[00:00] Why is "do nothing" not an option for action when the laptop lid button is pressed? It's currently set to "blank screen", but that apparently means "crash" in whatever language Ubuntu speaks. [00:00] oh okay this looks like it [00:00] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/XorgHalsectomy [00:00] dtchen, are you back on that again? [00:00] ugh [00:01] bjsnider: yes, I am. For a kernel guy, having a non-crashing system is really useful. [00:01] cos you know, work can actually get done. [00:01] they've spent a total of 12 minutes on that driver per year in the past decade [00:02] might as well use vesa [00:02] bjsnider: like I said before, I don't really care about the fact that it's essentially unmaintained. I care about the fact that it's a crackton more stable. [00:02] yes, I did use stable for the entirety of Karmic. [00:02] s/stable/vesa/ [00:02] it's just really ironic [00:03] they spend no time developing that piece of garbage, and yet it's much more stable for you than the one they constantly work on [00:03] or maybe your graphics card is old junk [00:03] shrug. It isn't as if this hardware is spectacular, either. It's an HP, of course it sucks. [00:03] i gues you don't work for the hewlett packard corporation [00:04] heh, some of the old junk runs better then the new crap there making now tho.think about that. [00:04] I don't think it would matter if I had/do. [00:04] the blob never crashes this system [00:04] well, that's great. PA works wonderfully on my systems, too. [00:05] i.e., just because it "works" under one's purvey doesn't really mean a lot [00:05] purvey? purview. anyhoo [00:05] !evdev [00:06] dtchen: Try nouveau, really. It's like nv, but where resume works. [00:06] anyone know how i can find out about 'evdev' rules ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/XorgHalsectomy [00:06] i tried to get him to do that [00:06] he said he couldn't be bothered [00:06] argh. [00:06] if he's using vesa on karmic... [00:07] i don't even know how to comment on that [00:07] ok, let me explain: this laptop has a broken bios. It corrupts low memory on resume. [00:07] Ah, missed that. [00:07] so, in light of that, do you really think I give a flying wazoo if a gfx driver has working suspend & resume? [00:07] No, not really. [00:08] now, certainly, I could submit a quirk for linux to "reserve" the contaminated bits [00:08] dtchen, if nouveau is the default in lucid, will you use it or go out of your way to use nv? [00:09] bjsnider: dude I'm no luddite [00:09] if it's there, I'm not going to rip it out like people do with PA [00:09] i see [00:10] again, I'm *not* particularly attached to "nv". I *am* attached to a working system. Being able to see the actual alsa/pulse source code is slightly useful. [00:10] what nvidia chip is in that thing? [00:11] 00:12.0 VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation C67 [GeForce 7150M / nForce 630M] (rev a2) [00:11] no vdpau support [00:12] mine is older its a riva tnt2:D [00:12] now that is old junk [00:12] works good. [00:12] can't do any decent bling [00:13] I remember when the TNT was the new hotness. Heck, I remember the furor when it usurped the 3dfx lines. [00:13] "translucent water in quake?!" [00:14] dtchen, i had a guy email me saying he had to rip out pa from karmic because he couldn't get surround sound to work... [00:14] now let me get this right, the kernel has to work with this release as well as with the release of the 8.04 lts? [00:15] oldude67: it should; there obviously isn't a guarantee [00:15] bjsnider: where "couldn't get surround sound to work" entails...? [00:15] i was just wondering if it was cause they could go from the 8.04 to the 10.4 [00:16] it sounded like he was grabbing mplayer from my ppa, playing a 5.1 ac3 or dts flick, and couldn't get the 5.1 side to work with his speakers... [00:16] and i understand there is no guarantees on updates. [00:16] so his brilliant google-inspired decision was to rip out pa [00:16] not to go to you for help [00:17] that's ok, people are Free to hang themselves. There's plenty of rope. [00:17] there must be a lot of advice out there on google saying "if pa doesn't do exactly what you think it should, get rid of it" [00:23] ugh i should of reboot the computer before i logged out of ssh...grrr. [00:37] bjsnider: yeah, that's a battle I no longer care to fight [00:38] you can't fight google [00:38] you can't win [00:38] no, you can't fight stupid. It burns. [00:39] he then had the gall to complain that no other sound output module would give him surround sound [00:39] how