ubottuLjL called the ops in #ubuntu-offtopic (_phantom)00:05
nikono ops around ?00:07
Seeker`niko: you going to remove him, or just keep him quiet00:10
nikoSeeker`: for the moment it's one hour quiet00:11
nikoi try to talk with him00:11
nikohum, seems to fail to catalyst00:12
niko<?_phantom> just ban me00:17
nikoafter i asked him to be friendly, respect rules, etc00:18
nikoso feel free to replace the quiet by a kban, or i can do ..00:18
Seeker`niko: feel free, its your quiet00:20
nikoso it will be removed in 58 minutes00:21
Tm_Toh the joys of ddos00:24
=== ryanakca_ is now known as ryanakca
Tm_Trindeed, the joys of DDOS00:50
ubottuHFSPLUS called the ops in #ubuntu ()02:05
elkywho wants to play his game this time? :(02:06
naliothwhat game is that?02:09
elkythe one where we wait for him to return?02:12
elkyrinse, repeat02:12
ubotturicerocket called the ops in #ubuntu ()02:20
dholbachgood morning06:28
Myrttianyone looked at it? is itt an automatix clone again?06:42
Myrttidholbach: ohai06:42
dholbachhi Myrtti06:42
mnainesok...I don't mean to intrude but ever since moving away from #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic, I've been getting horror stories about two ops06:59
mnainesIkonia and Flannel, to be exact...I keep hearing from those who have left #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic that both Flannel and Ikonia rule with iron fists06:59
mnainesEveryone I talk to in #club-ubuntu and the other open ubuntu rooms said they have had issues with how Ikonia, Flannel, and Topyli use their op privileges...Banning people over trivial things such as using ubottu too many times or in the wrong way07:01
mnainesIssues like that07:01
topylimnaines, thanks for voicing your concern. if you wish to make it more formal, you do need to provide some logs illustrating these issues, like a few incidents where the abuse of privileges happened07:02
mnainestopyli: Why should I have to do that?  You ops should be policing each other yourselves07:03
topyliwe are07:03
* elky raises an eyebrow.07:03
mnainesApparently not if you have not been aware of these incidents07:03
topylimnaines, i probably shouldn't be a part of this discussion though since i'm one of the ops you mentioned07:04
ubottuIf you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page.07:04
mnaineselky, that's just the thing...Most of the people I talked to would rather just find another room than argue their case with people that are impossible to reason with in the first place07:05
elkyI think you'll be hard pressed to find a part of the Ubuntu community that is going to judge upon accusation alone.07:06
mnainesHence the reason I left Ubuntu and Ubuntu-offtopic and went to a room that was more family-oriented07:06
elkyexcuse me while i go and roll on the floor laughing.07:06
mnainesIn #club-ubuntu, everyone knows how the ops do their jobs and they are quick to point out those facts07:07
mnainesOne individual I am talking to right now claims #ubuntu is a dictatorship and that the ops dictate what can be said as far as support issues are concerned07:07
mnainesIts a very closed room07:08
elkyyou walk in here, and expect us to condemn on hearsay, then tell us that room is family friendly?07:08
elkymnaines, #ubuntu is logged, and you can link to sections of logs. If you wish for this to be taken seriously then you're going to need to substantiate the claims that are being made.07:08
macomnaines: more family oriented? we have strict rules about language in #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic, so im not sure what you mean07:09
mnainesmaco: Spend a few days in #club-ubuntu and you will see what I mean...In that room, you can talk about anything so long as its not violent, threatening, or sexually descriptive07:10
maco...just the same as #ubuntu-offtopic, then?07:10
elkymnaines, i've seen the inside of that channel, and you are grossly misrepresenting it.07:10
macoand i dont hang out in that channel since some of the people there are known to be hostile toward #ubuntu ops and sometimes the idea that we even *have* ops07:10
mnainesmaco: And do you ever ask yourselves why they are hostile towards you?07:11
mnainesMaybe if you did you would understand why I am here right now07:11
macomnaines: i'm not an #ubuntu op07:11
macomnaines: and i know why this person is hostile. because they got in trouble for not following the rules and are holding a grudge07:11
elkymnaines, typically it's because we didn't let them have their way on things like being able to give false information and similar sorts of behaviour.07:11
Myrttithey have rules now? I've been told by several of my friends is #ubuntu-offtopic that the channel is awful and should be killed07:11
maco(the one im thinking of at least)07:12
Myrttiof course i don't have logs!07:12
mnainesmaco, the one I am talking to is sebsebseb07:12
elkyok, now i really am laughing.07:12
macomnaines: ah, him....07:12
macothe one who makes me promise in pm that i will not repeat what he says to me, that way he cant get in trouble when he says inappropriate things?07:12
