the real usage of Ubuntu One yet. The same goes for Telepathy. Right now, it just seems like something that's nice to have, but they'll have side effects that will revolutionize things.
[04:26] <bjsnider> sebsebseb, ubuntu one wasn't what i was talking about when i mentioned feature bloat
[04:26] <sebsebseb> dtchen: well I don't know, but probably loads of 9.10 users, dont' use Ubuntu One
[04:26] <dtchen> "probably loads"
[04:26] <bjsnider> "adobe reader" is a good example of feature bloat
[04:26] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: the kernel doubleing in size ok, and what else?
[04:27] <XiXaQ> imagine being able to load a live-cd, log onto u1 and have the system sync your settings to give you your contacts, calendars, tasks, memos, firefox history and bookmarks, etc. Or between your computer, just by entering a single password. That'll be nice.
[04:27] <bjsnider> linux has a tiny little program for looking at pdf files that works spectacularly well
[04:27] <liquid> Ubuntu one could eventually tie into user preferences and such ...aka login on any pc.
[04:27] <liquid> :p
[04:27] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, that's not Linux, is it?
[04:28] <bjsnider> what, adobe reader?
[04:28] <liquid> its like evice or something.. the app
[04:28] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, when you talk about feature bloat in Linux, I would not expect to hear anything about PDF readers or desktop applications, but rather something about KVM+KSM, and those kinds of things.
[04:29] <bjsnider> no, i'm saying adobe reader in windows is a perfect example of how windows attracts that kind of bloated garbage like a cow patty attracts flies
[04:29] <i_is_broke> ok be back in a minute..reboot...ugh.
[04:30] <sebsebseb> Some people aren't happy that Gimp won't be in 10.04, but I don't mind about that, since I don't make graphics anyway, and if I start to, I can install gimp or something else anyway.  Plus there's that other program that people think will be better than F-Spot.  Here's another thing some people aren't happy that Ubuntu has Mono in the default install.  Well I guess the defaults will never make all users really happy them.
[04:30] <sebsebseb> about them
[04:30] <bjsnider> i don't want to see that happening in linux. and it would happen if 90% of computer users were using it
[04:31] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: there are good PDF   alternatives for  Desktop Linux :)
[04:31] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, there you go with that "Linux" of yours again. That's _not_ a Linux issue. PDF readers will never be implemented in the kernel.
[04:31] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, doesn't matter if 10% or 100% uses Linux.. It will never implement a PDF reader.
[04:31] <bjsnider> ok, call it what you want
[04:31] <XiXaQ> I call it Ubuntu.
[04:31] <liquid> oss alows for evolution, propriority dosen't
[04:32] <RAOF> bjsnider: I think that's partially an artefact of propritary software, though.
[04:32] <RAOF> bjsnider: Combined with the "kindly bundle the world" philosophy of windows application distribution.
[04:32] <RAOF> bjsnider: I don't think it's an artefact of Windows' 90% market share.
[04:33] <bjsnider> RAOF, that might be ture, but it's also unquestionably because of the ignorance of the average user
[04:33] <dtchen> to some extent, this is all petty handwaving. Of course there will be "bloat" as software is written/bundled to attract some target users.
[04:33] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, would you say that Lubuntu is bloated?
[04:33] <sebsebseb> (Going back to my comment just now,  I might make basic pictures on the computer sometimes, for fun, and it's not been anything fancy.  Plus they probably won't get saved.)
[04:33] <bjsnider> no, ubuntu is not bloated
[04:33] <liquid> cd size limit*
[04:34] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: Ubuntu 9.04 comes with pretty good defaults
[04:34] <XiXaQ> I think removing Gimp and f-spot is a good idea.
[04:34] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: F-spot is not being removed
[04:34] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, it isn't?
[04:34] <sebsebseb> nope
[04:35] <sebsebseb> F-Spot is staying
[04:35] <XiXaQ> when was that decided? :>
[04:35] <sebsebseb> quite a whiel ago
[04:35] <XiXaQ> define a while?
[04:35] <RAOF> One man's "bloat" is another's "competitive feature" :)
[04:35] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: I read a few articles about it
[04:35] <sebsebseb> about a week or two ago or something
[04:36] <sebsebseb> a few articles or was it just one or two, with quite a lot of peoples coments, hmm
[04:36] <XiXaQ> so, sometime, somewhere, someone said that f-spot stays?
[04:36] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: yep
[04:36] <XiXaQ> hurray for clear communications.
[04:36] <RAOF> XiXaQ: No; that _was_ at UDS.  Videos of the "default applications discussion" are available.
[04:36] <XiXaQ> oh, ok :)
[04:36] <liquid> shotwell > fspot
[04:37] <bae> hello can some body talk 2 me?
[04:37] <RAOF> And has been widely publicised; it has, among other things, hit the front page of arstechnica.
[04:37] <XiXaQ> RAOF, today, I've read several articles discussing that very subject.
[04:37] <liquid> bae:hi?
[04:37] <bae> hi?
[04:37] <sebsebseb> I think Ubuntu should remove Mono and any apps that depend on it from the default install.  Banshee is a nice player that uses Mono, that's not in the default install anyway.   F-Spot there's that other program uhmm Gphoto or something.  Tomboy there's  Gnote.  Yep Mono stuff not needed.  No I don't hate Mono, but it is linked to Novell and Microsoft.
[04:38] <RAOF> liquid: Someone said that on the mailing list, so I tried it out; it doesn't work :).  And the other option wasn't even in the archives, so...
[04:38] <bae> do i no u?????
[04:38] <bjsnider> oh, no. don't dredge up that old mono argument again
[04:38] <dtchen> sebsebseb: that is one of the least technically sound reasons to remove Mono.
[04:38] <bae> hi?
[04:38] <RAOF> GNOME is also linked to Novell :)
[04:38] <Ketsuban> I think Ubuntu should remove anything I don't use from the default install. :)
[04:38] <sebsebseb> dtchen: well remove Mono to save space on the default install :)
[04:39] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: true, there's a lot of that on the web
[04:39] <dtchen> sebsebseb: that, also, is one of the least technically sound reasons to remove Mono.
[04:39] <liquid> bae: probably not
[04:39] <bae> can some one talk 2 me? not only me???
[04:39] <RAOF> Ketsuban: I think Ubuntu should remove anything dtchen doesn't use from the default install!  We could have just gnome-terminal & screen! :)
[04:39] <bae> awl
[04:40] <XiXaQ> I see no reason to include Mono by default at this time. And far as I'm aware, it's only needed for F-Spot at this time?
[04:40] <RAOF> XiXaQ: And Tomboy.
[04:40] <sebsebseb> yep and Tomboy
[04:40] <XiXaQ> but if the discussion is over and decision is made, then the point is moot.
[04:40] <liquid> bae: do you have a question?
[04:41] <bae> whats ur name?
[04:41] <bjsnider> and banshee
[04:41] <liquid> fspot alternatives : http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2009/11/gimp-to-be-removed-lucid.html
[04:41] <XiXaQ> I've never understood why we can't have another alarm clock in the default install because Evolution has the ability to provide it, when we can have tomboy for notes, even though that's a core feature of Ubuntu.
[04:41] <XiXaQ> err, Evolution.
[04:41] <liquid> bae: david
[04:41] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: yep, but that's not in the default install
[04:41] <bjsnider> it will be
[04:41] <bae> how old r u?
[04:41] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: it will be???
[04:41] <XiXaQ> so, I also think Tomboy should be removed, just to be consistent with the desktop philosophy of Ubuntu.
[04:41] <bjsnider> it will be the default music player before too much longer
[04:42] <liquid> bae: do you really need to know that?
[04:42] <sebsebseb> I went to Banshee when that became better than Rythombox. Banshee used to suck,  now days though Rythombox has improved quite a bit.
[04:42] <i_is_broke> what will be the default music player?
[04:42] <bae> im ust askin danm ?
[04:42] <bjsnider> banshee
[04:42] <sebsebseb> i_is_broke: Rythombox will be the default for 10.04
[04:42] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu
[04:42] <liquid> bae: 20
[04:42] <sebsebseb> Amarok for Kubuntu
[04:42] <i_is_broke> bae,this is not a normal chat room
[04:42] <i_is_broke> ah i see.
[04:43] <Mrz> nd!
[04:44] <sebsebseb> Rythombox is fine for now as the default music player in Ubuntu.
[04:44] <i_is_broke> you know i have never even used it, i use amarok all the time.
[04:44] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, I see _no_ reason why we should replace Rhythmbox. Replacing apps should not be an easy decision. Replacing Pidgin with Empathy, for instance, was absolutely _necessary_. Otherwise, I wouldn't have supported it at all.
[04:44] <Mrz> hey?
[04:45] <i_is_broke> thats another app, i dont use either.
[04:45] <IdleOne> Mrz: this chatroom is a tech support room for Ubuntu Alpha if you would like to chat please type /join #ubuntu-offtopic
[04:45] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: absolutely necessary,  what why, becasue upstream Gnome made one?  normalley it's good to go with upstreams, but sometimes they mess up for certain users as well,  this wasn't a mess up for me, but I have two examples where I am not that happy with upstream Gnome.   Anyway many of us like Pidgin still.
[04:45] <XiXaQ> :)
[04:46]  * XiXaQ takes the not so subtle hint from IdleOne. 
[04:46] <i_is_broke> if i had to chose over empathy. or any other i would pick most anything over it.
[04:46] <Mrz> ok!awl
[04:46] <IdleOne> Mrz: thank you
[04:46] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, because we want to have an interpersonally connected desktop. Telepathy provides the underlying mechanism to provide that.
[04:46] <Mrz> ur w3llcome
[04:47] <IdleOne> XiXaQ: that was not directed at you btw :)
[04:47] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: what does that actsaulley mean, not read Empathy stuff recently, I also haven't tried Empathy last time,  and when I tried it last time it was just for IM.
[04:47] <Mrz> wats up?
