[03:46] <lamont> geser: interesting - I could have sworn I nuked apport after it blissfully uploaded sensitive info the last time I was stupid enough to run it
[03:47] <lamont> so yeah, no .crash file - firefox is to $something to actually leave one of those lying around for me.
[03:47] <lamont> OTOH, -dbgsym isn't too hard to figure out, either
[04:23] <ebroder> So...what and to whom do I have to sacrifice to see a new version of LVM pulled into lucid? cjwatson? :)
[06:26] <ScottK> bdrung_: New lintian release.  You ought to update for that in any case.
[08:35]  * ogra wonders if non english README and Changelog files are allowed in a package 
[08:35]  * ogra tries to package some SW that only has german files 
[08:39] <aburch> ogra: Why not? (For example `anthy' has mostly Japanese documentation)
[08:39] <ogra> great, i suspected it but i wasnt sure
[08:40] <aburch> (though anthy is not really useful if you don't understand any Japanese)
[08:48] <ogra> well, the software i package is for hardware only available in german speaking countries atm
[08:48] <ogra> so its not much different
[10:28] <DrSyk> Which channel should I use for discussion of app development on Ubu?
[11:16] <alkisg> libsdl1.2debian-alsa is an ubuntu-desktop task package. Can it be substituted by libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio, so that sdl sound isn't by default broken in Ubuntu? Unfortunately, libsdl1.2debian-alsa is in main, and libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio is in universe, so the latter would need to be included in main as well.
[11:56] <verb3k> Please someone upgrade libfribidi to the 0.19, it's very very old in the repositories. See here https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fribidi/+bug/191241
[11:59] <verb3k> is this the right place to ask for this?
[12:00] <verb3k> this package affects mplayer and VLC
[12:08] <persia> verb3k: The right place to ask is the bug report
[12:08] <verb3k> the bug report has been open since 2008
[12:09] <persia> True, but that doesn't make asking here best.  That package hasn't been modified in Ubuntu before, and appears to be languishing in Debian as well.
[12:10] <verb3k> so, all people affected by this bug should comment on the bug and say what?
[12:11] <persia> Hrm.  That's the tricky bit.  While our channel and support policies don't mandate an upgrade, I'm not sure that more comments in the report would make much difference wither.
[12:12] <verb3k> unless we bug someone with some sort of deciding power, nothing is likely to change
[12:12] <persia> Well, one way to address it would be to prepare an update of the package and submit to a sponsor for uploading.
[12:13] <persia> What the bug needs is someone to do the development work, rather than someone to point it out again.
[12:13] <verb3k> I am no dev, but I can tell it's not much work
[12:14] <persia> Indeed: the work is usually more in tracking the changes and keeping something modified from Debian up-to-date, on an ongoing basis.
[12:14] <verb3k> and I can't do it because I don't have packaging exp
[12:14] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete#Updating%20an%20Ubuntu%20Package has some instructions on how one might update a package.
[12:15] <persia> And https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess discusses how to get the results uploaded.
[12:16] <persia> But your best options are either to wait for someone else to do it or do it yourself.
[12:16] <verb3k> Thanks persia, hope for some results after I try this
[12:16] <persia> verb3k: Best of luck.  From the bug report, it looks like it would improve the experience for a number of users.
[13:23] <verb3k> been messing around with libfibidi 0.19.2, I don't think I will get it updated in Lucid without some help from an experienced packager
[13:32] <persia> verb3k: What seems to be the issue?
[13:33] <verb3k> I was digging in the guides you linked and I found out that I can't easily do it myself, the only option is to ask someone with experience to do it
[13:33] <persia> Did you get stuck trying to do it?
[13:33] <verb3k> sort of
[13:34] <persia> On which part?
[13:34] <verb3k> even if I can make a proper package I will still be skeptical if it is to be in main
[13:34] <verb3k> it has to be done by a real packager
[13:34] <persia> Why?