elkyand it is "typical" situation i detail above in which case.07:13
elkymnaines, if sebsebseb would like to raise a specific complaint, he can follow the appeals process just like everyone else.07:13
mnaineselky, if they are giving false information, are they alerted to that fact?07:13
elkymnaines, repeatedly07:14
topylimnaines came here to discuss how to complain about a number of ubuntu ops though, not channel policy07:14
macoive seen people tell him his information is wrong and correct him many times07:14
mnainesmaco, he informed me that he left #ubuntu because he was banned many times not for giving false information but for misusing Ubottu and for language issue07:15
elkymnaines, those were also issues, yes. and for belittling folks07:15
mnainesWell, if Ubottu is there as a help tool, why ban people for using it to get help?07:16
macoits when you use it just to make it spam the channel that its a problem07:16
elkymnaines, i would prefer further discussion of this be through the proper processes. seb is not here to discuss the issues, and has yet to email or contact the IRCC.07:16
macowe ask that people experiment with the bot in PM07:16
mnainesmaco, is it possible to set a time limit on ubottu so that people can use it only once in a preset amount of time?07:17
mnainesThat would be the easier way to remedy that situation07:17
macono idea. i didnt write it :P07:17
elkyit has that function already. however this is not the only mode of abuse possible.07:17
Myrttisome people have valid reasons for using the bot often...07:17
macosometimes there are legitimate reasons to use it twice though07:17
topylii would like to see logs about someone being banned for legitimate use of the bot. if that has happened, then clearly we have made a mistake07:17
mnainestopyli: Well, from what I have been hearing, the legitimate use has been to get information about how to behave in that room, but the frequency of queries from the bot could mistakenly appear to be spam07:18
topylii would prefer not to comment on things that other people have heard07:19
mnainesSo then the issue becomes how many times per minute can someone use the bot before the use is no longer considered legit07:19
macoits not necessarily the rate, but the *purpose* as well07:20
mnainesBut then again, with how many people are in that room at any given time, if every single one of them queried the bot at least once all within a relatively quick span of time, that, too, would appear to be spam07:20
macoso like !botsnack a bunch of using !troll in an accusatory manner... versus "!sound | <user>" to answer a question07:21
mnainesThat I can understand, but someone querying the bot to learn about the language and COC rules and stuff07:21
macoit would *really* help if you could point us to the logs for when he was banned for using the bot though...07:22
macofor that matter, if you got him to come here and do so07:22
macoor to file a formal appeal07:22
macoor are you his lawyer now? :P07:22
Myrtti... are adviced to use the bot in pm07:22
mnainesmaco, I'm not a lawyer...Just someone who is asking why the ops don't do these kind of investigations on their own07:22
macomnaines: the irc council does investigate *IF* a complaint is filed07:23
Myrttimnaines: no formal complaint07:23
macogossip != formal complaint07:23
mnainesI mean, that channel is publicly logged, so any ops with enough free time on their hands could go back and review the logs before the logs are grepped07:23
macoah yes, we should take 48 hours out of our op duties, sleep time, food time, work time, and shower time to dig through logs at a user's behest...07:24
Myrttii don't think any of us  has access to the ungrepped logs07:24
macogot it!07:24
Myrttiapart our own07:24
mnainesmaco, part of your op duties should be reviewing the logs to look for any inconsistencies07:24
macomnaines: our op duties are to react to what is happening realtime. in our free time that we volunteer when we feel like it07:25
Myrtti*sigh* porridge time07:25
macoif someone cares enough to try to get unbanned, THEY can build their own defence07:25
mnainesmaco, that tells me you do not have enough people to effectively manage a room of that size07:25
Myrttimnaines: eh07:25
macowe're not here to be both prosecution and defence lawyers07:26
macowe're just the cops07:26
mnainesThat's the exact same thing Yahoo is doing now...Yahoo got in big-time legal trouble for allowing sexual predators to use their rooms to prey on young girls, so Yahoo started logging their chat rooms but they never review their logs...Well, guess what?  Illegal activity still occurs in their chat rooms07:27
mnainesBut nothing is ever done about it07:27
macowe're not logging-without-watching07:27
macowe're watching the channel and responding in real time to issues07:27
macoif soemone believes they were not the source of what one of us saw as an issue...they can ask for it to be reconsidered07:27
macowhy should i go re-read the logs for a channel when i was *right there watching it as it happened*?07:28
