[00:10] <shtylman> txwikinger: indeed...same here
[00:10] <txwikinger> Well NY is in the same timezone as we are ;)
[02:46]  * ScottK-desktop waves from the live session (what may be the last Kubuntu Dapper desktop is being replaced).
[02:47] <Daskreech> nixternal: Saw the new job opening for linux expertise?
[02:48] <Daskreech> ScottK-desktop: I have a dapper Desktop installation
[02:48] <ScottK-desktop> Rats.
[02:48] <ScottK-desktop> Daskreech: It's about time to upgrade.
[02:48] <Daskreech> The computer can't run anything more advanced
[02:48] <ScottK-desktop> Wow.
[02:48] <Daskreech> Tried. Eventually went back to dapper
[02:48]  * ScottK-desktop has a server box that can't run past Hardy, but never heard of can't run past Dapper.
[02:49] <Daskreech> This is where you repeat >	Daskreech: It's about time to upgrade.
[02:49] <ScottK-desktop> Nah, I believe you.
[02:49] <ScottK-desktop> BTW, there are unfixed security vulnerabilities in the Dapper KDE.
[02:49] <Daskreech> ScottK-desktop: I meant in terms of Hardware not software now :)
[02:50] <ScottK-desktop> ;-)
[02:50] <ScottK-desktop> What's the issue that keeps it from running anything newer?
[02:51] <Daskreech> nixternal: http://www.itrunsonlinux.com/news/150-microsoft-wants-to-hire-an-anti-linux-guru
[02:53] <ScottK-desktop> IIRC he used to work for them, so perfect.
[02:57] <ScottK-desktop> Time to reboot.  BBL.
[03:18] <ScottK> Sort of works ....
[03:24] <ScottK> Better with the downgraded Intel drivers ....
[05:08] <ScottK> Happy New Year.
[05:09] <crimsun> ditto
[05:42] <JontheEchidna> \o/
[10:45] <jussi01> anyone awake?
[10:45] <Tm_T> sure
[10:45] <Tm_T> been since, err, 0720 or so
[10:45] <jussi01> Tm_T: hai!
[10:46] <Tm_T> o kala!
[10:46] <jussi01> Tm_T: but you are mad, so you dont count :D
[10:46] <Tm_T> indeed
[10:47]  * jussi01 has had an idea for a cool application installer - similar to software center, but mainly for kde apps. sort of a kdecentric, recommended apps type thing.
[10:52] <Tm_T> "Kubuntu crew recommends for: Music -> latest Amarok"
[10:52] <Tm_T> ?
[10:52] <jussi01> ?
[10:53] <Tm_T> jussi01: you mean something taskcentric selection tool for preselected "best for purpose" app
[10:54] <jussi01> Tm_T: not really
[10:54] <Tm_T> oh, roger
[10:54] <jussi01> Im more thinking of something like the osftware store center thingy on ubuntu
[10:54] <Tm_T> aah, haven't seen it, have to try
[10:55] <jussi01> Tm_T: I dunno about the new softwore store, but they used to have some sort of Add/remove programs thing, which is what Im talking about
[10:59] <jussi01> Tm_T: this has a quick detail of the idea: http://jussi01.com/upload/uploads/20100101-124431-installeridea.odp and this explains the pic: http://jussi01.com/upload/uploads/20100101-125837-installeridea
[11:00] <jussi01> Tm_T: this could also be applied to the kmenu, with a shortcut like super + k or something to bring it up.
[11:01] <jussi01> Tm_T: view it as a slide show, cause its got on click appearances to give an idea
[11:01] <jussi01> but please note, its _very_ quickly done
[11:04]  * jussi01 prods at Tm_T
[11:06] <Tm_T> interesting
[11:07] <Tm_T> instead of "traditional list" we would have something more visual, hmmmm, I wonder if there's been usability studies regarding to this kind of things
[11:07]  * jussi01 wonders if seele is around :D
[11:08] <Tm_T> lists are indeed often not that good for inexpierenced users
[11:10] <jussi01> Tm_T: the other idea I had that would be cool, is to make it an option to be a 3d plugin for kwin, kind of similar to one of the alt tab animations we have at the moment. but thats kind of secondary
[12:03] <slacker_nl> hi, you guys know if any issues have been reported about losing your keyboard after you login to KDE?
