[00:24] <grex23> yo
[00:25] <MenZa> Huh.
[01:03] <Pricey> Leaving that on bazhang?
[01:03] <bazhang> Pricey, going to PM
[01:04] <Pricey> Offline.
[01:04] <bazhang> yep
[01:30] <MenZa> I'll speak to xeer.
[01:30] <MenZa> (in PM)
[01:32] <MenZa> Unresponsive.
[01:37] <MenZa> ubottu: tell xeer about coc
[01:37] <MenZa> ubottu: tell xeer about guidelines
[01:38] <MenZa> He's responding, but he's not being very accepting of what I'm telling him.
[01:38] <bazhang> quelle surprise
[01:39] <MenZa> Indeed.
[01:39] <MenZa> I'd like some advice for what to do here, bazhang
[01:39] <MenZa> Erm, well
[01:39] <MenZa> Let's see what happens in the future
[01:39] <MenZa> He
[01:39] <bazhang> not sure MenZa
[01:40] <MenZa> He's agreed to abide by the CoC and the Guidelines in the future
[01:40] <MenZa> So we'll see what happens
[01:40] <bazhang> seems like it got hot quite quickly
[01:40] <MenZa> If I see digitalaxis around, I'll make sure to grab him to tell him it's been resolved.
[01:40] <MenZa> I'm not too happy to see a user have an issue, wait for a long time, then quit before it was even resolved.
[01:40] <MenZa> (with another user, that is)
[01:40] <MenZa> It makes me a sad panda :(
[01:41] <bazhang> heh
[01:41] <MenZa> The amount of ops around these hours has been far too scarce lately.
[01:41]  * MenZa hopes it gets better.
[01:41] <bazhang> it was resolved though
[01:41] <MenZa> Aye.
[01:41] <bazhang> yep. normally I am working at this time
[01:41] <MenZa> I still think I'd be left with a sense of "the ops don't care" if I'd been digitalaxis.
[01:42] <MenZa> bazhang: Did you see my entry on ubuntu-irc@lists?
[01:42] <bazhang> MenZa, yep
[01:42] <MenZa> good good
[01:42] <MenZa> I had issues /last/ night as well.
[01:42] <bazhang> whoa
[01:43] <MenZa> Yeah.
[03:35] <elky> oh no it's not
[03:36] <maco> thats alias jfgi
[03:36] <elky> !google
[03:36] <maco> or at least, thats where i think itd go
[03:36] <elky> !jfgi
[03:36] <elky> decide which lmgtfy should go
[03:37] <maco> id say the second
[03:37] <bazhang> yep
[03:37] <maco> since the first is "youre trying to be helpful but thats not how we do it" and the second is "you're being a sarcastic jerkwad"
[04:07] <elky> !-jfgi
[04:08] <elky> !lmgtfy is <alias> noob
[04:08] <elky> !lmgtfy
[05:39] <MenZa> ubottu: whoami
[05:39] <MenZa> @whoami
[05:40] <MenZa> Hmm.
[09:05] <MenZa> !empathy
[09:07] <MenZa> !no, !empathy <reply> Empathy is the default instant messaging and video client for GNOME. Since Karmic, it has been the default client in Ubuntu (replacing Pidgin).
[09:07] <MenZa> keke.
[09:11] <tsimpson> !no, !empathy <reply> Empathy is the default instant messaging and video client for GNOME. Since Karmic, it has been the default client in Ubuntu (replacing Pidgin).
[09:11] <tsimpson> !no, !empathy is <reply> Empathy is the default instant messaging and video client for GNOME. Since Karmic, it has been the default client in Ubuntu (replacing Pidgin).
[09:12] <tsimpson> !no, empathy is <reply> Empathy is the default instant messaging and video client for GNOME. Since Karmic, it has been the default client in Ubuntu (replacing Pidgin).
[09:12]  * tsimpson kick starts brain
[09:12] <tsimpson> !empathy
[09:30]  * MenZa nods at tsimpson 
[09:31] <MenZa> jussi01: Same issues the past two nights :(
[09:31] <jussi01> MenZa: huh?
[09:31] <MenZa> jussi01: My last mailing list thread.
[09:31] <MenZa> Noone was available for a while.
[09:32] <jussi01> MenZa: yes, we are putting measures in place to deal with it.
[09:32] <MenZa> \o/ jussi01
[09:32] <MenZa> jussi01: I just thought I'd let you know; I wasn't criticising you for not dealing with it quick enough. It's perfectly cool you guys have some time to settle in first :)
[09:33] <jussi01> MenZa: its a matter of getting proceedural changes into place first.
[09:33] <MenZa> 'swhat I meant.
