[03:14] <Ahmuck> is there an ical version of edubuntu meetings, events, etc?
[03:16] <Ahmuck> btw, i was looking at webdev this aftenoon.  sunbird has the option of caldev or ical.  looking at wikipedia, ical is a subset or a way to code info from caldev.  how do the tow interact?
[03:17] <Ahmuck> did edubuntu have a meeting today. looking at the fridge, i don't see a listing
[04:12] <sbalneav> Ahmuck:
[04:12] <sbalneav> yes
[05:14] <sbalneav> Well, I found where it's dying in gksu anyway.
[05:24] <sbalneav> yeesh, code's crap, they're doing fgets without checking result codes.
[05:30] <alkisg> That's about gksu? Geez, you should write your own OS while you're fixing things... :)
[05:30] <sbalneav> well, it's the fact that something's giving an error code that's causing the proble.
[05:31] <sbalneav> but gksu blindly barrels ahead.
[05:31] <sbalneav> I think I can fix it by providing a configure option, force it to fork a pty
[05:31] <sbalneav> building another package now.
[05:31] <alkisg> Good morning btw. I got a question about bug handling. Suppose we want to fix this simple bug: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdeedu/+bug/315909
[05:32] <alkisg> That's clearly an upstream bug, but upstream doesn't know about it: https://bugs.kde.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=kturtle
[05:32] <alkisg> So what do we do? We just forward it upstream? We file a bug in kde edu and include a patch?
[05:33] <sbalneav> Well, canonical's supposed to be forwarding patches upstream, however I've heard a lot of upstream devs complaining there's nothing flowing to them.
[05:33] <sbalneav> I'd say, lets come up with a patch for the bug, and make sure we forward it upstream manually.
[05:33] <sbalneav> that way we know they got it.
[05:34] <alkisg> OK, so for each bug that is clearly an upstream bug, we come up with a patch, and manually file a bug upstream. Got it. :)
[05:35] <sbalneav> Well, that's what I do, unless the bug's in an ubuntu applied patch.
[05:44] <sbalneav> YEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
[05:45] <sbalneav> \o/
[05:49] <sbalneav> stgraber: you still awake at this ungodly hour?
[05:49] <sbalneav> So, here's what's wrong with gksu
[05:50] <sbalneav> Looks like there's been some change in sudo, or something, anyway, sudo's looking for an actual tty now for passwd input
[05:50] <sbalneav> so
[05:50] <sbalneav> libgksu needs to be compiled with
[05:50] <sbalneav> --enable-sudo-forkpty
[06:37] <stgraber> sbalneav: yep
[06:37] <stgraber> interesting
[06:38] <stgraber> sbalneav: did you do a test build of it ?
[06:39] <stgraber> sbalneav: would be interesting to have it in your PPA, then poke Michael Vogt (mvo) to see if he's anything against that change (as in, potential regression)
[06:39] <stgraber> and if not, we'll just change it ;)
[06:39]  * stgraber looks at Debian to see if they made the change, if yes, then it's a simple packaging change merge ;)
[06:41] <stgraber> hmm, nope, Debian has the same ...
[06:43] <stgraber> oh, actually it seems like this used to exist as a patch in previous versions
[06:43] <stgraber> then was made upstream but the flag hasn't been added to the configure
[06:44] <stgraber> sbalneav: can you file a bug on LP about it and give me the bug number ? I'll see tomorrow if I feel like doing the change or I'll poke someone in the desktop team.
[06:44] <stgraber> it's a bit late here to break libgksu :)
[09:06]  * ogra_ yawns
[09:25]  * alkisg hands a cup of coffee to ogra
[09:28] <ogra_> :)
[09:43]  * alkisg wonders why "Try Edubuntu without any change to your computer" in the edubuntu installer is untraslated in *all* languages, while on launchpad it's translated...
[09:43] <ogra_> talk to cjwatson, i guess he hasnt imported the translations into debian-installer
[09:44] <alkisg> danke!