[04:47] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: uhmm that was meant to say I haven't tried Empathy recently
[04:47] <IdleOne> Mrz: how old are you?
[04:48] <Mrz> 19
[04:48] <Mrz> y
[04:48] <bjsnider> an interpersonally connected desktop...
[04:48] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: that does what
[04:48] <liquid> Mrz: may i redirect you to http://tinychat.com/
[04:48] <sebsebseb> ?
[04:48] <bjsnider> i don't know
[04:48] <bjsnider> it's not my term
[04:48] <IdleOne> ok. Olivia, listen this is a technical discussion forum. We are not interested in a/s/l type discussions. You are more then welcome to stay here and join in the conversation but please keep it on topic
[04:48] <i_is_broke> i still want to know why its so important?
[04:49] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, it provides loads of cool stuff, from the simple and useful, like having an indicator in your contact list, showing if the person is available for chat, voice, video, etc, to sharing your desktop over the internet, directly with your contacts without any NAT setup, configuring passwords or anything.
[04:49] <i_is_broke> i loaded it, used it once and hated it.
[04:49] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: ah yes the  desktop sharing thing, but is it done in a secure way, is the thing
[04:50] <i_is_broke> yeah that kind of spooks me.
[04:50] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, yes.
[04:50] <liquid> well the hope with empathy is that because its default it will get more work done on it as well
[04:50] <Mrz> ok
[04:50] <bjsnider> there's a more mature program for that purpose called pidgin
[04:50] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, but that's just a simple use case, almost like a demo, of Telepathys possibilities.
[04:50] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, Pidgin is just a chat application, nothing more. Telepathy is much more.
[04:51] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: well yeah, but how many of us actsualley need Empathy/Telepathy ?  or I should say have a good reason to use it
[04:52] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, how many of us actually need inet sockets?
[04:52] <XiXaQ> ... most of us.
[04:52] <XiXaQ> why shouldn't you be able to connect your applications with a _human_ and not only a _computer_?
[04:52] <bjsnider> what does telepathy give me that pidgin does not?
[04:52] <i_is_broke> or couldnt add?
[04:53] <liquid> voip?
[04:53] <sebsebseb> would be good if on install of Ubuntu,  a message came up?  explaining   about some of the other popular apps that they might want to install, Pidgin etc?  and then letting them instal lit easilley?  Gimp even, and  Synaptic for those that still want it when 10.04 comes out.  Software Centre will replace Synaptic.
[04:53] <bjsnider> no, pidgin has that
[04:53] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, lots. Like Tubes, for instance, enabling you to open "sockets" between applications over an IM channel to your contacts.
[04:53] <liquid> but telapathy isn't in the default any more soo...
[04:53] <i_is_broke> ugh, what about kpackagekit?
[04:54] <bjsnider> XIXin specific terms, what does a socket between applications do?
[04:54] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, we need Empathy because we need Telepathy, because Telepathy provides lots of stuff that Pidgin won't ever provide. It's far beyond IM.
[04:54] <i_is_broke> will you be able to install them even tho they are not default?
[04:54] <bjsnider> XiXaQ,  specific terms, what does a socket between applications do?
[04:55] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, what do you do with your computer and what do you do with other people? That's what it does.
[04:55] <liquid> i_is_broke: of course
[04:55] <sebsebseb> i_is_broke: Synaptic I guess will be in the 10.04 repo, just like I guess Gimp will be.  Well Gimp has to be for sure,  and if it's not, I can imagine the articles/blog entries on the web, and peoples comments regarding, that already.
[04:55] <bjsnider> those aren't specific ebnough terms, in my view. those are generalities
[04:55] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, instead of opening a socket to a computer at a given port, you open a connection to another humans application. What you do, is up to you.
[04:56] <IdleOne> Unless they plan a major upgrade to the Software Center I will continue to favor Synaptic
[04:56] <bjsnider> that sounds less like a feature than a security hole
[04:56] <i_is_broke> well that sounds all fine and dandy for tech people but for the average user, i dont want them messing with my stuff...that just means more breakage.
[04:56] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, is Internet a security hole?
[04:56] <liquid> IdleOne: what about aptitude?
[04:57] <IdleOne> liquid: and aptitude of course
[04:57] <bjsnider> pretty much, yes
[04:57] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, why do you think it's more dangerous to connect to a port number than a contact name?
[04:57] <IdleOne> liquid: I was comapring GUI for GUI
[04:57] <sebsebseb> IdleOne: yeah I have a feeling that when Synaptic gets replaced by Software Centre, that I will still want Synaptic installed
[04:57] <i_is_broke> i can see someone loging into konsole and doing rm on my root folder.
[04:57] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, I meant the other way around. :)
[04:57] <IdleOne> comparing*
[04:57] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, and why is it more dangerous to transfer voice data to a contact than text data?
[04:57] <bjsnider> what if eth socket is connecting to an application that's running a thread in kernel space?
[04:58] <liquid> i_is_broke: no root passsword?
[04:58] <i_is_broke> well yeah, of course.
[04:58] <IdleOne> i_is_broke: they will only have the permission you grant them.
[04:58] <bjsnider> or as root
[04:58] <i_is_broke> ah ok
[04:58] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, Telepathy doesn't provide inet sockets. It provides Telepathy Tubes.
[04:58] <bjsnider> you sound like a commercial for telepathy
[04:58] <bjsnider> you've got the branding down and everything
[04:59] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, if you rightclick your contact list (when running as root) and select "Share my desktop", then that's ... well. You've _tried_ to make a hole.
[04:59] <liquid> it is convient to unify applications
[04:59] <sebsebseb> IdleOne: add/remove in pre 9.10 is what a  lot of us would tell new users to go into to get some program,  or well use the commands.   Synaptic is good for people with some experience, but also new  new users really.  You agree?
[05:00] <liquid> sebsebseb: yes, for thouse who need to see Everything
[05:00] <IdleOne> sebsebseb: Synaptic I think is friendly enough even for new users.
[05:00] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, I'm very enthusiastic about Ubuntu, yes. I love DBus and I love Telepathy. I think they'll change the way we consider our computers.
[05:00] <sebsebseb> IdleOne: yep same here
[05:00] <i_is_broke> ok, back to them using my desktop, if kdewallet is open, would that give them access to roots password?
[05:00] <IdleOne> Software Center just is not ready, can only install one app at a time
[05:00] <XiXaQ> IdleOne, that's not true,.
[05:00] <XiXaQ> IdleOne, you can install several applications at the same time.
[05:01] <IdleOne> XiXaQ: really? not from what I saw
[05:01] <i_is_broke> i dont know i have never used it.
[05:01] <sebsebseb> Software Centre only replaces add/remove now, and yes it looks better,  and I guess when it replaces Synaptic as the default, it will be quite useable and good looking.  Which reminds me,  it's not just right click on a program and install in the software centre in 9.10.
[05:01] <XiXaQ> IdleOne, try again. You're used to appinstall.
[05:01] <liquid> Yep, it does i sequntialy and you can stack em
[05:01]  * IdleOne will try again
[05:02] <Ketsuban> Telepathy seems to like a case of architecture astronautics to me. If both people have Telepathy then you can share your desktop to them, great - but none of my friends have Telepathy because they don't run Linux. In that respect, I find Pidgin more useful because it's more feature-rich - Empathy by contrast feels extremely barren.
[05:02] <XiXaQ> Ketsuban, hmm. I thought Pidgin couldn't even do voice and video with Windows users?
[05:02] <XiXaQ> Empathy does that right out of the box.
[05:02] <IdleOne> I stand corrected
[05:03] <liquid> Ketsuban: there's always gchat and such  untill empathy fills the gaps
[05:03] <IdleOne> but it is not intuitive
[05:03] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: If I remember correctly Pidgin can now do web cam with Jabber.
[05:03] <sebsebseb> Jabber/GoogleTalk
[05:03] <ba3> hello?
[05:03] <XiXaQ> IdleOne, I think it is. However, you're used to appinstall, which was different. Don't confuse habit with intuitiveness.
[05:03] <sebsebseb>   /Gmail
[05:03] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, Empathy does the same thing over MSN and SIP as well.
[05:03] <Ketsuban> XiXaQ: I wasn't talking about Voice/Video (which is in progress for Windows at the moment).
[05:03] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: AMSN can do web cams
[05:04] <Ketsuban> But most of my friends don't use Pidgin either, so that's kinda a moot point. For VoIP we use Skype.
[05:04] <ba3> bord
[05:04] <IdleOne> XiXaQ: maybe they should add a tab " To be installed"
[05:04] <IdleOne> after selecting apps
[05:04] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: just like that closed source Mercury Messenger can if I remember correctly,  made by one guy, and written in Java app, Can do most MSN features and it's own stuff, and the program might be a bit buggy.
[05:05] <IdleOne> How do I remove a package now?
[05:05] <liquid> sudo apt-get remove (package)
[05:05] <IdleOne> I know that lol
[05:05] <IdleOne> I meant in the Soft Center
[05:05] <liquid> idleone: just find it
[05:05] <liquid> idleone: and click uninstall
[05:06] <IdleOne> there is no uninstall option
[05:06] <liquid> double click
[05:06] <sebsebseb> IdleOne: exactly, which is  the point I made earlier basically, except for install
[05:06] <IdleOne> ahh ok I have to go to the Installed Software tab
[05:06] <sebsebseb> it's not that easy to install a program in int
[05:07] <liquid> cherry *i hope they notice me changing my name and kick me*
[05:07] <sebsebseb> you can't just right click on the program and install
[05:07] <sebsebseb> you have to get the program details showing and the button showing when doing that, or whatever
[05:07] <liquid> IdleOne: instead of install there will be an unintsall
[05:08] <IdleOne> liquid: are we talking about the same thing?
[05:08] <sebsebseb> oh I was going to install a program with software centre, but  used Synaptic instead or just the command.  I wasn't on Karmic for long before getting rid of it, because of a few things that are actsaualley features as well.  Other computer is on 9.04 for now.   I am looking forward to a development version of Lucid that has most/all of the features, so I can try early.