[13:34] <verb3k> I'm a layman
[13:35] <persia> So?  Many of the people who work on packages in Ubuntu would describe themselves that way when the started.
[13:35] <persia> Did you try the update?  Did it work?  Did something go wrong?
[13:38] <verb3k> Since libfribidi is a library, it comes with other dependencies like -dev stuff which also need to be packaged, but the examples show a single and simple packaging of a single program, that's why I think I won't be able to do it with my limited knowledge
[13:39] <persia> verb3k: Ah, I understand.  Someone appears to have produced a .deb in the bug report: perhaps they may be willing to help provide an update.
[13:40] <verb3k> How about you helping out?  :)
[13:41] <persia> I'm just heading to bed.  I could help some, but like you, I can't upload it :)
[13:41] <verb3k> well then, I will bug you tomorrow :D
[13:42] <verb3k> seriously, a lot of users will be grateful for anyone fixing this
[13:42] <persia> Tomorrow is tight for me, but I might be able to look at it later in the week.  That said, I do suspect you'd get a faster response by asking the person who already updated it to 0.20 (in the bug report) to submit source.
[13:42] <verb3k> I'll try that to
[13:43] <verb3k> too*
[13:45] <verb3k> Apparently he's only registered in LP to post that deb, after that he's inactive. (I can tell from his account information)
[13:45] <verb3k> and no email is provided
[13:50] <verb3k> Is anyone willing to help update a very, very outdated package in Lucid? libfribidi
[13:50] <verb3k> the ubuntu repo version is 0.10. Fedora has already updated to 0.19.2 without any issues
[13:51] <ari-tczew> talk to Debian maintainer
[13:51] <verb3k> There has been a bug report about it since 2008: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fribidi/+bug/191241
[13:51] <verb3k> Do you refer me to a specific person?
[13:52] <verb3k> ari-tczew, is it that ubuntu can't update a library if Debian doesn't?
[13:54] <ari-tczew> ubuntu can update it, of course
[13:55] <porthose> verb3k, from the debian bug report it appears that the debian maintainer is looking for some help with the package, maybe he would be willing to take you under his wing and show you the ropes
[13:55] <ari-tczew> verb3k, there are maintainers: http://packages.debian.org/sid/libfribidi-dev
[13:56] <ari-tczew> if you mean that I can help, you're wrong, I don't have time
[13:57] <verb3k> I sure would like to do it myself, but I don't have the knowledge/experience to do so
[13:57] <ari-tczew> it's good reason to learn
[13:57] <verb3k> that's why I am asking for people's help
[13:59] <verb3k> I can't even package a simple script, let alone a "main" library with dependencies and such, that wouldn't be possible for a layman
[13:59] <verb3k> it has to be taken care of by a professional
[13:59] <ari-tczew> we have a lot of information on wiki.ubuntu.com and there are manpages
[14:02] <verb3k> how about contacting DH? maybe he can help
[14:03] <ari-tczew> verb3k, are you mean about dholbach?
[14:03] <verb3k> yes
[14:04] <ari-tczew> dunno, ask him by e-mail
[14:04] <verb3k> I think I'll do that
[14:05] <verb3k> Man he's got like 10 emails :D which one should I mail
[14:07] <ari-tczew> I think that on first field
[14:08] <ari-tczew> However, I guess that dholbach has integrated all emails
[14:09] <verb3k> thanks ari-tczew, hope he'll help
[14:25]  * alkisg wonders why gimp is still in the lucid live iso (not that I'm complaining): http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu.lucid/desktop
[14:30] <ari-tczew> alkisg, maybe therefore, that lucid is still development version, not finally
[14:30] <ari-tczew> and developers have time
[14:30] <alkisg> ari-tczew: erm, sure
[14:30] <alkisg> I was wondering *technically* why it's still there
[14:30] <alkisg> Not philosophically..
