[00:07] <niko> no ops around ?
[00:10] <Seeker`> niko: you going to remove him, or just keep him quiet
[00:11] <niko> Seeker`: for the moment it's one hour quiet
[00:11] <niko> i try to talk with him
[00:12] <niko> hum, seems to fail to catalyst
 just ban me
[00:18] <niko> after i asked him to be friendly, respect rules, etc
[00:18] <niko> so feel free to replace the quiet by a kban, or i can do ..
[00:20] <Seeker`> niko: feel free, its your quiet
[00:21] <niko> so it will be removed in 58 minutes
[00:24] <Tm_T> oh the joys of ddos
[00:50] <Tm_Tr> indeed, the joys of DDOS
[02:06] <elky> who wants to play his game this time? :(
[02:09] <nalioth> what game is that?
[02:12] <elky> the one where we wait for him to return?
[02:12] <elky> rinse, repeat
[06:26] <Myrtti> ubuntuzilla?
[06:28] <dholbach> good morning
[06:42] <Myrtti> anyone looked at it? is itt an automatix clone again?
[06:42] <Myrtti> dholbach: ohai
[06:42] <dholbach> hi Myrtti
[06:59] <mnaines> ok...I don't mean to intrude but ever since moving away from #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic, I've been getting horror stories about two ops
[06:59] <mnaines> Ikonia and Flannel, to be exact...I keep hearing from those who have left #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic that both Flannel and Ikonia rule with iron fists
[07:01] <mnaines> Everyone I talk to in #club-ubuntu and the other open ubuntu rooms said they have had issues with how Ikonia, Flannel, and Topyli use their op privileges...Banning people over trivial things such as using ubottu too many times or in the wrong way
[07:01] <mnaines> Issues like that
[07:02] <topyli> mnaines, thanks for voicing your concern. if you wish to make it more formal, you do need to provide some logs illustrating these issues, like a few incidents where the abuse of privileges happened
[07:03] <mnaines> topyli: Why should I have to do that?  You ops should be policing each other yourselves
[07:03] <topyli> we are
[07:03]  * elky raises an eyebrow.
[07:03] <mnaines> Apparently not if you have not been aware of these incidents
[07:04] <topyli> mnaines, i probably shouldn't be a part of this discussion though since i'm one of the ops you mentioned
[07:04] <elky> !appeals
[07:05] <mnaines> elky, that's just the thing...Most of the people I talked to would rather just find another room than argue their case with people that are impossible to reason with in the first place
[07:06] <elky> I think you'll be hard pressed to find a part of the Ubuntu community that is going to judge upon accusation alone.
[07:06] <mnaines> Hence the reason I left Ubuntu and Ubuntu-offtopic and went to a room that was more family-oriented
[07:06] <elky> excuse me while i go and roll on the floor laughing.
[07:07] <mnaines> In #club-ubuntu, everyone knows how the ops do their jobs and they are quick to point out those facts
[07:07] <mnaines> One individual I am talking to right now claims #ubuntu is a dictatorship and that the ops dictate what can be said as far as support issues are concerned
[07:08] <mnaines> Its a very closed room
[07:08] <elky> you walk in here, and expect us to condemn on hearsay, then tell us that room is family friendly?
[07:08] <elky> mnaines, #ubuntu is logged, and you can link to sections of logs. If you wish for this to be taken seriously then you're going to need to substantiate the claims that are being made.
[07:09] <maco> mnaines: more family oriented? we have strict rules about language in #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic, so im not sure what you mean
[07:10] <mnaines> maco: Spend a few days in #club-ubuntu and you will see what I mean...In that room, you can talk about anything so long as its not violent, threatening, or sexually descriptive
[07:10] <maco> ...just the same as #ubuntu-offtopic, then?
[07:10] <elky> mnaines, i've seen the inside of that channel, and you are grossly misrepresenting it.
[07:10] <maco> and i dont hang out in that channel since some of the people there are known to be hostile toward #ubuntu ops and sometimes the idea that we even *have* ops
[07:11] <mnaines> maco: And do you ever ask yourselves why they are hostile towards you?
[07:11] <mnaines> Maybe if you did you would understand why I am here right now
[07:11] <maco> mnaines: i'm not an #ubuntu op
[07:11] <maco> mnaines: and i know why this person is hostile. because they got in trouble for not following the rules and are holding a grudge
[07:11] <elky> mnaines, typically it's because we didn't let them have their way on things like being able to give false information and similar sorts of behaviour.
[07:11] <Myrtti> they have rules now? I've been told by several of my friends is #ubuntu-offtopic that the channel is awful and should be killed
[07:12] <maco> (the one im thinking of at least)
[07:12] <Myrtti> of course i don't have logs!
[07:12] <mnaines> maco, the one I am talking to is sebsebseb
[07:12] <elky> ok, now i really am laughing.
[07:12] <maco> mnaines: ah, him....
[07:12] <maco> the one who makes me promise in pm that i will not repeat what he says to me, that way he cant get in trouble when he says inappropriate things?
[07:13] <elky> and it is "typical" situation i detail above in which case.
[07:13] <elky> mnaines, if sebsebseb would like to raise a specific complaint, he can follow the appeals process just like everyone else.
[07:13] <mnaines> elky, if they are giving false information, are they alerted to that fact?