[05:08] <liquid> IdleOne: software center?
[05:08] <IdleOne> liquid: yup
[05:09] <sebsebseb> I have alpha 1 in a virtual machine.
[05:09] <XiXaQ> I didn't mean to talk negatively about Pidgin. Quite the contrary, I'm active in the Pidgin community and I love the software. It's a great IM application, and that was my point: if we only wanted an IM application, then I would have been in strong opposition to replacing Pidgin. But we don't. We want more. Telepathy provides it, making Empathy the logical choice.
[05:09] <liquid> uninstall = remove
[05:09] <IdleOne> double clicking the app takes me to a window with install and website buttons
[05:09] <sebsebseb> Mandriva One 2010 as host at the moment :)
[05:10] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: depends on how it is done, but sometimes negative feedback can be good, and to the actsual developers
[05:10] <liquid> cherry: please stop
[05:10] <bjsnider> kick the troll
[05:11] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, of course. But Pidgin isn't designed to do what Telepathy is designed to do and it shouldn't aspire to do so either. It's a great IM application and that's what it is.
[05:11] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: correction, the geeks and that want all those extra features,  the average Ubuntu user probably doesn't, because they don't know about the features.
[05:12] <sebsebseb> liquid: What did they do?
[05:12] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, I disagree. Especially to the average user, being able to click on a contact and select a choice, is very much what they want to do. They don't want to mess with their router, set up special applications and do networking stuff just in order to communicate with someone.
[05:12] <liquid> sebsebseb: she keeps changing her nick
[05:13] <sebsebseb> liquid: I saw one, but then I saw more when I looked above
[05:13] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: well sure
[05:14] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: well yeah, anyway as I  put before I haven't used Empathy recently, and when I did it was only for IM.
[05:14] <i_is_broke> i guess thats all i tried to do to was im..so maybe after everything calms down with lucid a bit i will reinstall it and look at it more closely..
[05:15] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, wouldn't it be nice to actually surf the net with someone who's far away? Right click the name and select "Share Firefox" and you then if you click somewhere, your contact also opens the same link, so you see the same page. Then, at the same time, over the same connection, you use your microphone and discuss what you're seeing. This is communication!
[05:15] <liquid> XiXaQ: well dynamic dns dosen't help either, maybe ubuntu could provide dynamic name resolution as a service so people could easily host files?
[05:15] <babyboop> what r u talkin bout/.
[05:16] <liquid> dynamic ip i mean*
[05:16] <XiXaQ> liquid, if you're tring to share files with a spesific user, you should do that by clicking the name of the contact and select the folder to share. Dynamic DNS? Come on :>
[05:17] <liquid> i'm thinking a little more long term... :p
[05:17] <XiXaQ> you shouldn't have to know their IP. You already have a connection to them. You should be able to connect to _people_ and not just _computers_. That's what makes Telepathy cool, imho.
[05:17] <XiXaQ> if I had to know the IP of all the people I talk to in a day, I'd stop talking.
[05:18] <Ketsuban> If I want them to see what I have in my browser window, I copypaste the link and send it.
[05:18] <liquid> well of course thats handled by the os/app
[05:18] <Ketsuban> :P
[05:18] <XiXaQ> Ketsuban, wow.. That's... Very 80s of you :)
[05:18] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: stuff like that can already be done
[05:19] <liquid> thats one of the reasons you can't directly share you desktop for exp.
[05:19] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: well you can already share your desktop over the  Internet with someone I mean
[05:19] <bjsnider> sounds like a huge pri\vacy violation to me
[05:19] <XiXaQ> Ketsuban, we used to do that in the mid 80s, actually. We'd dial up to a BBS and browse the content. Then, we'd phone our friends and tell them about it. :>
[05:19] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, that's a weird thing to say. Why shouldn't I be allowed to show someone what I do?
[05:20] <bjsnider> why shoud you want to
[05:20] <liquid> well you can, but you have to use a third party
[05:20] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, uh.. I have co-workers?
[05:20] <XiXaQ> liquid, that's ugly. It should be built right in.
[05:20] <IdleOne> bjsnider: it's not like I can connect to your app without your permission. Telepathy will allow you to share your browser with me and let me control the browser but only with your permission
[05:20] <liquid> im clients for example are a third party
[05:21] <liquid> google* aim*
[05:21] <bjsnider> IdleOne, whatcouldpossiblygowrong
[05:21] <RAOF> In fact, it's not like I can connect to your app without you *explicitly* sending a "please connect to my app" invitation.
[05:21] <IdleOne> bjsnider: security has to be built in of course
[05:21] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, why is automatic sharing of links more dangerous than manually copying and pasting them, or sending them though the snail mail postal service?
[05:22] <liquid> its not
[05:22] <IdleOne> you allow cert privs to the user to control the app. root access is NEVER given by defaultr
[05:22] <XiXaQ> no, it isn't.
[05:22] <IdleOne> certain*
[05:22] <bjsnider> famous last words
[05:22] <XiXaQ> actually, it'd be very difficult for an average user to give root access over Telepathy.
[05:22] <babyboop> h3ll0?
[05:22] <liquid> ssh
[05:23] <babyboop> who?
[05:23] <IdleOne> haha
[05:23] <i_is_broke> well it sounds like it would have to be nearly idiot proof...
[05:23] <XiXaQ> yes. SSH over Telepathy is something I'm looking forward to. People are working on that now.
[05:23] <liquid> double answer :p
[05:23] <babyboop> y ssh 4???
[05:24] <bjsnider> what would happen if you gave control of your browser to someone masquerading as a trusted friend?
[05:24] <XiXaQ> I have several friends I'd like to help over the internet, but cannot, since it's way too complicated. If they could just right click my name and "Give terminal access", then it'd be easy.
[05:24] <liquid> your browser dosen't run as root
[05:24] <IdleOne> babyboop: ssh is a transport protocol. not ssh as in shush
[05:24] <IdleOne> :)
[05:24] <bjsnider> IdleOne, don't talk to the troll
[05:24] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, I don't understand the problem.
[05:25] <babyboop> r u trying 2 be nice or mean?
[05:25] <IdleOne> !u
[05:25] <IdleOne> bjsnider: i'm not convinced she is a troll
[05:25] <bjsnider> she is
[05:25] <XiXaQ> I'm not convinced the troll is a she.
[05:25] <liquid> she probably just want to make love with one of us sexy nerds
[05:26] <babyboop> i no i dont use proper english 4 some reason?
[05:26] <IdleOne> liquid: yeah, good luck with that lol
[05:26] <bjsnider> this is not a street corner in thailand
[05:26] <IdleOne> alright let's keep the comments family friendly please
[05:26] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, but why would it be more dangerous to send a link over IM to the wrong person than sending it over email?
[05:26] <IdleOne> troll or not we still act civil
[05:27] <XiXaQ> good one, IdleOne. :]
[05:28] <liquid> XiXaQ: well it really depends wich reciving application is more secure
[05:28] <bjsnider> it would be more dangerous to give control of your browser to a "wrong person" than sending a link
[05:28] <liquid> XiXaq: Firefox or Empathy, but both run with out root
[05:28] <babyboop> some body talk 2 me?
[05:28] <IdleOne> XiXaQ: I assume anytime you would select a contact and share Desktop for example there would be the option to Allow user to Control or View Only
[05:28] <bjsnider> with control of the browser they could destroy all userland files
[05:29] <IdleOne> bjsnider: it would be like allowing guest access. they can read files but not modify
[05:29] <liquid> but the beauty of that is the system is still intact an that other users shouldn't be effected
[05:29] <IdleOne> the amount of control is left up to you
[05:29] <DanaG> ssh != shh
[05:29] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, in any case, I think I would recognize the voice of my girlfriend in anycase. I don't ever want to assume that nothing is possible because everything can be abused.
[05:29] <DanaG> =þ
[05:29] <IdleOne> DanaG: indeed it is not :)
[05:29] <RAOF> bjsnider: That's right, but are you arguing that handing out remote access should be _impossible_?
[05:30] <bjsnider> IdleOne, i'd like to reiterate whatcouldpossiblygowrong
[05:30] <babyboop> bord ashell???
[05:30] <DanaG> I wish Ubuntu had an "install updates and shut down" button.
[05:30] <RAOF> Because there are some fairly big use-cases for, in fact, handing out remote access.
[05:30] <babyboop> ord ashell???
[05:30] <IdleOne> bjsnider: yeah things can be abused, of course.
[05:30] <babyboop> kljklj
[05:30] <babyboop> wtf
[05:30] <i_is_broke> would someone please boot the troll?
[05:30] <bjsnider> RAOF, i think it should be hard rather than easy
[05:30] <IdleOne> babyboop: you are acting like a child. please stop
[05:31] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, then you don't want to have the ability to just show your desktop to someone you know is the right person, because if you instead had given them control over your computer, and if they were someone else, then you might have had problems? You're looking for problems where none exist, my friend. :)
[05:31] <DanaG> I wish Ubuntu had a way to do the remote-assistance thing to non-Pro Windows.
[05:31] <RAOF> bjsnider: But that doesn't work when what you want to do is provide remote assistance.
[05:31] <XiXaQ> DanaG, what does that mean?
[05:31] <bjsnider> XiXaQ, well that's certainly...your view
[05:31] <IdleOne> DanaG: that's a windows issue not ubuntu?
[05:31] <babyboop> that was my son
[05:32] <IdleOne> babyboop: how old is your son?
[05:32] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, yes, I still don't understand why you would trust a connection with anything at all, if you didn't trust the connection. And vice versa.
[05:32] <DanaG> Well, remote-assistance is not the same as remote-desktop (rdp). :(
[05:32] <bjsnider> RAOF, you're inn tlephone contact with such a person at the time
[05:32] <RAOF> This was a recurring theme on an ubuntu-devel-discus@ thread about making server administration easier.  "It shouldn't be easy to administer a server, because then people who don't have a deep knowledge of server administration will administer servers & they'll have problems".
