=== steemed is now known as st33med
=== asac_ is now known as asac
AnmolSarmaUbuntu Manual07:41
AnmolSarmahey ya wassup?07:42
AnmolSarmaevery thing 5ne?07:42
AnmolSarmandvnknvmsdnnwnvnsffwhsd/sdilfhwnsdhfjha'owkknv .'ihlhwmnm,cnwhr07:43
AnmolSarmahai ya sup?07:43
AnmolSarmawfuck off!!07:44
AnmolSarmafuck off07:44
* elky blinks.08:04
humphreybcblah i made that coffee far too weak10:51
popeyAnmolSarma: please ensure your language is family friendly, unlike earlier today10:52
AnmolSarmaextememly sorry10:52
AnmolSarmathat was not me10:53
humphreybcOo are you getting into trouble O.o10:53
popeyhumphreybc: I promoted the meeting on identica/twitter10:53
humphreybchi popey, thanks a lot - are you on the mailing list?10:53
popeynot yet10:54
humphreybcno problems10:54
humphreybchere's the agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings10:54
humphreybcwe're still a few minutes early so we'll give the others a few minutes to get here :)10:54
* issyl0 will be just watching :)10:55
tacantaraGood morning from GMT -5 (US East).10:55
* brobostigon is also present10:55
humphreybcHi there tacantara10:55
humphreybcHaha sorry to get you up so early!10:55
humphreybcIt's just pressing on midnight down here in New Zealand10:55
tacantaraNo problem...got plenty of coffee :)10:56
humphreybcso have I, only got home from work about half an hour ago10:56
humphreybcsweet looking like we've got a good turnout :)10:56
nigel_nbpopey: thanks for the identi.ca warning, I think I'll join you guys on this project10:57
humphreybcawesome, the project page is: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual10:57
popeyI'll just be lurking for now, am making lunch :)10:57
humphreybcand of course the team page is just https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual10:57
humphreybccool cool10:57
humphreybcso 3 minutes, no rush10:58
humphreybcthis must be one of the first meetings for 201010:58
joe__Good morning everyone10:58
humphreybcfor those just joining us, here's the agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings10:58
humphreybcwe've got quite a lot to get through :)10:58
joe__woops, need to change my nick10:58
humphreybcgood morning joe10:58
=== joe__ is now known as jmburges
humphreybcIs Ryan Macnish here?10:59
jmburgesthats better, and good morning humphreybc10:59
humphreybcgood evening over here :)11:00
jmburgeswhere are you located?11:00
humphreybcnew zealand :)11:01
humphreybcGMT +1311:01
jmburgesexcellent, well in DC its 060011:01
humphreybcnice early start to your weekend :S11:01
jmburgeslate night11:01
humphreybcSo are we missing Jamin Day and Ryan Macnish?11:01
humphreybchmm, well i'll give them till 5 past and then kick off11:02
humphreybcah cool here's Ryan11:02
humphreybchello nisshh11:03
nisshhsorry im a bit late11:03
humphreybcno problems11:03
humphreybcwe're just waiting till 5 past to see if we can catch Jamin Day11:03
nisshhkk who else is here?11:03
humphreybcThere's quite a few present, good turnout11:03
=== jmburges is now known as jmburgess
AnmolSarmaI'm back11:04
AnmolSarmawhat did i miss?11:04
humphreybcwe're starting in 20 seconds :)11:04
nisshhnot much11:04
humphreybcalright well, if everyone's happy, i'll start the meeting11:04
MootBotMeeting started at 05:04. The chair is humphreybc.11:04
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]11:04
humphreybcOkay so welcome everyone11:05
nisshhin the mean time if you look iv uploaded some of chapter 7 to lp:ubuntu-manual11:05
humphreybcFor those who haven't seen it yet, here's the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings11:05
humphreybcoh awesome, I will have a look at that a bit later11:05
humphreybcso the first topic is the change to plain text11:05
nisshhand added some stuff to the readme11:05
humphreybcSo I decided the other day to change from docbook to plain text11:06
humphreybcand you can see my justification here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Technical Details11:06
humphreybcwhat does everyone think of using plain text over docbook?11:06
nigel_nbhumphreybc: did you guys think of asciidoc?11:07
humphreybcObviously it won't give us any formatting, but the plan is to leave the formatting to later11:07
dutchiemy first thought'd've been TeX to be honest11:07
jmburgessI think that down the road, it could lead to a lot of headaches with formatting11:07
jmburgessyeah I agree with dutchie on using TeX11:07
humphreybcnigel_nb and dutchie: I've actually had a couple of people email me suggesting some other alternatives11:07
humphreybcso by TeX you mean LaTeX?11:08
nisshhits now 7 past, should we start or wait?11:08
humphreybcwe've started :)11:08
dutchieyeah, LaTeX11:08
humphreybcperhaps you've got serious lag or something nisshh11:08
humphreybcOkay well i'm unfamiliar with LaTeX - could you just run over the benefits of using LaTeX?11:08
nigel_nbthe ubuntu community learning project uses asciidoc, so just a suggestion11:08
dutchiewell, the formatting is built right in, it's mostly just plain text with a few \command{arg} bits11:09
dutchieloads of packages to extend it as well11:09
humphreybcright, so compared to docbook, which uses HTML, how easy would it be for someone who doesn't know HTML to pick up and use?11:10
humphreybcand also to convert what we've got so far?11:10
jmburgessit also was made to do this sort of thing, it has packages for things like inserting highligted code11:10
humphreybcI've also had Pascal Bach email me suggesting Restructered Text, which I said I would bring up11:10
dutchieProbably easier to convert than docbook11:10
nisshhi do have lag11:10
dutchieI'd say it's on a par for learning11:10
nisshhbut its gone11:10
jmburgessyes it is on par with learning html, if you have had no html experience but there are GUI latex writers11:11
nisshhi like the plain text but i would like to know more about LaTeX11:11
humphreybcSo what do you recommend for the game plan - convert current plain text to LaTeX asap, and then use that right through the milestones? I presume it can output to PDF etc11:11
dutchieyeah, PDF is no problem at all11:11
dutchieI think using LaTeX from day 0 is much easier than plain text then putting the formatting in later on11:12
humphreybcOkay, for converting what we've got, would you like to give me a hand with that next week, if we vote to switch to LaTeX?11:12