[10:31] <elky> MenZa, a word of advice: having a private word to people is less pressure than announcing to a mailing list.
[10:32] <MenZa> elky: I'm a very open-minded person. I don't necessarily imply it's the most terrible thing in the world if I ship off something to a mailing list. It was also to get second opinions on the issue.
[10:33] <elky> MenZa, it's not a terrible thing, but the public nature *does* put pressure on people
[10:34] <elky> just speaking from experience having been in several public governance roles
[10:34] <MenZa> elky: I'm sure you're familiar with Linus' Law---I think it applies in this case, too. I'm not calling the IRC Council out saying "these guys are doing a bad job, jeez" at all; I'm merely stating what I think is an issue, and ask for more opinions on them, and to allow for discussion of the matter.
[10:37] <MenZa> I've always been a big fan of openness, and I don't think it's a problem that people know these things. nor should it be for anyone, unless I'm specifically acusing them of something.
[10:37] <elky> MenZa, i'm saying that a heads up first is good manners and allows people to manage the pressures of such roles. i'm not saying don't mention it, i'm saying be considerate
[10:39] <MenZa> elky: I don't see why such an e-mail couldn't be considered a "heads up". It's perfectly okay for the IRC Council not to be aware of such a problem, considering most of them (from memory) aren't online at that point. the same pretty much goes for the previous IRC Council.
[10:39] <MenZa> I see a problem, I point it out, it's acknowledged and dealt with when such an action is required or possible to implement.
[10:40] <elky> MenZa, you're not giving the IRCC much credit if you think they're not aware of timezones that are not well covered. you're not giving them a heads up that you want to start a discussion by starting said discussion out of the blue.
[10:42] <MenZa> elky: I wouldn't tell any member of any council to remember what timezones their subordinates (for a lack of a better term) are in. Nor would I tell them to pull the entire weightload of the cart they're supposed to be responsible for.
[10:43] <elky> MenZa, the council is aware and was aware before your email. had you tried to give them a heads up, they likely would have told you so.
[10:44] <MenZa> elky: so much for the openness I've always been advocating. where was my opportunity to say I would be available at those times anyway for the period x to y?
[10:45] <MenZa> (in terms of conflict resolution, not +o flags)
[10:45] <MenZa> or other operators, for that sake
[10:45] <elky> MenZa, openness doesn't mean that things cannot be discussed privately evar or the world will implode.
[10:45] <elky> MenZa, openness does not nullify the concept of manners, forewarning or other courtesies.
[10:46] <elky> i should hope nobody within our community is subject to a presidential communications standard. not even Mark.
[10:47] <MenZa> elky: I don't disagree, but I still don't quite understand /how/ sending an e-mail to a mailing list could be considered uncourteous in any way.
[10:48] <gord> sending a mail to a mailing list makes it an "offical" "recorded" "thing", removes any sense of casualness
[10:49] <MenZa> gord: I think that's one way of perceiving it
[10:49] <elky> MenZa, depends what impression that mail gives. my response was pertinent to your claiming to not be putting pressure on the new IRCC and offering a suggestion as to how you could have avoided putting pressure on them
[10:49] <MenZa> What is this, ubuntu-irc-announce-secret-docs?
[10:49] <MenZa> elky: that's an interpretation
[10:49] <elky> since i'll guarantee that your mail *DID* put pressure on them.
[10:49] <MenZa> elky: it certainly wasn't my intention.
[10:49] <MenZa> as I also accounted for in a reply to jussi's mail
[10:49] <elky> and i'll guarantee that based on my experiences in said roles.
[10:50] <jussi01> I think elky is right to a point, and so is gord. It would have been better, IMHO, to first send a mail to the ircc list.
[10:50]  * elky knows she's right :P
[10:51] <MenZa> I haven't held such a role in any foss (or online) community before, but I have in real-life organisations. sending an e-mail pointing out a problem to our mailing list was never an issue for me, or anyone else involved.
[10:51] <elky> you've got no idea the weight that's been lifted this past week. not only here, but also for the national australian body which i've decided to take a year off standing for
[10:51] <MenZa> elky: I know how much work is involved in these things.
[10:53] <MenZa> and I'm not questioning the good work that's being done in any way; on the contrary, I appreciate it greatly
[10:54] <elky> MenZa, you've not demonstrated that understanding to me. you have demonstrated that your experiences differ greatly to mine, and my experiences include the IRCC.
[10:55] <MenZa> elky: what you're currently demonstrating is arrogance and a sense of superiority.
[10:55] <MenZa> can't we keep it civil?
[10:55] <MenZa> I understand your views, and I see they differ from mine.