[05:32] <babyboop> 2
[05:32] <liquid> XiXaQ:https://secure.logmein.com/US/home.aspx
[05:33] <babyboop> y?
[05:33] <IdleOne> !y
[05:33] <XiXaQ> liquid?
[05:33] <liquid> XiXaQ: its a program to allow remote access between computers, met to send it to someone else
[05:33] <RAOF> bjsnider: So?
[05:34] <liquid> RAOF: agreed
[05:34] <bjsnider> RAOF, presumably you trust the person you're conceding desktop control to
[05:35] <XiXaQ> liquid, yes and extremely complicated in comparison to what Ubuntu has built-in right now.
[05:35] <RAOF> bjsnider: So, rather than saying "now, open up an IM conversation with me and hit the 'share my desktop' button", you'd prefer that I'd have to explain a bunch of stuff, get the helpee to find their IP address, forward the appropriate ports in their router...
[05:35] <bjsnider> well, that's two extremnes there
[05:35] <bjsnider> the former is too easy and the latter is too hard
[05:35] <RAOF> So, if you trust the person you're conceding desktop control to, why object to the existence of a "concede desktop control to this person" button?
[05:36] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, too easy?
[05:36] <RAOF> I disagree with the premise that an action can be too easy.
[05:36] <XiXaQ> I do too.
[05:36] <IdleOne> that button will also come with a popup explaining the possible risk of doing so
[05:36] <XiXaQ> easy does not mean insecure.
[05:36] <babyboop> ldleOne y did u ask how old my son iz?
[05:37] <IdleOne> babypoop, was curious
[05:37] <IdleOne> babyboop*
[05:37] <XiXaQ> hehehe
[05:37] <IdleOne> :)
[05:37] <XiXaQ> IdleOne, is that what they call a freudian mistype? :>
[05:37] <bjsnider> RAOF, an action can't be too easy?
[05:37] <IdleOne> XiXaQ: yup, something like that
[05:38] <RAOF> bjsnider: An action that you want to perform can't be too easy.
[05:38] <RAOF> bjsnider: A computer is a tool for doing stuff.  If what I want to do is X, I want the computer to make X _as easy as possible_.
[05:38] <liquid> RAOF: but in the end the user is in control
[05:38] <bjsnider> then why are there spambots out there with 250k or more zombie computers driving them having been infected by users doing easy things?
[05:39] <XiXaQ> it can be too easy if you can do it without meaning to do it, like tapping the touchpad results in a click.
[05:39] <IdleOne> bjsnider: because windows user tend to not be careful about who they allow access
[05:39] <liquid> bjsinder: they are tools to hid the cheaters
[05:40] <RAOF> Because it's _hard_ to distinguish between safe and unsafe things.
[05:40] <IdleOne> We need to get out of the mind set that Linux should be hard.
[05:40] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, because Windows up till very recently gave the first user administrator right by default, without guarding it in any way and without explaining the danger to the user.
[05:40] <bjsnider> i don't want usability to get so easy you can blow up the world by hitting a red button by accident
[05:40] <IdleOne> Linux should be easy to use and safe. other OS'es have made things easy by sacrificing security
[05:41] <liquid> It should be simple of course, but a thurow warning should be delt, and it shouldn't effect other users
[05:41] <bjsnider> i want there to be several difficult steps to take
[05:41] <RAOF> Why?
[05:41] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, you can't do that in Ubuntu. That's what the sudo mechanism is for.
[05:41] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, oh, ok. You want to reboot in order to gain root privileges, for instance, just to make it difficult?
[05:41] <RAOF> So, there seems to be two things here: "I want possibly insecure things to be difficult to do" and "I want it to be difficult to _accidentally_ do insecure things"
[05:42] <RAOF> I disagree with the first, and agree with the second.
[05:42] <XiXaQ> again, I second that.
[05:42] <bjsnider> RAOF, which one has resulted in those spambots?
[05:42] <RAOF> A combination of both.
[05:42] <i_is_broke> well i think for people who help people with their computers its a great idea.as far as the ones that will abuse it. well we know what and how they do things..
[05:42] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, no. Noone has ever proposed that Ubuntu should remove the sudo mechanism and run all applications as root, like Windows has done for the past decade.
[05:43] <bjsnider> vista removed that feature
[05:43] <bjsnider> or maybe i shouldn't call it a feature
[05:43] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, yes, and what's the percentage of spambots OS?
[05:43] <bjsnider> overwhelming percentage is xp systems
[05:43] <liquid> bjsnider: still, in windows, the user is not informed of what could go wrong
[05:44] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, right, so your point it moot.
[05:44] <RAOF> Actually, let me retract that.  I don't think the spambots are the result of _either_ possibly insecure things being easy to do _nor_ for it being easy to accidentally do insecure things.
[05:44] <bjsnider> most people still use xp
[05:44] <XiXaQ> but this has nothing to do with being able to share a link over IM.
[05:44] <RAOF> Malware, by and large, works by making the user _want_ to run whatever it is that the malware is.
[05:45] <bjsnider> it's social engineering attacks, yes
[05:45] <liquid> XiXaQ: for most cases it is safe to assume that sending a link is safe... clicking it is different, we are more discussing allowing someone else enviromental control of the os or root access
[05:45] <bjsnider> but if it was harder to do what the malware wants to user to do, then it would be less of a problem
[05:45] <RAOF> But the malware wants the user to run a program downloaded from the internet.
[05:46] <XiXaQ> liquid, no, actually. We were talking about sharing a display with a friend over an IM connection.
[05:46] <RAOF> You have to admit, this is actually something that many people legitimately want to do :)
[05:46] <liquid> yah "enviromental control"
[05:46] <XiXaQ> liquid, it's just bjsnider who are intent on making it a very dangerous security issue. It's not.
[05:47] <bjsnider> it's not a security issue to give control of your desktop to someone else in a remote location???
[05:47] <IdleOne> RAOF: I know that I would like to spend an hour or two watching what my son is looking at on the web, with his knowledge. it would be a nice way for me to spend some time with him being I am 700 miles away
[05:47] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, desktop? I never talked about a desktop or giving anyone control over my desktop.
[05:47] <liquid> yah i guess its not that big a deal, it really is you to blame.. assuming all this can be done with out root
[05:47] <RAOF> Not if that's _what you explicitly want to do_.
[05:47] <sebsebseb> bjsnider: the connection itself should be made to be secure, VNC over SSH for example
[05:47] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, but now that you mention it.. No, it's not.
[05:48] <bjsnider> RAOF, the user doesn't know what they want to do
[05:48] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, oh, so everyone is stupid?
[05:48] <RAOF> bjsnider: They've clicked a button which says "Share my desktop with this user".
[05:48] <XiXaQ> this is tiresome.
[05:48] <liquid> if root is required the only the real user should be allowed to grand such, otherwize share away.
[05:49] <XiXaQ> People should be able to connect to other people. The question is not if, the question is how. I believe Telepathy to be the best answer at this time.
[05:49] <XiXaQ> and that concludes my part of this discussion, I think :)
[05:49] <IdleOne> +1 XiXaQ
[05:49] <RAOF> bjsnider: If the user doesn't understand the implications of this, the solution isn't "Make it harder to share my desktop" because people will just follow longer, more convoluted, _less secure_ HOWTOs.  The solution is to make it obvious that the remote end will be able to control your desktop.
[05:49] <bjsnider> liquid, that is not how it works in vista. desktop sharing must be run as root
[05:49] <IdleOne> bjsnider: this is not Vista!
[05:50] <IdleOne> F Vista and how they do it
[05:50] <i_is_broke> oops nice language..lol
[05:50] <IdleOne> We can do it properly
[05:50] <IdleOne> sorry
[05:50] <i_is_broke> its ok..im old enough to hear it..lol
[05:50] <IdleOne> but comparing apples and oranges to make a point is ridiculous
[05:50] <bjsnider> RAOF, my theory is that they'll give up after a short time
[05:50] <i_is_broke> yes i agree.
[05:51] <liquid> btw is this really lucid +1 discussion :p
[05:51] <i_is_broke> not me, i didnt know the first thing about ssh, but i started reading about it, and learning and i can actually do it now..not to sure what i can do but i can do it.
[05:51] <RAOF> bjsnider: So, your solution is to make it impossible for users to recieve remote assistance?
[05:51] <IdleOne> liquid: we are discussing possible implementations of telepathy in +1 :)
[05:51] <liquid> IdleOne: oh
[05:52] <bjsnider> RAOF, somewhere between too easy and too hard
[05:52] <IdleOne> liquid: that is my story lol
[05:52] <RAOF> I still dispute the existence of "too easy" :)
[05:53] <DanaG> hmm, the way windows does remote-assistance is through "help and support" center.
[05:53] <DanaG> it lets you e-mail or IM an "invitation"
[05:53] <liquid> IdleOne: well if it really is a possibility of including it (assuming its fairly small package?) it should be added/ merged into empathy in someway
[05:53] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, why do you want it to be difficult instead of just making it secure?
[05:53] <DanaG> It's not directly through the IM app.
[05:53] <i_is_broke> well i work with a bunch of people on the g/f side of the family that dont know much about computers, i can see it being an  advantage for me in that aspect...
[05:53] <IdleOne> liquid: indeed and as XiXaQ mentioned there are people working on such things
[05:53] <bjsnider> XiXaQ, it cannot be secure
[05:53] <RAOF> IdleOne: Check out empathy right now.  It's implemented.
[05:54] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, please prove that.
[05:54] <RAOF> IdleOne: Open a conversation -> Contact -> "Share My Desktop".
[05:54] <IdleOne> RAOF: I haven't played with Empathy as I don't have any friends :(
[05:54] <RAOF> :)
[05:54] <IdleOne> will you be my friend?
[05:54] <IdleOne> hehe
[05:54] <XiXaQ> IdleOne, aww! You have one! :)
[05:54] <RAOF> bjsnider: Remote access *cannot* be secure?