jmburgessi can easily help, it isn't too bad11:12
jmburgessThough we need to make and decide on a latex template to use11:12
dutchieI'd be happy to invest some time, not going to have a huge amount of free time over the next few weeks though11:13
AnmolSarmait should not take much effort11:13
humphreybcMy plan was just to use the plain text for content, and then basically copying/pasting the whole thing into an openoffice document to do formatting and images - then using different branches and series on LP to sort out the merging.11:13
humphreybcBut if LaTeX is a viable alternative, i'd be happy to put my vote in for that.11:13
humphreybcOkay awesome, so it looks like we're switching to LaTeX. Would anyone who knows more than me (which is everyone!) like to update the relevant sections on the wiki with LaTeX information?11:14
jmburgessI would be happy to work on a document template, and maybe write up a brief how to11:14
nisshharrrr still getting lagg11:14
humphreybcjmburgess, that is awesome11:14
humphreybcnisshh - what client are you using?11:14
jmburgessyeah I will work on it today11:14
AnmolSarmatry this http://webchat.freenode.net/11:14
nisshhwhat should i be using?11:14
humphreybcjmburgess - would you like to take that under your wing, and i'll write up a blueprint for it after the meeting. What's your launchpad username?11:14
jmburgesshumphreybc: Yep, I can do that, my launchpad username is joemburgess11:15
humphreybcOkay and you're a member of the team?11:15
humphreybcSo just before we end this topic, is everyone happy with the switch to LaTeX?11:15
nisshhok lag fixed for now11:15
tacantaraWorks for me.  I'm not familiar with it, but there's a good LaTeX primer at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LaTeX11:16
AnmolSarmais Texmacs any good for latex?11:16
nisshhso will we vote on latex11:16
dutchieAnmolSarma: don't know, I use latex-suite for vim ;)11:16
humphreybccool, so nisshh just to summarize if you've missed anything, we've decided to change to LaTeX and do away with plain text and ODT11:16
jamindayok with me too - will have to get up to speed but happy to do some reading11:16
nisshhtexmacs being a latex version of emacs?11:16
humphreybcjmburgess is going to help with converting the current plain text to LaTeX, and writing a short howto11:17
dutchieonce the template is set up I'll help out with the conversion11:17
humphreybcOkay so i'm just going to do a vote under MootBot, once I issue VOTE, then just use +1 or -1 to vote yes or no11:17
humphreybc[VOTE] Change to LaTeX11:17
MootBotPlease vote on:  Change to LaTeX.11:17
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot11:17
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting11:17
jmburgessdutchie: Thanks, whats your launchpad username so I can email you or something11:18
nisshhok got it11:18
MootBot+1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 111:18
MootBotPrivate +1 vote received. 2 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 211:18
MootBot+1 received from KelvinGardiner. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:18
MootBot+1 received from dutchie. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 411:18
MootBot+1 received from tacantara. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 511:18
MootBot+1 received from jaminday. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 611:18
MootBotPrivate +1 vote received. 7 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 711:18
MootBot+1 received from nigel_nb. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 811:18
MootBot+1 received from AnmolSarma. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 911:18
MootBot+1 received from nisshh. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1011:18
humphreybcokay i think that's an overwhelming majority in favour :)11:18
MootBotFinal result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 1011:18
humphreybcFantastic, that's the first topic sorted out. :)11:18
nisshhwhats next?11:19
humphreybcOkay, so next topic: Sourcing Images11:19
humphreybcThe agenda is a wee bit out of order sorry11:19
humphreybcbut that's alright11:19
humphreybcso basically I put this in here so we can decide on what sort of images to use, where we're getting them from and whether we are going to create some custom diagrams or not11:19
humphreybcObviously we'll need screenshots, although translating for screenshots will be an effort11:20
humphreybcA picture is worth a thousand words, and I think we need to have lots of screenshots - so maybe this translating problem might have to be dealt with. Thoughts?11:20
nisshhwell png is good for format11:20
jmburgessand png is good for latex as well11:20
humphreybcYep png is pretty much a given11:20
jamindayanyone in charge of translation yet?11:20
humphreybcOkay perfect11:21
nisshhjmburgess: good11:21
humphreybcjaminday, no we haven't had much interest in translation so far :S11:21
tacantaraI agree with the use of more screenshots.  As a fairly new user (still under 1 yr) I haven't found a manual with enough screenshots11:21
nisshhnope no one11:21
humphreybcUnfortunately I'm not fluent enough in German to do any translations11:21
dutchiewitht the translations, I think we could have "partial translations" available where the text is but not the screenshots aren't11:21
nisshhdoes anyone here speak a second (or more) language11:21
humphreybcsure, until at least we get enough interest for more people to help translate11:22
AnmolSarmaI do11:22
_jbl_I do: french, english, danish11:22
humphreybcI'm not sure we are going to get many translations out in time for Lucid11:22
humphreybcI mean, we are pressed for time just for the english version11:22
_jbl_re screenshot translation issue: some sort of macro that translators can use to generate the same screenshot in their locale ?11:22
humphreybcSo i think translations can be a goal for Lucid +1 and beyond11:22
jamindayagreed - perhaps english should be the focus initially then expand later?11:22
humphreybcjaminday - yes that's a good idea11:22
nisshhbut possibly for 10.1011:22
AnmolSarmawe should probalbly leave the translating to the respective LoCos11:23
jmburgesswe will need to do some recruiting11:23
dutchiemaybe not leave it to the LoCos, but coordinate with them11:23
