[00:12] <wolter> hi all, I would like to ask how many of you are aware of the ubuntu manual project?
[00:13] <wolter> See, I would like some advice, or assistance, in the manual's cover page
[00:13] <wolter> http://imagebin.ca/view/pUotJG.html
[00:14] <wolter> there you have a link to a png render of it.. I am working with inkscape for the raw versions
[04:26] <vish> wolter: hi... do you have the .svg? First i would drop the "Ubuntu Linux for human beings" from page... swap the lucid lynx and the beginner's manual positions
[04:27] <vish> Rather than "This is the official..." it can be "The official..."
[04:27] <vish> but several would argue over it being really the *official* or not... so i would hold back on that :)
[04:59] <wolter> vish, oh, let me link you to the latest version
[04:59] <wolter> i have changed a lot since
[04:59] <wolter> vish, http://imagebin.ca/view/xraHGm.html
[05:00] <wolter> i could implement your suggestions to see what comes out, but first I would like to see what you have to say about this new revision
[10:39] <thorwil> http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/
[13:06] <vish> thorwil: what font is used in the words "Ubuntu" in the logo?
[13:07] <thorwil> vish: if you mean the one true official Ubuntu logo, that is not a font
[13:07] <vish> ah.. ok
[13:10] <kwwii> hey kids
[13:10] <kwwii> I am officialy back working as of today
[13:10] <thorwil> vish: now and then i had to point that out on the list. surprised you didn't know. it's rather nasty, since people like to add text for ubuntu-something logotypes
[13:11] <vish> thorwil: ... i think i recall you saying that... but i forget sometimes :)
[13:12] <thorwil> vish: so if they do that, you not only get ugly type since letters outside of u b n t are often not that great, it all actually doesn't match with the original
[13:12] <thorwil> this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=UbuntuFreeCultureShowcaseLogo_white_100.png
[13:12] <thorwil> felt like a kick to the stomach to me
[13:12] <vish> thorwil: yeah... i was searching for words which would match that style from the logo.. but there arent any ;)
[13:13] <thorwil> kwwii: hi, cool. i'd like a statement from you in the business cards thread
[13:13] <vish> kwwii: o/
[13:13] <vish> kwwii: well its about time you got back  ;p
[13:13] <kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I will answer that
[13:13] <kwwii> vish: lol
[13:15] <thorwil> kwwii: i wrote that there should be only one template. but it would make some sense to have 2, one and two-sided designs
[13:16] <kwwii> thorwil: ahhh, good point
[13:16] <darkmatter> hmmm.... guess that'll do for the clock... for now
[13:17]  * darkmatter contemplates wasting time hacking in an alternative analog display
[13:21] <kwwii> ge-answered
[13:23] <darkmatter> http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8469/screenshotlp.png
[13:23]  * vish notes kwwii still hasnt snapped out of vacation...  "ge"-answered  ... seemed more like "geeez! answered" ;)
[13:27] <kwwii> lol,, that was my crappy attempt at a german-english joke
[13:27] <kwwii> put a ge in front of a verb and it becomes past tense (well, that is a bit of an over-simplification but you get the point)
[13:28] <kwwii> darkmatter: nice colors in the wallpaper
[13:30] <darkmatter> kwwii: I know. just found that one yesterday. an since I have a thing for flora, bokeh, macros, and deep colors...
[13:32] <darkmatter> kwwii: we *really* need an analog clock option.
[13:33] <kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, no doubt
[13:33]  * kwwii has to run to the store, bbiab
[15:21] <kwwii> w00t, the deviantart group now works properly
[16:03] <Equiet_> Do you have some webdesign skills?
[16:43] <thorwil> Equiet_: i do have some, although seldom applied. a number of technical issues have the tendency to drive all the fun out of it
[16:43] <troy_s> thorwil: Sup Thor?
[16:46] <thorwil> troy_s: i'm on the edge of trying out google's app engine
[16:46] <troy_s> thorwil: Erm... what is that?
[16:47] <thorwil> troy_s: google has a service in beta where you can create up to 10 "apps" per google account
[16:47] <troy_s> thorwil: Anything been happening around these parts?
[16:47] <troy_s> thorwil: Hrm... for Android or ???
[16:48] <thorwil> troy_s: no, websites running on their "cloud" infrastructure
[16:48] <troy_s> thorwil: Interesting.
[16:48] <thorwil> which simply means there's no per-cpu or thats-your-block-of-memeory
[16:50] <thorwil> troy_s: you can use java or python there. i hate php and like python, so this is a nice way to get free within-limits hosting sans php
[16:51] <thorwil> troy_s: not much happening in ubuntu artwork land
[16:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Wow... That's pretty nifty.
[16:51] <troy_s> thorwil: Well that's too bad.
[16:51] <troy_s> thorwil: A bit of a drag that ckontros is having to cash out.
[16:51] <thorwil> troy_s: look on the bright side. nobody made a bright orange background with huge CoC and posted it on the list ^^
[16:52] <troy_s> thorwil: Plenty of time. It is sort of an evolutionary period.
[16:52] <thorwil> troy_s: not uncommon that the best are taken from us, so to say :}
[16:53] <troy_s> thorwil: I can appreciate ckontros's position. It is just a shame that no one sucked him up to drive a project.
[16:53] <troy_s> thorwil: Getting people that are passionate about Free Software is a rare thing - especially when it comes to someone with a proven track record of driving.
[16:53] <troy_s> thorwil: It's a trudge and painful at times, so you had better have a good deal of passion about it.
[16:54] <thorwil> well, i would drop all free software related stuff for a gig again, but i have no idea how that would feel after more than 2 or 3 weeks
[16:55] <thorwil> family > money > free software involvement
[16:56] <thorwil> troy_s: so what's cooking in your kitchen?