[07:14] <elky> mnaines, repeatedly
[07:14] <topyli> mnaines came here to discuss how to complain about a number of ubuntu ops though, not channel policy
[07:14] <maco> ive seen people tell him his information is wrong and correct him many times
[07:15] <mnaines> maco, he informed me that he left #ubuntu because he was banned many times not for giving false information but for misusing Ubottu and for language issue
[07:15] <mnaines> issues
[07:15] <elky> mnaines, those were also issues, yes. and for belittling folks
[07:16] <mnaines> Well, if Ubottu is there as a help tool, why ban people for using it to get help?
[07:16] <maco> its when you use it just to make it spam the channel that its a problem
[07:16] <elky> mnaines, i would prefer further discussion of this be through the proper processes. seb is not here to discuss the issues, and has yet to email or contact the IRCC.
[07:16] <maco> we ask that people experiment with the bot in PM
[07:17] <mnaines> maco, is it possible to set a time limit on ubottu so that people can use it only once in a preset amount of time?
[07:17] <mnaines> That would be the easier way to remedy that situation
[07:17] <maco> no idea. i didnt write it :P
[07:17] <elky> it has that function already. however this is not the only mode of abuse possible.
[07:17] <Myrtti> some people have valid reasons for using the bot often...
[07:17] <maco> sometimes there are legitimate reasons to use it twice though
[07:17] <topyli> i would like to see logs about someone being banned for legitimate use of the bot. if that has happened, then clearly we have made a mistake
[07:18] <maco> topyli++
[07:18] <mnaines> topyli: Well, from what I have been hearing, the legitimate use has been to get information about how to behave in that room, but the frequency of queries from the bot could mistakenly appear to be spam
[07:19] <Myrtti> hearsay--
[07:19] <topyli> i would prefer not to comment on things that other people have heard
[07:19] <mnaines> So then the issue becomes how many times per minute can someone use the bot before the use is no longer considered legit
[07:20] <maco> its not necessarily the rate, but the *purpose* as well
[07:20] <mnaines> But then again, with how many people are in that room at any given time, if every single one of them queried the bot at least once all within a relatively quick span of time, that, too, would appear to be spam
[07:21] <maco> so like !botsnack a bunch of using !troll in an accusatory manner... versus "!sound | <user>" to answer a question
[07:21] <mnaines> That I can understand, but someone querying the bot to learn about the language and COC rules and stuff
[07:22] <maco> it would *really* help if you could point us to the logs for when he was banned for using the bot though...
[07:22] <maco> for that matter, if you got him to come here and do so
[07:22] <maco> or to file a formal appeal
[07:22] <maco> or are you his lawyer now? :P
[07:22] <Myrtti> ... are adviced to use the bot in pm
[07:22] <mnaines> maco, I'm not a lawyer...Just someone who is asking why the ops don't do these kind of investigations on their own
[07:23] <maco> mnaines: the irc council does investigate *IF* a complaint is filed
[07:23] <Myrtti> mnaines: no formal complaint
[07:23] <maco> gossip != formal complaint
[07:23] <mnaines> I mean, that channel is publicly logged, so any ops with enough free time on their hands could go back and review the logs before the logs are grepped
[07:24] <maco> ah yes, we should take 48 hours out of our op duties, sleep time, food time, work time, and shower time to dig through logs at a user's behest...
[07:24] <Myrtti> i don't think any of us  has access to the ungrepped logs
[07:24] <maco> got it!
[07:24] <Myrtti> apart our own
[07:24] <mnaines> maco, part of your op duties should be reviewing the logs to look for any inconsistencies
[07:25] <maco> mnaines: our op duties are to react to what is happening realtime. in our free time that we volunteer when we feel like it
[07:25] <Myrtti> *sigh* porridge time
[07:25] <maco> if someone cares enough to try to get unbanned, THEY can build their own defence
[07:25] <mnaines> maco, that tells me you do not have enough people to effectively manage a room of that size
[07:25] <Myrtti> mnaines: eh
[07:26] <maco> why?
[07:26] <maco> we're not here to be both prosecution and defence lawyers
[07:26] <maco> we're just the cops
[07:27] <mnaines> That's the exact same thing Yahoo is doing now...Yahoo got in big-time legal trouble for allowing sexual predators to use their rooms to prey on young girls, so Yahoo started logging their chat rooms but they never review their logs...Well, guess what?  Illegal activity still occurs in their chat rooms
[07:27] <mnaines> But nothing is ever done about it
[07:27] <maco> we're not logging-without-watching
[07:27] <maco> we're watching the channel and responding in real time to issues
[07:27] <maco> if soemone believes they were not the source of what one of us saw as an issue...they can ask for it to be reconsidered
[07:28] <maco> why should i go re-read the logs for a channel when i was *right there watching it as it happened*?
[07:28] <mnaines> maco: And why can't you recruit more ops to do that for them as a sort of checks and balances?
[07:28] <maco> do you think we don't call each other out?
[07:28] <mnaines> I have never seen you guys do such a thing
[07:28] <maco> we dont do it in there, we do it in here
[07:29] <maco> ive been reprimanded for banning when i should've given a warning first
[07:29] <Myrtti> guided
[07:29] <mnaines> Yes, but you don't allow regular users to come in here and witness some of that stuff
[07:29] <maco> why should we?
[07:29] <maco> that it happens is all that matters
[07:30] <mnaines> Plausible deniability...You can claim it happens all you want, but without proof...
