[00:09] <amichair> fwiw, I recall annoying experiences with MSIE in RTL, where the back/forward buttons were indeed reversed. That is to say, that's how it is expected to be. And it's very annoying.
[00:11] <Riddell> ah, someone who actually knows about it :)
[00:11] <Riddell> amichair: you don't use KDE in Hebrew then?
[00:12] <amichair> hell no :-)
[00:12]  * ScottK was going to 'christen' amichair as the Kubuntu RTL expert but then realized that would be wrong on several levels.
[00:12] <shtylman> hahahaha
[00:12] <amichair> hehehe
[00:15] <amichair> ScottK: u usually seem very serious around here... you should make more funnies! :-D
[00:17] <seele_> ScottK make more funnies? that wouldnt be very ScottK-like hehe
[00:17] <seele_> ScottK: i think the next linux chix meeting is a spa world so unfortunately i dont think i can invite you ;P
[00:17]  * seele_ doesnt think she will go either
[00:17] <ScottK> I think I'm funnier in person than I am on IRC.
[00:18] <seele_> irc is all business, and you usually only see people you know/like in person so it's easier
[00:18] <Riddell> but preferably not in the area of comparing Abrahamic religions, that way social disaster awaits!
[00:18] <Riddell> seele_: ooh, any hot tub? :)
[00:18] <shtylman> I think ScottK is a comedian :)
[00:18] <seele_> Riddell: well it is a giant asian bath house so there is a giant hole filled with hot water
[00:19] <Riddell> hmm, maybe I should come to DC
[00:19] <seele_> Riddell: it's separated, not coed
[00:19] <shtylman> haha
[00:19] <seele_> and i thought you were already coming to DC
[00:19] <Riddell> depends if you'll have me :)
[00:20] <seele_> oh? since when am i putting you up? i thought you already made arrangements :P
[00:20] <DaskREEch> seele_: They have a single seperated hole?
[00:20] <DaskREEch> Sounds enlightened
[00:21] <amichair> ScottK: smileys to the rescue... if u say something with a smile, write it with a smile! it's as close as it gets to communicating attitude and not just words...
[00:22]  * ScottK thinks he's a couple of decades too old for lots of smileys.
[00:22] <amichair> 'lots' is relative :-)
[00:22] <shtylman> ScottK: never to old :) :) :) :) :) :D
[00:23] <al> putting smileys behind your jokes means you're either not confident about the joke or the audience :-)
[00:23] <al> (choose one)
[00:24] <amichair> in person, that's true. in e-communication, it's sometimes just hard to express tiny nuances of voice and gesture... so you're stuck with crude smileys
[00:25] <shtylman> al: what if your arn't confident about both?
[00:25] <shtylman> am I limited to just choose one?
[00:25] <al> then you're limited to this smiley :P
[00:25] <shtylman> noted :P
[00:26] <amichair> shtylman: was that supposed to be funny? can't tell!
[00:26] <shtylman> hahaha
[00:26] <shtylman> everything I say is supposed to be funny ... if it isn't I failed :(
[00:26] <shtylman> al: oooo what about the use of frowny faces?
[00:27] <al> i don't think i know frowny smileys
[00:27]  * DaskREEch laughs outargeously at shtylman's sad face
[00:28] <ScottK> :-(
[00:28] <amichair> al: you must be enlightened!
[00:28] <shtylman> thank you.. thank you.. im here all week
[00:29]  * Sput wonders if there is a "linux dude meeting" too
[00:29] <Sput> you know, at some bar where we can run around in underwear and drink beer and fart loudly
[00:29] <Sput> :)
[00:29] <ScottK> That's pretty much all of them
[00:30] <Sput> nah, there usually is the token girl preventing the men from forgetting all manners :(
[00:41] <Quintasan> Sput: why don't you start a one? :D
[00:41] <Quintasan> "Geek's Hideout" or something like this?
[00:41] <seele_> Sput: our "linux chix" group in DC is pretty progressive. men often show up to the meetings
[00:41]  * Quintasan still a minor though
[00:42] <nixternal> Sput: our LUG had that so-called "Token", but she ended up surprising us all, especially me, and I am a sailor
[00:42] <seele_> if it wasnt i wouldnt go.. i dont like uber feminism stuff
[00:43] <nixternal> I am with you seele_ on that...my cousin is an uber-feminist, but she is uber-everything she is involved with... vegan, and some other thing she is in to...I try to stay away as like my somewhat open mind
[00:43] <nixternal> as I like my somewhat open mind
[00:43] <seele_> nixternal: feminist AND vegan? i'm sorry.
[00:44]  * Sput has had too much exposure to feminism (the bad kind) lately
[00:44] <nixternal> she is hardcore feminist though, like I swear, she is one of their extermist
[00:44] <seele_> veganism is like vegetarianism + religion
[00:44] <nixternal> vegans don't bother me, most of my friends are vegans here in chicago
[00:44] <Sput> thank $deity there are a lot of open-minded, smart women in my vicinity.
[00:44] <seele_> ah, i have a few vegan friends and they are vegan nazis
[00:44] <ScottK> Sput: I've been to a DC linuxchix meeting.
[00:45] <nixternal> I will be nice and eat whatever they eat, but if any of them start shit, I will order a raw ass hamburger
[00:45] <seele_> ScottK: youve been to a few
[00:45] <Sput> hm, I didn't know vegans could survive in open air
[00:45] <ScottK> seele_: No, just one.  The others were KDE events.
[00:45] <ScottK> That and your birthday party.