[14:31] <alkisg> It was removed from the seeds, but it's still there in germinate output
[15:42] <htrejh> hi
[15:42] <htrejh> what's the best packaging technique if you want to make a PPA?
[15:43] <Mez> ok, weirdest sound issue ever.
[15:43] <Mez> My sound works perfectly, until I attach external media.
[15:46] <aburch> htrejh: The same as for official packages?
[15:47] <htrejh> i'm simply a dev and i want to make a deb of nightly builds
[15:47] <htrejh> i can't remember what i used to make our current stable debs
[15:47] <htrejh> but what should i use for a PPA?
[15:47] <htrejh> do you understand what i mean?
[15:47] <alkisg> htrejh: here's a good start for packaging: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
[15:47] <vimpulse`> Mez:  odd.
[15:48] <vimpulse`> hi all.  "Open Sonic is a free open-source game based on the 'Sonic the Hedgehog' universe." -- http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/home/index.php .  The latest version of the game is 0.1.2 and visually looks great.  But it's missing important features like saving your progress.  I'm thinking of filing a wnpp bug to get Debian to accept this into their repo.  But I'm worried that Ubuntu users might see this, not re
[15:48] <vimpulse`> number (0.1.2) means, and install it.  Is this a reasonable worry, or not?  :)
[15:48] <alkisg> htrejh: if you already have the debian directory, then you just need debuild -S -sa and dput
[15:48] <htrejh> yes thanks, i used it, but there are several methods, which one is the best for making nightly builds?
[15:49] <htrejh> ok thanks
[15:49] <htrejh> vimpulse: seems to be a nice game xD wll try it :p
[15:53] <Mez> vimpulse`: I know - though, just booted into an older kernel, and it works fine. So it looks like it's the kernel
[15:53] <alkisg> vimpulse: is it supposed to have sound? It doesn't give any audio output for me...
[15:54] <alkisg> (otherwise it's cool, though :))
[15:59] <vimpuls`> sorry, I am having problems with my network adapter.  Did anyone answer me while I was gone?  :)
[16:03] <vimpuls`> Shortened repeat:  The game "Open Sonic" is missing important features like saving your progress.  I'm thinking of filing a wnpp bug to get Debian to accept the game into their repo.  But I'm worried that Ubuntu users might see the game, not realize what its low version number (0.1.2) means, and install it.  Is this a reasonable worry, or not?  :)
[16:04] <alkisg> vimpuls`: personally I don't think ubuntu users are worried about low version numbers.
[16:04] <alkisg> vimpuls`: is it supposed to have sound? It doesn't give any audio output for me...
[16:05] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  The game is supposed to have sound.  You installed the game?
[16:05] <alkisg> vimpuls`: yes, from the ppa
[16:06] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  What does "personally I don't think ubuntu users are worried about low version numbers" mean?
[16:06] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  though the game's music is pretty bad.  I prefer to listen to some MP3s while I play.
[16:06] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  The music will improve over time I'm sure.
[16:07] <alkisg> I think that they won't pay attention to the low version number...
[16:07] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  so they will install it not realizing that it can't save yet?
[16:07] <htrejh> is there any example of a source of a package that builds from SVN?
[16:07] <alkisg> vimpuls`: I think so, yes. So you might want to include a warning on first run. But of course that's just a personal opinion.
[16:08] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  I think the game installs its music to a directory somewhere on your PC.  If you have the right player, maybe you can listen to it from there.
[16:09] <alkisg> I just tried another allegro game, it also doesn't give any sound output, so it's probably something about my settings.. Never mind :)
[16:12] <htrejh> anybody knows an example?
[16:14] <htrejh> otherwise, how can you get a source package
[16:14] <alkisg> apt-get source <package>
[16:15] <htrejh> thanks
[16:16] <htrejh> alkisg: can you get the src rpm of a ppa package too?
[16:16] <alkisg> htrejh: source deb? Sure, if you got it in your sources...