mnainesmaco: And why can't you recruit more ops to do that for them as a sort of checks and balances?07:28
macodo you think we don't call each other out?07:28
mnainesI have never seen you guys do such a thing07:28
macowe dont do it in there, we do it in here07:28
macoive been reprimanded for banning when i should've given a warning first07:29
mnainesYes, but you don't allow regular users to come in here and witness some of that stuff07:29
macowhy should we?07:29
macothat it happens is all that matters07:29
mnainesPlausible deniability...You can claim it happens all you want, but without proof...07:30
macothe point is: yes, we do tell each other to calm down and take a break if we think someone's getting too trigger happy07:30
macothis channel is logged as well. have fun.07:30
Myrttimnaines: ircclogs.ubuntu.com07:30
macoer only 1 c07:30
topylimnaines, you really should point out where misconduct has happened. there is no way we can routinely review all logs, it's quite impossible given our nature as a volunteer group. we also trust each other by default. now, if you could point out a few incidents of misconduct, we would have something to work on. until then, we can't really discuss07:30
Myrtti meh typo07:30
macothough...hmm... clogs to wear while irc-ing?07:30
elkyonce again07:30
mnainestopyli: That will be something I shall do when I get enough free time07:31
ubottuIf you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page.07:31
Myrttifree time?07:31
mnainesI get plenty of free time each week07:31
topylii've heard of it07:31
Myrttiwhere did i just hear that?07:31
mnainesBetween my girlfriend, my freelance writing job, and my photography work, I still get at least 48 hours of free time each week07:32
macoMyrtti: freetime is that time you could have if you skipped sleep07:32
Myrttii prefer sleep07:32
mnainesAnd that includes 8 hours of sleep each night07:32
Myrttii get only 5 :-(07:32
maco4 for me07:32
macosometimes 507:32
mnainesI'm surprised I get the full 8 because I'm a caffeine addictr07:32
macowhen i dont have to get up for work or school on the weekends, sometimes i get 6 or 7!07:33
mnainesYou'll never find me without a bottle of Bawls G33k b33r in my hand07:33
macoworst rootbeer EVAR07:33
mnainesRoot-beer-flavored caffeine is all that is07:33
macogotta get you some Boylan's rootbeer!07:34
Myrttii'm on vacation now, get 7 hours and use my big computer once a week07:34
macodelicious!  though if you want caffeinated and still tasty: Barq's07:34
mnainesSome nights I sleep like a dead man, other nights I barely sleep at all07:34
macobut really... eww @ g33k b33r. it doesnt even taste like rootbeer07:34
topyliplease join #ubuntu-offtopic for root beer bashing/appreciation :)07:34
* topyli polices07:34
mnainesOh, well...I must go off to dreamland07:34
Myrtti12... that would explain things07:35
* jussi01 waves, thankful for the warm office07:36
* Gary shivers, my office is teh cold :'(07:37
Myrttiva-va-vacation - lovely under the quilt in bed07:38
nixternalisn't bawls more like cream soda than it is root beer?07:39
maconixternal: bawls makes a rootbeer now. it's terrible.07:39
nixternalnm, seems they have a new flavor07:39
jussi01Gary: well our office is warm, but outside is -3007:40
nixternalsupposed to have an MC meeting at 01:00 Chicago time, now it should happen at 02:00...oh I am exhausted07:40
nixternaljussi01: I am not far off from that temp here in chicago07:40
nixternalit will be that tomorrow actually07:40
nixternalbut we just got another foot of snow and it is still falling07:40
nixternalwe now have well over 3 feet of snow :/07:40
jussi01nixternal: sounds fun... :D07:41
jussi01nixternal: is that -30 c or f07:41
nixternalno, I can't shovel anymore snow...or snow blow it for that matter07:41
nixternal-30c with windchill07:42
nixternal-20c regular07:42
jussi01yeah, its -30C regular here...07:42
* jussi01 shivers07:42
nixternal-3f give or take a degree07:42
nixternalyeah, we haven't gotten super cold this season luckily07:42
nixternalwho knows, maybe that internet inventor is right07:43
* Flannel stretches.07:43
FlannelIt's 45 here right now in the middle of the night07:43
jussi01one fine day, in the middle of the night...07:43
FlannelToday it was 70ish07:43
jussi012 dead men got up to fight...07:43
jussi01back to back, they faced each other...07:44
jussi01drew thier swords and shot eachother..07:44
jussi01sorry, your "middle of the night" reminded me of that07:44
Tm_Thi kids07:45
Tm_Tnice, again someone comes here and says "no you don't do your job properly, let me tell you how it should be done" (:)07:46
topylii wish he'd told us, but he didn't. we still don't know! :)07:48
Tm_Ttopyli: but he told he knows how how it should done, that's what matters (;)07:49
* jussi01 sighs... scrollback was fun08:00
jussi01ikonia: ping08:00
ikoniahello yes08:40
jussi01ikonia: PM?08:40
ikoniabut of course08:40
mneptoktopyli : ikonia : Flannel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4yHyHdJK5g <-- enjoy08:45