[05:54] <bjsnider> no.
[05:55] <DanaG> I don't like the idea of it being chat app -> remote access.  Perhaps make it chat app -> tell person to go to 'help and support' -> send invitation.
[05:55] <i_is_broke> bjsnider, why?
[05:55] <RAOF> Well, I guess I can accept that.  A network-connected computer is not secure.
[05:55] <i_is_broke> and im not trying to be a smart elic, i just am curious to why you said that?
[05:55] <bjsnider> giving control of your system to someone else is never secure
[05:55] <RAOF> I don't think that's a useful level of security to aim for, because I'd like to actually use my computer.
[05:55] <DanaG>  <"your mom" joke>
[05:56] <IdleOne> easy does not mean insecure. it can be rock solid and easy at the same time. the regular end user does not want to learn about port forwarding and ssh and vnc. they want to be able to click and do stuff fast. The devs need to make sure that it is secure.
[05:56] <IdleOne> and lucky for us it is all FOSS so people can make sure it is secure
[05:56] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, it's not useful to be so extreme. I'm very glad Google gives me access to their computer, for instance, and I don't think they fear me very much.
[05:57] <liquid> The user should be aware that it is more then just chat, thus I would reccomend it in the administration, however.. maybe a link to it from empathy?
[05:57] <RAOF> bjsnider: I don't think that a definition of "security" which makes it impossible for work to be done is a useful definition.
[05:57] <bjsnider> it's impossible to do work without giving up direct control of your system?
[05:58] <bjsnider> i don't see why
[05:58] <RAOF> Because the work that I want to do involves giving remote access to a known agent.
[05:58] <RAOF> There are all sorts of interesting security things to talk about here, though.  How do I know that the person I'm talking to is _actually_ the person I'm thinking of?  Can 3rd parties see this conversation?  Can 3rd parties influence this conversation, etc.
[05:59] <bjsnider> i'm fairly certain that you could implement complex procedures to accomplish that task
[05:59] <RAOF> Right.  I _could_ fly out to Whoopwhooop.
[06:00] <IdleOne> and get some WhatWhat
[06:00] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, ssh username@address <-- it's very easy, isn't it? Do you propose that we make it more difficult?
[06:00] <RAOF> Security is a spectrum.  A network-connected computer is not secure.  A computer to which others have physical access is not secure.
[06:01] <RAOF> That doesn't mean that I don't want my laptop to connect to the Internet.
[06:01] <bjsnider> XiXaQ, ssh is hard enough to scare off people who shouldn't be using it
[06:01] <i_is_broke> if you want your computer to be secure, dont hook it to the net.
[06:01] <RAOF> bjsnider: There is no "shouldn't be using it".
[06:01] <RAOF> "It should be difficult, otherwise the plebs might be able to use it inappropriately" is not security.
[06:02] <bjsnider> hahaa, well, we've got a difference of opinion on that, no question.
[06:02] <RAOF> The computer should _never_ prevent me from doing something that I deliberately want to do.
[06:02] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, well. We disagree. I think it should be easy to talk to other people, even if not all words should be spoken.
[06:03] <RAOF> I want to share my desktop with one of my contacts; making this hard to do does _not_ make it more secure, just more frustrating.
[06:03] <bjsnider> computers are too easy for the uninitiated to use
[06:04] <RAOF> While being too _difficult_ to use safely, yes.
[06:04] <i_is_broke> now will this telepathy let you connect to anyones desktop or does it have to be someone else running linux?can it be done with osx,or windows?
[06:05] <RAOF> i_is_broke: It'll only work between telepathy clients, IIUC.  The underlying technology is VNC, though, for which windows & OSX clients exist.
[06:05] <XiXaQ> bjsnider, then, it sounds to me, you believe in security by obscurity?
[06:06] <i_is_broke> ok, so i would have to install all of that on a windows box to connect to it in the first place..gotchya...
[06:06] <IdleOne> let's say I don't have a webcam but the person I am talking does. They could turn on the cam and a window opens with them in it, they then share the desktop with me and I can look at them threw their desktop?
[06:06] <bjsnider> i think osx and gnome have good design philosophies where they hide dangerous or obscure features and keep the simple stuff out in the open
[06:06] <XiXaQ> i_is_broke, telepathy enables you to make a channel (Tube) to a contact. These tubes can be used for anything a normal inet socket can be used for, but you don't have to consider DNS or routing at all.
[06:07] <i_is_broke> i get it.
[06:07] <bjsnider> so if you really want to set up desktop sharing, you an't just click a button. you have to learn about it and educate yourself so you can use it with some degree of safety
[06:08] <i_is_broke> well considering i take care of my whole family's computers, it would be something i would want to learn.
[06:12] <RAOF> bjsnider: The problem with "educate yourself" is that people end up following the first howto on google.  They're not _interested_ in how to use it with safety, they just want to use their computer as a tool.
[06:13] <RAOF> And howtos on google end up old, obsolete, are of variable quality, people don't necessarily read the caveats, people don't necessarily *understand* the commands, etc.
[06:14] <RAOF> In short, if you're relying on random howtos on the net in order to provide security, you've lost.
[06:30] <liquid> RAOF: but its the thought that counts
[06:54] <sebsebseb> ok just caught up, since I went away when the discussion was still on
[06:54] <sebsebseb> who is still here?
[06:54] <sebsebseb> got a few questions myself for the topic
[06:55] <sebsebseb> RAOF: IdleOne  bjsnider  XiXaQ
[06:56] <sebsebseb> still about?
[07:01] <RAOF> sebsebseb: Ask the question; that's the way it works :)
[07:02] <sebsebseb> Using this stuff to remote connect with people you know right,  but it could also be done with strangers from the Internet.  Which could be rather useful to help them with something.  However who is being remote connected to?  What computer is being remote connected to?  Is it ok to remote connect to people from the net that you don't know, as long as you don't do anything bad when in?  etc
[07:03] <RAOF> sebsebseb: If someone invites you, then yes, certainly.  Why wouldn't it be OK?
[07:04] <RAOF> sebsebseb: The person who sends the "please connect remotely to my machine" is the person whose computer is remotely connected to.
[07:04] <sebsebseb> yes
[07:04] <sebsebseb> ,but does age matter for example?
[07:05] <RAOF> As in: should you only attempt to help someone in that way if you know they're over the age of consent?
[07:07] <RAOF> I don't think that's a very helpful question, because it's not something that I can know.
[07:07] <sebsebseb> RAOF: well there are ages for loads of stuff,  for example to register on Freenode your meant to be 13 years or over
[07:08] <RAOF> Right, but that's obviously unenforced.
[07:08] <RAOF> That's there for legal reasons, I'm sure.
[07:10] <RAOF> If you're suggesting that there should be parental controls available for desktop sharing, then that seems reasonable.
[07:11] <sebsebseb> RAOF: exactly legal stuff,  and I guess there is that when it comes to remote connecting as well,  but if there is that,  I don't know what it is exactly.  I do  assume though that people can maybe get in trouble if doing something bad, when remote connected to someones computer
[07:12] <RAOF> Possibly?  That's going to be juristiction-dependent, and I don't think it's a particularly interesting question.
[07:12] <RAOF> Yes, you can do illegal stuff if someone invites you into their house.
[07:12] <KB1JWQ> Not always.
[07:12]  * KB1JWQ consults handy reference lawyer
[07:13] <sebsebseb> As for young children having Internet access at home,  I guess that really the parents or parental guardian should be responsible for them being safe online at home.
[07:14] <RAOF> Right.  Having remote access to their system is not particularly more dangerous than talking to them online :)
[07:14] <sebsebseb> and if anything bad happens as a result of the child having Internet access,  the parant or parental guardian is to blame.
[07:14] <RAOF> KB1JWQ: I'd be surprised if you can find a juristiction in which being invited into someone's house gives you the legal right to burn it down :)
[07:15] <sebsebseb> It's the Internet, differnet counteries have different laws, and you can also remote connect people that are in a differnet countrey.
[07:15] <sebsebseb> RAOF: bingo
[07:16] <sebsebseb> just like with remote connecting,  it's ok really,  as long as you don't do anything bad/malicious when in?
[07:17] <RAOF> Morally?  Yes, that's how I'd treat it.
[07:17] <sebsebseb> ,but legally would depend on countrey and so on?
[07:19] <sebsebseb> this kind of stuff is getting a bit more public I think actsauly,  not that long ago I saw an advert on the TV for something that was commercial and paid for, so  people for example could remote connect to their home, from work
[07:19] <sebsebseb> plus operating systems having some kind of remote connect software with them
[07:21] <sebsebseb> a lot of people will still be afraid to give people they don't know access to their computer though, but as was already discussed, remote connecting can be rather useful at times
[07:22] <sebsebseb> afraid since all that hacker stuff in the media,  really it's called cracker, but the media use the wrong term
[07:23] <sebsebseb> RAOF:  KB1JWQ Any comments?
[07:24] <KB1JWQ> sebsebseb: Usually I tend to keep my commentary to myself. :-)
[07:28] <sebsebseb> RAOF: My bingo comment earlier was  a response to your comment to KB1JWQ  regarding house being burnt down,  just wanted to be clear
[07:29] <sebsebseb> comment/message
[07:41] <sebsebseb> RAOF:  Going back to your comment earlier, parental controls for remote connecting could be rather useful in the future, but right now most computer users don't even know about remote connecting.
[08:31] <XiXaQ> sebsebseb, yes, that's one good thing about sharing desktop using Telepathy. You don't open a general port. You allow for one single connection. When it's broken, you have to reopen the connection. The normal way you do it, is to enable remote desktop and then set a password. If you forget to deactivate it, then it stays available.
