[09:47] <humphreybc> hey jono, how's it going?
[09:47] <jono> hey humphreybc :)
[09:48] <jono> all good thanks, you?
[09:48] <humphreybc> not bad not bad, busy day trying to get a new LAMP server up and running with ubuntu server and AjaXplorer
[09:48] <humphreybc> i'm having some problems with PHP file uploading, but that's for another day :P
[09:49] <humphreybc> what's the weather like in the UK? snowing?
[10:00] <hfz> anybody???
[10:00] <humphreybc> they're getting there :)
[10:03]  * persia peers about
[10:03] <humphreybc> who's supposed to be chairing the meeting?
[10:04] <persia> humphreybc: amachu is our traditional chair
[10:04] <humphreybc> Oo he's running a tad late :P
[10:05] <persia> Seems that way.
[10:05] <humphreybc> are you in the board?
[10:05] <persia> I am.
[10:05] <humphreybc> on* the board
[10:05] <humphreybc> cool cool
[10:06] <humphreybc> persia: do you know why the meeting was changed from the 14th?
[10:06] <elky> oh, it's that day of the month.
[10:06] <persia> Changed from the 14th?  No.
[10:07] <persia> humphreybc: You may be thinking of another meeting.  This one is at 10:00 UTC the second and fourth tuesdays of each month.
[10:07] <humphreybc> The Oceania membership board, right?
[10:07] <persia> humphreybc: Yep.
[10:08] <humphreybc> I'm fairly certain it was scheduled for the 14th but then changed, but doesn't matter
[10:08] <persia> Sorry if that happened: the 14th was definitely a mistake.
[10:08] <humphreybc> gotcha
[10:08] <humphreybc> I'm Benjamin by the way
[10:09] <persia> Yep.  You're our first candidate up today.
[10:09] <humphreybc> (I prefer people to use my real name, it's more personal :) )
[10:09] <persia> You might want to consider changing your nick :)
[10:09] <elky> persia, did you ping lifeless?
[10:10] <persia> elky: No, I was giving amachu 10 minutes.
[10:10] <humphreybc> hmm maybe at some point I will consider it. humphreybc is just my last name + initials, I use it for most stuff.
[10:10] <persia> lifeless: freeflying TheMuso Belutz zakame : who's here?
[10:11] <lifeless> vageuly
[10:11] <elky> the other four are not even in the channel
[10:11] <hfz> Hi!
[10:11] <persia> That would make three.  We need one more.
[10:11] <hfz> I'm Muhammad Hafiz from Malaysia
[10:12] <hfz> sorry for the late appearance
[10:12] <humphreybc> freeflying is here
[10:12] <hfz> since i'm waiting someone to come
[10:12] <humphreybc> (in the channel)
[10:12]  * hfz says ho to humphreybc
[10:12] <elky> oh so he is, i must have typoed bfore when i checked
[10:12] <hfz>  =D
[10:12] <humphreybc> hey mate, how's it going
[10:12] <hfz> i'm fine
[10:12] <hfz> thank you =D
[10:12] <hfz> how's yr day?
[10:12] <humphreybc> elky: whether he is afk or not, is yet to be determined :P
[10:13] <humphreybc> hfz: not bad, spent most of it setting up a LAMP server with ajaxplorer, and sorting stuff out for christmas
[10:13] <elky> he's been idle 50 minute
[10:13] <hfz> ok
[10:13]  * hfz says hi to elky =D
[10:13] <humphreybc> elky: hmm, well i suppose that means he's not around...
[10:13] <lifeless> amachu did send mail
[10:13] <elky> or he's got distracted
[10:14] <hfz> may i know who's the meeting chairman for today?
[10:14] <elky> hfz, hi :)
[10:14] <lifeless> I wager he's having internet fail
[10:14] <hfz> just want to get know =D
[10:14] <humphreybc> so you need four?
[10:14] <persia> hfz: Not determined yet.
[10:14] <lifeless> popey: around?
[10:14] <persia> humphreybc: Yes, but we're only three now.
[10:14] <popey> o/
[10:14]  * hfz says hello to persia =D
[10:14] <persia> popey: Have time to help us?
[10:14] <lifeless> popey: care to join asia for an evening ?
[10:14] <popey> sure
[10:14] <hfz> persia : ok, i'm understand =D
[10:15] <persia> OK.  Let's call ourselves quorate then.  Sitting board members for this meeting are elky, lifeless, popey, and persia
[10:15] <popey> anyone got the url handy?
[10:15] <persia> #startmeeting
[10:15] <MootBot> persia, There is already a meeting in progress.
[10:15] <lifeless> persia: please SMS me at like 2 past if I'm not here :) no need to make folk wait.
[10:15] <persia> Bah.
[10:15] <lifeless> persia: I do have it in my calendarish
[10:15] <lifeless> #endmeeting
[10:15] <persia> lifeless: You weren't the only one :)
[10:15] <persia> Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
[10:15] <lifeless> persia: I know, I'm not taking responsibility :)
[10:15] <humphreybc> be back in two secs, just nipping to the loo
[10:15] <lifeless> persia: just saying:)
[10:15] <hfz> I'm here already
[10:16]  * popey prefers the term "bio break" :)
[10:16] <persia> OK.  Let's skip humphreybc for now, and get back later :)
[10:16] <hfz> be back in five minutes, going to the loo for a while =D
[10:16] <persia> hfz: You're up.  Please introduce yourself.
[10:17] <humphreybc> right i'm back
[10:17] <persia> Right.  I thought that was a joke.  Moving on.
[10:17] <humphreybc> sorry about that
[10:17] <persia> nick: You're up.
[10:17] <persia> Please introduce yourself.
[10:18] <humphreybc> O.o
[10:18] <persia> OK.  Back to the top.
[10:18] <humphreybc> haha righto, i'll introduce myself.
[10:18] <persia> humphreybc: Your turn again.  Please introduce yourself.
[10:19] <humphreybc> Hi everyone, my name is Benjamin Humphrey. I'm a 19 year old Software Engineering student from New Zealand, currently studying in Dunedin. I've been using Ubuntu for about a year, and mainly contribute to documentation and the community.
[10:19] <humphreybc> In the future i'd like to shift to programming and code writing, as my skills develop in that area from my degree.
[10:20] <humphreybc> But for now, I'm mainly focusing on my blog, and an Ubuntu manual that i'm writing (preview is attached on my wiki page)
[10:20] <humphreybc> which is http:wiki.ubuntu.com/humphreybc
[10:21] <humphreybc> I also do a lot of testing of alpha and beta releases, submit and comment on bugs, and I have submitted the odd fix too.
[10:22] <hfz> hi
[10:22] <humphreybc> I'm a member of the Ubuntu NZ LoCo team, and of the New Zealand Open Source Society (my linux feed is aggregated there)
[10:22] <hfz> I'm back!
[10:22] <hfz> sorry for the delays =D
[10:22] <lifeless> hfz: we'll be with you soon; for now please let us interview humphreybc
[10:22] <hfz> ok
[10:22] <humphreybc> And next year I'm planning on running some activities in the Dunedin area to promote Ubuntu.
[10:22] <hfz> sure
[10:23] <humphreybc> So yeah, that's pretty much me. I'm interested in Ubuntu for a number of reasons, and interested in contributing because I want to give back to the community what it has so generously given me for free. Seeing as Software development and IT is my major at university, it also makes sense for me to get involved.
[10:23] <humphreybc> What else would you like to know?