ikoniawith the utmost respect a known "issue user" telling me about gossip of another known issue user carries little weight for me, if there is a situation where I've been to harsh I'm happy to look at it, but with those two users alone - I know I've not08:55
ikoniathis is the 3rd / 4th time sebsebseb has made this sort of wild accusation about me and others, and I'm getting tired of it, I'm going to ask him to join #ubuntu-ops when he's next active to resolve this08:56
mneptokikonia: the process is made clear in the !appeals factoid, i personally see no reason to cloud the issue by circumventing policy and asking him to discuss it here.09:03
mneptokone man's opinion.09:03
ikoniathat's fine - I'm not asking him to appeal09:03
ikoniaI want to know why he's joining channels and making these accusations to people, as I said this is the 3rd/4th times and I've spoke to him about it once in private and he agreed to stop and he was wrong - clearly he has some other agenda here09:04
jussi01ikonia: its simple trolling. thats all09:05
FlannelOr he's just bitter, or mnaines has the agenda and is overstating seb3's stance/etc09:05
jussi01Just one other thing, for all of you who are regular helpers in #u, are you using #ubuntu-meta?09:05
Flanneljussi01: I am!09:05
ikoniaFlannel: mnaines has been a problem in the past and couldn't follow the rules, sebsebseb is a persistnat problem, neither hold much water for me at this time, that said, I KNOW sebsebseb does this and I'm quite tired o it09:05
* mneptok is not09:06
mneptokikonia: so ignore it blissfully.09:06
jussi01Id like to ask for those helpers who are using it, please blog about it, and tell other helpers it exists, as its very useful and can hhelp improve our levels of support09:06
FlannelIf I had a blog, I'd blog about it.09:06
FlannelBut I'd blog about pastebin first09:07
FlannelNo offense :)09:07
FlannelOoh, that seems to be settled?09:07
jussi01Flannel: ?09:08
jussi01Flannel: the openid issue?09:09
Flannelhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/ isn't asking for OpenID09:09
jussi01yeah sorted a few days back09:09
FlannelAh.  I've been busy this week09:09
tsimpsonFlannel: if you try the "Download as text" link, it will09:10
Flanneltsimpson: Really?  That seems asinine.09:11
tsimpsonyep, so now it's only half broken09:12
FlannelThat's to cut down on bots? or what?09:12
tsimpsonno idea09:12
sebsebsebikonia: hi09:13
ikoniasebsebseb: thank you for joining, I'd just like to log formally in this channel my comments and you're responses. I'd like to note for the record that I have found out earlier from today that you have been making slanderous remarks about myself and other operators and #ubuntu channels in general, I've asked you to stop this and you agreed to do this. I've found out again today that you have been doing the same thing,09:14
ikoniaI'd first like to ask why you did this ? do you have a problem, a complaint, and issue, or something we can genuinly resolve ?09:14
ikoniaaccusations have been made and I'd like clarification09:15
sebsebsebI went to club ubuntu09:16
sebsebsebgot into a pm with someone09:17
ikoniastep back09:17
ikonia"why" did you get into a pm with someone about this09:18
sebsebsebit wasn't about that, just one thing lead to another09:18
ikoniaactually - apologies, I should let you finish09:18
sebsebsebsince I touch type I can easily type in stuff without properly thinking.09:20
sebsebsebthey wanted to finnish off a convo in pm09:21
sebsebsebwe talked about a few things09:23
ikoniaok - so how did you come to the situation of telling the user that 3 ops abuse their privileges ?09:24
sebsebsebI didn't say that09:24
ikoniaok - would you like to make clear your statement in here, as this user has made accusations and part of them he has said where from you,09:25
ikoniathat's the reasons I'm asking you to speak in here to get on record if there are any problems (we can address and fix them if there are)09:25
sebsebsebthe other person09:26
sebsebsebwas probably a troll09:27
ikoniasebsebseb: with respect, you have had that badge in the past, hence why I'm asking you to clarify09:27
ikoniait is quite plausable you said these things as I have caught you saying them before,09:27
ikoniathat is why I'm asking you to clarify what the issue is with the #ubuntu channels or #ubuntu operators09:28
sebsebsebI am the type of person that can easilly remember a lot of negative stuff from the past, that has happended.  maybe it's, because I have some Aspergers Syndrome09:29
ikoniasebsebseb: that excuse is not acceptable any more09:29
ikoniasebsebseb: I am asking you to clarify what your complaint is09:30
ikoniaif there is a complaint - we can work on fixing and resolving it, but I need a clear explaination of what that complaint is09:30
ikoniabased on the person you where talking to, you had a lot of complaints and issues with the channels and operators, so if they exist, tell us and we'll try to resolve them09:31
sebsebsebUbuntu channels  are ok really at the moment,  except for off topic I suppouse.  well  take last night for example09:31
ikoniaI'm sorry if I'm being blunt - I'm just tring to be %101 clear09:31