[16:56] <troy_s> thorwil: Well they aren't mutually exclusive ;)
[16:57] <troy_s> thorwil: I am thankfully unemployed at the moment, but alas, that is going to shift next week for a week or two.
[16:57] <thorwil> sure, i want it all and i want it now!
[16:58] <troy_s> thorwil: Have you got any employment opportunities at all at the moment?
[17:01] <thorwil> troy_s: no, none. the guys in australia who managed to pay me after a long delay and initially said there could be follow-ups hired an in-house designer
[17:03] <Equiet_> I am doing my personal website and am not satisfied at all with it. Could you please tell what's wrong with it (probably the background needs som gradient or more texture).
[17:03] <thorwil> i guess i should create a serious website and get on behance and/or a few others
[17:03] <Equiet_> Any other feedback would be appreciated.
[17:03] <Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/equiet_blue.png
[17:05] <thorwil> Equiet_: your logo-type looks a bit shaky
[17:05] <troy_s> Equiet_: Very elegant Equiet_ - what type of site is it?
[17:05] <troy_s> thorwil: I think it is actually pretty tight.
[17:06] <thorwil> Equiet_: where u and i join ... the width/stroke doesn't seem right to me
[17:07] <Equiet_> troy_s: It should be my portfolio.
[17:07] <troy_s> thorwil: Ok... agree with you on that. It's an upstroke, and should thin.
[17:07] <thorwil> Equiet_: e and t are very nice, though
[17:07] <troy_s> Equiet_: The kerning on the eq might use a bump of tightening? Less so on the ei, but even a nudge.
[17:08] <Equiet_> W8, I have to translate this.
[17:08] <troy_s> Equiet_: It is tricky to an English speaker as my visceral response is to spot the 'quiet' in the equiet - which magnifies the kerning gap.
[17:08] <thorwil> Equiet_: the first impression on that shot: serious and rather elegant. you will have to be very careful with color
[17:10] <troy_s> Equiet_: It has a lot going for it. It has a tight grid at the foundation, it has a solid degree of craftsmanship and attention to details and subtle elements. Don't know if it 'screams' design portfolio though.
[17:11] <troy_s> Equiet_: If you are targeting design firms, there is a good chance that the HR person is a creative type and likely might want to see a good example of creativity. Hard to say though... fish around and drop it by a few firms.
[17:12] <Equiet_> Well, this is my style I work, just a simple elements with feel of detail.
[17:13] <Equiet_> And at all, you probably don't understand slovak, but I do only conding for now.
[17:13] <troy_s> Equiet_: Yes... my Slovak is non existent ;)
[17:13] <thorwil> Equiet_: i'd look for an alternative for the grey on the "Company with new stylish ..."
[17:14] <Equiet_> I also have white background... http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/equiet_white.png
[17:14] <Equiet_> But I prefer the blue one.
[17:15] <troy_s> Equiet_: White works better for my Westernized brain. It feels less like a pharmaceuticals company from over here.
[17:15] <thorwil> troy_s: no slovak, but your english increases my grab-the-dictionary frequency like few other's ;)
[17:15] <troy_s> Equiet_: But really it is just a matter of subjective taste. I _would_ consider looking at the kerning on that 'eq' pair.
[17:18] <Equiet_> Ok, I will work on it.
[17:22] <Equiet_> I also have another design for a photoblog (not mine, just a free template)... http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/photoblog_white.png
[17:23] <Equiet_> And http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/photoblog_black.png .
[17:23] <Equiet_> I am doing it to get to web conference. :)
[17:24] <thorwil> Equiet_: could you expand on that? you do what to get to what conference?
[17:25] <Equiet_> http://juniorinternet.sk/
[17:25] <Equiet_> It's a bit contest, but that doesn't matter at all. You can get Adobe Flex Builder for 1st place.
[17:26] <Equiet_> I have to send at least 3 (web)designs.
[17:26] <thorwil> Equiet_: secondary headlines on the dark one are too dark. those will be hard to read in strong daylight / on a bad display
[17:27] <troy_s> thorwil: Do you really care about someone interested in photography viewing in broad daylight on a crap display?
[17:27] <troy_s> thorwil: That's one of the 'audience members that I could care less about'
[17:29] <thorwil> troy_s: not everyone is willing to shut the sun out of the room for display contrast
[17:29] <troy_s> thorwil: As I said - _if_ you are interested in photography, chances are that you won't have an issue with that text.
[17:31] <thorwil> Equiet_: did you consider to have the "Download  View on black ..." outside of the picture?
[17:31] <troy_s> thorwil: And to the rest - bugger them.
[17:31] <Equiet_> thorwil: Yes, I did.
[17:32] <Equiet_> But it makes another block and distracts from the photo.
[17:33] <thorwil> Equiet_: your example makes this very easy. what if you have a photo with lots of different shades down there?
[17:35] <troy_s> thorwil: Tango! Outline, then outline, then outline again!
[17:35] <Equiet_> thorwil: Good point, I add more opacity to that panel.
[17:37] <thorwil> Equiet_: thought about image analysis? selecting colors for the page based on the image?
[17:39] <Equiet_> thorwil: Well, I didn't... But it doesn't even make sense. :)
[17:39] <thorwil> Equiet_: tell that to the people who do exactly that
[17:40] <thorwil> Equiet_: maybe not wise to do it for the entire page, but could do wonders for a single block
[17:43] <Equiet_> thorwil: This reminded me, that some TV manufacturer (maybe Sony) uses colors of image and lights on the wall behind TV.
[17:43] <thorwil> yes, i vaguely recall reading about that
[17:44] <Equiet_> And could you please send some link to this technique?