[10:23] <persia> humphreybc: Well, we're currently reviewing, but did you happen to bring anyone with you today to cheer for your application?
[10:24] <humphreybc> Unfortunately, no. The couple of people who would want to come are in the wrong timezone
[10:24] <humphreybc> I work with Joey from omgubuntu.co.uk on a few things, I've been meaning to get a testimonial from him - but he's a pretty busy guy
[10:25] <lifeless> humphreybc: you seem to be very active, but only for a short time ?
[10:25] <popey> I'm seeing lots of recent blogging, but little evidence of direct contribution to Ubuntu itself.
[10:25] <humphreybc> Yes, I have only been using Ubuntu for a year or so. The blog is pretty new, only started that recently.
[10:25] <lifeless> humphreybc: we look for 'significant and sustained' contribution.
[10:26] <popey> Personally I prefer to see contributions to the documentation team, wiki and so on rather than external blogs and documents.
[10:26] <lifeless> popey: me too
[10:26] <elky> indeed
[10:26] <lifeless> humphreybc: for instance, have you considered making your ebook part of the official docs ?
[10:26] <popey> I do like the idea of a beginner "manual" but it could be done in collaboration with the docteam
[10:26] <humphreybc> Mmm I understand that. I've written some guides for the Video documentation wiki, but to be honest, not a huge heap of stuff "officially"
[10:26] <elky> popey, or even beginners team
[10:26] <persia> The work with the testing and QA teams is also promising, but I'd like to see either documentation of the extent, or failing that, some commentary from others working in that area.
[10:26] <popey> that too elky
[10:26] <humphreybc> When I have finished the book it will become official, that's my goal
[10:27] <lifeless> humphreybc: it doesn't need to be 'official' as such, just part-of-the-community-resources.
[10:27] <popey> humphreybc: if you maintained it in bzr/wiki you might find others would contribute
[10:27] <popey> s/would/could
[10:27] <humphreybc> Right. I am collaborating with a couple of other members, but it's reasonably fresh as well. It was only due to the success of the blog that I decided to write a manual
[10:28] <humphreybc> popey: I'll do that in a couple of months once I have written the full draft.
[10:28] <lifeless> though I think we should recognise activities that are 'adjacent' to Ubuntu.
[10:28] <popey> sure lifeless, i "recognise" but also "prefer" :)
[10:28] <persia> I'm certainly happy to recognise adjacent activities, so long as there is also integration with direct activities.
[10:28] <humphreybc> I've addressed the fact that the direct contributions to Ubuntu aren't significant comparative to many
[10:29] <humphreybc> But that will change next year when I take some more coding papers
[10:29] <lifeless> anyhow, my vote is against, for now: This is a good beginning, but needs to be significantly more sustained. I think if you keep the same level of activity up the forums posts / ideastorm/wiki will be plenty in due course.
[10:29] <humphreybc> lifeless: fair enough
[10:30] <persia> I'm also against.  I think the work is great, but I'd like to see more direct contribution, and more support from other members of the community.
[10:30] <humphreybc> What would you consider a significant amount of time, and examples of direct contribution? I've never had the definition of direct contribution explained to me, as opposed to external contribution.
[10:30] <lifeless> humphreybc: there are other Ubuntu Members in Dunedin; you may find you're not as alone there as your writings seem to imply ;)
[10:30] <lifeless> ajmitch: ^ :P
[10:30] <humphreybc> I'll have to track them down, thanks.
[10:31] <elky> +0 from me for similar reasons. you have a good start but you lack the sustained bit we're looking for.
[10:31] <persia> humphreybc: For myself, I consider it "direct contribution" when it's part of a team that exists within Ubuntu, and external contribution when it's personal blogs, other projects, etc.
[10:31] <humphreybc> It will be easier next year when I have an internet connection in my flat... this past year I was walking to the library each time I needed access :P
[10:32] <humphreybc> So when do you think I should try again? Presuming I keep up this level of activity.
[10:32] <lifeless> humphreybc: say a couple of semesters. There isn't a hard limit. We rarely ask someone who has been contributing in a sustained manner for a year to go away and come back, and less than a few months are rarely accepted
[10:32] <popey> I agree +0
[10:32] <humphreybc> Righto, so later next year. As I said, next year the "direct" contribution will increase significantly
[10:33] <elky> we look forward to seeing that :)
[10:33] <lifeless> My definition of direct contributions are things that improve Ubuntu itself.
[10:33] <humphreybc> And if I get some friends from Dunedin/Ubuntu NZ they should be able to vouch for me with a bit of luck :)
[10:33] <persia> humphreybc: Feel free to contact any of us personally if you want to check if you've reached that point (we can't say for sure, but we can review).  You may also want to ask other Ubuntu members in the various teams you work with.
[10:33] <lifeless> Ubuntu & the Ubuntu community.
[10:33] <persia> OK.  Anyone have anything else for humphreybc ?
[10:33] <humphreybc> How would I go about contacting one of the board?
[10:33] <humphreybc> Is there a list of members on the board somewhere?
[10:34] <lifeless> I don't think team vs solo is that important in terms of direct/indirect; but team things with official teams are pretty much guaranteed to be direct.
[10:34] <persia> On our launchpad page.
[10:34] <popey> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania
[10:34] <humphreybc> Gotcha
[10:34] <persia> OK.  Next up: hfz.  Please introduce yourself.
[10:34] <popey> keep up the good work humphreybc
[10:34] <hfz> Hi!
[10:34] <hfz> I'm Muhammad Hafiz, as introduced in Ubuntu WiKi
[10:35] <amachu> hi
[10:35] <elky> hey amachu
[10:35] <hfz> I'm 15 years old from Malaysia, and just began in the middle of this year to using Ubuntu
[10:35] <hfz> And I've contributed my time for the translation doc for the current release of Ubuntu 9.10
[10:35] <nick> hi folks, did i miss anything?
[10:36] <hfz> I'm also a member of Ubuntu Malaysia Local Community and Open Source Developers Club Malaysia
[10:36] <hfz> I've attached the links in my WiKi Page
[10:36] <amachu> sorry held up with official meeting..
[10:36] <lifeless> nick: we'll be with you soon; for now please let us interview hfz
[10:36] <persia> nick: You were up, but we passed on.  We'll get back to you in a while.
[10:36] <lifeless> amachu: its ok, we grabbed popey
[10:36] <amachu> lifeless: I understood..
[10:37] <hfz> Plus, I'm currently becoming the website moderator of YouthSays Malaysia, under company named YouthAsia
[10:37] <lifeless> amachu: we've just started with hfz, you've seen all the discussion, and I think you're welcome to join in :P
[10:37] <hfz> Anymore you want to know about me?
[10:37] <hfz> :)
[10:38] <lifeless> hfz: what do you consider your most significant contribution to Ubuntu?
[10:38] <amachu> lifeless: yep
[10:38] <hfz> The language translation from English to Bahasa Malaysia for Ubuntu release, 9.10 codenamed Karmic Koala
[10:38] <hfz> And also answering some bugs in Launchpad
[10:39] <hfz> I'm also currently learning Ruby on Rails
[10:40] <hfz> Any questions for me?
[10:40] <hfz> :)
[10:40] <persia> hfz: You don't have any testimonials on your wiki page.  Did you bring anyone to support your application?
[10:41] <hfz> Unfortunately no, since the others are busy....
[10:42] <popey> I'm seeing a small number of translations recently, but nothing that would make me think 'sustained' contribution I'm afraid.
[10:43] <amachu> hfz: are there people here from your LoCo here ?
