sebsebsebKr0ntab: It's Saturday in half of the world now. Also this channel is now publically logged, so it's best to have it mainly on topic really.00:06
Kr0ntabhmm... oookay.  I don't think it was that big a deal, but no sweat.00:07
sebsebsebKr0ntab: Yeah not a big deal I guess really,  but still.  Also this will be in the second log,  since the logs seem to start and finnish using UK time.00:08
sebsebsebKr0ntab: Been doing anything for the project recently?00:09
Kr0ntabJust joined up yesterday... and working on some now.00:10
Kr0ntabch 10... troubleshooting...00:10
sebsebseboh right yeah I was wondering what you were doing00:10
Kr0ntabgonna do some research on the forums and lp answers sites for recent/relevent questions... and add to the list I've been working on.00:11
sebsebsebrecent/relivent questions aye?00:12
sebsebsebwell  that's daily in #ubuntu00:12
Kr0ntabhehe.. yeah... but there's many questions about particular apps... and that's not necisarily something I'd call Ubuntu specific issues.  Gonna work towards pointing readers to process of elimination... and how to fix problems while avoiding common misteps.00:13
sebsebsebKr0ntab: ok well00:15
sebsebsebUbuntu Open Week stuff00:15
sebsebsebnow that should help you I think00:15
sebsebsebsome of that00:16
sebsebsebKr0ntab: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek00:17
* humphreybc would like to tell everyone that there is now a logbot in here so our channel logs are available here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/02:16
humphreybchave a look at this bug here please everyone: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/50466803:02
humphreybcand read what Ilya Haykinson has written about the chapter structure03:03
humphreybcPlease consider it and jot some feedback down on the bug report, we will probably discuss this in the brief tonight. What Ilya is proposing is a complete chapter overhaul which will affect everyone and will change the manual dramatically. I want everyone to have a say in this matter.03:04
humphreybcOh and if you're not aware of the brief, it'll start around 1100 UTC in this channel. It will be logged and I'll use MootBot to handle the meeting, just in case we need to vote on something.03:08
sebsebsebhumphreybc: some/all of us that were around, know about the logs already03:22
sebsebsebhumphreybc: check out the logs by the way, wolter wanted you etc03:22
humphreybcyeah i read them already03:22
humphreybci might catch him tonight03:23
sebsebsebhumphreybc: is that meeting 11am or 11pm  GMT/UTC ?03:26
sebsebsebmight want to add to the topic something for the logs03:32
sebsebsebhumphreybc: Interesting bug yeah,  one that should be sorted out properly, so indeed good idea to have a meeting about it.  Altough it seems I won't be taking part in the meeting, but that doesn't matter anyway, since I am not making the actsual manual, just providing a bit of feedback and that.03:41
sebsebseb(well not really an interesting bug, but one that should be sorted out yes)03:42
pererik87atyoutumight even bee gtm+X04:01
sebsebsebpererik87atyoutu: what's that?04:04
humphreybcit's 1100 UTC, 1100 is in 24 hour time04:05
humphreybcif it was 11pm it would be 2300 UTC, but it's not.04:05
sebsebsebhumphreybc: ah ha yes that's what I thought 11am GMT04:05
sebsebsebhumphreybc: by the way wolter is probably sleeping then since his time zone, but he is doing title/cover art anyway04:06
humphreybcdo you know what he wanted to talk to me about?04:06
humphreybcif he comes in ask him to email me04:06
humphreybci'll be at work today but back in time for the meeting04:06
humphreybci'll leave my computer on and online so he can leave me a PM on IRC if he wants04:07
humphreybcanyway, time to cook dinner before I head off to work. talk to you later sebsebseb04:07
sebsebsebhumphreybc: you work on Saturday? and Sunday?04:07
sebsebsebhumphreybc: I  might not be here when he next comes in04:08
sebsebseb(I am thinking about time zones a little bit, and no you probably don't work on a Sunday)04:10
pererik87atyoutugtm + x      11 gtm+1 = 1204:18
pererik87atyoutuno :P 11 gtm+1 = 10 gtm04:20
sebsebsebwhat's gtm?04:24
* humphreybc works on a saturday04:47
pererik87atyoutugmt :P05:06
sebsebsebpererik87atyoutu: call it gmt instead of gtm then :D   GMT/UTC05:07
sebsebsebhumphreybc: ok05:07
IlyaHaykinsonargh, the meeting is at 3am my local time :)05:16
nisshhhey guys06:36
nisshhjust checking in before i go on holiday06:36
jmburgesshey everyone07:45
wolterhi humphreybc08:17
wolteroh ok humphreybc I read the logs. sebsebseb told me to08:38
wolterWell, I wanted to check if you received the mail I sent to the list, about chapter 9 needing a transformation because we are writting too personal08:39
wolterhumphreybc, we should be objective, and not subjective by saying "Oh, this application is awesome because it lets you do this fantastic stuff and such and such"08:39
wolterWe should instead say like "With this application you can do this and that"08:39
wolterAlso, hm.. I have nothing to say about the titlepage else than that I already pushed it in the branch (both mine and vish's) and so we just need somebody to write in the script to make the titlepage the titlepage. Plus, we need to setup some kind of votation some time to see which will be the titlepage, at least for now08:41
wolterHmm, and yes.. I had to download texlive-extra or something like that.. still not the 567Mb package i thought I had to download in the beginning, but about 157 Mb08:42
wolterI could deal with that fine :08:42
wolterAnd um... if you get that email that I sent to the list, please read and we'll have a talk about it maybe on monday at 100 utc? (i think thats 2000 for me)08:44
wolterIts that today (as of jan 9) is my birthday, so I will be having some friends coming over and taking my days away from me and from the manual, and possible on sunday too08:44
wolterI don't know well, but anyway, I might be on either on sunday or morning08:45
woltermonday sorry08:45
wolterThe only thing you need to know is that I mostly hang out on IRC from 1300 to 200 in my time zone, which is in costa rica/central america, but no, it is utc-608:49
wolteror gmt-6, same thing i think08:49
pererik87atyoutuactually think i might have to reboot08:51
wolterSo... probably you can do the math and calculate when I am going to be online. I can talk about it anytime. Also, the meeting, if it is at 1100 utc, then it will be at 500 here, not pleasant at all as that is probably the time when my sleep is the heaviest, so.. I will not be attending. Could we change the meeting time for the next event? I would like to :) Anyway, bye and.. I hope you had fun reading all my jabber08:51
wolterGood pererik87atyoutu08:51
wolterAnd bye08:51
\vishhumphreybc: if you hadnt noticed it... I updated the mockup on the wiki , keeping in mind Andrew's suggestions08:57
=== \vish is now known as vish
=== IlyaHaykinson_ is now known as IlyaHaykinson
humphreybcback from work, how's everyone doin?10:23
* humphreybc is reading over the comments on bug #50466810:28
=== ianto is now known as Guest9039
humphreybcalright it's that time again10:58
humphreybcwho's here?10:58
tacantara{raises hand}...me :)11:00
humphreybchaha, one, not a bad start :P11:00
humphreybcnot like we have a lot to talk about anyway11:00
tacantaraActually, this has been a busy week.  I was going through my GMail folders and recapping all the work on the manual this past week11:01
humphreybchaha well yeah, the manual has had a tonne of progress11:02
humphreybcbut everything is running fairly smoothly - apart from the TOC reorganization11:02
humphreybcwe're well ahead of schedule11:02
humphreybcwell i suppose we'll give another couple of minutes for anyone else11:02
tacantaraWe've brought on more people to assist.  I have one pending, if I can just get him to decide.  He's still on the fence about joining the team.11:03
humphreybcKr0ntab, vish, dutchie, jmburgess, IlyaHaykinson are you guys there?11:03
humphreybcyep we have had an extraordinary amount of new members thanks to the media attention11:03
tacantaraI'm working off of the Lucid distro on my machine this morning.  Can you send the link with the bzr instructions so I can set up my sync folders?11:05
humphreybcalright i don't think many other people are here :O11:06
humphreybcoh well i suppose we can go ahead and start the meeting, even though there's hardly anyone in it :P11:07
MootBotMeeting started at 05:07. The chair is humphreybc.11:07
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]11:07
humphreybcokay, tacantara (or anyone) - have you got anything you'd like to raise?11:07
* jmburgess is here11:08
