[13:00]  * asac waves
[13:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[13:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.
[13:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:00] <NCommander> morning all
[13:00] <davidm> G'day
[13:00] <dyfet> need coffee
[13:00] <GrueMaster> Zzzz
[13:01] <JamieBennett> Happy New Year !
[13:01] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20100105
[13:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20100105
[13:01]  * ogra waves (with a head that doesnt feel like it fits through the door)
[13:01] <NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:02] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[13:02] <ogra> i guess we can ignore the ARs this week :)
[13:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[13:03] <NCommander> [topic] cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
[13:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  cooloney to ask ericm about 2.6.32 patches for marvell dove
[13:03] <cooloney_> i think ericm_ just got the .32 patches from marvell
[13:03] <ogra> NCommander, btw. you should include one of the kernel guys in the meeting ping in the future
[13:04] <NCommander> ogra, ah, will do
[13:04] <asac> both please
[13:04] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to email Marvell about the date of the next expected kernel drop
[13:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to email Marvell about the date of the next expected kernel drop
[13:05] <NCommander> c/o on this one, although if ericm_ got the 32 patches already, then not needed.
[13:05] <NCommander> [topic] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
[13:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
[13:05] <persia> We failed on this one again.
[13:05] <asac> what was that about? (probably needs to be carried forward)
[13:05]  * ogra didnt do anything here 
[13:06] <ogra> asac, that was about getting the non arch specific features ported to the .31 kernel
[13:06] <asac> is that about user space?
[13:06] <persia> asac: ogra: let's get together about 9:00 UTC tomorrow and do this.
[13:06] <ogra> so we have all distro features available
[13:06] <ogra> asac, nope
[13:06] <asac> hmm. shouldnt we get cooloney_ on board too then?
[13:06] <ogra> about aufs, apparmor and friends
[13:06] <persia> We were supposed to give cooloney_ a report :)
[13:06] <ogra> right
[13:06]  * ericm_ waves to all
[13:06] <persia> So yeah, tomorrow work for you two?
[13:07] <NCommander> hey ericm_, did we get a 32 drop from Marvell?
[13:07] <ogra> persia, 1h later ?
[13:07] <persia> OK.
[13:07] <ogra> great
[13:07] <ericm_> NCommander, yes - I'm working on the rebase
[13:07] <asac> ok
[13:07] <asac> we can try
[13:07] <ericm_> hopefully to get a working kernel in these days
[13:08] <ogra> would be good to have both new kernels there for A2
[13:08] <NCommander> ericm_, where are the base Marvell branches? I think we may have another thumb mode kernel bug (I sent you an email about it)
[13:08] <ogra> since they will need heavy testing
[13:08] <ericm_> NCommander, yes I've got that email - the branch is on kernel.ubuntu.com
[13:08] <ericm_> let me find the exact URL
[13:09] <asac> ogra: persia: sent an invite for tomorrow (in case you care)
[13:09] <ogra> thanks
[13:09] <ericm_> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=marvell/dove-kernel/.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/marvell-dove-2.6.32.2
[13:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=marvell/dove-kernel/.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/marvell-dove-2.6.32.2
[13:09] <asac> yes. from whati understood cooloney_ will try to get the fsl kernel done this week
[13:09] <cooloney_> asac: yeah,
[13:09] <cooloney_> i am working on this
[13:09] <NCommander> ericm_, awesome. I'll talk to you more about the issues outside this meeting.
[13:09] <ericm_> asac, hopefully me too
[13:09] <ericm_> NCommander, no problem
[13:10] <NCommander> [topic] Current Items for Lucid Alpha 2
[13:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Current Items for Lucid Alpha 2
[13:10] <NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:10] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:10] <asac> we have a big backlog ...
[13:10] <NCommander> asac, Christmas holidays unfortunately do that :-/
[13:10] <asac> yeah
[13:10] <asac> so part of the backlog is definitly me
[13:11] <ogra> me too
[13:11] <NCommander> Any objection if we just run through each Alpha 2 spec individually?
[13:11] <asac> thats the nature of the items i have ... most are items that are scheduled to happen at alpha-2
[13:11] <asac> like the thumb spec etc.
[13:11] <asac> but ... would be great if everyone could check his spec and see if there are work items that either are DONE or can be POSTPONED
[13:11] <ogra> but we have until monday ...
[13:12] <ogra> so a good bunch should be affordable
[13:12] <NCommander> We should have working alternates for Alpha2, although the dove alternate currently seems to be semi-foobar during kernel installation
[13:13] <ogra> is the test requirement fulfilled already `
[13:13] <NCommander> There was an image on antimony that was preventing alternate images for ports spinning. This has been resolved
[13:13] <NCommander> ogra, which test requirements? ISO testing?
[13:13] <ogra> iirc that is supposed to have clearified the community testing first
[13:14] <ogra> at least thats what i was told at UDS
[13:14] <ogra> i.e. we will only do it if we have enough community testing since we dont have the resources in the team
[13:15] <asac> i would suggest to do it... and see how well the testing goes
[13:15]  * ogra definately doesnt have additional 6h per image to invest 
[13:15] <asac> of coures not officially support it until we have the resources
[13:15] <ogra> we dont have them *now*
[13:15] <ogra> and the desktop images will suffer through pulling time off them
[13:15] <ogra> s/them/their testing/
[13:16] <ogra> which we definately have to do
[13:16] <asac> but from the technical side, what is missing?
[13:16] <ogra> alternate testing takes at least 3x as much time
[13:16] <asac> NCommander: ?
[13:16] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[13:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
[13:16] <NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
[13:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid/report.html
[13:16] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status
[13:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status
[13:17] <ogra> ??
[13:17] <asac> NCommander: whats going on?
[13:17] <NCommander> oh
[13:17] <NCommander> bugger
[13:17]  * NCommander goes to drink more coffee
[13:17] <NCommander> asac, on the technical side, not too much. the d-cd script for dove have been fixed, so now our alternates boot
[13:17] <persia> NCommander already talked about the alternate status.
[13:17] <asac> ok
[13:18] <ogra> NCommander, what about the ppp package issues ?
[13:18] <asac> we fixed that a month ago ;)
[13:18] <asac> or two?
[13:18] <persia> Live images have been mostly built, although today's were hit with hplib version skew.
[13:18] <NCommander> ogra, the fix was deploy to antimony just before Christmas break
[13:18] <ogra> asac, and the new packages are backported and installed on the builder ?
[13:18] <asac> yes
[13:18] <ogra> NCommander, ah, thanks
[13:18] <StevenK> persia: Was that just a delay with NEW or something else?
[13:18] <asac> ok ... so to finish this alternate image topic.
[13:18] <ogra> i know when you fixed it ... just didnt know when it went into hardy
[13:19] <persia> I thought it was just a build-time delay between arch:all and arch:any
[13:19] <NCommander> ogra, its in hardy-cat, I don't believe we did an SRU for it
[13:19] <asac> can we agree that we have all the bits in place ... and that we can do manual image runs to ensure that they work?
[13:19] <NCommander> asac, +1
[13:19] <asac> but we dont enable them until we have a) more builders ... and b) a community testing plan?
[13:19] <ogra> asac, we can ... and i'd be happy to test them, juct not during alpha testing in general
[13:19] <NCommander> asac, the images are built on antimony and not on an armel box, so an alternate rebuild is trivial
[13:19] <ogra> right, building isnt an issue
[13:20] <asac> ok so a) can be scratchd
[13:20] <NCommander> asac, I'd say we provide them as a best effort, but I'd lthem to at least have a semi-good chance of working
[13:20] <asac> so cant we keep them being produced, but just not supported?
[13:20] <ogra> they build since jaunty :)
[13:20] <ogra> more or less functional though
[13:20] <NCommander> ogra, imx51 ones maybe, dove just got their first working ones
[13:20] <ogra> yeah, imx51 indeed
[13:21] <persia> StevenK: You're right: it was NEW.
[13:21] <StevenK> persia: Right, skew due to NEW I can deal with.
[13:22] <NCommander> so
[13:22] <NCommander> go onto ARM image status?
[13:22] <persia> I thought we were talking about ARM image status.
[13:22] <asac> wait a bit
[13:22]  * ogra didnt do any test install, but the build logs for imx51 look perfect 
[13:22] <asac> wanted to check a few others.
[13:23] <asac> JamieBennett: do you have a way forward for figuring out where the time is lost in the debconf-communicate thing?
[13:23] <persia> ogra: livefs builds failed today (libmpmud0 NEW)
[13:23] <asac> (casper speedup)
[13:23] <JamieBennett> asac: Yes, 3 actually
[13:23] <JamieBennett> But one is the obvious choice
[13:23] <ogra> persia, didnt look today yet, just returned from the dentist and will lay down after the meeting again
[13:24] <asac> ok cool. thats on track then
[13:24] <ogra> persia, but nothing that wouldnt be solved in general ... its not arch specific
[13:24] <asac> plars: efficient instlal testing ... when will we get the all-pairs generated?
[13:24] <persia> ogra: Right.  Same happened for powerpc.  Anyway, I'll be glad to give this back to you :)
[13:24] <ogra> :)
[13:24] <plars> the test pairs are generated and documented in the wiki, I just need to write the detail for them on the qa testplan wiki
[13:24] <plars> then we can create the virtual milestones and link them
[13:25] <asac> cool
[13:25] <asac> so when can we start doing all-pairs testing?