ikoniasebsebseb: enlighten us the problem with #ubuntu-offtopic09:31
sebsebsebI joined and got LJL and RWW being stupid,  something very similar happended about two months ago, but I ignored it.09:32
sebsebsebI joined and it started straight away last night09:32
ikoniaI agree people can be stupid in there, and I'm not a fan of it personally and try to stop it myself, that said, it's not agaist the rules to be stupid09:32
ikoniaand I agree situations I saw last night where also stupid09:33
sebsebsebwell  they were trying to wind me up09:33
ikoniaahh, I didn't see that09:33
sebsebsebget a reaction,  at first I wasn't messaging at all09:33
ikoniawhat do you mean by messaging - talking in the channel ?09:33
sebsebseb,but they put stuff untill  I did.  well those two  seem to not like me,  which was made clear actsaully last time in pm to me, when something similar happended.09:33
sebsebsebyes in the channel it happended09:34
ikoniasebsebseb: but you where not talking to anyone in pm at the time ?09:34
ikoniaand you where not talking in the channel either ?09:34
ikonia(again just trying to be clear)09:35
sebsebsebsaying  stuff to wind me  up bully me, annoy me, whatever the reason.  to do with  my bot useage in #ubuntu  that I did a lot of last year.  the first time that happended.  I pm'd them about it, and asked,  and it was made clear to me in pm that they didn't exactly like me.09:35
sebsebsebis why09:35
sebsebsebthose two09:35
sebsebsebwhy I don't feel that welcome in off topic, hence giving club ubuntu a try again,  every now and again09:36
ikoniaok, well, first of all, I'll look at the logs last night to check that, I assure you. Second that complaint you've just made is nothing to do with the rules in the ubuntu channels or the operators, which is what the person you where talking to last night said you had a problem with09:36
ikoniasebsebseb: don't forget if you are not happy with someones behaviour you can always join here and report it, or call the !ops trigger if you need it urgently09:36
sebsebsebyeah I started saying in pm,  similar stuff that I have said before to people in pm09:37
ikoniacould you clarify what that is09:37
sebsebsebwith an idea that I am not actsaully liked by  some of the Ubuntu ops  including yourself and Flannel09:37
ikonia(rough overview - doesn't need to be word for word)09:37
ikoniaok, this is making more sense09:38
ikoniathat ties in what he was saying, although he was making more serious complaints in your name09:38
topylilooking at -ot logs from yesterday, i see a couple of humorous comments about sebsebseb's silence after joining, and how much you were supposedly missed. nothing unusual for -ot.09:39
Tm_Tsebsebseb: and fyi I have hint of AS too, with other things (:09:39
ikoniasebsebseb: if you feel people don't like you, I understand that's not nice, part of the problem is you have a resputation as being a problem user based on your long history,09:39
ikoniapeople will monitor you more close due to your history (and events like there where you cause other people to becoming involved in your personal perceptions)09:39
sebsebsebtopyli: last time it was a bit like that as well, but RWW made it clear in pm that he didn't like me,  maybe LJL as well09:40
ikoniasebsebseb: they are not obliged to like you09:40
sebsebsebthat particualr guy by the way said to watch out for topyli09:40
sebsebseband that ikona and flannel are like brothers09:40
sebsebsebI asked what he meant by like brothers, but never got a reply09:40
sebsebsebto that09:40
ikoniaas long as they are not causing you any discrimination or abusive behaviour, just ignore them09:40
sebsebsebguy as in the one  from tonight09:41
ikoniayup, I understand09:41
ikoniaso if I may paraphrase, your complaint is (and it's not really a complaint) is that you feel like a few operators and channel members don't like you very much09:41
sebsebsebafter something I had put, he was taking a while to reply,  and I got the impression that it might be, because he had joined here, and was trying to cause trouble09:41
sebsebsebthat person made it clear enough in pm to me, that he wanted to cause some trouble09:42
ikoniawell - lets not worry about him any futher and try to rsolve your issue09:42
sebsebseband ideally have other people complaining about ops, so they can get together, and  complain together. witnesses etc09:42
ikoniaif there is something to complain about, thats fine, we can look at it, mistakes and bad judmgent can happen, if there are logs/examples more the better09:43
ikoniadon't shy away from a genuine complaint09:43
jussi01!away > jasonjang09:43
ikoniasebsebseb: bottom line is a.) you do have a history so people will monitor you more close than others until they have confidence in your behaiviour (bad mouthing to other people doesn't help)09:44
ikoniasebsebseb: b.) people don't have to like you, based on some of your earlier behaviour it may take a while for people to forget and put it past you, but as long as they are not abusing you, or being rude etc you're just going to have to ignore it until they have faith in you (as with point a) if there are any problems that you feel overstep the line, contact the operators in here09:45