[17:46] <Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/photoblog_background.png
[17:47] <thorwil> Equiet_: i know that i came across a photo blog template with that feature, but all i can find now is http://www.cssdrive.com/imagepalette/
[17:52] <Equiet_> Actually, these are only examples of my work you have seen, right?
[17:53] <Equiet_> s/only/single
[17:54] <thorwil> Equiet_: this and your software center mockups
[17:54] <Equiet_> I have some graphics on my Flickr account. http://www.flickr.com/photos/equiet/
[18:01] <thorwil> Equiet_: wonderful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/equiet/3736045822/
[18:02] <thorwil> Equiet_: i would really like this one, if it wasn't for the main text color that is no good match for the background (or the other way around). To my eyes, that is. http://www.flickr.com/photos/equiet/3977147420/
[18:07] <Equiet_> Thank you for all feedback.
[18:07]  * Equiet_ afk.
[19:07] <mrmcq2u> anyone any idea when the rgba and client side window stuff will start landing in the main lucid repos?
[19:08] <vish> mrmcq2u: i think it just landed
[19:08] <mrmcq2u> the rgba or the client side windows or both?
[19:09] <vish> let me grab the bug
[19:09] <vish> mrmcq2u: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/491521
[19:20] <coz_> hey guys... if anyone is interested, I found a site where a fellow created several simple but fairly interesting  xsplash animations....you need to go to google translate      espiralx.org     spanish to english...then click on "share"   then on "gnome"  and there is a list of items the fellow has apparenlty created for gnome including  xsplash
[19:38] <vish> coz_: you are gonna make us beg aernt you ? ;p
[19:38] <vish> coz_: well.... link pls
[19:38] <coz_> vish,  what do you mean ?
[19:38] <coz_> :)
[19:39] <coz_> vish,  oh !
[19:39] <vish> oh! espiralx.org   was the link :/
[19:39] <coz_> vish,  well first open google translate    spanish to enlgish  and type in    esprialx.org
[19:39] <coz_> :)
[19:44] <thorwil> http://espiralx.org/04-EspacioI/05-Jaunty-counter.html ??
[19:47] <coz_> thorwil,  didnt see that
[19:47] <coz_> click on "Compartir"
[19:49] <thorwil> "Credits: Canonical". pah!
[20:03] <vish> comments anyone > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/ManualTitle.png
[20:04]  * thorwil stumbles over the 20 meter long beard of the page corner effect
[20:05] <vish> thorwil: ;) ?
[20:05] <londonali1010> Hullo, I probably should introduce myself, considering I've been lurking for awhile here and on the mailing list :P
[20:06] <londonali1010> vish, First thing that sticks out is that paper doesn't "bend" like that when it's peeled forward; it goes in a straight line.
[20:06] <Equiet_> vish: More whitespace around Ubuntu logo (-> make that thing around it higher).
[20:06] <thorwil> vish: top right corner. many many years ago, the arrival of photoshop plugins to do that marked the point where it was overused, cliche, old hat already. it's not even well executed
[20:07] <coz_> vish,  I like the simplicity of the design
[20:07] <thorwil> londonali1010: well, hi! :)
[20:07] <vish> londonali1010: ... its about time was wondering if you were a bot :)
[20:07] <coz_> vish,  it is easily read...no clutter... the eye goes where it should
[20:07] <vish> Equiet_: the top-right logo?
[20:08] <Equiet_> vish: Top-left logo.
[20:08] <thorwil> vish: "ubuntu" 4 times on that page ... i'd try to avoid that
[20:08] <londonali1010> thorwil, Hi :) No, not a bot, just shy :) I do a lot of work on Conky and dabble in GTK themes, mostly I'm a GUI theory enthusiast.
[20:08] <vish> ah , oops
[20:09] <thorwil> vish: Equiet_ is right, not enough padding for the colored CoC. also the grey there bites with the 3 colors
[20:09] <vish> thorwil: well the text is not my choice either ... final but the team is the "Ubunutu Manual team" and the name is the "Ubuntu Manual"... and the version is the "Ubuntun 9.10".... so what to do :(
[20:10] <Equiet_> vish: Add more another text. :P
[20:10] <vish> hehe ;)
[20:10] <londonali1010> vish, I'm finding the red in the corner distracting, actually, can't stop staring at it :)
[20:10] <thorwil> vish: the "The" can't stay there, as one sees it too late. can't read that way, messes up flow
[20:11] <coz_> less intense colours perhaps
[20:11] <vish> thorwil: ... i wanted to make it lees noticable ;)
[20:11] <thorwil> vish: one ubuntu for the title, one for the team. put the version in proximity to the title
[20:11] <londonali1010> coz_, It's gotta have *some* colour though, or...*yawn*!
[20:11] <coz_> londonali1010,  yes I meant the red  and the upper left logo
[20:12] <thorwil> vish: "Ubuntu Manual Team" doesn't line up with anything
[20:12] <coz_> cover the top portion with hand... the rest is fine
[20:12] <vish> thorwil: was wondering when you mention that align ;p
[20:13] <thorwil> vish: repetition of the CoC is also questionable. especially cropped like that, leaving a third out
[20:13] <vish> thorwil: cropped?
[20:14] <thorwil> vish: dark edge around the title looks dirty, like it doesn't belong to the type and is no believable shadow either
[20:14] <thorwil> vish: big grey CoC. one of the friends is missing
[20:15] <vish> thorwil: oh that.. its a place holder for now... they want to use some logo of the lynx... dont even get me started on that :/
[20:15] <coz_> that red could be changed to mid range grey gradient
[20:16] <thorwil> vish: is there a fixed page layout for the content? if there is one, you should use the same margins for orientation. perhaps even the baseline grid
[20:16] <vish> coz_: the color of the edge is not fixed... for every version the color is to change
[20:16] <vish> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
[20:16] <coz_> vish,  understood
[20:16] <vish> thorwil: ^
[20:17] <coz_> vish,  whoa that last link the colours are way too intense   for my ey
[20:17] <coz_> eye
[20:18] <londonali1010> vish, OMG, waaay too bright!