[12:06] <jussi01> slacker_nl: I had that happen once, but not again so i didnt report it
[12:08] <slacker_nl> jussi01: i have it both on debian unstable and lucid
[12:08] <slacker_nl> I can login and then only nothingness from my kb
[12:09] <jussi01> slacker_nl: curious
[12:15] <slacker_nl> indeed..
[12:23] <slacker_nl> jussi01: i just started fvwm on my debian box
[12:23] <slacker_nl> and there i have a keyboard
[12:23] <slacker_nl> think it is related to kde
[12:23] <slacker_nl> i do have this in my .xsession-error log: http://pb.opperschaap.net/138
[15:37] <seele> jussi01: i am now
[15:38] <jussi01> seele: could you give some feedback on my idea?
[15:39] <seele> repost?
 Tm_T: this has a quick detail of the idea: http://jussi01.com/upload/uploads/20100101-124431-installeridea.odp and this explains the pic: http://jussi01.com/upload/uploads/20100101-125837-installeridea
[15:40] <jussi01> seele: it could also be used for a kmenu style thing
[15:40] <seele> hmm
[15:41] <seele> the problem is you rely on the icons too much
[15:41] <seele> there are no labels, and browsing on hover isn't a very good method
[15:41] <jussi01> seele: ok, apart from that? (can be fixed)
[15:42] <seele> since you are using space, it is limited in size/number
[15:42] <seele> the layout is also hard to browse because it doesnt folow a grid, your eyes have to track all over the place. if there is some order to the elements, ti would be hard to figure out
[15:43] <seele> e.g. if you were looking for something particular, you'd have to look at pretty much everything, instead of going directly to the correct place in an organized list
[15:43] <jussi01> Ok, hrm...
[15:44] <seele> i know it looks cool but it's hard to use ;)
[15:44] <jussi01> What if they wer a-z around the circle?
[15:44] <seele> how does that effect the second layer in the middle?
[15:44] <jussi01> it doesnt
[15:44] <seele> oh those are categories, right
[15:45] <jussi01> yeah
[15:45] <seele> yeah, you could label them, but i dont think it helps the problem much
[15:45] <seele> the problem with a-z labeling is that you dont have all letters so you either skip letters or have spaces
[15:45] <seele> or you might have  a lot of one letter which skews the list
[15:45] <seele> e.g. 25% are all M's or something
[15:45] <jussi01> seele: after having the idea i did also come across somehting similar: http://code.google.com/p/circular-application-menu/
[15:46] <seele> well that's a little different
[15:46] <jussi01> seele: no, I dont mean label, but just have them ordered in a-z, say clockwise, so when you go to look, if you know the name, then you can easily find, cause its a-z
[15:47] <jussi01> Maybe a search option is a good dea laso...
[15:47] <seele> with your menu, the items are unknown, the list can be large, and possibly change depending on available software
[15:47] <seele> with those menus they are known/learned, very small lists, and never change
[15:47] <seele> so you can learn the position, which people are pretty good at doing
[15:47] <seele> but the key is that it is learned and small and never changes
[15:48] <seele> jussi01: i guess, but would you order it clockwise or counterclockwise? start from the top, right, bottom, etc? i dont know what the answer would be. that's not something common in literature :)
[15:49] <jussi01> clockwise from top.
[15:49] <jussi01> norma righthanded behavior
[15:49] <seele> will that have any internationalization issues? not everyone has the same cultural biases
[15:49] <amichair> jussi01: just popped in an saw ur link... I really like the idea! it's not often that we see something really new, and cool, and (to me) it makes sense...
[15:50] <jussi01> seele: think about it in the installer idea. you will be looking for something that suits your needs, so say, you want to install firefox, you click web, which is at the "end" of the category circle, hen look through to f, for firefox.
[15:50] <jussi01> amichair: feel like coding a mock up?
[15:50] <jussi01> :D
[15:50]  * jussi01 doesnt have coding skills
[15:50] <amichair> jussi01: I dunno about installing software, but for the k-menu this seems like a good alternative - it's a fixed number of itmes, and having them in a row is no better (and less visually appealing) than having them in a circle!