the hell did he think he was going to achieve that without pulse... [00:39] it's possible through alsa-lib's plugin layer directly [00:40] (which is in fact how PA does it) [00:40] well, he failed in that effort too [00:40] he was using another output module [00:40] can't remember the name now [00:41] openal [00:47] anyone know how i can have the mounting of stuff in /etc/fstab delayed (trying to improve my boot) [00:47] *boot time [00:57] bjsnider: FWIW, ymanton now has some free time, part of which he plans to spend getting g3dvl to expose a VDPAU interface, which would be nice. [01:01] g3dvl? [01:03] bjsnider: The gallium video-acceleration winsys - it currently does XvMC on the 3D engine, but there has also been work done to get gallium to drive the specialised video decoding hardware. [01:03] Where it exists, and use the 3D engine where it doesn't. [01:04] yeah, i've heard of that being on the agenda [01:05] it would be especially nice for intel users since most people have intel gpus [01:05] Sadly intel gpus are also horribly underpowered. [01:06] the 4500 has purevideo type hardware in it [01:06] doing jack squat in linux right now [01:06] Ah, well. [01:07] it would be a big laptop power-saver for people who watch flicks on their laptops [01:08] * RAOF would just like to offload some mpeg4 avc decoding to the TV box's 6600GT, so it can actually keep up with high-resolution video. [01:08] get a newer card [01:10] they're practically giving away the 8400s now [01:10] probably because they're bumpgate cards [01:11] it seems versions for default software in lucid has been decided already, at least for many applications. Where can I find a list? [01:12] or is it so that the major versions have already been uploaded and there won't be any major upgrades in this cycle? [01:12] of course there will [01:12] why? [01:12] it's a conservative release, but not that conservative [01:13] I mean why is it obvious? [01:13] look on the schedule for "debian import freeze" or whatever they call it [01:14] then look for whatever package worries you on packages.debian.org for the current upstream version [01:14] I've seen those, but that'll include evolution 2.29, for instance and it still won't get into lucid. [01:14] that's probably what will be pulled [01:15] RAOF, when would you epect gallium to being to be used? [01:15] begin to be used [01:16] As the default 3D provider? I don't really know. Probably a couple of mesa releases away. [01:16] intel is wading into that pool a toe at a time [01:17] Right. Because, until laribee comes out, that pool is much more interesting for nvidia & ati cards than for intel. [01:20] Not that it's completely uninteresting for intel, but the nvidia & ati cards are just so much more likely to want to rewrite their drivers, because nv5x and r600-r700 are really very different and intel isn't there yet. [01:22] i've read some time in the latter half of next year [01:23] That mesa will release with gallium-default? That wouldn't surprise me. [01:24] yes [01:25] And it'd probably release with at least _some_ nouveau 3d enabled :) [01:26] that would be nice [01:31] XiXaQ, you can file a luanchpad bug that's a packaging request and then make your argument for why you want whatever this app is included in lucid [01:32] ? [01:32] it's not that I want a spesific package included. I want to know which packages to expect when we're done. [01:33] well, i already told you [01:33] whatever is upstream in debian at that moment [01:33] for instance, if I know that Evolution 2.28 will be included, and noone else, then I know now, what to expect in april. [01:33] bjsnider, are you sure? [01:33] yep [01:34] so then, if Debian decides to package 2.30, then Ubuntu must obey even though it's been decided that Lucid should stick with 2.28? [01:34] no [01:34] you said you didn't know what had been decided [01:34] now you say you do know [01:34] I did not. [01:35] I know what's been decided regarding _evolution_. I don't know what's been decided for all the other default apps and packages, if anything. [01:35] that's what I want to know. [01:35] which evolutionis upstream right now? [01:36] right now? 2.28, i guess. Why? [01:36] you guess [01:36] yes? [01:36] why does it matter? [01:36] it's part of gnome isn't it? [01:36] yes, but Ubuntu will not stick with GNOME in this version. [01:37] that is, some will be 2.30 and some will be 2.28 aiui. [01:38] so, Evolution 2.30 will be released in march, but it will not be included in Lucid. [01:38] nd you want to know which will be the case with evolution [01:38] no. [01:38] are you _trying_ to be difficult? [01:38] i guess i'm not understanding what you're asking [01:39] you know alraedy which evolution will be there [01:39] I want to have a general overview of which packages are planned to be included in lucid. Evolution is the _one_ application I _do_ know. [01:39] oh, i see [01:39] i thought you'd said that you were only interested in evolution [01:40] no, I just used that as an example of why I'm asking, since it breaks the pattern from all the previous versions of Ubuntu to not ship the latest upstream packages. [01:40] they publish a "planned features" type document online for that info, but i don't know if it's up yet [01:40] they're very conservastive with lts releases [01:42] XiXaQ: I think what is important to remember is that Ubuntu use upstream but it is not bound by upstream, just because Debian is going to use for example evolution 2.30 does not mean Ubuntu will or even has to. [01:43] least that is how I understand the ubuntu release philosophy [01:43] it's likely whatever gets held back will be published in a ppa anyway at some point [01:43] yup [01:45] (nautilus:10628): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_set_back_pixmap: assertion `pixmap == NULL || gdk_drawable_get_depth (window) == gdk_drawable_get_depth (pixmap)' failed [01:46] IdleOne, I know. That's why I'm asking where I can find out which versions are decided for lucid. It's more useful to discuss the issues while they're relevant. [01:46] XiXaQ: Evolution is a bit of a special case, but it's by no means unique; we shipped gdm 2.20 for a couple of releases after the rewrite was release and only switched in Karmic. [01:46] if I always hear about the decisions a few weeks after they've been made, then I loose my opportunity to voice my opinion. [01:46] XiXaQ: not sure where the list of proposed versions is or if there even is one at this point [01:47] RAOF: might know better [01:47] the import freeze wouldn't be for months i would think [01:47] XiXaQ: So, the policy is basically the same: latest upstream version at feature-freeze time, barring exceptions - in this case, it looks like Evolution is going to go through stability-breaking changes, and the concern is that 2.30 won't be sufficiently stable. [01:48] IdleOne, ok, this is an issue, I think. It's very important for people to know what to expect. We see the concequences of the opposite with karmic. Everyone expected it to be the best release yet, and that's because very few were aware of the big underlying changes that had been made. [01:49] fedora publishes these great documents detailing exactly what they want to import and how far they've gotten. ubuntu needs to do that [01:49] bjsnider, I'm sorry if I came across a bit strongly there, btw. I'm trying to quit smoking and I'm a bit edgy these days. :> [01:49] well, i wasn't tryingt o be sarcastic, i just didn't quite know what you were trying to ask [01:49] bjsnider, I think so too. It makes it very much easier to avoid "over selling" Ubuntu. [01:49] I got that. [01:49] bjsnider: But we don't really have enough information to do that, and where we do have enough information (ie: we're also upstream) there's plenty of design docs on the wiki. [01:50] RAOF, you've seen the fedora docoument i'm talking about? [01:50] I'm not sure that the characterisation of Karmic is correct, either, but I'm not in a particularly good position to comment. [01:50] weird... nautilus is drawing my desktop as opaque window-background color. [01:50] bjsnider: I've seen a bunch of fedora documents; what are you particularly thinking of? [01:51] i'll see if i can find it [01:51] karmic is the most unstable distro I've ever used, I think. I can't remember any release of ubuntu that's been so unreliable. [01:51] But is that your peculiar hardware, or more general? [01:51] Karmic hasn't been unreliable here, for example. [01:52] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/12/FeatureList [01:52] it's fairly predictably unreliable though, so I can live with it for now. (And I've filed bugs on the issues) [01:53] what's unstable in karmic? [01:53] I have to remember to unplug my mobile phone before rebooting, for instance, otherwise I get a kernel panic when the login screen appears. Not a very big issue, though it's annoying when I forget it. [01:54] and network-manager must be restarted when I reconnect my hspa connection. It goes nuts on cpu cycles and nothing connects. But that was just a matter of adding a launcher to the panel, so I can live with that as well for