=== steemed is now known as st33med === asac_ is now known as asac [07:37] Testing [07:37] done [07:41] Ubuntu Manual [07:42] hey ya wassup? [07:42] every thing 5ne? [07:42] hai [07:42] no [07:42] 123 [07:42] 1234 [07:42] 12345 [07:42] 123456 [07:42] 12345678 [07:42] 11234567890- [07:42] 784trqhervnarglanmj [07:42] ;laksdnvljwnmf [07:43] ndvnknvmsdnnwnvnsffwhsd/sdilfhwnsdhfjha'owkknv .'ihlhwmnm,cnwhr [07:43] rpgnskn' [07:43] jsbdjbakwfjnbdjnvhsdukhvubsdvb,bsv,sdaw [07:43] jsbkaijasndnkadnfiaernnsdvbirhgsd;va [07:43] asdbv;aibhasd [07:43] sjbvak;ushgaw [07:43] ea [07:43] awh [07:43] aksdnvan [07:43] ga [07:43] wkvaS [07:43] v [07:43] agv [07:43] ahdaskdnva [07:43] oops!! [07:43] hai ya sup? [07:43] oops!! [07:43] yeiks!! [07:43] @@@@##$!#%#%^&%^&#$%@ [07:43] shhg'owqhe [07:44] jicky [07:44] kasbva;wehrsnkjdv [07:44] 'sldkh'ihjrf [07:44] lknbv'AWE [07:44] BNV [07:44] AWE [07:44] wegjoqwed [07:44] aw [07:44] rgkw [07:44] rgr [07:44] gl;rgiqrljqbdSN,fl;qwh'f [07:44] dkfjaiwerh'awef [07:44] djvh;awr [07:44] aw [07:44] aw [07:44] hjgawr [07:44] gawrgn [07:44] awrgajwrja [07:44] wrgjarjlgkaergk [07:44] asmvjajgkjasl;aerhjgEAFv [07:44] aer [07:44] glanfh [07:44] aergnFv [07:44] ara [07:44] gaj [07:44] awj [07:44] r [07:44] gjawqrgj;awlrmgjrgj [07:44] wfuck off!! [07:44] fuck off [08:04] * elky blinks. [10:50] Hello [10:51] gidday [10:51] blah i made that coffee far too weak [10:52] AnmolSarma: please ensure your language is family friendly, unlike earlier today [10:52] extememly sorry [10:53] that was not me [10:53] Oo are you getting into trouble O.o [10:53] humphreybc: I promoted the meeting on identica/twitter [10:53] hi popey, thanks a lot - are you on the mailing list? [10:54] not yet [10:54] no problems [10:54] here's the agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings [10:54] we're still a few minutes early so we'll give the others a few minutes to get here :) [10:55] kk [10:55] * issyl0 will be just watching :) [10:55] Good morning from GMT -5 (US East). [10:55] * brobostigon is also present [10:55] Hi there tacantara [10:55] Haha sorry to get you up so early! [10:55] It's just pressing on midnight down here in New Zealand [10:56] No problem...got plenty of coffee :) [10:56] so have I, only got home from work about half an hour ago [10:56] sweet looking like we've got a good turnout :) [10:57] popey: thanks for the identi.ca warning, I think I'll join you guys on this project [10:57] excellent [10:57] awesome, the project page is: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual [10:57] I'll just be lurking for now, am making lunch :) [10:57] and of course the team page is just https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual [10:57] cool cool [10:58] so 3 minutes, no rush [10:58] this must be one of the first meetings for 2010 [10:58] Good morning everyone [10:58] for those just joining us, here's the agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings [10:58] we've got quite a lot to get through :) [10:58] woops, need to change my nick [10:58] good morning joe === joe__ is now known as jmburges [10:59] Is Ryan Macnish here? [10:59] thats better, and good morning humphreybc [11:00] good evening over here :) [11:00] where are you located? [11:01] new zealand :) [11:01] GMT +13 [11:01] excellent, well in DC its 0600 [11:01] nice early start to your weekend :S [11:01] haha [11:01] late night [11:01] So are we missing Jamin Day and Ryan Macnish? [11:02] hmm, well i'll give them till 5 past and then kick off [11:02] ah cool here's Ryan [11:03] hello nisshh [11:03] hey [11:03] sorry im a bit late [11:03] no problems [11:03] we're just waiting till 5 past to see if we can catch Jamin Day [11:03] kk who else is here? [11:03] There's quite a few present, good turnout [11:04] cool === jmburges is now known as jmburgess [11:04] I'm back [11:04] beaut [11:04] what did i miss? [11:04] good [11:04] nothing [11:04] we're starting in 20 seconds :) [11:04] not much [11:04] ok [11:04] alright well, if everyone's happy, i'll start the meeting [11:04] #startmeeting [11:04] Meeting started at 05:04. The chair is humphreybc. [11:04] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [11:05] Okay