humphreybcSure, if you know anyone who helps translate other docs and has some spare time on their hands, point them our way11:23
AnmolSarmawell yes coordinate with them11:23
humphreybcOnce we do get the english version out for Lucid with much gusto, we should hopefully attract enough attention for some translators11:23
humphreybcit would be nice if we could get some ubuntu members with their feed aggregated to the planet to give us a shoutout *cough cough*11:24
dutchiepopey has already pimped the meeting on twitter11:24
humphreybcThat's just a side note actually, if you do know anyone that has their blog on the planet, please send them the links to the project - I've already been talking with Jono Bacon and he's going to have a look next week hopefully11:24
humphreybcWe do need all the help we can get if we want this out in 4 months :)11:25
nisshhyes true11:25
humphreybcOkay, so back on topic - screenshots are good, translating them we shall leave to the future for now. Someone needs to start sourcing images11:25
dutchiethrowing together basic diagrams in inkscape shouldn't be too hard11:25
jamindayi can do screenshots via virtualbox once content is written...11:25
humphreybcAlso, the images should really be taken from the Lucid Alpha11:25
humphreybcjaminday, that sounds great11:26
humphreybci'm running Lucid in VBox too11:26
humphreybcso we can coordinate on that11:26
tacantaraI'm running Lucid on a separate partition, so capturing screenshots shouldn't be too difficult11:26
nisshhi will get lucid in vbox11:26
jmburgessIm running Lucid on a spare machine so screenshots can be pretty easily gotten, do we have a sort of, screenshots I need page?11:26
humphreybcjmburgess - fantastic idea!11:27
humphreybcI will write one up on the wiki tomorrow :)11:27
jamindayi'm assuming screenshots should be taken from a 'vanilla' install to avoid reader confusion11:27
humphreybcYes that would be best11:27
jamindayie default wallpapers/icons etc11:27
jmburgessjaminday: that makes the most sense to me11:27
nisshhnot yet11:27
humphreybcOf course we needn't worry about stuff too much yet, because Lucid is in Alpha only11:27
humphreybcand things will change11:27
AnmolSarmaa lot11:27
jamindayagreed - maybe something to be aware of as it gets closer to release perhaps11:28
nisshhbut we should make one for artist contribs11:28
tacantaraTrue....some of the Lucid branding hasn't made it in yet (check the Help page, still refers to it as Karmic)11:28
humphreybcSo for now I'll start compiling our list - of course having the content will help some more. As another side note, does LaTeX have something like notes?11:28
humphreybcAnd the default wallpaper doesn't make an appearance till late Beta/RC normally11:28
humphreybcSo this could get tight - we may have to wait for screenshots till the RC of the manual, I think that gives us two weeks before Lucid release11:28
dutchienotes? like footnotes or comments? (it has both)11:28
jamindayyes thats what i was thinking11:29
jamindaystill compiling a list of 'screenshots needed' or something would help11:29
humphreybcSo when we're writing things and the author feels an image would be good to complement his text, he should put in a "note/comment" that says "image of such and such should go here"11:29
jmburgesshumphreybc: Yes It has comments11:29
humphreybcjaminday - yep I've noted that down, and I'll do that tomorrow. I'll churn through the Table of Contents thus far and pretty much start out11:29
humphreybcAlso, feel free to add to/change the wiki page if you like11:29
dutchieit autogenerates ToC as well11:30
humphreybcYou don't have to ask me for permission or anything - just at the bottom in the section "comments" mark what you've changed :)11:30
humphreybcawesome - so that's screenshots, now onto diagrams/artist images - stuff that's uniquely created for this project. a) Do we want/need it, and b) where/who are we going to get it from?11:30
nisshhIf you screw the wiki page up you are responsible for reverting your changes though11:31
humphreybcnisshh - haha yes that's a good point, be careful :)11:31
jmburgessi think we may or may not need it, and we will probably be making them in the early editions11:32
humphreybcSo for the artwork/diagrams - I can't actually think of much that we will need them for11:32
tacantaraIf we grab images from, say, Google, is that considered in the public domain, or will there be problems with using images from sources like that?11:32
humphreybcPerhaps the odd icon or something every now and then where there is a big hunk of text to break it up would be nice11:32
humphreybcso it's not so full on11:32
dutchietacantara: you have to look at the individual focus11:32
jmburgesstacantara: I think we need to look into where it is hosted and such11:32
dutchiefocus? source11:32
nisshhwe may need a few but probably not many11:33
humphreybcFor anything that's not Creative Commons, I believe you need to ask the owners permission11:33
jamindayhumphreybc - yes lots of pictures = less daunting11:33
humphreybcI'm sure most people will be stoked about their artwork going into a publication11:33
jamindayfor the average reader anyway11:33
nisshhplus alot of google images are watermarked11:33
AnmolSarmayou can get the icons from icon packs from gnome look etc.11:33
humphreybcthat's true11:33
nisshhgood point11:34
jmburgesshumphreybc: have we decided on a license for the manual?11:34
dutchiethere should be plenty of screenshots, I'm not sure about where we'll need diagrams11:34
humphreybcOkay, well for now I think that's pretty much covered - we can talk about that at the next meeting, when the content is in place11:34
humphreybcjmburgess : that's next on the agenda :)11:34
KelvinGardinerIt would be good to use the default Ubuntu icons fro tip boxes etc.11:34
jmburgesshumphreybc: woops! your right11:34
humphreybcjmburgess: no worries11:34
humphreybcOkay so everyone happy with the images topic? Any further comments?11:35
humphreybcSweet, moving on then - next on the agenda: Licensing of the manual11:35
dutchieisn't the GPL pretty code-centric? shouldn't we be thinking more about the GFDL or maybe CC?11:35
humphreybcNow i know hardly anything about licensing11:35
humphreybcdutchie: exactly, see I know nothing :)11:36
nisshhisnt CC for artwork and such?11:36