now. [01:54] bjsnider: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid looks like basically the same thing. [01:54] I've read all the blueprints.. that's not really what I'm after. [01:54] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/491521 [01:54] Ubuntu bug 491521 in nautilus "Decorations and RGBA" [High,In progress] [01:55] What's different between the blueprints and the Fedora 12 feature list? [01:55] the names of the items are overly technical compared to the fedora document, and there's no up-front description [01:56] I don't know as I haven't looked at Fedoras feature list. But I want something far more comprehensible than the blueprints. [01:56] XIXi posted the fedora document earlier [01:56] XiXaQ: I don't believe that the information that you're after exists; indeed, I don't believe that the decisions you think are being taken in fact exist. [01:57] http://www.cimitan.com/blog/ -- interesting idea, the placement of the login box in the same place as where the progress bar was. [01:58] RAOF, it's been confirmed for me, that it's been decided that Evolution will stay at 2.28 in lucid (and also in RHEL 6) [01:58] XiXaQ: That's true, yes. [01:58] XiXaQ: But that's a significantly special case. [01:58] RAOF, I'd like to know that the discussion exists before the conclusion is reached. That shouldn't be so hard to do? [01:59] You'd probably want to be following the desktop-team for stuff like that. [01:59] I pay close attention to ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com. Any other good sources? [01:59] I thought that was the primary list for issues like that, but I haven't seen anything about these discussions there. [02:00] you could also post a packaging-request bug and make your argument there. you might talk them into your way of thinking [02:01] Possibly #ubuntu-desktop. I'm not sure where the particular discussion occurred; it's entirely possible that it was at UDS. [02:02] bjsnider, assuming that I know that any discussions exist. It'd be a lot of resources wasted if everyone should file a packaging bug on every package that exists just in order to confirm that it won't be denied. [02:03] oh, everyone won't [02:03] believe me, hardly anyone will [02:03] hardly any users seem to care [02:03] If you know the new upstream version will fix a bug you experience, that's useful information to have on a bug. [02:04] If you know the new upstream version will introduce a significant feature that you'd find useful, that's good information to have on a bug. [02:04] yes, but if the assumption is that the new version will be included, it doesn't seem wise to file a bug on it not being included just in case it isn't. [02:05] but even after the decision is made, it can be reversed [02:05] there's nothing written in stone [02:06] hmm, for a release named lucid, the development discussions seem very foggy. [02:06] it can even sometimes be reversed after the import freeze [02:06] XiXaQ: That depends on what's actually in the bug you file - if you add a comment to an existing bug that "this is fixed in $NEW_UPSTREAM_VERSION", that's useful. If you want a shiny new feature in the new upstream version, it's useful to file a bug saying "please add $FOO; available in $NEW_UPSTREAM_VERNION" [02:07] There are limited packagers, and limited time; knowing that a new upstream version fixes something we care about or includes a shiny new feature that people care about makes it easier to prioritise. [02:08] hmm. If I feel it's safe to assume that a certain package will be included in Ubuntu, you still want me to file a bug about it not being included, just in case? That seems like a waste of everyones time. [02:08] It's not necessarily safe to assume; this depends. [02:09] What package is it that you think it's safe to assume it'll be included in Ubuntu? Why do you assume it'll be available? [02:10] If you assume it'll be available because it's in Debian testing and we've been syncing from Debian, then yes, that's safe to assume that the next autosync run will pull it in. [02:11] autosync? [02:11] well, until a few hours ago, I was confident Evolution 2.29 would appear in lucid any day now. I was just wondering _when_ to expect it. That's when Matthew Barnes told me that seb128 had told him it had been decided not to include it in 10.04. [02:12] I don't think Ubuntu has ever held back a version of Evolution from the current upstream version of GNOME before. [02:12] that wouldn't work in the ppa build system. minor changes would have to be made to certain files in the debian diretory [02:12] Right. This is an example of