/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/01/03/#ubuntu-devel.txt

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lamontgeser: interesting - I could have sworn I nuked apport after it blissfully uploaded sensitive info the last time I was stupid enough to run it03:46
lamontso yeah, no .crash file - firefox is to $something to actually leave one of those lying around for me.03:47
lamontOTOH, -dbgsym isn't too hard to figure out, either03:47
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ebroderSo...what and to whom do I have to sacrifice to see a new version of LVM pulled into lucid? cjwatson? :)04:23
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ScottKbdrung_: New lintian release.  You ought to update for that in any case.06:26
* ogra wonders if non english README and Changelog files are allowed in a package 08:35
* ogra tries to package some SW that only has german files 08:35
aburchogra: Why not? (For example `anthy' has mostly Japanese documentation)08:39
ogragreat, i suspected it but i wasnt sure08:39
aburch(though anthy is not really useful if you don't understand any Japanese)08:40
ograwell, the software i package is for hardware only available in german speaking countries atm08:48
ograso its not much different08:48
DrSykWhich channel should I use for discussion of app development on Ubu?10:28
alkisglibsdl1.2debian-alsa is an ubuntu-desktop task package. Can it be substituted by libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio, so that sdl sound isn't by default broken in Ubuntu? Unfortunately, libsdl1.2debian-alsa is in main, and libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio is in universe, so the latter would need to be included in main as well.11:16
verb3kPlease someone upgrade libfribidi to the 0.19, it's very very old in the repositories. See here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fribidi/+bug/19124111:56
ubottuUbuntu bug 191241 in fribidi "New upstream version 0.19.1" [Wishlist,Confirmed]11:56
verb3kis this the right place to ask for this?11:59
verb3kthis package affects mplayer and VLC12:00
persiaverb3k: The right place to ask is the bug report12:08
verb3kthe bug report has been open since 200812:08
persiaTrue, but that doesn't make asking here best.  That package hasn't been modified in Ubuntu before, and appears to be languishing in Debian as well.12:09
verb3kso, all people affected by this bug should comment on the bug and say what?12:10
persiaHrm.  That's the tricky bit.  While our channel and support policies don't mandate an upgrade, I'm not sure that more comments in the report would make much difference wither.12:11
verb3kunless we bug someone with some sort of deciding power, nothing is likely to change12:12
persiaWell, one way to address it would be to prepare an update of the package and submit to a sponsor for uploading.12:12
persiaWhat the bug needs is someone to do the development work, rather than someone to point it out again.12:13
verb3kI am no dev, but I can tell it's not much work12:13
persiaIndeed: the work is usually more in tracking the changes and keeping something modified from Debian up-to-date, on an ongoing basis.12:14
verb3kand I can't do it because I don't have packaging exp12:14
persiahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#Updating%20an%20Ubuntu%20Package has some instructions on how one might update a package.12:14
persiaAnd https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess discusses how to get the results uploaded.12:15
persiaBut your best options are either to wait for someone else to do it or do it yourself.12:16
verb3kThanks persia, hope for some results after I try this12:16
persiaverb3k: Best of luck.  From the bug report, it looks like it would improve the experience for a number of users.12:16
verb3kbeen messing around with libfibidi 0.19.2, I don't think I will get it updated in Lucid without some help from an experienced packager13:23
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persiaverb3k: What seems to be the issue?13:32
verb3kI was digging in the guides you linked and I found out that I can't easily do it myself, the only option is to ask someone with experience to do it13:33
persiaDid you get stuck trying to do it?13:33
verb3ksort of13:33
persiaOn which part?13:34
verb3keven if I can make a proper package I will still be skeptical if it is to be in main13:34
verb3kit has to be done by a real packager13:34
persiaWhy?13:34
verb3kI'm a layman13:34
persiaSo?  Many of the people who work on packages in Ubuntu would describe themselves that way when the started.13:35
persiaDid you try the update?  Did it work?  Did something go wrong?13:35