[10:56] <MenZa> Just because I have a different perception of how community dynamics function, I can /understand/ your views.
[10:57] <MenZa> I don't want this to turn into a nasty argument or ruin our personal relationship though, so I'll drop it here
[10:57] <MenZa> elky: I'll consider my move differently next time and take this into account, however -- trust that.
[10:57] <MenZa> (this != our argument, but you and gord's shared views)
[10:57] <elky> MenZa, well, you've already called me arrogant and told me i have a sense of superiority for explaining a POV that you neglected to observe.
[10:58] <elky> so sorry, but you've already overstepped a line.
[10:59] <gord> guys, this is getting personal and counter-productive
[10:59] <MenZa> it is
[10:59] <MenZa> I apologise, elky
[10:59] <MenZa> genuinely. I did cross a line.
[10:59] <elky> yes, insults tend to do that to discussions. apology accepted.
[10:59] <MenZa> :)
[11:05] <jussi01> Im off, laters.
[11:05] <tsimpson> see you later \o
[11:05] <bazhang> bye
[11:06] <MenZa> <o jussi01
[11:06] <MenZa> s/fail/nofail
[11:42] <nalioth> MenZa: #ubuntu-irc-council exists for a reason
[11:43] <MenZa> nalioth: My immediate comment would be that I might want other opinions on it than those of the IRCC, but I really don't want to do this all over again :)
[13:34] <bazhang> gp trolling multiple channels?
[14:39] <bazhang> bittwist appears to be running two bots in #ubuntu ragebot and wirebot, all are offline now and he/she has not responded to me
[14:40] <bazhang> err prior to going offline
[17:20] <h00k> ...wrong button, apologies
[20:23] <LimCore> hi, what is that:  #ubuntu You're banned from that channel You're banned from that channel
[20:25] <Flannel> LimCore: You're banned from #ubuntu
[20:26] <LimCore> Flannel: when / what / why?
[20:29] <Flannel> LimCore: The 21st of this month (five or so days ago)
[20:30] <LimCore> and how that happened? past the log
[20:33] <LimCore> This is all I said on Ubuntu in last week according to my log: <LimCore>  anyone did setup a VPN on Ubuntu client + Ubuntu server? <LimCore>  TopCat: hwinfo is a gui? <LimCore>  TopCat: last time I usaed mac os, it forced me to watch stupid commercialls on the DVD I bought (WTF?) <LimCore>  ok technically it didnt forced me to *watch* it,  but it force computer to display it with no option to skip   <LimCore>  Good job ubuntu
[20:33] <LimCore> so what is going on? :)
[20:39] <LimCore> can someone tell me why I am now banned?
[20:40] <LimCore> Flannel: based on that paste, do you know why I am banned?
[20:44] <Flannel> LimCore: No, I'm looking, but don't see anything.  There's probably some information missing or something.
[20:45] <LimCore> who banned me then?
[20:46] <LimCore> perhaps saying somewhere ELSE, not in #ubuntu*, that I do not like ubuntu or something about ubutnu - can give a ban in #ubuntu ?
[20:46] <LimCore> altohught that seems to be fundamentally wrong and very Chinese like ;)  Can this be the case?
[20:46] <Flannel> LimCore: I'm not going to speculate
[20:47] <LimCore> is there a rule that would make above expression of opinions a bannable offence?
[20:48] <Flannel> LimCore: Why?  Is that what you were doing on the 21st?  Would you like to fill us in?
[20:49] <LimCore> No I asked now just a question, about rules
[20:51] <LimCore> apparently noone here now to respond to this question? Ok I can wait.
[20:51] <Flannel> Again, I'm not going to speculate about this instance.  However, making statements regarding Ubuntu is your business, not ours.  There are always exceptions, but you're free to opine as long as it's within whatever channels guidelines.
[20:51] <mneptok> @login
[20:51] <LimCore> Flannel: can you check who banned me? Then I can address this issue to a person that probably knows the reason behind this
[20:52] <LimCore> ok I bet ikonia or mneptok
[20:53] <mneptok> why do you think i banned you?
[20:54] <LimCore> mneptok: dunno. I dont see any reason for me to be now banned in #ubuntu. So I must guess, afair only you and/or ikonia ever banned me in #ubuntu*
[20:55] <LimCore> actually I do hope this is some mistake
[20:55] <mneptok> well, your memory is faulty. i never banned you.
[20:55] <LimCore> mneptok: who set my ban in #ubuntu-offtopic?
[20:55] <mneptok> baz_hang did. then removed the ban. elk_y overruled that decision, based on your continued behavior. ikonia then banned you when you dodged the ban.