[10:43] <lifeless> popey: the page truncates
[10:43] <lifeless> popey: the ones you see are after9.10 came out; it could be anything
[10:44] <lifeless> So, I'm +0 here as well: most of the things on your wiki page are not anything to do with Ubuntu, while they are fine things to do.
[10:44] <elky> yep +0. i'd like to see more strictly ubuntu contributions. the translations are a nice start
[10:45] <hfz> Unfortunately no
[10:45] <lifeless> my advice is to keep on translating
[10:45] <persia> I'm also +0 on this.  While translations alone are certainly sufficient for me, I'm having a hard time judging the volume, and would like to see some support from at least other translators (or other folk, for other activities).
[10:45] <lifeless> get into bugs
[10:45] <hfz> I hope they can come
[10:45] <popey> I agree +0
[10:46] <hfz> Oh... OK =)
[10:46] <persia> amachu: ?
[10:46] <popey> It's great to see new young people using and getting involved in Ubuntu. I'd like to see more contributions hfz
[10:46] <hfz> I understand that
[10:46] <amachu> persia: +0
[10:46] <hfz> I try my best to upgrade myself, since I'm also currently promoting Ubuntu at my school
[10:46] <amachu> would like to see more sustained efforts & testimonials
[10:47] <hfz> OK
[10:47] <popey> hfz: make sure you fully document everything you do for Ubuntu :)
[10:47] <persia> hfz: As described above, you may want to just spend more time doing the things you are doing, or do more things.  I'd also encourage you to make sure there are good links to demonstrate and document the stuff you've done.
[10:47] <hfz> Oh, Nice advise =D
[10:47] <persia> Anyone have anything else for hfz?
[10:47] <amachu> persia: no
[10:48] <persia> OK.  Moving on then.
[10:48] <persia> Next up: nick.  Please introduce yourself.
[10:49] <hfz> OK.
[10:49] <hfz> Thanks
[10:49] <hfz> Nice to meet you guys =D
[10:49] <nick> Hi everyone. First of all sorry about missing my turn. I fall asleep due to jet lag. My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BoranBasar and you can also find information about me on https://launchpad.net/~boranbasar
[10:50] <elky> nick, tell us about your contributions to ubuntu please
[10:50] <nick> But mainly my contribution is helping Turkish users on #ubuntu-tr and also Turkish forum web pages on http://forum.ubuntu-tr.org. Most of them don't know english very well and they also prefer to have 1-on-1 support rather than using forum web-pages.
[10:51] <persia> nick: You seem to be primarily active in support, which I find hard to judge.  Do you have any links that would demonstrate the volume of your work?
[10:52] <nick> Unfortunately no as mostly my support is in Turkish and only on the channel based. I've started using Launchpad and others since I moved down the Australia.
[10:52] <persia> nick: You also mention the turkish forum.  What's your handle there?
[10:52] <amachu> nick: would like to see more in wiki with  links & references
[10:53] <nick> I'm helping the users with their questions and also creating them tutorials, such as how to install an Apache server or creating an Django enviroment on ubuntu.
[10:54] <nick> And also explaining them why using Ubuntu is important, not just because of it's free.
[10:55] <nick> Lastly I distribute Ubuntu CD's on my own, for the users in Turkey which has limited internet access(quota) that can't download Ubuntu online by themselves
[10:56] <elky> that's the sort of thing that should be on your wiki page.
[10:58] <humphreybc> night night fellas, i'm out
[10:58] <nick> good night humphreybc
[10:59] <persia> nick: Have you brought anyone to the meeting to support your application?
[11:00] <nick> persia: No, I haven't since I don't know any english speakers, which is the main reason I've been helping them in Turkish. If they could, they would be here trying to support me.
[11:00] <amachu> nick: good to hear these.. would have been great if all of what you say is also reflected in wiki with appropriate references
[11:01] <elky> nick, i think we'd be able to see the enthusiasm in their comments if they were here cheering your name
[11:01] <lifeless> also, you can bring turkish speakers to support you
[11:01] <lifeless> if you or someone you know can translate
[11:02] <elky> seeing stuff like "< person> nick++!!! :D" speaks plenty to us :)
[11:02] <persia> I don't feel I have enough information to make a positive statement towards membership.  I'd like to see a more comprehensive wiki page, including more detail about activities, links to activity in the turkish forum, and some testimonials (in Turkish is acceptable, although English is preferred).
[11:02] <_paco_> hello mes amis de la chanson
[11:03] <popey> I too would like to see a more comprehensive wiki page with links to contributions.
[11:03] <freeflying> nick: you mention Turkish FOSS software on your wiki page, so whats that
[11:03] <nick> persia: _paco_ is one of the operators of #ubuntu-tr. He is here to support me
[11:03] <_paco_>  I'm one of the operators on #ubuntu-tr. He's been helping people since 2005 on #ubuntu-tr
[11:03] <amachu> nick: would wish you all the best, but I would give -1 this time around
[11:04] <lifeless> _paco_: how active there is nick ?
[11:04] <_paco_> a lot I would say
[11:04] <_paco_> most of our ops ain't on the chan.
[11:04] <_paco_> I don't know why. I think they are too busy with the forum
[11:05] <lifeless> so, I think I'm +1 all told
[11:05] <lifeless> though its very hard to assess
[11:06] <_paco_> he helps answering newcomers questions, encouareging  them to use Ubuntu and help them to solve bugs they experience
[11:06] <elky> _paco_, nick has been consistent in his support giving since 2005?
[11:07] <_paco_> yes
[11:08] <elky> what about forums. has he been active there too since 2005?
[11:08] <elky> we dont even know what his account name there is
[11:09] <persia> nick: Could you please tell us your account name on http://forum.ubuntu-tr.org/ ?
[11:10] <nick> persia: wiper
[11:10] <persia> Thanks.
[11:12] <nick> persia: http://forum.ubuntu-tr.org/index.php/topic,3777.0.html you could see the topic lists that I created
[11:13] <nick> These are not all my topics, but it's created for easy access for new users. They include topics such as 'What is Ubuntu?, How you can install an application on Ubuntu, How you can get support?" etc.
[11:14] <elky> 7107 posts?
[11:14] <persia> I'm feeling more confident, and sufficiently soto vote in favour of membership.  I do encourage you to add more links to your wiki page, as there appears to be a lot of good dialog with users in the forums (and references to your IRC support).
[11:15] <elky> yep +1 from me now too
[11:15] <persia> User #2 on the turkish forum as well :)
[11:15] <elky> wow
[11:15] <elky> nick, these are things you should write on your wiki page! :)
[11:16] <persia> Definitely !  This would have been a fast approval with the documentation.
[11:16] <elky> i'd like to see you read the log of this meeting and fix that page
[11:16] <lifeless> popey: amachu: care to revote?
[11:16] <nick> elky: you'll be sure that I will
[11:16] <persia> freeflying: You also joined the discussion.  Do you have a vote?
[11:16] <amachu> lifeless: yes, I am looking at forum
[11:17] <amachu> just a line at wiki made life tough for nick today
[11:17] <freeflying> persia: I'd like -1
[11:18]  * popey is still +0
[11:18] <persia> OK.
[11:18] <amachu> i would elevate my vote to +0
[11:18] <amachu> at this time
[11:18] <lifeless> freeflying: popey: amachu: any advice for nick
[11:18] <persia> nick: I'd recommend fixing up your wiki page, and coming back to us once it's ready.  Feel free to contact any of the board members for a review to make sure it's in shape.