humphreybcthat's just a placeholder really until we came to this meeting11:36
dutchieI don't know much more11:36
AnmolSarmawhich version of cc ?11:36
humphreybcSomeone emailed me a great link on open source documentation licensing11:36
humphreybcbut i've lost it now11:36
nisshhand what does GFDL stand for?11:36
humphreybcIs there anyone else in the room that knows a bit more about licensing?11:36
dutchieFree Documentation Licence, either GNU or General11:36
jamindayi know nothing...11:36
dutchiewikipedia uses it11:37
jmburgessI know that CC is generally for written things as well11:37
humphreybcwhich version? GPL v3 or 4?11:37
nisshhah ok be worth looking into11:37
jmburgessThe ubuntu documentation wiki is CC11:37
humphreybcright... I'll get in touch with some of the docs team and talk to them11:37
AnmolSarmaGPL v4?11:37
nisshhis it really?11:37
AnmolSarmathere is a v4?11:37
nisshhdidnt know that11:37
humphreybcor is it 3?11:38
humphreybcv2 and 3?11:38
KelvinGardinerCC is simple to understand, I'd say go for CC.11:38
nisshhno v4 yet11:38
humphreybcCC it is then11:38
humphreybcI will confirm with the docs guys first though11:38
AnmolSarmaCC has multiple variants11:38
KelvinGardinerWhich CC?11:38
humphreybcyeah exactly haha11:38
AnmolSarmasee this11:38
MootBotLINK received:  http://creativecommons.org/choose/11:39
nisshhthere is a main one11:39
humphreybcinteresting how mootBot didn't pick up the https...11:39
jmburgessThey use ShareAlike which means you can do whatever as long as you share with the same license11:39
jmburgesshumphreybc: good point11:39
nisshhah yes, best to talk to doc guy first but i am for CC11:39
AnmolSarmahow about CC-GNU GPL11:40
humphreybcokay well it looks like it's CC something a rather, but i'll sort that out over the coming days and let everyone know via mailing list11:40
humphreybcAnmolSarma: That sounds like just about everything! :)11:40
dutchiewikipedia is dual-licenced CC-BY-SA and GFDL11:40
MootBotLINK received:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights11:40
nisshhok, next topic?11:41
humphreybcyep next topic11:41
humphreybcBzr familiarity11:41
nisshhwho is and who isnt?11:41
humphreybcHmm well I think I just put this in here to make sure everyone knows what's happening with bzr11:41
humphreybcAnd also I'm still looking for someone to check my entry on the wiki about it11:41
jamindayi have basic familiarity from playing with it over the last few weeks11:41
humphreybchttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Using bzr11:41
jmburgessI use it for my coding work at school, so I am pretty familiar11:42
nisshhoh sorry i did check you wiki entry the other day its pretty alright11:42
humphreybcOkay cool - yeah as it says on the wiki entry, I only created the project, so I never had to actually get it from an already established branch11:42
nisshhiv been using bzr since mid last year11:42
tacantaraI finally got it figured out yesterday, and was able to download/upload to LP11:42
humphreybctacantara: good to hear11:42
AnmolSarmaBut i can't seem to connect through a university proxy11:43
AnmolSarmawas able to work from my home connection tough11:43
humphreybcOkay so we seem to be all good there, AnmolSarma - there is some information on proxy bzr somewhere, perhaps on the official Bazaar documentation (link on our wiki)11:43
jmburgessAnmolSarma: does your university blcok ssh connections11:43
AnmolSarmawill try and figure it out11:43
humphreybcCool cool11:44
humphreybcnext topic, Approver for main release blueprints11:44
humphreybcNow at the moment I've set that to me, but it should really be the Team I think11:44
nisshhyes agreed11:44
humphreybcOkay cool, i'll change those around tomorrow11:44
humphreybcMoving on, next topic: Overall Goal Revisions11:45
humphreybcNow, that stands at the moment as:11:45
humphreybcWell written and easy to follow11:45
humphreybcProfessional appearance in keeping with the Ubuntu image11:45
humphreybcDetailed, but not overwhelming11:45
humphreybcRevisions every 6 months to keep up to date with each release11:45
humphreybc(it's the second chapter on our wiki)11:45
nisshhi think we a good in this regard11:46
humphreybcI just came up with these off the top of my head, what does everyone think?11:46
nisshhnothing needs changing really11:46
KelvinGardinerSounds good.11:46
humphreybcOkay cool, that makes that easy :)11:46
jamindayagreed though one question regarding 'well written' - i'm assuming you want it to be pretty reader-friendly11:46
humphreybcNow, next topic that I put in today was the feedback from KelvinGardiner11:46
humphreybcyep hang on, jaminday - it does need to be reader friendly11:47
jamindaynot too 'professional' or overwhelming11:47
humphreybcSo you think that we need to swap out the well written with something else?11:47
nisshhmaybe easy to understand or something11:47
KelvinGardinerhumphreybc: Do you want me to put the email in pastebin?11:47
humphreybcKelvin, yes that would be very useful11:47
humphreybcnisshh - that's what I tried to convey with the "easy to follow"11:48
jamindayno its ok just wanting to clarify where it's targeted and to what level of complexity11:48
nisshhah yes i see11:48
humphreybcSo basically, by "well written" what I mean is that it should be in a consistent, up to date style that flows well and has no errors etc11:48
humphreybcobviously consistency will vary between authors11:48
nisshhah, perfect then.11:48
MootBotLINK received:  http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/350369/11:48
humphreybcbut we can slowly iron that out11:48
humphreybcOkay awesome, so we're set on that. If anyone has any comments regarding the goals, either email the mailing list or put a comment at the bottom of the wiki page11:49
KelvinGardinerThere was an anti-openoffice bit I've removed.11:49
humphreybcSo, back to Kelvin's email, he sent me this today and he does have some good points11:49
nisshhreading it now...11:49
dutchiethe email seems to make sense11:50
humphreybcI agree entirely with his points on the chapter changes, re-ordering and adding a chapter on wine. Also combining 8 and 10 seems logical11:50
jmburgesshumphreybc: I agree with the combining, I keep wanting to add updating to my chapter 1011:50
jamindayalso agreed with clarification on useful apps11:51