[16:17] <htrejh> hm
[16:17] <htrejh> it downloads the one from the main ubuntu repo
[16:17] <alkisg> Do you have the deb-src in your sources.list?
[16:17] <htrejh> no
[16:17] <alkisg> htrejh: you need something like this: deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/alkisg/ppa/ubuntu karmic main
[16:17] <htrejh> ah ok
[16:17] <htrejh> thanks
[16:18] <aburch> htrejh: If you don't want to add something to sources.list, you can also use `dget'.
[16:18] <htrejh> no is ok thx
[16:21] <htrejh> can you use svn commands in your rules file to grab the svn version and compile it?
[16:24] <aburch> htrejh: Technically yes, but if you do so during a regular build, it cannot be built after being uploaded to the PPA.
[16:24] <htrejh> ow ok
[16:24] <htrejh> so how do nightly builds work
[16:24] <htrejh> i must make a tarball myself?
[16:25] <htrejh> and use it instead of the stable tarball
[16:25] <aburch> htrejh: If you host your own repository, you can do whatever you want.  Otherwise automate building the source package itself.
[16:26] <htrejh> ok
[16:26] <htrejh> thx
[16:26] <htrejh> is there a standard for naming svn versions?
[16:27] <aburch> htrejh: Use a version number larger than the last offlicial release, but lower than the next official release.
[16:27] <htrejh> ok
[16:28] <aburch> htrejh: Something like 1.2+svn456-1 is a safe choice (with 1.2 being the last release, 456 the svn revision).
[16:28] <htrejh> ok that's what i wanted to know, perfect :D
[16:29] <aburch> htrejh: Some people also use the date instead of the revision number (esp. with other VCS like Git).
[16:29] <htrejh> yep
[16:29] <htrejh> is not good imo
[16:29] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  Thank you.  You inspired me to post http://opensnc.sourceforge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=832 ("Suggestion: Tell users they can 'save' using their OS's hibernate mode").  I gave you credit by your full name in the post.
[16:29] <alkisg> vimpuls`: thanks, no need for credits though... :)
[16:30] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  you're welcome.  oh well -- already done :)
[16:33] <alkisg> vimpuls`: also, it the post it looks like I said all those things about what the game should show and when - while I didn't... They're your thoughts, so better tell that in the post.
[16:36] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  good point.  brb phone
[16:57] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  I've now edited the post to clarify that.
[16:58] <alkisg> ok, ty
[16:59] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  you're welcome.
[17:01] <vimpuls`> alkisg:  also, thank you for inspiring me with your first-run warning idea.  :)
[17:02] <directhex> kenvandine, poke poke
[18:43] <Drakeson> for some reason libnotify bubbles are really ugly (there are orange lines and a green area on the black notification bubbles). is this expected for now?
[18:45] <ion> It’s debugging information for the development version of the distro. It will be turned off for the release version.
[19:00] <kees> uhm, did apt regress?  I can't fetch source by version number.
[19:01] <kees> ah-ha http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=561971
[19:31] <Philantrop> I'd like to look into upstart's configuration. AFAIK, native upstart configs have replaced the traditional System-V init scripts since 9.10 or so. The initscripts package (from lucid) seems to contain plain old sysv scripts only, though. Where would I find the native configuration? I'm interested in a real-world implementation for possible upstart adoption in another distribution. Would there be a package to look at for such an
[19:31] <Philantrop> example?
[19:39] <geser> look at the files in /etc/init/ (note the missing .d)
[19:40] <Philantrop> geser: The scripts therein are provided by individual packages, I presume? And the initscripts package simply hasn't yet been ported to native upstart?
[19:43] <geser> Yes, the upstart jobs are installed by individual packages. Don't know the status of initscripts.
[19:44] <Philantrop> geser: Ok, thanks. I guess I'll idle here for a while, hoping someone else might know about the initscripts package's status. :-)
[19:45] <ebroder> Philantrop: Packages that have been converted to Upstart are done one-by-one, and since Debian hasn't switched to Upstart, they're done on the ubuntu side
[19:45] <Philantrop> ebroder: Oh, I see. I apologise for my ignorance in these matters but I'm not acquainted with either Debian or Ubuntu, I'm afraid.