[11:19] <popey> 11:03:12 < popey> I too would like to see a more comprehensive wiki page with links to contributions.
[11:19] <popey> :)
[11:19] <amachu> lifeless: yes,
[11:19] <lifeless> popey: if its simply documentation, I think we should look beyond that :P
[11:19] <amachu> nick: update the wiki giving the links etc.,
[11:20] <freeflying> nick: we can't know too much from your wiki page, hope you can get someone here to support you next time
[11:20] <lifeless> freeflying: nick has _paco_ here supporting him
[11:20] <amachu> i do not see any reason not to give a +1 other than that..
[11:20] <nick> freeflying: I did. I asked one of the operators of #ubuntu-tr to come here to supportme
[11:20] <popey> lifeless: hmm
[11:20] <lifeless> so, its meta, but I really don't think a lack of docs should be a reason not to approve someone, *if* we've figured out the contributions anyway.
[11:21] <amachu> persia: what did you vote?
[11:21] <persia> m
[11:21] <amachu> just lost that
[11:21] <persia> amachu: In favour.
[11:21] <amachu> Oh ok..
[11:21] <popey> I'm happy to withdraw my vote given you're quorate without me
[11:21] <lifeless> popey: at +0 you are neutral anyhow :)
[11:21] <popey> well, indeed
[11:21] <persia> popey: No worries.  Although we've reached quorum, your vote isn't blocking.
[11:22] <amachu> we are six here today, with popey
[11:22] <lifeless> freeflying: you're at -1, can you please give some suggestions to nick, for things to improve on?
[11:22] <amachu> one negative voting & three +1 can be considered favourable
[11:22] <lifeless> freeflying: he has someone here supporting him
[11:23] <freeflying> but _paco_ can only support his activity in irc, I have too many this kind users around
[11:23] <persia> amachu: We've historically required a sufficiency of positive votes, with neutral votes counting essentially against, and only indicating the relative strength of feeling.
[11:23] <lifeless> freeflying: what do you mean?
[11:24] <amachu> persia: true
[11:24] <elky> historically we also dont argue to change each other's minds
[11:24] <amachu> I would like to see the wiki updated positively before giving +1
[11:25] <lifeless> amachu: what would the wiki update /do/ though?
[11:25] <persia> OK.  Let'S call this done.
[11:25] <freeflying> lifeless: well, I mean nick need doc more on his wiki, but not only his activity in irc
[11:25] <lifeless> elky: actually we've argued since the first meeting
[11:25] <lifeless> elky: I'm happy to dig up logs ;P
[11:25]  * persia supports lifeless's memory, but doesn't consider that a positive thing
[11:25] <amachu> lifeless: we send the membership mail to Ubuntu News Team & so also our list giving reference to the candiadate's wiki..
[11:26] <lifeless> amachu: good point
[11:26] <lifeless> persia: I think discussion to seek consensus (which is what I mean) is healthy.
[11:26] <amachu> a less informative wiki, won't appear good in minds of people going through it..
[11:27] <persia> lifeless: Put that way, I can't argue :)
[11:27] <elky> lifeless, offered counter points sure. not argued continually on it
[11:27] <persia> OK.  Anyway, I'm calling this done.
[11:27] <persia> nick: Thanks a lot for (finally) applying, and at least I'll hope to see you back soon.
[11:27] <persia> Anyone have anything else to bring before the board?
[11:28] <elky> nominations i sent to the list
[11:28] <amachu> persia: not here, but I remind myself to reply on nominations to list
[11:28] <nick> thanks a lot for the recommendations and your help
[11:28] <amachu> nick: hoping to see you soon..
[11:29] <_paco_> w0rd
[11:29] <freeflying> nick: hope to see you back soon
[11:29] <persia> OK.  Let's say that everyone who didn't already reply to elky's nominations should do so.
[11:29] <amachu> persia: yes
[11:29] <persia> Anything else?
[11:29] <amachu> amachu: not from me
[11:30] <amachu> elky: freeflying: lifeless: anything else?
[11:30] <amachu> popey: ?
[11:30] <freeflying> amachu: no
[11:30] <popey> Well..
[11:31] <popey> Did nick highlight Wiki pages he was responsible for?
[11:31] <lifeless> amachu: I don't have any new business, no. I think we're getting a bit too procedural/nitpicky. Which is a shame.
[11:31] <popey> I was rummaging round the forums and found plenty of forum posts
[11:32] <amachu> lifeless: didn't get you?
[11:33] <elky> he's still disagreeing with your penchant for a full wiki i suspect
[11:33] <persia> Or for asking each member to formally state they have nothing to raise, which I also find unnecessary.
[11:33] <lifeless> both in fact
[11:34] <lifeless> anyhow, its late; persia has called it, meeting is over;)
[11:34] <elky> yep
[11:34] <persia> Right.  In the interests of not having the member with the opinion against hardened procedure raise a meta-discussion point about procedure, let's skip that.
[11:35] <lifeless> persia: :)
[11:35] <amachu> elky: oh ok.
[11:35] <persia> nick: As popey noted, please consider adding links to all your wiki work to your personal wiki page as well, as this would add support.
[11:35] <persia> OK.  Meeting Adjourned.
[11:35] <amachu> thank you all.
[11:35] <nick> thanks
[11:35]  * persia gives the gavel to amachu for safekeeping until 12th Jaunary
[13:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[13:00] <MootBot> NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.
[13:01] <persia> Eventually whoever started that meeting will end it :/
[13:01] <persia> #endmeeting
[13:01] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[13:01] <MootBot> NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.
[13:01]  * NCommander grumbles
[13:01] <persia> In case it was you, try ending :)
[13:01] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[13:01] <NCommander> Nope
[13:02] <NCommander> persia, maybe we should move to #ubuntu-mobile?
[13:02] <persia> No MootBot there.  Just go here.
[13:02] <GrueMaster> persia, it was your last meeting.
[13:02] <elky> persia, i think that's ours from earlier
[13:02] <persia> GrueMaster: It wasn't.  It's been at least four or five days.
[13:02] <NCommander> persia, MootBot is there
[13:02] <NCommander> Has been for a long time
[13:03]  * NCommander has done meetings in that channel before
[13:04] <popey> elky: we didnt use i earlier
[13:04] <elky> popey, aha. my mistake. i saw people trying and assumed we did
[13:04] <persia> NCommander: Yeah, but it doesn't hit the right logs.  Just start :)
[13:04]  * elky goes to grep logs for the culprit
[13:04]  * persia will go hunt down the culprit
[13:04]  * persia leaves it to elky
 Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is bjf. <-- is the latest successful i see in backscroll, but my backscroll has gaps
[13:05] <elky> i'll confirm with my proxy logs :)
[13:05] <bjf> #endmeeting
[13:05] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:05.
[13:05] <elky> win
[13:05] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[13:05] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:05. The chair is NCommander.
[13:05] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:05] <persia> heh :)
[13:05] <NCommander> :-)
[13:06] <GrueMaster> sneaky
[13:06] <cooloney> cook
[13:06] <cooloney> cool
[13:06] <elky> now, someone tell bjf he has a meeting log to process.
[13:06] <cooloney> elky: i will do that. heh :)
[13:06] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091222
[13:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091222
[13:07] <NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:07] <NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
[13:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
[13:08] <NCommander> who's here?
[13:08] <persia> Lots of people.  Just get on with the agenda :)
[13:09] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[13:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[13:09] <NCommander> [topic] asac to approve outstanding liquid specs
[13:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  asac to approve outstanding liquid specs
[13:09] <persia> They show up on lucid work items tracker, so I presume that's done.