[20:18] <vish> londonali1010: those aernt mine ... :) ... i'm showing you the versions they already want to use ;p
[20:18] <londonali1010> Are the colours for each version meant to coordinate with the logo? Or will they be like, blue, and green and things?
[20:18] <thorwil> vish: both proposed title pages are dilettantish but have more convincing layouts than yours
[20:19] <coz_> I disagree
[20:19] <vish> londonali1010: my idea for the corner is to use a color from the default wallpaper
[20:21] <londonali1010> vish, Oh, okay, I see. Just so long as it coordinates with the logo, not clashes with it, I'll be happy :)
[20:21] <thorwil> vish: the title "The Ubuntu Manual" must be the clear number one. what everyone has to focus on first. heaviest thing on the page
[20:21] <thorwil> vish: the corner effect is bound to clash with that. it's tacky and cheap
[20:22] <londonali1010> That's what I meant about the corner being distracting...It's the first thing I look at.
[20:22] <vish> londonali1010: thorwil: they want the version number to be prominent :(
[20:22] <vish> to catch the user attention
[20:22] <londonali1010> But surely not at the expense of the title itself? :)
[20:22] <thorwil> vish: put in proximity to the title, then
[20:23] <londonali1010> Overall, I like the style, it's far more refined and less "Linux" than the others you linked to.
[20:23] <londonali1010> ;P
[20:24] <coz_> I agree... cover the top portion and it works   so just a few adjustments to the upper colours and values  even if you keep the "page flip"
[20:25] <vish> well... serves me right to show it to thorwil when i'v done something for just under and hour ;p
[20:25] <vish> an*
[20:27] <coz_> vish,  i think the desing overall is quite nice
[20:27] <coz_> design
[20:28] <vish> ;)
[20:29] <londonali1010> vish, The colour of "The Ubuntu Manual" title is bothering me...It's too warm for the rest of the grey. Can you either warm it up even more, to a taupe-y colour to complement the logo, or cool it down more like your CoC placeholder?
[20:34]  * vish tweaks
[20:43] <thorwil> vish: what's the page size/format?
[20:44] <vish> thorwil: not sure... i havent looked much into the manual... i just started fooling around with the original svg...
[20:46] <thorwil> vish: if it shall be possible to print the book on an A4 printer, you have to have an empty margin
[20:46] <vish> thorwil: oh.. why so?
[20:48] <thorwil> vish: because you usually can't print on the whole page. so either you have a margin by design, or you let the printer leave one out. possibly a different one by model, but always with ugly dimensions
[20:48] <vish> thorwil: ah... ok.
[20:49] <vish> londonali1010: you mentioned conky... any interesting stuff lately?
[20:49] <thorwil> vish: but if you have things that touch the edge of the page, you should have at least 3mm safety area for cropping
[20:50] <thorwil> vish: damn, i don't have the right english terms for this at hand
[20:50] <vish> thorwil: its mainly to be supplied as a pdf format with
[20:51] <vish> i dont think they intend it to be printed .. but i'll asl
[20:51] <vish> ask*
[20:51] <thorwil> vish: yes, but who likes to read so much text on screen?
[20:51] <londonali1010> vish, Oh, if you only knew! ;P I write for the Conky Blog: http://blog.conky.be. I also have a customisation blog: http://mylittledesktop.blogspot.com, and I talk about some of the finer details :)
[20:51] <thorwil> troy_s: you will love this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots :)
[20:51] <coz_> :)
[20:52] <vish> oh no... not troy_s !
[20:52] <thorwil> vish: behave, or i add your link, too ;p
[20:52] <troy_s> Wow.
[20:52]  * vish hides
[20:52]  * vish removes dropbox link
[20:52] <coz_> lol
[20:53] <thorwil> hehe
[20:53] <coz_> oh troy_s  not that bad a fellow
[20:53] <troy_s> thorwil: Looking. What smear campaign have you been propagating against me?!!?! LOL.
[20:53] <troy_s> Uh oh... another one... that coz_ guy!
[20:53] <coz_> troy_s,  as usual :)
[20:53] <thorwil> troy_s: no smear campaign, it's all deep respect ;)
[20:53] <vish> londonali1010: i used to tweak the hell out of conky.. but recently a lot has changed.. ;
[20:54] <troy_s> thorwil: Wow... how to make Free Software art and design better overnight? Banish the glossy penguin and Ubuntu title font.
[20:54] <troy_s> That is some ... questionable typography.  Yikes.
[20:54] <troy_s> "Love the second proposal! But perhaps the Lynx could be hand-drawn and really "arty" instead of a photo? - Benjamin Humphrey"
[20:54] <troy_s> Wow... wonder what he is getting at.
[20:54] <londonali1010> vish, Yes, you're right. Since we've had Cairo and Imlib2 bindings for Lua put in, Conky has suddenly become graphical as well as textual.
[20:54] <troy_s> lol
[20:55] <thorwil> troy_s: yeah. afterwards you will have people still not knowing what comes first (like, you no, a title). to not even start with details like the use of first line indent on first paragraphs
[20:55] <troy_s> And compositionally questionable at best.
[20:56] <troy_s> thorwil: Sadly, there is a book about typography that many accept as a pretty solid canon. Bringhurst's book is pretty reliable for those that don't want to know about why, just get to 'solid'.
[20:56] <vish> troy_s: thorwil: why dont either of you guys make a title page?