ikoniaI do understand how that can feel alienating though (both point a and b) but that's part of growing up - excepting the consiquence of your earlier behaviour, I promise it will go away if you can keep your head09:45
sebsebsebmy earlier before, swearing in the channel?   and what else?09:46
sebsebsebnot before, don't like when I type wrong word09:46
ikoniasebsebseb: you've got a long history of questionable behaviour in #ubuntu09:46
ikoniado you really want to go all through it again ?09:47
sebsebsebno I guess not09:47
ikoniayou know your behaviour has not been good in the past, so I'm guessing you feel this way as people remember it, it will go though09:47
ikoniacomplaining to people randomly as you have done now on multiple occasions won't help, more so if they have their own personal agendas09:48
ikoniathat said - having a genuine issue or complaint will always be addressed in here09:48
sebsebsebyeah that second part,  I think I learnt that now for sure09:48
ikoniaso don't feel you can't say something to anyone09:48
ikoniaif you're not comfortable with myself or Flannel then talk to one of the other operator there are plenty in here09:48
ikoniano-one will refuse a pm from you if you feel it's personal09:48
ikoniasebsebseb: thank you for coming and clarifying your comments, I felt it important to get them on record based on the accusations the other user was making09:50
sebsebsebwhen I started helping a lot in #ubuntu  it had been after a few bad months,  on the verge of depression.   and I wasn't that good in the channel to begin with,  swearing abrivations for example yeah. and that kind of stuff didn't help my reputation which I remember you saying at the time09:51
ikoniaok - so in my mind your reputation is going, (or was) but it keeps popping up with issues like this09:51
ikoniastick with it and it will go,09:52
sebsebsebsome of my support wasn't that great in #ubuntu really I guess,  but I tried.  and well I helped a lot of people last year in there as well.   Then the whole using the bot maybe a little bit to much,  and being dictated to sometimes about how to use the bot,  which annoyed me quite a lot at the time.09:52
ikoniaI fully understand that09:52
sebsebsebI don't know if you people know09:54
sebsebsebI guess some of you do09:54
sebsebsebthey are working on a proper  Ubuntu Manual for beginners who have come from Windows and Mac OS X09:54
ikoniaI'm aware of some of that09:54
sebsebsebthat isn't offical yet, but they will be trying to get it to become offical. and part of the ISO even.   nice little channel that one as well etc.   anyway hopefuly that becomes a success,  means I would help much less in #ubuntu as well.  since  I was mainly doing basics anyway09:55
ikoniasebsebseb: there is no problem with you helping in #ubuntu at all09:56
ikoniadon't feel that way, you're more than welcome,09:57
sebsebseboh you have noticed I haven't been helping their that much recently?09:57
ikonianot really no09:58
sebsebsebwell  I have done weeks where I haven't gone in there at all recently.  Since I got other things I want to do.09:59
sebsebseband not that keen on Karmic anyway09:59
sebsebsebhence why I put Mandriva on this computer09:59
sebsebsebanyway I guess we are done really in here now, unless there's something else?10:00
jussi01sebsebseb: thanks for coming in and explaining, its helpful :)10:00
sebsebsebI am not so sure about Lucid for my own computer useage,  but with the manual being properly advertised and all that,  I think there's a chance of it maybe gaining some market share, that is a bit more proper.10:01
sebsebsebanyway ok10:01
elkysebsebseb, you're still in the channel10:03
ikoniasorry, my phone went10:05
elkyi'm wondering, did I go to sleep and i'm dreaming up fictional encounters for lulz again?10:28
ikoniahello Jordan_U10:58
Jordan_Uikonia: Hi10:59
ikoniaJordan_U: how can we help today ?11:00
Jordan_Uikonia: "02:54 < Jordan_U> !google | quintin_ isolat3dsh33p"11:01
ikoniaJordan_U: if you're talking about quintin_ I'm watching him and trying to engage him in a pm11:01
Jordan_Uikonia: Yes11:01
Jordan_UThank you11:01
persiaIf someone is cool, and wants to knock a spammer, files2{2,u}@ could use some investigation :)13:33
persiacf. #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-motu13:33
bazhanghitting many more channels as well13:33
persiaI thought so.  Aren't there ways to make that not happen?13:34
PiciI'll bug freenode13:36
Picior bazhang will13:36
bazhangjust told them persia Pici13:36
bazhangwhoops :)13:37
persiaThanks :)13:37
jribbunch of clones just joined #ubuntu13:47
jriband there they go13:47
ubottuFloodBot1 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (CTCP/NOTICE)13:49
ubottuFloodBot4 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (CTCP/NOTICE)13:49
ubottuFloodBot2 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (CTCP/NOTICE)13:49
