[00:06] Kr0ntab: It's Saturday in half of the world now. Also this channel is now publically logged, so it's best to have it mainly on topic really. [00:07] hmm... oookay. I don't think it was that big a deal, but no sweat. [00:08] Kr0ntab: Yeah not a big deal I guess really, but still. Also this will be in the second log, since the logs seem to start and finnish using UK time. [00:09] Kr0ntab: Been doing anything for the project recently? [00:10] Just joined up yesterday... and working on some now. [00:10] ch 10... troubleshooting... [00:10] oh right yeah I was wondering what you were doing [00:11] gonna do some research on the forums and lp answers sites for recent/relevent questions... and add to the list I've been working on. [00:12] recent/relivent questions aye? [00:12] well that's daily in #ubuntu [00:13] hehe.. yeah... but there's many questions about particular apps... and that's not necisarily something I'd call Ubuntu specific issues. Gonna work towards pointing readers to process of elimination... and how to fix problems while avoiding common misteps. [00:15] Kr0ntab: ok well [00:15] Ubuntu Open Week stuff [00:15] now that should help you I think [00:16] some of that [00:17] Kr0ntab: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek [02:16] * humphreybc would like to tell everyone that there is now a logbot in here so our channel logs are available here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ [03:02] have a look at this bug here please everyone: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/504668 [03:03] and read what Ilya Haykinson has written about the chapter structure [03:04] Please consider it and jot some feedback down on the bug report, we will probably discuss this in the brief tonight. What Ilya is proposing is a complete chapter overhaul which will affect everyone and will change the manual dramatically. I want everyone to have a say in this matter. [03:08] Oh and if you're not aware of the brief, it'll start around 1100 UTC in this channel. It will be logged and I'll use MootBot to handle the meeting, just in case we need to vote on something. [03:22] humphreybc: some/all of us that were around, know about the logs already [03:22] humphreybc: check out the logs by the way, wolter wanted you etc [03:22] yeah i read them already [03:23] i might catch him tonight [03:24] thanks [03:26] np [03:26] humphreybc: is that meeting 11am or 11pm GMT/UTC ? [03:32] might want to add to the topic something for the logs [03:41] humphreybc: Interesting bug yeah, one that should be sorted out properly, so indeed good idea to have a meeting about it. Altough it seems I won't be taking part in the meeting, but that doesn't matter anyway, since I am not making the actsual manual, just providing a bit of feedback and that. [03:42] (well not really an interesting bug, but one that should be sorted out yes) [04:01] might even bee gtm+X [04:04] pererik87atyoutu: what's that? [04:05] it's 1100 UTC, 1100 is in 24 hour time [04:05] if it was 11pm it would be 2300 UTC, but it's not. [04:05] humphreybc: ah ha yes that's what I thought 11am GMT [04:06] humphreybc: by the way wolter is probably sleeping then since his time zone, but he is doing title/cover art anyway [04:06] do you know what he wanted to talk to me about? [04:06] no [04:06] if he comes in ask him to email me [04:06] i'll be at work today but back in time for the meeting [04:07] i'll leave my computer on and online so he can leave me a PM on IRC if he wants [04:07] anyway, time to cook dinner before I head off to work. talk to you later sebsebseb [04:07] humphreybc: you work on Saturday? and Sunday? [04:08] humphreybc: I might not be here when he next comes in [04:10] (I am thinking about time zones a little bit, and no you probably don't work on a Sunday) [04:18] gtm + x 11 gtm+1 = 12 [04:19] gtm [04:20] no :P 11 gtm+1 = 10 gtm [04:24] what's gtm? [04:47] * humphreybc works on a saturday [05:06] gmt :P [05:07] pererik87atyoutu: call it gmt instead of gtm then :D GMT/UTC [05:07] humphreybc: ok [05:16] argh, the meeting is at 3am my local time :) [06:36] hey guys [06:36] just checking in before i go on holiday [07:45] hey everyone [08:17] hi humphreybc [08:38] oh ok humphreybc I read the logs. sebsebseb told me to [08:39] Well, I wanted to check if you received the mail I sent to the list, about chapter 9 needing a transformation because we are writting too personal [08:39] humphreybc, we should be objective, and not subjective by saying "Oh, this application is awesome because it lets you do this fantastic stuff and such and such" [08:39] We should instead say like "With this application you can do this and that" [08:41] Also, hm.. I have nothing to say about the titlepage else than that I already pushed it in the branch (both mine and vish's) and so we just need somebody to write in the script to make the titlepage the titlepage. Plus, we need to setup some kind of votation some