[07:30] <maco> the point is: yes, we do tell each other to calm down and take a break if we think someone's getting too trigger happy
[07:30] <maco> this channel is logged as well. have fun.
[07:30] <Myrtti> mnaines: ircclogs.ubuntu.com
[07:30] <maco> er only 1 c
[07:30] <topyli> mnaines, you really should point out where misconduct has happened. there is no way we can routinely review all logs, it's quite impossible given our nature as a volunteer group. we also trust each other by default. now, if you could point out a few incidents of misconduct, we would have something to work on. until then, we can't really discuss
[07:30] <Myrtti>  meh typo
[07:30] <maco> though...hmm... clogs to wear while irc-ing?
[07:30] <elky> once again
[07:31] <mnaines> topyli: That will be something I shall do when I get enough free time
[07:31] <elky> !appeals
[07:31] <Myrtti> free time?
[07:31] <mnaines> I get plenty of free time each week
[07:31] <topyli> i've heard of it
[07:31] <Myrtti> where did i just hear that?
[07:32] <mnaines> Between my girlfriend, my freelance writing job, and my photography work, I still get at least 48 hours of free time each week
[07:32] <maco> Myrtti: freetime is that time you could have if you skipped sleep
[07:32] <Myrtti> i prefer sleep
[07:32] <mnaines> And that includes 8 hours of sleep each night
[07:32] <Myrtti> i get only 5 :-(
[07:32] <maco> 4 for me
[07:32] <maco> sometimes 5
[07:32] <mnaines> I'm surprised I get the full 8 because I'm a caffeine addictr
[07:32] <mnaines> addict*
[07:33] <maco> when i dont have to get up for work or school on the weekends, sometimes i get 6 or 7!
[07:33] <mnaines> You'll never find me without a bottle of Bawls G33k b33r in my hand
[07:33] <maco> ewwww
[07:33] <maco> worst rootbeer EVAR
[07:33] <mnaines> Root-beer-flavored caffeine is all that is
[07:34] <maco> gotta get you some Boylan's rootbeer!
[07:34] <Myrtti> i'm on vacation now, get 7 hours and use my big computer once a week
[07:34] <maco> delicious!  though if you want caffeinated and still tasty: Barq's
[07:34] <mnaines> Some nights I sleep like a dead man, other nights I barely sleep at all
[07:34] <maco> but really... eww @ g33k b33r. it doesnt even taste like rootbeer
[07:34] <topyli> please join #ubuntu-offtopic for root beer bashing/appreciation :)
[07:34]  * topyli polices
[07:34] <maco> heh
[07:34] <mnaines> Oh, well...I must go off to dreamland
[07:35] <Myrtti> 12... that would explain things
[07:36]  * jussi01 waves, thankful for the warm office
[07:37]  * Gary shivers, my office is teh cold :'(
[07:38] <Myrtti> va-va-vacation - lovely under the quilt in bed
[07:39] <nixternal> isn't bawls more like cream soda than it is root beer?
[07:39] <maco> nixternal: bawls makes a rootbeer now. it's terrible.
[07:39] <nixternal> nm, seems they have a new flavor
[07:39] <nixternal> eww
[07:40] <jussi01> Gary: well our office is warm, but outside is -30
[07:40] <nixternal> supposed to have an MC meeting at 01:00 Chicago time, now it should happen at 02:00...oh I am exhausted
[07:40] <nixternal> jussi01: I am not far off from that temp here in chicago
[07:40] <nixternal> it will be that tomorrow actually
[07:40] <nixternal> but we just got another foot of snow and it is still falling
[07:40] <nixternal> we now have well over 3 feet of snow :/
[07:41] <jussi01> nixternal: sounds fun... :D
[07:41] <jussi01> nixternal: is that -30 c or f
[07:41] <nixternal> no, I can't shovel anymore snow...or snow blow it for that matter
[07:42] <nixternal> -30c with windchill
[07:42] <nixternal> -20c regular
[07:42] <jussi01> yeah, its -30C regular here...
[07:42]  * jussi01 shivers
[07:42] <nixternal> -3f give or take a degree
[07:42] <nixternal> yeah, we haven't gotten super cold this season luckily
[07:43] <nixternal> who knows, maybe that internet inventor is right
[07:43]  * Flannel stretches.
[07:43] <Flannel> It's 45 here right now in the middle of the night
[07:43] <jussi01> one fine day, in the middle of the night...
[07:43] <Flannel> Today it was 70ish
[07:43] <jussi01> 2 dead men got up to fight...
[07:44] <jussi01> back to back, they faced each other...
[07:44] <jussi01> drew thier swords and shot eachother..
[07:44] <jussi01> sorry, your "middle of the night" reminded me of that
[07:45] <Tm_T> hi kids
[07:46] <Tm_T> nice, again someone comes here and says "no you don't do your job properly, let me tell you how it should be done" (:)
[07:48] <topyli> i wish he'd told us, but he didn't. we still don't know! :)
[07:49] <Tm_T> topyli: but he told he knows how how it should done, that's what matters (;)
[08:00]  * jussi01 sighs... scrollback was fun
[08:00] <jussi01> ikonia: ping
[08:40] <ikonia> hello yes
[08:40] <jussi01> ikonia: PM?
[08:40] <ikonia> but of course
[08:45] <mneptok> topyli : ikonia : Flannel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4yHyHdJK5g <-- enjoy
[08:48] <topyli> \m/
[08:55] <ikonia> with the utmost respect a known "issue user" telling me about gossip of another known issue user carries little weight for me, if there is a situation where I've been to harsh I'm happy to look at it, but with those two users alone - I know I've not
[08:56] <ikonia> this is the 3rd / 4th time sebsebseb has made this sort of wild accusation about me and others, and I'm getting tired of it, I'm going to ask him to join #ubuntu-ops when he's next active to resolve this
[09:03] <mneptok> ikonia: the process is made clear in the !appeals factoid, i personally see no reason to cloud the issue by circumventing policy and asking him to discuss it here.
[09:03] <mneptok> one man's opinion.
[09:03] <ikonia> that's fine - I'm not asking him to appeal
[09:04] <ikonia> I want to know why he's joining channels and making these accusations to people, as I said this is the 3rd/4th times and I've spoke to him about it once in private and he agreed to stop and he was wrong - clearly he has some other agenda here
[09:05] <jussi01> ikonia: its simple trolling. thats all
[09:05] <Flannel> Or he's just bitter, or mnaines has the agenda and is overstating seb3's stance/etc
[09:05] <jussi01> Just one other thing, for all of you who are regular helpers in #u, are you using #ubuntu-meta?
[09:05] <Flannel> jussi01: I am!
[09:05] <ikonia> Flannel: mnaines has been a problem in the past and couldn't follow the rules, sebsebseb is a persistnat problem, neither hold much water for me at this time, that said, I KNOW sebsebseb does this and I'm quite tired o it
[09:06]  * mneptok is not
[09:06] <mneptok> ikonia: so ignore it blissfully.
[09:06] <jussi01> Id like to ask for those helpers who are using it, please blog about it, and tell other helpers it exists, as its very useful and can hhelp improve our levels of support
[09:06] <Flannel> If I had a blog, I'd blog about it.
[09:07] <Flannel> But I'd blog about pastebin first
[09:07] <Flannel> No offense :)
[09:07] <Flannel> Ooh, that seems to be settled?
[09:08] <jussi01> Flannel: ?
[09:09] <jussi01> Flannel: the openid issue?
[09:09] <Flannel> http://paste.ubuntu.com/ isn't asking for OpenID
[09:09] <Flannel> yeah
[09:09] <jussi01> yeah sorted a few days back
[09:09] <Flannel> Ah.  I've been busy this week
[09:10] <tsimpson> Flannel: if you try the "Download as text" link, it will
[09:11] <Flannel> tsimpson: Really?  That seems asinine.
[09:12] <tsimpson> yep, so now it's only half broken
[09:12] <Flannel> That's to cut down on bots? or what?
[09:12] <tsimpson> no idea
[09:13] <sebsebseb> ikonia: hi
[09:14] <ikonia> sebsebseb: thank you for joining, I'd just like to log formally in this channel my comments and you're responses. I'd like to note for the record that I have found out earlier from today that you have been making slanderous remarks about myself and other operators and #ubuntu channels in general, I've asked you to stop this and you agreed to do this. I've found out again today that you have been doing the same thing,
[09:14] <ikonia> I'd first like to ask why you did this ? do you have a problem, a complaint, and issue, or something we can genuinly resolve ?
[09:15] <ikonia> accusations have been made and I'd like clarification
[09:16] <sebsebseb> I went to club ubuntu
[09:17] <sebsebseb> got into a pm with someone
[09:17] <ikonia> step back
[09:18] <ikonia> "why" did you get into a pm with someone about this
[09:18] <sebsebseb> it wasn't about that, just one thing lead to another
[09:18] <ikonia> actually - apologies, I should let you finish
[09:20] <sebsebseb> since I touch type I can easily type in stuff without properly thinking.
[09:21] <sebsebseb> they wanted to finnish off a convo in pm
[09:23] <sebsebseb> we talked about a few things
[09:24] <ikonia> ok - so how did you come to the situation of telling the user that 3 ops abuse their privileges ?
[09:24] <sebsebseb> I didn't say that
[09:25] <ikonia> ok - would you like to make clear your statement in here, as this user has made accusations and part of them he has said where from you,
[09:25] <ikonia> that's the reasons I'm asking you to speak in here to get on record if there are any problems (we can address and fix them if there are)
[09:26] <sebsebseb> the other person
[09:27] <sebsebseb> was probably a troll
[09:27] <ikonia> sebsebseb: with respect, you have had that badge in the past, hence why I'm asking you to clarify
[09:27] <ikonia> it is quite plausable you said these things as I have caught you saying them before,
[09:28] <ikonia> that is why I'm asking you to clarify what the issue is with the #ubuntu channels or #ubuntu operators
[09:29] <sebsebseb> I am the type of person that can easilly remember a lot of negative stuff from the past, that has happended.  maybe it's, because I have some Aspergers Syndrome
[09:29] <ikonia> sebsebseb: that excuse is not acceptable any more
[09:30] <ikonia> sebsebseb: I am asking you to clarify what your complaint is
[09:30] <ikonia> if there is a complaint - we can work on fixing and resolving it, but I need a clear explaination of what that complaint is
[09:31] <ikonia> based on the person you where talking to, you had a lot of complaints and issues with the channels and operators, so if they exist, tell us and we'll try to resolve them
[09:31] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu channels  are ok really at the moment,  except for off topic I suppouse.  well  take last night for example
[09:31] <ikonia> I'm sorry if I'm being blunt - I'm just tring to be %101 clear
[09:31] <ikonia> sebsebseb: enlighten us the problem with #ubuntu-offtopic
[09:32] <sebsebseb> I joined and got LJL and RWW being stupid,  something very similar happended about two months ago, but I ignored it.
[09:32] <sebsebseb> I joined and it started straight away last night
[09:32] <ikonia> I agree people can be stupid in there, and I'm not a fan of it personally and try to stop it myself, that said, it's not agaist the rules to be stupid
[09:33] <ikonia> and I agree situations I saw last night where also stupid
[09:33] <sebsebseb> well  they were trying to wind me up
[09:33] <sebsebseb> really
[09:33] <ikonia> ahh, I didn't see that
[09:33] <sebsebseb> get a reaction,  at first I wasn't messaging at all
[09:33] <ikonia> what do you mean by messaging - talking in the channel ?
[09:33] <sebsebseb> ,but they put stuff untill  I did.  well those two  seem to not like me,  which was made clear actsaully last time in pm to me, when something similar happended.
[09:34] <sebsebseb> yes in the channel it happended
[09:34] <ikonia> sebsebseb: but you where not talking to anyone in pm at the time ?
[09:34] <ikonia> and you where not talking in the channel either ?
[09:35] <ikonia> (again just trying to be clear)
[09:35] <sebsebseb> saying  stuff to wind me  up bully me, annoy me, whatever the reason.  to do with  my bot useage in #ubuntu  that I did a lot of last year.  the first time that happended.  I pm'd them about it, and asked,  and it was made clear to me in pm that they didn't exactly like me.
[09:35] <sebsebseb> that
[09:35] <sebsebseb> is why
[09:35] <sebsebseb> those two
[09:36] <sebsebseb> why I don't feel that welcome in off topic, hence giving club ubuntu a try again,  every now and again
[09:36] <ikonia> ok, well, first of all, I'll look at the logs last night to check that, I assure you. Second that complaint you've just made is nothing to do with the rules in the ubuntu channels or the operators, which is what the person you where talking to last night said you had a problem with
[09:36] <ikonia> sebsebseb: don't forget if you are not happy with someones behaviour you can always join here and report it, or call the !ops trigger if you need it urgently
[09:37] <sebsebseb> yeah I started saying in pm,  similar stuff that I have said before to people in pm
[09:37] <ikonia> could you clarify what that is
[09:37] <ikonia> please
[09:37] <sebsebseb> with an idea that I am not actsaully liked by  some of the Ubuntu ops  including yourself and Flannel
[09:37] <ikonia> (rough overview - doesn't need to be word for word)
[09:38] <ikonia> ok, this is making more sense
[09:38] <ikonia> that ties in what he was saying, although he was making more serious complaints in your name
[09:39] <topyli> looking at -ot logs from yesterday, i see a couple of humorous comments about sebsebseb's silence after joining, and how much you were supposedly missed. nothing unusual for -ot.
[09:39] <Tm_T> sebsebseb: and fyi I have hint of AS too, with other things (:
[09:39] <ikonia> sebsebseb: if you feel people don't like you, I understand that's not nice, part of the problem is you have a resputation as being a problem user based on your long history,
[09:39] <ikonia> people will monitor you more close due to your history (and events like there where you cause other people to becoming involved in your personal perceptions)
[09:40] <sebsebseb> topyli: last time it was a bit like that as well, but RWW made it clear in pm that he didn't like me,  maybe LJL as well
[09:40] <ikonia> sebsebseb: they are not obliged to like you
[09:40] <sebsebseb> that particualr guy by the way said to watch out for topyli
[09:40] <sebsebseb> and that ikona and flannel are like brothers
[09:40] <sebsebseb> I asked what he meant by like brothers, but never got a reply
[09:40] <sebsebseb> to that
[09:40] <ikonia> as long as they are not causing you any discrimination or abusive behaviour, just ignore them
[09:41] <sebsebseb> guy as in the one  from tonight
[09:41] <ikonia> yup, I understand
[09:41] <ikonia> so if I may paraphrase, your complaint is (and it's not really a complaint) is that you feel like a few operators and channel members don't like you very much
[09:41] <sebsebseb> after something I had put, he was taking a while to reply,  and I got the impression that it might be, because he had joined here, and was trying to cause trouble
[09:42] <sebsebseb> that person made it clear enough in pm to me, that he wanted to cause some trouble
[09:42] <ikonia> well - lets not worry about him any futher and try to rsolve your issue
[09:42] <sebsebseb> and ideally have other people complaining about ops, so they can get together, and  complain together. witnesses etc
[09:43] <ikonia> if there is something to complain about, thats fine, we can look at it, mistakes and bad judmgent can happen, if there are logs/examples more the better
[09:43] <ikonia> don't shy away from a genuine complaint
[09:43] <jussi01> !away > jasonjang
[09:44] <ikonia> sebsebseb: bottom line is a.) you do have a history so people will monitor you more close than others until they have confidence in your behaiviour (bad mouthing to other people doesn't help)
[09:45] <ikonia> sebsebseb: b.) people don't have to like you, based on some of your earlier behaviour it may take a while for people to forget and put it past you, but as long as they are not abusing you, or being rude etc you're just going to have to ignore it until they have faith in you (as with point a) if there are any problems that you feel overstep the line, contact the operators in here
[09:45] <ikonia> I do understand how that can feel alienating though (both point a and b) but that's part of growing up - excepting the consiquence of your earlier behaviour, I promise it will go away if you can keep your head
[09:46] <sebsebseb> my earlier before, swearing in the channel?   and what else?
[09:46] <sebsebseb> behaviour
[09:46] <sebsebseb> not before, don't like when I type wrong word
[09:46] <ikonia> sebsebseb: you've got a long history of questionable behaviour in #ubuntu
[09:47] <ikonia> do you really want to go all through it again ?
[09:47] <sebsebseb> no I guess not
[09:47] <ikonia> you know your behaviour has not been good in the past, so I'm guessing you feel this way as people remember it, it will go though
[09:48] <ikonia> complaining to people randomly as you have done now on multiple occasions won't help, more so if they have their own personal agendas
[09:48] <ikonia> that said - having a genuine issue or complaint will always be addressed in here
[09:48] <sebsebseb> yeah that second part,  I think I learnt that now for sure
[09:48] <ikonia> so don't feel you can't say something to anyone
[09:48] <ikonia> if you're not comfortable with myself or Flannel then talk to one of the other operator there are plenty in here
[09:48] <ikonia> no-one will refuse a pm from you if you feel it's personal
[09:50] <ikonia> sebsebseb: thank you for coming and clarifying your comments, I felt it important to get them on record based on the accusations the other user was making
[09:51] <sebsebseb> when I started helping a lot in #ubuntu  it had been after a few bad months,  on the verge of depression.   and I wasn't that good in the channel to begin with,  swearing abrivations for example yeah. and that kind of stuff didn't help my reputation which I remember you saying at the time
[09:51] <ikonia> ok - so in my mind your reputation is going, (or was) but it keeps popping up with issues like this
[09:52] <ikonia> stick with it and it will go,
[09:52] <sebsebseb> some of my support wasn't that great in #ubuntu really I guess,  but I tried.  and well I helped a lot of people last year in there as well.   Then the whole using the bot maybe a little bit to much,  and being dictated to sometimes about how to use the bot,  which annoyed me quite a lot at the time.
[09:52] <ikonia> I fully understand that
[09:54] <sebsebseb> well
[09:54] <sebsebseb> I don't know if you people know
[09:54] <sebsebseb> ,but
[09:54] <sebsebseb> I guess some of you do
[09:54] <sebsebseb> they are working on a proper  Ubuntu Manual for beginners who have come from Windows and Mac OS X
[09:54] <ikonia> I'm aware of some of that
[09:55] <sebsebseb> that isn't offical yet, but they will be trying to get it to become offical. and part of the ISO even.   nice little channel that one as well etc.   anyway hopefuly that becomes a success,  means I would help much less in #ubuntu as well.  since  I was mainly doing basics anyway
[09:56] <ikonia> sebsebseb: there is no problem with you helping in #ubuntu at all
[09:57] <ikonia> don't feel that way, you're more than welcome,
[09:57] <sebsebseb> oh you have noticed I haven't been helping their that much recently?
[09:58] <ikonia> not really no
[09:59] <sebsebseb> well  I have done weeks where I haven't gone in there at all recently.  Since I got other things I want to do.
[09:59] <sebsebseb> and not that keen on Karmic anyway
[09:59] <sebsebseb> hence why I put Mandriva on this computer
[10:00] <sebsebseb> anyway I guess we are done really in here now, unless there's something else?
[10:00] <jussi01> sebsebseb: thanks for coming in and explaining, its helpful :)
[10:01] <sebsebseb> I am not so sure about Lucid for my own computer useage,  but with the manual being properly advertised and all that,  I think there's a chance of it maybe gaining some market share, that is a bit more proper.
[10:01] <sebsebseb> anyway ok
[10:01] <sebsebseb> bye
[10:03] <elky> sebsebseb, you're still in the channel
[10:05] <ikonia> sorry, my phone went
[10:28] <elky> i'm wondering, did I go to sleep and i'm dreaming up fictional encounters for lulz again?
[10:28] <ikonia> no
[10:29] <elky> darn
[10:58] <ikonia> hello Jordan_U
[10:59] <Jordan_U> ikonia: Hi
[11:00] <ikonia> Jordan_U: how can we help today ?
[11:01] <Jordan_U> ikonia: "02:54 < Jordan_U> !google | quintin_ isolat3dsh33p"
[11:01] <ikonia> Jordan_U: if you're talking about quintin_ I'm watching him and trying to engage him in a pm
[11:01] <Jordan_U> ikonia: Yes
[11:01] <Jordan_U> Thank you
[13:33] <persia> If someone is cool, and wants to knock a spammer, files2{2,u}@92.1.247.78 could use some investigation :)
[13:33] <persia> cf. #ubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-motu
[13:33] <bazhang> hitting many more channels as well
[13:34] <persia> I thought so.  Aren't there ways to make that not happen?
[13:36] <Pici> I'll bug freenode
[13:36] <Pici> or bazhang will
[13:36] <bazhang> just told them persia Pici
[13:37] <bazhang> whoops :)
[13:37] <Pici> :)
[13:37] <persia> Thanks :)
[13:47] <jrib> bunch of clones just joined #ubuntu
[13:47] <jrib> and there they go
[13:47] <bazhang> heh
[13:49] <bazhang> kottizen ?
[13:50] <jpds> Yeah, they're having fun.
[13:50] <bazhang> so that was spoofing the actual user kottizen then
[15:22]  * MenZa waves to christel.
[15:24] <christel> heya MenZa :)
[16:04] <Myrtti> #ubuntu-geeks?
[16:05] <Myrtti> aj
[16:05] <Pici> aj?
[16:05] <Myrtti> ah.
[16:07] <ikonia> ????
[16:07] <bazhang> baribal recommended it to suman
[16:07] <Myrtti> yeah, a joke
[16:29] <Pici> !-cn
[16:31] <bazhang> ha
[16:31]  * Pici sighs
[16:36] <Myrtti> Pici: did you get it sorted?
[16:36] <Pici> Myrtti: Yeah, I'm talking to him in pm
[16:37] <Myrtti> thought so
[17:12] <jpds> 17:11:25 < ~ttbabie> hi room 18 female here but iam bi
[17:12] <jpds> -devel
[17:13] <jussi01> and they quit
[18:38] <genii> Hm. "405 #ubuntu-ca You can't join that many channels"
[18:41] <jpds> Well, 405 channels does sound excessive.
[18:42] <genii> I only have ~20 going
[18:43] <jpds> 20 is the limit on Freenode...
[18:43] <topyli> genii, ubuntu-offtopic counts as 490
[18:44] <topyli> err, 390
[18:45] <Pici> genii: You can ask for an extension in #freenode
[18:46]  * Pici doesnt know how he was only in 20 channels before he got +u
[19:01] <jussi01> Pici: I have same feeling
[19:01] <genii> Pici: Thanks.
[19:05] <genii> If it gets extended how do I know? Chanserv msg?
[19:06] <Pici> You should see something about being granted +u
[19:06] <genii> OK
[19:09] <genii> Looks like no ones awake in there
[19:10] <Pici> @login
[19:16] <Pici> !eol
[19:21] <genii> Yay, +u
[19:22] <Pici> yay
[19:23] <Tm_T> genii: hadn't before?
[19:26] <genii> Tm_T: Nah. Was usually in 15-18 but added recently #ubuntu-eeepc and #libbluray where I started to hit the wall
[19:26] <Tm_T> ah
[19:38] <Myrtti> should he be muted?
[19:39] <genii> Hm... niko is asking me to /msg nickserv set accountname genii        .. is this to set my primary name to that? (I think my primary is actually genii-around)
[19:40] <Pici> Is there a problem for you?
[19:41] <genii> Pici: No, njan set me +u already and it works. Just wondering what the niko thing is about
[19:41] <Pici> niko is in this channel, you know
[19:41] <niko> genii: that's only to have your accountname match your cloak, nothing else :)
[19:42] <Pici> Which njan should have checked, but /shrug
[19:42] <Pici> niko: The channel access lists will update themselves with the new account, right?
[19:42] <genii> niko: OK, I'll do it
[19:42] <niko> offcourse
[20:48] <Myrtti> !away > Claudiu__
[23:11] <erUSUL> !esd
[23:12] <erUSUL> !no, esd is <reply>esd is the enlightened sound deamon. It's deprecated, use !pulseaudio instead
[23:16] <elky> see, you don't need to come here specifically
[23:16] <erUSUL> i know
[23:17] <erUSUL> most edit request get lost through the cracks this days. maybe comming here raises the chances of this being acepted
[23:18] <erUSUL> but anyway; i'm off if my pressence bothers you
[23:18] <erUSUL> bye
[23:26] <nhandler> @login
[23:27] <nhandler> !no esd is <reply>esd is the enlightened sound daemon. It is deprecated, use !pulseaudio instead.
[23:28] <coolkehon> hi
[23:28] <coolkehon> i need the shellium vhost unbaned from #ubuntu plz
[23:29] <coolkehon> !op
[23:29] <jrib> coolkehon: please don't do that
[23:29] <coolkehon> ok
[23:29] <jrib> coolkehon: I'm checking
[23:29] <coolkehon> ok
[23:29] <coolkehon> sorry
[23:31] <jrib> coolkehon: can you explain comments by Melvinov here http://paste.ubuntu.com/353684/
[23:31] <coolkehon> one sec
[23:34] <coolkehon> gimme a sec pls
[23:34] <jrib> coolkehon: sure
[23:36] <coolkehon> was waiting for an admin of shellium.org to review
[23:36] <coolkehon> *still waiting
[23:36] <coolkehon> jrib, i can't speak for that one guy but it looks like he abused the vhost
[23:37] <coolkehon> i think somewhere in the rules on shellium.org that you can't get banned anything like that because it hurts the other users
[23:38] <mneptok> i see nothing about terms of use or rules on the shellium site.
[23:38] <coolkehon> did you check the wiki
[23:38] <coolkehon> rules are there
[23:38] <coolkehon> well more rules
[23:39] <Floops> Evening
[23:39] <Floops> Sorry hands was full trying to finish up something
[23:39] <nalioth> hi Floops
[23:39] <Floops> where they more than one case of person behaving bad with our system
[23:39] <mneptok> i see no terms of use on the wiki, either.
[23:40] <Floops> that no one can login from our ips
[23:40] <Floops> to ubuntu channel
[23:40] <coolkehon> hi Floops
[23:40] <jrib> Floops: Melvinov's actions here http://paste.ubuntu.com/353684/ .  That's the only case I know of
[23:40] <Floops> i see this
[23:40] <mneptok> @login
[23:40] <Floops> reason why i asm asking
[23:41] <Floops> if this is a once case senerio
[23:41] <Floops> why no one is allow to get in now
[23:41] <Floops> from the ban put on @shellium.org
[23:41] <mneptok> jrib: there are quite a few examples of banned Shellium users, actually.
[23:42] <nalioth> Floops: it's not a "once case scenario". :(  unfortuantely, shellium is used quite a bit for abuse
[23:42] <Floops> aye
[23:42] <Floops> soo why is it not being report
[23:42] <Floops> to admin who manager the shellium here
[23:42] <Floops> i seen if freenode staffer have issue
[23:42] <Floops> they reported
[23:42] <Floops>  it
[23:42] <mneptok> it's not our job to monitor your users for you.
[23:42] <Floops> it not monitor our using
[23:42] <Floops> if u have issue with them
[23:43] <Floops> or i hav eissue with some
[23:43] <Floops> i ask a question
[23:43] <Floops> is that monitroting
[23:43] <Floops> montorint
[23:43] <mneptok> it's our job to make sure the Ubuntu IRC channels are useful and operate well. thus far, they seem to be better without Shellium users than with
[23:43] <nalioth> Floops: again, due to the open nature of your service, it's easier to just ban it totally.  Yes, single user's accounts are removed, but more are created and the abuse continues  :(
[23:43] <elky> Floops, is there a defined process that we would follow. a web form, an email address, etc?
[23:44] <Floops> yes
[23:44] <Floops> if i see issue
[23:44] <Floops> i would report to admin@shellium.org
[23:44] <Floops> but i guessing this is set in its way
[23:44] <Floops> which is totally understandable
[23:44] <Floops> for abuse
[23:44] <Floops> and we do handle abuse with removal of account
[23:44] <Floops> thanks for your help
[23:45] <mneptok> Floops: require a US$10 one-time payment for access to IRC clients or BNC. create terms of use that are clear about what you will tolerate and what you will not. and ban users from your system found to be breaking those rules. it's far less likely for people to abuse systems they have paid for.
[23:45] <mneptok> ugh
[23:46]  * nalioth shrugs
[23:46] <elky> it's probably worth considering a trial of process one weekend when someone is guaranteed able to sit and play whack-a-mole to demonstrate the point to him
[23:47] <mneptok> elky: if i were him i'd block access to the IRC clients except to a chosen few during that time, and make you eat your words.
[23:48] <elky> mneptok, i doubt he'd be able to keep that up for long ;)
[23:48] <coolkehon> uhh not to interfere or anything since it isn't my site... but not all users use it to do bad things and they do ban a lot of people for doing stuff (stupid stuff sometimes too).
[23:48] <coolkehon> it's like with hackers
[23:48] <coolkehon> not every hacker is bad
[23:48] <coolkehon> there are just a lot of hackers and some of them do bad things
[23:49] <coolkehon> so those are the only ones you'll ever notice really
[23:49] <elky> coolkehon, it's a noise:signal ratio we base it on. where the noise is the bad guys and signal the not bad guys. there's more bad guys than good guys on shellium :(
[23:49] <Floops> by the way
[23:49] <coolkehon> i use ubuntu
[23:49] <Floops> i didn't mean to sounds rude
[23:49] <Floops> just wanted to say that
[23:49] <Floops> just incase i came off that way
[23:50] <coolkehon> elky, then why not ban the individual by nick and ident and only allow registered users to speak in the channel ?
[23:50] <mneptok> Floops: you're like Miss Manners when compared to most of your users. ;)
[23:50] <mneptok> coolkehon: because most Ubuntu users are not registered Freenode users.
[23:51] <coolkehon> good point
[23:51] <mneptok> coolkehon: we're not going to make #ubuntu a substandard resource just because one free shell provider would benefit from it.
[23:51] <coolkehon> ok
[23:51] <coolkehon> hmm i'll try to think of a way to solve it
[23:51] <mneptok> coolkehon: get another shell host?
[23:52] <mneptok> coolkehon: or just run an IRC client locally?
[23:52] <coolkehon> mneptok, i know some people and i think its best i keep my ip from them ;)
[23:52] <coolkehon> also i have another shell
[23:52] <mneptok> !cloak
[23:52] <jrib> !cloak | coolkehon
[23:53] <coolkehon> its not just me
[23:53] <coolkehon> yeah i know
[23:53] <coolkehon> i have a cloak also
[23:53] <mneptok> then there you go.
[23:53] <coolkehon> i use mine instead of shelliums
[23:54] <mneptok> "he who lies down with dogs gets up with fleas," grasshopper.
[23:54] <mneptok> ;)
[23:54] <coolkehon> i pounce with the lions
[23:54] <elky> coolkehon, against the brick wall that is our proxy policy.
[23:55] <coolkehon> so there is no way you can just ban users ident and username and then send an email to the admin@shellium.org
[23:55]  * coolkehon is trying to find a middle ground kind of fix
[23:56] <mneptok> coolkehon: add an extra hour to every Ubuntu ops' day and we'll consider it.
[23:56] <coolkehon> shellium users aren't disturbing #ubuntu that often are they
[23:58] <mneptok> almost a ban per month last year
[23:59] <coolkehon> one ban per month really doesn't seem that much... then again i don't usually admin irc's especially those as large as #ubuntu