[00:45] <seele_> ScottK: ah, they all blend together
[00:45] <seele_> maybe because most of them are at the pirate bar for one reason or another
[00:45] <Sput> nixternal: I have those nice pictures on my cell, showing my plate at a recent slaughter festival
[00:46] <nixternal> hehe
[00:46] <Riddell> I'd turn vegan just to wind up nixternal, but I'd miss honey too much
[00:46] <Sput> or whatever you call that in English where you get basically all parts of a pig in edible form
[00:46] <seele_> ScottK: although, i found a much better bar across the street from piratz and they have tater tots
[00:46] <nixternal> Riddell: haha, vegans don't bother me, it is as seele_ put it, vegan nazis
[00:46] <nixternal> I do the vegetarian thing from time-to-time
[00:46]  * ScottK was really bummed he had to drive home from the birthday party.
[00:47] <nixternal> as a matter of fact, at UDS Jaunty I was in my vegetarian mode
[00:47]  * Sput had a discussion with a militant veg* in some other channel recently, he tried talking me into ethics and morales
[00:47] <Sput> he refused to answer why plants should be worth less than animals though :(
[00:47] <ScottK> seele_: Really?  Maybe it won't be too scary for Elizabeth ....
[00:47] <Riddell> environmental arguments would work better I'd think
[00:47] <nixternal> any bar with tator tots is the win!
[00:48] <seele_> ScottK: yeah, it's just a typical pub. much better beer too
[00:48]  * ScottK used to know a guy who was a vegetarian.  It wasn't because he loved animals.  It was because he hated plants.
[00:48] <Riddell> what are tator tots?

[00:48] <seele_> Riddell: erm.. trying to remember the euro name for it
[00:48] <seele_> Riddell: kindof like fried mashed potato balls, whatever those are called
[00:48] <nixternal> Riddell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tater_Tots
[00:49] <Sput> ScottK: never having to drive home is one of the advantages of our public transportation here :)
[00:49] <seele_> Riddell: except the potatoes are dices instead of mashed and formed into blocks and then fried
[00:49] <Riddell> hash browns
[00:49] <nixternal> Riddell: right
[00:49] <nixternal> but all mushed together
[00:49] <ScottK> Riddell: Similar.  Mostly a different shape.
[00:49]  * Sput loves 24/7 train service in all areas of town
[00:49] <nixternal> Sput: you would love chicago then :)
[00:49] <seele_> Riddell: croquettes
[00:49] <Sput> nixternal: nah, I'm fine here :)
[00:50] <Riddell> seele_: naw those are all posh with little breadcrumbs and stuff
[00:50] <nixternal> seele_: croquettes are similar but different :)
[00:50] <Sput> seele_: not quite, at least not if I'm translating the word to German :)
[00:50] <nixternal> those are like potatoes and sometimes meat
[00:50] <seele_> nixternal: yeah, theyre like mashed potatoes instead of diced
[00:50] <nixternal> they are damn good nonetheless
[00:50] <seele_> nixternal: huh, never had meat ones.. i've only seen them listed as potatoes
[00:50] <seele_> oh, wp says crabcakes are considered croquettes
[00:51] <seele_> well then
[00:51] <Sput> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KrokettenalsBeilage.jpg  <-- German-style Kroketten
[00:51] <nixternal> oh my, crabcakes \o/
[00:51] <nixternal> that is about the only thing I miss from living out there
[00:51] <nixternal> or going to the gas station and getting a grocery bag full of steamed crabs
[00:52] <seele_> nixternal: almost all the crabs in the chesapeake are dead or growing 3rd claws so it wont be a maryland thing for much longer
[00:52] <nixternal> lol
[00:52] <ScottK> 3rd claw just means more to eat.
[00:52] <nixternal> hahahaha
[00:52] <Sput> ScottK: so does a cow.
[00:52] <seele_> lol
[00:52] <nixternal> seele_: BG&E killing the bay?
[00:53] <seele_> what's bg&e?
[00:53] <nixternal> baltimore gas & electric
[00:53] <ScottK> Baltimore Gas and Electric
[00:53] <seele_> ah, no
[00:53] <nixternal> at least that's what it was when I lived out there
[00:53] <nixternal> or the power plant in pg county
[00:53] <seele_> actually, i think theyve determined it is the farms that is the primary problem
[00:53] <ScottK> Pesky farmers insist on fertilzing their crops
[00:54] <seele_> fertilizer runoff is ruining the watch and changing the bio an ph levels so things that should grow wont grow and things that shouldnt grow are growing
[00:54] <nixternal> calvert cliffs
[00:54] <nixternal> ahh yeah, that was a big thing in southern md when i lived there
[00:54] <Sput> they should just all use Monsanto crops. Problem solved.
[00:54] <ScottK> nixternal: No, that warms the water in winter so marine life can flourish year round.
[00:54] <seele_> *water
[00:54] <amichair> smileys, funnies, tubs, parties, (vegans), yummies... what a great year! and it's only been 3 days!
[00:54] <nixternal> ScottK: haha, we used to swim in the outflow of calvert cliffs
[00:55] <nixternal> a) no jelly fish, and b) it was always warm
[00:55] <Sput> guh. jelly fish are the winners of our current water poisoning... and they'll probably come out on top of all the changes we cause in sea life :/
[00:57] <Sput> ah well, they have been around for 500 million years, so they're doing something right
[00:57] <nixternal> man, I just looked at Patuxent River NAS, my last duty station...seems it has changed quite a bit on google maps
[00:57] <nixternal> the burm to the firing range is still there though, but the range itself is gone
[01:01] <amichair> is there anyone here from outside us/uk/de?
[01:03]  * ScottK isn't sure how Riddell would answer that one.
[01:03] <ScottK> Not sure if he's willing to give that much acknowledgement to the English overlords.
[01:03] <shtylman> haha
[01:03] <ScottK> jussi01 is from .au, but lives in .fi
[01:05] <ScottK> txwikinger is from .de, but lives in .ca.
[01:05] <ScottK> rgreening is an actual .ca person
[01:05] <ScottK> Tm_T is in .fi
[01:05] <ScottK> Mamarok is from Switzerlan.
[01:05] <ScottK> d
[01:06] <ScottK> There are a number that are.