dutchiedefinitely change "Packaging" to something else. It means nothing to a new user, and an experienced one may think of it as building packages11:51
tacantaraThe online resources is a good idea.  Things like the "Linux isn't Windows" webpage is a great read for people who are new to Ubuntu11:51
humphreybcAs for the first point about using the community docs, I feel that we should use them as a foundation to get the idea for something, and as cross-checking with them, but we need to write it from scratch, as the ubuntu docs are often outdated and inconsistent11:51
nisshhall good points11:51
humphreybcIdeas for packaging? Useful Apps chapter is on the agenda for today a bit later on11:51
AnmolSarmawhat about splitting the book into 2 parts?11:51
jamindayhumphreybc: ok np11:52
humphreybcAnmolSarma - yes I haven't thought about this bit yet, was waiting till tonight11:52
humphreybcThanks I almost forgot11:52
nisshhanmol: explain more please11:52
nisshhwhy two parts?11:52
humphreybcFor me, i'm not too worried - it could make sense splitting it into two parts, but whether it's necessary or not I'm not sure. We could just bunch the harder stuff up near the end11:53
AnmolSarmathat sounds good11:53
humphreybcnisshh: Two parts, first half for complete beginners, second half is aimed at advanced users (terminal etc)11:53
nisshhwhat like a basic and advanced?11:53
dutchiemaybe part 1 and part 2 - "Stop reading here if you don't care about advanced stuff"11:53
AnmolSarmamaybe a 'meta' chapter in the end11:53
jamindayyes the manual could have a complexity gradient of sorts11:53
nisshhah yes ok.11:53
humphreybcIt was always going to have a complexity gradient under the surface11:53
KelvinGardinerOne advantage to having two parts is we can focus on the beginner part and leave the advanced part of we run out of time.11:54
jamindayah ok11:54
humphreybcSo the user should slowly be able to progress through each chapter11:54
dutchieprobably worth making the complexity gradient explicit11:54
nisshhi think part of getting the complexity gradient right is re-ordering the chapters11:54
jamindaydutchie: agreed11:54
humphreybcKelvin, that is a good idea - so if we were going to split it into two parts, the cutoff would be at the end of chapter 5, but with chapter 8 moved back11:54
dutchieso we can say in the introduction "no need to read the whole thing, stop when you're happy" or some such11:54
humphreybcand chapter 10 combined with 811:54
humphreybcWhich would give us a fairly even 6 and 4 chapter ratio for the two parts11:55
dutchiesounds good11:55
humphreybcOkay, well I will put it to a vote, any last comments on this?11:55
nisshhand maybe split chapter 7 into a bit of basic and the a heap of advanced stuff in part 211:56
jmburgessnisshh: yes because terminal stuff can be quite huge (and daunting)11:56
humphreybcI think the terminal should be completely left out of the first half11:56
dutchieno terminal stuff in the first half11:56
KelvinGardinerhumphreybc: I agree.11:56
jamindayhow will overlap of content be managed11:57
dutchiehow much is this going to deal with KDE/XFCE?11:57
humphreybcOkay, well I agree to two parts - it makes sense. We can concentrate on the first half in case we run out of time, it saves absolute beginners reading the whole thing, and it widens the target audience.11:57
humphreybcdutchie - Not much at all - it's the "Ubuntu Manual" for now, perhaps in the future if it becomes popular and the demand is there, we can branch off for the "Kubuntu Manual" and "Xubuntu Manual" etc11:57
nisshhdutchie: not much unless we include a section for DE's11:58
dutchieOK, just wanted to get that straight11:58
humphreybcAwesome, so I'll put it to a vote for the half/half thing11:58
AnmolSarmaso it's no longer "The Beginner's Manual"11:58
humphreybc[VOTE] Explicitly splitting the manual into two halves, the first being for Beginners and the latter for more Advanced users11:58
MootBotPlease vote on:  Explicitly splitting the manual into two halves, the first being for Beginners and the latter for more Advanced users.11:58
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot11:58
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting11:58
MootBot+1 received from dutchie. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 111:59
MootBot+1 received from humphreybc. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 211:59
MootBot+1 received from KelvinGardiner. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:59
MootBot+1 received from nisshh. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 411:59
MootBot+1 received from tacantara. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 511:59
MootBot+1 received from AnmolSarma. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 611:59
MootBot+1 received from jaminday. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 711:59
humphreybcAnmolSarma: For simplicities sake, I dropped that title for now11:59
humphreybcWe can decide on another title later if Canonical aren't happy with us using "Ubuntu Manual" (which is a possibility)11:59
humphreybcokay, ending the vote11:59
MootBotFinal result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 711:59
AnmolSarmaso we should send them a shout around alpha?12:00
humphreybcOkay, now onto the next topic - if someone would like to take over chair for a minute I'm just going to pop for a toilet stop. The next topic is "Review of the current series setup on Launchpad" and basically deals with whether we need more than one branch.12:00
humphreybcAnmolSarma: I'll talk to Jono Bacon a bit later on about the title12:01
jmburgessDo we need more than one branch?12:01
jmburgessWhat would it be used for?12:01
nisshhnot at this stage i dont think12:01
dutchieI can't see a reason unless we start doing a Kubuntu Manual or whatever12:01
nisshhbut maybe later on12:02
nisshhthere are a multitude of different ways we could structure it12:02
AnmolSarmaTranslations too will probalbly need separate branches12:02
KelvinGardinerWe should have a branch fro each release, Karmic, Lucid, etc. But not for now.12:02
jmburgessRight, I agree with you all12:02
humphreybcCool, back. Sounds good, so just one for now.12:02
nisshhKelvin: good point12:02
humphreybcAwesome, moving on - Alpha Release - what we need to have ready by then12:03