[19:46] <ebroder> Looking at what the startup scripts in initscripts do, I'd suspect that most of those have been replaced either by functionality in Upstart itself or just separate scripts
[19:46] <geser> Philantrop: you might have better chances to get answers next week when all the devs are back from their vacation
[19:47] <Philantrop> geser: Now, Ubuntu's sponsoring their devs a vacation? I'm doing something wrong, it seems! ;-)
[19:48] <ebroder> For example, I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess, the mountall package handles what /etc/init.d/umount* did in initscripts
[19:49] <geser> Philantrop: hopefully a s/vacation/holidays/ makes it better (English is not my native language so I sometimes still make errors)
[19:50] <ebroder> geser: Depends on which side of the pond you're on :)
[19:50] <Philantrop> ebroder: I'm going to install Ubuntu in a VM and will try figuring things out from there for now, I guess.
[19:51] <Drakeson> ion: well, it checks the env var "DEBUG" and if it is present, notify-osd goes annoying. I am wondering how that env var is set.
[19:53] <emma> unquery
[20:21] <sebner> geser: I need a sponsored vacation too :P
[20:22] <cyphermox> sponsored?
[20:23] <sebner> cyphermox: sure, I'm a poor student :P
[20:23] <cyphermox> sebner: ah, I see. forgot about the students situation ;)
[20:23] <sebner> heh
[22:17] <joshua___> anyway to set package state to "not installed but treat as installed for dependency checking" e.g. usplash
[22:17] <geser> why?
[22:17] <joshua___> I have a system that will not boot if usplash is installed but removing ubuntu-desktop to get rid of it is dumb
[22:19] <geser> you could perhaps build with equivs a fake package but you're then on you own
[22:20] <maxb> I wish ubuntu-desktop didn't hard-depend on so many things. Is there a reason it doesn't simply recommend everything?
[22:21] <joshua___> another one was the development tools installed a bunch of junk but I just took to doing apt-get build-dep gcc instead
[22:22] <geser> maxb: so in extreme you could have ubuntu-desktop installed but no of its packages?
[22:24] <joshua___> so what happens if I edit the control file and say I have version 99.999.999 of usplash installed when it's not?
[22:24] <ebroder> ...you set yourself up to get screwed hard later?
[22:24] <joshua___> ebrder: I'm screwed hard if it's ever really installed
[22:24] <ion> Remove ‘splash’ from the kernel command line, or see equivs.
[22:25] <ebroder> Use equivs
[22:27] <maxb> Well, I suppose so. Really I care about not having choices such as notify-osd compelled upon me by a core metapackage
[22:44] <joshua___> hmmm I'm really tempted to make an apt-get poison <package> to make sure a package's status will not change no matter what deps say
[22:46] <joshua___> the only reason I haven't switched back to sysvinit is I could not figure what sequence of commands is necessary for X to find its input devices these days
[22:52] <joshua___> at least equivs did manage to convince apt that usplash was not to be installed
[23:27] <MenZa> I've proposed an idea I know the DesignTeam has been working on as well -- an Ubuntu-themed GRUB2 theme. I've received a lot of positive comments about this, and would like to kickstart some serious discussions about this -- should I submit this to -devel-discuss@lists?
[23:30] <MenZa> I'm concerned with the readiness of GRUB2 (having read some of the docs, it seems like it has a lot of limitations, still), and possibly investigate the idea of working with grub upstream to get something worth including in Lucid+1
[23:30] <RAOF> MenZa: That wouldn't be a bad idea.  However, I've had a look at it and I think it's substantially more difficult to implement than you might think.