[01:06] <amichair> interesting
[01:06] <Riddell> we'll get our referendum this year, maybe, possibly
[01:08] <amichair> wonder why it's mostly the same countries. is it a social norm of giving? high enough pay to afford free-time contribution? too many cs students?
[01:09] <nixternal> heh, all I have is free-time, but with 0 pay :(
[01:09] <ScottK> A certain proficiency in English is also a requirement.
[01:10] <amichair> ScottK: good point. although most computer-literates have decent English, I'd guess...
[01:11] <dhillon-v10> nixternal, hi :) happy new year
[01:12] <nixternal> happy new year to you as well
[01:12] <dhillon-v10> nixternal, so how's it going
[01:13] <nixternal> amichair: you would be surprised...most of the people in our LUG here is very computer-literate, but horrid with english :)
[01:13] <shtylman> amichair: I would say it is more related to the technology of the environment around the person than any particular social norms
[01:13] <nixternal> a lot of Russians here in Chicago for CS I have noticed
[01:13] <shtylman> ScottK: do you think of people by their tld names ? :)
[01:13] <nixternal> dhillon-v10: it's going :)
[01:14] <amichair> shtylman: technology of the environment?
[01:14] <ScottK> shtylman: Depends.  Sometimes.  Sometimes I just hate typing more than I have to.
[01:14] <nixternal> and the Spaniards are starting to take over CS here, especially at UIC...they get a killer job out of school and then retreat back to Spain after making a couple million, like my good friend Roberto
[01:14] <shtylman> amichair: yea... places with high prevalence of technology are more likely to see people doing open source
[01:14] <shtylman> you have to be exposed to it first
[01:14] <ScottK> shtylman: I do read IRC in the voice of the person who's typing if I've met them in person.
[01:14] <nixternal> he was one of the head developers behind Motorola's Droid...once they released the product, he quit Motorola and moved back to Spain
[01:14] <shtylman> and that is likely to happen with places that are more developed
[01:15] <shtylman> and where you don't have to worry about just getting food and water
[01:15] <shtylman> I would say that free time figures a bit less into it... but obviously does play a major role overall
[01:15] <ScottK> nixternal: Clearly Motorola isn't exploiting their workers enough if he could do that.
[01:15] <Nightrose> amichair: not too long ago i read about exactly this and they came to the conclusion that people in those countriesare more likely to do volunteer work in a broad sense and therefor also a lot of them go into open source
[01:15] <amichair> shtylman: well I'm not talking about 3rd world countries...
[01:16] <nixternal> ScottK: oh he made a few mil then just took off
[01:16] <Nightrose> whereas it is rather uncommon in for example japan
[01:16] <amichair> Nightrose: did they cite a reason?
[01:16] <Nightrose> i don't remember tbh
[01:17] <amichair> I get the feeling it's a social/cultural thing to a large degree
[01:17] <Nightrose> yes
[01:18] <Nightrose> anyway - time to go to bed for me - nini :)
[01:18] <Riddell> night Nightrose
[01:18] <Nightrose> o/
[01:18] <amichair> night rose :-)
[01:19] <ScottK> Oh, right.  Nightrose is from .at.
[01:19] <ScottK> No, that was apachelogger. Sorry
[01:21] <amichair>  I tend to mix up at and au. took me a while to get used to ch/cn as well
[01:21] <nixternal> everyone here is from earth
[01:21] <nixternal> half the time I can't remember which country I am from, so don't expect me to remember what country you are from :)
[01:22] <amichair> nixternal: doesn't always seem like it :-)
[01:22] <ScottK> nixternal: Except sebas.  He's too beautiful to be a native.
[01:22] <nixternal> oh yeah, I am from Chicago, it is so great that it should be a country
[01:22] <nixternal> now that we got barack out of it...we just need to 'sudo apt-get --purge' a couple more politicians and we will be the win :)
[01:23] <ScottK> The list of ones to keep would be shorter.
[01:23] <Riddell> some people also confuse gb/uk, tsk
[01:23] <nixternal> ScottK: good point
[01:25] <amichair> holy begeezes! .gb is a real tld - I did not know that.
[01:26] <Riddell> blame ISO
[01:27] <Riddell> well I'm down to 75 unread e-mails, which isn't bad considering I started this evening with > 1500, time to snooze
[01:29] <amichair> night Riddell
[01:31] <Sput> amichair: so is .us, a little known fact :)
[01:32] <amichair> Sput: nah, that's pretty well known
[01:32] <Sput> I actually know very few .us sites I visit
[01:32] <Sput> most are still .com/.net/.org/.biz etc
[01:33] <ScottK> .us is not new at all.
[01:33] <amichair> Sput: sure, but then that is true worldwide
[01:33] <Sput> not new, but not very common L)
[01:33] <Sput> :)
[01:36] <amichair> welp, it's way past my bedtime
[01:36]  * amichair bids a wonderful night to people of all tlds
[01:44] <DaskREEch> nixternal: Isn't Chicago BECAUSE of politicians?
[01:54] <Quintasan> hmmm
[01:54] <Quintasan> anyone has problems with kvm?
[02:10] <Quintasan> bug #500218
[02:11] <Quintasan> can anyone reproduce this? So far nixternal and I experience this bug
[02:30] <DaskREEch> Ahmmm
[02:30] <DaskREEch> Does Konqueror use Nepomuk for history now or something?
[02:37] <ScottK> Quintasan: Karmic or Lucid?
[02:38] <Quintasan> ScottK: Karmic, running lucid guest, dhillon-v10 already told me what's going on and I'm going to learn running debugger etc. to provide him with stacktrace
[02:39] <ScottK> What did he tell you?