tacantaraNothing new to add.  I was concerned about the issue of CLI, as voiced during the week, but I think that topic is sufficiently addressed now.11:08
humphreybchey jmburgess11:09
humphreybcokay. well how do we think the manual is going?11:09
humphreybcon track for our first release?11:09
jmburgessAs far as I can tell we are definitely I track11:09
humphreybchaha awesome, yep I totally agree. We're miles ahead of where I originally planned. Formatting and translations already in place this early is unbelievable11:09
humphreybcoh jmburgess how is image support going?11:10
jmburgessI have a few more formatting things I need to do, but people seem to really be writing, the issue is this new ToC rewrite11:10
humphreybcyeah I think that's all we have to discuss really11:10
humphreybcdid you read the new bug comment I just added about 10 minutes ago?11:11
jmburgesshumphreybc: I have been working on getting like warning,notes,code boxes working, so I haven't touched images yet, but they will work its not too bad11:11
humphreybcjmburgess: oh neat!11:11
jmburgesshumphreybc: nope, I will go do that I just woke up (its 6:00am here)11:11
humphreybchaha damn sorry to wake you up so early11:11
jmburgesshaha its fine11:11
humphreybc(Saturday is a pretty average day, btw)11:11
humphreybcit's midnight here, just rolled over to sunday11:12
humphreybcanyway, yeah have a read of that comment11:12
* jmburgess reads11:12
humphreybctacantara: what chapter are you working on?11:12
tacantaraI'm not assigned any chapters.  I'm on the edit team, proofreading and such.11:12
humphreybcah okay gotcha11:13
humphreybcwhile we're waiting, maybe tacantara you can have a look at the title page proposals11:13
humphreybcand give us your feedback, preferably as a wiki comment on that page11:13
jmburgessalright, so I saw Wolter's comment and I don't like his naming because while it is cute and fun, it is not very useful sa to what the chapters do11:14
tacantaraThat should be easy enough.  I just got the folders downloaded via bzr11:14
humphreybcjmburgess: did you read the end of his comment?11:14
jmburgessAs for your comment, I think 1-6 definitely should be beginner (from your list)11:15
jmburgesshumphreybc: woops, didn't read the last sentence11:15
jmburgessand then 7-10 are in advanced, now do we want to add an advanced chapter on something new?11:15
humphreybcsuch as?11:16
jmburgessnot sure still thinking11:16
jmburgessi mean if you want to sort of balance things out11:16
humphreybci wasn't thinking of extra content11:16
humphreybcjust changing the positions of the content11:16
humphreybcalthough Ilya had a good point about the "Getting online" chapter11:16
humphreybcwe were sort of missing detail on that11:16
jmburgessyou are probably right, this re-org is going to be pretty huge11:16
humphreybcyeah i know11:17
humphreybcbut if we change it now we have to make sure it's right11:17
jmburgesscorrect, now we just need to change all the blueprints around11:17
humphreybcbecause we don't want to be farting around changing stuff all the time, especially now that more and more content is coming in11:17
humphreybcand what the hell happens with the translation rearrangement?11:17
jmburgessAlso, we will need to contact a few of the authors cause some of these things are getting combined11:17
humphreybcyeah well when we decide on something i'll email the mailing list11:18
humphreybcbut translations are going to be screwed11:18
jmburgesshmmmmm I don't know enough about how the translations work, but yeah the template stuff is going to be all kinds of messed up11:18
jmburgessI mean the strings are the same, just in different places11:18
humphreybcwell we haven't decided on the new arrangement yet11:19
jmburgesscorrect, but11:19
humphreybcwe do need a change11:19
jmburgessI think if we do we need to lock it in11:19
humphreybcso we need to make a wise decision here11:19
humphreybcno point rushing in and then realising we need to change it in two weeks again11:19
jmburgesswith only 2 people11:20
humphreybclol yea11:20
humphreybcdo we need to call a meeting for this?11:20
humphreybcor do you think we can handle it on the bug report and mailing list11:20
jmburgessright so do you want to just go chapter by chapter and list what should be in it now, or have a new meeting11:20
jmburgessyou beat me to it11:20
humphreybcmeetings are proving difficult11:20
jmburgessI feel like we won't be able to get enough people11:21
humphreybcwe have this huge discrepancy in time11:21
jmburgessand I don't want any more content to be written in the wrong place11:21
humphreybcyeah, so maybe bug report for now. we should be able to come to a conclusion on that11:21
humphreybcwell it's going to be a pain to change it, regardless of how much content we have. It'll just be a bit more to copy and paste, no?11:21
jmburgessright, do we want to go chapter by chapter now and just figure out what will need to get combined/moved if we go with the list you give on the latest comment11:22
jmburgessright, but its still more stuff11:22
humphreybcyou mean here in the meeting?11:22
humphreybcor on the chapter blueprints11:22
humphreybcwhat do you think of my proposal on the latest comment?11:22
jmburgessyeah and then just post it to the bug, and make sure everyone is ok with it11:22
humphreybcsure. we should make everyone read this log.11:23
jmburgessbut yeah I think your latest comment make sense11:23
humphreybcwell we have to make sure we check all the boxes. We can't release the manual with a whole section on something missing that we've all forgotten. and i'm not a superhuman so i'm not sure if i've got everything in my proposal11:24
humphreybcokay so we'll go over the chapters now i think. and I'll summarize in a new bug comment11:24
humphreybc(and advise they read the logs)11:24
humphreybctacantara: feel free to join in and have your say11:24
jmburgesswait hold on do you have a chapter on important ubuntu apps such as ryhtmbox, etc..11:25
humphreybcno I took out the chapter Ilya proposed about going through every default app11:25
tacantaraJust looked at title page, found it to be very professional.  We're definitely putting a good first image out there.11:25
humphreybcI figured we can include the IMPORTANT ones under chapter 211:25
jmburgessOk well we need to say that, cause we can't forget things like rhythm box11:25
humphreybcso a section/subsection to chapter 2 can very briefly touch on stuff like ryhthmbox, firefox, openoffice, F-Spot etc11:26
jmburgesswell note firefox, that is ch. 311:26
jmburgessbut yes11:26
humphreybcyeah but do we need to teach people how to use these apps? i mean we have to stick to our niche here, and we don't want to make it an all encompassing manual11:26
jmburgessI think we need a paragraph on it11:26
humphreybca paragraph on each?11:26
jmburgessnot on every app just like11:26
humphreybcbut how much detail? "Press play to play your music. Press Pause to pause your music"11:27
tacantaraGood point.  Talking about Rhythmbox can become a very detailed area, if you go into iPod syncing (another noob concern)11:27
dutchiewhy don't we say "Open Rhythmbox to manage your music, or buy more music from the Ubuntu One Music Store"?11:27
jmburgessNo I mean like Rhytmbox is an excellent media player here is how to import your music and here is a screenshot, and here is the wiki link to mor info11:27
humphreybcso more like a paragraph: "Use Rhythmbox to listen to your music, sync with your portable media player. Use F-Spot to manage and edit photos" etc11:27
dutchieyeah, something like that11:27
humphreybchello dutchie11:28
dutchieso they know which app to use for what11:28
humphreybcnice of you to join us :)11:28
jmburgessjust enough to like get them started so they can play with it11:28
dutchieonly just got up11:28
humphreybcalthough the install slideshow gives some detail on which app to use for what11:28
humphreybcand the menu is split into categories. how hard can it be? :P11:28
humphreybcokay fair enough11:28
jmburgesshey dutchie, since you know about translations do you know if everything will be messed up if we do all this chapter rearranging?11:28
dutchiedon't think so11:29
jmburgessyeah I think a simple paragraph to help them import stuff, and then a link to the wiki page is good enough11:29
humphreybcalright so let's go back to the beginning. Prologue and About Ubuntu: basically includes chapter 1 and chapter 2 as they are now. nothing extra. right?11:29
dutchieit should keep all the translations that have already been done if I understand it correctly11:29
humphreybcdutchie: let's hope so11:29
jmburgesshumphreybc: correct11:29
humphreybcoh does someone want to jot down notes on each chapter?11:29