so welcome everyone [11:05] in the mean time if you look iv uploaded some of chapter 7 to lp:ubuntu-manual [11:05] For those who haven't seen it yet, here's the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Meetings [11:05] oh awesome, I will have a look at that a bit later [11:05] so the first topic is the change to plain text [11:05] and added some stuff to the readme [11:06] neat [11:06] So I decided the other day to change from docbook to plain text [11:06] and you can see my justification here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Technical Details [11:06] what does everyone think of using plain text over docbook? [11:07] humphreybc: did you guys think of asciidoc? [11:07] Obviously it won't give us any formatting, but the plan is to leave the formatting to later [11:07] my first thought'd've been TeX to be honest [11:07] I think that down the road, it could lead to a lot of headaches with formatting [11:07] yeah I agree with dutchie on using TeX [11:07] nigel_nb and dutchie: I've actually had a couple of people email me suggesting some other alternatives [11:08] so by TeX you mean LaTeX? [11:08] its now 7 past, should we start or wait? [11:08] we've started :) [11:08] yeah, LaTeX [11:08] perhaps you've got serious lag or something nisshh [11:08] Okay well i'm unfamiliar with LaTeX - could you just run over the benefits of using LaTeX? [11:08] the ubuntu community learning project uses asciidoc, so just a suggestion [11:09] well, the formatting is built right in, it's mostly just plain text with a few \command{arg} bits [11:09] loads of packages to extend it as well [11:10] right, so compared to docbook, which uses HTML, how easy would it be for someone who doesn't know HTML to pick up and use? [11:10] and also to convert what we've got so far? [11:10] it also was made to do this sort of thing, it has packages for things like inserting highligted code [11:10] I've also had Pascal Bach email me suggesting Restructered Text, which I said I would bring up [11:10] Probably easier to convert than docbook [11:10] i do have lag [11:10] I'd say it's on a par for learning [11:10] but its gone [11:11] Okay [11:11] yes it is on par with learning html, if you have had no html experience but there are GUI latex writers [11:11] i like the plain text but i would like to know more about LaTeX [11:11] So what do you recommend for the game plan - convert current plain text to LaTeX asap, and then use that right through the milestones? I presume it can output to PDF etc [11:11] yeah, PDF is no problem at all [11:12] I think using LaTeX from day 0 is much easier than plain text then putting the formatting in later on [11:12] Okay, for converting what we've got, would you like to give me a hand with that next week, if we vote to switch to LaTeX? [11:12] i can easily help, it isn't too bad [11:12] Though we need to make and decide on a latex template to use [11:13] I'd be happy to invest some time, not going to have a huge amount of free time over the next few weeks though [11:13] it should not take much effort [11:13] My plan was just to use the plain text for content, and then basically copying/pasting the whole thing into an openoffice document to do formatting and images - then using different branches and series on LP to sort out the merging. [11:13] But if LaTeX is a viable alternative, i'd be happy to put my vote in for that. [11:14] Okay awesome, so it looks like we're switching to LaTeX. Would anyone who knows more than me (which is everyone!) like to update the relevant sections on the wiki with LaTeX information? [11:14] I would be happy to work on a document template, and maybe write up a brief how to [11:14] arrrr still getting lagg [11:14] jmburgess, that is awesome [11:14] nisshh - what client are you using? [11:14] irssi [11:14] yeah I will work on it today [11:14] try this http://webchat.freenode.net/ [11:14] what should i be using? [11:14] kk [11:14] jmburgess - would you like to take that under your wing, and i'll write up a blueprint for it after the meeting. What's your launchpad username? [11:15] humphreybc: Yep, I can do that, my launchpad username is joemburgess [11:15] Okay