[10:14] <alkisg> Is there any way to install edubuntu, and then switch to all the regular ubuntu themes, layouts, icons etc?
[13:44] <sbalneav> stgraber: libgksu IS broken NOW compared to it's previous defaults
[13:44] <sbalneav> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libgksu/+bug/501559
[13:50]  * highvoltage drinks an energy tablet
[13:50] <highvoltage> good morning everyone
[13:50] <highvoltage> or good afternoon if you're in my timezone :)
[14:05] <alkisg> Good afternoon :)
[14:06] <alkisg> Is there any way to install edubuntu, and then switch to all the regular ubuntu themes, layouts, icons etc?
[14:09] <toogreen> alkisg, i did it by removing a few packages like edubuntu-artwork, if i remember well
[14:10] <toogreen> and then for the icon themes and stuff u can simply change it in the preferences/themes
[14:10] <alkisg> That's a per user change, how do I change the system defaults for that?
[14:10] <alkisg> I tried update-alternatives --all but that didn't quite do it...
[14:11] <highvoltage> heh
[14:11] <toogreen> alkisg, hmm i guess by removing the themes packages, not sure tho :-/ im just a regular joe user hehe
[14:11] <alkisg> toogreen: heh, sure, thanks for the advice
[14:11] <highvoltage> alkisg: removing the theme packages should really do the trick
[14:12] <toogreen> i came here to ask for help too actually
[14:12] <alkisg> highvoltage: I'll try it again, I had some problems with the logging off/on with the daily live :)
[14:12] <alkisg> toogreen: sure, shoot!
[14:13] <toogreen> was just wondering if anyone knows if/when the issue with italc and remote shutdown/rebooting in Karmic will be fixed
[14:13] <alkisg> toogreen: I sent a patch for it, did you try it?
[14:13] <toogreen> hmm I'm not sure how to apply patches :-/
[14:13] <alkisg> (I also have updated packages for it in my ppa)
[14:13] <alkisg> Are you using Karmic?
[14:14] <toogreen> won't it be just released in a normal update?
[14:14] <toogreen> yeah using Karmic
[14:14] <alkisg> Well we'll have to convince stgraber to include it in his italc patches :)
[14:14] <toogreen> I have two Linux labs in my school, one is still Jaunty, the other Karmic
[14:14] <alkisg> ...so the best course there would be to try the patches (=install the debs from my ppa), and confirm that they work
[14:15] <alkisg> Let me get you the links...
[14:15] <toogreen> in the Jaunty lab, I fixed the issue by installing powermanagement package (or something like that)
[14:15] <alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/italc/+bug/367960
[14:15] <toogreen> ok will try the PPA solution, thanks
[14:15] <alkisg> Ah, I see you've commented there
[14:15] <toogreen> yeah I did
[14:16] <alkisg> Do post a reply if you verify that my patches work, it'll help in their inclusion in the ubuntu package
[14:16] <toogreen> I thought the patches were more complicated tho
[14:16] <toogreen> heheh
[14:16] <toogreen> ok cool, will try
[14:16] <toogreen> im at home now tho
[14:16] <toogreen> only start working again on the 4th of Jan
[14:16] <toogreen> will try then
[14:16] <alkisg> What are you using? i386 or amd64?
[14:16] <toogreen> i was just wondering about the status of this bug
[14:16] <toogreen> i386
[14:17] <alkisg> Here are the .debs: https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/proposed/+sourcepub/891138/+listing-archive-extra
[14:17] <alkisg> This way you can download them manually if you don't want to include my ppa in your sources
[14:19] <toogreen> ok that's cool, thanks a lot!!
[14:20] <toogreen> It was rather annoying indeed to turn 30 computers off one by one everyday, heheh :-P
[14:20] <toogreen> I'd say this is a killer feature of italc :-)
[14:20] <toogreen> for lazy ppl like me
[14:20] <alkisg> Sure I used that too, a lot
[14:21] <alkisg> My main problem with iTalc is that on my last lab it crashed after just a few seconds of broadcasting :(
[14:21] <toogreen> alkisg r u working in a school too?