the rare exceptions. We _have_ held back on other core GNOME compenents before. [02:12] RAOF, ok. Not often anyway. [02:12] Indeed. [02:13] but I really don't mind breaking the patterns from time to time. What I do mind, is not being aware of it. [02:13] * DanaG wonders when compiz and metacity will get MPX support. [02:14] That's fair. [02:17] should be easy to make a routine of sending a short mail about this to ubuntu-desktop ml for instance. [02:17] Well, except that it's not a routine instance. [02:18] no, that's the reason why it's so important to have a routine for it. [02:18] everyone expects an established pattern to be followed unless they receive contradictory information. [02:19] Right. But it's difficult to make a routine of something that's happened twice that I can think of. [02:19] It _would_ be good to have the reasoning somewhere obivous. [02:20] "When something unpredicted happens, make sure everyone knows about it". How difficult is that? Most developers should know about exception handling? [02:25] of course, this would also help give it-journalists something to write about, giving us more free pr, which is good. [02:35] I have caught up good discussion XiXaQ and the others [02:35] I think it would be a good idea if Ubuntu had something like the Feature List pages for Fedora [02:35] that's rather clear, about what is to come and progress of features, I have seen it for Fedora 11 [02:36] as for Karmic it has been a let down for many people, there are quite a lot of negative articles out there on the web, as well as peoples negative comments [02:37] I don't know much about Lucid yet, but from what I know, I think it will be a pretty good release, well I hope so anyway, since it's LTS [02:37] What's different between the current blueprints page and the fedora features page? Or, in other words, what would need to change to make the blueprints page as useful to you as the fedora page? [02:37] ,but ideally non LTS releases should also be pretty good :) [02:37] RAOF: well the blue prints are loads of pages [02:37] Fedora's stuff is one page [02:38] So are the fedora pages. [02:38] They're lots of different pages, with one master-list page. Similarly, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid [02:38] oh [02:40] So, is perhaps the answer "people don't know how to find Ubuntu's list page as easily"? :) [02:40] oh I have been on the blue prints before [02:41] hmm. I'm looking for something less detailed, as I said before. [02:45] RAOF: XiXaQ look nice and clear feature list, uhmm table even, showing their progress percentagewise as well, and a summar of the feature, then from it people can go on the pages with more details https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/13/FeatureList [02:47] where as the Ubuntu blue prints, the names are technical, and things are done on more than one page, as well as pages for details about the feature. oh and the IRC stuff isn't really a Lucid feature, but it is a blueprint [02:47] So, the difference between that and the blueprints list would basically be the one-line summary? [02:48] I have to only go on one page to get an idea of what is to come in Fedora 12, where as with Ubuntu I would have to go on many pages. [02:48] not necessarily. [02:48] Fedora 12 uhmm Ubuntu, another typeo I did earlier was Summary [02:49] I correct myself and mess up again hmm [02:49] Fedora 13 [02:50] RAOF: that's fne to have loads of technical details some where for developers and such, but the average Ubuntu user won't really understand about most of that, however they will understand if there's a page like Fedora 13's Feature List with the main features on one page. [02:51] Right. But the _reason_ you can do that is because there isn't a one-line feature-summary on the blueprints page and there is on the Fedora page. [02:51] also the blueprints well, that would take quite a bit of time, for me to go through it all [02:52] XiXaQ: and that's the kind of thing you want as well or? [02:53] RAOF: tables can also be added to as new features get accepted [02:54] As can blueprints. [02:54] right now no one really knows what the main Lucid features will actsualley be right? [02:54] RAOF: sure, but it's good to have a table like Fedora's feature list, with the main stuff [02:54] I think mails would do. "We've decided to stick with Evolution 2.28 in Lucid because of many underlying changed in 2.29/2.30 that would not be suitable for Evolution. See blueprint x" [02:54] that would suffice. [02:56] sebsebseb: The blueprints _are_ the main stuff. [02:56] RAOF: well it could