[13:25] <plars> asac: good target would be somewhere after A2 at the soonest
[13:25] <plars> the milestones should exist between milestone images
[13:26] <plars> but A2 is even pretty early to focus *too* hard on it
[13:26] <asac> ok great.
[13:26] <plars> doesn't hurt though
[13:26] <asac> so we assume that paramaters == questions asked during instlal?
[13:27] <asac> thought it could also be things like: "what install media type" ... "what network connection" etc.
[13:27] <asac> though testing that might be tricky
[13:27] <plars> essentially, or could be boot screen options also (once supported), network connection during install, partitioning selection, etc
[13:28] <plars> asac: for purposes of this type of testing, the network connected or disconnected during install is really what we want to focus on
[13:28] <asac> ok. lets start with what you have now. we can extend later
[13:28] <plars> since problems have been exhibited there before
[13:28] <asac> plars: did you manually generate the all-pairs or do you use a script?
[13:28] <plars> asac: right, we can certainly extend it all if needs be
[13:28] <asac> if you have a script that would be great to post on wiki so we can rerun it if we have more paramaters we want to pair
[13:28] <plars> the pairs were generated programatically, but had to be translated manually (easy) into which items that corresponded with
[13:29] <asac> could you post the tool you used to generate it there?
[13:29] <asac> ogra: uboot spec is on track for alpha-2 until we know its not on track?
[13:29] <asac> :-P
[13:29] <plars> I think it's linked from the bp wiki page, but I'll check to make sure
[13:30] <ogra> asac, yeah ... will be done latest on the weekend
[13:30] <ogra> will get 100% of my focus as soon as i feel better
[13:30] <asac> ok.
[13:30]  * asac sends a grain of good feeling to ogra
[13:30] <ogra> :)
[13:31] <NCommander> anything else we want to bring up for Alpha 2?
[13:31] <ogra> i already am better ... just that anaesthesia going away leaves me with massive pain
[13:31] <JamieBennett> asac: we have issues with 2D launcher MIR's. We need to convince reviews that upstream will sort out what they call 'minor issues' or provide patches ourself to speed up the process (also two MIR's are unassigned)
[13:31] <ogra> (and i'm not allowed to put painkillers on top)
[13:31] <asac> JamieBennett: ok. thanks for letting me know. lets talk about that after meeting
[13:32] <JamieBennett> ok
[13:32] <asac> ok the other specs have a backlog as previously pointed out:
[13:32] <asac> thumb -> work items are review items to happen at alpha-2 stage
[13:32] <asac> lightweight browser -> took a while to get chromium working, but now we have progress again
[13:33] <ogra> when will we see it in the archive ?
[13:33] <asac> suspend-resume -> reduced set of work items (most was moved to alpha-3) should be doable for alpha-2
[13:33] <mok0> chromium is GREAT
[13:33] <StevenK> I'd like to see a debian/copyright I'm happy with for Chromium, but that is A LOT of work
[13:34] <dmart> asac, did we have a working ff build now?
[13:34] <asac> ogra: i am working on license documentation ... tough task, but progress. i hope we get that to a stage that StevenK is happy to accept it
[13:34] <ogra> bribe him
[13:34] <asac> dmart: the patch will get uploaded with .7
[13:34] <persia> Needs to be a big bribe.  That's almost megabytes of licenses.
[13:34] <asac> which is happening ... erm ... now ;)
[13:34]  * ogra heard rubber boats go well in east australia atm 
[13:34] <ogra> oh, that was mean, sorry
[13:34] <asac> persia: i have a tool to generate dep5 format copyrigh tnow
[13:35] <StevenK> ogra: Hm?
[13:35] <persia> asac: Yeah, but still :)
[13:35] <asac> with whitelisting etc. stuff will get down to a reasoanble amount of unknown stuff
[13:35] <asac> persia: yes. but thats StevenK's main job then ;)
[13:35] <asac> now that didrocks has started :-P
[13:35] <asac> ok
[13:35] <asac> we can move on
[13:36] <asac> oh ... lib-test ... probably will be late
[13:36] <asac> not too scary as long as it happens soon after alpha-2
[13:36] <persia> Maybe it's worth re-milestoning those then.
[13:36] <asac> persia: its tricky the work item tracker needs a different approach
[13:36] <persia> Hrm.
[13:36] <asac> so for split up blueprints we target the next delivery milestone
[13:36] <asac> and then move ahead
[13:37] <persia> So, do I need to repeat the stuff about the ARM image status, or is that done?
[13:37] <asac> otherwise the items we want to see done by alpha-2 wont show up here.
[13:37] <asac> persia: i think that sank ... maybe repeat ;)
[13:37] <asac> 14:16 < NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status
[13:37] <persia> OK.
[13:38] <persia> So, ports alternates just got fixed a few hours back (some issue with confusion in a cron job)
[13:38]  * ogra just repeats imx51 looks good apart from general non armel related breakage
[13:38] <persia> As a result, we should start seeing alternate images again soon.
[13:38] <NCommander> persia, d-cd didn't take well to lpia being rm'ed
[13:38] <persia> NCommander: Yeah, but I wasn't getting into details :)
[13:38] <ogra> (desktop that is)
[13:39] <persia> Live images have been OK for a while, but the livefs builds failed today due to NEW delay (sorted for tomorrow).
[13:39] <ogra> NCommander, how about dove desktop ?
[13:39] <NCommander> ogra, they're working aside from the usual livefs breakages
[13:39] <ogra> whats "usual" ?
[13:39] <NCommander> ogra, i.e., somethng that would also break imx51
[13:40] <NCommander> ogra, I guess I should say, no dove specific breakage known at this time
[13:40] <ogra> and amd64 ?
[13:40] <ogra> or x86
[13:40] <ogra> great :)
[13:40] <ogra> as long as its not armel related i dont care :P
[13:40] <NCommander> ogra, I'm testing images daily at this point as a lead into alpha2. Rather not miss another milestone with dove
[13:41] <ogra> you know that they can become shaky this week ... dont count to much on installability
[13:41] <ogra> everyone tries to get features for A2 ready
[13:41] <ogra> the archive will be out of sync often
[13:41]  * StevenK is planning to break armel images this week and get them building UNE
[13:41] <NCommander> ogra, I rather catch failure early than during A2 ISO testing.
[13:41] <NCommander> StevenK, need a hand?
[13:41] <NCommander> :-)
[13:41] <persia> Oh, and the last thing I had to say about images is that I'm glad people are returning from holiday so that others are watching them :)
[13:41] <ogra> right, just make sure to tell them apart from feature development
[13:42] <asac> StevenK: how about keeping keeping the desktop images until we have a working une image? at least we have a image at alpha-2 then ;)
[13:42] <ogra> multi package features are likely to trash stuff, especially this week with the last minute uploads
[13:42] <NCommander> ogra, we still do have some ubiquity weirdness with manual partitioning on dove. That might slide to Alpha 3, I'm grinding my wheels on that one.
[13:42] <StevenK> asac: I'm happy enough to do that, and davidm agrees with you.
[13:42] <persia> asac: As long as we have all the packages built correctly, why not change the seeds?
[13:42] <asac> StevenK: ok cool. thx!
[13:42] <ogra> NCommander, thats just a bug we can release note ...
[13:43] <asac> persia: risk minmization
[13:43] <asac> you never know
[13:43] <ogra> its an alpha after all, not a final :)
[13:43] <asac> you can just enable a new seed
[13:43] <asac> and if that work we disable the old seed ;)
[13:43] <NCommander> StevenK, is the actual desktop image on dove going to be UNE-2D, or are we going to simply build desktop and ubuntu-netbook-edition-2d ARM
[13:43] <NCommander> or asac beat me to that question
[13:43] <persia> new seed?  I thought the plan was just arch-specific stuff to existing seeds.
[13:43] <StevenK> NCommander: At first, both, and then the former only
[13:43] <asac> NCommander: UNE-2D is our main target
[13:44] <asac> persia: yes. new seed for armel
[13:44] <asac> not overal
[13:44] <NCommander> asac, StevenK, TBH, I rather just disable the desktop task on the image build system, and leave alternates for people who want them
[13:44] <asac> NCommander: that doesnt conflict with what we say
[13:44] <StevenK> asac: It wasn't going to be a new seed?
[13:44] <asac> StevenK: your decision ;)
[13:44]  * ogra thoughgt it was an on-top seed
[13:44] <NCommander> If we can build both concurrently, I say thats the way to do it, then just focus on UNE
[13:44] <asac> i just think having desktop images produced until we have the new images would be great
[13:44] <StevenK> It will not be a new seed. There.
[13:45] <asac> and reduces risk and burn out syndrom potential in case something goes bad
[13:45] <StevenK> platform -> netbook is hard enough; I don't want to deal with platform -> netbook -> armel-stuff
[13:45] <persia> \o/ reduced number of seeds
[13:45] <NCommander> asac, I rather just keep the desktop image around like we build kubuntu and xubuntu armel
[13:45] <ogra> NCommander, ask IS if you may :P
[13:46] <NCommander> Maybe turn off the live images to save some time on the livefs builder
[13:46] <StevenK> NCommander: cdimage space is still a going concern
[13:46] <ogra> yeah
[13:46] <ogra> a huge concern
[13:46] <StevenK> (Since it always is)
[13:46]  * StevenK gives the ogra the secret cdimage high five
[13:46]  * ogra grins :)
[13:46] <NCommander> one which will never go away due to images go up, not down. I realize its a concern, but we're simply going to have the same issue when we get a new SoC, or a new image type
[13:47] <ogra> NCommander, you will always have the ubuntu-desktop task you can install
[13:47] <asac> so is there anything to discuss? from what i understand we make a seemless transition to the new seed, by keeping desktop images enabled until we have a first working UNE image for armel with 2D launcher, right?