[14:21] <alkisg> In 3 other labs it was working fine, though...
[14:22] <alkisg> Yup, I'm mostly a teacher
[14:22] <toogreen> i have many issues with iTalc actually... I don't rely on it too much for demonstrating.. I use the projector/screen combo instead
[14:22]  * alkisg wishes he had a projector :(
[14:22] <toogreen> it was too unstable in my case
[14:22] <toogreen> i think the network is too slow or something
[14:22] <alkisg> Do you have a full gigabit network?
[14:22] <toogreen> I use iTalc mainly to send messages, take control, or lock the screen
[14:23] <toogreen> I'm not sure actually, think so but the network setup is pretty messy in our school
[14:23] <alkisg> Nah, it's not the network that's slow. VNC is the main problem, and iTalc makes it worse.. E.g. freenx works just fine.
[14:23] <toogreen> i mainly teach, there are other ppl in charge of network etc
[14:24] <toogreen> ok
[14:24] <alkisg> Ah. I gotta do it all myself, no other tech persons around :)
[14:24] <toogreen> where are you at? China here
[14:25] <toogreen> I'm Canadian tho, but working/teaching in China
[14:25] <alkisg> Greece...
[14:25] <toogreen> ok
[14:25] <toogreen> Just wondering, how widely spread Ubuntu is in schools over there?
[14:26] <alkisg> It's not widespread yet. We're working on it :)
[14:26] <toogreen> Yeah same here. In Shanghai as far as I know I'm one of the rare ones pushing Ubuntu/FOSS
[14:26] <toogreen> Everywhere else is pirate Windows XP
[14:27] <toogreen> and piracy is so widely common and accepted
[14:27] <alkisg> Yeah same here...
[14:27] <toogreen> it's hard to teach ppl and convince them to use FOSS...
[14:27] <alkisg> But, 2 years ago a pilot program was started by the greek ministry of education. About 20 labs started using Ubuntu/LTSP, bug most of them abandoned it before the year was over.
[14:27] <highvoltage> toogreen: aparently very few people run legal copies of anything there
[14:27] <toogreen> highvoltage, true... which is a shame and im trying to educate ppl around me, at least
[14:28] <highvoltage> toogreen: great
[14:28] <alkisg> A few of us straggled to make it work like we wanted it, we wrote some manuals and scripts for customization, and now the user base is constantly increasing
[14:29] <toogreen> highvoltage, one thing that saddens me a great deals is computer dealers all around, they do have systems that are windows-less... Like Dell machines for instances, but they put Windows XP pirate on them even before ppl buy them!!
[14:29] <toogreen> so when you go shopping for computers in Shanghai, all computers without OS are already running Windows XP
[14:30] <toogreen> except few exceptions but its mainly that
[14:31] <toogreen> At the very beginning of EeePCs it was interesting, they left the original Xandros there... But talking to the salesmen they told me everybody was asking to replace it with WinXP
[14:31] <toogreen> So they started just installing XP on demonstrators as well and completely disregarding Linux
[14:32] <toogreen> anyways, its pretty sad
[14:32] <toogreen> Even people who buy Macs in Shanghai, most of them ask the sales ppl if they can wipe out Mac OS and put XP instead!!
[14:32] <toogreen> Not sure why Chinese ppl like XP so much.. heheh
[14:33] <alkisg> toogreen: here's a good link against piracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponosov%27s_case
[14:34] <alkisg> That teacher was convicted because he bought PCs with pirated windows on them
[14:34] <alkisg> Since then he became a FLOSS advocate, and now Russia moved on to using open source...
[14:36] <toogreen> alkisg, thanks for the link, I sure will show this to some people I know!!!
[14:37] <toogreen> printing it out now...
[14:40] <sbalneav> alkisg: Why Sabayon would help you with your theming woes!