[15:51] <amichair> and in k-menu context, as seelse mentioned, it's the case that ppl get used to it, do the hover-around once to discover things (just as they would going over categories of a menu), and learn the icons pretty quick for stuff they need
[15:51] <seele> jussi01: and what if you were looking for dvd buring software and didnt know the name of the application?
[15:51] <jussi01> amichair: if it was for the kmenu, then it would be cool to just have it appear on a shortcut key, and go away after selection,
[15:52] <seele> that is a pretty common case especially with new kde users because no one knows the names of software
[15:52] <jussi01> seele: then you would browse the multimedia section
[15:52] <seele> and have to scan the descriptions of each appliaction in a shape?
[15:52] <jussi01> seele: because this is selected software only (as with add/remove) in gnome, there isnt toom uch
[15:53] <jussi01> seele: how is it done now?
[15:53] <amichair> seele: good point, but I don't find it much different than having to look through menus for a piece of software which I don't already know... usually icons, if they are good, help
[15:53] <seele> you can do what you want and it is refreshing to see new ideas.. but circular menus havent taken off for the same reason 3-d interfaces havent. they just dont work on the desktop
[15:53] <seele> there *are* successful applications of circular menus, but not in this environment
[15:54] <amichair> jussi01: I have coding skills, but limited time... but I find this interesting - if this goes through, I might be able to give a hand
[15:54] <seele> amichair: physically, doing that on a straight list is much easier than having to navigation with your mouse. there is a lot more attention paid to ergonomics lately because of problems with RSI etc. that's one of the arguments for kde being a single click environment
[15:54] <seele> scanning in a grid is easier as well
[15:55] <jussi01> Ive got to go clean, GF's brother is coming. thanks for taking the time to talk it through
[15:55] <seele> no problem, sorry for the feedback, i know it wasnt what you wanted to hear :)
[15:55] <jussi01> seele: no, I wanted to hear the opinion of a usability expert, regardless of good or bad.
[15:55] <jussi01> so thank you.
[15:56] <amichair> seele: interesting... is there a good source with a compilation of all them usability-researched guidelines?
[15:56] <slacker_nl> which config file is responsible for my keyboard settings?
[15:56] <slacker_nl> in my .kde dir?
[15:57] <seele> amichair: there are lots of papers on the topic, i have no idea if anyone has done a literature review on the topic
[15:57] <slacker_nl> ssh papia.opperschaap.net
[15:57] <amichair> seele: that's what I was afraied of :-)
[15:57] <slacker_nl> oops
[15:57] <amichair> jussi01, seele: sorry, gotta run - will be happy to discuss this sometime - I've given thought to all sorts of GUI/usability issues, I find it an interesting and important topic.
[15:58] <amichair> I actually tried to catch seele for a chat on the netbook interface a few times when it came out... though I think most of the points I made were indeed fixed by then. some other time then :-)
[18:31] <yuriy> happy new year everyone!
[18:31] <hunger> yuriy: Thanks! Same to you.
[19:56] <xerxes> Me waves
[19:57] <xerxes> Is apachelogger about?
[19:57] <ScottK> xerxes: IIRC he's taking a little break to avoid incipient burnout.  What's up?
[19:57] <xerxes> Nope
[19:58] <xerxes> Just wanted to pass a message along from voroan
[19:58] <xerxes> Youight
[19:58] <xerxes> You
[19:59] <ScottK> xerxes: Yes, please.
[20:18] <shtylman> contributors be dropping like flies
[20:22] <crimsun> there is little incentive to contribute
[20:22] <crimsun> even when one is employed to work on FOSS, many people choose non-FOSS things during off-the-clock hours
[20:24] <shtylman> I choose FOSS things during off the clock hours :)
[20:26] <shtylman> the incentives to contribute are self driven
[20:28] <crimsun> I'd say those aren't really incentives, which classically are external
[20:28] <crimsun> self-worth, pride, etc., not so much
[20:29] <crimsun> people who tend to tie FOSS into their lifestyles of course find it easier to contribute
[20:32] <shtylman> right
[20:38] <crimsun> git cherry-pick 0b587fc4d35afb1bc0fc3d890084bb14c78372dc
[20:38] <crimsun> bah
[21:43] <shtylman> is the sftp protocol no longer valid in dolphin 4.4?