[20:57] <thorwil> vish: i'm considering it. but there's enough other stuff and i don't want to spoil it for you
[20:57] <thorwil> vish: i still think it's possible that _you_ come up with something decent
[20:58] <londonali1010> Have any of you guys ever heard of "read smart" formatting?
[20:58] <thorwil> not really
[20:58] <vish> thorwil: meh... i was just fooling around... i dont mind if someone does it better :)  anyways... this is my very first attempt at a book cover  ;)
[20:59] <thorwil> vish: if you go about this like with your icons, we will soon see something good
[20:59] <vish> thorwil: hehe ;p
[21:00] <trijntje> hi all. Where can I change te X11 boot screen? In karmic thats the single white on black ubuntu logo
[21:01] <londonali1010> thorwil, It's pretty nifty, makes reading easier, apparently. More info in this article: http://www.humanfactors.com/downloads/febmar09.asp
[21:02] <coz_> trijntje,   I have no idea... it is certainly ugly at best
[21:03] <coz_> trijntje,  unless you mean the screen with the trobber progress bar?
[21:03] <trijntje> coz_, I want to change it, but its stealth, nobody knows where it is
[21:03] <trijntje> coz_, no, before that
[21:03] <coz_> trijntje,  mm   no I dont know for sure.... you can change the progress bar xsplash screen fairly easily though
[21:05] <troy_s> vish: Because I don't believe in contests. They are a bane. They have chosen a designer and are working with them I hope. If that is the case, that is the proper path. I applaud the approach. The output / destination / execution, however, should be scrutinized based on that decision.
[21:06] <troy_s> vish: And with taglines such as "We need a snazzy title page." - you can see what kind of creative dynamic design sense has been bestowed at the company.
[21:06] <coz_> :)
[21:07] <troy_s> londonali1010: Formatting is one thing, but ultimate audience satisfaction and desirability is the end-all. There are trade offs.
[21:09] <thorwil> good night! :)
[21:10] <londonali1010> troy_s, Do you mean about the Kindle? I was only looking at the "read smart" bit of it...There's an example of it here:http://www.readsmart.com/pdf/sample2.pdf
[21:10] <londonali1010> Just thought it was interesting for graphic-designer types :)
[21:12] <troy_s> londonali1010: Yeah... vote up vote down, statistics and faceless data. I care more about specific audience responses to designs and the resulting data. And in the end, I care most about end audience experience and resulting desirability.
[21:14] <troy_s> londonali1010: If an audience's desire and experience is elevated by a particular design approach, so be it. If clunky design results in a specific audience's elevated experience, so be it.
[21:14] <troy_s> londonali1010: It's tricky stuff.
[21:15] <londonali1010> troy_s, I agree with you, it's kind of like pop music, you can judge whether it's good or not, but at the end of the day, people buy it! :)
[21:15] <troy_s> londonali1010: Amen. That is exactly what it is. NO one would dare try to write music for everyone, cook a meal for everyone, write a book for everyone, shoot a movie for everyone, etc.
[21:16] <troy_s> londonali1010: What does it say about Free Software design when you read 'everyone'?
[21:17] <londonali1010> Well, it's kind of stifling if you try to satisfy everyone. In the end you're guaranteed no one will really like it!
[21:17] <troy_s> londonali1010: What sort of darker "I can't even see how blind I am" statements are being made when someone boldly puts forth a Human Interface Guideline? Does that apply to five years from now? How about an alternate cultural perspective in Asia? How about someone with specific motor skill impairment? How about someone with visual impairment?
[21:17] <vish> troy_s: it isnt a competition.. :) but more they are open to community suggestions. so anyone can just post one... [why i mentioned was since you did most a mockup for boot sequence]
[21:17] <vish> s/most/post
[21:17] <coz_> that;s a fine line
[21:17] <troy_s> vish: Which is a competition. Go out, get some balls, look for work that a creative team respects and work with the individual(s).
[21:18] <vish> hehe ;)
[21:18] <londonali1010> troy_s, I'd just like to see someone try the dynamic spacing thing in a widely distributed text, to see if anyone does like it.
[21:18] <troy_s> vish: Point is that it is _extremely_ difficult to develop a sense of aesthetic - some people go to fine arts school and practise art and design, study art and design, and focus on it for _years_ and have a very tricky time defining an aesthetic.
[21:18] <troy_s> londonali1010: I agree. I guess it starts with 'who the hell is this for?'
[21:19] <troy_s> londonali1010: Bringhurst also suggests line lengths no longer than xxx values.
[21:19] <londonali1010> troy_s, I prefer to work under the trial and error method...Esp. since some of the stuff I thought was the best, no one's liked, and vice versa!!!
[21:19] <troy_s> londonali1010: And the dawn of the serif was intended to facilitate horizontal flow. But those are all contextual. There are many informal studies done on mp3 preference over lossless and some are now _choosing_ the mp3 sound. It is subjective and mercurial aesthetics.
[21:20] <troy_s> londonali1010: Start with the who. Figure out the why. From there, the goal is to draw a line between the two.
[21:20] <troy_s> londonali1010: So simple and so utterly complicated at the same moment.
[21:20] <troy_s> coz_: How have you been? Any work?
[21:21] <vish> troy_s: coz_ only helps the french[cairo-dock] ;p
[21:21] <coz_> troy_s,  only for cairo dock at this point..... I havent had the time as usual....although most of my time has been spent with inksacpe  so that is becoming more and more familiar territory for me
[21:21] <vish> see!
[21:22] <coz_> troy_s,  infact    when I think bout anything to create it is generally always with inkscape in mind these days
[21:22] <coz_> troy_s,  although if I had the money I would leave all this... move to italy and paint in oils and sculp for the remainder of my like :)
[21:23] <coz_> life
[21:23] <trijntje> Hi all, do you guy's know what is used to draw the white on black ubuntu logo during boot?