[14:41] <sbalneav> Morning all
[14:41] <sbalneav> reading scrollback
[14:41] <alkisg> sbalneav: really? hmmm I hear that it has some severe gksu-related bugs, though... :P :D
[14:43] <sbalneav> <rage on>
[14:43] <sbalneav> WHRAAAAAAAAAA HULK SMASH
[14:43] <sbalneav> </rage off>
[14:43] <highvoltage> heh nice one alkisg
[14:44] <sbalneav> Fixed.  Now I just have to convince someone with upload rights that fixing is isn't "breaking it this late in the cycle"
[14:44] <alkisg> Late?! Only an alpha was out...
[14:44] <sbalneav> even tho' it's demonstrably broken now, and by fixing it, I restore previous functionality.
[14:44] <sbalneav> See stgraber's comment above :)
[14:48] <alkisg> sbalneav: if you're talking about "it's a bit late here to break libgksu :)", I think stgraber meant that it was late in the day, i.e. midnight...
[14:49] <sbalneav> Ah, I assumed that meant "in the development cycle" :)
[14:50] <sbalneav> Anywho, hopefully I can convince someone (shouldn't necessarily be stgraber, btw.) that this is important.
[14:58] <highvoltage> sbalneav: shouldn't take much
[15:03] <sbalneav> Heh, only had one bite so far, and he wanted me to justify why upstream had made the change in the first place. :)
[15:04]  * sbalneav put on his Johnny Carson "Carnac the Magnificent" heagear, holds libgksu2-0 source to forhead
[15:05] <sbalneav> Wait, how many people here get that?
[15:05] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I get this for cnetworkmanager on my host: http://paste.ubuntu.com/349113/
[15:05] <highvoltage> sbalneav: know what could be causing that?
[15:06] <highvoltage> sbalneav: it sounds like something north-americanish :)
[15:07] <sbalneav> That from my packages?
[15:07] <highvoltage> yep
[15:07] <sbalneav> one sec
[15:13] <sbalneav> How'd you get the error?
[15:13] <sbalneav> try a cnetworkmanager -d
[15:16] <highvoltage> still says the same
[15:17] <sbalneav> You install it on a karmic box?
[15:17] <sbalneav> I just installed it here on my karmic box, works fine.
[15:19] <highvoltage> sbalneav: yep
[15:19] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I'll look at it again a bit later and let you know if I get it running
[15:19] <sbalneav> well, the error indicates that something's not right with dbus
[15:21] <sbalneav> ls -l /etc/dbus-1/system.d/cnetworkmanager.conf
[15:21] <sbalneav> wait:
[15:21] <sbalneav> dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.NetworkManager was not provided by any .service files
[15:21] <|user|> hello
[15:21] <sbalneav> Did you uninstall networkmanager?
[15:21] <sbalneav> |user|: hello
[15:22] <|user|> i have edubuntu on my asus eee900ha
[15:22] <|user|> my wireles wont work
[15:22] <highvoltage> sbalneav: nope, should I?
[15:22] <highvoltage> sbalneav: well, I installed networkmanager just shortly before
[15:23] <highvoltage> sbalneav: ah, after a reboot it magically works
[15:23] <sbalneav> highvoltage: well, restarting the system might help
[15:23] <sbalneav> I suspect network manager isn't properly runnig yet
[15:24] <sbalneav> |user|: What kind of wireless is in that machine?  I'm not familiar with that hardware
[15:24] <highvoltage> |user|: edubuntu 9.10?
[15:25] <|user|> yes
[15:25] <|user|> i dont know why
[15:26] <|user|> i installed kde
[15:26] <|user|> too
[15:28] <highvoltage> "anomalies" nice.
[15:28] <sbalneav> highvoltage: The error basically means that cnetworkmanager tried to talk to NetworkMangler, but there wasn't one registered with dbus.
[15:29] <sbalneav> How the heck did you NOT have networkmanager installed on Ubuntu? it's like freaking default for everything now.
[15:30] <highvoltage> sbalneav: this machine doesn't have an X server installed
[15:30] <highvoltage> sbalneav: it's a small server machine that I want to put on wi-fi
[15:37] <sbalneav> Well, you'll need networkmanager running properly in order to get cnetworkmanager to work.