[13:10] <NCommander> [topic] persia to watch the builds and make sure they happen and are testable
[13:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  persia to watch the builds and make sure they happen and are testable
[13:10] <persia> They've been working just fine most of the week.  Today was a failure, but it's transient (and affects all ports).  I'll be digging into it more, and we should be in good shape for tomorrow.
[13:11] <NCommander> [topic] GrueMaster to post LSB test failures for investigation
[13:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  GrueMaster to post LSB test failures for investigation
[13:11] <GrueMaster> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mobile/ArmLSB
[13:11] <GrueMaster> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mobile/ArmLSB
[13:11] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mobile/ArmLSB
[13:12] <GrueMaster> This link is where I will be posting test results as they happen.  Currently, I have test results for OLVER tests on karmic.
[13:12] <NCommander> GrueMaster, are these number of failures expected?
[13:12] <GrueMaster> I have asked members of the LSB community to review the results, but haven't had a response yet.
[13:12] <GrueMaster> Some of them, yes.
[13:13] <GrueMaster> The test suite automatically checks the LSB database against known failures.
[13:13] <NCommander> cool
[13:13] <NCommander> [topic] asac to figure out why dove still uses a 2.6.31 kernel
[13:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  asac to figure out why dove still uses a 2.6.31 kernel
[13:14] <persia> At least the upload of 2.6.31-704.4 on Thursday indicates this is either not done or not reported.
[13:14] <NCommander> At the risk of being dense
[13:14] <persia> Shall we carry over (I have a suspicion that asac isn't responding to highlights)
[13:14] <GrueMaster> iirc, didn't davidm say something about fsl not moving to .32?
[13:14] <NCommander> I thought we were on a 31 kernel because thats what was provided?
[13:15] <persia> GrueMaster: linux-mvl-dove vs linux-fsl-imx51
[13:15] <cooloney> GrueMaster: yeah, fsl won't move to .32 in lucid cycle, i think
[13:15] <persia> cooloney: Do you have updated information about -mvl-dove ?
[13:16] <cooloney> and for dove, eric might still don't have .32 patches from marvell
[13:16] <cooloney> but i believe marvell will move to .32, i will ask eric to talk with marvell guys
[13:16] <persia> cooloney: Would you be up for taking ownership of the action?
[13:16] <cooloney> persia: no problem,
[13:16] <cooloney> heh
[13:17] <persia> NCommander: ^^
[13:17] <NCommander> bah
[13:18] <NCommander> [topic] dyfet to prepare a test kernel build with the patch in bug 494831
[13:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  dyfet to prepare a test kernel build with the patch in bug 494831
[13:18] <NCommander> there we go
[13:18] <persia> Erm, what about cooloney's [ACTION] ?
[13:19] <NCommander> [actopm] cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
[13:19] <NCommander> [actiom] cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
[13:19] <NCommander> ...
[13:19] <NCommander> [action] cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
[13:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
[13:19] <cooloney> heh, i got 3 actions, OMG
[13:19]  * NCommander buries his head
[13:20] <persia> Nah.  One action.  The others were actopms and actioms : not as critical to handle :)
[13:20] <NCommander> As for dyfet's action, this patch was uploaded last week, which seems to fix lucid images nicely
[13:20] <NCommander> there's an SRU in progress to karmic
[13:21] <persia> Accepted 20 hours ago, so it's in karmic-proposed, and needs testing.
[13:21] <persia> Any volunteers to test?
[13:21]  * NCommander will if he reinstalls to karmic, which might happen later today
[13:21]  * NCommander waves to ericm 
[13:21] <persia> Then action yourself :)
[13:21]  * ericm waves back to NCommander
[13:22] <cooloney> ok, i don't need any action
[13:22] <cooloney> ericm: a quick question,
[13:22] <ericm> cooloney, sure
[13:22] <cooloney> ericm: why is dove still using .31?
[13:22] <cooloney> do you know when it will move .32?
[13:22] <ericm> looks marvell is still working on that
[13:22] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to test karmic SRU kernel
[13:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to test karmic SRU kernel
[13:23] <ericm> NCommander, ogra, any news from Marvell on the next drop?
[13:23] <cooloney> ericm: ok,
[13:23] <NCommander> ericm, sorry, haven't heard anything
[13:23] <NCommander> ericm, I can ask Marvell however, I have to email them on another issue
[13:24] <ericm> NCommander, that will be helpful
[13:24] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to email Marvell about the date of the next expected kernel drop
[13:24] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to email Marvell about the date of the next expected kernel drop
[13:24] <NCommander> [topic] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere
[13:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere
[13:25] <persia> At least I failed completely to document that clearly.
[13:25] <persia> And I didn't see anything from anyone else.  Can we carry that over?
[13:25] <NCommander> [action] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
[13:25] <MootBot> ACTION received:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
[13:26] <cooloney> persia: i believe ogra mentioned some feature of .32 for backporting before
[13:26] <NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
[13:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
[13:26] <persia> cooloney: Yes, but we were supposed to create a list to submit to the kernel team, which we didn't do yet.  I'll try to make sure we do that for next week.
[13:27] <cooloney> persia: thx, that's really helpful
[13:27] <NCommander> [topic] mobile-lucid-bringup-testing (plars)
[13:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-lucid-bringup-testing (plars)
[13:28] <NCommander> hrm
[13:28] <persia> spec review?  Where's that on the agenda?
[13:28] <NCommander> persia, workitems/spec is on there
[13:28] <NCommander> (the link to the current spec page is)
[13:29] <persia> Ah.  I thought that was workitem status review, rather than spec review.
[13:29] <NCommander> persia, well, I kinda see it as both
[13:29] <NCommander> I don't think we have enough people to properly do a spec or workitem review, so I'm going to skip it
[13:29] <persia> Don't mind me: it's your meeting :)
[13:29] <NCommander> heh
[13:29] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status
[13:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status
[13:30] <NCommander> Actually have some news on this one
[13:30]  * GrueMaster debates splitting up work items on mobile-lucid-arm-lib-tests for better granularity.
[13:30] <NCommander> Dove images are working again on Y0.
[13:30] <persia> All three built great on the 20th.
[13:30] <NCommander> three?
[13:30] <persia> Yeah.
[13:30] <NCommander> We only have two SoCs
[13:30] <persia> Current Ubuntu images failed today because of initramfs-tools version skew, but should be fixed tomorrow.
[13:30] <StevenK> I'll be changing them probably this week
[13:30] <NCommander> They're also working on Y1, but I'm seeing some unusual issues. Might just be me, need someone else with a Y1 to reconfirm
[13:30] <NCommander> Alternate images should work now
[13:30] <ericm> NCommander, what're the issues on Y1?
[13:31] <NCommander> ericm, I'm see an I2C lockup
[13:31] <persia> Kubuntu Netbook (dove only) failed today due to libphonon4 skew and something with samba I haven't identified yet.
[13:31] <NCommander> ericm, mv64xxx_i2c mv64xxx_i2c.0: mv64xxx: I2C bus locked, block: 1, time_left: 0
[13:31] <NCommander> ericm, and it hangs for 4-5 minutes before it continues booting
[13:31] <ericm> NCommander, they have some patches currently pending - since they introduced a suspend/resume regression
[13:31] <NCommander> ericm, oh, so this is "expected" behavior?