verb3kSince libfribidi is a library, it comes with other dependencies like -dev stuff which also need to be packaged, but the examples show a single and simple packaging of a single program, that's why I think I won't be able to do it with my limited knowledge13:38
persiaverb3k: Ah, I understand.  Someone appears to have produced a .deb in the bug report: perhaps they may be willing to help provide an update.13:39
verb3kHow about you helping out?  :)13:40
persiaI'm just heading to bed.  I could help some, but like you, I can't upload it :)13:41
verb3kwell then, I will bug you tomorrow :D13:41
verb3kseriously, a lot of users will be grateful for anyone fixing this13:42
persiaTomorrow is tight for me, but I might be able to look at it later in the week.  That said, I do suspect you'd get a faster response by asking the person who already updated it to 0.20 (in the bug report) to submit source.13:42
verb3kI'll try that to13:42
verb3ktoo*13:43
verb3kApparently he's only registered in LP to post that deb, after that he's inactive. (I can tell from his account information)13:45
verb3kand no email is provided13:45
verb3kIs anyone willing to help update a very, very outdated package in Lucid? libfribidi13:50
verb3kthe ubuntu repo version is 0.10. Fedora has already updated to 0.19.2 without any issues13:50
ari-tczewtalk to Debian maintainer13:51
verb3kThere has been a bug report about it since 2008: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fribidi/+bug/19124113:51
ubottuUbuntu bug 191241 in fribidi "New upstream version 0.19.1" [Wishlist,Confirmed]13:51
verb3kDo you refer me to a specific person?13:51
verb3kari-tczew, is it that ubuntu can't update a library if Debian doesn't?13:52
ari-tczewubuntu can update it, of course13:54
porthoseverb3k, from the debian bug report it appears that the debian maintainer is looking for some help with the package, maybe he would be willing to take you under his wing and show you the ropes13:55
ari-tczewverb3k, there are maintainers: http://packages.debian.org/sid/libfribidi-dev13:55
ari-tczewif you mean that I can help, you're wrong, I don't have time13:56
verb3kI sure would like to do it myself, but I don't have the knowledge/experience to do so13:57
ari-tczewit's good reason to learn13:57
verb3kthat's why I am asking for people's help13:57
verb3kI can't even package a simple script, let alone a "main" library with dependencies and such, that wouldn't be possible for a layman13:59
verb3kit has to be taken care of by a professional13:59
ari-tczewwe have a lot of information on wiki.ubuntu.com and there are manpages13:59
verb3khow about contacting DH? maybe he can help14:02
ari-tczewverb3k, are you mean about dholbach?14:03
verb3kyes14:03
ari-tczewdunno, ask him by e-mail14:04
verb3kI think I'll do that14:04
verb3kMan he's got like 10 emails :D which one should I mail14:05
ari-tczewI think that on first field14:07
ari-tczewHowever, I guess that dholbach has integrated all emails14:08
verb3kthanks ari-tczew, hope he'll help14:09
* alkisg wonders why gimp is still in the lucid live iso (not that I'm complaining): http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu.lucid/desktop14:25
ari-tczewalkisg, maybe therefore, that lucid is still development version, not finally14:30
ari-tczewand developers have time14:30
alkisgari-tczew: erm, sure14:30
alkisgI was wondering *technically* why it's still there14:30
alkisgNot philosophically..14:30
alkisgIt was removed from the seeds, but it's still there in germinate output14:31
htrejhhi15:42
htrejhwhat's the best packaging technique if you want to make a PPA?15:42
Mezok, weirdest sound issue ever.15:43
MezMy sound works perfectly, until I attach external media.15:43
aburchhtrejh: The same as for official packages?15:46
htrejhi'm simply a dev and i want to make a deb of nightly builds15:47
htrejhi can't remember what i used to make our current stable debs15:47
htrejhbut what should i use for a PPA?15:47
htrejhdo you understand what i mean?15:47
alkisghtrejh: here's a good start for packaging: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide15:47
vimpulse`Mez:  odd.15:47
vimpulse`hi all.  "Open Sonic is a free open-source game based on the 'Sonic the Hedgehog' universe." -- http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/home/index.php .  The latest version of the game is 0.1.2 and visually looks great.  But it's missing important features like saving your progress.  I'm thinking of filing a wnpp bug to get Debian to accept this into their repo.  But I'm worried that Ubuntu users might see this, not re15:48
vimpulse`number (0.1.2) means, and install it.  Is this a reasonable worry, or not?  :)15:48
