shtylmantxwikinger: indeed...same here00:10
txwikingerWell NY is in the same timezone as we are ;)00:10
* ScottK-desktop waves from the live session (what may be the last Kubuntu Dapper desktop is being replaced).02:46
Daskreechnixternal: Saw the new job opening for linux expertise?02:47
DaskreechScottK-desktop: I have a dapper Desktop installation02:48
ScottK-desktopDaskreech: It's about time to upgrade.02:48
DaskreechThe computer can't run anything more advanced02:48
DaskreechTried. Eventually went back to dapper02:48
* ScottK-desktop has a server box that can't run past Hardy, but never heard of can't run past Dapper.02:48
DaskreechThis is where you repeat >Daskreech: It's about time to upgrade.02:49
ScottK-desktopNah, I believe you.02:49
ScottK-desktopBTW, there are unfixed security vulnerabilities in the Dapper KDE.02:49
DaskreechScottK-desktop: I meant in terms of Hardware not software now :)02:49
ScottK-desktopWhat's the issue that keeps it from running anything newer?02:50
=== foxhoun_ is now known as foxhoun
Daskreechnixternal: http://www.itrunsonlinux.com/news/150-microsoft-wants-to-hire-an-anti-linux-guru02:51
ScottK-desktopIIRC he used to work for them, so perfect.02:53
ScottK-desktopTime to reboot.  BBL.02:57
ScottKSort of works ....03:18
ScottKBetter with the downgraded Intel drivers ....03:24
ScottKHappy New Year.05:08
=== hunger_t is now known as hunger
jussi01anyone awake?10:45
Tm_Tbeen since, err, 0720 or so10:45
jussi01Tm_T: hai!10:45
Tm_To kala!10:46
jussi01Tm_T: but you are mad, so you dont count :D10:46
* jussi01 has had an idea for a cool application installer - similar to software center, but mainly for kde apps. sort of a kdecentric, recommended apps type thing.10:47
Tm_T"Kubuntu crew recommends for: Music -> latest Amarok"10:52
Tm_Tjussi01: you mean something taskcentric selection tool for preselected "best for purpose" app10:53
jussi01Tm_T: not really10:54
Tm_Toh, roger10:54
jussi01Im more thinking of something like the osftware store center thingy on ubuntu10:54
Tm_Taah, haven't seen it, have to try10:54
jussi01Tm_T: I dunno about the new softwore store, but they used to have some sort of Add/remove programs thing, which is what Im talking about10:55
jussi01Tm_T: this has a quick detail of the idea: http://jussi01.com/upload/uploads/20100101-124431-installeridea.odp and this explains the pic: http://jussi01.com/upload/uploads/20100101-125837-installeridea10:59
jussi01Tm_T: this could also be applied to the kmenu, with a shortcut like super + k or something to bring it up.11:00
jussi01Tm_T: view it as a slide show, cause its got on click appearances to give an idea11:01
jussi01but please note, its _very_ quickly done11:01
* jussi01 prods at Tm_T11:04
Tm_Tinstead of "traditional list" we would have something more visual, hmmmm, I wonder if there's been usability studies regarding to this kind of things11:07
* jussi01 wonders if seele is around :D11:07
Tm_Tlists are indeed often not that good for inexpierenced users11:08
jussi01Tm_T: the other idea I had that would be cool, is to make it an option to be a 3d plugin for kwin, kind of similar to one of the alt tab animations we have at the moment. but thats kind of secondary11:10
slacker_nlhi, you guys know if any issues have been reported about losing your keyboard after you login to KDE?12:03
jussi01slacker_nl: I had that happen once, but not again so i didnt report it12:06
slacker_nljussi01: i have it both on debian unstable and lucid12:08
slacker_nlI can login and then only nothingness from my kb12:08
jussi01slacker_nl: curious12:09
slacker_nljussi01: i just started fvwm on my debian box12:23
slacker_nland there i have a keyboard12:23
slacker_nlthink it is related to kde12:23
slacker_nli do have this in my .xsession-error log: http://pb.opperschaap.net/13812:23
seelejussi01: i am now15:37
jussi01seele: could you give some feedback on my idea?15:38
jussi01<jussi01> Tm_T: this has a quick detail of the idea: http://jussi01.com/upload/uploads/20100101-124431-installeridea.odp and this explains the pic: http://jussi01.com/upload/uploads/20100101-125837-installeridea15:39
jussi01seele: it could also be used for a kmenu style thing15:40
seelethe problem is you rely on the icons too much15:41
seelethere are no labels, and browsing on hover isn't a very good method15:41
jussi01seele: ok, apart from that? (can be fixed)15:41
seelesince you are using space, it is limited in size/number15:42
seelethe layout is also hard to browse because it doesnt folow a grid, your eyes have to track all over the place. if there is some order to the elements, ti would be hard to figure out15:42
seelee.g. if you were looking for something particular, you'd have to look at pretty much everything, instead of going directly to the correct place in an organized list15:43
jussi01Ok, hrm...15:43
seelei know it looks cool but it's hard to use ;)15:44
jussi01What if they wer a-z around the circle?15:44