time to see which will be the titlepage, at least for now [08:42] Hmm, and yes.. I had to download texlive-extra or something like that.. still not the 567Mb package i thought I had to download in the beginning, but about 157 Mb [08:42] I could deal with that fine : [08:42] ) [08:44] And um... if you get that email that I sent to the list, please read and we'll have a talk about it maybe on monday at 100 utc? (i think thats 2000 for me) [08:44] Its that today (as of jan 9) is my birthday, so I will be having some friends coming over and taking my days away from me and from the manual, and possible on sunday too [08:45] I don't know well, but anyway, I might be on either on sunday or morning [08:45] monday sorry [08:49] The only thing you need to know is that I mostly hang out on IRC from 1300 to 200 in my time zone, which is in costa rica/central america, but no, it is utc-6 [08:49] or gmt-6, same thing i think [08:51] actually think i might have to reboot [08:51] So... probably you can do the math and calculate when I am going to be online. I can talk about it anytime. Also, the meeting, if it is at 1100 utc, then it will be at 500 here, not pleasant at all as that is probably the time when my sleep is the heaviest, so.. I will not be attending. Could we change the meeting time for the next event? I would like to :) Anyway, bye and.. I hope you had fun reading all my jabber [08:51] Good pererik87atyoutu [08:51] And bye [08:57] <\vish> humphreybc: if you hadnt noticed it... I updated the mockup on the wiki , keeping in mind Andrew's suggestions === \vish is now known as vish === IlyaHaykinson_ is now known as IlyaHaykinson [10:23] yo [10:23] back from work, how's everyone doin? [10:28] * humphreybc is reading over the comments on bug #504668 === ianto is now known as Guest9039 [10:58] alright it's that time again [10:58] who's here? [11:00] {raises hand}...me :) [11:00] haha, one, not a bad start :P [11:00] not like we have a lot to talk about anyway [11:01] Actually, this has been a busy week. I was going through my GMail folders and recapping all the work on the manual this past week [11:02] haha well yeah, the manual has had a tonne of progress [11:02] but everything is running fairly smoothly - apart from the TOC reorganization [11:02] we're well ahead of schedule [11:02] well i suppose we'll give another couple of minutes for anyone else [11:03] We've brought on more people to assist. I have one pending, if I can just get him to decide. He's still on the fence about joining the team. [11:03] Kr0ntab, vish, dutchie, jmburgess, IlyaHaykinson are you guys there? [11:03] yep we have had an extraordinary amount of new members thanks to the media attention [11:05] I'm working off of the Lucid distro on my machine this morning. Can you send the link with the bzr instructions so I can set up my sync folders? [11:05] sure [11:05] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help [11:06] alright i don't think many other people are here :O [11:07] oh well i suppose we can go ahead and start the meeting, even though there's hardly anyone in it :P [11:07] #startmeeting [11:07] Meeting started at 05:07. The chair is humphreybc. [11:07] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [11:07] okay, tacantara (or anyone) - have you got anything you'd like to raise? [11:08] * jmburgess is here [11:08] Nothing new to add. I was concerned about the issue of CLI, as voiced during the week, but I think that topic is sufficiently addressed now. [11:09] hey jmburgess [11:09] okay. well how do we think the manual is going? [11:09] on track for our first release? [11:09] Excellent! [11:09] As far as I can tell we are definitely I track [11:09] haha awesome, yep I totally agree. We're miles ahead of where I originally planned. Formatting and translations already in place this early is unbelievable [11:10] oh jmburgess how is image support going? [11:10] I have a few more formatting things I need to do, but people seem to really be writing, the issue is this new ToC rewrite [11:10] yeah I think that's all we have to discuss really [11:10] well [11:11] did you read the new bug comment I just added about 10 minutes ago? [11:11] humphreybc: I have been working on getting like warning,notes,code boxes working, so I haven't touched images yet, but they will work its not too bad [11:11] jmburgess: oh neat! [11:11] humphreybc: nope, I will go do that I just woke up (its 6:00am here) [11:11] haha damn sorry to wake you up so early [11:11] haha its fine [11:11] (Saturday is a pretty average day, btw) [11:11] :P [11:12] it's midnight here, just rolled over to sunday [11:12] anyway, yeah have a read of that comment [11:12] * jmburgess reads [11:12] tacantara: what chapter are you working on? [11:12] I'm not assigned any chapters. I'm on the edit team, proofreading and such. [11:13] ah okay gotcha [11:13] while we're waiting, maybe tacantara you can have a look at the title page