alkisghtrejh: if you already have the debian directory, then you just need debuild -S -sa and dput15:48
htrejhyes thanks, i used it, but there are several methods, which one is the best for making nightly builds?15:48
htrejhok thanks15:49
htrejhvimpulse: seems to be a nice game xD wll try it :p15:49
Mezvimpulse`: I know - though, just booted into an older kernel, and it works fine. So it looks like it's the kernel15:53
alkisgvimpulse: is it supposed to have sound? It doesn't give any audio output for me...15:53
alkisg(otherwise it's cool, though :))15:54
vimpuls`sorry, I am having problems with my network adapter.  Did anyone answer me while I was gone?  :)15:59
vimpuls`Shortened repeat:  The game "Open Sonic" is missing important features like saving your progress.  I'm thinking of filing a wnpp bug to get Debian to accept the game into their repo.  But I'm worried that Ubuntu users might see the game, not realize what its low version number (0.1.2) means, and install it.  Is this a reasonable worry, or not?  :)16:03
alkisgvimpuls`: personally I don't think ubuntu users are worried about low version numbers.16:04
alkisgvimpuls`: is it supposed to have sound? It doesn't give any audio output for me...16:04
vimpuls`alkisg:  The game is supposed to have sound.  You installed the game?16:05
alkisgvimpuls`: yes, from the ppa16:05
vimpuls`alkisg:  What does "personally I don't think ubuntu users are worried about low version numbers" mean?16:06
vimpuls`alkisg:  though the game's music is pretty bad.  I prefer to listen to some MP3s while I play.16:06
vimpuls`alkisg:  The music will improve over time I'm sure.16:06
alkisgI think that they won't pay attention to the low version number...16:07
vimpuls`alkisg:  so they will install it not realizing that it can't save yet?16:07
htrejhis there any example of a source of a package that builds from SVN?16:07
alkisgvimpuls`: I think so, yes. So you might want to include a warning on first run. But of course that's just a personal opinion.16:07
vimpuls`alkisg:  I think the game installs its music to a directory somewhere on your PC.  If you have the right player, maybe you can listen to it from there.16:08
alkisgI just tried another allegro game, it also doesn't give any sound output, so it's probably something about my settings.. Never mind :)16:09
htrejhanybody knows an example?16:12
htrejhotherwise, how can you get a source package16:14
alkisgapt-get source <package>16:14
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htrejhthanks16:15
htrejhalkisg: can you get the src rpm of a ppa package too?16:16
alkisghtrejh: source deb? Sure, if you got it in your sources...16:16
htrejhhm16:17
htrejhit downloads the one from the main ubuntu repo16:17
alkisgDo you have the deb-src in your sources.list?16:17
htrejhno16:17
alkisghtrejh: you need something like this: deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/alkisg/ppa/ubuntu karmic main16:17
htrejhah ok16:17
htrejhthanks16:17
aburchhtrejh: If you don't want to add something to sources.list, you can also use `dget'.16:18
htrejhno is ok thx16:18
htrejhcan you use svn commands in your rules file to grab the svn version and compile it?16:21
aburchhtrejh: Technically yes, but if you do so during a regular build, it cannot be built after being uploaded to the PPA.16:24
htrejhow ok16:24
htrejhso how do nightly builds work16:24
htrejhi must make a tarball myself?16:24
htrejhand use it instead of the stable tarball16:25
aburchhtrejh: If you host your own repository, you can do whatever you want.  Otherwise automate building the source package itself.16:25
htrejhok16:26
htrejhthx16:26
htrejhis there a standard for naming svn versions?16:26
aburchhtrejh: Use a version number larger than the last offlicial release, but lower than the next official release.16:27
htrejhok16:27
aburchhtrejh: Something like 1.2+svn456-1 is a safe choice (with 1.2 being the last release, 456 the svn revision).16:28
htrejhok that's what i wanted to know, perfect :D16:28
aburchhtrejh: Some people also use the date instead of the revision number (esp. with other VCS like Git).16:29
htrejhyep16:29
htrejhis not good imo16:29
vimpuls`alkisg:  Thank you.  You inspired me to post http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=832 ("Suggestion: Tell users they can 'save' using their OS's hibernate mode").  I gave you credit by your full name in the post.16:29
alkisgvimpuls`: thanks, no need for credits though... :)16:29
vimpuls`alkisg:  you're welcome.  oh well -- already done :)16:30
alkisgvimpuls`: also, it the post it looks like I said all those things about what the game should show and when - while I didn't... They're your thoughts, so better tell that in the post.16:33