humphreybcNow, this is sort of roughly outlined in the blueprint12:03
humphreybcBut, because we've been changing from ODT to docbook to plain text to LaTeX we've been a bit delayed12:03
nisshhthe blueprint covers it nicely12:03
humphreybcand the alpha release is basically less than 30 days away - can we get the content written and edited in 30 days?12:04
jmburgesshumphreybc: I think we can get it written in 30 days, maybe not edited12:04
jamindayagreed - a rough edit perhaps12:04
nisshhi can write my whole chapter in a week probably12:04
jmburgessAlso keep writing in plain text, its going to take me a day or so to create the latex template12:04
humphreybc"This release should have the basics of all 11 chapters in place, in rough draft format. The text should be there, but images and references might not be. Formatting and Styles will still need to be confirmed and implemented in the beta release."12:04
nisshhbut no one has claimed several chapters12:05
humphreybcThat's what we've got so far12:05
tacantaraWhich chapters are still unclaimed?12:05
humphreybcYeah that's the other thing, we need to get those missing chapters assigned12:05
humphreybcA lot of them12:05
humphreybcI need to create blueprints for 1 and 2, which I've already written12:05
nisshhi might grab another chapter12:05
humphreybcbut we've got 4, 5, 6, 8, 11 still12:05
humphreybcI'll tackle 5 I think as well12:06
dutchieI could have a bash at 412:06
jamindayI could have a go at 812:06
jmburgesswell I now have 812:06
nisshhi might grab 11 also12:06
AnmolSarma5 and 11 call for collaboration12:06
humphreybcSo, if we break down that summary for alpha. The basics of all chapters in place, in rough draft - I think this is doable12:06
jmburgessWell I am doing 10 already so 8 kinda falls in my court, but jaminday if you want 8 we can bring them together12:07
humphreybcAwesome - also for those of you in here "lurking" just taking a look, don't panic if you think we've stolen all the work - there will be a lot more to do than just writing the chapters :)12:07
KelvinGardinerI'll do 6.12:07
jamindayjmburgess: agreed. Should 8 and 10 be merged into one chapter?12:07
humphreybcAwesome guys, this is great stuff!12:07
dutchieReviewing merge proposals will do as editing12:07
b1ackcr0wis there one you'd be happy to give a newbie?12:08
humphreybcIf you all could create the blueprints where they're missing for each chapter, following the way the current ones are made, and assign yourselves12:08
nisshhdont forget you can also suggest bits in the chapter blueprints, thats collaboration12:08
humphreybcHi blackcr0w12:08
humphreybcHave we got one for blackcr0w guys?12:08
jamindaydutchie: ok no problem12:08
jmburgessjaminday: I am going to add the ch 8 stuff to my ch 10 blueprint, and I have already started it with rev. 14 on bzr but you can write the apt related stuff12:09
* b1ackcr0w writes training documentation for bespoke software at work12:09
dutchieI'd appreciate some help on 4, I've got a busy few weeks coming up12:09
nisshhim sure theres one you could do12:09
humphreybcblackcr0w - chapter 4?12:09
b1ackcr0wok - i'll have to look up what that entails12:09
AnmolSarmaI could help on 412:09
dutchieb1ackcr0w: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Proposed Table of Contents12:09
jamindayjmburgess: ok i'll take a look12:10
humphreybcIt's basically "around your desktop" - so explaining what the core programs do, how to configure simple settings, and that's about it really12:10
humphreybcOh and explaining panels etc12:10
AnmolSarmaSo, I'm still doing referencing/fact-checking right?12:10
tacantaraRather than writing a chapter, I'd like to assist in editing.  I could probably benefit the project more by brining in  a "noob" perspective12:10
humphreybcAnmolSarma - yep sure thing, if you think you've got enough time12:10
b1ackcr0w4 - magic that's right up my street12:10
dutchietacantara: I think if you just read what's going on and fire suggestions at the mailing list12:11
humphreybctacantara - sure, Jamin's on editing at the moment - You and Jamin can collaborate12:11
jamindaytacantara: help with editing would be welcomed12:11
b1ackcr0wI'll work with anmol on that12:11
humphreybcOkay cool I'll let you guys sort it out amongst yourselves - just to make all this communication easier, could I request that everyone updates their contact details on their own personal Launchpad account?12:11
humphreybcEmail and IRC are preferable12:12
humphreybcAnd I need to get our own channel.... :S12:12
dutchieand join the team12:12
nisshhsorry to be hasty but iv got to go out in about 40 mins could we speed this up a bit12:12
humphreybcOkay, back on track, the next half of the summary for alpha reads: "The text should be there, but images and references might not be. Formatting and Styles will still need to be confirmed and implemented in the beta release." - I think this is pretty much sorted, that makes sense. I'll change it to "but images will not be"12:13
humphreybcnisshh - yep we'll try, it's taking a while!12:13
humphreybcOkay, moving on, Formatting - this is a biggy. Does LaTeX support something like CSS styles, so we can change one setting and everything will change?12:14
humphreybc(That's another reason why I liked ODT)12:14
dutchieI'm pretty sure it does12:14
nisshhit looks like it from what iv seen12:14
humphreybcRighto, so for now I think we'll stick with the formatting that's pretty much outlined in that PDF available for download on the project page12:14
nisshhsounds good12:15
humphreybcnisshh - if you have to leave, that's all good - I'm going to write up a summary of the meeting tomorrow and mailing list it to everyone anyway12:15
nisshhok, thanks for letting me know12:15
jmburgessdutchie, it easily supports styling12:16
humphreybcCool, next, Editing - I think we covered this above - there's not a whole lot to talk about here, just usual things, grammar, spelling, phrasing - if it's something major then perhaps talk to the original author and see what they have to say. If we try to get it right when we write it in the first place, then the editors job will be easy.12:16
jmburgesshumphreybc: I will try and get close to that styling in the pdf12:16
humphreybcDoes LaTeX have spellchecking? It's always useful12:16
humphreybcjmburgess: that sounds great12:16