[13:47] <ogra> even more if we get a new SoC
[13:47] <ogra> yeah
[13:47] <asac> ok
[13:47] <asac> then we all know where we are heading ;)
[13:47] <NCommander> Are we going to transition people from desktop to UNE on the upgrade usecase?
[13:48]  * ogra doesnt think so
[13:48] <asac> NCommander: unlikely
[13:48] <NCommander> Do we actually care about the karmic->lucid upgrade for dove and imx51?
[13:48] <persia> It wouldn't be ideal to force a transitoin.
[13:48] <ogra> NCommander, we should test them
[13:48] <asac> desktop packages are still there and in main .... so users just ride the general support wave
[13:48] <persia> Supporting upgrades is nice, if there is commonly supported hardware.
[13:48] <NCommander> persia, hence the question.
[13:49] <plars> would be good to have a metapackage to provide them the packages to update to the all the new UNE stuff, but forcing it on them would probably get some complaining
[13:49] <NCommander> Anyway, anyone have anything else to bring up on ARM Image Status?
[13:49] <ogra> plars, we have to have a task anyway
[13:49] <asac> yep
[13:49] <asac> ok so i think we can move on
[13:49] <asac> NCommander: ^
[13:50] <NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
[13:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[13:51] <mok0> Chromium was mentioned before. I suggest it should be adopted in main
[13:51] <asac> FTBFS's
[13:52] <asac> mok0: thats the plan
[13:52] <NCommander> asac, I saw you assigned a bunch :-)
[13:52] <asac> depends on various factors ;)
[13:52] <mok0> asac: ah. Great!
[13:52] <asac> yep ... so i went through all main FTBFS and assigned them to either ncommander or dyfet
[13:52] <asac> and both subscribed to both
[13:53] <asac> dont hesitate to tell me if there are FTBFS you get stuck with
[13:53] <asac> ;)
[13:53] <asac> so we can unblock them somehow
[13:53] <ogra> asac, thanks a lot for apex btw
[13:53] <asac> for univeres i am through half of the list
[13:53] <asac> with assignments
[13:53] <NCommander> asac, thanks for the ocaml upload. Upstream is looking at the bug now as well
[13:53] <asac> will do the rest
[13:53] <asac> next ...
[13:54] <ogra> well, we used to handle universe as a nice to have
[13:54] <asac> i think its important to get all armel-only build failures fixed. of course main has higher prio
[13:54] <asac> but universe is also important
[13:54] <asac> because we are the only ones with hardware to actually work on those
[13:54] <ogra> do you plan to change that  since you are actively assigning stuff ?
[13:54] <NCommander> Do we have a general goal to when to have main armel-only FTBFS free?
[13:54] <ogra> thats what we used to have
[13:54] <ogra> seems asac wants to widen that goal
[13:54] <asac> ogra: i assign them because main is almost fixed
[13:54] <persia> I think universe is all the more important considering the spec to remove binaries for anything that FTBFS.
[13:55] <asac> its still a lower prio, but its more than a nice to have
[13:55] <persia> So for *this* release, it's more important than usual to demonstrate that something *can* build.
[13:55] <asac> at least the armel-only build failures
[13:55] <NCommander> sorry
[13:55] <NCommander> I meant an Alpha 2 main-free armel-only FBFS
[13:55] <ogra> but we give MOTU tools in their hands to work on them
[13:55] <asac> right. its also more important in the light of the new toolchain
[13:55] <ScottK> Please fix libtool then as it's causing other FTBFS.
[13:55] <asac> NCommander: would be great.
[13:55] <ogra> and i'd like to see MOTU getting more knowledge here
[13:55] <asac> yes. libtool has highest prio
[13:55] <asac> i have put that on release team radar too
[13:56] <asac> and assigned NCommander to it ;)
[13:56] <ogra> if you assign them to us MOTU wont care at all
[13:56] <NCommander> asac, I was going to ask for it actually :-)
[13:56] <asac> ogra: i dont see that realistic for now
[13:56] <asac> they dont have hardware
[13:56] <ogra> thats why i wrote all these tools
[13:56] <ScottK> ogra: Without access to hardware, there isn't much we can do.
[13:56] <NCommander> dyfet, can you make my shell reappear, or should I work off jocote?
[13:56] <ogra> and blogged about it ... and set up wiki pages
[13:56] <ogra> ScottK, you can build in chroots to fix FTBFS
[13:57] <asac> ogra: well. so most i assigned now are _old_ build failures
[13:57] <asac> seems noone picked them up
[13:57] <asac> but yes, we should make a new blog post etc.
[13:57] <ogra> http://ograblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/18/juggling-your-arms-in-karmic-and-no-more-excuses/
[13:57] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ograblog.wordpress.com/2009/07/18/juggling-your-arms-in-karmic-and-no-more-excuses/
[13:57] <dyfet> ncommander: shell?  you mean on my arm?
[13:57] <NCommander> dyfet, yeah
[13:57]  * ogra wonders if anyone reads his posts on planet :P
[13:57] <NCommander> So who wants to blog to planet?
[13:57]  * NCommander has a layer of dust on his blog :-/
[13:58] <NCommander> two minute warning
[13:58] <asac> so who has a blog at all? ;)
[13:58] <asac> and who is on planet?
[13:58] <NCommander> I'm on planet
[13:58] <asac> both combined probably reduces the set of candidates ;)
[13:58] <NCommander> (both Ubuntu & Debian)
[13:58] <asac> i am on planet too
[13:58]  * ogra too
[13:58] <asac> ok so we have three
[13:58] <ogra> and i regulary blog about my armel tools and achievements
[13:58] <StevenK> Or heating houses
[13:59] <asac> lets discuss communication offline.
[13:59] <ogra> heh, yeah :)
[13:59] <NCommander> [action] ogra, asac, NCommander to blog on planet about ARM work
[13:59] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra, asac, NCommander to blog on planet about ARM work
[13:59] <ogra> right, time is up
[13:59] <NCommander> :-)
[13:59] <NCommander> anything else quickly?
[14:00] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[14:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:59.
[14:00] <NCommander> argh
[14:00]  * NCommander was a minute early
[14:00] <asac> NCommander: dyfet: try to work together on the FTBFS ;)
[14:00] <ogra> [action] ^^^ :)
[14:01] <asac> NCommander: also ... do you want me to monitor that list for you and do assignments in future or will both of you coordinate that together?
[14:01] <asac> also consider me part of that FTBFS effort ;)
[14:02] <asac> thanks all!
[14:04] <asac> dmart: http://pastebin.com/f10c0fe94
[14:04] <asac> thats hte list of packages not yet touched
[14:04] <asac> i didnt exclude "arch all" packages yet
[14:05] <persia> asac: Is that different from http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/unchanged/unchanged_since_karmic ?
[14:05] <asac> so probably its a bit less packages not yet touched
[14:05] <asac> not sure :)
[14:05] <asac> persia: my list is just main
[14:05] <persia> OK.
[14:06] <asac> but good to know
[14:59] <kees> \o
[15:02] <pitti> o/
[15:02] <pitti> mdz, cjwatson?
[15:03] <mdz> pitti: hi
[15:03] <mdz> #startmeeting
[15:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is mdz.
[15:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:03] <mdz> [link] https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/WritingObjectives
[15:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/WritingObjectives
[15:03] <cjwatson> hello
[15:03] <mdz> er
[15:03] <mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
[15:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
[15:04] <mdz> one day the X clipboard will work as we expect...
[15:04] <mdz> I see cjwatson, pitti, kees
[15:04] <pitti> both  of them? :-)
[15:05] <mdz> sabdfl is on holiday
[15:05] <mdz> I don't know about Keybuk
[15:05] <pitti> he was online yesterday
[15:05] <mdz> pitti: I thought there was only one clipboard, plus the selection buffer
[15:05] <pitti> ScottK: are you here? (your agenda item is pretty much the only one that we have)
[15:06] <ScottK> I'm heree
[15:06] <ScottK> here even
[15:06] <pitti> ScottK: happy new year!
[15:06] <mdz> [topic] Review action items from previous meeting
[15:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review action items from previous meeting
[15:06] <ScottK> Happy New Year.
[15:06] <mdz> mdz to drive election for DMB, based on existing members of TB and MC
[15:06] <mdz> voting is in progress now
[15:06]  * persia very much appreciated the second call for votes: something rarely seen in these polls.
[15:06] <mdz> 77 votes cast out of 146 eligible voters
[15:07] <mdz> the vote will end in 13 days, one week from Monday
[15:07] <mdz> persia: it occurred to me in doing this that there is not a lot of guidance available to our governance teams as to how to conduct elections
[15:07] <mdz> different teams have done it in different ways
[15:07] <mdz> perhaps something for the CC to consider
[15:07] <mdz> next action:
[15:08] <mdz> persia to ask CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors, as part of the DMB/MC merge
[15:08] <mdz> I saw the request happen
[15:08] <mdz> persia: have you received any response?
[15:08] <persia> I haven't seen any follow-up.  I'm planning to ask at the CC meeting on the 20th if I haven't seen anything by then (I'm not confident I'll be awake for today's meeting).