proposals [11:13] and give us your feedback, preferably as a wiki comment on that page [11:14] alright, so I saw Wolter's comment and I don't like his naming because while it is cute and fun, it is not very useful sa to what the chapters do [11:14] That should be easy enough. I just got the folders downloaded via bzr [11:14] jmburgess: did you read the end of his comment? [11:15] As for your comment, I think 1-6 definitely should be beginner (from your list) [11:15] humphreybc: woops, didn't read the last sentence [11:15] hehe [11:15] and then 7-10 are in advanced, now do we want to add an advanced chapter on something new? [11:16] such as? [11:16] not sure still thinking [11:16] i mean if you want to sort of balance things out [11:16] well [11:16] i wasn't thinking of extra content [11:16] just changing the positions of the content [11:16] although Ilya had a good point about the "Getting online" chapter [11:16] we were sort of missing detail on that [11:16] you are probably right, this re-org is going to be pretty huge [11:17] yeah i know [11:17] but if we change it now we have to make sure it's right [11:17] correct, now we just need to change all the blueprints around [11:17] because we don't want to be farting around changing stuff all the time, especially now that more and more content is coming in [11:17] and what the hell happens with the translation rearrangement? [11:17] Also, we will need to contact a few of the authors cause some of these things are getting combined [11:18] yeah well when we decide on something i'll email the mailing list [11:18] yea [11:18] but translations are going to be screwed [11:18] hmmmmm I don't know enough about how the translations work, but yeah the template stuff is going to be all kinds of messed up [11:18] I mean the strings are the same, just in different places [11:18] ya [11:19] well we haven't decided on the new arrangement yet [11:19] correct, but [11:19] we do need a change [11:19] I think if we do we need to lock it in [11:19] precisely [11:19] so we need to make a wise decision here [11:19] no point rushing in and then realising we need to change it in two weeks again [11:20] with only 2 people [11:20] lol yea [11:20] do we need to call a meeting for this? [11:20] or do you think we can handle it on the bug report and mailing list [11:20] right so do you want to just go chapter by chapter and list what should be in it now, or have a new meeting [11:20] you beat me to it [11:20] ummmm [11:20] haha [11:20] meetings are proving difficult [11:21] I feel like we won't be able to get enough people [11:21] we have this huge discrepancy in time [11:21] and I don't want any more content to be written in the wrong place [11:21] yeah, so maybe bug report for now. we should be able to come to a conclusion on that [11:21] well it's going to be a pain to change it, regardless of how much content we have. It'll just be a bit more to copy and paste, no? [11:22] right, do we want to go chapter by chapter now and just figure out what will need to get combined/moved if we go with the list you give on the latest comment [11:22] right, but its still more stuff [11:22] you mean here in the meeting? [11:22] or on the chapter blueprints [11:22] what do you think of my proposal on the latest comment? [11:22] yeah and then just post it to the bug, and make sure everyone is ok with it [11:23] sure. we should make everyone read this log. [11:23] :) [11:23] haha [11:23] but yeah I think your latest comment make sense [11:23] alright [11:24] well we have to make sure we check all the boxes. We can't release the manual with a whole section on something missing that we've all forgotten. and i'm not a superhuman so i'm not sure if i've got everything in my proposal [11:24] okay so we'll go over the chapters now i think. and I'll summarize in a new bug comment [11:24] (and advise they read the logs) [11:24] tacantara: feel free to join in and have your say [11:25] wait hold on do you have a chapter on important ubuntu apps such as ryhtmbox, etc.. [11:25] no I took out the chapter Ilya proposed about going through every default app [11:25] Just looked at title page, found it to be very professional. We're definitely putting a good first image out there. [11:25] I figured we can include the IMPORTANT ones under chapter 2 [11:25] Ok well we need to say that, cause we can't forget things like rhythm box [11:26] so a section/subsection to chapter 2 can very briefly touch on stuff like ryhthmbox, firefox, openoffice, F-Spot etc [11:26] well note firefox, that is ch. 3 [11:26] but yes [11:26] yeah but do we need to teach people how to use these apps? i mean we have to stick to our niche here, and we don't want to make it an all encompassing manual [11:26] I think we need a paragraph on it [11:26] a paragraph on each? [11:26] not on every app just like [11:27] openoffice [11:27] fspot [11:27] but how much detail? "Press play to play your music. Press Pause