[21:24] <troy_s> coz_: I've been there for years my friend.
[21:24] <troy_s> coz_: That said, it isn't quite high grade enough. Blender is by far the most advanced and sophisticated toolset we have.
[21:24] <troy_s> coz_: But I tend to combine the two quite often.
[21:24] <troy_s> coz_: Speaking of sculpt - pick up 2.5 and try the new sculpt tools.
[21:24] <troy_s> coz_: wow.
[21:25] <troy_s> trijntje: I suspect it is a usplash variant.
[21:25] <troy_s> trijntje: Judging from the low resolution aspect ratio agnostic gongshow.
[21:26] <troy_s> trijntje: Don't quote me on that though. kwwii is probably the one most well equipped to answer that question here.
[21:26] <coz_> trijntje,   and I doubt you will get a decent response from #ubuntu channel with this....
[21:26] <trijntje> troy_s, i want to change it, but its next to impossible to find how
[21:26] <troy_s> trijntje: That answer probably lies in some obscure corner of the remix documents for rebranding.
[21:26] <trijntje> coz_, already tried that before I came here, nothing usefull, other people who want to know the same thing
[21:26] <troy_s> trijntje: Also try #ubuntustudio-devel and perhaps track down TheMuso.
[21:27] <coz_> trijntje,  right i know... that is what generaly happens there when no one knows the answer
[21:27] <troy_s> trijntje: They change theirs... superm1 from #ubuntu-mythtv-devel could help you perhaps too. But he is deadly busy so try not to nag him.
[21:28] <troy_s> trijntje: Look to the distributions that change it - superm1 heads Mythbuntu and stochastic or TheMuso SHOULD be able to help you from Ubuntu Studio.
[21:28] <trijntje> changing all other artwork is easy, but this is hard..
[21:28] <troy_s> trijntje: And when you find the information, wiki it so that other's can find it.
[21:28] <coz_> trijntje,  if you find out let me know :)
[21:29] <trijntje> will do, IF I ever find it out ;)
[21:29] <troy_s> trijntje: You _will_ if you try one of those two contacts. I promise.
[21:29] <trijntje> troy_s, so if I get this right they changed it in ubuntustudio, so someone there should know how to do it?
[21:29] <troy_s> trijntje: I wouldn't lie to you. :)
[21:29] <trijntje> :D
[21:30] <troy_s> trijntje: I can't remember if they changed it, but TheMuso is a bloody genius as is superm1.
[21:30] <troy_s> trijntje: They will at least be able to get you another contact person that will know or will lead you closer to the destination.
[21:30] <troy_s> trijntje: Don't forget #ubuntu-devel. There are many extremely bright and knowledgeable minds there.
[21:31] <trijntje> troy_s, I will do that, thanks for your help
[21:32] <coz_> ok I need to eat supper   .... yummm... be back a bit later :)
[21:41] <londonali1010> Can anyone point me to a resource for starting to learn how to package stuff? I'm not much a programmer, but I have some artwork that I'd like to package in a PPA rather than using DevArt, but I'm a complete newbie at it...
[21:41] <troy_s> londonali1010: Debian.
[21:42] <troy_s> londonali1010: Start with the Debian tutorials. They are the canonical references.
[21:42] <londonali1010> Okay, I'll have a look. Thanks.
[21:42] <troy_s> londonali1010: When asked...
[21:42] <troy_s> londonali1010: I have always been pointed at the Debian stuff such as http://wiki.debian.org/HowToPackageForDebian
[21:43] <londonali1010> *Bookmarked*!
[21:43] <troy_s> londonali1010: And this one was from TheMuso I believe... http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-debpkg.html
[21:44] <londonali1010> Thanks, that should get me started. I'm determined to learn! :)
[21:49] <mrmcq2u> mmmmmmm......... the new gnome-activity-journal ui rocks :D
[21:57] <vish> londonali1010: heh... we struggled to find some to package the humanity icons as well ;)
[21:57]  * vish very lazy to read instructions
[21:57] <vish> find someone*
[21:58] <londonali1010> vish, I confess I find it tough because I'm not a developer, so a lot of the how-tos go over my head! Then again, so did GTK themes when I started :S
[22:07]  * vish wonders what to do...
[22:08] <vish> of all the changes you folks mentioned only Equiet_'s they like...  they dont like them :/
[22:27] <troy_s> vish: What sorry?
[22:28] <vish> troy_s: oh... before you logged in i guess , i had shown a mockup for the cover
[22:28] <troy_s> vish: Were there others?
[22:28] <troy_s> vish: Where is it?
[22:28] <vish> hmm.. just a sec
[22:29] <troy_s> vish: I'd be interested to see all of them if you have links.
[22:31] <vish> well... this was my first try ever at the book cover > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/1.png
[22:32] <vish> has some pretty obvious mistakes... i just didnt care to look ;)
[22:32] <vish> troy_s: this is with some of the changes > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/new.png
[22:33] <vish> note the logo monochrome logo is just a place holder , they want to use a lynx watermark :/
[22:35] <troy_s> vish: More mimicry in using a Lynx. Trying to be like OReilly.
[22:35] <troy_s> vish: Unfortunate.
[22:35] <troy_s> vish: Were there other's put on the table>
[22:35] <troy_s> ?
[22:36] <vish> troy_s: i didnt understandwhere/to whom?
[22:36] <troy_s> vish: You mentioned Eq's?
[22:36] <troy_s> vish: The changes are like bickering about the number of sesame seeds on the bun.
[22:36] <troy_s> vish: Who is it for?>
[22:37] <vish> troy_s: no... Equiet_ pointed out that the padding in the top COC was wrong in my initial mockup... that change they like..