[23:31] <MenZa> RAOF: Basically, what I suggested (http://blog.lassehavelund.com/2010/grub-a-usability-hurdle-pt-2) isn't possible with the current limitations of GRUB2, but I know directhex has made a workable implementation, which is /something/
[23:31] <RAOF> Oh, he has?  Wow.  That was fast.
[23:31] <MenZa> something which, theoretically, could be in for Lucid, provided we get it done in a month and a half
[23:31] <MenZa> RAOF: Indeed.
[23:32] <MenZa> http://i.imgur.com/rL86m.png <- RAOF
[23:33] <MenZa> So it's possible to create /something/ at least; although it can't be as flashy as the original implementation I was rooting for. That said, this is certainly a start.
[23:33] <RAOF> Aah, OK.  Yeah, I knew _that_ sort of thing was possible.
[23:34] <MenZa> As is grouping by OS
[23:34] <beuno> MenZa, I'd encourage you to bring it up on the ayatana list as well
[23:34] <MenZa> http://grub.gibibit.com/Themes <- see
[23:34] <RAOF> Give it a propose; it might conflict with the fast-boot goals, though.
[23:34] <MenZa> beuno: ayatana?
[23:35] <beuno> MenZa, https://edge.launchpad.net/ayatana
[23:35] <MenZa> Ah, right
[23:35] <beuno> MenZa, https://edge.launchpad.net/ayatana
[23:35] <beuno> is the ml
[23:35] <ion> Speaking of grub, it would be nice if 30_os-prober was moved *before* 20_memtest86+ in /etc/grub.d, and also if only the first entry from 10_linux was added to the top and the rest, say, between the potential Windows entry and the memtest86+ entry. I probably should file a wishlish bug or something.
[23:35]  * MenZa still cannot get used to LP having mailing lists
[23:36] <MenZa> So you suggest a blueprint, beuno?
[23:37]  * MenZa sees no mailing lists.
[23:37] <beuno> MenZa, I
[23:37] <beuno> I'd suggest birning up the mockups for discussion on the list
[23:37] <beuno> the ml is on the team page
[23:37] <beuno> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ayatana
[23:37] <MenZa> ah, right
[23:37] <beuno> yes, we will fix mailing lists in Launchpad
[23:37] <beuno> I have a plan for this year  :)
[23:38] <MenZa> \o/
[23:39] <MenZa> right, beuno -- subscribed to the mailing list. I'll send out an e-mail describing my ideas and a proposal for discussion later tonight
[23:39] <MenZa> cheers
[23:39] <beuno> MenZa, thanks
[23:41] <directhex> as discussed on #grub though, changes are needed to grub itself
[23:41] <directhex> but i suspect canonical has people who are more likely to do C than me
[23:41] <MenZa> directhex: not if we are to remain with a design similar to the one you mocked up, but I don't see why upstream development should necessarily be a problem :)
[23:42] <MenZa> (again, great job on the PoC you did)
[23:43] <directhex> MenZa, it's not perfect. i should gzip it at some point.
[23:43] <directhex> oh, and post instructions, since it's non-obvious
[23:43] <MenZa> aye
[23:44] <MenZa> directhex: feel free to join in on the ayatana@lists.launchpad.net thread I'm just sending off
[23:44] <directhex> it's actually pretty fast, which impresses me
[23:44] <MenZa> yeah?
[23:44] <MenZa> well, that's good
[23:47] <directhex> 256k. it'll bounce from the ML. i'll mail it to you direct, you can decide what to do with it.
[23:48] <MenZa> stash it on people.ubuntu.com?
[23:48] <MenZa> if it complies with the 'free' policy, that is
[23:50] <directhex> i don't think i've ever used people.ubuntu.com. i should look into it
[23:51] <MenZa> have an ssh key, connect to people.ubuntu.com, you're dropped in your own dir.
[23:51] <MenZa> simple.
[23:51] <MenZa> (ssh key must be registered on lp)
[23:51] <MenZa> do it straight from nautilus, or sftp> :p