nisshhcouldnt spellchecking be done by whatever text editor your using?12:17
jamindayhumphreybc: agreed. Perhaps if authors are ok with minor changes being made to their work (eg spelling, rephrasing an awkward sentence etc) but major reworks taken back to the original author12:17
dutchielatex is more a markup, the editor has to spell check12:17
AnmolSarmasounds good to me12:18
humphreybcOkay well just going off what I've seen so far, everyone seems to have a fairly good grasp of the english language so I don't think we'll have any problems there :)12:18
dutchie(by editor I mean text editor)12:18
nisshhdutchie: right12:18
humphreybcBeaut - moving on, Chapter 9 - Useful Applications12:18
humphreybcTake a look at the list and fire me some changes12:18
dutchiemaybe split them up into "in the repos" and "not in the repos"12:18
humphreybcCurrently, VLC, Banshee, Google Chrome, Cheese, Sun Virtualbox, Jokosher Audio Editor, Ubuntu Tweak12:18
nisshhmaybe add the GIMP since it wont be in lucid12:19
AnmolSarmaipod management?12:19
humphreybcdutchie: For simplicity sake I was going to try to just have stuff that's in the repos - actually, Ubuntu Tweak isn't so we'll have to reconsider that12:19
humphreybcYeah the GIMP is a good addition12:19
jmburgessAmaranth: I feel like that can be under Banshee12:19
jamindaywill we cover adding ppa's in this chapter12:19
nisshhand PiTiVi is a good vid editor - easy to sue12:19
b1ackcr0wubuntu one?12:19
tacantaraBut, while Sun VB is in the repos, the version available at Sun's website is much beter12:19
humphreybcUbuntu one is included by default... or is it?12:19
jmburgessnisshh: I feel like trying to explain PiTiVi in a page or two might be somewhat daunting12:20
nisshhjamin: might be better in the advanced section12:20
dutchieI think we need to cover installing packages from outside the repos - i.e. avoid compiling from source12:20
b1ackcr0wbut getting an account isnt12:20
brobostigonhumphreybc: in karmic ubuntu one is there by default, yes.12:20
tacantaraIf I recall correctly, Ubuntu One is default in Lucid12:20
KelvinGardinermaybe we could use the apps here : https://launchpad.net/b-sides12:20
humphreybctacantara: True, but I think by Lucid they would have pushed it upstream... maybe a note at the end of the chapter saying something like "For the latest versions, always check the program site" or something12:20
dutchieKelvinGardiner: good plan12:20
humphreybcAh, B-Sides. Good idea.12:21
humphreybcdutchie: Yes I was going to try to stay with .deb packages from external sources, and also PPAs...12:21
humphreybcno compiling from source, that's far too hard for this manual12:21
jmburgessI feel like in the beginner section, there should be nothing on adding external sources12:22
humphreybcSo we think add the Gimp and Pitivi to the list, remove Ubuntu Tweak (because it's not in the repos)12:22
humphreybcjmburgess: That is quite a good idea, because the default repos have a tonne of stuff anyway12:22
dutchieit does seem that newcomers often end up trying to install random tarballs off project websites when applications are in the repos12:22
humphreybcdutchie: They're used to downloading .exes12:22
humphreybcSo we need to make this totally clear12:23
dutchiehumphreybc: exactly, we need to explain that things are different12:23
humphreybcWho's doing the Packaging (or whatever we are calling it) chapter?12:23
jamindayi guess that's jmburgess and I will be contributing12:24
humphreybcOh it's chapter 412:24
AnmolSarmaRight, make it clear that there is no need to go the project's website12:24
jamindayah sorry wrong chapter12:24
dutchieOK, I'll be sure to make that clear12:24
humphreybcOkay cool, so yeah, you'll need to make it clear the differences between Windows and Ubuntu in regards to acquiring software12:24
humphreybcIt could almost be in bold...12:24
nisshhit NEEDS to be in bold rofl12:25
humphreybcSweet as, next agenda is Screenshots and Artwork... we've already covered that so I'll skip it, so that has Glossary of Terms12:25
humphreybcthat leaves*12:25
tacantaraWould it be too confusing to add a proviso, i.e. "if you must donwload from a website, seek out a .deb package?12:25
dutchieor an upstream repo12:25
humphreybctacantara: Perhaps somewhere in the advanced section12:25
nisshhi think GoT should be done after alpha but before beta12:26
jmburgessnisshh: I agree12:26
humphreybcOkay so I'll make the milestone beta? I think it may already be that12:26
jmburgessAnd latex has a built in ability to create indexes12:26
humphreybcjmburgess: awesome!12:26
dutchielatex has a built in ability to do a hell of a lot of stuff12:26
humphreybcAlright, so that's set - next, reviewing of release dates. https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual12:27
jmburgessAs well as glossaries so formatting wise we should be good12:27
nisshhgood its powerful then12:27
humphreybcIf everyone wants to go there and have a look at the milestones12:27
nisshhi think the current ones are good12:27
humphreybcWe've got Jan 31 for Alpha, March 15 for Beta (This gives us tonnes of time, a month and a half) and then April 20th for RC12:27
humphreybcIf we must, we can push alpha back to Feb 15th12:27
dutchieDo we need that much time between Beta and RC?12:27
nisshhyes because beta is the main tweaking period12:28
humphreybcdutchie: I'm not sure, perhaps not - If you see the reasoning it's mainly to catch out changes for Lucid12:28
humphreybcThe RC does need to be quite late, for that exact reason12:28
humphreybcSo that we can get any changes in Lucid12:28
humphreybcafter all, this will be a Lucid manual12:28
nisshhwhen lucid final?12:29
humphreybcreleased on the same day as Lucid, so it needs to be current, an RC any earlier than the 20th and we'd be missing last minute changes12:29
humphreybcLucid final is the 29th April12:29
humphreybcsame day as our final12:29
nisshhah ok12:29
dutchieif the RC needs to be that late, we could push back the alpha and beta12:30
dutchiemaybe a week or so12:30
humphreybcMy goal is to have the manual featured on the www.ubuntu.com download page right beside the download link for Lucid12:30
humphreybcdutchie: That's a good idea, how about the Alpha is pushed back to the 10th Feb or something?12:30
humphreybcAnd leave Beta how it is12:30
AnmolSarmaThe Lubuntu approach, eh?12:30