 Quintasan, I did see a conversation in the upstream kernel about glibc creating invalid pointers at the first available slot in the memory (0x0000000000e44b10) which is basically 0001 and its deleting the memory which causes it to crash, possible to run it from gdb
[02:40] <dhillon-v10> ScottK, it may be possible to find more info using gdb
[02:41] <Quintasan> oh well, that's me for realising he's here @_@
[02:41] <Quintasan> not realising even
[02:42] <ScottK> Quintasan: Is this it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eglibc/+bug/425723
[02:42] <Quintasan> ScottK: might be related but I can't say for sure
[02:43] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, alright let's try this out first: gdb -p 12456 where 12456 is the pid of qemu
[02:44] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, you have to start qemu first and then this command in a new tab maybe, then pass in the command that crashes qemu
[02:45] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: the problem is that running qemu does nothing and running the command is killing the qemu the next moment so I quiet don't know how to get the pid :/
[02:45] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, give me another moment, let me install qemu and try to see what I can do there :)
[02:49] <ScottK> Quintasan: If you are feeling adventurous, dgetlp http://launchpadlibrarian.net/37155676/eglibc_2.10.1-0ubuntu16.dsc will get you the source for the proposed eglibc fix for the bug I showed you.
[02:49] <ScottK> Don't blame me if it eats your computer though.
[02:52] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, alright so this is what I did, there are no debugging symbols (sorry) but we might be able to get something: in the first tab of terminal: qemu then in the second tab run ps -A and find the pid of qemu, then in the same tab run gdb -p <pid> then go back to qemu and pass your crashing command
[02:53] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, wait there are symbols, just a sec.
[02:53] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, sudo apt-get install libvirt0-dbg that's the symbols
[02:55] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: hmm, can I pass parameters only?
[02:56] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: you see, I'm running it like this -> kvm -m 512 -hda /home/quintasan/Sauce/kvm/lucid.img -usb -usbdevice tablet
[02:58] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: nvm, used set args
[02:59] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, alright so first install the symbols and I am guessing when you give that command qemu crashes ?
[02:59] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: http://pastebin.com/m53bc1878
[02:59] <Quintasan> yeah, I set the parameters then runned it again with "start"
[03:00] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, :) nicely done, give me another moment and then we can figure out what's causing the issue
[03:00] <ScottK> nixternal: Is the powerpc box turned on?
[03:02] <Zorael> What package should bugs affecting Solid be filed against? kdebase-workspace?
[03:05] <Zorael> (Thought I'd tag LP #362182 with it, since the Amarok crew says it just obeys Solid, and Solid doesn't do fuse mounts.)
[03:06] <ScottK> Zorael: You're much better off filing bugs like that at bugs.kde.org.
[03:07] <Quintasan1> hmm
[03:07] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, SIGABRT is signal number 6 which tells the program to abort and release the memory it occupied before, and as you can see the dbg thread (0x7ffff0a90910) was only a few blocks away from the one that crashed. Did kvm/qemu release a patch anytime soon
[03:07] <dhillon-v10> * s/any time soon/recently
[03:07] <Quintasan> I wonder
[03:08] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, let me check upstream :) it could be like a bug-fix or an optimization patch that causes this issue
[03:11] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, it says that parts of kvm are already present in the kernel, I don't think we had any kernel updates recently, did we?
[03:11] <Quintasan> In the past month I would say no
[03:11] <Quintasan> but I might have forgotten
[03:12] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, and that's when you started experiencing the crash right
[03:13] <Quintasan> last update is 07 December
[03:13] <Quintasan> hmm, that would be somewhere around
[03:14]  * Quintasan got himself together after xmas and new years parties and did some work
[03:14] <Quintasan> :P
[03:14] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, alright thanks for that info. I'll need a little more time to check what's going on
[03:15] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: sooo it would be good idea to look around and then backport or update the kernel?
[03:15] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: no problem, if you need more testing/breaking feel free to poke me
[03:16] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, don't know it could be another library/program installed on your computer that is doing it, sorry I am still looking for the source of this problem
[03:16] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, alright will do :)
[03:19] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, I cleaned the coffee :D
[03:20] <Quintasan> took you a while :P
[03:20]  * Quintasan hands cookies with some coffee to dhillon-v10
[03:20] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, I spilled it on the carpet so :)
[03:20] <Quintasan> I'm looking forward to breaking debian on KVM ;)
[03:25] <nixternal> ScottK: no it isn't, want me to turn it on for you?
[03:25] <nixternal> oh well, turned it on anyways, should be up in less than a minute
[03:25] <ScottK> nixternal: Yes please.  I love it when things get turned on by you
[03:26] <ScottK> ;-)
[03:26] <ScottK> Thanks
[03:26] <nixternal> haha, pervert!
[03:26] <nixternal> I was watching ricky gervais yet again
[03:28] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, mind if we continue tomorrow, I have to go eat dinner
[03:30] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: I'm afraid to be busy, it's sunday 04:30 here :D
[03:31] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan, alright I'll email you then when I find a solution/fix for this problem
[03:31] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: Thanks.
[03:32]  * ScottK is always tempted to as, "Do your parent know you are up so late?", but then realizes he knows the answer.
[03:32] <ScottK> as/ask
[03:33] <Quintasan> ScottK: Hmm, That's fairly interesting. What's the answer? :D
[03:33] <ScottK> I'm figuring the chances they know are low.
[03:33] <dhillon-v10> later guys, bye
[03:33] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: \o
[03:33] <ScottK> Or at least they pretend not to know.
[03:33] <ScottK> Because if the officially noticed, then they'd have to put a stop to it.
[03:34] <ScottK> That's my guess anyway.
[03:34] <Quintasan> ScottK: Oh well, my father know and I suppose if he knows then my mother knows as well. It's not like I'm sitting to this hour everyday
[03:34] <Quintasan> knows*
[03:34] <ScottK> OK.
[03:34] <ScottK> So maybe I don't know.
[03:35] <Quintasan> I just go and tell him that I will be staying up late cause I have to do $(something) and he doesn't mind
[03:36] <Quintasan> I also guess that up to this time $(something) was not trivial
[03:37] <Quintasan> Saying that I might go to bed as well.