[15:09] <persia> Err, 19th.
[15:09] <mdz> persia: perhaps someone who will be awake could proxy for you at today's meeting? that would be better than waiting 2 weeks
[15:09] <ScottK> mdz: As far as how to do elections, I think the move to use CIVS is a huge step forward for the project.
[15:09] <persia> mdz: I'll seek someone for that.
[15:09] <mdz> persia: when is it?
[15:10] <persia> 21 UTC
[15:10] <mdz> ScottK: yes, but it's only one part of the process. I had to make it up as I went along in terms of soliciting and confirming nominations, establishing who was eligible, how long the vote should be, and so on
[15:10] <mdz> persia: so somebody in the US would be best. kees?
[15:11] <persia> mdz: I think it needs to be someone on MC: likely nixternal or nhandler
[15:11] <ScottK> mdz: Certainly.  I think it makes sense to have it documented and some standardization.
[15:11] <mdz> persia: ok, I'll leave it with you then
[15:11] <mdz> [topic] MOTU direction (ScottK, cjwatson)
[15:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU direction (ScottK, cjwatson)
[15:11] <ScottK> I didn't put this on the agenda for today ...
[15:12] <ScottK> cjwatson: ?
[15:12] <persia> It was carry-over from the last meeting.
[15:12] <pitti> I carried it over from the last meeting, since we didn't get to it
[15:12] <ScottK> Ah.
[15:12] <pitti> I just didn't want to drop it
[15:12] <cjwatson> as far as I'm concerned this is a "guilt item"
[15:12] <mdz> we're looking for a progress check
[15:12] <cjwatson> unless ScottK has done more than I have ...
[15:12] <mdz> any progress since 22 december?
[15:13] <cjwatson> I have been on holiday since 22 Dec, mostly
[15:13] <mdz> what needs to happen next? do you two need any help?
[15:13] <ScottK> Well we do have this action and persia has helpfully drafted some material, but cjwatson and I have not had a chance to discuss it.
[15:13] <ScottK> So unless he's done something I'm not aware of, I think it needs to be pushed.
[15:13] <cjwatson> ScottK: do you have the URL for persia's draft?
[15:13] <persia> There isn't a URL.
[15:13] <ScottK> cjwatson: He emailed it to you and me.
[15:13] <cjwatson> oh, ok, I'll dig that out
[15:14] <mdz> he mentioned that he updated:
[15:14] <mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
[15:14] <mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard
[15:14] <mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
[15:14] <mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[15:14] <mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Council
[15:14] <mdz> I don't know if that's the same thing ScottK is talking about
[15:14] <ScottK> No.
[15:14] <persia> No, that was what I did as a result of the questions about DMB/MC from last meeting.
[15:14] <cjwatson> I have the gobby dump from UDS which AIUI needs to be written up properly and presented to the TB.
[15:15] <ScottK> Yes, and persia to a stab at writing it up for us.
[15:15] <ScottK> Message-ID: <9bd2f8971001031949u15ba5fc4k20cb9abe0bacff8@mail.gmail.com>
[15:16] <cjwatson> I'm going to go ahead and dump that into the wiki, and work from there
[15:17] <cjwatson> I don't think there's anything else for this meeting, we just need to not forget it
[15:17] <ScottK> Agreed.
[15:17] <cjwatson> I'll try to have a bit more progress for next time
[15:18] <mdz> ok
[15:18] <mdz> actions?
[15:18] <cjwatson> just carry over
[15:19] <mdz> cjwatson to write up gobby notes from UDS?
[15:19] <cjwatson> [action] ScottK+cjwatson to pull joint fingers out and write up proposal
[15:19] <ScottK> I think it's just work we know we have to do.
[15:19] <mdz> [action] ScottK+cjwatson to pull joint fingers out and write up proposal
[15:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK+cjwatson to pull joint fingers out and write up proposal
[15:19] <ScottK> Sounds good.
[15:19] <mdz> [topic] AOB
[15:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[15:19] <mdz> anything else?
[15:20] <pitti> the next meeting will be the constituting one with the new board, right?
[15:21] <pitti> so I guess meeting lead rotation, meeting time, etc. should be discussed in that meeting
[15:21] <persia> Should not a date, time, and lead for that meeting be set at this one though?
[15:22] <cjwatson> we might as well just use the same time, and let the new board decide on what's convenient for them
[15:22] <cjwatson> I'm not sure we can know a lead before knowing who's going to be on the board :)
[15:22] <mdz> we could select 3 ranked options, and since it is a 7/9 election we could be guaranteed to get one right ;-)
[15:22] <persia> I was thinking someone could volunteer to chair, and if they didn't happen to be on the board, act as a facilitator for that meeting alone.
[15:23] <cjwatson> I can do that
[15:23] <mdz> I think the "old" board should turn up at the next meeting regardless, to help with continuity
[15:23] <mdz> at least some of us
[15:23] <mdz> I will be traveling to a time zone which would make participation difficult
[15:24] <pitti> I'm happy to join that meeting
[15:24] <mdz> [agreed] cjwatson and pitti will participate in the next DMB meeting regardless of the election outcome
[15:24] <MootBot> AGREED received:  cjwatson and pitti will participate in the next DMB meeting regardless of the election outcome
[15:24] <mdz> you can work out what to do about a chair between yourselves ;-)
[15:24] <mdz> any other business?
[15:25] <mdz> please remember to vote if you haven't already
[15:25] <mdz> ok, thanks all
[15:25] <mdz> #endmeeting
[15:25] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:25.
[15:25] <pitti> thanks all
[17:03]  * apw zones in
[17:03]  * cking_ is here
[17:03]  * ogasawara waves
[17:03]  * smb is there
[17:03]  * manjo waves
[17:03] <rtg> bjf: yo
[17:03] <bjf> Roll Call
[17:04]  * apw appears again
[17:04] <bjf> #startmeeting
[17:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 11:04. The chair is bjf.
[17:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:04] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:04] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
[17:04] <bjf> NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
[17:04] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Action Item: amitk to meet with keybuk on automated boot tests
[17:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[17:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action Item: amitk to meet with keybuk on automated boot tests
[17:04]  * jjohansen fades in
[17:05] <bjf> amitk, you are up
[17:05] <ogasawara> I think he's on holiday?
[17:05] <ogasawara> nm, that was yesterday
[17:05] <bjf> we'll skip him for now
[17:06] <bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
[17:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
[17:06] <ogasawara> Release Meeting Bugs (1 bug, 4 blueprints) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
[17:06] <ogasawara> Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (23 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
[17:06] <ogasawara>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (all In Progress) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
[17:06] <ogasawara>  * 1 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (tracked in release meeting) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
[17:06] <ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
[17:06] <ogasawara>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21444
[17:06] <ogasawara> * Release Targeted Bugs (88 bugs) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
[17:06] <ogasawara>  * 8 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux
[17:06] <ogasawara>  * 3 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51
[17:06] <ogasawara>  * 1 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2
[17:06] <ogasawara>  * 1 linux-mvl-dove bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove
[17:06] <ogasawara> ..
[17:06] <bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
[17:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
[17:06] <ogasawara> Milestoned Features - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04
[17:07] <ogasawara> nothing kernel specific listed there
[17:07] <ogasawara> ..
[17:07] <bjf> any questions on any of this? is that pgraner guy around?
[17:07] <pgraner> bjf: sorry I'm here
[17:07] <pgraner> bjf: expenses are due today ... :-)
[17:08] <pgraner> bjf: no questions
[17:08] <bjf> pgraner, thanks, moving on ...
[17:08] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
[17:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
[17:08] <ogasawara> bjf: nothing new to update
[17:08] <ogasawara> ..
[17:08] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
[17:08] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
[17:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
[17:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
[17:09] <apw> no change since last meeting.  mostly complete
[17:09] <apw> ..
[17:09] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
[17:09] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
[17:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
[17:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
[17:09] <apw> config checker is now in and checking things
[17:09] <apw> we have a few config changes coming down the pipe from other teams which are going in
[17:09] <apw> otherwise quiet
[17:09] <apw> ..
[17:10] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
[17:10] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
[17:10] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
[17:10] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
[17:10] <apw> i had a poke about with a nouveau drop which may be compatible with our tree.  trying to acertain if it would be good as a default
[17:11] <apw> the main drop is definatly a 'lbm' style component
[17:11] <apw> ..
[17:11] <tjaalton> why?
[17:11] <tjaalton> why not in the main package
[17:11] <bjf> sconklin, New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
[17:11] <apw> cause it has dependancies on updating the whole of drm
[17:12] <tjaalton> no, four commits thats all
[17:12] <apw> those 4 commits are big, and those commits do not apply without other patches
[17:12] <tjaalton> ok then
[17:12] <apw> the version which was applied resonably well to .32 was an older nouveau drop
[17:13] <apw> which is what i was referring to previously.  not had a chance to test it yet
[17:13] <apw> ..
[17:13] <bjf> sconklin, you have anything to add?
[17:13] <sconklin> no
[17:13] <sconklin> ..
[17:13] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
[17:13] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
[17:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
[17:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
[17:14] <manjo> no change there since last meeting
[17:14] <manjo> ..
[17:14] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
[17:14] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
[17:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
[17:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
[17:14] <jjohansen> Upstream AppArmor update incoming today, just cleaning up some commit messages.  I still need to file the compiler bug that was tripping me up
[17:14] <jjohansen> The kernel side of policy optimizations is done, I should have user side dfa
[17:14] <jjohansen> minimization in by the end of the week.  If there is time the table packing
[17:14] <jjohansen> part of optimization can be done for alpha3
[17:15] <apw> jjohansen, ok will look for it tommorrow
[17:15] <jjohansen> ..