[13:31] <ericm> we are currently working on identify the very patch, but other patches may help on this problem
[13:32] <ericm> I'm not saying that - but I'll check
[13:32] <NCommander> ericm, ah, ok. I was going to kick an email to you on this today, but I can strike that from ym TODO list now :-)
[13:32] <ericm> NCommander, we have a LP for this yet?
[13:32] <NCommander> ericm, not yet. I wanted to confirm it wasn't just my board
[13:33] <NCommander> Anyway
[13:33] <ericm> OK, will wait for you email and get it reproduced here at my side
[13:33] <NCommander> Anyone around who's willing to test lucid alternates?
[13:33] <ericm> NCommander, I can test it on dove here
[13:33] <persia> I can start watching the alternates too, to make sure they build
[13:33]  * persia has been failing to do that
[13:34] <NCommander> persia, that would be helpful. I'm only tracking xubuntu image builds ATM (need to poke cjwatson and get that changed)
[13:34] <persia> Is there an Xubuntu arm build I should be tracking?
[13:34]  * persia was only tracking Ubuntu and Kubuntu
[13:35] <NCommander> persia, ubuntu, kubuntu, server, and xubuntu build for all architectures
[13:35] <NCommander> kubuntu-netbook build for i386 and armel+*
[13:35] <persia> Right.  My list has now been expanded :)
[13:35] <NCommander> oh, and netboot
[13:35] <GrueMaster> We need a defined list of what we are officially testing, as all I knew about was the ubuntu-desktop images.
[13:36] <NCommander> GrueMaster, what we test officially is just ubuntu and ubuntu-netbook once the later is availabnle on ARM
[13:36] <GrueMaster> o
[13:36] <GrueMaster> ok
[13:36] <NCommander> But I like to track image build failures across the board
[13:36] <NCommander> since its usually a larger problem that needs to be fixed if an email goes bust
[13:36] <NCommander> s/email/image/g
[13:36] <persia> And of course, there's no reason *not* to get everything tested, assuming that there are sufficient volunteers
[13:37] <NCommander> +1 persia
[13:37] <persia> NCommander: Do you have a current picture of which images are on the ISO tracker?
[13:37] <NCommander> persia, just ubuntu live images
[13:38] <NCommander> Alternates need to be added for Alpha 2
[13:38] <persia> OK.  If things are building cleanly, I'll go bug others to look at getting their stuff on there.
[13:38] <NCommander> and I believe we're going to be moving from UNE on Live.
[13:38] <NCommander> persia, if you get it added, feel free to clear the work item out and move the spec to implemented if today's smoke test passes
[13:38] <persia> Alternates weren't building cleanly last I checked though :)
[13:38] <persia> heh.  OK.
[13:39] <persia> I'm done with image status, unless someone else has something to share.
[13:39] <NCommander> persia, server's britney status is clear
[13:40] <persia> Excellent.  That's what I get for not checking.
[13:41] <NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
[13:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[13:41] <NCommander> going once?
[13:42] <NCommander> Oh yes
[13:42] <NCommander> No meetings again until after new years
[13:42] <NCommander> Next meeting will be on January 5th, 2010
[13:42] <persia> Cool!
[13:43] <NCommander> Everyone have a happy holidays, and a safe New Years!
[13:43] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[13:43] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:43.
[13:43]  * GrueMaster returns to hibernate mode
[13:44] <cooloney> thanks,
[13:44] <cooloney> siya
[14:58] <pitti> Keybuk, kees, mdz, cjwatson: DMB meeting in 2? (I know that cjwatson is on holidays, and mdz is in a call)
[14:58] <pitti> so I propose we just wait until mdz returns from his other call
[14:58] <Keybuk> is there much to cover?
[14:59] <pitti> just tseliot's core-dev application
[14:59] <pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
[14:59] <pitti> nothing else so far
[15:00] <Keybuk> oh, +1
[15:00] <Keybuk> :p
[15:01] <pitti> Keybuk: any further questions to Alberto? If not, I'll just record your vote (and my +1, too :) ), and keep collecting until we have a quorum
[15:01] <pitti> meeting, the xmas distributed fashion :)
[15:01] <tseliot> :-)
[15:02] <pitti> tseliot: thanks for your excellent upstream situation summary (by mail)
[15:02] <persia> pitti: I added an item to talk about documentation changes, although it can be postponed if appropriate.
[15:02] <Keybuk> pitti: I've been working closely with Alberto for the past couple of months, I have no questions and a ringing endorsement :p
[15:03] <pitti> persia: what do you want to change in particular?
[15:03] <tseliot> pitti: it didn't make it into the mailing list but at least each one of you received it
[15:03] <persia> pitti: I'm updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers to reflect the DMB, and had some outstanding questions regarding roles and nomenclature.
[15:06] <pitti> persia: go ahead, nothing else ongoing right now anyway :)
[15:06] <persia> OK.  First up: should applicants for core-dev be applying directly to the DMB, rather than first through the MC?
[15:07] <pitti> persia: from a documentation POV, I'd say yes
[15:07] <pitti> we'll merge DMB/MC soon (see mdz's announcement and upcoming voting)
[15:08] <pitti> so from then on there will only be one board anyway, AFAIUI
[15:08] <persia> I've seen that, and it's part of that which drives my documentation changes :)
[15:08] <mdz> pitti, here now
[15:08] <mdz> persia, yes, they should apply to the DMB
[15:08] <pitti> mdz: ah, good
[15:08] <persia> Next is that should core-dev applicants be encouraged to previously be Ubuntu Developers (in some way), or is that on a per-applicant basis?
[15:09] <persia> s/that//
[15:09] <pitti> Personally I have some mixed feelings about that; I often see contributors who start working on packages in main, and it always takes some synthetic effort to become active on universe packages
[15:10] <pitti> but it's not the general case, of course
[15:10] <pitti> what's your feeling about that?
[15:10] <persia> I had thought that would be covered by groups like Kubuntu Developers or Ubuntu Desktop developers.
[15:10] <pitti> now that we have delegations and packagesets, it might make more sense to directly apply to kubuntu-dev, and the like
[15:10] <mdz> persia, both ways are appropriate IMO
[15:10] <mdz> if their interests align with a particular team, then it's a good idea for them to start there
[15:10] <persia> OK.  I won't add any specific encouragement that applicants first become developers in another way.
[15:11] <pitti> so I think an applicant should apply to the team that he wants to work in
[15:11] <mdz> but going directly to core-dev should be a valid option as well
[15:11] <mdz> (with a higher barrier to entry)
[15:11] <persia> OK.
[15:11] <pitti> persia: does that match your feeling, too?
[15:11] <persia> Does the DMB also expect to take applicants for Contributing Developer?
[15:12] <pitti> i. e. should we discuss it further, or is it just collecting "me too"s?
[15:12] <persia> pitti: I'm comfortable with the idea of permitting applicants directly to core-dev with a higher barrier to entry.
[15:13] <pitti> I admit that I'm not that familiar with the "contributing developer" concept; what additional privileges does that entail, over being a member?
[15:14] <persia> None whatsoever.
[15:14] <persia> It was just how the CC decided to implement the MC being able to grant membership.
[15:14] <persia> So it exists as a way to document those members who primary contribute through development, but are not yet developers.
[15:14] <pitti> so it's pretty much a "badge of honor"
[15:15] <pitti> ah, I see
[15:15] <persia> Well, you get an email address, business cards, etc.
[15:15] <pitti> ^ that's membership already
[15:15] <persia> Precisely :)
[15:16] <persia> As currently implemented, MC doesn't have admin to ~ubuntumembers, so the extra group exists to permit members to be added.