[03:37] <ScottK> Sounds like you have a good relationship with your parents.
[03:37] <ScottK> Good night.
[03:44]  * ScottK notes Kubuntu Netbook made asiego's end of year KDE summary ....
[04:59] <seele_> AARRGGHH
[05:04] <DaskREEch> seele_: indeed
[05:13] <DaskREEch> seele_: what's up?
[05:19] <shtylman> our oxygen index.theme file is borked
[05:19] <shtylman> it is missing the 64/actions and 128/actions entries
[05:20] <shtylman> this is for lucid btw
[05:24] <shtylman> its fixed in kde svn trunk
[05:24] <shtylman> but just be on the lookout for any bug reports related to icon scaling
[05:29] <seele_> wtf how do i edit the TODO wiki page?
[05:29] <seele_> i click on edit and it gives me the TOC file
[05:29] <shtylman> did you go to the right todo page?
[05:29] <seele_> whatever is in the topic
[05:29] <shtylman> tisk tisk... someone didn't read? :)
[05:30] <shtylman> "Editing: Make edits at Kubuntu/Todo/Lucid"
[05:30] <shtylman> at the top of the todo page from the topic
[05:30] <seele_> oh. duh :)
[05:30] <shtylman> ;)
[05:35] <ScottK> shtylman: Usability bug.
[05:35] <shtylman> hahahhaha
[05:43] <seele_> DaskREEch: not much, about to go to bed
[05:46] <DaskREEch> seele_: That's a very impassioned to bed rally cry :)
[05:46] <DaskREEch> Well I shall follow suit
[05:47] <DaskREEch> AARRGGHH!
[05:52] <ScottK> Bed missing?
[06:25]  * ScottK how now read mail and knows what the argh was.
[06:26] <ScottK> how/has
[13:12] <amichair> JontheEchidna: howdy ho
[13:14] <amichair> JontheEchidna: any feedback/issues with kubuntu-notification-helper?
[13:22] <jussi01> amichair: any further thoughts on my menu system?
[13:23] <amichair> jussi01: only that u can use the mouse wheel to spin a circle around if u want to :-)
[13:24] <amichair> did u have any progress?
[13:26] <jussi01> amichair: no, havent had a chance to get back to it. However, while I can make mockups and gimp stuff, I still dont have coding skills
[13:26] <amichair> it's never too late to acquire them :-)
[13:27] <amichair> maybe u can post them here again (or in the dev list?), get some more feedback from others
[13:27] <jussi01> amichair: Ill be honest with you, i have a million things on my plate at the moments, so thats not going to happen (ie. the ircc, work, annoying people about bugs etc)
[13:28] <jussi01> amichair: yeah, I think I will tomorrow, might try to get a better mockup done first
[13:29] <amichair> and again, kudos for the innovation :-)
[13:31] <amichair> jussi01: I think for a search interface it may be problematic (seele had some good points), but for a fixed or small menu, it can be pretty neat
[14:24] <KOPRajs> where can I find what patches are being applied to sources before compiling packages in the repository?
[14:32] <ScottK> KOPRajs: For a core Kubuntu (KDE) package or in general?
[14:54] <JontheEchidna> amichair: I've not seen any so far. I think that I just need to get a second beta out there and get it on the alpha 2 CD
[14:55] <amichair> JontheEchidna: cool :-)
[14:55] <amichair> JontheEchidna: and how have you been?
[14:55] <JontheEchidna> pretty good. slept in this morningt
[14:56] <JontheEchidna> stayed up too late watching the last part of the Doctor Who special :x
[15:09] <Quintasan> @_@
[15:09]  * Quintasan yawn
[15:09] <Quintasan> +s
[15:10] <Quintasan> Hi by the way :P
[15:18] <KOPRajs> ScottK: right now I want to know what patches are applied to kwin in my stable Kubuntu 9.10
[15:19] <ScottK> KOPRajs: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdebase-workspace/ubuntu/files/head:/debian/patches/
[15:20] <mgraesslin> AFAIK there are no patches to kwin
[15:20] <ScottK> That's current Lucid.  You'll be able to see from the history what was there for Karmic.
[15:21] <KOPRajs> ScottK: ok, thank you very much
[15:22] <KOPRajs> mgraesslin: I just wanted to be sure since I cannot find any other reaseon why my kwin ignores UnredirectFullscreen option in kwinrc...
[15:38] <seele> i'm sick of feeding the troll.. where are the rest of the council members
[15:54] <shadeslayer> hi anyone here?
[16:04] <shadeslayer> oh well i just wanted to say that amarok lacks one of the build deps, libssl-dev,its not installed when one does : sudo apt-get build-dep amarok. ive reported a bug : https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/amarok/+bug/502627
[16:04] <shadeslayer> thanks :)
[16:13] <Lure> ScottK: around? have time to discuss debian-science merge?
[16:14] <shtylman> seele: but if you don't feed them... they starve :)
[16:15] <shtylman> then PETA might get involved
[16:19]  * jussi01 hugs seele. 
[16:56] <ScottK> Lure: I'll be around off and on most of the day.
[16:57] <Lure> ScottK: ok: quick question - did you run make dist when doing merge (as it messes the things for me) or did you just manual edit also autogenerated files (like debian/control)
[16:57] <ScottK> Lure: IIRC I just edited debian/control.
[16:57] <Lure> ScottK: problem is that make dist on lucid messes the control file, making large diff
[16:58] <Lure> ScottK: ok, I thought it might be that - I will then do the same, just to leave the delta to debian to minimum
[16:58] <ScottK> If it's automatic, size isn't necessarily a problem.
[16:58] <ScottK> The trick is if it has to be maintained somehow
[16:58] <Lure> it might be that debian also did not run make dist for some time ;-)
[16:59] <Lure> ScottK: the diff is huge and some changes would make it very different than debian package
[16:59] <ScottK> Then perhaps not.