[17:15] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
[17:15] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
[17:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
[17:15] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
[17:15] <apw> 2.6.32.2 brought in some regressions in performance
[17:15] <apw> (boot performance) those turn out to be present already but triggered more often in this combination
[17:16] <apw> i think i have this nailed, an interaction between acpi battery and hpet
[17:16] <apw> am testing a couple of patches to sort it out now
[17:16] <apw> this may give us another 0.05 as a bonus
[17:16] <apw> ..
[17:16] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
[17:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
[17:17] <bjf> I have my "crack-of-the-day" builds going. I've sent out email to a few of the alsa folks letting them know
[17:17] <bjf> about them.
[17:17] <bjf> ..
[17:17] <apw> when might they be announced publically ?
[17:17] <bjf> apw, I guess I can do that any time
[17:18] <bjf> apw, I'll try to get an email out today
[17:18] <bjf> ..
[17:18] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
[17:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
[17:18] <bjf> skipping
[17:18] <bjf> ..
[17:18] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
[17:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
[17:18] <jjohansen> I am working on an EC2 update that should land today
[17:19] <apw> jj is that against the ec2 branch in lucid?
[17:19] <jjohansen> yeah
[17:19] <jjohansen> just pulling in suses updates to the patches
[17:19] <smb> Dapper:     2.6.15-55.81 (security)
[17:19] <smb> Hardy:      2.6.24-26.64 (security)
[17:19] <smb> -LBM:       2.6.24-26.35 (proposed)[26]  0/ 1 verifications done
[17:19] <smb> -LUM:       2.6.24-26.44 (proposed)[26]  0/ 1 verifications done
[17:19] <smb> Intrepid:   2.6.27-16.44 (security)
[17:19] <smb> Jaunty:     2.6.28-17.58 (security)
[17:19] <smb> Karmic:     2.6.31-17.54 (proposed)[26]  9/19 verifications done
[17:19] <smb> -LBM:       2.6.31-17.19 (proposed)[26]  0/ 1 verifications done
[17:19] <smb> -fsl-imx51: 2.6.31-107.18 (proposed)[18] 16/34 verifications done
[17:19] <smb> -mvl-dove:  2.6.31-210.21 (proposed)[15] 16/35 verifications done
[17:19] <smb> Proposed kernels could move to updates soon. Trying to get some feedback
[17:19] <smb> on the arm kernels to preferably move them together with the main kernel.
[17:19] <smb> The next upstream stable (2.6.31.10, 2.6.32.3) are coming up.
[17:19] <smb> oops
[17:19] <jjohansen> :)
[17:19] <apw> ok i'll hold the upload for now ...
[17:20] <jjohansen> ..
[17:20] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
[17:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Lucid (apw)
[17:21] <apw> i've recently applied 2.6.32.2 but had regressions.  those look resolved.  would be uploading today, but the compilers are building right now
[17:21] <apw> so will have to wait for those to complete.
[17:21] <apw> REMINDER: you want anything in Alpha-2 we need it in and uploaded by monday at the very latest
[17:21] <apw> if its going to be monday make sure i know as i want to upload friday
[17:21] <apw> with people in the air etc.
[17:21] <apw> ..
[17:22] <bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
[17:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (gnarl/smb)
[17:22] <bjf> I think we got this already :-)
[17:22] <bjf> a
[17:22] <smb> as above
[17:22] <bjf> anything to add?
[17:22] <smb> yeah, somehow return key has a live of its own
[17:22] <smb> nope
[17:22] <smb> ..
[17:23] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
[17:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
[17:23] <ogasawara> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
[17:23] <ogasawara> == regression-potential (up 10) ==
[17:23] <ogasawara> 26 lucid bugs
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential+lucid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:23] <ogasawara> == regression-update (up 2)==
[17:23] <ogasawara> 7 karmic bugs
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:23] <ogasawara> 5 jaunty bugs
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+jaunty&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:23] <ogasawara> 2 intrepid bugs
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+intrepid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:23] <ogasawara> 1 hardy bug
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update+hardy&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:23] <ogasawara> == regression-release (down 2)==
[17:23] <ogasawara> 58 karmic bugs
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:23] <ogasawara> 22 jaunty bugs
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+jaunty&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:23] <ogasawara> 12 intrepid bugs
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+intrepid&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:23] <ogasawara> 4 hardy bugs
[17:23] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release+hardy&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:24] <ogasawara> == regression-proposed (no change)==
[17:24] <ogasawara> 1 karmic bug
[17:24] <ogasawara>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-proposed+karmic&field.tags_combinator=ALL
[17:24] <ogasawara> ..
[17:24] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
[17:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
[17:24] <ogasawara> Due to the holiday, there wasn't much activity the previous bug day:
[17:24] <ogasawara> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20091222.html
[17:24] <ogasawara> The next bug day should be next week but we'll be sprinting.  I'll postpone it to Tues Jan 19.
[17:24] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20091222.html
[17:24] <ogasawara> ..
[17:24] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
[17:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
[17:25] <jjohansen> Server team would like us to get a body looking at Bug #499785
[17:25] <ogasawara> jjohansen: I was going to send a patch for that shortly
[17:25] <apw> ogasawara, can you get that on the list
[17:25] <jjohansen> ogasawara: nice, thanks
[17:25] <pgraner> bjf: no meeting next week since we are sprinting?
[17:26] <bjf> Note: there will not be a meeting next week, the kernel team will be in London buried under snow.
[17:26] <bjf> pgraner, you beat me to it
[17:26] <bjf> :-)
[17:26] <apw> heh in the airport burried ...
[17:26] <bjf> anything else?
[17:26] <bjf> thanks everyone
[17:26] <bjf> #endmeeting
[17:26] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:26.
[17:26] <apw> bjf thanks
[19:18] <hlippek>  
[19:25] <alonswartz> hey folks, wasn't the EMEA meeting meant to start about 25 minutes ago?
[19:25] <nixternal> alonswartz: according to my cal, 20:00, but it very well could be wrong
[19:25] <nixternal> because it also says 22:00 for the CC, but our agenda says 21:00
[19:26] <nixternal> silly Google calendar is probably foobarring me, and possibly your too?
[19:26] <alonswartz> nixternal: according to the wiki page: The next meeting is scheduled for January 5th 2010, 19:00 UTC
[19:26] <nixternal> hrmm
[19:27] <LirazSiri> If you follow the link it translates into local time. That was 30 minutes ago. Strange.
[19:27] <nixternal> right, but the google calendar for the meeting says 20:00 :/
[19:27] <nixternal> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
[19:30] <alonswartz> nixternal: the calendar doesn't seem in sync with the wiki page, oh well... so we start in 30 minutes ?
[19:30] <LirazSiri> Alright, so there was a mistake and the meeting is still today but half an hour later than the schedule on the wiki site.
[19:41] <BlackZ> the EMEA meeting will start at 21:00
[19:42] <LirazSiri> 21:00 UTC?
[19:42] <BlackZ> nope, 20:00 UTC
[19:44] <BlackZ> seems that there's a mistake on the wiki
[19:44] <BlackZ> anyway, the EMEA meeting will start at 20:00 UTC
[20:02] <popey> yes, it seems there is
[20:03]  * popey pings forumsmatthew / phanatic / Seveas / stgraber / phanatic 
[20:03] <Seveas> pong
[20:04] <forumsmatthew> I'm here
[20:04] <phanatic> pong
[20:04] <popey> Apologies for getting the wiki wrong. I suspect that was my fault
[20:05] <forumsmatthew> stuff happens
[20:05] <Seveas> shall we begin?
[20:05] <popey> Go!
[20:05] <forumsmatthew> yes
[20:06] <Seveas> ok, BlackZ you're up. Please introduce yourself
[20:06] <BlackZ> Hi all, my name is Lorenzo De Liso, I'm 19 years old, I'm Italian, and I live in Italy. I'm a security consultant (I work in a Italian datacenter). I use ubuntu since 3 years about, and I like it. I study informatic enginner on the university Federico II in Naples. I worked and I work again to some bugs, I help to translate ubuntu in Italian, I help in ubuntu's Italian forum, I translate the Italian ubuntu wiki and I help in #ubuntu-it.
[20:08] <Seveas> -1. There's no information about your contributions on your wikipage, launcpad karma is low, indicating limited contributions. Testimonials added by yourself, which is very bad...
[20:08] <forumsmatthew> agreed -1
[20:09] <popey> Yeah, -1, I'd certainly like to see more contributions listed and testimonials added by those people who are listed
[20:10] <Seveas> phanatic, ?
[20:10] <phanatic> sorry, i was on the phone. -1
[20:10] <Seveas> ok, that's -4. BlackZ please make sure your wikipage is fully prepared next time :)
[20:11] <Seveas> Ioneye seems to be missing
[20:11] <Seveas> Shezif as well
[20:11] <Seveas> LirazSiri, you're up
[20:11] <LirazSiri> Hi everybody
[20:11]  * stgraber waves
[20:11] <LirazSiri> I'm 28 years old, from Israel. A software engineer by day and open source enthusiast by night.
[20:11] <Seveas> hey stgraber!