[15:17] <persia> I'm not convinced this should remain an MC function with the existence of the DMB, and am more curious to hear opinions from the DMB.
[15:17] <pitti> so, it seems to me that groups which can grant membership should also be able to grant "membership because of devlopment contributions"
[15:17] <persia> Ultimately, it may be a CC decision to formally change things, but I'm sure MC and DMB can come to agreement in the meantime.
[15:18] <persia> pitti: They can, but many of the Regional Membership Boards don't feel able to review contributions limited to development.
[15:18] <pitti> I see
[15:18] <persia> And not everyone qualifies for Edubuntu membership or Kubuntu membership
[15:19] <pitti> so as long as we need this intermediate state because different people make the call, it should probably stay in the MC/DMB area until the structure changes in more fundamental ways
[15:20] <persia> Does it seem appropriate that it be described as a DMB function, and the DMB shall receive applications?
[15:20] <pitti> at least for now this seems sensible to me
[15:20] <pitti> mdz?
[15:20] <mdz> hmm
[15:21] <mdz> I feel (and I'm pretty sure sabdfl has said as well) that developer privileges should imply membership
[15:21] <persia> They do.
[15:21] <mdz> persia, so why doesn't MC have admin on ~ubuntumembers?
[15:21] <persia> I'm not sure.
[15:21] <persia> MC has admin on MOTU, which is a member of ~ubuntumembers, which satisfies the implication you mention.
[15:22] <mdz> I think the DMB should be able to grant membership independent of developer privileges
[15:22] <persia> MC also has admin on ~universe-contributors which is a member of ~ubuntumembers
[15:22] <pitti> but "contributing developer" is a step before becoming an official developer with upload rights, isn't it?
[15:22] <persia> Not necessarily a step along the way, but it's often done that way.
[15:22] <mdz> yes, it seems "contributing developer" means "someone who has made contributions sufficient to qualify for Ubuntu membership, but not yet upload privileges"
[15:22] <ScottK> Contributing developer is nothing more than member via development contribution
[15:23] <persia> Right.
[15:23] <mdz> the DMB can and should do that as well
[15:23] <persia> So the "Contributing Developer" group exists to permit the MC to grant membership separately from upload rights, and I think that it would be appropriate for the DMB to absorb that function (and haven't heard dissent from other MC in email discussions)
[15:24] <pitti> right, so seems we all agree then?
[15:24] <persia> OK.  So I'll document it as a DMB function, and I trust that MC will support DMB decisions until we can ask the CC to make the appropriate change.
[15:24] <persia> Anyone want to take that to the CC, or shall I?
[15:25] <mdz> pitti, is MootBot broken?
[15:25] <pitti> I didn't start it TBH
[15:25] <pitti> #startmeeting
[15:25] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:25. The chair is pitti.
[15:25] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:25] <pitti> for formality's sake
[15:26] <pitti> [TOPIC] Updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers documentation
[15:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Updating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers documentation
[15:26] <pitti> persia: so the change would be to make MC an admin of ubuntu-members, right? or did you think of something else?
[15:26] <mdz> MC and DMB, no?
[15:26] <pitti> right
[15:27] <persia> pitti: I figured I'd just leave the structure as is, and ask the CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors rather than the MC
[15:27] <pitti> ah, right; I was confused, sorry
[15:27] <persia> Having the DMB be a direct admin of ~ubuntumembers makes more sense to me, but that's a different discussion.
[15:28] <pitti> [ACTION] persia to ask CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors, as part of the DMB/MC merge
[15:28] <persia> OK.  Next question:
[15:28] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to ask CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors, as part of the DMB/MC merge
[15:28] <pitti> sounds ok?
[15:28] <persia> Sounds fine :)
[15:29] <persia> Would it make sense to list MOTU (and MC) as a delegated team by DMB?
[15:29] <pitti> since MC is being merged into DMB, I don't think we need to mention that part
[15:29] <persia> technically the delegation was from the TB, but I expect that it would be from the DMB was an application made now.
[15:30] <persia> Oh well, it made the documetation easier to have a parallel between "Ubuntu Desktop Developer", "Kubuntu Developer" and "MOTU" as groups that could only upload to some subset of the archive.
[15:30] <pitti> for MOTU, I'm not sure; either (from TB or DMB) make sense to me
[15:31] <pitti> from DMB is more consistent documentation-wise, from TB preserves history and is more focused on the main/universe split
[15:31] <mdz> consistency and comprehensibility are more important than history or historical archive structure
[15:32] <persia> I also prefer consistency.
[15:32] <persia> History can get a w.u.c/MOTU/History page :)
[15:32]  * pitti nods
[15:33] <ScottK> Except the residual functionality of MC post-merge won't be developer approval related?
[15:34] <persia> OK.  Last question: Is the term "Ubuntu Specialist Developer" acceptable as an umbrella category to describe members of "Ubuntu Desktop Developers", "Mythbuntu Developers", "Kubuntu Developers", and "MOTU"?
[15:34] <mdz> I'd rather emphasize the team orientation than the specialization if possible
[15:34] <pitti> hm, MOTU seems to be the counterpart of "specialist" to me
[15:34] <persia> ScottK: I think it depends on the outcome of any potential "merge" of the DMB and the MC.  If merged, it doesn't make sense.  If unmerged, I presume the MC would seek admin for MOTU.
[15:35] <pitti> aren't all those just "Ubuntu Developers"?
[15:35] <persia> Yeah, I wasn't very happy with "Specialist" in that context either.  In my draft, I used "Component", but don't want to overload that term.
[15:35] <ScottK> persia: I think we had a general consensus at UDS, that MC would remain for dispute resolutions and such within the MOTU community.
[15:35] <persia> pitti: Yes, but they are distinct from other types of Ubuntu Developers (Prospective, Contributing, Core, and Per-package).
[15:36] <persia> ScottK: That was also my memory, but I think it deserves it's own TOPIC in a meeting, rather than being part of my documentation questions.
[15:36] <mdz> persia, is "member of an Ubuntu development team" too unwieldy?
[15:37] <ScottK> persia: Certainly, but it's rather core to the question of where MC's delegation comes from.
[15:37] <persia> mdz: No, it's structural.  So, looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers there are nice categories.
[15:37] <persia> The delegated teams can be listed individually, but two of the three have already put up their own separate pages
[15:38] <pitti> "Ubuntu Team Developer"?
[15:38] <persia> Which made me want to have a general category for delegated teams with links to all the individual teams, rather than collapsing it all into one page.
[15:39] <persia> My only fear with "Ubuntu Team Developer" is that it may imply lack of team attitude for other types of developers.
[15:40] <pitti> right, and since in the end everyone is a team member, it's not any more descriptive than just UD
[15:40] <persia> ScottK: Interesting point.  Would you concede that if the MC has permission to grant upload rights, that permission is granted by the DMB, regardless of any other delegations to the MC that may exist?
[15:41] <ScottK> persia: Certainly.  In the current structure and developer approval related functions come from DMB
[15:41] <persia> ScottK: OK.  I'll update MOTU/Council to reflect mutiple sorts of delegations (pending separate discussion regarding the future of MC)
[15:42] <pitti> so, I can't seem to make up a good term for this concept
[15:44] <pitti> persia: would it be okay to do the documentation with "Ubuntu Developer (from delegated team)" for now, and update the name later?
[15:44] <persia> OK.  For now, I'll just list all the types separately (with some duplication to the Kubuntu Developers page and the Ubuntu Desktop Developers page), and we can think about it more later for the next refresh.