[21:45] <JontheEchidna> shtylman: waiting on a security review for libssh, which is a new requirement in 4.4
[21:46] <JontheEchidna> so it's only a temporary outage
[21:47] <shtylman> ahhh
[21:47] <shtylman> any workaround until then?
[22:16] <JontheEchidna> you can compile kdebase-runtime with libssh installed locally
[22:19] <shtylman> noted
[22:19] <shtylman> JontheEchidna: do you happen to know where in the kde source the app is that does the desktop/wallpaper settings?
[22:20] <JontheEchidna> plasma-desktop lives in kdebase-workspace
[22:20] <shtylman> I got that far
[22:21] <shtylman> is the app that handles its settings also there?
[22:21] <JontheEchidna> plasma-desktop handles it itself
[22:21] <shtylman> gotcha
[22:21] <shtylman> k...lemme see if I can find the .ui files and the code :)
[22:22] <JontheEchidna> do you want to edit the wallpaper config interface itself?
[22:22] <JontheEchidna> each wallpaper plugin provides their own configuration interface for the dialog
[22:23] <shtylman> wallpaper plugin?
[22:23] <shtylman> yea...I wanna take a look at the interface itself
[22:23] <shtylman> there is a small bug I wanna try to fix
[22:23] <JontheEchidna> ok, so there are different wallpaper plugins. The default one is "image"
[22:23] <JontheEchidna> in kdeplasma-addons lives some extra ones like marble, virus, weather, etc
[22:24] <JontheEchidna> you'll find the plain image plugin in workspace/plasma/generic/wallpapers/image
[22:24] <shtylman> ooo
[22:24] <shtylman> thank you
[22:25] <JontheEchidna> I'd be interested to hear about the bug too, as I maintain the weather wallpaper plugin which shares a bit of code with the image plugin ;-)
[22:25] <shtylman> k
[22:25] <shtylman> its not a major bug or anything
[22:25] <shtylman> but for some reason the same wallpaper appears twice in the list
[22:25] <shtylman> it happens after I add the wallpaper
[22:25] <JontheEchidna> hrmhrm
[22:26] <shtylman> and then modify the wallpaper
[22:26] <shtylman> and add it again... I think
[22:26] <shtylman> but basically... I think the list could be smart enough to detect same paths
[22:26] <shtylman> for the underlying wallpaper
[22:26] <shtylman> and not add it again.. inho
[22:26] <shtylman> *imho
[22:26] <JontheEchidna> yeah, you'd want to check the createConfigurationInterface(); in image.cpp, as well as backgroundlistmodel.cpp
[22:26] <shtylman> so I wanna see what code does that
[22:26] <shtylman> k
[22:30] <shtylman> is there a good way to test those changes?
[22:30] <shtylman> obviously I compile it
[22:30] <shtylman> but do I have to restart my whole kde session?
[22:38] <JontheEchidna> plasmawallpaperviewer -p image
[22:38] <shtylman> :)
[23:00] <shtylman> so I think I know what happens
[23:00] <shtylman> when you add a new wallpaper by drag and drop
[23:00] <shtylman> I think it is copied to the .kde/share/wallpapers directory
[23:01] <shtylman> but when you open it using the "open" button of the dialog it is not
[23:01] <shtylman> so it is basicall possible to have the same wallpaper twice or at least make it look that way
[23:03] <shtylman> or the other way around.... but at some point... a wallpaper got copied to that directory
[23:05] <shtylman> also... once an image has been dragged and dropped
[23:05] <shtylman> it is not possible to do so again
[23:05] <shtylman> even if the image has changed
[23:05] <shtylman> it makes a cache of it?
[23:07] <shtylman> nvm... maybe it didn't pick up my update time ... cause it worked the second time
[23:09] <shtylman> ok...so here is the interesting part
[23:09] <shtylman> what happens is this:
[23:10] <shtylman> from a folder view... I drag and drop the wallpaper image
[23:10] <shtylman> this causes it to be copied into .kde/share/wallpaper
[23:10] <shtylman> but if I drag and drop from dolphin... it does not
[23:13] <shtylman> that copy causes it to appear multiple times in the list