[20:12] <popey> LirazSiri: we've spoken before haven't we
[20:12] <hlippek> hi all
[20:12] <LirazSiri> yep
[20:12] <popey> As I recall we rejected your application last time
[20:12] <popey> on the grounds that we wanted to see more contributions to core ubuntu itself?
[20:12] <Seveas> yes, last time we said -1, considering contributions to TurnKey not to be contributions to Ubuntu
[20:12] <popey> if my memory is right
[20:12] <LirazSiri> hey guys
[20:12] <LirazSiri> the endorsements are stronger now
[20:13] <forumsmatthew> You do have two testimonials this time. John's is pretty good. The other is helpful, if a little lukewarm.
[20:13] <LirazSiri> I've been a contributing member to the news team for over a year now. Responsible for 5 sections
[20:13] <Seveas> but the actual contributions haven't changed, have they?
[20:14] <LirazSiri> They have evolved somewhat. TurnKey has gotten closer to Ubuntu. We've been collaborating with Ubuntu developers and discussing appliance development on the list.
[20:14] <forumsmatthew> I guess it is going to depend on whether we consider helping with the weekly newsletter sufficient community involvement for membership
[20:14] <Seveas> I've seen that and that's really encouraging LirazSiri
[20:14] <Seveas> And sabdfl also said positive words about turnkey
[20:14] <LirazSiri> On the subject of TurnKey's relationship with Ubuntu, you can read the endorsements on Alon's wiki page
[20:15] <Seveas> those testimonials emphasize on "hope to work closer with..."
[20:16] <Seveas> which is what I'd like to see as well, a bit closer collaboration
[20:16] <LirazSiri> forumsmatthew: you have in the past granted membership to members of the Ubuntu news team and I've been doing that for much longer than the 3 months of sustained contribution described in the membership criteria
[20:16] <Seveas> LirazSiri, but never based on news contributions alone I believe
[20:16] <LirazSiri> Every week, I maintain all the statistics, package and security updates, etc.
[20:17] <Seveas> LirazSiri, how much time do you spend on that each week?
[20:17] <LirazSiri> That depends on the week
[20:17] <LirazSiri> After releases it can take longer
[20:17] <LirazSiri> because there are lots and lots of updates
[20:18] <Seveas> how about this week or last?
[20:18] <LirazSiri> About an hour
[20:18] <Seveas> wait, that's unfair due to christmas
[20:18] <LirazSiri> on average
[20:18] <Seveas> to be perfectly blunt, one hour per week is not much as a contribution
[20:18] <LirazSiri> well I divide my time between that and other projects
[20:19] <popey> other ubuntu projects?
[20:19] <Seveas> and I realize turnkeylinux is your bigger contribution, but I'm not sure whether that actually 'counts' for us
[20:19] <LirazSiri> personally I feel TurnKey is a much larger contribution to Ubuntu. As the sabdfl stated, it's a new kind of contribution we're pioneering, so it's a bit difficult to get endorsements
[20:19] <LirazSiri> there isn't an established framework.
[20:19] <alonswartz> I hope you don't mind me dropping in, but TurnKey Linux a sort of LoCo for server appliances. Instead of helping introduce users to Ubuntu on a geographical basis, we help introduce users to Ubuntu by helping them quickly setup and deploy Ubuntu as a server platform. Through TurnKey, we have introduced tens of thousands of new users to Ubuntu as server platform (over 100,000 downloads).
[20:20] <popey> I have downloaded turnkey
[20:20] <popey> a couple of images
[20:20] <LirazSiri> which ones?
[20:20] <phanatic> that's about 60 hours total since you've started
[20:20] <popey> an smb server and another
[20:20] <forumsmatthew> I certainly don't mind, alonswartz . What you are saying is helpful.
[20:20] <popey> i cant recall
[20:20] <popey> I booted them up and played, liked what I saw, and shut them down and deleted them
[20:21] <popey> that's not to say I didnt like or enjoy the work you do
[20:21] <popey> merely that I had no use for them
[20:21] <popey> so i wouldn't hold tooooo much sway with 100000 downloads :)
[20:21] <forumsmatthew> do you see turnkey as a part of the Ubuntu community, an insider, or as a project that stands alongside Ubuntu?
[20:21] <LirazSiri> that's still great, a lot of our users do that
[20:21] <popey> sure, it's a great way to introduce ubuntu appliances to people
[20:21] <popey> and i think thats valuable work
[20:21] <LirazSiri> thanks!
[20:22] <Seveas> dammit, I can't find the thread about TKL
[20:22] <popey> in the same way that dell selling laptops running ubuntu is valuable work
[20:22] <Seveas> popey, do you recall whether sabdfl said that we could consider contributions to TKL contributions to Ubuntu?
[20:22] <popey> if I had more time I'd evaluate it properly
[20:22] <LirazSiri> I can find the quote from the sadbfl if it helps
[20:22] <Seveas> LirazSiri, it would
[20:23] <LirazSiri> Note that we're also partnering up with Canonical to offer all TurnKey appliances through the new Ubuntu cloud initiative
[20:23] <forumsmatthew> things that stand along side are helpful, but not integral, that is, the main project may benefit from their existence, but won't necessarily cease to exist or be harmed if the project disappears
[20:23] <forumsmatthew> I'm looking for a balance
[20:23] <popey> "Liraz, you are a valued member of the community, and that is true even if it takes a little while to build the case for Ubuntu membership. It takes time to establish yourself in something the scale of Ubuntu - especially if you are pioneering a new kind of contribution, which I think you are. If you were working mainly in an established area, there would be a network of folks who could immediately comment on your contribution. Since you
[20:23] <popey> is what mark said
[20:23] <LirazSiri> Ok I found the quote
[20:23] <Seveas> popey, that got cut off at  'since yo'
[20:24] <LirazSiri> let me cut and paste and paste the relevant part..
[20:24] <popey> ". Since you aren't, you need to build that network, and raise the profile of your work."
[20:24] <popey> also...
[20:24] <Seveas> one more thing, for no other external project or canonical partner do we consider contribusions to them contributions to ubuntu
[20:24] <popey> "In principle, I think building Turnkey *could well* turn out to be a great contribution to Ubuntu. If the Turnkey folks contribute patches, share war stories about EC2, build common infrastructure, participate in UDS etc, then I would say we should recognise that contribution. "
[20:24] <popey> ^^ from Mark
[20:24] <Seveas> thanks popey
[20:25] <forumsmatthew> thanks, popey
[20:25]  * popey hugs gmail
[20:25] <LirazSiri> where is that from? I found another quote
[20:25] <LirazSiri> I didn't know Mark spoke about TurnKey twice...
[20:25] <forumsmatthew> so, based on that last sentence of Mark's comment, how much of that is happening
[20:25] <alonswartz> popey: I've never seen that last quote... ?
[20:25] <forumsmatthew> patches? infrastructure? UDS even?
[20:27] <popey> I have seen discussion of Turnkey on the devel mailing list very recently, talking about webmail.
[20:27] <popey> er, webmin
[20:27] <Seveas> erk
[20:27] <Seveas> webmin
[20:27] <alonswartz> popey: that discussion got started off talking about appliance development
[20:27] <popey> heh
[20:27] <LirazSiri> guys, I'm trying to copy paste but have trouble with my application so I'm going to restart it. Back in a jiffy
[20:28] <alonswartz> which was in reply to a previous thread regarding developing appliances as deb packages
[20:28] <popey> sure, lets not get too bogged down in one specific discussion on  -devel list
[20:28] <Seveas> yeah, you clearly are doing that the correct way
[20:29] <popey> the criteria for membership is 'significant and sustained' contribution to ubuntu
[20:29] <alonswartz> we has just released tklpatch, a tool to patch and create appliances
[20:30] <Seveas> alonswartz, have you ever thought of using puppet to create appliances?
[20:30] <popey> I'm keen for us to not spend the entire meeting on Turnkey (as we did last time)
[20:30] <Seveas> popey, me too, I'm just waiting for liraz to return
[20:30] <Seveas> ah, speak of the devil :)
[20:30] <alonswartz> Seveas: its not the best fit, but lets talk about that later (i agree with popey)
[20:30] <LirazSiri> OK, hopefully this will work now
[20:31] <LirazSiri> Liraz, you are a valued member of the community, and that is true even if it takes a little while to build the case for Ubuntu membership. It takes time to establish yourself in something the scale of Ubuntu - especially if you are pioneering a new kind of contribution, which I think you are. If you were working mainly in an established area, there would be a network of folks who could...
[20:31] <LirazSiri> ...immediately comment on your contribution. Since you aren't, you need to build that network, and raise the profile of your work.
[20:31] <LirazSiri> Others have gone before you in this. The IRC community now has folks devoted to nourishing that part of the community, as do the Forums, translation, documentation, marketing, development, QA etc. Each of those communities had good leaders who now help in the recognition of the people who do great work there. Without those leaders, it would be impossible for the regional membership boards,...
[20:31] <LirazSiri> ...or worse, the CC, to recognise the full diversity of contribution that goes into something like 9.04. So, please be patient. The criterion for membership if "substantial and sustained contribution", there is no rush. It is NOT a popularity contest
[20:31] <LirazSiri> ^^^ Mark
[20:31] <Seveas> yeah, I've seen that quote and it confirms my opinion
[20:31] <Seveas> ok, summing up my opinion: I think TurnKey is great, but am -1 on membership for LirazSiri (and alonswartz for that matter). This would easily change to a +1 if in the mean time sabdfl/CC consider contributions to TurnKey to be contributions to Ubuntu as well.