[15:44] <persia> pitti: That's a much better idea than my compromise :)  Sure.
[15:44] <pitti> sounds better than "Ubuntu Special Developer Forces" anyway :)
[15:44] <persia> That's it for my topic.  Thanks a lot for the input.
[15:44] <persia> :)
[15:45] <pitti> thanks a lot for updating the documentation!
[15:45] <pitti> ok, so back to
[15:45] <ScottK> persia: BTW, the Kubuntu developers page was derived from the MOTU page, but I think it makes sense to keep each page a "complete" description and live with the duplication.
[15:45] <mdz> pitti, FYI I added a couple of things to the agenda
[15:45] <pitti> [TOPIC] core-dev application for tseliot
[15:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  core-dev application for tseliot
[15:45] <persia> ScottK: Agreed (and pitti's suggestion permits that)
[15:45] <tseliot> o/
[15:45] <pitti> mdz: do you want to ask tseliot some questions or are you ready for voting?
[15:45] <mdz> pitti, no questions
[15:46] <ScottK> Surely there have to be questions?
[15:46] <pitti> ScottK: do you have some?
[15:46] <pitti> ScottK: (FYI, we already had the topic in the last meeting)
[15:46] <ScottK> pitti: OK, nevermind then.
[15:46] <pitti> since then Alberto sent a followup with some details
[15:46] <pitti> (by mail)
[15:46] <mdz> I followed the MC and DMB discussions by mail
[15:46]  * tseliot nods
[15:47] <ScottK> No matter how qualified, I think everyone should get questions.  If he already had his, that's fine.
[15:47] <pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
[15:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlbertoMilone/CoreDeveloperApplication
[15:47] <pitti> [LINK] http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/11/26/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[15:47] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/11/26/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[15:47] <pitti> for the record
[15:48] <pitti> [VOTE] tseliot core-dev application
[15:48] <MootBot> Please vote on:  tseliot core-dev application.
[15:48] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:48] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:48] <pitti> +1
[15:48] <mdz> +1
[15:48] <MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:48] <MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:48] <mdz> Keybuk, poke
[15:48] <pitti> Keybuk: can you formally throw in your vote again, plese?
[15:48] <Keybuk> +1
[15:48] <MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[15:48] <pitti> [ENDVOTE]
[15:48] <MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
[15:49] <pitti> tseliot: congrats, and thanks for your great work!
[15:49] <tseliot> thanks a lot everyone :-)
[15:49] <pitti> [TOPIC] DMB election
[15:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  DMB election
[15:49] <pitti> mdz: thanks for collecting the delegates so far
[15:49] <mdz> I sent an email to the mailing list with details
[15:50] <pitti> AIUI we now need some details from Mark how to actually run it?
[15:50] <mdz> so far there are 10 nominations
[15:50] <mdz> I am waiting for confirmation from 1 further nominee that they are willing to stand
[15:50] <mdz> and otherwise am ready to start the vote
[15:50] <mdz> do you think we should go ahead and start it this week, or wait until the new year?
[15:51] <mdz> and how long should the voting period be?
[15:51] <pitti> personally I'd be in favor of running it over the holidays, and an extra two work weeks
[15:51] <mdz> makes sense to me
[15:51] <pitti> since community members might have more time to think about this over some holidays
[15:52] <mdz> me too
[15:52] <Keybuk> agree
[15:52] <mdz> so the question then is, how long should I wait for confirmation if someone is nominated by a third party, before starting the vote?
[15:53] <pitti> it's only Benjamin Drung who is left, right?
[15:53] <mdz> pitti, no, he confirmed and will be on the ballot
[15:53] <pitti> ah, right
[15:54] <Keybuk> the person in question is online, talking on IRC, but didn't respond to my poke
[15:54] <Keybuk> *shrug*
[15:54] <mdz> Keybuk, they did respond to me, and said they hadn't decided yet
[15:54] <persia> I'd think that anyone who couldn't confirm their ability to stand within two weeks would be ill suited toserve on a meeting happening every two weeks.  Dunno how long the query has been pending.
[15:54] <mdz> persia, only since Friday
[15:55] <Keybuk> it does seem reasonable to give an amount of time to decide
[15:55] <mdz> shall we say Thursday?
[15:56] <Keybuk> sounds fair
[15:56] <mdz> I'll go ahead with the confirmed candidates then
[15:56] <pitti> I guess nobody will be online/read mail Thu to Sat at least
[15:56] <mdz> note I haven't requested confirmation from the TB or MC; instead they need to explicitly decline if they don't want to continue
[15:56] <persia> But we've had two weeks to explicitly decline, which should be more than fair.
[15:57] <mdz> right, I'm not concerned about that
[15:57] <mdz> shall we say 3 weeks for the voting period?
[15:57] <pitti> sounds fine
[15:57] <persia> Starting from Friday, or sometime next week?
[15:58] <mdz> starting Thursday
[15:58] <mdz> so 24 Dec through 14 January
[15:58] <persia> I'd think it better to do 3.5 weeks starting Thursday, as so many of our developers are in areas where they may not get mail sent UK Thursday until midweek next.
[15:59] <persia> Or three weeks starting Monday.
[15:59] <mdz> so 19 Jan?
[15:59] <mdz> 18 Jan
[15:59] <mdz> any objections?
[16:00] <Keybuk> none
[16:00] <pitti> [AGREED] DMB voting period: 24 Dec to 18 Jan
[16:00] <MootBot> AGREED received:  DMB voting period: 24 Dec to 18 Jan
[16:00] <mdz> [agreed] voting period from 24 dec through 18 jan
[16:00] <mdz> pitti, :-)
[16:00] <mdz> GMTA
[16:00] <pitti> time is up
[16:00] <Keybuk> mdz: we really need to cure you of this back-seat chairing <g>
[16:00] <pitti> "MOTU direction" this seems to be a full meeting hour on its own?
[16:01] <pitti> ScottK: ok to move that to the next meeting?
[16:01] <pitti> then cjwatson will be back, too
[16:01] <ScottK> pitti: Definitely and we need cjwatson in any case.
[16:01] <pitti> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
[16:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
[16:01] <mdz> pitti, I think so. there is presently an action outstanding for the notes to get written up
[16:01] <mdz> it would be good to have that completed for the next meeting so that we can discuss
[16:02] <pitti> Keybuk: do you volunteer?
[16:02] <mdz> a pretty complete proposal was discussed at UDS which needs to get circulated
[16:02] <Keybuk> pitti: no, I'm unlikely to be able to chair the next meeting
[16:02] <Keybuk> (and won't be a member of the DMB at the following one )
[16:02] <pitti> ok (same for me)
[16:02] <mdz> when is the next one?
[16:03] <Keybuk> 5th Jan
[16:03] <pitti> Jan 5
[16:03] <mdz> I can do it
[16:03] <pitti> ok, thanks
[16:03] <pitti> [AGREED] mdz to chair next meeting
[16:03] <MootBot> AGREED received:  mdz to chair next meeting
[16:03] <pitti> #endmeeting
[16:03] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:03.
[16:03] <pitti> thanks to everyone, and happy $end_of_year holidays!
[16:03]  * pitti goes to fill the team report and do announcements
[16:04] <tseliot> happy $end_of_year holidays from me too!
[17:18] <Seeker`> #startmeeting
[17:18] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:18. The chair is Seeker`.
[17:18] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:18] <Seeker`> #endmeeting
[17:18] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:18.