[16:59] <Lure> ScottK: this is why I even suspect that Debian did not run make dist recently (but just edited control)
[16:59] <ScottK> Right.  I can see that.
[17:00] <Lure> I will test build and install my merged package now and if I do not get any showstoppers dueitn test installs, will upload
[17:29] <ScottK> Nightrose and Mamarok: The eglibc update for your favorite bug is in karmic-proposed and needs testers to try it and say it works in the bug.  See Bug 425723
[17:29] <Nightrose> thx ScottK
[17:29] <Nightrose> you rock
[17:29] <ScottK> You're welcome.
[17:50] <Lure> ScottK: this might be also the cause of bug 497562
[17:50] <ScottK> Interesting.
[17:52] <Lure> ScottK: digikam is failing with same "free(): invalid pointer" and it is again with kde 4.4 beta packages
[17:52] <Lure> ScottK: have asked reporter to test with karmic-proposed packages
[17:52] <ScottK> Lure: That's what I was about to suggest.
[17:58] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Is quassel on the list of packages you can upload?
[17:59] <JontheEchidna> probably. let me check
[17:59] <JontheEchidna> yeah
[18:01] <ScottK> There's a patch to do a double build and produce both -qt and -kde packages.  If I sponsor it, I can't New it.  Would you mind having a look (I did not review this version of the change, so it needs an actual review)?
[18:03] <JontheEchidna> I'll take a look once I get this amarok merge squared away
[18:04] <ScottK> Thanks.
[18:12] <shtylman> ScottK: I made a deb package for my ubuntu assistant :)
[18:12] <shtylman> I feel accomplished
[18:13] <ScottK> Nice
[18:29] <shtylman> so how best do you think it would be for users to discover the ubuntu assistant?
[18:30] <shtylman> the help menu?
[18:30] <shtylman> or someplace else?
[18:30] <shtylman> maybe as a default desktop icon?
[18:38] <ScottK> I'd think in the help menu
[18:42] <shtylman> is the help menu something we can patch kde to add an item to?
[18:42] <shtylman> I guess it should also go into the kmenu somewhere as well
[18:42] <shtylman> for non-kde apps
[18:44] <jussi01> shtylman: just what is this "ubuntu-assistant"
[18:45] <shtylman> jussi01: http://www.shtylman.com/archives/154
[18:45] <shtylman> basically... the idea is to give new users a central go-to point for help
[18:45] <shtylman> and from there, they can look for the help they need
[18:53] <jussi01> shtylman: Im a little concerned. what does the bot do? does it have any out put in the said channel? how are you deciding which channel the user goes to?
[18:53] <shtylman> the bot is the one that posts the question to the channel
[18:54] <shtylman> most likely the bot will post to the main channels (ubuntu, kubuntu)
[18:54] <shtylman> the bot also does the logging of the session
[18:54] <jussi01> shtylman: so, potentially, when we have a 100 people on at once, we will have the bot posting 100 different questions?
[18:55] <shtylman> jussi01: yes, but it only post the question once
[18:55] <jussi01> What happens when the user becomes abusive? (which some do), do we ban the bot? how do we stop abuse?
[18:55] <shtylman> abusive?
[18:55] <shtylman> oh.. no the bot doesn't post in the main channel all the time
[18:55] <shtylman> it only post the question in the main channel
[18:56] <jussi01> shtylman: as you no doubt have noticed, some peole like to attempt to disrupt.
[18:56] <shtylman> it then makes a temp channel
[18:56] <shtylman> where that user can be helped independently of all others
[18:56] <jussi01> shtylman: well that breaks half the benefit of #ubuntu
[18:56] <shtylman> jussi01: the point is that IRC can be hard for new users
[18:57] <shtylman> and #ubuntu can be hard to follow
[18:57] <jussi01> yes
[18:57] <jussi01> shtylman: Have you read the #ubuntu is too noisy to be useful bug?
[18:57] <shtylman> a user with a problem isn't gonna want to sit through that..
[18:57] <shtylman> jussi01: nope
[18:58] <jussi01> bug #392799
[18:58] <shtylman> the main point is that a new user doesn't want to deal with IRC and it is overkill to solve their problem
[18:59] <jussi01> shtylman: So let me probe a little further
[18:59] <jussi01> shtylman: What happens once this independant channel is created?
[18:59] <shtylman> from the user's perspective its a peer to peer chat they are unaware it is IRC underneath
[19:00] <shtylman> in the main channel.. the question is posted
[19:00] <shtylman> with a link to the new channel
[19:00] <shtylman> anyone who wants to help can join that channel
[19:00] <jussi01> shtylman: so we then have potentially hundreds of totally unregulated channels.
[19:01] <shtylman> jussi01: yes...
[19:01] <jussi01> shtylman: with users giving out advice that coud be totally suspect
[19:01] <shtylman> um... yes...
[19:01] <shtylman> as opposed to what happens now?
[19:01] <shtylman> there will be a "report abuse" option
[19:01] <shtylman> but yea...
[19:01] <shtylman> the transcripts can be reviewed
[19:01] <jussi01> shtylman: do you realise the amount of people we have giving sudo rm... out?
[19:02] <jussi01> shtylman: thats little help when the hdd is dead
[19:02] <jussi01> erased
[19:02] <shtylman> jussi01: while I realize that may be an issue.... it really isn't different than a user going onto the forums
[19:02] <shtylman> or googling for random stuff and trying that
[19:03] <jussi01> shtylman: we put a lot of time and effort into making our irc channels safe for users.
[19:03] <jussi01> I really odnt want to see that undoe
[19:03] <jussi01> undone
[19:03] <shtylman> well... these temp channels arn't meant to stay around...
[19:04] <shtylman> also... its the same users that are in your main channels
[19:04] <jussi01> However, if you want to create the one to one chat "feel", why not just have a irc client that ignores _evverything_ except highlights of the users name?