[08:32] <XiXaQ> ... I should have been asleep many, many hours ago :|
[08:32] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: same here in a way
[08:35] <sebsebseb> XiXaQ: that sounds like the insecure way,  not VNC over SSH
[08:36] <sebsebseb> where something might get left open
[08:39] <sebsebseb> with SSH first a SSH account needs to be connected to. then VNC can be tunneled
[08:45] <DanaG> ugh, my screen keeps randomly blinking.
[10:00] <BUGabundo_work> morning
[10:01] <BUGabundo_work> Shuttleworth steps down as Ubuntu CEO
[10:01] <BUGabundo_work> so why didnt any one told me yet ?
[10:01] <BUGabundo_work> heeh
[10:26] <AlanBell> morning
[10:31] <ikonia> hello AlanBell
[10:31] <ikonia> BUGabundo_work:where is your source for that information
[10:33] <BUGabundo_work> ikonia: sec
[10:33] <BUGabundo_work> ikonia: http://blogs.computerworld.com/15275/shuttleworth_steps_down_as_ubuntu_ceo
[10:33] <ikonia> ah, thats the one I'm reading also, maybe a good topic for #ubuntu-offtopic
[10:35] <AlanBell> http://markshuttleworth.com is the best source
[10:36] <AlanBell> and also read the interview in the first link of Mark's post
[10:36] <ikonia> looks a good topic for #ubuntu-offtopic rather than here
[10:36] <AlanBell> agreed
[12:09] <knittl> hi
[12:09] <knittl> i upgraded to lucid a few days ago … and i still have no sound
[12:09] <knittl> known problem?
[12:14] <Ian_Corne> are you sure you driver is loaded?
[12:14] <Ian_Corne> i saw some1 saying a day ago or so that the driver simply wasn't loaded
[12:14] <knittl> Ian_Corne: i don't know. but checking now
[12:14] <knittl> i can see the volume in pavucontrol
[12:15] <knittl> oh … speaker volume was 0
[12:15] <knittl> there's no way to set it with the new volume control =/
[12:54] <soee> hi
[13:03] <BUGabundo_work> knittl: yes, i have the same problem, sound is always MUTEd on boot
[13:03] <knittl> BUGabundo_work: always?
[13:04] <knittl> sucks :D
[13:04] <knittl> but i found the reason, so it's not a big a deal
[13:04] <BUGabundo_work> knittl: *always*
[13:04] <BUGabundo_work> i just increase it , when i need it
[13:04] <knittl> ok
[13:05] <knittl> will lucid include the 2.6.33 kernel on final release?
[13:05] <knittl> or will they stay with 2.6.32
[13:05] <BUGabundo_work> prob 33
[13:05] <BUGabundo_work> ask on #ubuntu-kernel
[13:06] <knittl> not that important
[13:07] <knittl> where can i get working nvidia drivers for lucid?
[13:18] <kavurt> has anybody installed kubuntu? install icon doesn't work here
[13:21] <bjsnider> knittl, try the nvidia-vdpau ppa
[13:22] <bjsnider> the 195 driver specifically
[13:24] <knittl> bjsnider: ok, i'm adding it right now
[13:24] <knittl> 195 you say? great :>
[13:25] <knittl> :( it wants to remove ubuntu-desktop and xserver-xorg*
[13:26] <bjsnider> does it really?
[13:26] <BUGabundo_work> DONT
[13:27] <knittl> BUGabundo_work: don't worry, i won't ;)
[13:27] <bjsnider> i just copied the binaries from the karmic build. let me build it against the lucid packages
[13:27] <knittl> although ubuntu-desktop is just a virtual package as i understood
[13:29] <bjsnider> it's attached to the xserver-xorg stuff, so that's why
[13:30] <BUGabundo_work> knittl: yes
[13:30] <BUGabundo_work> but along devel cycle, not having it will lead to a very confusing system
[13:32] <knittl> jup, ok
[13:37] <bjsnider> knittl, amd64 or i386?
[13:37] <knittl> i386
[13:37] <bjsnider> ???
[13:37] <knittl> hu?
[13:38] <bjsnider> nobody's on i386 anymore
[13:38] <bjsnider> it's an outrage
[13:38] <knittl> i have an core 2 duo, but use a 32 bit operating system
[13:38] <knittl> i figured this counst as i386
[13:39] <bjsnider> if i was linus, i'd be cursing you out for being a luddite
[13:39] <knittl> are you linus? :P
[13:40] <knittl> tell me about direct advantages of amd64 over i386
[13:40] <knittl> i never really informed myself on the topic
[13:40] <bjsnider> i'm not linus, no
[13:41] <bjsnider> but whent he graphics guys tried importing gem into the kernel, he chewed them out for not using amd64
[13:41] <bjsnider> build successful. packages being published now
[13:41] <knittl> cool :)
[13:42] <bjsnider> finished
[13:42] <bjsnider> refresh your sources and try again
[13:42] <bjsnider> the packages are so new they have steam coming off them
[13:42] <knittl> awesome :)
[13:43] <knittl> ok, looks great
[13:43] <bjsnider> kind if curious to see if this works. the 195 driver is almost twice the size of the previous ones for reasons unknown
[13:44] <bjsnider> my theory is the new one contains secret state dept. records or something
[13:44] <knittl> i'll reboot and then i can tell you
[13:45] <knittl> brb
[13:45] <knittl> no wait …
[13:46] <knittl> http://paste2.org/p/567789
[13:47] <bjsnider> run the command dkms status
[13:50] <knittl> nothing happens
[13:51] <knittl> exit code 0
[13:52] <bjsnider> dkms status results in exit code 0?
[13:52] <knittl> yes
[13:53] <knittl> $ dkms stats; echo $?
[13:53] <knittl> 0
[13:55] <bjsnider> just type dkms status, without anything else
[13:55] <knittl> i did
[13:55] <knittl> no output whatsoever
[13:59] <bjsnider> knittl, ok, there was a slight issue with a script in here. hold on a few minutes
[14:00] <knittl> no problem
[14:02] <bjsnider> updating to a new driver line, from say 190 to 195 requires that every reference to "190" in the 46 or so files in the debian directory be replaced with the new number, which in this case is 195. sometimes there are oversights
[14:02] <knittl> find -print0 | xargs -0 sed -i 's/190/195'
[14:02] <knittl> ;)
[14:03] <bjsnider> not that simple though
[14:03] <bjsnider> the control file requires some to be changed and others not
[14:03] <bjsnider> and then in some cases the full numbers are used, like 195.22 for instance
[14:03] <bjsnider> it's a total mess
[14:04] <knittl> sounds like
[14:06] <bjsnider> alright, this is going to take a half hour, possibly more. the builds have been queued
[14:06] <knittl> no problem, i can wait
[14:06] <knittl> thanks for your help
[14:51] <bjsnider> knittl, give it another try
[15:02]  * BUGabundo_work pins mac_v to the #
[15:03] <mac_v> BUGabundo_work: hey ;)  what did i do :P
[15:04] <mac_v> was just testing a gnome-session bug , wm just wont start on their own :/
[15:14] <knittl> bjsnider: ok
[15:16] <knittl> ok, it went through without error messages
[15:17]  * knittl rebooting
[15:22] <knittl> complains about no valid video driver/configuration or something along those lines
[15:22] <knittl> if i choose to start in low graphics mode i have the vesa driver again (with full resolution though)
[15:27] <falktx> hi, I have a question
[15:27] <falktx> i'm using lucid
[15:28] <falktx> but i'm having real trouble using copy-paste
[15:28] <falktx> everytime I select an area,
[15:28] <falktx> that area becames "auto-copied"
[15:28] <falktx> so I have to delete all the sentence in order to replace it
[15:29] <falktx> is that a known bug, or it just happens with me?
[15:29] <BUGabundo_work> falktx: what??
[15:29] <BUGabundo_work> everytime u select anything its copied to memory
[15:29] <BUGabundo_work> thats a X and WM feature
[15:30] <BUGabundo_work> been like that for years
[15:30] <falktx> let me explain better
[15:30] <falktx> I type something
[15:30] <falktx> I select all I've typed
[15:31] <falktx> than cut
[15:31] <falktx> I write some other things
[15:31] <falktx> and select them all
[15:31] <falktx> when I ctrl+V
[15:31] <falktx> instead of the old copied text pasted,
[15:31] <falktx> the text remains the same
[15:32] <falktx> if I delete the text and ctrl+V
[15:32] <falktx> the second text I typed (but not copied), will be "pasted"
[15:33] <yofel> falktx: kde?
[15:35] <falktx> yes
[15:35] <falktx> i guess you know about it
[15:36] <yofel> falktx: open the klipper configuration and enable 'Ignore Selection'
[15:37] <falktx> oh..
[15:38] <falktx> why was it like that?
[15:38] <falktx> (many thanks! that worked!!)
[15:39] <yofel> no idea, I was really confused at first too...
[15:39] <falktx> has kde been informed already?
[15:51] <yofel> falktx: seems like that was a kde decision
[15:56] <falktx> i don't like it... and I think most user will just "WTF"
[16:06] <yofel> falktx: +1, talked to the folks in kubuntu-devel, they don't really like it either
[16:20] <knittl> hm strange. i'm getting a segmentation fault after choosing the kernel in grub
[16:20] <knittl> plus X won't start anymore -.-
[16:20] <falktx> not with me
[16:21] <falktx> I just booted 1 hour ago
[16:21] <falktx> 2.6.32-8?
[16:21] <knittl> jep
[16:21] <knittl> falktx: but i tried to install a new version of nvidia driver
[16:22] <knittl> i'm in a root shell right now
[16:27] <falktx> what's the output of "uname -m"?
[16:28] <falktx> "uname -a", instead
[16:28] <BluesKaj> Hiyas
[16:29] <knittl> linux $name 2.6.33-8 .... .. i686
[16:29] <knittl> but i'll try another reboot
[16:29] <knittl> screen isn't working either so i'm restricted to a single shell, which sucks ...