[20:55] <mneptok> (in #u)
[20:56] <LimCore> you now say about offtopic?
[20:56] <LimCore> well offtopic is not important. What about main channel?
[20:56] <mneptok> i was speaking about the main channel
[20:56] <Flannel> I'm not sure I see a point to this discussion anyway
[20:57] <LimCore> actually ikonia unbanned me around 18th or so
[20:57] <Flannel> LimCore: Nov 24th
[20:57] <LimCore> ok, who gaved me the most recent ban and why?
[20:58] <Flannel> LimCore: We don't know why, that's already been established.
[20:58] <mneptok> 2008-11-11T12:21:35 *** LimCore (LimCore!n=rafal@unaffiliated/limcore) has left #ubuntu (requested by elkbuntu: "Bazhang has been overruled. Your continued misbehaviour is tiring and you *definately* already know better. You are being banned indefinately.")
[20:58] <Flannel> LimCore: I can't make up a reason, but given your history, I don't think it was without cause.
[20:59] <LimCore> ok that was a year ago
[20:59] <LimCore> and recently, indeed on Nov24 (2009) I was unbanned. Now I am banned again
[21:00] <mneptok> the ban may have been removed to free space in the banlist.
[21:00] <mneptok> and yes, it was a year ago. but it says "you are banned indefinitely"
[21:00] <LimCore> right, and then ikonia removed it
[21:00] <mneptok> the ban may have been removed to free space in the banlist. (x2)
[21:01] <Flannel> mneptok: No, the ban was not removed accidentally.
[21:01] <LimCore> it was removed on purpose
[21:01] <LimCore> as I was pm'ed by ikonia
[21:01] <LimCore> since that time and now I did nothing "wrong", I said like 5 lines in #ubuntu and now I come back after xmas and I am banned again :o
[21:02] <Flannel> LimCore: Again, when ikonia returns we'll all know why you were banned on the 21st, until then, I don't think there's any reason for you to remain here.
[21:02] <mneptok> the current ban was set by ikonia. so i find it unlikely he deliberately unbanned you only to ban you again.
[21:02] <LimCore> mneptok: well ikonia PM'ed me saying I am being unbanned, I would paste the log but that is not polite. What you think I am making this up?
[21:03] <mneptok> i'm not going to second guess anyone. neither you nor ikonia.
[21:04] <mneptok> but since you say that i have banned you, and the bantracker never shows such an action, i have good reason to believe your memory may be faulty.
[21:04] <Flannel> LimCore: We've covered this.  You were unbanned on purpose (in November), and then banned again on purpose on the 21st.  At this point, I can't tell you why you were banned on the 21st.
[21:04] <LimCore> mneptok: you are some high rank admin or something right? do you mind me asking you again, should it be any grounds for ban in #ubuntu what given user personally thinks, or says OUTSIDE of #ubuntu* in relation to ubuntu? Yes, this is question about freedom of speach vs ubuntu IRC rules
[21:04] <Flannel> mneptok: Just drop it
[21:05] <mneptok> LimCore: i have no "rank" greater than any other ops'.
[21:05] <LimCore> mneptok: yes it was my mistake, sorry about saying that previously
[21:05] <mneptok> LimCore: as Flannel says, you need to talk to ikonia
[21:05] <LimCore> ok I will
[21:07] <Flannel> LimCore: If there's nothing else we can help you with, please part so we can perform business in this channel more effectively.  I'll make sure ikonia follows up, and you'll be kept in the loop.
[21:07] <LimCore> but since I did not did almost absolutelly nothing in #ubuntu , it could mean that after all actions outside #ubuntu lead to this; In such a case, this is quite dissapointing in relation to freedom of speach imho
[21:07] <jpds> wut.
[21:09] <Flannel> I'll take this opportunity to remind everyone to comment on your bans when they're not blatantly obvious (from the log with the ban in the BT)!
[21:25] <nalioth> i would like to take this opportunity to remind folks that bans are not "fire and forget", and that most bans shouldn't last more than 24h
[21:52] <ardchoille> there's a user in #ubunt by the nick of DrManhattan that is asking how to get unbanned in #ubuntu. I referred him here but it doesn't look like he's interested
[21:53] <ardchoille> I warned him about ban evasion also
[21:54] <Myrtti> Im on my mobile so my hands are tied due to technical restrictions
[21:56] <DrManhattan> so how long do bans usually last in #ubuntu?
[21:56] <DrManhattan> for using the evil f word
[21:57] <jpds> It seems you've dealt with MenZa and bazhang in the past.
[21:57] <jpds> You'll have to ask them.
[21:58] <DrManhattan> i guess i'll have to find out. Thanks.
[21:59] <jpds> ...