and you're a member of the team? [11:15] correct [11:15] So just before we end this topic, is everyone happy with the switch to LaTeX? [11:15] ok lag fixed for now [11:16] yes [11:16] Works for me. I'm not familiar with it, but there's a good LaTeX primer at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LaTeX [11:16] is Texmacs any good for latex? [11:16] so will we vote on latex [11:16] AnmolSarma: don't know, I use latex-suite for vim ;) [11:16] cool, so nisshh just to summarize if you've missed anything, we've decided to change to LaTeX and do away with plain text and ODT [11:16] ok with me too - will have to get up to speed but happy to do some reading [11:16] texmacs being a latex version of emacs? [11:17] jmburgess is going to help with converting the current plain text to LaTeX, and writing a short howto [11:17] once the template is set up I'll help out with the conversion [11:17] Okay so i'm just going to do a vote under MootBot, once I issue VOTE, then just use +1 or -1 to vote yes or no [11:17] [VOTE] Change to LaTeX [11:17] Please vote on: Change to LaTeX. [11:17] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [11:17] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [11:18] dutchie: Thanks, whats your launchpad username so I can email you or something [11:18] +1 [11:18] ok got it [11:18] +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [11:18] Private +1 vote received. 2 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [11:18] +1 [11:18] +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [11:18] +1 [11:18] +1 [11:18] +1 received from dutchie. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [11:18] +1 [11:18] +1 received from tacantara. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [11:18] +1 received from jaminday. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [11:18] jshholland [11:18] Private +1 vote received. 7 for, 0 against, 0 have abstained. Count is now 7 [11:18] +1 [11:18] +1 received from nigel_nb. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8 [11:18] +1 [11:18] +1 received from AnmolSarma. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9 [11:18] +1 [11:18] +1 received from nisshh. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10 [11:18] okay i think that's an overwhelming majority in favour :) [11:18] [ENDVOTE] [11:18] Final result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 10 [11:18] Fantastic, that's the first topic sorted out. :) [11:19] whats next? [11:19] Okay, so next topic: Sourcing Images [11:19] The agenda is a wee bit out of order sorry [11:19] but that's alright [11:19] so basically I put this in here so we can decide on what sort of images to use, where we're getting them from and whether we are going to create some custom diagrams or not [11:20] Obviously we'll need screenshots, although translating for screenshots will be an effort [11:20] A picture is worth a thousand words, and I think we need to have lots of screenshots - so maybe this translating problem might have to be dealt with. Thoughts? [11:20] well png is good for format [11:20] and png is good for latex as well [11:20] Yep png is pretty much a given [11:20] anyone in charge of translation yet? [11:21] Okay perfect [11:21] jmburgess: good [11:21] jaminday, no we haven't had much interest in translation so far :S [11:21] I agree with the use of more screenshots. As a fairly new user (still under 1 yr) I haven't found a manual with enough screenshots [11:21] nope no one [11:21] Unfortunately I'm not fluent enough in German to do any translations [11:21] witht the translations, I think we could have "partial translations" available where the text is but not the screenshots aren't [11:21] does anyone here speak a second (or more) language [11:22] sure, until at least we get enough interest for more people to help translate [11:22] I do [11:22] <_jbl_> I do: french, english, danish [11:22] I'm not sure we are going to get many translations out in time for Lucid [11:22] yeea [11:22] I mean, we are pressed for time just for the english version [11:22] <_jbl_> re screenshot translation issue: some sort of macro that translators can use to generate