[16:22] <sbalneav> alkisg: And here we have the primary problem with Ubuntu.
[16:23] <sbalneav> "What you want to do isn't right, but I don't have time to research how to fix the problem, or give you any suggestions on how to fix it, so things should just stay broken"
[16:24] <alkisg> Right, I hate this kind of talk :(
[16:26] <sbalneav> I mean, I'd be more than happy to start identifying SDL applications, and filing bugs to make them dep on -pulseaudio
[16:28] <sbalneav> And now, he's ignoring us.
[16:29] <alkisg> sbalneav: I tried that for 2-3 apps, no sugar
[16:29] <alkisg> ...and I don't think it's a good solution either
[16:30] <alkisg> Maybe a better solution would be on a higher level. E.g. Ubuntu wants pulse? Maybe ubuntu-desktop should depend on libsdl-pulse, and kubuntu on libsdl-alsa...
[16:30] <sbalneav> Maybe not, but it's better than "doing nothing"
[16:30] <sbalneav> That's an idea
[16:30] <sbalneav> Why not suggest that.
[16:31] <alkisg> It needs searching to support this idea... maybe ubuntu-desktop is not the proper package, but some other one, lower on the hierarchy
[16:31] <alkisg> Bah let's mention it, nothing to lose
[16:31] <sbalneav> I don't understand why it's not a dep for pulse, personally
[16:32] <sbalneav> Really, what you need is conditional deps :)
[16:33] <alkisg> Right, and a better conffile system ;)
[16:34] <sbalneav> Could you write that for us?
[16:34] <sbalneav> I like your dummy packages idea.
[16:34] <sbalneav> that wouldn't be that hard.
[16:37] <alkisg> Sure I could write that. That's the easy part.
[16:38] <alkisg> The question is, who'd want that? :D
[16:38] <alkisg> I don't think anyone's listening... ;)
[16:38] <highvoltage> dummy packages?
[16:39] <alkisg> highvoltage: packaging problem. libsdl1.2debian depends on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio |  libsdl1.2debian-all | libsdl1.2debian-alsa | libsdl1.2debian-esd | libsdl1.2debian-oss | libsdl1.2debian-nas
[16:39] <alkisg> Ah sorry
[16:39] <alkisg> alsa in front
[16:39] <alkisg> So it breaks the sound (or even worse) in all packages that use SDL on Ubuntu
[16:39] <alkisg> e.g. one of the many, many bug reports about this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libsdl1.2/+bug/203158
[16:40] <alkisg> So we're trying to propose a good way for libsdl to depend on pulse on ubuntu, but on alsa on kubuntu (as kubuntu doesn't use pulse by default)
[16:42] <sbalneav> I kind of like how we're willing to accept broken behaviour in the primary product, to make sure things work perfectly in the secondary product.
[16:42] <sbalneav> And here's where it will stall.
[16:43]  * alkisg guesses either ScottK uses Kubuntu, or he doesn't use any SDL based apps at all :D
[16:44] <sbalneav> If it wasn't for having good guys like ogra and stgraber around to champion issue for us, I'd have given up on ubuntu long ago
[16:44]  * sbalneav hugs ogra, stgraber
[16:45] <sbalneav> Well, yeah, none of the main ubuntu apps are sdl I think
[16:47] <sbalneav> They all universe packages?
[16:47] <alkisg> !info tuxpaint
[16:48] <alkisg> Nope
[16:48] <sbalneav> perfect.
[16:48] <sbalneav> LOL
[16:49] <alkisg> Maybe we should start a riot outside of Mark's office :P
[16:50] <sbalneav> I already managed to affect some stuff
[16:50] <alkisg> !info gstreamer0.10-sdl
[16:50] <sbalneav> I complained to Jorge Castro about bug handling.
[16:51] <sbalneav> He's apparently got a "team" that's going to be scouring lunchpad for bugs filed that actally have patches attached
[16:51] <alkisg> Yey!