humphreybc(for the bug comment)11:30
jmburgessSo Ch 1 & 2 => prolgouge11:30
jmburgessim doin it11:30
humphreybcawesome xD11:30
jmburgessalright chapter 1 of the new ToC is chapter 3 of the old ToC11:30
humphreybcokay installation, basically chapter 3. sections underneath it include what's already in chapter 3, live CD, partitioning etc. Although - "What version to choose" should go to chapter 10. We need to assume they've already got Ubuntu if they're reading this.11:30
humphreybcwell almost, with some exceptions like i said above11:31
humphreybchappy with that everyone?11:31
dutchievery good11:31
tacantaraThat works11:31
humphreybcinfo on the LiveCD and a detailed step by step install guide. Easy.11:31
humphreybcSo that's chapter 1 of the new ToC. Chapter 2 is going to have a lot of sections.11:32
jmburgessChapter 2 is the gnome environment part of ch. 4, plus information on some basic applications11:32
humphreybcand I propose we rename it to something with GNOME in it11:32
humphreybcbecause, well, it is GNOME.11:33
jmburgessand those applications are rhytnbox, opeoffice, fspot, tomboy?, anything else?11:33
jmburgessI think it should be introduction to Ubuntu because we are going to cover a few apps11:33
humphreybcuhm... what else comes default... nautilus?11:33
humphreybcoh true11:33
jmburgessdutchie: firefox will be in ch. 3 (internet)11:33
dutchiemight be worth mentioning chromium if that's going to be the default browser in UNR11:33
humphreybcyeah forgot about that11:33
jmburgessdutchie: Is it really?11:33
dutchieUbuntu One will merit at least a paragraph11:34
tacantaraEmpathy is a default app11:34
humphreybcdutchie: hmm.... we don't want to go talking about different distros here. as far as I'm concerned UNR is a different distro to Ubuntu11:34
humphreybcoh yeah empathy11:34
jmburgessgoes in the internet section11:34
dutchieI was about to say that11:34
humphreybcso Rythmbox, OpenOffice, Tomboy, F-Spot, Empathy and Ubuntu One. Firefox is going to the internet chapter.11:34
humphreybcokay so empathy in the internet chapter too11:34
jmburgesssounds good11:35
humphreybcoh shite11:35
humphreybcyeah Pitivi11:35
humphreybcand nautilus11:35
tacantaraHow about Brasero and Movie Player?11:35
humphreybctoo many default apps!11:35
dutchiethere's quite a lot :)11:35
humphreybcdarn you ubuntu for being so good!11:35
jmburgessPitivi I feel like is out of the scope of this manual11:36
dutchieI don't think we need to cover them all11:36
humphreybccore 5?11:36
jmburgesslike we can say, browse around the menus to see other apps11:36
dutchiejust things used in sort of day-to-day running11:36
dutchiemaybe not even F-Spot11:36
humphreybcphotos, videos, music, navigation11:36
humphreybcand then internet in the other chapter11:36
dutchiewe could have a "Multimedia" chapter11:36
humphreybcwell, section under chapter 2 of the new ToC11:37
humphreybcit does kinda warrant it's own chapter11:37
humphreybcmaybe we need 11 chapters11:37
humphreybcor even turn 10 into an "afterthought" or something11:37
dutchieespecially if we start mentioning codecs and whatnot11:37
humphreybca "postlogue" :P11:37
humphreybcokay there you go11:37
dutchieprobably appendix11:38
jmburgessDo we want a media chapter that contains rhytmbox, f-spot, pitivi11:38
humphreybcdon't forget we've still got the credits and glossary to pile on here11:38
jmburgessa internet chapter that has evolution, firefox, empathy11:38
tacantaraIf we subsection Chapter 2 to cover default apps, it'd be logical to follow the format of the Applications menu, perhaps pointing out key apps only11:38
humphreybcwell we're talking so many default apps here they might warrant their own chapter11:38
humphreybcat least for the multimedia ones11:38
dutchieI'm not sure if "OMG, it's got 15 chapters" is a valid concern11:38
dutchiepeople are more likely to look at the page count IMO11:39
jmburgessWhy don't we have an Apps chapter insted of just inernet apps, and talk about all the keys apps11:39
jmburgesslike we don't need a tutorial on firefox or on evolution11:39
humphreybcso Applications after chapter 211:39
humphreybcmake it chapter 311:39
jmburgesswe just need a paragraph, screenshot and a link to the wiki page11:39
humphreybcpush everything down a number, make chapter 10 an epilogue. or even just chapter 11.11:39
jmburgessso wait11:39
jmburgessCh 2 is titled.....11:39
humphreybcbut then we're talking about applications twice in the manual... but i suppose they're important..... ;)11:39
jmburgessim sorry im confused11:40
dutchiethat's something to avoid I think humphreybc11:40
* humphreybc wonders if other project meetings go for so long11:40
* jmburgess hopes they wont11:40
humphreybcwe have a problem11:40
humphreybcDo we talk about the core apps AND extra apps later on11:41
humphreybcdo we only talk about core apps11:41
humphreybcand not mention extra apps at all?11:41
jmburgessI think core apps only11:41
dutchiecore apps only11:41
humphreybcor do we not talk about core apps and just let them freestyle11:41
dutchiewe should *mention* core apps11:41
humphreybchow about we don't talk about core apps, but include that list of extra apps as a list.11:41
jmburgessWhy don't we have a getting around Ubuntu chapter which covers nautilus stuff, and gnome stuff11:41
tacantaraI think it'd be worthwhile to discuss the core apps, to the extent that we say "here they are."11:41
humphreybcwe don't talk about extra apps ***11:41
humphreybcwell core apps are more important to a newbie than extra ones, right?11:42
jmburgessand then have a Applications chapter and say a little paragraph or two about them11:42
humphreybcso they should have a higher priority11:42
jmburgessi think Ch. 3 should just be titled Applications11:42
dutchiewe could direct them to the B-Sides project for extra apps11:42
humphreybcdutchie true11:42
tacantaraFrom a noob perspective, the extra apps come in as a need is discovered (i.e. how can I scan this document)11:42
humphreybcalthough, why don't we just include that list simply as a list11:42
humphreybcin chapter 1011:42
dutchiehang on, how does the proposed ToC look now?11:43
humphreybcthe extra apps list.. cheese etc11:43
humphreybclast comment by me11:43
dutchieOK, thakns11:43
jmburgessI think Ch. 3 should not be internet it should be applications11:44
humphreybcso we rename "Internet, Emails and IM" to "Applications" and include info on about 8 default apps.11:44
dutchieis there a reason there is no chapter 9 in that list?11:44
humphreybcand then "Extra Applications" becomes just a simple bullet point list that we recommend, instead of a summary/feature list and screenshot (as chapter 9 stands now)11:44
humphreybcdutchie: ^^11:44
humphreybcjust to give the readers an idea about good software11:45
humphreybcinstead of having to google "top 10 ubuntu apps" or something'11:45
humphreybcor trial and error install every single music player to find a decent one11:45
humphreybc(and there are a LOT of music players in the repos)11:45
humphreybcokay cool Joe are you getting all this down?11:46
humphreybcwell not all this11:46
humphreybcbut the important bits on each chapter and what it includes11:46
jmburgessso the 8 apps are11:46
humphreybcand.... nautlius11:46
jmburgessi thought naitulus would be in getting around ubuntu11:47
humphreybcoh okay11:47
humphreybcin that case... move player?11:47
jmburgesscause nautilus doesn't look like a seperate app11:47
humphreybchow about 7 apps then11:47
jmburgesssounds good11:47
humphreybcmovie player is higher priority than pitivi - people will want to watch movies before they want to edit them11:47
jmburgessok then I will include totem11:48
humphreybcso either 7 or 8 if we include movie player11:48
humphreybcok swet11:48
jmburgessdo any of the current chapters overlap with this chapter11:48
humphreybcnow chapter 4, "Settings and external devices"11:48
humphreybci don't think so11:48
jmburgesschaper 411:48
humphreybcwe don't have synaptic, software center, or terminal in our list of apps11:48
humphreybcyou guys talk about that for a sec while i pop off to the loo11:48
jmburgesshumphreybc: those go in 511:49
jmburgesschapter 4 should include11:49
jmburgesssetting up a printer11:49
jmburgessconfiguring display11:50
tacantaraRefresh my memory please....is the subject of "Ubuntu Restricted Extras" touched on in Chapter 3?  That's a useful bit for Firefox (flash) and the media players11:50
humphreybcdesktop effects?11:50
humphreybcoh crud restricted extras11:50
humphreybcwhere do we put that?11:50
jmburgessI think in the firefox section, mention flash11:50
tacantaraRestricted extras is one of those things that always throws noobs for a loop.  Been there myself.11:51