seelehow does that effect the second layer in the middle?15:44
jussi01it doesnt15:44
seeleoh those are categories, right15:44
seeleyeah, you could label them, but i dont think it helps the problem much15:45
seelethe problem with a-z labeling is that you dont have all letters so you either skip letters or have spaces15:45
seeleor you might have  a lot of one letter which skews the list15:45
seelee.g. 25% are all M's or something15:45
jussi01seele: after having the idea i did also come across somehting similar: http://code.google.com/p/circular-application-menu/15:45
seelewell that's a little different15:46
jussi01seele: no, I dont mean label, but just have them ordered in a-z, say clockwise, so when you go to look, if you know the name, then you can easily find, cause its a-z15:46
jussi01Maybe a search option is a good dea laso...15:47
seelewith your menu, the items are unknown, the list can be large, and possibly change depending on available software15:47
seelewith those menus they are known/learned, very small lists, and never change15:47
seeleso you can learn the position, which people are pretty good at doing15:47
seelebut the key is that it is learned and small and never changes15:47
seelejussi01: i guess, but would you order it clockwise or counterclockwise? start from the top, right, bottom, etc? i dont know what the answer would be. that's not something common in literature :)15:48
jussi01clockwise from top.15:49
jussi01norma righthanded behavior15:49
seelewill that have any internationalization issues? not everyone has the same cultural biases15:49
amichairjussi01: just popped in an saw ur link... I really like the idea! it's not often that we see something really new, and cool, and (to me) it makes sense...15:49
jussi01seele: think about it in the installer idea. you will be looking for something that suits your needs, so say, you want to install firefox, you click web, which is at the "end" of the category circle, hen look through to f, for firefox.15:50
jussi01amichair: feel like coding a mock up?15:50
* jussi01 doesnt have coding skills15:50
amichairjussi01: I dunno about installing software, but for the k-menu this seems like a good alternative - it's a fixed number of itmes, and having them in a row is no better (and less visually appealing) than having them in a circle!15:50
amichairand in k-menu context, as seelse mentioned, it's the case that ppl get used to it, do the hover-around once to discover things (just as they would going over categories of a menu), and learn the icons pretty quick for stuff they need15:51
seelejussi01: and what if you were looking for dvd buring software and didnt know the name of the application?15:51
jussi01amichair: if it was for the kmenu, then it would be cool to just have it appear on a shortcut key, and go away after selection,15:51
seelethat is a pretty common case especially with new kde users because no one knows the names of software15:52
jussi01seele: then you would browse the multimedia section15:52
seeleand have to scan the descriptions of each appliaction in a shape?15:52
jussi01seele: because this is selected software only (as with add/remove) in gnome, there isnt toom uch15:52
jussi01seele: how is it done now?15:53
amichairseele: good point, but I don't find it much different than having to look through menus for a piece of software which I don't already know... usually icons, if they are good, help15:53
seeleyou can do what you want and it is refreshing to see new ideas.. but circular menus havent taken off for the same reason 3-d interfaces havent. they just dont work on the desktop15:53
seelethere *are* successful applications of circular menus, but not in this environment15:53
amichairjussi01: I have coding skills, but limited time... but I find this interesting - if this goes through, I might be able to give a hand15:54
seeleamichair: physically, doing that on a straight list is much easier than having to navigation with your mouse. there is a lot more attention paid to ergonomics lately because of problems with RSI etc. that's one of the arguments for kde being a single click environment15:54
seelescanning in a grid is easier as well15:54
jussi01Ive got to go clean, GF's brother is coming. thanks for taking the time to talk it through15:55
seeleno problem, sorry for the feedback, i know it wasnt what you wanted to hear :)15:55
jussi01seele: no, I wanted to hear the opinion of a usability expert, regardless of good or bad.15:55
jussi01so thank you.15:55
amichairseele: interesting... is there a good source with a compilation of all them usability-researched guidelines?15:56
slacker_nlwhich config file is responsible for my keyboard settings?15:56
slacker_nlin my .kde dir?15:56
seeleamichair: there are lots of papers on the topic, i have no idea if anyone has done a literature review on the topic15:57
slacker_nlssh papia.opperschaap.net15:57
amichairseele: that's what I was afraied of :-)15:57