[22:37] <vish> but some of the other changes they are reluctant... they like the old color in the top corner better
[22:38] <troy_s> vish: Quite true. The padding in the pill is arguably better in the 2nd. As is the right alignment... but in the end, the changes are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The bigger question is "What direction to go?"
[22:38] <troy_s> vish: And that can only be answered by asking "Who is it for?" with specific answers.
[22:38] <troy_s> vish: Who is 'they'?
[22:39] <vish> troy_s: they == "the manual taem"
[22:39] <troy_s> vish: While they are qualified to select a cover, are they qualified as art directors?
[22:39] <coz_> exactly
[22:39] <troy_s> vish: Be careful with advice - it will lead you blindly.
[22:39] <vish> troy_s: i dont think so :) .. but its their project
[22:39] <troy_s> vish: If they wish to hold the pencil, tell them to do so.
[22:39] <troy_s> vish: Then so be it.
[22:40] <coz_> vish,  their project or not   ... just blind them with good design
[22:40] <vish> troy_s: i try to just get in between their suggestions/idea and a better design ;)
[22:40] <troy_s> vish: Let solid art and design _choices_ be rooted in solid art and design thinking. Let poor art and design be rooted in arbitrary and loose principle.
[22:40] <troy_s> vish: Impossible.
[22:40] <troy_s> vish: The very act of art and design is selection. It is judgement. It is exclusion.
[22:40] <vish> troy_s: any changes to the recent one you'd suggest
[22:41] <troy_s> vish: No. I know nothing of the audience nor the goal.
[22:41] <troy_s> vish: Is it for an avant garde publication? Is it to be featured in the New Yorker? Who is the reader? What are you trying to communicate?
[22:42] <troy_s> vish: But be wary of advice. Be critical of even what I am saying now. Who is the advice from? What 'knowledge' is it moored in?
[22:42] <vish> troy_s: just for the average user... they plan to propose it as a simple user help doc in the default install
[22:42] <troy_s> vish: Does it carry weight in relationship to your world?
[22:42] <troy_s> vish: First big mistake - there is no average user.
[22:42] <troy_s> vish: There are no users.
[22:43] <troy_s> vish: There are people. Every single one is complicated, fascinating, and subject to a plethora of different principles.
[22:43] <vish> troy_s: thats their "plan" they dont really have a plan for the design AFAIK
[22:43] <troy_s> vish: Any design is subject to those rules. There are hidden and blind 'assumptions'. You know what happens when one assumes right?
[22:44] <troy_s> vish: _Exactly_.
[22:44] <troy_s> vish: And in that, without a goal, without a metric... how can you evaluate any degree of success?
[22:44] <vish> hehe ;)
[22:44] <vish> very true
[22:44] <troy_s> vish: If I yell at you and say J'AIME TU, do you worry?
[22:45] <coz_> :)
[22:45] <troy_s> vish: Design and art is communication. Plain and simple. Like it or not, it drags with it about 2000 years of theory and practice. It embodies a complex world of patterns, symbols, and arcane principles that are applied specifically to culture, history, and language.
[22:46] <troy_s> vish: Is Acid Wash chic or tacky? Is a Walkman Haute Couture or retro? What about a shiny phone with no keyboard or obvious buttons?
[22:46] <coz_> it still boils down to good design  good composition....
[22:47] <troy_s> coz_: Tricky... there have been a couple of good books that actually cite radical differences in composition.
[22:47] <troy_s> coz_: Westernized art is pretty much solidly moored in phi... thank Leonardo and the other brilliant minds of the Ren... tribal Africa subject to an entirely different set of aesthetics. Asia as well.
[22:48] <troy_s> coz_: Such a tricky landscape.
[22:48] <coz_> troy_s,   I would have to read those books
[22:48] <coz_> troy_s,   most of the cultural differences of compositional techniques are well know
[22:48] <troy_s> coz_: The one I have is dry as heck. It's research based... rather boring. But the case it makes is somewhat obvious.
[22:49] <troy_s> coz_: An interesting read that asks some of those questions - http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/mandarin.pdf
[22:49] <coz_> downloading now
[22:49]  * vish grabs link
[22:50] <troy_s> coz_: Mandarin seems to be a very investigated language. Google "Mandarin Thought Shape" and you will find a number of hits.
[22:50] <coz_> troy_s,  I still think that the artist's individual sense of composition is key... it does take study and understanding to individualize but I believe that is still primary goal
[22:50] <troy_s> coz_: It is learnt. There is no nature versus nurture here. Aesthetic is temporal and learnt.
[22:50] <troy_s> coz_: Exactly the point of the acid wash. The iPhone looks chic now, give it five years.
[22:50] <troy_s> coz_: Every aspect is rather mercurial.
[22:51] <coz_> troy_s,  my problem is those who make the final decisions about work completed...what are their particular skills
[22:51] <troy_s> coz_: Most certainly knowing this, studying art history etc, all helps to shape what might be a useful aesthetic for a given area.
[22:51] <troy_s> coz_: Agree. What about a terrific idea that is poorly executed?
[22:51] <troy_s> coz_: Complex stuff.
[22:51] <coz_> troy_s,  well poorly executed is the artists  responisiblity
[22:52] <troy_s> coz_: Still - there comes a time where some concept forks into what it turns into and what it could have been. The execution is ultimately all that matters. But how many discard ideas based on poor execution? It is why we fail rather radically in our ability to evaluate sketch mocks.
[22:53] <troy_s> coz_: (And of course, poorly executed is subject to audience. Go to Gnome-Look, KDE-Look and look at the rankings. There _is_ an aesthetic in our culture. I am just radically opposed to it.)