vimpuls`alkisg:  good point.  brb phone16:36
vimpuls`alkisg:  I've now edited the post to clarify that.16:57
alkisgok, ty16:58
vimpuls`alkisg:  you're welcome.16:59
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vimpuls`alkisg:  also, thank you for inspiring me with your first-run warning idea.  :)17:01
directhexkenvandine, poke poke17:02
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Drakesonfor some reason libnotify bubbles are really ugly (there are orange lines and a green area on the black notification bubbles). is this expected for now?18:43
ionIt’s debugging information for the development version of the distro. It will be turned off for the release version.18:45
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keesuhm, did apt regress?  I can't fetch source by version number.19:00
keesah-ha http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=56197119:01
ubottuDebian bug 561971 in apt ""apt-get source" always downloads default version" [Normal,Open]19:01
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PhilantropI'd like to look into upstart's configuration. AFAIK, native upstart configs have replaced the traditional System-V init scripts since 9.10 or so. The initscripts package (from lucid) seems to contain plain old sysv scripts only, though. Where would I find the native configuration? I'm interested in a real-world implementation for possible upstart adoption in another distribution. Would there be a package to look at for such an19:31
Philantropexample?19:31
geserlook at the files in /etc/init/ (note the missing .d)19:39
Philantropgeser: The scripts therein are provided by individual packages, I presume? And the initscripts package simply hasn't yet been ported to native upstart?19:40
geserYes, the upstart jobs are installed by individual packages. Don't know the status of initscripts.19:43
Philantropgeser: Ok, thanks. I guess I'll idle here for a while, hoping someone else might know about the initscripts package's status. :-)19:44
ebroderPhilantrop: Packages that have been converted to Upstart are done one-by-one, and since Debian hasn't switched to Upstart, they're done on the ubuntu side19:45
Philantropebroder: Oh, I see. I apologise for my ignorance in these matters but I'm not acquainted with either Debian or Ubuntu, I'm afraid.19:45
ebroderLooking at what the startup scripts in initscripts do, I'd suspect that most of those have been replaced either by functionality in Upstart itself or just separate scripts19:46
geserPhilantrop: you might have better chances to get answers next week when all the devs are back from their vacation19:46
Philantropgeser: Now, Ubuntu's sponsoring their devs a vacation? I'm doing something wrong, it seems! ;-)19:47
ebroderFor example, I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess, the mountall package handles what /etc/init.d/umount* did in initscripts19:48
geserPhilantrop: hopefully a s/vacation/holidays/ makes it better (English is not my native language so I sometimes still make errors)19:49
ebrodergeser: Depends on which side of the pond you're on :)19:50
Philantropebroder: I'm going to install Ubuntu in a VM and will try figuring things out from there for now, I guess.19:50
Drakesonion: well, it checks the env var "DEBUG" and if it is present, notify-osd goes annoying. I am wondering how that env var is set.19:51
emmaunquery19:53
sebnergeser: I need a sponsored vacation too :P20:21
cyphermoxsponsored?20:22
sebnercyphermox: sure, I'm a poor student :P20:23
cyphermoxsebner: ah, I see. forgot about the students situation ;)20:23
sebnerheh20:23
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joshua___anyway to set package state to "not installed but treat as installed for dependency checking" e.g. usplash22:17
geserwhy?22:17
joshua___I have a system that will not boot if usplash is installed but removing ubuntu-desktop to get rid of it is dumb22:17
geseryou could perhaps build with equivs a fake package but you're then on you own22:19
maxbI wish ubuntu-desktop didn't hard-depend on so many things. Is there a reason it doesn't simply recommend everything?22:20
joshua___another one was the development tools installed a bunch of junk but I just took to doing apt-get build-dep gcc instead22:21
gesermaxb: so in extreme you could have ubuntu-desktop installed but no of its packages?22:22
joshua___so what happens if I edit the control file and say I have version 99.999.999 of usplash installed when it's not?22:24
ebroder...you set yourself up to get screwed hard later?22:24
joshua___ebrder: I'm screwed hard if it's ever really installed22:24