get presented in a better way I expect, so don't have to go on so many pages [02:57] Which is what I'm suggesting; rather than duplicating existing work, we get launchpad to present the existing information in a better way. [02:57] XiXaQ's problem is orthogonal; that's something that just hasn't been announced anywhere visible. [02:58] XiXaQ: Evolution uh huh, well hopefuly Thunderbird 3 will be in the repo :) [02:58] sebsebseb, again, it was just an example. I think it's very strange that it isn't immediately visible to the entire community that a decision like that has been made. [03:01] XiXaQ: well it wasn't clear to the whole community that with 9.04, they would put in their edited fast user account switcher, resulting in shut down and log out being removed from the system menu, when that's enabled. They are also really meant to be in the system menu according to upstream Gnome. Also it wasn't clear that in Karmic that most of the default screensavers would be removed from the default install, screensavers that have been [03:02] there since I guess the first release. Plus your Evolution issue. I guess these are just seen as little things by many people, things that aren't really worth telling loads of people about. === dereks_ is now known as dereks [03:03] kaffeine was mistakenly bumped to pre-1 in karmic when it should have stayed with 0.8.8 as well [03:03] XiXaQ: at least fusa looks better in 9.10 :) nice icon [03:04] yes, lots of improvements. I'm not complaining about karmic in any way. I'm just saying that it would be easier for people to understand why there are some nasty issues in it if they knew about the massive changes well in advance. [03:04] XiXaQ: Ubuntu like being open about loads of stuff, but you still got to know where to get info from. [03:06] some people thought Karmic would compete properly against Windows 7 or something, in fact there was a good comment on the web I read to something and that person would stay on Windows 7 whilst waiting for Lucid. As someone who has used Ubuntu for long enough, I know that Karmic was never made to compete properly against Wndows 7. [03:06] 10.04 will have a better chance at that, it seems [03:07] Also as someone who has used it long enough, I know that newer is not always better, and I know that with Ubuntu it's not about what is the latest, it's about what is still supported, loads of users do not know this. That's something Canonical and the Ubuntu community should be a lot more clear about really, I think. [03:07] well, 10.04 still needs a lotta work [03:11] There was a good comment on the web that basically said it's unacceptable for 9.04 to still not provide the proper Firefox 3.5 from the repo, yes the proper one not Shiretoko. I guess a user that doesn't reolize that, normalley or always/only it's security updates from the repo. That's something else that should be made more clear to users I guess. Also whilst I am at it, it would probably be a good idea for it to be made clear to users, [03:11] that it's a good idea to md5sum/sha1sum or both even, the ISO, before burning the contents to CD. [03:11] Well nothing is perfect I guess! [03:14] BluesKaj: well yeah, but I have a feeling it will be a pretty good release :) [03:14] god is perfect, if there is one [03:14] bjsnider: yeah I guess so [03:17] bjsnider: Totally off topic (continue in #ubuntu-offtopic, if you want), but there are plenty of "god" definitions which don't include perfection :) [03:18] XiXaQ: well there are the release notes, but loads of users won't read those, unless someone tells them to [03:18] !notes | XiXaQ [03:18] XiXaQ: Ubuntu 9.10 (Karmic Koala) release notes can be found here: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/910 [03:19] XiXaQ: also that's when it's released, not before release, but the alpha's and such get a release notes type page as well [03:24] to go with the subject of things being perfect or not, i'll do this. I read a comment on the web, about someone going back to Windows 7, because they didn't like Karmic, if I remember correctly. [03:26] also, because I wanted to [03:29] you know i havent tried vista on my own computer, but i did look at it in the stores and on my brother computer..and hated it.i havent even seen windows 7 yet. [03:29] i just got so upset with windows, that it would have to take an awful lot to get me to ever go back to it. [03:29] lucid FTW! [03:30] rr72_, well even as buggy as karmic was and is for some, its still not as bad as windows, cause i didnt have to buy a new computer just to run it. [03:30] i_is_broke: I