ubottuFloodBot3 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (CTCP/NOTICE)13:49
bazhangkottizen ?13:49
jpdsYeah, they're having fun.13:50
bazhangso that was spoofing the actual user kottizen then13:50
* MenZa waves to christel.15:22
christelheya MenZa :)15:24
bazhangbaribal recommended it to suman16:07
Myrttiyeah, a joke16:07
ubottucn aliases: zh, tw, chinese, china - added by ompaul on 2006-06-18 00:52:4516:29
* Pici sighs16:31
MyrttiPici: did you get it sorted?16:36
PiciMyrtti: Yeah, I'm talking to him in pm16:36
Myrttithought so16:37
jpds17:11:25 < ~ttbabie> hi room 18 female here but iam bi17:12
jussi01and they quit17:13
geniiHm. "405 #ubuntu-ca You can't join that many channels"18:38
jpdsWell, 405 channels does sound excessive.18:41
geniiI only have ~20 going18:42
jpds20 is the limit on Freenode...18:43
topyligenii, ubuntu-offtopic counts as 49018:43
topylierr, 39018:44
Picigenii: You can ask for an extension in #freenode18:45
* Pici doesnt know how he was only in 20 channels before he got +u18:46
=== Dominian is now known as Dominoman
=== Dominoman is now known as Dominian
jussi01Pici: I have same feeling19:01
geniiPici: Thanks.19:01
geniiIf it gets extended how do I know? Chanserv msg?19:05
PiciYou should see something about being granted +u19:06
geniiLooks like no ones awake in there19:09
ubottuIn ubottu, Pici said: googleit is <alias> google19:10
ubottuThe operation succeeded.19:10
ubottuIn ubottu, guntbert said: !no eol is <reply> End-Of-Life is the time when security updates for an Ubuntu release stop. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases . For Upgrades from such versions see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades .19:16
ubottuEnd-Of-Life is the time when security updates for an Ubuntu release stop. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases19:16
geniiYay, +u19:21
Tm_Tgenii: hadn't before?19:23
geniiTm_T: Nah. Was usually in 15-18 but added recently #ubuntu-eeepc and #libbluray where I started to hit the wall19:26
ubottuiceroot called the ops in #ubuntu (msconfing1)19:35
Myrttishould he be muted?19:38
geniiHm... niko is asking me to /msg nickserv set accountname genii        .. is this to set my primary name to that? (I think my primary is actually genii-around)19:39
PiciIs there a problem for you?19:40
geniiPici: No, njan set me +u already and it works. Just wondering what the niko thing is about19:41
Piciniko is in this channel, you know19:41
nikogenii: that's only to have your accountname match your cloak, nothing else :)19:41
PiciWhich njan should have checked, but /shrug19:42
Piciniko: The channel access lists will update themselves with the new account, right?19:42
geniiniko: OK, I'll do it19:42
Myrtti!away > Claudiu__20:48
ubottuesd is the enlightened sound deamon. It's deprecated, use !alsa instead23:11
erUSUL!no, esd is <reply>esd is the enlightened sound deamon. It's deprecated, use !pulseaudio instead23:12
ubottuIn #ubuntu-ops, erUSUL said: !no, esd is <reply>esd is the enlightened sound deamon. It's deprecated, use !pulseaudio instead23:12
elkysee, you don't need to come here specifically23:16
erUSULi know23:16
erUSULmost edit request get lost through the cracks this days. maybe comming here raises the chances of this being acepted23:17
erUSULbut anyway; i'm off if my pressence bothers you23:18
ubottuIn ubottu, nhandler said: !no esd is <reply>esd is the enlightened sound daemon. It is deprecated, use !pulseaudio instead.23:26
ubottuThe operation succeeded.23:26
nhandler!no esd is <reply>esd is the enlightened sound daemon. It is deprecated, use !pulseaudio instead.23:27
ubottuI'll remember that nhandler23:27
coolkehoni need the shellium vhost unbaned from #ubuntu plz23:28
ubottuHelp! Channel emergency! (ONLY use this trigger in emergencies) -  elky, Madpilot, tritium, Nalioth, tonyyarusso, PriceChild, Amaranth, jrib, Myrtti, mneptok, Pici, Jack_Sparrow, jpds, bazhang, jussi01, Flannel or ikonia!23:29
ubottucoolkehon called the ops in #ubuntu-ops ()23:29
jribcoolkehon: please don't do that23:29
jribcoolkehon: I'm checking23:29
jribcoolkehon: can you explain comments by Melvinov here http://paste.ubuntu.com/353684/23:31
coolkehonone sec23:31
coolkehongimme a sec pls23:34
jribcoolkehon: sure23:34
coolkehonwas waiting for an admin of shellium.org to review23:36
coolkehon*still waiting23:36
coolkehonjrib, i can't speak for that one guy but it looks like he abused the vhost23:36
coolkehoni think somewhere in the rules on shellium.org that you can't get banned anything like that because it hurts the other users23:37
mneptoki see nothing about terms of use or rules on the shellium site.23:38
coolkehondid you check the wiki23:38
coolkehonrules are there23:38
coolkehonwell more rules23:38
FloopsSorry hands was full trying to finish up something23:39
naliothhi Floops23:39
Floopswhere they more than one case of person behaving bad with our system23:39
mneptoki see no terms of use on the wiki, either.23:39
Floopsthat no one can login from our ips23:40
Floopsto ubuntu channel23:40
coolkehonhi Floops23:40