[16:29] <yofel> knittl: it you want to temporary use nv instead of nvidia, rename xorg.conf into something else
[16:29] <falktx> select the option "recovery mode"
[16:29] <knittl> yofel: i don't have an xorg.conf at the moment
[16:30] <knittl> falktx: that's what i'm in right now
[16:30] <knittl> i also removed nvidia-glx-stuff
[16:30] <knittl> i'll try rebooting again, brb
[16:36] <knittl> hm, x still won't start
[16:36] <knittl> starting in console it says it can't load glx module
[16:37] <knittl> sucks balls
[16:38] <knittl> should i reinstall nvidia-glx-195? *g*
[16:41] <knittl> and yofel, i thought the new kernel will use nouveau? or was that the next one to be released? (2.6.33)
[16:42] <yofel> oh yeah, now that you mention it... not sure then if the default is right now, it should be nouveau for release
[16:42] <yofel> s/if/what
[16:43] <yofel> check in your /var/log/Xorg.0.log what goes wrong and which driver you're using
[16:44] <knittl> failed to load module glx (module does not exist, 0)
[16:45] <knittl> there are lines of an built-in configuration
[16:45] <knittl> with nv, vesa, fbdev
[16:46] <falktx> I can guess you're missing some packages
[16:46] <falktx> the one containing the driver X is trying to load
[16:46] <knittl> do you know which one those are?
[16:47] <falktx> you have to check X
[16:47] <falktx> run:
[16:47] <falktx> X &
[16:47] <falktx> then change to tty1 (ctrl+alt+F1)
[16:48] <falktx> it should tell what driver is missing
[16:48] <knittl> i can't find a driver name
[16:48] <knittl> only a backtrace
[16:49] <falktx> what about:
[16:49] <falktx> cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[16:50] <knittl> ok, seems to be NV
[16:51] <knittl> no
[16:51] <falktx> hm?
[16:51] <knittl> there's just a whole bunch of information
[16:51] <falktx> try:
[16:51] <knittl> and anywhere i find references to drivers i find nv, vesa und fbdev
[16:51] <falktx> sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-all
[16:52] <falktx> try the command then reboot
[16:52] <knittl> ok
[16:52] <knittl> no new packages to install
[16:54] <falktx> i guess you have to install nvidia-glx-*
[16:54] <falktx> but go for a stable version
[16:54] <falktx> (I don't use nvidia, so i'm not sure what version you need)
[16:55] <knittl> 195 should be the right one for lucid
[16:55] <knittl> and i'm still having segfaults right after grub
[16:56] <knittl> although the systems boots after a few seconds waiting
[16:56] <falktx> are you sure the segfaults are related to nv driver?
[16:57] <knittl> no
[16:57] <knittl> but i thought i'll mention them
[16:57] <knittl> and i know nv isn't working with current X version
[16:57] <knittl> it's in the list of known issues on ubuntu.com/testing
[16:57] <falktx> you can force the driver to vesa
[16:57] <falktx> 1024x768
[16:58] <falktx> if you don't mind until it gets fixed
[16:58] <knittl> before i had full resolution
[16:58] <knittl> must've been vesa
[16:58] <knittl> but with 1920x1200
[16:58] <falktx> you know how to do it?
[16:59] <BluesKaj> knittl, which nvidia card ?
[17:01] <BluesKaj> knittl, to find out ,in the terminal : lspci | grep VGA
[17:01] <knittl> BluesKaj: quadro fx 360M
[17:02] <knittl> falktx: i guess writing a custom xorg.conf
[17:02] <falktx> yes
[17:02] <falktx> you need help?
[17:03] <knittl> i can look it up with elinks ;)
[17:04] <BluesKaj> knittl, the nvidia-glx-190 is the driver you need
[17:04] <knittl> BluesKaj: oh?
[17:05] <BluesKaj> if you have an installed nvidia driver you have to remove while X is shut down
[17:05] <knittl> x won't start anyway ;)
[17:07] <BluesKaj> I assume you are running 32 bit , knittl
[17:09] <knittl> BluesKaj: yes, that is correct
[17:10] <BluesKaj> knittl, I used this procedure with success , http://www.pastebin.ca/1719599 .Give it a try , it worked on my 7600GT
[17:10] <knittl> copy paste using a sheet of paper *g*
[17:10] <yofel> falktx: if you're interested about the klipper selection, there was a pretty interesting discussion on kubuntu-devel right now: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/12/18/%23kubuntu-devel.html#t15:41
[17:11] <knittl> or my brain ... that works too :)
[17:12] <knittl> oh, 24 packages broken in aptitude ... meeen
[17:13] <BluesKaj> ok time for my walk , bbl
[17:13] <falktx> yofel: thanks, I hope they disabled it in time for karmic
[17:14] <yofel> well, the kde4.4 backports are the same as lucid right now
[17:14] <yofel> and kde4.3 had a different behaviour iirc
[17:27] <knittl> there is no nvidia 190 driver in my repositories
[17:30] <falktx> seems like it hasn't been pushed to Lucid yet
[17:30] <falktx> but there's nvidia-glx-185
[17:34] <knittl> yay, looks good :)
[17:34] <knittl> using 195 now
[18:01] <BluesKaj> knittl, there's a ppa here , sorry shudda posted it earlier https://edge.launchpad.net/~sevenmachines/+archive/nvidia
[18:02] <BluesKaj> knittl, bookmark it, just in case :)
[18:03] <BluesKaj> knittl, but I'm glad to hear the 195 worked out
[18:04] <knittl> BluesKaj: i'm using the nvidia-vdpau ppa right now
[18:04] <knittl> but i'll bookmark it anyway
[18:15] <marco>  what's beyond light-speed bothing of 10.04 ?
[18:21] <falktx> i saw a lot of changes in the udev rules
[18:21] <falktx> and initramfs
[18:22] <falktx> no device is scanning unless is really necessary
[18:22] <falktx> that might get the system to boot a little faster
[18:37] <falktx> need help
[18:37] <falktx> (maybe an ubuntu bug?)
[18:38] <falktx> I submited a package to revu, but it can't be displayed
[18:38] <falktx> http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/lv2-c++-tools
[18:38] <falktx> because it has "++" in the name
[18:39] <seren__> you can try with the htmlentities for + instead
[18:40] <falktx> http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/lv2-c%2B%2B-tools
[18:40] <falktx> still doesn't work
[18:41] <seren__> (I don't know it offhand)
[18:41] <falktx> it's ok
[18:41] <falktx> but we'll be a problem if someone wants to look at it
[18:42] <falktx> (for reviewing)
[18:42] <falktx> should I open a new bug for this, or what?
[18:46] <seren__> I vote fill a bug
[18:47] <Pici> falktx: File a bug here: https://edge.launchpad.net/revu  and/or bug the people in #ubuntu-motu, since this really isn't an issue for #ubuntu+1
[18:53] <falktx> just added the bug report
[19:38] <bjsnider> knittl, did the updated 195 blob work for you?
[19:39] <knittl> bjsnider: after a lot of struggle, yes
[19:39] <bjsnider> struggle?
[19:39] <knittl> but i guess it was not the 195 at fault, my whole xorg must've been messed up
[19:39] <knittl> i also got segmentation faults right after grub
[19:39] <bjsnider> did it go into dkms and build without errors this time?
[19:40] <knittl> yup, no errors for me
[19:40] <bjsnider> i see
[19:41] <knittl> thanks a lot for updating the driver(s)
[19:42] <bjsnider> i'm just glad to have a guinea pig to test them out on
[19:43] <knittl> :D
[21:13] <mac_v> anyone know how i can transfer chrome's user data to a new install?
[21:48] <hrocha> good evening
[21:48] <joaopinto> hi
[21:49] <hrocha> just wanted to install lucid on my laptop
[21:49] <Seven_Six_Two> can I expect greatly differing results between running 10.04 native and in a vm?
[21:49] <hrocha> but it doesn't install
[21:50] <hrocha> i step through all the 8 steps of the pre-installation and then it does nothing
[21:50] <hrocha> i'm running the live version of lucid at the moment
[21:50] <hrocha> maybe because i'm running the installation process with the pt_PT locale?
[21:52] <Seven_Six_Two> hrocha, I don't know what you should do, but your issue makes me think I should try updating my 9.10 vm install first.
[21:53] <hrocha> Seven_Six_Two, yes, try on a vm first
[21:53] <hrocha> Seven_Six_Two, empathy in lucid doesn't even show IRC in the protocol list
[21:53] <hrocha> i had to install xchat
[21:54] <hrocha> i'll try to reboot and try installing in english
[21:54] <hrocha> brb
[21:54] <Seven_Six_Two> hrocha, that's what I use anyhow (xchat) and I figured a vm would be the safest route. I'm not experienced with using virtual machines though, so I wasn't sure if there are problems that I'll have with a vm that I wouldn't experiance natively
[21:54]  * swoody thinks Empathy is horrible for IRC anyways :)
[21:55] <hrocha> swoody, i agree
[21:55] <swoody> it's like trying to clear snow off your driveway... you *can* do it, but you're not going to enjoy it :/
[21:56] <swoody> with a broom*
[21:56] <swoody> wow... major PEBCAK
[21:57] <Seven_Six_Two> I don't know why empathy is even there by default. I much prefer pidgin for im and xchat for, well... irc
[21:58] <swoody> Seven_Six_Two: a big +1
[21:58] <swoody> and Empathy really didn't seem to be ready for the spotlight when it was included with Karmic
[21:58] <swoody> was pretty glitchy for a lot of users from what I hear
[22:03] <hrocha> it doesn't install :(
[22:03] <hrocha> back to 9.10
[22:06] <swoody> hrocha: what are you having trouble installing?
[22:07] <hrocha> i downloaded lucid and used the usb-creator to be able to boot from my usb drive because my dvd drive died
[22:07] <hrocha> i'm just trying to install lucid on my laptop
[22:07] <hrocha> but the installation process doesn't work
[22:07] <swoody> hrocha: and you can boot into the liveCD fine?
[22:08] <hrocha> yes
[22:08] <hrocha> it should't boot the livecd but it does
[22:08] <swoody> hrocha: any kind of error messages?