[19:06] <jussi01> shtylman: I understand what you are trying to create, and beleive me, we have been trying to create a better #ubuntu experience for a long time. However, I would be very opposed to creating a load of unregistered, unregulated temporary channels.
[19:06] <shtylman> but just dumping stuff in one main channel like that
[19:06] <jussi01> shtylman: I highly recomend a good read of the bug
[19:06] <shtylman> still makes it annoying for others to help that one user
[19:07] <shtylman> also... how does that users post go to the right people in that massive channel?
[19:07] <jussi01> shtylman: well slightly, but most of the helpers are able to cope with #ubuntu.
[19:07] <jussi01> shtylman: have you looked at #ubuntu-meta before?
[19:07] <jussi01> its very useful if you want to help ;)
[19:10] <shtylman> jussi01: ubuntu meta might be nice for the helpers
[19:10] <shtylman> jussi01: but all of this still ignores the end user
[19:10] <shtylman> who doesn't care at all about IRC
[19:10] <jussi01> shtylman: yes, it is
[19:10] <shtylman> the helpers can still use meta
[19:10] <shtylman> it doesn't do away with that
[19:10] <jussi01> shtylman: so, as I said, create an irc client that only shows highlights
[19:10] <shtylman> yea.. and there are problems with that
[19:11] <shtylman> going from the main chat to the user isn't as bad
[19:11] <shtylman> but going from the user to all the people helping him is
[19:11] <shtylman> likewise...it becomes more annoying to log the individual "threads"
[19:12] <jussi01> shtylman: But please! make sure you work with us ops and IRC Council. we are the ones responsible for making ubuntu's irc sphere a safe, hospitable place.
[19:12] <jussi01> shtylman: if you move the conversation to PM, or another channel, you lose a lot of the learning many of the helpers take
[19:12] <shtylman> jussi01: I agree... I don't want to circumvent anyone... but do see it from the point of view of a new user... who has no idea what to do
[19:13] <shtylman> IRC sucks for them
[19:13] <shtylman> the helpers can all join the channel to watch
[19:13] <shtylman> they can also read the transcripts
[19:13] <shtylman> and the conversations are then searchable
[19:13] <shtylman> for users that might come back with similar problems
[19:13] <shtylman> right now... anything that is sent to the tome of #ubuntu is basically lost
[19:14] <jussi01> shtylman: I disagree
[19:14] <shtylman> its much harder to search for problem A and see the solution
[19:14] <shtylman> and this doesn't even cover discoverability
[19:14] <jussi01> shtylman: discoverability isnt the issue here.
[19:15] <jussi01> there are a million and one things we can do re: discoverability
[19:15] <jussi01> shtylman: so, lets be constructive here.
[19:15] <shtylman> I do agree the oversight is something to consider
[19:15] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: quassell all checks out; uploading it now
[19:17] <shtylman> the main point I have is that IRC is hard for new users... and not just hard from a technology sense... hard from a keeping track of it.. and using it
[19:17] <shtylman> it provides much more than what a user needs/wants when they have a problem
[19:17] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: if you feel like NEW'ing things, k3b and webkitkde could use a push through NEW queue too. It would be much appreciated
[19:17] <JontheEchidna> bbl
[19:17] <shtylman> they want a person to address their need... withouth shifting through tons of other stuff... and just give them some quick guidance
[19:17] <jussi01> if we forget about the helpers for a moment, and think of new user A. A needs help with $problem. he opens $chat-client which you created, sees a little welcome message that tells him how to ask, and some links. He then types his question: How do I fix $problem? someone replies with A: go do, this, this and this. A does so, it works and he logs out.
[19:17] <shtylman> I don't deny there are issues to work out
[19:18] <jussi01> thats what you are after, correct?
[19:18] <shtylman> indeed... I have a working implementation if you care to try it at some point
[19:18] <shtylman> it does basically just that
[19:18] <jussi01> shtylman: what I want to ask, is why does this not work with a highlights only client?
[19:19] <shtylman> jussi01: it can work with highlights going _to_ the user... but the bigger issue I see is highlights coming _from_ the user
[19:19] <shtylman> I have nothing against highlight chats
[19:19] <shtylman> I just think even the helpers will enjoy having the chat topic easier to follow
[19:20] <shtylman> consider how crazy it will become if one helper starts helping multiple people
[19:20] <jussi01> shtylman: which is where #ubuntu-meta comes in, to ensure the helpers see the issues
[19:20] <shtylman> (that there is a technocal challenge for the log bot)
[19:20] <shtylman> right... but once they see the issues ... then what?
[19:20] <shtylman> we still want to communicate effectively to the user
[19:20] <shtylman> and also log the individual topics
[19:20] <shtylman> ^ this is important for what I am trying to do
[19:21]  * jussi01 wishes he had been approached with this at UDS...
[19:21] <shtylman> so if I can reliably solve those problems with highlight only chat...I would... but I didn't see a reason to initially... it was much simpler without it... but nothing is set in stone
[19:21] <shtylman> jussi01: I had a sessiono on it
[19:21] <shtylman> *session
[19:21] <jussi01> o.O
[19:21] <shtylman> and we discussed things about the idea and whatnot
[19:21]  * jussi01 is not happy he missed it
[19:22] <shtylman> :(
[19:22] <shtylman> I tried to spread the word
[19:22] <shtylman> but you know how UDS is
[19:22] <shtylman> jussi01: do you want to try the sample implementation?
[19:22] <shtylman> I don't deny there is much work to be done
[19:22] <jussi01> shtylman: you currently have a bot in #ubuntu?
[19:23] <shtylman> no
[19:23] <jussi01> ok, great
[19:23] <shtylman> never without permission first
[19:23] <shtylman> I always run the bot in a test channel
[19:23] <jussi01> sure
[19:24] <jussi01> shtylman: so how do I try this then?