[20:32] <forumsmatthew> if we could find a way to document that (or how) Turnkey development directly contributes to the Ubuntu community
[20:32] <popey> Ok, so the specific recommendations to take away from that are 'build that network' and 'raise the profile of your work'  (within the Ubuntu community)
[20:32] <forumsmatthew> doh, you beat me to it
[20:32] <forumsmatthew> I echo Seveas comments above
[20:32] <LirazSiri> that's what we've been doing with the discussions in ubuntu-devel
[20:32] <LirazSiri> But there's no way to currently integrate the projects unfortunately
[20:32] <Seveas> so basically, I want you to go back to Mark or the CC Liraz. I think you've made progress but I feel this is above us to decide
[20:32] <forumsmatthew> agreed
[20:33] <popey> LirazSiri: i see _one_ thread on ubuntu-devel with your name on it
[20:33] <LirazSiri> that's a pretty extensive thread popey
[20:33] <forumsmatthew> I'm -1 for now, but hope to see that change with some further community integration
[20:33] <popey> its 12 mails
[20:33] <popey> thats not an extensive thread
[20:33] <Seveas> popey, stgraber, phanatic: can I please get a +1/-1.
[20:33] <forumsmatthew> (and also for alonswartz for the moment, since he is also to be considered shortly)
[20:34] <LirazSiri> doesn't the two contributions together count though?
[20:34] <popey> two?
[20:34] <Seveas> -1 on alonswartz as well for the same reason. It's not a we-dont-want-you -1, but a not-sure-what-to-do -1
[20:34] <LirazSiri> I have received a strong endorsement from Ubuntu News editor?
[20:35] <forumsmatthew> LirazSiri, the UWN is useful and appreciated, but I can't think of a single instance where we conferred membership with that as the SOLE or MAIN community contribution.
[20:35] <LirazSiri> I'm thinking maybe volunteering on a regular basis for a year shouldn't be discounted so quickly. Especially in combination with other contributions. Even if they are a bit out of the normal framework
[20:35] <forumsmatthew> If we can document the addition of TKL as a part of the wider Ubuntu community, that would be great
[20:35] <LirazSiri> forumsmatthew: but my contributi
[20:35] <LirazSiri> sorry cut in mid sentence
[20:36] <LirazSiri> anyhow. its a judgment call. I feel that my previous rejection raised the bar is creating some resistance
[20:36] <popey> not at all
[20:37] <forumsmatthew> not really
[20:37] <alonswartz> forumsmatthew: what do you consider the "wider ubuntu community" ?
[20:37] <popey> we look at each application individually
[20:37] <forumsmatthew> things which are specific to Ubuntu and not potentially side projects with only a light affiliation
[20:37] <Seveas> popey, stgraber, phanatic: can I please get a +1/-1. We have more candidates to come and not much time.
[20:38] <phanatic> LirazSiri: the problem is that we don't know how to judge TKL involvement, and your UWN contribution was a total of ca. 60 hours (according to yourself), which is far from enough in my book. so it's a -1 from me.
[20:38] <forumsmatthew> TKL is wonderful, but we can't yet document it is internal to the Ubuntu community, only that it benefits as a project that stands along side
[20:38] <popey> I will -1 for now. I would like to see more contribution to ubuntu from TKL
[20:38] <LirazSiri> forumsmatthew: if Alon and I traveled all over the world and helped thousands of people set up Ubuntu on the server, I don't think anyone would say that isn't enough
[20:39] <stgraber> I'm going to -1 on this one until we know how to judge TKL contributions and Ubuntu News contributions alone don't seem enough for membership (at least for me)
[20:39] <LirazSiri> I don't think we should get discounted because we've figured out a more efficient way of doing exactly that...
[20:39] <Seveas> ok thanks guys
[20:39] <forumsmatthew> does the development work on TKL happen in a way that contributes directly to Ubuntu, or is that a wonderful side effect? We are not qualified to judge, and that is the issue, LirazSiri
[20:39] <popey> LirazSiri: perhaps you should look at partner status?
[20:39] <popey> thats what other vendors of products do
[20:39] <LirazSiri> we're not a vendor, we're a sister project
[20:39] <Seveas> LirazSiri, please talk to the CC and ask them whether contributions to TKL should be seen as contributions to Ubuntu. Pending that decision, your application is now being rejected I'm afraid
[20:40] <Seveas> hlippek, you're up next, please introduce yourself
[20:40] <LirazSiri> Alright. Thanks anyway. Cheers!
[20:40] <Seveas> hlippek seems to be missing
[20:40] <hlippek> hi my name is hendrik im 29 years. living in haburg and work in softwaredevelopment for 5 years now
[20:40] <Seveas> ah apologies
[20:41] <forumsmatthew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
[20:41] <forumsmatthew> please read this and follow the directions under preparing your application
[20:41] <Seveas> -1 please read that wikipage forumsmatthew just linked and prepare yourself for these meetings
[20:42] <phanatic> i'm afraid it's a -1 from me as well
[20:42] <forumsmatthew> to make it official -1
[20:42] <popey> hlippek: I'd like to see some testimonials, and indication of a sustained contribution to Ubuntu on your wiki page please... -1 for now..
[20:43] <hlippek> right im very new in the comunity
[20:43] <stgraber> -1
[20:43] <popey> great to have you here hlippek !
[20:43] <forumsmatthew> no problem, please come back when you are prepared
[20:43] <forumsmatthew> :)
[20:43] <popey> keep up the great work, and come back to us in maybe 3-6 months
[20:43] <popey> we always need new blood :)
[20:43] <Seveas> alonswartz is up next. forumsmatthew and myself already voted -1 because his application is based on TKL as well
[20:44] <alonswartz> did you even read my wiki page guys?
[20:44] <Seveas> alonswartz, I have
[20:44] <forumsmatthew> yes
[20:44] <alonswartz> in the past i worked with zul to get the confconsole into karmic
[20:44] <phanatic> alonswartz: i did, you have very good testimonials
[20:45] <alonswartz> and with soren on a number of issues
[20:45] <alonswartz> wrote a library that will be included in the ec2-init package
[20:45] <Seveas> I know you've done more non-TKL contributions than Liraz, but I'd consider TKL a key part of it
[20:46] <alonswartz> yes, i too consider it a key part
[20:46] <Seveas> besides that, membership applications based on packaging are better directed to the motu council as they can judge these contributions better
[20:46] <alonswartz> as we are trying to bring the projects closer together...
[20:46] <Seveas> so the -1 from me means "I don't know what to do" and not "I don't want you"
[20:46] <hlippek> ok, i havent read already about the time of contribution. but ill stii be active in the community
[20:46]  * forumsmatthew repeats what Seveas just said
[20:46] <popey> thanks hlippek
[20:47] <alonswartz> OK, thanks guys...
[20:47] <popey> the development work you seem to have done all very much revolves around TKL..
[20:48] <alonswartz> popey: does it matter?
[20:48] <alonswartz> if it benefits both ubuntu and turnkey, i don't see the problem
[20:48] <Seveas> popey, as long as it's a contribution to Ubuntu, that doesn't matter :)
[20:48] <popey> well thats my point
[20:48] <popey> how does di-live help ubuntu?
[20:48] <forumsmatthew> and what we need help establishing
[20:49] <popey> or tklpatch?
[20:49] <alonswartz> regarding di-live, there has been talk about adding support to ubuntu-server to run live
[20:49] <popey> when I said 'revolves around' I meant 'is limited to'
[20:49] <popey> ok, thats useful
[20:49] <alonswartz> which is what di-live does.
[20:50] <Seveas> with tklpatch included in ubuntu, making tkl-like applications would be easier, so that's useful
[20:50] <popey> where was that talk?
[20:50] <alonswartz> about a year ago i spoke to cjwatson
[20:50] <alonswartz> but it wasn't needed back then, it might be in the future
[20:50] <popey> right
[20:50] <popey> so a year ago (two releases of ubuntu) you had a discussion with a developer about possibly including something in the future
[20:50] <alonswartz> regarding tklpatch, ignore the name, its a generically useful tool to create appliances
[20:51] <popey> that to me isn't a sustained contribution to ubuntu
[20:51] <alonswartz> which was the basis for that long thread on ubuntu-devel
[20:51] <popey> which long thread?
[20:51] <alonswartz> the thread you referred to when talking to liraz
[20:51] <popey> the 12 mail one that has run this month?
[20:51] <popey> a year later?
[20:51] <popey> which mostly focussed on the pro/con of webmin
[20:51] <Seveas> popey, "TurnKey Linux's take on Ubuntu appliance development: KISS"
[20:52] <alonswartz> Seveas: yes, that one
[20:52] <popey> I still dont see one conversation with a developer and one small thread on -devel as a sustained contribution.
[20:52] <Seveas> 33 mails so far. More than 12 but not very long.
[20:52] <popey> hmm
[20:52] <popey> o rly
[20:52] <popey> -devel or -devel-discuss?
[20:52] <Seveas> -devel
[20:53] <popey> i see only 12 mails
[20:53] <popey> how odd
[20:53] <popey> ahh, broken thread, my bad
[20:53]  * popey stabs gmail
[20:54] <czajkowski> popey: love hate relationship with gmial tonight
[20:54] <popey> indeed
[20:55] <popey> I will go +0
[20:55] <popey> positive testimonials of potential future work, not a ringing endorsement of past achievements
[20:55] <Seveas> ooh, well said
[20:56] <popey> I truly value what TKL are doing, I think the range of VM images and the simplicity you've brought are exceptionally valuable to new users.