[22:08] <hrocha> i didn't choose "try ubuntu", i chose "install ubuntu"
[22:08] <guntbert> hrocha: its alpha - why don't you try in a VM first?
[22:08] <swoody> hrocha: what happens when you select 'try Ubuntu'?
[22:08] <hrocha> it starts the installation process and after the 8 steps it fails and starts the live session
[22:08] <sebsebseb> hi
[22:09] <hrocha> if i install lucid inside the live session it doesn't work either
[22:09] <swoody> hrocha: no error messages when it fails?
[22:09] <swoody> it just quits?
[22:09] <hrocha> none that i can see
[22:09] <hrocha> yes, it just quits
[22:10] <swoody> hrocha: have you tried checking the LiveCD integreity?
[22:10] <hrocha> i tried a vm but virtualbox says that lucid is for x86-64 and the processor is a i686 (i assume this is a bug from vbox)
[22:10] <hrocha> swoody, no, i didn't, i assumed the copy to the usb drive was done correctly
[22:10] <swoody> hrocha: that would be my first thing to do, just to make sure
[22:10] <hrocha> swoody, i'll try to check that, let me reboot
[22:11] <swoody> hrocha: did you also check the md5sum after downloading the .iso?
[22:11] <hrocha> swoody, also not, i'll do that now before rebooting
[22:11] <swoody> hrocha: :)
[22:13] <hrocha> iso is fine =)
[22:13] <hrocha> brb
[22:13] <swoody> good, good
[22:17] <hrocha> swoody, everything is fine
[22:19] <hrocha> i can't boot the iso on virtualbox so i guess i'll wait for the alpha2
[22:22] <ripps> is xorg.conf.d working yet? and will I be able to port my custom wacom fdi to it?
[22:22] <swoody> hrocha: hmmm... it may just be a glicthy Alpha :/
[22:22] <joaopinto> hrocha, if it says lucid is for x86-64 that means you have downloaded the 64 bits iso
[22:22] <swoody> hrocha: but that stinks
[22:22] <swoody> hrocha: you could always install Karmic, and then do update-manager -d to get Lucid on your laptop
[22:22] <hrocha> joaopinto, yes, i'm using a 64 bits iso
[22:22] <hrocha> i'm also using 9.10 64bits
[22:23] <crimsun> all the alphas should be treated as "glitchy"
[22:23] <hrocha> crimsun, glitchy yes, but not even installing? :D
[22:24] <crimsun> hrocha: sure, brokenness is expected.
[22:24] <crimsun> I'm *not* saying that isn't a bug.
[22:24] <hrocha> joaopinto, vbox is saying this iso is for x86-64 and the processor is an i686
[22:25] <hrocha> i'll download a new vbox
[22:29] <DanaG> Also make sure your CPU has VT enabled.
[22:29] <hrocha> VT?
[22:31] <RAOF> The (intel) x86 virtualisation extensions.
[22:31] <DanaG> Or AMD-V if it's AMD.
[22:59] <hrocha> swoody, hey! my problem was already reported
[22:59] <hrocha> swoody https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/494608
[23:00] <mich> hello! can anyone help me with nvidia upgrade from karmic problme?
[23:00] <mich> after upgrade I removed all my xorg and installed nvidia-glx-185
[23:00] <hrocha> swoody i can't do manual partitioning
[23:01] <mich> now I can't boot to gdm... and I can't reinstall xorg
[23:01] <crimsun> mich: the new ABI of the X server is incompatible with Lucid's existing NVidia driver and GLX
[23:01] <mich> so what can I do?
[23:02] <crimsun> mich: you have a few options: use nv, use nouveau, use the xorg-edgers PPA for 190.42 debs
[23:02] <mich> ok, but i have a tiny problem... I am unable to remove nvidia-glx-185 package
[23:03] <mich> something with usr/lib/xorg/modules/extensions/libGLcore.so not found
[23:04] <crimsun> that should be diverted by nvidia-glx-185
[23:06] <mich> oik I was able to remove that package... how is called that nv driver?
[23:06] <mich> nvidia-nv?
[23:06] <yofel> mich: nv should be installed by default, xserver-xorg-video-nv
[23:08] <mich> ok thanks.. btw what is the diff between nv and noueve?
[23:09] <RAOF> nv is maintained by nvidia, and (deliberately) contains no features.
[23:09] <mich> btw, I am able to boot to gdm, (nice) but gives arrors and works only in low-resolution mode
[23:09] <mich> aha
[23:09] <RAOF> nouveau aims to be fully featured, but is a bit experimental.
[23:11] <hrocha> are you able to boot a 64bit ubuntu inside virtualbox?
[23:11] <mich> I am in system
[23:11] <mich> in low res mode,
[23:11] <hrocha> i tried to boot from a lucid x64 but it doesn't boot
[23:12] <hrocha> vbox says that it doesn't support x86-64
[23:12] <hrocha> am i missing something?
[23:13] <mich> nope I did not tried it.. probably vbox can't run 64bit
[23:15] <DanaG> I  think vbox can... it may just not be enabled by default.
[23:16] <hrocha> hmm, ok
[23:16] <DanaG> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=730912
[23:17] <bjsnider> i've got the 195 driver in my ppa which apparently works on lucid
[23:17] <hrocha> from launchpad i suppose the latest daily doesn't have the issue i'm having while trying to install luic
[23:17] <hrocha> *lucid
[23:18] <crimsun> bjsnider: you should submit it to the xorg-edgers PPA
[23:19] <CosmiChaos> bjsnider, yeah hope they will go further than 195.22 before christmas
[23:19] <crimsun> man, you guys are slave drivers
[23:19] <bjsnider> crimsun, the blob is not a xorg supported driver
[23:19] <crimsun> a week before the holiday and you're asking for more releases?
[23:19] <crimsun> bjsnider: there's an existing 190.42 in that PPA.
[23:19] <CosmiChaos> crimsun, i always do
[23:20] <bjsnider> crimsun, that's their bidnez
[23:20] <crimsun> bjsnider: the point is to provide a central location for it
[23:21] <crimsun> bjsnider: I haven't read anything saying that the proprietary driver is *unwelcome* in that PPA
[23:21] <CosmiChaos> bjsnider, hey its just nvidia released 195.62 whql for windows weeks ago, i guess they could spent more effort in supplying linux users with latest drivers
[23:21] <mich> is there any way to make my ubuntu run faster? (it's slow as hell.. even liveCD runs faster... :-( on same machine   (from karmic Alpha3 )
[23:22] <CosmiChaos> mich, never directly upgrade from alpha to alpha
[23:22] <mich> whaat? :-D
[23:22] <mich> I always did that :-)
[23:22] <mich> i've installed alpha 3 and only upgraded via apt
[23:22] <CosmiChaos> not a very good idea
[23:22] <mich> so that's the reason why is my karmic so fked up?
[23:23] <crimsun> huh? we're being kinda sloppy if you *can't* upgrade between alphas
[23:23] <CosmiChaos> you are running karmic?
[23:23] <mich> lucid :-)
[23:23] <mich> upgraded from karmic  :-D
[23:24] <CosmiChaos> i suggest you never to go on using upgraded releases for developing new versions
[23:24] <mich> but system is very slow last few months :-(
[23:25] <CosmiChaos> always fresh install latest release and then upgrade on release scheduler point steps
[23:25] <mich> wow! nvidia-195 saved the day! Lucid works fine with that x server/org :-)
[23:25] <mich> aha, I'll know then :-)
[23:25] <bjsnider> crimsun, my ppa contains vdpau=related stuff that woudl also have to go in there, including mplayer, libvdpau and xine. i think it would be better to keep that stuff separate
[23:25]  * DanaG is using Lucid with Karmic X server, because radeon open-source driver is bad for heat and my sanity (fan noise).
[23:25] <mich> so probably it will be wiser to use Karmic only
[23:25] <CosmiChaos> thats just to reduce trashing devolping process with bugs that are just upgrade issues
[23:26] <CosmiChaos> and of course to avoid bugs
[23:26] <mich> so I'll install fresh karmic probably ;-/
[23:26] <bjsnider> DanaG, there isn't power management on that driver even in the bleeding-edge version?
[23:26] <CosmiChaos> other way would be to never use beta and regularly run upgrade and upgrade distrubution when its released
[23:27] <mich> ok thank you guys, my system works again
[23:27] <mich> good night!
[23:27] <CosmiChaos> that way you can keep your instalaltion most securly
[23:27] <hrocha> good night, bye
[23:39] <DanaG> [  578.690766] type=1503 audit(1261179503.146:24):  operation="file_lock" pid=7889 parent=2653 profile="/usr/lib/firefox-3.6*/firefox{,*[^s][^h]}" requested_mask="k::" denied_mask="k::" fsuid=1000 ouid=1000 name="/media/shared/firefox/dana/.parentlock"
[23:39] <DanaG> hmm, anyone here know how to tweak apparmor?
[23:41] <CosmiChaos> libesd0 (=0.2.41-6ubuntu1 available) depends on esound-clients (=0.2.41-6ubuntu1 available) that depends on esound-common (=0.2.41-6ubuntu1) but 0.2.41-6 is installed, no new esound-common available...
[23:43] <nvme> how do i configure the startup stuff for udev ?
[23:55] <DanaG> hmm, does this new phonon have the new pulseaudio stuff?
[23:55] <crimsun> not enabled in the Kubuntu builds last I checked
[23:55] <crimsun> but yes, it would
[23:56] <crimsun> OTOH I have no idea if it has been ported to KDE SC's
[23:56] <DanaG> hmm, works fine as-is; do we at least know it'll be there in the final version?
[23:57] <crimsun> ask in Kubuntu-devel
[23:57] <crimsun> CosmiChaos: libesd-alsa0 is awaiting binary NEW
[23:58] <crimsun> CosmiChaos: you can just grab it from launchpadlibrarian if it ruffles your fluffles that much