to pause your music" [11:27] Good point. Talking about Rhythmbox can become a very detailed area, if you go into iPod syncing (another noob concern) [11:27] rhythmbox [11:27] okay [11:27] why don't we say "Open Rhythmbox to manage your music, or buy more music from the Ubuntu One Music Store"? [11:27] No I mean like Rhytmbox is an excellent media player here is how to import your music and here is a screenshot, and here is the wiki link to mor info [11:27] so more like a paragraph: "Use Rhythmbox to listen to your music, sync with your portable media player. Use F-Spot to manage and edit photos" etc [11:27] yeah, something like that [11:28] hello dutchie [11:28] so they know which app to use for what [11:28] nice of you to join us :) [11:28] morning [11:28] just enough to like get them started so they can play with it [11:28] only just got up [11:28] although the install slideshow gives some detail on which app to use for what [11:28] and the menu is split into categories. how hard can it be? :P [11:28] okay fair enough [11:28] hey dutchie, since you know about translations do you know if everything will be messed up if we do all this chapter rearranging? [11:29] don't think so [11:29] yeah I think a simple paragraph to help them import stuff, and then a link to the wiki page is good enough [11:29] alright so let's go back to the beginning. Prologue and About Ubuntu: basically includes chapter 1 and chapter 2 as they are now. nothing extra. right? [11:29] it should keep all the translations that have already been done if I understand it correctly [11:29] dutchie: let's hope so [11:29] humphreybc: correct [11:29] oh does someone want to jot down notes on each chapter? [11:30] (for the bug comment) [11:30] So Ch 1 & 2 => prolgouge [11:30] im doin it [11:30] awesome xD [11:30] alright chapter 1 of the new ToC is chapter 3 of the old ToC [11:30] okay installation, basically chapter 3. sections underneath it include what's already in chapter 3, live CD, partitioning etc. Although - "What version to choose" should go to chapter 10. We need to assume they've already got Ubuntu if they're reading this. [11:31] well almost, with some exceptions like i said above [11:31] right [11:31] happy with that everyone? [11:31] very good [11:31] That works [11:31] info on the LiveCD and a detailed step by step install guide. Easy. [11:32] So that's chapter 1 of the new ToC. Chapter 2 is going to have a lot of sections. [11:32] Chapter 2 is the gnome environment part of ch. 4, plus information on some basic applications [11:32] and I propose we rename it to something with GNOME in it [11:33] because, well, it is GNOME. [11:33] and those applications are rhytnbox, opeoffice, fspot, tomboy?, anything else? [11:33] firefox [11:33] I think it should be introduction to Ubuntu because we are going to cover a few apps [11:33] uhm... what else comes default... nautilus? [11:33] oh true [11:33] dutchie: firefox will be in ch. 3 (internet) [11:33] might be worth mentioning chromium if that's going to be the default browser in UNR [11:33] yeah forgot about that [11:33] dutchie: Is it really? [11:34] ugh [11:34] Ubuntu One will merit at least a paragraph [11:34] correct [11:34] Empathy is a default app [11:34] dutchie: hmm.... we don't want to go talking about different distros here. as far as I'm concerned UNR is a different distro to Ubuntu [11:34] oh yeah empathy [11:34] goes in the internet section [11:34] I was about to say that [11:34] so Rythmbox, OpenOffice, Tomboy, F-Spot, Empathy and Ubuntu One. Firefox is going to the internet chapter. [11:34] oh [11:34] yeah [11:34] okay so empathy in the internet chapter too [11:35] sounds good [11:35] PiTiVi? [11:35] oh shite [11:35] yeah Pitivi [11:35] and nautilus [11:35] darn [11:35] How about Brasero and Movie Player? [11:35] crap [11:35] too many default apps! [11:35] there's quite a lot :) [11:35] darn you ubuntu for being so good! [11:36] Pitivi I feel like is out of the scope of this manual [11:36] I don't think we need to cover them all [11:36] hmm [11:36] core 5? [11:36] like we can say, browse around the menus to see other apps [11:36] just things used in sort of day-to-day running [11:36] maybe not even F-Spot [11:36] photos, videos, music, navigation [11:36] and then internet in the other chapter [11:36] we could have a "Multimedia" chapter [11:37] well, section under chapter 2 of the new ToC [11:37] although [11:37] it does kinda warrant it's own chapter [11:37] maybe we need 11 chapters [11:37] or even turn 10 into an "afterthought" or something [11:37] especially if we start mentioning codecs and whatnot [11:37] a "postlogue" :P [11:37] epilogue [11:37] okay there you go [11:38] probably appendix [11:38] Do we want a media chapter that contains rhytmbox, f-spot, pitivi [11:38] don't forget we've still got the credits and glossary to pile on here [11:38] a internet chapter that has evolution, firefox, empathy [11:38] If we subsection