amichairjussi01, seele: sorry, gotta run - will be happy to discuss this sometime - I've given thought to all sorts of GUI/usability issues, I find it an interesting and important topic.15:57
amichairI actually tried to catch seele for a chat on the netbook interface a few times when it came out... though I think most of the points I made were indeed fixed by then. some other time then :-)15:58
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
yuriyhappy new year everyone!18:31
hungeryuriy: Thanks! Same to you.18:31
xerxesMe waves19:56
xerxesIs apachelogger about?19:57
ScottKxerxes: IIRC he's taking a little break to avoid incipient burnout.  What's up?19:57
xerxesJust wanted to pass a message along from voroan19:58
ScottKxerxes: Yes, please.19:59
shtylmancontributors be dropping like flies20:18
crimsunthere is little incentive to contribute20:22
crimsuneven when one is employed to work on FOSS, many people choose non-FOSS things during off-the-clock hours20:22
shtylmanI choose FOSS things during off the clock hours :)20:24
shtylmanthe incentives to contribute are self driven20:26
crimsunI'd say those aren't really incentives, which classically are external20:28
crimsunself-worth, pride, etc., not so much20:28
crimsunpeople who tend to tie FOSS into their lifestyles of course find it easier to contribute20:29
crimsungit cherry-pick 0b587fc4d35afb1bc0fc3d890084bb14c78372dc20:38
=== robotgee1 is now known as robotgeek
shtylmanis the sftp protocol no longer valid in dolphin 4.4?21:43
JontheEchidnashtylman: waiting on a security review for libssh, which is a new requirement in 4.421:45
JontheEchidnaso it's only a temporary outage21:46
shtylmanany workaround until then?21:47
JontheEchidnayou can compile kdebase-runtime with libssh installed locally22:16
=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates
shtylmanJontheEchidna: do you happen to know where in the kde source the app is that does the desktop/wallpaper settings?22:19
JontheEchidnaplasma-desktop lives in kdebase-workspace22:20
shtylmanI got that far22:20
shtylmanis the app that handles its settings also there?22:21
JontheEchidnaplasma-desktop handles it itself22:21
shtylmank...lemme see if I can find the .ui files and the code :)22:21
JontheEchidnado you want to edit the wallpaper config interface itself?22:22
JontheEchidnaeach wallpaper plugin provides their own configuration interface for the dialog22:22
shtylmanwallpaper plugin?22:23
shtylmanyea...I wanna take a look at the interface itself22:23
shtylmanthere is a small bug I wanna try to fix22:23
JontheEchidnaok, so there are different wallpaper plugins. The default one is "image"22:23
JontheEchidnain kdeplasma-addons lives some extra ones like marble, virus, weather, etc22:23
JontheEchidnayou'll find the plain image plugin in workspace/plasma/generic/wallpapers/image22:24
shtylmanthank you22:24
JontheEchidnaI'd be interested to hear about the bug too, as I maintain the weather wallpaper plugin which shares a bit of code with the image plugin ;-)22:25
shtylmanits not a major bug or anything22:25
shtylmanbut for some reason the same wallpaper appears twice in the list22:25
shtylmanit happens after I add the wallpaper22:25
shtylmanand then modify the wallpaper22:26
shtylmanand add it again... I think22:26
shtylmanbut basically... I think the list could be smart enough to detect same paths22:26
shtylmanfor the underlying wallpaper22:26
shtylmanand not add it again.. inho22:26
JontheEchidnayeah, you'd want to check the createConfigurationInterface(); in image.cpp, as well as backgroundlistmodel.cpp22:26
shtylmanso I wanna see what code does that22:26
shtylmanis there a good way to test those changes?22:30
shtylmanobviously I compile it22:30
shtylmanbut do I have to restart my whole kde session?22:30
JontheEchidnaplasmawallpaperviewer -p image22:38
shtylmanso I think I know what happens23:00
shtylmanwhen you add a new wallpaper by drag and drop23:00
shtylmanI think it is copied to the .kde/share/wallpapers directory23:00
shtylmanbut when you open it using the "open" button of the dialog it is not23:01
shtylmanso it is basicall possible to have the same wallpaper twice or at least make it look that way23:01
shtylmanor the other way around.... but at some point... a wallpaper got copied to that directory23:03
shtylmanalso... once an image has been dragged and dropped23:05
shtylmanit is not possible to do so again23:05
shtylmaneven if the image has changed23:05
shtylmanit makes a cache of it?23:05
shtylmannvm... maybe it didn't pick up my update time ... cause it worked the second time23:07
shtylmanok...so here is the interesting part23:09
shtylmanwhat happens is this:23:09
shtylmanfrom a folder view... I drag and drop the wallpaper image23:10
shtylmanthis causes it to be copied into .kde/share/wallpaper23:10
shtylmanbut if I drag and drop from dolphin... it does not23:10
shtylmanthat copy causes it to appear multiple times in the list23:13

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