dutchieas a side note11:51
humphreybcside note in chapter 2?11:51
dutchie(like those, well done jmburgess)11:51
humphreybcor 4?11:51
humphreybcso side note beside firefox11:51
dutchienext to whichever of firefox, rhythmbox or totem that comes up first11:52
humphreybc"to enable more stuffs you need to install ubuntu restricted extras"11:52
jmburgesswe forgot ubuntu one in applications11:52
jmburgessdo we want it?11:52
humphreybcwe probably should11:52
jmburgessalright its in11:53
humphreybcespecially with the emphasis on "social from the start" in lucid11:53
humphreybcand hows abouts this new "MeMenu" in Lucid?11:53
jmburgessdoes the new ch. 4 come from any other chapter?11:53
humphreybcworryingly, i don't think so11:54
humphreybcwe completely forgot to tell them about the settings menu11:54
humphreybcsorry, "system" menu11:54
jmburgessso at this point I feel like we are going to have to delete some of the old chapters, which might be bad11:54
humphreybcsuch as?11:54
jmburgesssome of ch 511:55
jmburgessall of ch 911:55
humphreybcdamn i wish we decided on this last weekend at our first meeting. man it's only been a week since the initial meeting, and we've achieved so much11:55
humphreybcall of ch 9 is no worries.11:55
humphreybcwho's on 5?11:55
jmburgessDeon Spengler11:56
jmburgesshas he done anything?11:56
humphreybcnot sure11:56
humphreybcis there content in chapter 5?11:56
dutchieapologies, got to dash11:57
humphreybcso much for hints and tips11:57
humphreybcokay dutchie, no worries11:57
humphreybcokay cool11:57
humphreybcso chapter 4 is all good, chapter 5... software center/synaptic11:57
humphreybcexplain the concept of packaging11:57
jmburgesshold on ch. 4 I have11:58
jmburgessdesktop effects11:58
jmburgesswhat else?11:58
humphreybcabout me?11:58
humphreybcstuff like mouse etc shouldn't be too hard to find11:58
jmburgessalright I think that is a fine list11:59
jmburgessch. 5!11:59
humphreybcwe can include things as notes like: "to change your mouse sensitivity, go to System > Preferences > Mouse and adjust the slider"11:59
jmburgessjust the old updates section of ch 611:59
humphreybcwait isn't 6 going to include updating?11:59
humphreybc5 should just be software center, intro to packages and how they work and then synaptic12:00
jmburgessI think system maintence should be cleaning up, and backup12:00
jmburgessthat works12:00
humphreybcthen maybe we could have the list of apps from the (current) chapter 9 there too12:00
humphreybckinda like "recommended apps from the software center"12:00
jmburgessSo the applications part of ch. 412:00
humphreybci think the software center is going to have recommended apps on the front page when u open it up12:00
humphreybcum so ch 6 will be cleaning up, backing up and updating/upgrading12:01
humphreybcexplain we don't have to defrag etc12:02
humphreybcno viruses either :)12:02
humphreybcso really ubuntu maintains most stuff for you12:02
jmburgessand ch. 5 is just the applications section of old ch. 4 right?12:02
humphreybcyeah plus updating and upgrading from old chapter 612:02
jmburgessI thought that was going in new ch. 612:03
humphreybcoh wait12:03
humphreybcmy bad12:03
humphreybcyes it is lol12:03
humphreybcblah blah blah :)12:03
jmburgessso Ch. 612:04
humphreybc6 is updating upgrading, and12:04
jmburgesscleaning (using computer janitor)12:04
jmburgessand backup12:04
jmburgessnone of those require terminal12:04
humphreybcyeah but computer janitor is hideous and destroys your computer12:04
jmburgessit does?12:04
jmburgessI thought it just ran apt-get update12:05
jmburgessapt-get clean12:05
humphreybcit removes stuff that you've downloaded from sites12:05
humphreybclike deb packages that aren't in repos12:05
humphreybcand also removes packages from custom PPAs12:05
humphreybcprobably not a huge issue for newbies tho12:05
jmburgessoh wow your right12:05
humphreybcbut i never use it12:05
humphreybcit's dangerous12:05
jmburgesshow about we just don't include cleaning packages12:05
humphreybcthey're working on it for lucid tho12:05
jmburgessand whenever a proper gui for it comes out12:05
jmburgesswe will include it12:05
humphreybcyeah should be better in lucid i believe12:06
humphreybcalthough not sure12:06
jmburgessch 6 is12:06
jmburgessold ch 612:06
jmburgessminus cleaning packages12:06
jmburgessplus backin up12:06
jmburgessand I think I will talk about using TimeVault12:06
jmburgessis that ok with everyone12:06
humphreybceveryone = me12:06
humphreybcme = yes12:06
humphreybci've never used time vault but it sounds cool12:07
humphreybcoh tacantara you're still here xD12:07
jmburgessCh. 7!12:07
jmburgessThis is where advanced starts12:07
humphreybcwell chapter 7 is just intro to terminal12:07
jmburgessRight which is the same in the old version12:07
humphreybcso the first half of current chapter 712:07
humphreybcwell minus system maintenance part of 712:08
humphreybc(old 7)12:08
humphreybcsort of left this out12:08
humphreybcsystem maintenance?12:08
jmburgessI think in system maintenance12:08
humphreybcit doesn't have to be long, linux is fairly secure. and ubuntu opens no ports by default12:08
humphreybcokay add that as a section in system maintenance12:08
humphreybccool chapter 812:09
humphreybcwell same as current chapter 1012:09
humphreybci mean12:09
jmburgessAlso I think that we just need to put in notes throughout the manual on like only use signed packages12:09
humphreybcold chapter 1012:09
humphreybcyep good idea12:09
humphreybcthese notes will be handy12:09
jmburgessIll make a security note as well12:09
jmburgessso ch. 9?12:10
humphreybcchapter nine is just old chapter 1012:10
jmburgessI thought 8 was old ch. 1012:10
jmburgessyou skip 9 on your list btw12:10
humphreybcoh crap lol12:10
humphreybcso 8 is old chapter 1012:11
humphreybcno idea what chapter 9 will be12:11
humphreybci feel like the fate of the world lies in the outcome of this rather casual meeting O.o12:11
humphreybcwe could have a dedicated chapter on security12:12
humphreybcor bring back our extra apps chater12:12
jmburgesslets just have 9 chapters12:12
humphreybcor split up new ch 3 into "multimedia apps" and "internet apps"12:12
jmburgessbut then where does tomboy go?12:13
humphreybcor just have 9 chapters, right12:13
humphreybcoh gawd true12:13
humphreybcwho uses tomboy, really12:13
* jmburgess hugs is tomboy12:13
humphreybcman i never make notes on my computer. if i do it's alt+F2 gedit12:13
humphreybcokay 9 chapters it is for now12:14
humphreybci think that fits everything in12:14
humphreybccould you pastebin your notes?12:14
jmburgessch. 9 is a completly new chapter right?12:14
humphreybcwell kinda12:14
humphreybcit's "Learning more about Linux and extra applications"12:14
humphreybcso involves the "choosing a version" part from old chapter 312:15
humphreybcand talks about other distros12:15
humphreybcand has our list of extra apss12:15
jmburgesssounds good12:15
humphreybcprobably Unix/Linux history could go in there, but nah12:15
humphreybcthat can go with history of Ubuntu12:15
jmburgesswhich extra apps do we want?12:16
humphreybcthe stuff on the wiki list currently12:16
humphreybcpitivi won't be extra tho12:17
humphreybcand opera 10.5 might be better than google chrome when they release it (the alpha seems to be)12:17
MootBotLINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/353908/12:17
tacantaraThe list on the wiki is good.  As users become familiar with the concept of Software Center and Synaptic, they'll know to go to those when they have a need for an app12:17
jmburgessDoes that make sense to everyone12:18
humphreybcmakes sense to me12:18
tacantaraFor sure12:18
jmburgessalrighty, I am going to clean that up a bit and then post it12:18
humphreybcmention that the extra apps list in the new ToC won't include detail12:19
humphreybcit'll just be a list12:19
humphreybcrename "sidebar" to note12:19
humphreybcother than that sweet12:19
humphreybcwe'll have to see what the others say12:19
jmburgesssounds good12:19
humphreybcso who's going to change around all this shit under latex?12:20
* humphreybc realises he can't swear now that it's a logged channel12:20
jmburgessummm I can if you want12:20
humphreybcyou sure?12:20
humphreybci'll change the wiki12:20
humphreybcand sort out the sections12:20
humphreybcthen you could use that as a guide12:21
humphreybcbut we can't really start yet12:21
humphreybctill the rest of the team has their say on our proposal12:21
humphreybcit's a democracy, after all12:21
jmburgessif you do all the blueprint re doin12:21
humphreybci'll handle the blueprints and wiki12:21
humphreybcwhen we do change over12:21
humphreybcanything else?12:22