the same screenshot in their locale ? [11:22] So i think translations can be a goal for Lucid +1 and beyond [11:22] yes [11:22] agreed - perhaps english should be the focus initially then expand later? [11:22] jaminday - yes that's a good idea [11:22] but possibly for 10.10 [11:22] Exactly [11:23] we should probalbly leave the translating to the respective LoCos [11:23] we will need to do some recruiting [11:23] maybe not leave it to the LoCos, but coordinate with them [11:23] Sure, if you know anyone who helps translate other docs and has some spare time on their hands, point them our way [11:23] well yes coordinate with them [11:23] agreed [11:23] Once we do get the english version out for Lucid with much gusto, we should hopefully attract enough attention for some translators [11:23] agreed [11:24] it would be nice if we could get some ubuntu members with their feed aggregated to the planet to give us a shoutout *cough cough* [11:24] popey has already pimped the meeting on twitter [11:24] hehe [11:24] That's just a side note actually, if you do know anyone that has their blog on the planet, please send them the links to the project - I've already been talking with Jono Bacon and he's going to have a look next week hopefully [11:24] nice [11:25] We do need all the help we can get if we want this out in 4 months :) [11:25] yes true [11:25] Okay, so back on topic - screenshots are good, translating them we shall leave to the future for now. Someone needs to start sourcing images [11:25] throwing together basic diagrams in inkscape shouldn't be too hard [11:25] i can do screenshots via virtualbox once content is written... [11:25] Also, the images should really be taken from the Lucid Alpha [11:26] jaminday, that sounds great [11:26] goof [11:26] i'm running Lucid in VBox too [11:26] good [11:26] so we can coordinate on that [11:26] I'm running Lucid on a separate partition, so capturing screenshots shouldn't be too difficult [11:26] i will get lucid in vbox [11:26] Im running Lucid on a spare machine so screenshots can be pretty easily gotten, do we have a sort of, screenshots I need page? [11:27] jmburgess - fantastic idea! [11:27] I will write one up on the wiki tomorrow :) [11:27] i'm assuming screenshots should be taken from a 'vanilla' install to avoid reader confusion [11:27] Yes that would be best [11:27] ie default wallpapers/icons etc [11:27] jaminday: that makes the most sense to me [11:27] not yet [11:27] Of course we needn't worry about stuff too much yet, because Lucid is in Alpha only [11:27] and things will change [11:27] a lot [11:28] agreed - maybe something to be aware of as it gets closer to release perhaps [11:28] but we should make one for artist contribs [11:28] True....some of the Lucid branding hasn't made it in yet (check the Help page, still refers to it as Karmic) [11:28] So for now I'll start compiling our list - of course having the content will help some more. As another side note, does LaTeX have something like notes? [11:28] And the default wallpaper doesn't make an appearance till late Beta/RC normally [11:28] So this could get tight - we may have to wait for screenshots till the RC of the manual, I think that gives us two weeks before Lucid release [11:28] notes? like footnotes or comments? (it has both) [11:29] comments [11:29] yes thats what i was thinking [11:29] still compiling a list of 'screenshots needed' or something would help [11:29] So when we're writing things and the author feels an image would be good to complement his text, he should put in a "note/comment" that says "image of such and such should go here" [11:29] humphreybc: Yes It has comments [11:29] jaminday - yep I've noted that down, and I'll do that tomorrow. I'll churn through the Table of Contents thus far and pretty much start out [11:29] Also, feel free to add to/change the wiki page if you like [11:30] it autogenerates ToC as well [11:30] You don't have to ask me for permission or anything - just at the bottom in the section "comments" mark what you've changed :) [11:30] dutchie:good [11:30] ok [11:30] awesome - so that's screenshots, now onto diagrams/artist images - stuff that's uniquely created