tried the RC for Vista Version 2 (Windows 7) not used a final yet, I am thinking virtual machine a trial [03:31] sebsebseb, thats what i thought to,might do that after christmas,but the grandkids come first. [03:32] * rr72_ hides from KB1JWQ_ [03:32] heck i even took my name out of there free beta trials i was so upset. [03:33] they were going to send me windows 7 to use as a tester and told them thanks but no thanks..should of took it then quit. [03:33] lol [03:33] i_is_broke: well Windows 7 is meant to use less resources so be able to run on certain types of computers that VIsta woudn't run on or whatever. oh yeah by the way their off topic rule goes for here as well [03:34] lol yeah [03:34] sorry [03:34] so pm if you want, but I am also in #ubuntu-offtopic I don't go there much, since don't like it much [03:34] sorry peeps... [03:35] sebsebseb~ PM ok from anyone to you? :_P [03:35] *:-P [03:35] well it can be annoying when doing support in #ubuntu and they start pm'ing when really they should of just stayed in the channel [03:36] for example [03:36] should have just stayed... [03:36] ,but useualley I don't mind pm [03:36] bjsnider: I mean pm'ing about something, when for example really it would have been better to ask the channel [03:37] anyhow, did i see someone saying they was going back to the xorg setup? [03:37] is that just for now or is it going to stay??? [03:37] bjsnider: they tend to also stay in the channel, when they try and get their pm support [03:38] !pm [03:38] Please ask your questions in the channel so that other people can help you, benefit from your questions and answers, and ensure that you're not getting bad advice. Please note that some people find it rude to be sent a PM without being asked for permission to do so first. [03:39] ok, have a question about ramzswap, if i use it on my computer will it just make the memory my swap and if i dont have a lot,cause it to start using swap memory on the hard drive? [03:39] im using it on my lucid box right now. [03:41] rr72_: your answer is above, if you missed it [03:42] well it's still there, even if you didn't miss it, :D [03:42]

off topic :-P === KB1JWQ_ is now known as KB1JWQ [03:43] rr72_: hmm/hrm ? [03:44] ok if i run 9.10 server on my home server, when 10.4 comes out, will i still be able to update to it as an lts? [03:52] anyideas? http://pastebin.com/d1200a27a [03:55] i_is_broke: Yes. 10.04 will be an LTS release; that's not going to change depending on how you got to 10.04. [03:57] sebsebseb, you have to know where to get the info from, yes. And I've been asking that question for a long time, and noone seems to be able to give an answer. That suggests to me, that the information might not exist in the form I'd like. [03:58] sebsebseb, the release notes are _way_ too late. We should have a community filled with people knowledgable about the release way before it is released. [03:59] i_is_broke, I haven't tried Windows 7 either, but that's not because I'm upset with Microsoft. Actually, I just don't care about them anymore. They don't have anything I want. Alot of companies don't have what I want. I can't be upset with them all. [04:00] XiXaQ: nice idea, but it's mainly people that are quite new to Ubuntu using it these days, I guess [04:00] XiXaQ, well its all personal reasons im upset with them.. [04:00] also a lot of these people haven't tried another Linux distro yet [04:00] RAOF, i'd like to see matroksa support and vdpau in gstreamer. any thoughts on that? [04:01] sebsebseb, I've been using Ubuntu since 5.04 and still I don't know where to get this information in time. That should say something. [04:01] bjsnider: Matroska support is there; vdpau is being talked about. [04:01] Desktop Linux is so much more than just Ubuntu, but it seems that the average Ubuntu user, does not know this. [04:01] XiXaQ: second release in 2005 for me, Fedora Core 2 and 4 before it [04:01] RAOF, matroksa support with all features including alternate audio/chapters etc.? [04:01] oh, how I wish the term "Desktop Linux" would die a quiet death. It's a meaningless expression which only serves to confuse. [04:02] XiXaQ: to some extent maybe so. because of laptops/notebooks and netbooks as well [04:02] lets see i started with slack, went to suse , then to redhate, then to debian, then to ubuntu, then back to slack then to ubuntu..and have been here ever since. [04:02] bjsnider: The former? I believe so. The second? Dunno. I don't know if that requires GStreamer support, or whether it's Totem not supporting it. [04:02] sebsebseb, let me elaborate. Would you