[20:56] <alonswartz> when you take into account introducing tens of thousands of new users to ubuntu (just like a loco), and the development work, i would think that is a sustained and considerate contribution ...
[20:56] <Seveas> let's not rehash the entire TKL discussion please
[20:56] <alonswartz> Seveas: ok
[20:56] <Seveas> stgraber, phanatic: votes please
[20:57] <popey> alonswartz: I dont believe you can use those numbers
[20:57] <popey> I am one of the people who downloaded it, and I'm already a member
[20:57] <phanatic> +0
[20:57] <popey> .. and even then I deleted the VM
[20:57] <popey> you need other ways of building a community around the product you have..
[20:58] <LirazSiri> popey: isn't that like saying that introducing people to Ubuntu in LoCos shouldn't count because you know somebody that continued using Windows XP?
[20:58] <popey> alonswartz / LirazSiri do you have a separate section on the ubuntu forums? do you have an irc channel?
[20:58] <popey> i dont follow that logic
[20:58] <Seveas> that two -1 and 2 +0
[20:58] <alonswartz> popey: we have very active forums
[20:58] <popey> I'm just arguing that apache download logs do not prove new users..
[20:58] <Seveas> Today's score for the board: terrible. No new members :(
[20:59] <forumsmatthew> agreed. rough day
[20:59] <popey> but lots of active people Seveas !
[20:59] <LirazSiri> popey: that's why we're applying for membership. We'd like to bring the two projects closer together. Even if only symbolically.
[20:59] <popey> people contributing
[20:59] <popey> you dont need membership for that LirazSiri
[20:59] <popey> I'd compare TKL to crunchbang linux
[20:59] <Seveas> does that still live?
[20:59] <czajkowski> Seveas: some months I guess are going to be like that, but good to see folks trying
[20:59] <popey> sadly not
[20:59] <popey> well, kinda
[21:00] <forumsmatthew> last month is the standard I would like to see
[21:00] <popey> TKL and Crunchbang are projects that use Ubuntu technology, but dont specifically give technology back to the core product, but do generate a population of new users
[21:00] <popey> how many users is hard to tell..
[21:01] <technoviking> The EMEA folks need a few more minutes?
[21:01] <forumsmatthew> people came prepared with great evidence and testimonials of sustained direct involvement in the Ubuntu community and that rocked. May we see that more often
[21:01] <popey> no, I dont think so
[21:01] <forumsmatthew> technoviking, I think we're done
[21:01] <LirazSiri> we know how many active users we have from the apache logs of our package archive
[21:02] <LirazSiri> If you parse the logs for archive.turnkeylinux.org, you can count unique IPs and get a good guess for how many people are actively using TurnKey
[21:02] <Seveas> yeah, our meeting is done
[21:02] <Seveas> see you next month!
[21:02] <BlackZ> don't be sad, guys :)
[21:02] <BlackZ> I will contribute again and I will prepare me well for few meetings :D
[21:02] <Seveas> technoviking, the mic is yours
[21:02] <forumsmatthew> goodbye, everyone!
[21:02] <popey> o/
[21:02] <BlackZ> thanks all ;)
[21:02] <Seveas> BlackZ, awesome :)
[21:02] <phanatic> bye everyone
[21:02] <popey> technoviking: cc isnt for another hour
[21:02] <alonswartz> thanks guys...
[21:02] <popey> according to my calendar
[21:02] <technoviking> the %^#@*#@ wiki is wrong again :)
[21:02] <Seveas> so, the next hour will just be Mike entertaining us :)
[21:02] <popey> oops
[21:02] <persia> popey: Are you sure?  I have 21:00 UTC
[21:03] <hlippek> se you in further meetings:-)
[21:03] <popey> fridge says 22:00
[21:03] <forumsmatthew> daylight savings time...the bane of humanity
[21:03] <popey> I'm happy to do either
[21:03] <pleia2> I'm here for 21
[21:03] <popey> have I messed up _two_ meeting times in one day!?
[21:03] <forumsmatthew> lol
[21:03] <Seveas> yes
[21:03] <forumsmatthew> you're just trying to make me feel better about myself
[21:03] <popey> holy cow I'm rubbish
[21:04] <popey> no, wasnt me :)
[21:04] <popey> Created by: N for Ubuntu Fridge Calendar
[21:04] <popey> whoever N is
[21:04] <pleia2> it gets messed up with DST
[21:04] <pleia2> the fridge is correct in the summer :)
[21:04] <czajkowski> technoviking: doesnt this happen a lot to you :p
[21:04] <forumsmatthew> I repeat: daylight savings time...the bane of humanity
[21:05] <czajkowski> forumsmatthew: *hugs* so true
[21:05] <forumsmatthew> :)
[21:05] <czajkowski> see if folks stick to UTC no confusion
[21:05] <technoviking> czajkowski: I'm from Indiana, I did not have daylight savings growing up:)
[21:05] <Seveas> so now you do double DST to compensate? :)
[21:05] <forumsmatthew> Arizona, where I am, still doesn't use it. Wisely, i believe
[21:06] <technoviking> popey: Nick I think
[21:06] <forumsmatthew> okay, I need to help my son with something
[21:06] <forumsmatthew> bye, all!
[21:06] <czajkowski> forestpiskie: toodles
[21:07] <pleia2> so, are there only 3 of us?
[21:08] <popey> bet more turn up in an hour
[21:08] <popey> well, 52 mins
[21:09] <czajkowski> technoviking: I hope you didnt rush from some place to be here for now
[21:09] <forestpiskie> o/ czajkowski
[21:10] <czajkowski> forestpiskie: don't mind me, I tab fail lots
[21:10]  * popey pokes nixternal 
[21:10] <cjohnston> hello
[21:10] <forestpiskie> czajkowski: that's cool then - I wondered who I had forgotten ;)
[21:13] <popey> technoviking / pleia2 / persia _can_ you be around in 48 mins, should the rest of the CC be around?
[21:13] <pleia2> yeah
[21:13] <persia> Um, I'm not actually in the CC :)
[21:13] <technoviking> popey: I should be, useless I have to pick up my son at school
[21:13] <popey> i know, but you said you were here for it...
[21:13] <popey> maybe you didnt
[21:13] <persia> Sure, I can be around.
[21:13] <popey> I appear to be making up stuff
[21:13] <pleia2> hehe
[21:14] <Seveas> popey, what else is new?
[21:14] <popey> So.. my mum (mom) made some wine out of grapes we had in our garden. I have had two glasses. It is entirely possible that this has clouded my ability to operate a keyboard.
[21:14] <pleia2> :)
[21:15] <popey> also.. snow!
[21:15] <popey> http://popeydc.dyndns.org/webcam/index.html
[21:15] <Pendulum> :)
[21:15] <nigel_nb> popey: its beautiful
[21:16] <Seveas> more snow: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=39995&id=1016333075
[21:16] <popey> :)
[21:16] <Seveas> fear my weapons! http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=818472&l=662ad781d3&id=1016333075
[22:00]  * pleia2 peers in
[22:02]  * nixternal hides in a corner
[22:06]  * geser offers nixternal some black light for his corner
[22:09] <technoviking> afternoon all
[22:10] <czajkowski> Aloha
[22:11] <popey> o/
[22:13] <technoviking> Is anyone else here for the CC meeting?
[22:13] <pleia2> yep
[22:14] <popey> o/
[22:15] <nixternal> \o
[22:15] <pleia2> looks like it just might be the 4 of us
[22:16] <nixternal> looks like there are 3 items
[22:17] <nixternal> 1st is dholbach and mdke, both seem to be afk
[22:17] <pleia2> 2nd I think we need some background stuff pulled together
[22:17] <nixternal> right, as for the 3rd one, we should just +1 and put it in to action
[22:17] <nixternal> MC -> DMB
[22:17] <nixternal> nothing to discuss really
[22:17] <pleia2> right, I think that just needs a formal +1
[22:18] <popey> shortest meeting eva!
[22:18] <technoviking> fine with me
[22:18] <popey> indeed
[22:18] <technoviking> definite +1 for DMB membership
[22:18] <persia> 3rd item needs more than a +1: someone has to go and make the change in LP.
[22:18] <nixternal> I am fairly certain it was a given anyways
[22:19] <pleia2> as for #2, we need to get together the documentation as to what each board does for appointments/elections and go from there with streamlining the process
[22:19] <pleia2> I can start that this week
[22:19] <nixternal> persia: right, which I am guessing will be easy enough
[22:20] <pleia2> yeah, I'll mail the list my summary when it's done
[23:55] <nigel_nb> time?
[23:56] <pleia2> 5 minutes
[23:56] <Silver_Fox_> 5 minutes nigel_nb
[23:56] <nigel_nb> doh
[23:56] <Joeb454> 4 minutes, actually :)
[23:56] <Joeb454> unless my time is also wrong
[23:57] <pleia2> it was 5ish before I hit enter! ;)
[23:57] <Silver_Fox_> I still prefer to work in UTC.  Lessens confusion.
[23:58] <Joeb454> pleia2: [23:55] < nigel_nb> time?
[23:58] <Joeb454> [23:56] < pleia2> 5 minutes
[23:58] <Silver_Fox_> 3 minutes now
[23:58] <Joeb454> not that I'm being picky, even I'm not that fussy over things :P