jribFloops: Melvinov's actions here http://paste.ubuntu.com/353684/ .  That's the only case I know of23:40
Floopsi see this23:40
ubottuThe operation succeeded.23:40
Floopsreason why i asm asking23:40
Floopsif this is a once case senerio23:41
Floopswhy no one is allow to get in now23:41
Floopsfrom the ban put on @shellium.org23:41
mneptokjrib: there are quite a few examples of banned Shellium users, actually.23:41
naliothFloops: it's not a "once case scenario". :(  unfortuantely, shellium is used quite a bit for abuse23:42
Floopssoo why is it not being report23:42
Floopsto admin who manager the shellium here23:42
Floopsi seen if freenode staffer have issue23:42
Floopsthey reported23:42
Floops it23:42
mneptokit's not our job to monitor your users for you.23:42
Floopsit not monitor our using23:42
Floopsif u have issue with them23:42
Floopsor i hav eissue with some23:43
Floopsi ask a question23:43
Floopsis that monitroting23:43
mneptokit's our job to make sure the Ubuntu IRC channels are useful and operate well. thus far, they seem to be better without Shellium users than with23:43
naliothFloops: again, due to the open nature of your service, it's easier to just ban it totally.  Yes, single user's accounts are removed, but more are created and the abuse continues  :(23:43
elkyFloops, is there a defined process that we would follow. a web form, an email address, etc?23:43
Floopsif i see issue23:44
Floopsi would report to admin@shellium.org23:44
Floopsbut i guessing this is set in its way23:44
Floopswhich is totally understandable23:44
Floopsfor abuse23:44
Floopsand we do handle abuse with removal of account23:44
Floopsthanks for your help23:44
mneptokFloops: require a US$10 one-time payment for access to IRC clients or BNC. create terms of use that are clear about what you will tolerate and what you will not. and ban users from your system found to be breaking those rules. it's far less likely for people to abuse systems they have paid for.23:45
* nalioth shrugs23:46
elkyit's probably worth considering a trial of process one weekend when someone is guaranteed able to sit and play whack-a-mole to demonstrate the point to him23:46
mneptokelky: if i were him i'd block access to the IRC clients except to a chosen few during that time, and make you eat your words.23:47
elkymneptok, i doubt he'd be able to keep that up for long ;)23:48
coolkehonuhh not to interfere or anything since it isn't my site... but not all users use it to do bad things and they do ban a lot of people for doing stuff (stupid stuff sometimes too).23:48
coolkehonit's like with hackers23:48
coolkehonnot every hacker is bad23:48
coolkehonthere are just a lot of hackers and some of them do bad things23:48
coolkehonso those are the only ones you'll ever notice really23:49
elkycoolkehon, it's a noise:signal ratio we base it on. where the noise is the bad guys and signal the not bad guys. there's more bad guys than good guys on shellium :(23:49
Floopsby the way23:49
coolkehoni use ubuntu23:49
Floopsi didn't mean to sounds rude23:49
Floopsjust wanted to say that23:49
Floopsjust incase i came off that way23:49
coolkehonelky, then why not ban the individual by nick and ident and only allow registered users to speak in the channel ?23:50
mneptokFloops: you're like Miss Manners when compared to most of your users. ;)23:50
mneptokcoolkehon: because most Ubuntu users are not registered Freenode users.23:50
coolkehongood point23:51
mneptokcoolkehon: we're not going to make #ubuntu a substandard resource just because one free shell provider would benefit from it.23:51
coolkehonhmm i'll try to think of a way to solve it23:51
mneptokcoolkehon: get another shell host?23:51
mneptokcoolkehon: or just run an IRC client locally?23:52
coolkehonmneptok, i know some people and i think its best i keep my ip from them ;)23:52
coolkehonalso i have another shell23:52
jrib!cloak | coolkehon23:52
ubottuMany Ubuntu IRC channels prohibit access from !proxies such as TOR due to a high level of abuse. You can however obtain a hostmask cloak: see http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks23:52
ubottucoolkehon: please see above23:52
coolkehonits not just me23:53
coolkehonyeah i know23:53
coolkehoni have a cloak also23:53
mneptokthen there you go.23:53
coolkehoni use mine instead of shelliums23:53
mneptok"he who lies down with dogs gets up with fleas," grasshopper.23:54
coolkehoni pounce with the lions23:54
elkycoolkehon, against the brick wall that is our proxy policy.23:54
coolkehonso there is no way you can just ban users ident and username and then send an email to the admin@shellium.org23:55
* coolkehon is trying to find a middle ground kind of fix23:55
mneptokcoolkehon: add an extra hour to every Ubuntu ops' day and we'll consider it.23:56
coolkehonshellium users aren't disturbing #ubuntu that often are they23:56
mneptokalmost a ban per month last year23:58
coolkehonone ban per month really doesn't seem that much... then again i don't usually admin irc's especially those as large as #ubuntu23:59

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