[22:53] <coz_> troy_s,  oh god... both of those sites sometimes makes me shiver :)
[22:53] <troy_s> coz_: You aren't the audience. For _someone_ however, I get the feeling it is filling a need.
[22:54] <coz_> troy_s,  people want to be involved   and those sites offer an outlet
[22:55] <troy_s> coz_: Blind vote up down is useless random noise disguised as data.
[22:55] <darkmatter> troy_s: by cultural aesthetic you mean "idiots with a graphics editor", correct? if so I agree
[22:55] <troy_s> coz_: Sad. Same reason that brainstorms are complete failure. They are steered by a current random audience horde.
[22:56] <troy_s> darkmatter: Hard to say. I wish the source of all 'issues' were idiocy. Unfortunately, our culture has way too many brilliant minds to make that a factor.
[22:58] <darkmatter> meh... I should quit caring and finish working on my designs. not that they'll ever become a reality (everyones to busy copycatting), but maybe they'll jumpstart some brain usage
[22:58] <coz_> troy_s,  brilliant minds  do not make art
[22:59] <troy_s> coz_: Wow. Couldn't disagree more with you on that one. LOL.
[22:59] <coz_> troy_s,   is a flawlessy  rendered human figure  art?
[22:59] <coz_>  of course not
[22:59] <troy_s> coz_: Hrm... Picasso might disagree.
[22:59] <coz_> it takes great skill to render the human figure  ,,,many years of study   but it is not art
[22:59] <troy_s> coz_: Or perhaps rather, on the other side, Leo would.
[23:00] <coz_> it is draftsmanship
[23:00] <coz_> it is the use of the human figure that moves from draftsmanship to art  in the composition
[23:00]  * darkmatter supports coz_ on this observation
[23:00] <troy_s> coz_: Sure... but it took what... 400 years to get to that?
[23:00] <troy_s> coz_: It wasn't until the Modernists that we started to agree that pure mimicry was rather... un arty.
[23:00] <coz_> composition is the key... i have argued this topic  for years  even with some so called  great  art professors
[23:01] <coz_> no one needs to be able to draw to compose great works of art
[23:01] <coz_> it is the understanding of the times...your place in those times...and the knowledge  of your skills that can communicate to large audiences
[23:02] <troy_s> coz_: Problem is composition is a moving target coz_. The 'establishment' forms and then the new wave of artists smash it. Hello Rationalists, hello Modernists, hello Postmodernism. For every Impressionist there came a Constructivist.
[23:02] <troy_s> coz_: Amen.
[23:02] <troy_s> coz_: And the relationship of that time to the time just passing. Perhaps even to the time ahead.
[23:02] <coz_> troy_s,  yeah but in reality compoisiton has not really changed...just the elements used within it
[23:02] <troy_s> coz_: Erm... El Lissitsky flipped that pretty good. Many of those Soviets did actually.
[23:05] <coz_> sorry
[23:05] <darkmatter> coz_: I like to refer to it as 'conceptual simplicity/structural complexity' when it comes to interfaces. be they physical or perceived. The approach needs to change in the way things are handled. there is still this nasty habit to seperate the graphics/patterns/code as seperate entities and then randomly glue the end results together
[23:06] <coz_> darkmatter,  understood.....
[23:09] <darkmatter> it should be about form and function as a unified whole. because just like traditional art, there are no separate entities
[23:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  I think I agree  I might have to think that one through :)
[23:15] <darkmatter> coz_: bit busy. so I kinda cut the description down. but you don't arbitrarily slap stuff together. In the end the canvas, media, subject, composition are codependent, as the nature of each affects the whole. It's one of those 'obvious' things, and it applies to software as well, the only difference is the software industry is oblivious to the obvious for the most part
[23:15] <coz_> darkmatter,  then yes I agree :)
[23:33] <troy_s> darkmatter: It's holistic. Don't forget what happens in the real world around the computer either - as that drives the aesthetic. The geographical culture, the historical context, the age demographic... Interesting stuffs really.
[23:34] <darkmatter> troy_s: true.
[23:35] <troy_s> Now it's time to getting back to watching blind shots in the dark that are pushed and pulled with the tide.
[23:37] <darkmatter> troy_s: I wasn't speaking solely of the aesthetics however, mainly I was ragging about the current methodology/formula in development as a whole being fundamentally broken
[23:38] <troy_s> darkmatter: I might agree with you. It shall be even more painfully clear as design thinking is either adopted to success or discarded in failure.
[23:38] <darkmatter> brb... need to re-bandage. my hand is bleeding again
[23:39] <darkmatter> by the way. stipple is evil
[23:44] <darkmatter> coz_: I woke up in the best imaginable way today. phone was ringing, got out of bed. got dizzy (sinus infection I'm dealing with). reached out to catch myself. gotta love sloped ceilings. caught the edge of my hand on a jagged bit o' stipple, stabbed in about an 8th of an inch and body weight dragged it through. gotta gash that bled for an hour
[23:45] <darkmatter> coz_: it was a groggy to "JESUSF***INGCHRIST!" morning :P
[23:45] <coz_> darkmatter,  yikes dude!!!
[23:45] <coz_> darkmatter,   you feeling ok now?
[23:46] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. was feeling fine all along, aside from the blood trail :)
[23:46] <coz_> :)
[23:46] <darkmatter> who would have realized the hazards of stippling
[23:46] <coz_> darkmatter,  I understand...had my first nose bleed christmas eve..lost one quart and a half of blood
[23:46] <coz_> darkmatter, lol
[23:48] <coz_> ok guys I am breaking here for a bit...  be back later
[23:49] <darkmatter> the missus got home from the store, saw me sitting on the sofa watching tv and having a coffee with my left had resting on a blood stained towel and was almost a perfect caricature of the "O_O" emote