humphreybcman 1hr, 20min long meeting... supposed to be a "brief!"12:22
humphreybcthat's an ironic name for a long meeting..12:22
MootBotMeeting finished at 06:22.12:22
humphreybcoh yeah and jmburgess you'll have to work out a better way to display the credits12:23
humphreybcpreferably not as another chapter12:23
jmburgessmy list of latex things to do is12:23
humphreybcand without bullet points12:23
jmburgesswork on notes12:23
jmburgessget images goin12:23
jmburgessToC to look pretty12:23
jmburgessglossary to function (and write wiki entry on how)12:24
vishhi... folks.. damn i missed the meeting  :/12:24
jmburgessindex to function (and write wiki entry on how)12:24
vishwell , i'll check logs  ;)12:24
jmburgessAnd credits12:24
humphreybcvish you sure did! no worries, check the log out12:24
jmburgessan index in the back12:25
humphreybcoh okay neat12:25
jmburgessits pretty easy in latex so I figured why not12:25
humphreybchow will that work? automated?12:25
jmburgessI mean I think you have to choose words, but it is easy12:25
vishhumphreybc: i wanted to mention something , I noticed a lot of mails regarding terminal and commands in the manual. I didnt check out the pages actually are there several commands that users are asked to use? if so we should try and keep this to the minimul12:26
jmburgessI agree, I think the terminalshould not be mentioned until the advanced section12:27
humphreybcwait vish:12:27
humphreybcdo you mean for people working on the manual?12:27
vishhumphreybc: no , i mean in the actual manual contents. there is mention of codeblocks ,etc...12:28
humphreybcoh right12:28
humphreybcyeah that's only for chapter 7 (terminal)12:28
humphreybcwe are gonna avoid CLI at all costs everywhere else :)12:29
vishhumphreybc: try not to move that chapter out to the advanced section and an introduction before the really advanced stuff12:30
vishtry to move*12:30
humphreybcyep we've done that12:30
humphreybccheck out: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/50466812:30
vishcool :)12:30
humphreybcthe last two comments12:30
humphreybcthey basically summarize what you missed in this meeting :(12:30
humphreybc:) *12:30
* vish reads12:31
jmburgesshumphreybc: since you did the last one, do you want me to write the summary for this12:32
humphreybcsure if you want to12:32
jmburgessI will12:32
jmburgessI am actually going to go back to bed now12:32
humphreybcjust stick it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings12:33
humphreybchaha fair enough mate12:33
jmburgessbut I will see you guys later12:33
humphreybci do not blame you!12:33
humphreybcand i'm going to sleep12:35
humphreybcnight everyone12:35
vishhumphreybc: so if I'm reading the comments right. chp7 is now only an intro to terminal12:35
humphreybcwell kinda12:35
humphreybcbut if you look at the old intro12:35
humphreybchere: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TableOfContents12:35
humphreybcyou'll notice it includes quite a lot12:36
humphreybcWhat is a terminal? Sudo in the terminal Browsing the file system Manipulating files Virtual terminals Useful commands12:36
humphreybcso that should be no problem12:37
vishhumphreybc: is the intro really necessary? if it is to be there in the end of the intro you could just say "Dont worry you dont need terminal to really enjoy Ubuntu"12:37
humphreybcleave your comments on the new proposed ToC on the bug report12:37
vishhumphreybc: ok.. sure12:38
humphreybchaha sorry i'm going to sleep now, almost 2am here :)12:38
vishhumphreybc: nite  , bye12:38
komsasI found this project and now thinking to translate it in Lithuanian. I see that all writing is in early development so when is right to start translate this manual? in Alpha release?12:53
vishjmburgess: ^^12:54
vishkomsas: i think jmburgess and other team members working actively on the manual are asleep... you just missed them by a few mins12:56
jmburgessi was just checking irc12:57
jmburgesskomsas: now!12:57
jmburgesskomsas: check out https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual12:58
jmburgessthat should get you started12:58
komsasso all string what is now written dont change in feature?12:59
jmburgessthey might change in the future, but they shouldn't too much13:00
jmburgessif you want to wait until after the alpha release you can13:00
jmburgesskomsas: does that make sense?13:03
komsasthanks jmburgess I think will find more Lithuanian Ubuntu user who want to contribute and after the alpha we will start13:03
jmburgessexcellent thank you ver much for helping13:05
=== Guest9039 is now known as ianto
thorwilhi! i'm trying to join your mailing list via LP. the Subscribe link doesn't seem to work for me16:50
thorwilis there a mailman interface? i note it's not listed on https://lists.ubuntu.com/16:51
dutchieyou should automatically be subscribed if you join the team16:53
dutchiecheck https://help.launchpad.net/Teams/MailingLists16:53
thorwilignore me, just saw i'd need to become a member first. so it's a LP bug the Subscribe button is there nonetheless16:54
thorwilok, joined team and list16:54
wolterdutchie, are you there?17:23
wolterhey, humphrey wanted to get a bot for the channel17:25
wolternow i know where to get them, but I don't know if you should install it or something17:25
wolterdutchie, i just know that ubottu is derived of some "supybot" or something like that, but you can get more info if you go to #ubuntu-irc and say !botclone17:26
dutchiedid you ask the guys in #ubuntu-irc about getting the bot in here?17:30
dutchiewhat did they say?17:31
wolterthe major guy, terrese morris or something17:31
woltersaid ubottu was in too many channels17:31
wolterand ccouldn't handle one more17:31
wolteror something like that17:31
dutchiedid you ask about ubot4 or ubot2?17:31
wolterbut he said that we could get a bot from launchpad, that supybot17:31
wolterno, I did not, are they different?17:31
dutchiei'll go and ask in #ubuntu-irc17:32
wolterhey thorwil17:41
wolteryou there? I saw your titlepage proposal17:41
thorwilhi wolter17:41
wolterI have to say I like it, its very clean17:41
wolterI have some feedback though17:42
thorwilwolter: thanks, i'm listening17:42
wolterI think that the lynx takes away a lot of the attention. It is very nice that it only occupies 3 colors17:42
wolterBut I think it would do better off as a watermark, or if it was next to the title, as you said on the mail17:42
wolterAlso, I think that "created by" is sort of missing from the cover17:43
wolterand that that couple of texts (the credits and the manual version release) are a bit big and a bit distracting as well17:43
thorwilwolter: one would have to reduce the lynx to shape or line with no eyes to have a chance of it not working like an eye magnet17:44
wolteryou're probably right17:45
wolteryou made the lynx?17:45
thorwilwolter: making the text smaller is easy. might just use the internal text size as smallest17:45
thorwilwolter: yes, for a t-shirt, initially17:45
wolteroh, nice17:45
wolterbut i like how you aligned everything to a vertical line17:46
wolterlooks neat17:46
thorwilthat's the idea :)17:47
wolternow, I do agree with what you said about the coof17:47
wolteri wouldn't bash it away, but move it somewhere else17:47
thorwilwolter: it's a rather loud element and must be handled very careful to not throw things off balance17:48
thorwilit's easier t handle in a single color, but i kinda feel bad whenever i try that17:49
wolterThe cof in a single color?17:51
wolteryeah well, i think we should (all) attach our svg documents17:52
wolterto fool around and get to optimal designs17:52
thorwilhmm, i prefer to tweak my designs myself based on feedback. too many cooks, design by committee and all that ...17:55
thorwildinner time, bbl17:55
dutchiesuggestions for a nick for the bot?17:56
=== ip3t3r_ is now known as xchat-p3t3r
vishdutchie: Skynet ? ;)18:09
dutchieI bet that's taken18:09
=== ip3t3r is now known as xcht-p3t3r
manualbotHere I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.18:24
dutchieone bot18:24
dutchiebug 118:26
thorwilvish: are you currently editing the wiki?18:27
vishoh.. yeah18:27
vishthorwil: just used your lynx and adding the mage18:28
dutchiebug 118:28
thorwilvish: just saw a warning, but it saved my edit18:28
thorwilvish: tell me when you're done18:28
vishah , np.. was just attaching the image18:28
dutchiebug 118:29
manualbotdutchie: Error: I don't have a bugtracker .18:29
manualbotdutchie: Error: I don't have a bugtracker .18:29
vishthorwil: have you finished editing the page?18:29
vishit seems locked with you18:29
thorwilvish: yes, just did18:29
* vish tries again18:30
dutchiebug 118:30
manualbotLaunchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu Jaunty "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118:30
thorwilwolter: added the svg source, since i provided vish with the lynx already, anyway :)18:30
dutchieright, that should do for now18:31
dutchieany more suggestions about the bot?18:31
vishthorwil: the "Ubuntu 10.04 Operating system" is not center aligned..18:32
thorwilvish: what do you think it is supposed to be aligned with?18:34
vishthorwil: hmm , the whole page seems center aligned except those two lines :(18:34
thorwilvish: http://www.foopics.com/get/75a8ad05694f6eabbffc8c99c4a56a32/018:36
vishthorwil: i attached a version with your lynx18:36
thorwilvish: i really wonder how you came to think aynthing would be center aligned18:38
vishthorwil: oh , the "The" is out of line then ;) but if not for the lines it seems the text is center aligned18:38
vishthorwil: exclude the image and note the text18:39
vishthorwil: it just happens that all the text below are the same length[except the second line] , so they seem aligned together.. rather than left aligned18:40
vishan unfortunate coincidence18:41
thorwiltrue. especially the footer is too close to having the same margin to both sides18:42
thorwilwell, that will disappear with smaller text18:42
wolteroh let me check wiki18:43
wolterdutchie, i could come up with a name18:43
wolterhm.. manubot?18:43
dutchiewell, it's manualbot now18:43
thorwilvish: that's a rather brutal treatment of the lynx18:43
dutchie!hello | wolter18:43
manualbotwolter: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines . Enjoy your stay!18:43
wolteris that manual bot sounds like non-automatic bot18:44
vishthorwil: you know me i suck the goodness out of everything ;p18:44
dutchieheh, hadn't thought of that18:44
vishdutchie: autobot ?18:44
wolterdecept... nah i better don't start that18:44
wolterso, we have about 3 bots now18:45
wolterMootBot, manualbot and ubuntulog ?18:45
woltercan't manual bot do all three of functions?18:45
dutchieit can log, but it can't put them on logs.ubuntu.com or wherever ubuntulog puts them18:45
wolterhow about manuel?18:46
wolterits a real name, and sounds like manual18:46
dutchieooh, I like that18:46
wolterwould be funny if people thought at first manuel was a human being haha18:46
wolternice =D18:46
dutchiefawlty towers jokes available too18:46
wolterooh vish i like your update with lynx18:47
wolterone thing though, the square cut looks very un-smooth18:47
wolterhow about MootBot /18:48
vishwolter: i would have tried to do an outline of the lynx alone.. but i was lazy .;)18:48
wolteroh hah18:48
wolterI actually like how that lynx can be reduced to a 2 color pallete18:49
wolteralso you should finish up the ears :-\18:49
dutchiebah, manuel is registered18:49
wolterthat *sucks*18:50
wolterwho has it?18:50
wolterima break their face18:50
dutchiesome guy actually called manuel ;)18:50
wolterahh.. as a man name18:52
dutchiemeh, I'll stick with manualbot18:52
wolterill think of something else anyway18:52
wolterhaha, how about rtfmbot18:54
dutchiemaybe not the best impression to give18:55
wolteryeah, i know, jk18:55
=== wolter is now known as rtfmbot
=== rtfmbot is now known as wolter
dutchiewolter: you didn't just register it did you?18:57
wolterno haha18:57
wolteri was trying to see how to check for registered names18:58
wolterbut you didn't want it anyway haha18:58
wolterwhere did the bot go?18:58
dutchieoffline, while I fiddle the config again18:58
wolteranyway, i will keep thinking of names.. i think robomanuel would be nice18:58
wolteryou don't have to take the names, as you know already18:59
wolterill just be saying some names in case you want any18:59
dutchiewin 2018:59
wolterwin 20?18:59
dutchiewhile since I've done that18:59
dutchiemeant to change to irssi window 20, but missed the /19:00
=== wolter is now known as manolo
=== manolo is now known as wolter
dutchiewolter: /msg NickServ info <nick>19:06
=== wolter is now known as manuelette
=== manuelette is now known as wolter
* dutchie goes for manualbot19:07
* wolter knows ^_^19:07
* wolter just thinks manualbot is a bit boring, not that it should be funny though19:08
woltertumbot would stand for the ubuntu manual bot19:12
* wolter feels a "shut up" frequency coming from dutchie19:12
pererik87It doesn't stand howto: New wacom tablet bamboo(pen) + karmic koala Nightmare somewhere in the manual19:15
wolterpererik87, lol what?19:16
wolterworks out of the box19:16
wolterwell, bamboo fun at least19:16
dutchiepererik87: the manual isn't really supposed to go into that much detail about things like that19:16
pererik87first of all it does not work with the new ones. and second. i was not serious about looking for it in the manual:P19:17
pererik87ctl-460 googling untill my head hurts19:18
wolteri knew that19:18
manualbotHere I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.19:31
manualbotHere I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.19:36
dutchieright, one bot all ready to go19:37
manualbotHere I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.19:43
strubblcool project!21:07
manualbotFactoid 'quotes' not found21:52
dutchie!quotes is <reply> LaTeX quotes should be done like ``this'' or `this', not like "this" or 'this'21:52
dutchie!quotes is <reply> LaTeX quotes should be done like ``this'' or `this', not like "this" or 'this'22:14
manualbotLaTeX quotes should be done like ``this'' or `this', not like "this" or 'this'22:14
dutchieubuntu-manual rev 5022:17
dutchie@Svn ubuntu-manual 5022:18
manualbotdutchie: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/50 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 5022:18
dutchiehey humphreybc22:19
dutchiecheck this out:22:19
manualbotHere I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.22:19
dutchiealso, this:22:22
dutchie@Svn rev 5022:22
dutchiemanualbot: Svn rev 6022:22
manualbotFactoid 'Svn rev 60' not found22:22
manualbothttp://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/60 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 6022:22
humphreybclol who put the bot in here?22:22
dutchiewe've got the bug 1 tracking thing too22:23
strubblwhich software is this bot?22:23
manualbotdutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)22:23
dutchiestrubbl: supybot22:24
* humphreybc is unbelievably thrilled that he can access his uni work over the internet without having to venture out in the rain22:24
* dutchie pokes manualbot with bug 1 again22:24
manualbotdutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)22:25
humphreybchaha well it works but with errors?22:25
dutchieah, it'll sort itself out eventually22:25
humphreybcright i need me some coffee. busy sunday, assignment due tomorrow.22:27
humphreybcvish are you there?22:33
humphreybcdid wolter not send you his lynx yet?22:33
dutchieah yes, I was going to set up a thingy to pop up when wiki edits happeneed22:33
vishhumphreybc: did you check the wiki? I added a cover with thorwil's lynx22:33
humphreybcdutchie: that would be cool. i'm already subscribed but popups in here would be oresome22:34
humphreybcvish yeah I did22:34
humphreybcand I think wolters lynx would look infinitely better22:34
vish hm...22:35
humphreybcthorwills lynx is square shaped! it works well on his22:35
humphreybcbut not on yours!22:35
vishhumphreybc: i'll try it without the square?22:35
humphreybcwell you could but I would just wait till wolter emails you his. have you asked him yet?22:36
vishbah... then it would look weird :/22:36
humphreybcseriously just wait till he sends you his. you'll see what i mean :)22:36
humphreybcwhat does everyone think of thorwil's proposals?22:36
vishhumphreybc: ok..sure... wolter ?22:36
vishwolter: do you have your latest lynx?22:37
vishhumphreybc: actually wolter has the svg from my mockup he could add it himself too22:37
humphreybcI've got wolters svg22:38
humphreybcwhat's your email address22:38
humphreybci'll send it to you and you can pull the lynx off it22:38
humphreybcand stick it on yours22:38
vishdrkvi-a at yahoo dot com22:38
* dutchie ponders the best way to get wiki updates as they happen22:39
vishhumphreybc: send it.. its pretty late here... i'll get it done tomorrow22:39
vishok.. nite all22:39
* humphreybc ponders the title page proposals22:44
humphreybchere's trouble22:50
humphreybchi sebsebseb22:52
sebsebsebhumphreybc: Hi22:52
humphreybclol dutchie: just reading over the logs, wolter when did I say I wanted a bot for the channel? :P22:53
dutchieah well, we've got one now22:54
sebsebsebhumphreybc: we, meaning you as well, wanted it logged, but  we don't really need a bot that is like ubottu22:54
humphreybchaha yeah i meant a logbot, not a AI bot but i guess it's fun. and I never knew it could give you wiki updates etc, so it will be useful :)22:55
humphreybcplus how cool are we with our own bot22:55
dutchiewell, it will give wiki updates once I've written the plugin22:55
humphreybcnow I just need to work out how to become an OP for this chatroom so I can change the topic :P22:55
sebsebsebhumphreybc: AI bot?  I just joined, and not seen the log of today again.  anyway is that what  strubbl is?22:55
dutchie!hello | sebsebseb22:56
manualbotsebsebseb: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-manual! Feel free to ask questions and help people out. The channel guidelines are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines . Enjoy your stay!22:56
sebsebsebhumphreybc: oh now I see it22:56
sebsebsebok strubbl is a person then I expect22:56
sebsebsebhumphreybc: ok that's a copy of  ubottu it seems yeah22:56
humphreybchow can we customize that?22:56
humphreybcand maybe make it automatically greet people :)22:56
humphreybcsave us posting links etc22:57
dutchiegive me a chance22:57
humphreybcokay okay sorry22:57
sebsebsebpopey and jussi01  and jpds  people like that would know how to  customize it22:57
dutchiebut yes, very customisable22:57
dutchiehey, I'm running the thing22:57
sebsebsebdutchie: oh right ok22:58
strubblstrubbl==bot? never xD22:58
sebsebsebstrubbl: well that was the new name I saw in the list22:58
sebsebsebI saw one new name not two,  meaning  I wasn't looking properly it seems22:59
strubblah ok sebsebseb22:59
dutchieit nearly got called manuel, but that nick was taken :(22:59
sebsebsebdutchie: maybe Manualbot or  Manual-bot or something like that,  doesn't really matter though23:00
humphreybccall it gertrude23:00
dutchieit's registered and everything now, can't be bothered to change it23:00
dutchiesebsebseb: it's called manualbot...23:00
strubblcall it ingeborg23:00
humphreybcbumblebee? optimusprime?23:01
sebsebsebdutchie: yeah, but no capital at the begining,  I think that would look better, but doesn't really matter23:01
humphreybcif you called it bumblebee you'd have to configure it to play random radio stations from last.fm or something23:01
humphreybcsebsebseb: well considering practically everyone on IRC has their username as all lowercase, it makes sense that the manualbot is the same23:02
* humphreybc likes it how there are three bots in our channel23:02
sebsebsebhumphreybc: I don't know what MootBot does though23:03
sebsebsebsomething to do with meetings23:03
sebsebsebthat's all I know23:03
humphreybcmootbot handles meetings23:03
humphreybcgives you voting, topic options etc23:03
humphreybcso dutchie, i'm curious, how do you configure the bot?23:04
sebsebsebanyway oh ok, for manualbot starting with a lower case letter23:04
dutchieit's pretty much default supybot with the ubottu plugins atm23:05
humphreybcyeah i know nothing about bots on IRC23:05
humphreybcdo you configure scripts and upload them somewhere or is all configuration done with commands on irc in a PM with them?23:06
dutchiethere's a load of config and Python source sat on my VPS23:06
dutchiebut you can do a fair bit via PM23:06
sebsebsebhumphreybc: they get registered like a real person, and then they do whatever to them23:07
dutchiehmm, this wiki thing may not be as easy as all that23:07
sebsebsebhumphreybc: should mention logs in the topic really, and maybe IRC guidelines as well, since this is new an offical channel properly23:08
sebsebsebnow not new above23:08
humphreybci would like to change the topic but I can't because i'm not an OP23:10
humphreybci need to figure out how to make myself an OP23:10
sebsebsebhumphreybc: oh that's easy enough23:10
sebsebsebhumphreybc: also it does say that you set the topic23:10
humphreybcyeah i know, when i created the channel23:10
humphreybcbut when i logged off I lost my OP status23:10
humphreybcdo you know how to make myself an OP again?23:10
dutchiehumphreybc: /msg ChanServ op I think23:10
sebsebsebhumphreybc: yes23:10
dutchiesomething like that23:11
sebsebsebdutchie: nearly23:11
dutchiespecify the channel somewhere23:11
dutchieop #ubuntu-manual23:11
sebsebsebhumphreybc: when you do it this should work.  /chanserv op #ubuntu-manual23:11
humphreybcand can I set it to do it automatically when I join?23:11
sebsebsebhumphreybc: then /topic to change the topic and put in a new oen23:11
humphreybcdoesn't that mean anyone can become an OP? lol23:11
sebsebsebhumphreybc: and Freenode guidelines say people shoudn't show op all the time23:12
sebsebsebUbuntu channels are like that to23:12
=== humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual channel, discussion and help about the Ubuntu Manual Project | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs @ irclogs.ubuntu.com
sebsebsebonly do op stuff when you have a reason to23:12
dutchieonly becuase ubuntu channels are on freenode23:13
sebsebsebdutchie: well yeah23:13
humphreybcwhat's the justification for that rule?23:13
sebsebsebhumphreybc: then to not show op anymore /chanserv deop #ubuntu-manual23:13
sebsebsebhumphreybc: and well your on Pidgin not sure about that one, but  with Konversation for example,  you can become op and take op  graphically, as well as kick and ban23:14
humphreybcbut can't anyone become an OP?23:15
sebsebsebhumphreybc: no23:15
humphreybcso howcome I can become OP?23:15
sebsebsebThat's, because you started the channel23:15
dutchie/msg ChanServ #ubuntu-manual access gives the list of people who can23:15
sebsebseband registered it23:15
dutchieerm, swap that round23:15
sebsebsebhumphreybc: you cam make other people op as well23:16
dutchieand add list23:16
sebsebsebcan above23:16
sebsebsebhumphreybc: in the topic I would do an actsaul url for the logs23:16
sebsebsebso people can click on it and go there23:16
dutchiethat could be a pain, as they change daily23:17
sebsebsebhumphreybc: also you should put in the  guidelines link really23:17
* dutchie spies a job for the bot23:17
sebsebsebdutchie: no it links to  the main logs site23:17
sebsebsebthen people go on the logs they want to go on23:17
=== humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Manual channel, discussion and help about the Ubuntu Manual Project | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com
humphreybcyeah dutchie just a link to the main log site23:17
sebsebseband those are done by  day, month, and year23:17
sebsebsebhumphreybc: and the guidelines link, and the topic is fine  for now I think23:18
manualbotThe guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines23:18
manualbotThe Ubuntu Code of Conduct is a community etiquette document to which we ask all Ubuntu users to adhere, and can be found at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .  For information on how to electronically sign the CoC, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SigningCodeofConduct .23:18
dutchiebug 123:19
manualbotdutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)23:19
manualbotFactoid 'bug1' not found23:19
manualbotFor discussion on Microsoft software, or help with same, please visit ##windows. See http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1 http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm and /msg ubottu equivalents23:19
dutchienow that is annoying23:19
dutchieanything else we want the bot to do then?23:20
dutchiewiki  updates, might be able to do commits too23:20
sebsebseboh going a bit off topic here, then again Subunit's bug 1 is relevant   really for the manual in a way23:20
manualbotsebsebseb: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)23:20
sebsebsebuh  Subunit's  hmm  that spelling checking didn't work out23:20
sebsebsebKonversation has a nice  spelling checking feature23:21
sebsebsebspell check23:21
sebsebsebUbuntu's Bug 1  humphreybc ever seen that?23:21
* humphreybc adds feedback to the screenshot page23:21
manualbotFactoid 'love' not found23:22
sebsebseboh well, had a feeling that woudn't work since...23:22
manualbotLove is like racing across the frozen tundra on a snowmobile which flips over, trapping you underneath. At night, the ice-weasels come.23:22
humphreybclol sebsebseb yeah I have seen bug #123:22
dutchiestop saying bug 123:22
manualbothumphreybc: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)23:22
dutchieI said it23:23
manualbotdutchie: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1)23:23
humphreybcdutchie: could we have it pop up when someone pushes through a new revision?23:23
humphreybcor changes a blueprint? or files a new bug?23:23
sebsebsebdutchie: that used to work in #ubuntu and I have a feeling I know why  they removed it for that channel23:23
dutchiewell, we've got this:23:23
dutchie@svn 6623:24
dutchieI mean23:24
dutchiemanualbot: svn 6623:24
manualbotFactoid 'svn 66' not found23:24
manualbothttp://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/66 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 6623:24
sebsebsebhumphreybc: add the guidelines to the topic23:24
sebsebsebat the end23:24
humphreybcwhere are the guidelines?23:24
manualbotThe guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines23:25
manualbotFactoid 'guideliens' not found23:25
sebsebsebdutchie: so how to access the thing that shows who can do op here?23:25
humphreybcso what should i put at the end of the topic?23:25
dutchie/msg Chanserv access #ubuntu-manual list23:25
sebsebsebhumphreybc: Guidelines:  url23:26
humphreybcyeah what's the url23:26
dutchiehmm, another interesting plugin23:26
dutchiehang on a mo23:26
humphreybcdutchie how can I add you and jmburgess as OPs?23:26
humphreybcwait who are the admins on LP?23:26
humphreybcme, joe and dutchie right?23:27
sebsebsebhumphreybc: not sure if you should do the Code Of Conduct as well23:27
sebsebsebhumphreybc: that's a point23:27
sebsebsebI think anyone that you add as op to the channel23:27
sebsebsebhas to sign the code of conduct first realy23:27
dutchie/msg ChanServ access #ubuntu-manual add <nick> OP23:27
sebsebseband agree to it23:27
manualbotThe guidelines for using the Ubuntu channels can be found here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines23:27
manualbotThe Ubuntu Code of Conduct is a community etiquette document to which we ask all Ubuntu users to adhere, and can be found at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/ .  For information on how to electronically sign the CoC, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SigningCodeofConduct .23:27
dutchiehang on, just need to change a setting23:28
* humphreybc adds dutchie and jmburgess as OPs23:28
=== humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Manual channel, discussion and help about the Ubuntu Manual Project | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
humphreybcokay so jmburgess, dutchie and I are admins on LP and OPs in here23:29
sebsebsebhumphreybc: yes that's fine23:30
sebsebsebhumphreybc: however have you all signed the COC?23:30
* humphreybc should probably start work on his uni assignment23:30
humphreybcsebsebseb: I know I have23:31
sebsebsebdutchie and jmburgess have you?23:31
humphreybcdutchie has23:31
dutchiesigned the CoC? yes23:31
sebsebsebhumphreybc: Ubuntu Manual  discussion23:32
sebsebsebput that at the begining of the topic]23:32
sebsebsebinstead of that long message, that will be better23:32
sebsebsebor if you like,  Ubuntu Manual project discussion23:32
humphreybcUbuntu Manual Project discussion | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/23:33
sebsebsebhumphreybc: nearly23:33
=== humphreybc changed the topic of #ubuntu-manual to: Ubuntu Manual Project discussion | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual | Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual | IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com | Ubuntu Guidelines: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct/
humphreybcthat's good enough23:33
sebsebsebOne last topic change :D put  Discussion23:34
* humphreybc is interested to see that we have 5 ubuntu members in here23:34
dutchierev 6623:35
manualbothttp://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/66 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 6623:35
sebsebsebhumphreybc: yeah and ianto who probably will end up becoming one, since he is in charge of  the Welsh loco23:35
humphreybcdutchie: you look much younger than I thought you were!23:35
humphreybchow old are you?23:35
humphreybcfair enough23:36
humphreybchow old is joe?23:36
sebsebsebhumphreybc: Ubuntu  Manual Project Discussion23:36
iantoMembership is so over-rated23:36
humphreybcwould be fairly funny if the 3 leaders of this project were all under 2023:37
sebsebsebianto: this channel is publically logged now by the way23:37
humphreybcianto: ah but people listen to you on UF23:37
dutchie!info texlive23:37
manualbotdutchie: Error: 'supybot.plugins.PackageInfo.defaultRelease' is not set23:37
dutchieoh dear23:37
humphreybcalthough, I'm pretty sure there are a few members who shouldn't be members :S23:37
iantoOn UF?  What's that?23:38
sebsebsebianto: Ubuntu Forums I assume23:38
humphreybcyeah the forums23:38
dutchienote the realname on the bot ;)23:38
iantoHeh well nobdy listens to me and I'm a moderator on there23:39
sebsebsebianto: oh I didn't know that23:39
* dutchie hates fora anyway23:39
sebsebsebdutchie: fora?23:39
humphreybcianta: how did you become a mod?23:39
dutchieplural of forum23:39
dutchiehumphreybc: do a /whois23:39
humphreybcoh ianto = chris swift23:40
iantohumphreybc:  By having a subforum on there23:40
sebsebsebI have used Ubuntu since the second release in 2005 (Mandriva at the moment on here, 9.04 on other computer)  and I never signed up on the forum23:40
humphreybcianto: I requested a subforum for the manual but KiwiNZ never got back to me.23:40
sebsebsebor did I and forgot, no don't think so23:40
sebsebsebused another forum a bit when I was doing Fedora Core 2 and 4 before Ubuntu, or whatever23:41
dutchieI added a custom factoid too23:41
manualbotLaTeX quotes should be done like ``this'' or `this', not like "this" or 'this'23:41
humphreybcso what's the reasoning for the custom quotes?23:41
humphreybcso wait it's ``this''23:42
humphreybchowcome? just a random latex thing?23:42
dutchieif you use the latex-suite plugin for vim, it does that automatically23:42
dutchieyeah, it's just a latex thing23:42
dutchiethere is a reason for it, though I've forgotten it23:42
humphreybci'm using gedit lol23:42
humphreybcperhaps I should use a better text editor..23:43
dutchiegedit is a perfectly capable editor23:43
dutchiehmm, I wonder23:43
manualbotText Editors: gedit (GNOME), Kate (KDE), mousepad (Xfce4) - Terminal-based: nano, vi/vim, emacs - For HTML/CSS editors, see !html - For programming editors and IDE, see !code23:43
dutchieheh, manualbot only likes gedit23:44
manualbothtml is HyperText Markup Language, used to build web pages. WYSIWYG editors: KompoZer (was Nvu), Iceape Composer, Amaya - Development environments: Bluefish, Quanta+, Screem - For a howto on HTML coding, see: http://www.w3schools.com/23:44
manualbotFactoid 'ode' not found23:44
manualbotProgramming editors/suites: Terminal-based: vi/vim, emacs - KDE: Kate, KDevelop, Quanta+, Umbrello - GNOME: gvim, gedit, anjuta, pida, monodevelop, geany - Others: eclipse, netbeans, QtCreator23:44
humphreybcyay eclipse23:45
iantoWhy is there no nano? :p23:45
* humphreybc reluctantly starts work on his economics assignment23:46
* dutchie notes that no-one has started the epic reorganisation23:46
sebsebsebhumphreybc: /chanserv deop #ubuntu-manual unless your going to change the topic again of course23:48
dutchieooh, and the meeting notes23:48
dutchiehumphreybc: if you'd send me a link to the minutes, I'll write them up23:49
humphreybcmeeting notes..23:49
humphreybcjmburgess was going to do this23:49
humphreybcand stick em on the meeting page on the wiki23:50
* humphreybc realises he has the wrong freakin' stuff for his assignment and might have to venture out in the rain at some point to get the right stuff. damn it23:50
sebsebsebdutchie: should chanserv maybe guard this channel?  I think most Ubuntu channels if not all, bother with it?23:52
sebsebsebdon't bother with it above that was meant to be23:52
dutchiesebsebseb: you don't need chanserv in a channel to look after it23:53
sebsebsebdutchie: I thought it just keeps it open, if  no one is in the room23:54
sebsebsebdutchie: ?23:55
dutchieI'm not sure if the channel being registered is enough for that23:55
humphreybcyeah it is kept open23:55
humphreybcif no one is here23:55
sebsebsebchanserv does something though23:55
humphreybcbut there will always be someone here23:55
sebsebsebwell something could happen to the network in the future, and loads of people can't connect, or something like that, I guess23:56
dutchiewhat, a netsplit23:56
sebsebsebwell netsplits can kick everyone out of a channel yeah23:57
sebsebseband  then people can have issues with re joining as well23:57
sebsebsebplus computers aren't perfect, things can go wrong23:57
sebsebsebdutchie: anyway yeah I guess chanserv isn't needed23:58
sebsebsebto guard this channel23:58
humphreybcmeh i'm sure it'll be fine23:59
manualbotdutchie: Admin, Bantracker, Bugtracker, Channel, ChannelStats, Config, Encyclopedia, Misc, Owner, PackageInfo, RSS, Svn, and User23:59

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