[16:51] <sbalneav> apparently, they've got in excess of 1600 bugs that have patches attached, that no-ones looking at.
[16:51] <alkisg> That'd solve *a lot* of problems...
[16:53] <sbalneav> I got that ball rolling when I whined and stamped my feet about the cups bug for hardy
[16:54] <sbalneav> which, BTW, still hasn't been fixed :)
[16:54]  * alkisg shrugs :(
[16:54] <alkisg> !info libsdl1.2debian
[16:55] <sbalneav> I know it sounds like I've been a whiny little primadonna the last few weeks, but goldarnit, we're not going to get these issues fixed unless we make some noise about them.
[17:14] <alkisg> ...and thus, the libsdl bug is again shoved...
[17:17] <sbalneav> I'd cut-n-paste the convo into the bug
[17:18] <sbalneav> I know, it's frustrating isn't it?  Bottom line is, base ubuntu doesn't rely on any sdl apps, so....
[17:18] <alkisg> But it does. libsdl is installed by default in the live cd.
[17:19] <sbalneav> Right, but not the right one.
[17:19] <alkisg> Yes, so if we put the correct one in the dependencies of ubuntu-desktop, it'll be fixed.
[17:19] <sbalneav> but none of the default ubuntu apps that I know of are sdl
[17:19] <alkisg> Where's the problem in that?
[17:19] <sbalneav> You're preaching to the choir Brother Alkis!  :)
[17:19]  * alkisg will try to see *how* libsdl gets in the live cd...
[17:20] <sbalneav> Amen, Glory Halleluia!
[17:20] <sbalneav> I don't see a problem with it AT ALL.
[17:41] <sbalneav> ah, right, we're dropping gimp too.
[17:41] <sbalneav> Race to the bottom.
[17:42] <alkisg> I think we need to fix all those broken dependencies in edubuntu, and just ignore everything ubuntu does :P :D
[17:43] <sbalneav> I'm all for that, although I don't no how we'd do it.
[17:43] <sbalneav> We'd need our own complete apt archive.
[17:44] <alkisg> Nope. We'd just make edubuntu-desktop depend on libsdl-pulse ;)
[17:44] <alkisg> (we ship gimp anyways :D)
[17:46] <sbalneav> Ah, well, yeah, WE can do that for edubuntu-desktop, for sure.
[18:19] <alkisg> Nailed it. :D
[18:19] <alkisg> A conflicts: libsdl-alsa on the pulseaudio package should be a nice fix. Testing...
[18:51] <sbalneav> DID SOMETHING GET COMMITTED?!?!!
[18:51]  * sbalneav 's jaw drops in amazement
[18:51] <sbalneav> \o/ for alkisg
[18:56] <alkisg> Hey wait who said anything about commits?
[18:57] <alkisg> I just had an idea which seems acceptable to them, and I'll test it, and then they'll think about commiting it... :D
[18:58] <sbalneav> ah, jumped the gun :)
[18:58]  * alkisg uploaded a fixed pulseaudio package to his ppa, and downloaded the lucid daily cd. Hopefully now libsdl-pulse will be installed when I install tuxpaint.. fingers crossed..
[18:58] <sbalneav> here's hoping
[19:15]  * sbalneav waits with bated breath.
[19:15] <sbalneav> Man, I should quit eating fish for lunch.
[19:26] <Lns> nice guys =) That's been a sore for some time (libsdl-alsa screwing w/tux4kids apps)
[19:41] <sbalneav> All your thanks goes to alkisg, he's driving that particular bus.
[19:41] <sbalneav> And quite expertly too.
[19:49]  * alkisg loves launchpad... "starts in 20 minutes... 10... 5... 3.. 2.. 1.. 5... 10... 20..." :(
[22:06] <Ahmuck> alkisg: u fixed pulseaudio?
[22:06] <alkisg> Ahmuck: nope, not at all
[23:15] <alkisg> !info  libsdl1.2debian-alsa
[23:15] <alkisg> !info libsdl1.2debian-alsa
[23:15] <alkisg> !info libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio