[10:20] <Equiet> Does UX or UI team exist?
[10:21] <thorwil> Equiet: you mean as open/community team? no
[10:22] <Equiet> There should be one.
[10:23] <thorwil> Equiet: there has been some talk about the idea that the artwork team should rather be a design team. or that there should be place for UI concepts, at least
[10:24] <thorwil> Equiet: but i've seen so many UI concepts/mockups ... never leading to any result
[10:25] <thorwil> Equiet: very few people have what it takes to create a solid design. than you always run into lots of technical issues and nothing ever can happen without a competent developer doing it
[10:27] <thorwil> Equiet: last time mat_t said that he would like to see such concepts, i told him all that, plus that canonical would have to provide guidance and see to get good concepts implemented. this was met with silence
[10:27] <Equiet> I know. Developers don't join to artwork groups, but maybe they would join to UI group...
[10:32] <thorwil> Equiet: the solution i would favor is the creation of a flash-like development tool to be used for semi-functional mockups as well as final applications
[10:32] <thorwil> Equiet: something that would lower the barrier to entry drastically, allowing designers to become UI developers
[10:33] <thorwil> combined with strong separation of backend/frontend
[10:34] <Equiet> thorwil: For Flash, do you also mean clickable elements?
[10:34] <thorwil> Equiet: of course
[10:35] <thorwil> Equiet: a point-and-click interface builder with strong animation capabilities combined with a scripting language
[10:36] <thorwil> Equiet: ideally the results would be usable as web or desktop app by default
[10:37] <thorwil> but i don't see anyone ready to take on such an ambitious project
[10:38] <thorwil> just look at the fact that there have been tools like flash and director since many years ... with no floss competition to speak of at all
[10:38] <Equiet> I am web developer, clickable elements and simple animations are quite easy with jQuery.
[10:39] <Equiet> But nothing more.
[10:47] <darkmatter> I actually draw a lot of inspiration from web design.
[10:55] <Equiet> What to do to make a new team?
[11:04] <thorwil> Equiet: you seriously want to do that? please, don't waste your and other people's time.
[11:04] <thorwil> Equiet: but if i can't convince you, try to talk about with kwwii, who's in the game much longer and deeper
[11:11] <thorwil> lunch time
[11:18] <darkmatter> there are plenty of competent designers AND devs, and some that are bit of each. the problem is they tend to lack communication skills/mutual respect. an even bigger issue is that neither camp understands that development is not sequential (at least not proper development), but is parallel. it's called a lack of experience last time I checked
[11:47] <darkmatter> greater separation between the backend and gui is impractical for several reasons. the most obvious being designers can't fix backend issues and devs can't fix design issues. very basic example. a dev does something stupid that ends up requiring user interaction for a feature that should be automatic, because the dev thinks it's important to get the user to click something, or simply because of a lack of intelligent programming. the u
[11:48] <darkmatter> separating the process, and thus increasing the sequential 'skew' if you will only compounds the issue. you either work together as a whole or you may as well give up
[11:50] <darkmatter> we have other items of contention as well, like the annoying habit of slapping in yet another feature. which is wrong from both a programming and design perspective
[11:52] <darkmatter> you either replace an existing feature with a new one that accomplishes things in a better (even if different) manner, or you simply extend the existing feature. it's called conservation, and it has the wonderful sideffect of avoiding unnecessary bloat in both code and ui
[11:54] <thorwil> darkmatter: one point of frontend/backend separation would be too keep the interaction out of the heavy lifting. have the hard to develop bits in a library. add a layer of glue. allow the designer to change at least some aspects of the gui by himself, without having to dive into C(#/++)
[12:02] <darkmatter> thorwil: that much I can agree with, but it shouldn't be so much a matter of a higher degree of separation as smarter tools in general (I'm including libraries in my definition of tools btw). simplify callbacks, etc. extend language support in the toolkits. I've long supported the idea of highly specialized css, xml and html gui-level libraries (among more advanced ideas)
[12:02] <darkmatter> improve the building blocks in general
[12:05] <darkmatter> structural complexity. which is one of the reasons you don't really see it anywhere. it exists to an extend in win and mac, but it seems to be a foreign concept in our culture
[12:10] <darkmatter> but regardless of how you do things, it requires a great deal of compromise and cooperation on both fronts. which is why I always argue that code-level development and design are not separate entities
[12:37] <thorwil> now that's some rather unusual identity design: http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/follow-up_uefa_euro2012.php
[12:40] <darkmatter> thorwil: I actually like it (the fact I'm a slav is not withstanding :P). even before I saw the 'poland-ukraine' part I knew exactly where it was :P
[12:41] <darkmatter> it conveys the host and the sport quite adequately. plus its a lovely composition
[12:42] <thorwil> darkmatter: i couldn't make that connection, but this is full of really great craftsmanship, distinct and consequent
[12:42] <darkmatter> aye
[12:45] <darkmatter> thorwil: I made the connection mainly because I'm from an artistic family, so the cultural motifs have always been present in my life.
[13:00] <thorwil> can it be inkscape loading time is influenced by number of installed fonts?
[13:02] <darkmatter> thorwil: perhaps. I know gimps is
[13:03] <thorwil> sucks
[13:04] <vish> wow... unity,rivalry,passion designs are awesome...
[13:04] <darkmatter> yup
[13:04] <vish> thorwil: there is a bug in inkscape regarding that for a long time... :/
[13:05] <vish> Bug #196822
[13:24]  * darkmatter smacks vish upside the head with a pencil sketch of Sojourn
[13:28] <Equiet> And what about creating only wiki page for posting UI concepts? Developers could later inspire from there...
[13:31] <thorwil> Equiet: the problem is that they don't
[13:32]  * Equiet is very sad about this.
[13:33] <thorwil> Equiet: what does work is when a designer approaches a project or even better a single developer and first discusses if there is a room for cooperation. that is seeing if there is a problem space both parties agree on. the scope of what can be implemented has to be discussed
[13:34] <thorwil> Equiet: the other way could work as well: a project describes a problem or desired functionality and invites designers to get in contact
[13:35] <Equiet> Maybe we should spam other's mailing lists. :)
[13:36] <thorwil> yeah, more hot air is what moves free software forward ;)
[13:37] <vish> Equiet: we need to remember that there is now a design *team* in place... so unless there a call for mockups from them  , we cant change much in Ubuntu itself ;)
[13:38] <vish> Equiet: also , there is the ayatana mailing list , where you can propose your designs
[13:38] <darkmatter> http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8469/screenshotlp.png <-- fixed my clock :O
[13:38] <thorwil> the ayatana list seems to be all about notifications, though
[13:39] <vish> yeah.. mostly now there has been rants about it ;)
[13:44] <jaapz> Hey all!
[13:44] <jaapz> Im starting a new project, called t00mblr, which is a tumblr.com client
[13:45] <jaapz> And i thought maybe someone here would like to make me a logo for that project? :D
[13:48] <jaapz> well, if youre in for it, mail me at jaapz.b [at] gmail [dot] com
[13:48] <jaapz> Or just say it now :P
[13:48] <Equiet> jaapz: Tell us a little bit more. Explain features...
[13:48] <jaapz> Well do you know tumblr.com
[13:48] <jaapz> Its a microblogging service
[13:48] <jaapz> But has some more features than twitte
[13:48] <Equiet> I know.
[13:49] <jaapz> All features tumblr.com has will my client also have eventually :P
[13:49] <Equiet> In what language are you going to write it?
[13:49] <jaapz> Python
[13:49] <jaapz> Its sort of a learning project to me also
[13:50] <jaapz> I know some python, but by making this app i want to learn some more :P
[13:50] <jaapz> I know there is a tumblr client for linux out there, but i just dont like that program
[13:51] <darkmatter> hmmm... Python is ok. at the vary least the mandatory indenting will teach you proper formatting ;P
[13:51] <darkmatter> very*
[13:51] <jaapz> :P
[13:51] <jaapz> But if anyone here wants to make a logo, i'd love that :D
[13:54] <thorwil> jaapz: hi! just in case _if_ no one here bites, you could try the tango project mailing list or perhaps the ubuntu-art list. the lists generally mean more people will see your message
[13:55] <jaapz> thorwil, i never used mailinglists before but i'll check that out :D thanks!
[14:01] <vish> jaapz: Also , the ubuntu-art mailing list.... there is an artwork request wiki page in gnome...
[14:02] <vish> jaapz: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/ArtRequests/ , anyone can request there
[14:03] <jaapz> vish, thanks! im going to use that :D
[14:03] <vish> np
[14:04] <vish> thorwil: why dont we have a request page for Ubuntu as well... [although it might be used less...]
[14:05] <thorwil> vish: because nobody created one
[14:05] <jaapz> xD
[14:05] <vish> ah... ;)
[14:06] <thorwil> vish: when we had discussions about our mission statement, working on such requests wasn't included. i was actually the only one to mention it
[14:06] <thorwil> vish: pretty much everyone else was all about wallpapers and themes
[14:07] <vish> thorwil: but since Ubuntu has a lot more users and more out reach.. we can have one and I'm pretty sure it will be watched more
[14:07] <thorwil> vish: finally, for a while it looked like i was the only one to take on such jobs on the list
[14:07] <vish> thorwil: hm... ok.. I'll set one up.. in the same format as the gnome one... is that ok?
[14:07] <thorwil> with the notable exception of troy creating a logo for ubuntu-women
[14:08] <thorwil> vish: you have my blessing, but please bring it up on the list, first
[14:09] <vish> ah.. sure
[14:09] <thorwil> vish: Ken might have something to say and maybe somone else has some considerations to add
[14:09] <jaapz> live.gnome.org is freaking slow
[14:09] <vish> kwwii: ^ ?
[15:03] <Equiet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/BootExperienceProject
[15:03] <Equiet> In Work Item Summary, Design team means Ubuntu Artwork Team?
[15:22] <vish> Equiet: nope... design team == canonical design team
[15:23] <vish> Equiet: https://launchpad.net/~canonical-ux
[15:28] <vish> thorwil: Dani has been busy on the gnome-shell ML ;)
[15:29] <vish> maybe he is done with breathe for now ...
[15:36] <thorwil> vish: i guess without ckontros, not much will happen with breathe
[15:36] <vish> yeah... sad though...
[15:46] <vish> darkmatter: around?
[15:47] <vish> or thorwil the button used in the natilus main toolbar is the 22px button or the 24px?
[15:47] <vish>  22px icon*
[15:47] <thorwil> vish: no idea
[15:47] <vish> hmm...
[15:48] <thorwil> in case of tango, shouldn't that be 22, never 24?
[15:49] <vish> thorwil: yeah.. but i wanted to fix the computer icon in humanity.. it is bigger than the Home icon on the toolbar and t looks awkward :/
[16:23] <thorwil> vish: so i added a first proposal (2 versions) to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
[16:26] <Equiet> Wow. http://student.science.uva.nl/~sqdh/gs-mockup/
[16:28] <vish> thorwil: hmm... i'm not very sure i like the lynx being so prominent
[16:29] <vish> thorwil: do you have the lynx svg?
[16:30] <thorwil> vish: yes. the whole idea of using a lynx is questionable. but i will not risk having my design shot down for a lack of lynx ;)
[16:30] <vish> hehe ;)
[16:31] <Equiet> If somebody would like to make an interactive UI concept, I can code somthing like this: http://student.science.uva.nl/~sqdh/gs-mockup/ .
[16:31] <Equiet> Sry, wrong link. http://student.science.uva.nl/~sqdh/gs-mockup/2/
[16:31] <vish> Equiet: why is the button on the top left and the menu shown on the right ;)
[16:31] <thorwil> vish: pictures tend to attract the eye. nothing catches attention like depictions of eyes. so there is hardly a chance of avoiding a fight between a lynx picture and the title
[16:32] <thorwil> vish: so i placed what catches the attention anyway first, close as posible to the title and neatly aligned. minimizing conflict
[16:32] <Equiet> vish: What button?
[16:32] <vish> thorwil: yeah... but the issue is the lynx is only for this version then the next version the next animal.. so making the animal very prominent is a hazard
[16:32] <thorwil> vish: i also have to admit that this lynx predates the cover design
[16:32] <vish> Equiet: the "activities"
[16:33] <thorwil> vish: not at all. new version, new cover
[16:33] <Equiet> I don't know, but it looks good.
[16:34] <vish> Equiet: if i press a button on the left is would expect the menu to be shown closer to my selection.. not the other side right?
[16:34] <vish> seems confusing to me though
[16:34] <vish> thorwil: is the lynx done in svg.. they asked me to use the lynx from wolter's design but i was considering using saleel's lynx but your's looks more awesome
[16:35] <Equiet> I have read it trought and looks like the autor wanted to make workspace more important.
[16:35] <thorwil> vish: yes, svg traced from a pencil sketch
[16:35] <vish> thorwil: could i use it? :)
[16:37] <thorwil> vish: sure. still use that drkvi minus a at yahoo dot com address?
[16:37] <vish> thorwil: yup.. thanks
[16:39] <vish> @yahoo.com
[16:39] <vish> hmm... !
[16:40] <vish> thorwil: why do people do that? at instead of @ .... dot com instead of .com?  i never understood it
[16:41] <thorwil> vish: protection against address collecting bots. though they might well work with those simple replacements
[16:42] <thorwil> vish: i don't care for my own address, it's widely distributed since long. spammers can kiss my feet
[16:42] <vish> thorwil: ah. that's why.. damn the bots...
[16:44] <thorwil> how the fuck do i join a mailing list via launchpad? a click on the Subscribe link send me to an edit-email-settings page
[16:45] <vish> thorwil: it might mean you are already a part of the list
[16:46] <thorwil> and that page has nothing for joining the list in question. sometimes i hate LP
[16:46] <vish> thorwil: i got the mail , thanks
[16:46] <thorwil> vish: i would have expected LP to tell me about a succesful subscription
[16:47] <thorwil> hell, gimme a plain mailman page like every other sane list
[16:47] <vish> it does , but sometimes it is buggy as hell!
[16:47] <vish> doesnt inform you just joined
[16:49] <thorwil> doesn't appear in the "Mailing list subscriptions" list
[16:55] <thorwil> so i need to become a team member and can't actually subscribe via that Subscribe button ...
[23:05] <darkmatter> vish: I am now (I was sleeping like a baby). iirc, nautilus uses 24 pix in the toolbar and falls back to 22 if none is available . one of the many things I dislike about gnome in general. they can't even agree on a size for toolbar icons.
[23:08] <vish> darkmatter: oh.. ok. but yeah , each app uses either 22/24 px :/
[23:12] <darkmatter> vish: well, officially it's supposed to be 24 for large toolbars, and *20* for small toolbars, as that is what is defined by gtk+ itself. they can't even get that right. but yeah. for the most part if the 24 isnt available the app will look for a named 22 to fill its place
[23:14] <darkmatter> gnome-panel on the otherhand defaults to 22 for applets.. insanity
[23:15] <vish> darkmatter: they should remove the text beside icons option for toolbars ...! it seems soo awkward on a horizontal toolbar.. while that makes sense on buttons
[23:16] <darkmatter> hears an idea. kill the redundant normal size. it serves no purpose other than frustration and pixel bloat
[23:17] <darkmatter> vish: by default, yes. I'd agree with that as a general rule