agree that Debian is one of the biggest Linux distros? [04:02] also I guess a more proper term instead of Desktop Linux that is very similar to it is, Desktop GNU/Linux [04:03] XiXaQ: of course it is [04:03] XiXaQ: ,but how many of them use Ubuntu a lot of the time? [04:03] yeah, of course redhat isnt free:( [04:03] either way it's folded into gnome [04:03] sebsebseb, then Debian GNU/FreeBSD is a Linux distro with a FreeBSD kernel? [04:03] Debian can also use Hurd [04:03] instead of Linux [04:03] right. [04:03] there is no totem-xine anymore. totem is gstreamer 100% now [04:04] XiXaQ: Desktop and Server, but now we got other devices as well, mobile etc [04:04] well I guess it's, Desktop, mobile, and cloud? [04:04] mobile in this context being notebooks and netbooks and mobile phones [04:05] sebsebseb, then what we're communicating is that Debian is a Linux distro except when it's not. That's ... bad communication. For Debian, using GNU/Linux in the name is good. For Ubuntu, which aims to be a user friendly alternative to the proprietary stuff, "Linux" should be hidden, imho. [04:05] Except "Linux" is a relatively well known trademark. GNU isn't. [04:05] XiXaQ: By default Debian uses Linux [04:06] bjsnider: Is there a bug report that you know for Totem not respecting matroska chapters? If not, that'd be a good start :) [04:06] sebsebseb, ergo what I said: It's a Linux distro except when it's not. Through that at your grandparents and see how they react. [04:06] not that i know of. but there are lots of gnome bugs that go back years without having been dealt with [04:06] my point when using Desktop Linux [04:06] throw! [04:06] is to say that [04:06] there is more than one distro [04:07] ,but sometimes or a lot of the time when I use it, that isn't really clear [04:07] and also that it's the desttop, for the consumer/homeuser, not some commercial business server [04:07] for example [04:07] sebsebseb, then you also have to explain the concept of distros, meaning that you also have to explain the different kernels, forcing you to explain what a kernel is. At this point, you seem like such an advanced user, if you tell them it's user friendly, they won't believe you. [04:08] when I tell people online for example, about Ubuntu and sometimes other distros even, I usually give them a basic idea of what Linux is as well. [04:09] ok? Can you give me a short an simple explanation so I can use it when I encounter the question? [04:09] XiXaQ: By the way this is all off topic, for this channel. [04:09] indeed. :) [04:09] except for the fact that we're talking about Lucid communication :> [04:09] All operating systems have a kernel, a kernel is a program in the background, that deals with all hardware and software. [04:10] My definition might not be 100% correct, but it's good enough for a basic idea. [04:10] the kernel is the heart/core of the OS [04:10] so Linux is like Windows? It's where you install the applications? [04:10] no the kernel is the heart/core of the operating system [04:10] well sort of they are both operating systems. [04:11] the operating systems are, Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux distributions such as Ubuntu, and Mandriva, etc [04:11] but so is osx unix [04:11] instead of us Linux people calling it an operating system, we call it a distribution or distro for short [04:11] sebsebseb, but you just said Linux _wasn't_ like Windows? I'm confused. [04:12] there is a linux kernel, and a windows (ntoskernl) kernel [04:12] A Linux distro such as Ubuntu or Mandriva, can be used for the basic Windows tasks such as using the Internet, and more [04:12] bjsnider: sure, but he wants a basic thing to say to people that don't know about this kind of stuff [04:12] everything is built on top of the kernel [04:12] oh, I get it! Linux is the _core_ of the Operating system, so Ubuntu and Windows both use Linux, but Linux uses different applications, like Firefox instead of Internet Explorer? [04:12] XiXaQ: normalley they don't go that far? [04:13] sebsebseb, you're right. normally, they say: "you know what, this seems complicated, and Windows works for me". [04:13] windows does not use the linux kernel [04:13] microsoft is far too stupid to do that [04:13] if they start with that, you could say that xorg is the in the background, program responsible for running the graphical programs in Ubuntu/Mandriva/whatever [04:13] bjsnider, I was trying to show why I think Ubuntu should stop nagging about Linux. [04:13] they'd prefer to pay a kernel team to develop an inferior product than use a free one [04:14]