jamindaythat would allow more time for writing content12:30
humphreybc.. which is the main part, after all12:30
humphreybcso that makes sense. Everyone agree on the 10th Feb?12:31
humphreybcOr even the 15th Feb12:31
humphreybcJust on the note of milestones, what is everyones' thinking on the time we've given ourselves? Is it enough?12:31
AnmolSarmashould be enough12:31
humphreybcFour months to write a fully featured beginners manual from scratch12:31
jmburgessIt sounds like enough to me12:31
nisshhi think so12:32
humphreybcOkay cool, awesome12:32
jamindayas long as we can get LaTeX going and content written12:32
humphreybcSo 10th or 15th?12:32
AnmolSarmaa day after Valentine's? Not such a good idea12:32
humphreybcHaha okay 10th it is12:32
nisshhwhy not>12:32
jamindaybusy night?12:33
jamindayediting i mean...12:33
humphreybcRighto, now we're onto the last two items - any feedback or questions?12:33
nisshhnot at this stage12:33
humphreybcNow's the time to ask anything, as the next meeting won't be for at least 3 weeks12:33
humphreybcGames - a chapter on games...12:33
AnmolSarmaThe one question that every linux user dreads12:34
nisshhgood idea but near the end12:34
AnmolSarmaCan I game on it?12:34
humphreybcAdvanced section? Not really :S12:34
nisshhof the manual i mean12:34
humphreybcYeah, near the end of the first half12:34
humphreybcWhat chapter could it fit into?12:34
tacantaraGames would take us into WINE, and that's more of an advanced topic12:34
dutchieOK, I'm off for lunch12:34
humphreybcI like having 10 chapters as a nice easy number12:34
AnmolSarmaA couple of 'serious' games for linux12:34
humphreybcWell we sort of decided that we need something on Wine12:34
humphreybcdutchie: Okay, see you later. Thanks for coming12:34
jamindayperhaps wine should go in useful apps section12:34
humphreybcI agree12:35
jamindaychapter 912:35
humphreybcOkay cool12:35
AnmolSarmaI was thinking native linux games12:35
humphreybcand somewhere in the first half we need to allude to wine12:35
humphreybcnative linux games, hmm chapter 9 again, or even chapter 412:35
humphreybcJust mention they've available in the Software Center12:35
humphreybcthat sort of thing12:35
jamindaywith a link to a good website12:35
humphreybcMake it clear there ARE games for linux12:36
humphreybccontrary to popular opinion12:36
humphreybcbut it's not really a manual on gaming12:36
humphreybcso an introduction, allusion to chapter 9 where we have some detail on wine, that's about it really for games12:36
AnmolSarmaA list of sorts maybe12:36
nisshhOk, iv got to go now too, humphreybc can you remember to post the details of the next meeting somewhere?12:36
humphreybcnisshh: Yep it'll be on the wiki12:36
nisshhand cya later12:36
humphreybcthanks for coming12:36
nisshhok cool12:37
humphreybcwe could have like the authors' picks of 5 games or something12:37
KelvinGardinerwe can link to playdeb12:37
humphreybcI often end up googling "top ten linux games" because I don't know if any are serious or just crappy 2D12:37
humphreybcYep sure thing12:37
humphreybcokay, any other questions/comments?12:37
jamindayjust found this http://gwos.org/doku.php/games:start don't know if it's any good12:38
humphreybcworth looking into some more12:38
humphreybcOkay, so time/date for next meeting12:38
jamindayKelvinGardiner: or mention playonlinux12:38
humphreybcWe'll need one in about 3 weeks to basically check how our progress is going with the chapter conten12:39
jamindaythis time of day works well for me12:39
humphreybcUnless you guys are keen for weekly meetings? If we're on such a tight schedule this could be a good idea12:39
jmburgesshumphreybc: weekly meetings work for me12:39
humphreybcI don't mind having weekly meetings on a Saturday, but we do need to set a time. I don't finish work till about 1030 UTC12:40
jmburgessI mean do we want to try it and if we can't come up with anything then we can switch to less often12:40
jmburgess11UTC works for me12:40
humphreybcOf course, future meetings will be way shorter12:40
jmburgesshopefully :)12:40
jamindayi could attend fortnightly at 11utc12:40
KelvinGardinerSunday is better for me. I can only do every other Saturday.12:40
AnmolSarma1100UTC is good for me12:40
tacantaraWeekly "briefs" with a good, comprehensive meeting once a month?12:40
tacantaraThe 1100 UTC is a good fit for me12:41
humphreybctacantara: Yeah optional briefs12:41
humphreybcokay weekly optional briefs each week, at 1100 UTC either Saturday or Sunday (which one?) and then a big meeting once a month or something, or even just when we need it12:41
AnmolSarmaAnd a wiki post of waht transpired for those who could not attend ?12:41
humphreybcAnmolSarma - Yeah I can do that, or mailing list, probably both.12:42
KelvinGardinerAnmolSarma: the meeting will be in the Ubuntu logs.12:42
humphreybcGoing through 2 hours of logs is painful though12:42
humphreybcI can summarize12:42
humphreybcunless anyone else wants the job of note taker....12:42
humphreybcI'm happy to do it12:42
jmburgesshumphreybc: we can switch off if you would like12:43
jmburgesslike you write the notes for this one, Ill write the notes for the next one12:43
humphreybcOh sure, yeah okay sounds good12:44
humphreybcRighto, next meeting is optional brief, Saturday 9th January at 1100 UTC12:44
humphreybcNext "big" meeting (I won't call them compulsary!) is TBA12:44
KelvinGardinerI think the bot makes a summary of actions etc.12:44
humphreybcYeah except I haven't used the TOPIC tag12:45
humphreybcSummarizing is best I think12:45
MootBotMeeting finished at 06:45.12:45
humphreybc1:45 mins later.. phew12:45
tacantaraI've sat in Army staff meetings that ran longer and accomplished less LOL12:45
jamindaywell i'd better get going - night all12:46
humphreybcOkay guys, thanks for coming, I'll get onto that summary tomorrow, and make some changes to the wiki and launchpad stuff. As for the chapter order, we didn't really decide on much - but it's not important at the moment, we can shuffle chapters around later on12:46
humphreybcnight guys12:46
humphreybcoh just one quick thing12:46
humphreybcdon't forget to update your launchpad profiles with contact details :)12:46
jamindayno probs12:47
tacantarawill do12:47
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel

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