Chapter 2 to cover default apps, it'd be logical to follow the format of the Applications menu, perhaps pointing out key apps only [11:38] well we're talking so many default apps here they might warrant their own chapter [11:38] at least for the multimedia ones [11:38] I'm not sure if "OMG, it's got 15 chapters" is a valid concern [11:39] people are more likely to look at the page count IMO [11:39] Why don't we have an Apps chapter insted of just inernet apps, and talk about all the keys apps [11:39] like we don't need a tutorial on firefox or on evolution [11:39] so Applications after chapter 2 [11:39] make it chapter 3 [11:39] we just need a paragraph, screenshot and a link to the wiki page [11:39] push everything down a number, make chapter 10 an epilogue. or even just chapter 11. [11:39] so wait [11:39] Ch 2 is titled..... [11:39] but then we're talking about applications twice in the manual... but i suppose they're important..... ;) [11:40] im sorry im confused [11:40] that's something to avoid I think humphreybc [11:40] * humphreybc wonders if other project meetings go for so long [11:40] um [11:40] * jmburgess hopes they wont [11:40] hmm [11:40] well [11:40] we have a problem [11:41] Do we talk about the core apps AND extra apps later on [11:41] do we only talk about core apps [11:41] and not mention extra apps at all? [11:41] I think core apps only [11:41] core apps only [11:41] or do we not talk about core apps and just let them freestyle [11:41] we should *mention* core apps [11:41] how about we don't talk about core apps, but include that list of extra apps as a list. [11:41] Why don't we have a getting around Ubuntu chapter which covers nautilus stuff, and gnome stuff [11:41] I think it'd be worthwhile to discuss the core apps, to the extent that we say "here they are." [11:41] wait [11:41] we don't talk about extra apps *** [11:42] well core apps are more important to a newbie than extra ones, right? [11:42] and then have a Applications chapter and say a little paragraph or two about them [11:42] so they should have a higher priority [11:42] i think Ch. 3 should just be titled Applications [11:42] we could direct them to the B-Sides project for extra apps [11:42] dutchie true [11:42] From a noob perspective, the extra apps come in as a need is discovered (i.e. how can I scan this document) [11:42] although, why don't we just include that list simply as a list [11:42] in chapter 10 [11:43] hang on, how does the proposed ToC look now? [11:43] the extra apps list.. cheese etc [11:43] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/504668 [11:43] last comment by me [11:43] OK, thakns [11:44] I think Ch. 3 should not be internet it should be applications [11:44] so we rename "Internet, Emails and IM" to "Applications" and include info on about 8 default apps. [11:44] correct [11:44] is there a reason there is no chapter 9 in that list? [11:44] and then "Extra Applications" becomes just a simple bullet point list that we recommend, instead of a summary/feature list and screenshot (as chapter 9 stands now) [11:44] dutchie: ^^ [11:44] correct [11:45] just to give the readers an idea about good software [11:45] instead of having to google "top 10 ubuntu apps" or something' [11:45] or trial and error install every single music player to find a decent one [11:45] (and there are a LOT of music players in the repos) [11:46] okay cool Joe are you getting all this down? [11:46] well not all this [11:46] but the important bits on each chapter and what it includes [11:46] yeah [11:46] so the 8 apps are [11:46] openoffice [11:46] rhythmbox [11:46] tomboy [11:46] f-spot [11:46] empathy [11:46] evolution [11:46] firefox [11:46] and... [11:46] and.... nautlius [11:47] nautilus* [11:47] i thought naitulus would be in getting around ubuntu [11:47] oh okay [11:47] well [11:47] in that case... move player? [11:47] cause nautilus doesn't look like a seperate app [11:47] (totem) [11:47] how about 7 apps then [11:47] sounds good [11:47] movie player is higher priority than pitivi - people will want to watch movies before they want to edit them [11:48] ok then I will include totem [11:48] so either 7 or 8 if we include movie player [11:48] ok swet [11:48] sweet* [11:48] do any of the current chapters overlap with this chapter [11:48] now chapter 4, "Settings and external devices" [11:48] i don't think so [11:48] alright [11:48] chaper 4 [11:48] we don't have synaptic, software center, or terminal in our list of apps [11:48] you guys talk about that for a sec while i pop off to the loo [11:49] humphreybc: those go in 5 [11:49] chapter 4 should include [11:49] setting up a printer [11:50] configuring display [11:50] appearance [11:50] theming [11:50] Refresh my memory please....is the subject of "Ubuntu Restricted Extras" touched on in Chapter 3? That's a useful bit for Firefox (flash) and the media players [11:50] screensaver/wallpaper [11:50] desktop effects? [11:50]