for this project. a) Do we want/need it, and b) where/who are we going to get it from? [11:31] If you screw the wiki page up you are responsible for reverting your changes though [11:31] nisshh - haha yes that's a good point, be careful :) [11:32] i think we may or may not need it, and we will probably be making them in the early editions [11:32] So for the artwork/diagrams - I can't actually think of much that we will need them for [11:32] If we grab images from, say, Google, is that considered in the public domain, or will there be problems with using images from sources like that? [11:32] Perhaps the odd icon or something every now and then where there is a big hunk of text to break it up would be nice [11:32] so it's not so full on [11:32] tacantara: you have to look at the individual focus [11:32] tacantara: I think we need to look into where it is hosted and such [11:32] focus? source [11:33] we may need a few but probably not many [11:33] For anything that's not Creative Commons, I believe you need to ask the owners permission [11:33] humphreybc - yes lots of pictures = less daunting [11:33] I'm sure most people will be stoked about their artwork going into a publication [11:33] for the average reader anyway [11:33] plus alot of google images are watermarked [11:33] you can get the icons from icon packs from gnome look etc. [11:33] that's true [11:34] good point [11:34] humphreybc: have we decided on a license for the manual? [11:34] there should be plenty of screenshots, I'm not sure about where we'll need diagrams [11:34] Okay, well for now I think that's pretty much covered - we can talk about that at the next meeting, when the content is in place [11:34] jmburgess : that's next on the agenda :) [11:34] It would be good to use the default Ubuntu icons fro tip boxes etc. [11:34] humphreybc: woops! your right [11:34] jmburgess: no worries [11:35] Okay so everyone happy with the images topic? Any further comments? [11:35] Sweet, moving on then - next on the agenda: Licensing of the manual [11:35] isn't the GPL pretty code-centric? shouldn't we be thinking more about the GFDL or maybe CC? [11:35] Now i know hardly anything about licensing [11:36] dutchie: exactly, see I know nothing :) [11:36] isnt CC for artwork and such? [11:36] that's just a placeholder really until we came to this meeting [11:36] I don't know much more [11:36] which version of cc ? [11:36] Someone emailed me a great link on open source documentation licensing [11:36] but i've lost it now [11:36] and what does GFDL stand for? [11:36] Is there anyone else in the room that knows a bit more about licensing? [11:36] Free Documentation Licence, either GNU or General [11:36] i know nothing... [11:37] wikipedia uses it [11:37] GNU [11:37] GNU? [11:37] okay [11:37] I know that CC is generally for written things as well [11:37] which version? GPL v3 or 4? [11:37] ah ok be worth looking into [11:37] The ubuntu documentation wiki is CC [11:37] right... I'll get in touch with some of the docs team and talk to them [11:37] GPL v4? [11:37] is it really? [11:37] there is a v4? [11:37] no [11:37] apparently [11:37] didnt know that [11:38] or is it 3? [11:38] v2 and 3? [11:38] CC is simple to understand, I'd say go for CC. [11:38] nope [11:38] no v4 yet [11:38] https://help.ubuntu.com/legal.html [11:38] CC it is then [11:38] I will confirm with the docs guys first though [11:38] CC has multiple variants [11:38] Which CC? [11:38] yeah exactly haha [11:38] see this [11:39] http://creativecommons.org/choose/ [11:39] LINK received: http://creativecommons.org/choose/ [11:39] there is a main one [11:39] interesting how mootBot didn't pick up the https... [11:39] They use ShareAlike which means you can do whatever as long as you share with the same license [11:39] humphreybc: good point [11:39] ah yes, best to talk to doc guy first but i am for CC [11:39] agreed [11:40] how about CC-GNU GPL [11:40] okay well it looks like it's CC something a rather, but i'll sort that out over the coming days and let everyone know via mailing list [11:40] AnmolSarma: That sounds like just about everything! :) [11:40] wikipedia is dual-licenced CC-BY-SA and GFDL [11:40]