ionRemove ‘splash’ from the kernel command line, or see equivs.22:24
ebroderUse equivs22:25
maxbWell, I suppose so. Really I care about not having choices such as notify-osd compelled upon me by a core metapackage22:27
joshua___hmmm I'm really tempted to make an apt-get poison <package> to make sure a package's status will not change no matter what deps say22:44
joshua___the only reason I haven't switched back to sysvinit is I could not figure what sequence of commands is necessary for X to find its input devices these days22:46
joshua___at least equivs did manage to convince apt that usplash was not to be installed22:52
MenZaI've proposed an idea I know the DesignTeam has been working on as well -- an Ubuntu-themed GRUB2 theme. I've received a lot of positive comments about this, and would like to kickstart some serious discussions about this -- should I submit this to -devel-discuss@lists?23:27
MenZaI'm concerned with the readiness of GRUB2 (having read some of the docs, it seems like it has a lot of limitations, still), and possibly investigate the idea of working with grub upstream to get something worth including in Lucid+123:30
RAOFMenZa: That wouldn't be a bad idea.  However, I've had a look at it and I think it's substantially more difficult to implement than you might think.23:30
MenZaRAOF: Basically, what I suggested (http://blog.lassehavelund.com/2010/grub-a-usability-hurdle-pt-2) isn't possible with the current limitations of GRUB2, but I know directhex has made a workable implementation, which is /something/23:31
RAOFOh, he has?  Wow.  That was fast.23:31
MenZasomething which, theoretically, could be in for Lucid, provided we get it done in a month and a half23:31
MenZaRAOF: Indeed.23:31
MenZahttp://i.imgur.com/rL86m.png <- RAOF23:32
MenZaSo it's possible to create /something/ at least; although it can't be as flashy as the original implementation I was rooting for. That said, this is certainly a start.23:33
RAOFAah, OK.  Yeah, I knew _that_ sort of thing was possible.23:33
MenZaAs is grouping by OS23:34
beunoMenZa, I'd encourage you to bring it up on the ayatana list as well23:34
MenZahttp://grub.gibibit.com/Themes <- see23:34
RAOFGive it a propose; it might conflict with the fast-boot goals, though.23:34
MenZabeuno: ayatana?23:34
beunoMenZa, https://edge.launchpad.net/ayatana23:35
MenZaAh, right23:35
beunoMenZa, https://edge.launchpad.net/ayatana23:35
beunois the ml23:35
ionSpeaking of grub, it would be nice if 30_os-prober was moved *before* 20_memtest86+ in /etc/grub.d, and also if only the first entry from 10_linux was added to the top and the rest, say, between the potential Windows entry and the memtest86+ entry. I probably should file a wishlish bug or something.23:35
* MenZa still cannot get used to LP having mailing lists23:35
MenZaSo you suggest a blueprint, beuno?23:36
* MenZa sees no mailing lists.23:37
beunoMenZa, I23:37
beunoI'd suggest birning up the mockups for discussion on the list23:37
beunothe ml is on the team page23:37
beunohttps://edge.launchpad.net/~ayatana23:37
MenZaah, right23:37
beunoyes, we will fix mailing lists in Launchpad23:37
beunoI have a plan for this year  :)23:37
MenZa\o/23:38
MenZaright, beuno -- subscribed to the mailing list. I'll send out an e-mail describing my ideas and a proposal for discussion later tonight23:39
MenZacheers23:39
beunoMenZa, thanks23:39
directhexas discussed on #grub though, changes are needed to grub itself23:41
directhexbut i suspect canonical has people who are more likely to do C than me23:41
MenZadirecthex: not if we are to remain with a design similar to the one you mocked up, but I don't see why upstream development should necessarily be a problem :)23:41
MenZa(again, great job on the PoC you did)23:42
directhexMenZa, it's not perfect. i should gzip it at some point.23:43
directhexoh, and post instructions, since it's non-obvious23:43
MenZaaye23:43
MenZadirecthex: feel free to join in on the ayatana@lists.launchpad.net thread I'm just sending off23:44
directhexit's actually pretty fast, which impresses me23:44
MenZayeah?23:44
MenZawell, that's good23:44
directhex256k. it'll bounce from the ML. i'll mail it to you direct, you can decide what to do with it.23:47
MenZastash it on people.ubuntu.com?23:48
MenZaif it complies with the 'free' policy, that is23:48
directhexi don't think i've ever used people.ubuntu.com. i should look into it23:50
MenZahave an ssh key, connect to people.ubuntu.com, you're dropped in your own dir.23:51
MenZasimple.23:51
MenZa(ssh key must be registered on lp)23:51
MenZado it straight from nautilus, or sftp> :p23:51

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