[19:24] <shtylman> jussi01: lp:ubuntu-assistant
[19:25] <shtylman> grab the code from there
[19:25] <jussi01> are there .debs there?
[19:25] <shtylman> and I can walk you through it
[19:25] <shtylman> nope
[19:25] <shtylman> its all python
[19:25] <shtylman> you can just run it locally
[19:25] <jussi01> shtylman: ok, remind me the simple way to get code from there?
[19:25] <shtylman> bzr branch lp:ubuntu-assistant
[19:26] <shtylman> that command should do it
[19:27] <shtylman> once you have the source
[19:27] <jussi01> Ive got it
[19:27] <jussi01> then?
[19:28] <shtylman> go into the clients directory in the source tree
[19:28] <shtylman> and run "./ubuntu-assistant qt"
[19:28] <jussi01> shtylman: could you PM me the test channel names so I can join with this client?
[19:28] <shtylman> you don't join with that client
[19:28] <shtylman> the test channel is #live_assistant_channel
[19:28] <jussi01> shtylman: I want to see from the helper side
[19:28] <shtylman> ahh right :)
[19:29] <shtylman> also... you will need python-irclib as a dependency for the client... iirc
[19:29] <shtylman> it should complain about that if you try to run it without it...
[19:29] <jussi01> nah, its running
[19:29] <shtylman> k
[19:29] <shtylman> and no errors?
[19:30] <shtylman> maybe you already had it...
[19:30] <shtylman> anyhow... yea..
[19:32]  * jussi01 has a lot of strange things ;)
[19:32] <shtylman> haha
[19:32] <shtylman> did it crash for you?
[19:32] <jussi01> no, I exited
[19:33] <shtylman> ahh ok
[19:33] <shtylman> anyhow... you get the general idea
[19:33] <shtylman> I also plan to have bots that search answers and forums and return relevant results
[19:33] <shtylman> I figure that is useful while the user waits
[19:33] <shtylman> basically... I want it... in the end... to be the one stop help area
[19:34] <shtylman> evne if a user doesn't want live assistance they can know where to go to get more info and branch out from there...
[19:34] <shtylman> *even
[19:34] <jussi01> shtylman: Really, I would hate to see that implementation put out there. nothing against you, but you really need to read that bug, and have a chat to us who deal with ubuntu irc
[19:34] <shtylman> but there are still many kinks to work out
[19:34] <shtylman> jussi01: no offense taken... :)
[19:35] <shtylman> I will gladly have a chat with people who deal with it
[19:35] <shtylman> but I also keep an open mind about it
[19:35] <shtylman> and not ness caring about always sticking to the norm
[19:35] <shtylman> sometimes you gotta just try new things
[19:35] <jussi01> shtylman: if you want to have a chat to the IRC council, feel free to drop in and have a word in #ubuntu-irc-council
[19:35] <shtylman> k
[19:36] <shtylman> any particular time is good?
[19:36] <shtylman> also...part of this isn't that it is meant to be IRC only
[19:36] <shtylman> the backend can be torn out and moved off irc
[19:36] <jussi01> shtylman: I agree, but sometimes, its like trying new things with a traffic management system, if you get it wrong, its gonna break a lot moe things...
[19:36] <shtylman> the reason I picked IRC was that there are lots of "helpers" who have already opted in
[19:36] <shtylman> and I didn't want them to learn something new
[19:36] <shtylman> but for new users... learning IRC can be overkill
[19:37] <shtylman> jussi01: yea... I don't frown upon talking about it...
[19:37] <shtylman> but I also don't want to talk it to death :) ... sometimes simple prototypes in the wild do much more than any single conversation ever can
[19:37] <jussi01> shtylman: irc council members reside in EU (UK 1, FI 2) and america (not sure, Nhandler and pici), pick a TZ...
[19:37] <shtylman> heh
[19:39] <jussi01> shtylman: also, onething while you are testing, you may want to use ## channels as freenodemay get grumbly as #channels are for registered projects.
[19:39] <jussi01> shtylman: this session, was it under the community track? or?
[19:40] <shtylman> um...
[19:40] <shtylman> desktop maybe? or qa?
[19:40] <shtylman> not community iirc
[19:40] <shtylman> ahh... I didn't know about ## channels
[19:40] <jussi01> thats probably why I missed it. probably should have been community
[19:41] <shtylman> maybe... it was desktop oriented... and all I really know is desktop :)
[19:41] <jussi01> argh, looks like gobbby.ubuntu.com is down... do you have the gobby doc by anychance?
[19:41] <shtylman> but yea... it touches on lots of things
[19:42] <shtylman> jussi01: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopLiveAssistant
[19:42] <shtylman> gobby notes at the bottom
[19:46] <jussi01> shtylman: do you remeber who was there? were there many?
[19:46] <shtylman> yea
[19:46] <shtylman> there were quite a few people
[19:46] <shtylman> some of them subscribed to the blueprint
[19:46] <shtylman> so you could look at those names
[19:46] <jussi01> got a link for that?
[19:47] <shtylman> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-liveassistant
[19:52] <emma> unquery
[20:29] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Let me see what I have time to look at ....
[21:15] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: All done.  Thanks.
[21:27] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Up for something else I need help on ....
[21:50] <ScottK> Riddell: If you could use your handy dandy kde l10n upload script to reupload 4.3.4 translations to karmic-backports, that would be lovely.
[23:31] <Lure> Riddell, ScottK: can somebody review/ack my proposed exiv2 sync+transition: bug 502565
[23:32] <Lure> I would need ack from core-dev, before subscribing ubuntu-archive for sync request
[23:34] <ScottK> Lure: Yes.  I'm in the middle of something, so I can't look.  You can also subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors ...
[23:38] <Lure> ScottK: ok, thanks
[23:39] <Lure> ScottK: I have to hit bed anyhow and I am in no big hurry ;-)