/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/01/10/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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jussi01o/19:08
TheMusoAnd so far, looks like we won't have enough for a meeting.19:09
* TheMuso reads the agenda.19:09
jussi01 got a link to that?19:09
knomehey jussi0119:09
knomewhat meeting is this?19:09
knome;)=19:09
jussi01ubuntu studio19:09
TheMusojussi01: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2010Jan1019:09
knomeokay19:09
jussi01TheMuso: who are we waiting on?19:11
TheMusojussi01: stochastic I think, since he sent out eh reminder etc. I don't remember him saing that he couldn't make it.19:12
TheMusoAnd if luisbg is around, it would be great to have him along also.19:12
jussi01yea19:13
* jussi01 has pinged them, so hopefully they arrive soon19:13
=== Mamarok_ is now known as Mamarok
TheMusoWell I think this is a no go.19:24
TheMusoc19:24
ScottLanyone here for ubuntu studio meeting?19:40
knomeScottL, they decided not to keep it (jussi01+TheMuso)19:41
ScottLknome, thanks19:41
knomenp. have a nice day!19:41
raevolhello all19:58
SiDiHi19:58
j1mchi SiDi and raevol19:58
lmnHi :)19:59
* charlie-tca waves19:59
j1mcready to start the meeting?20:00
lmnAye20:00
knomesure20:00
j1mcany ubuntu meeting bot experts here?20:00
knomewho's gonna be the chair?20:00
j1mccody-somerville: you ready?20:00
SiDiknome: you will :D20:00
knomeSiDi, gah20:00
knomedon't want to20:00
lmnI also nominate knome.20:00
knome!help20:01
ubottuPlease don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)20:01
knomemeh20:01
czajkowski/c/c20:01
charlie-tcaWell, that worked20:01
* knome has to check out the bot stuff.20:01
knomejust a moment20:02
knomemake yourself comfortable20:02
j1mclet's get started w/ taking about governance.  knome - if cody only has 10 minutes, we should get started w/o the meeting bot.20:02
j1mcwe'll get the logs20:02
knomeand please fill the other chairs from the beginning20:02
knome#startmeeting20:02
MootBotMeeting started at 14:02. The chair is knome.20:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]20:02
knome[TOPIC] Xubuntu Governance20:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Xubuntu Governance20:02
j1mchere's the wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu%20Governance%20&%20Team%20Structure20:03
knome[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu%20Governance%20&%20Team%20Structure20:04
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/StrategyDocument#Xubuntu%20Governance%20&%20Team%20Structure20:04
j1mcdid anyone have any comments based on reading it?20:04
lmnOther than agreement?20:04
j1mclmn: correct20:05
cody-somervilleReading it again... do we need to even change it?20:05
lmnThen no.20:05
cody-somervilleIt seems to be provide the necessary authority to form a council already.20:05
knomecody-somerville, i think we only need to append/modify the council part of ir20:05
knome*it20:05
cody-somervilleknome, ^^20:05
j1mcwell, depending on what approach we take (team lead vs. council approach) certain items would need to be changed20:05
j1mcfor example, "The Xubuntu council is a small group of people who have been designated as "movers and shakers" by the Xubuntu project lead"20:06
j1mci would lthink that this would need to be changed to something like, "xubuntu contributors and xubuntu developers"20:06
SiDiI agree w/ what's there20:06
lmnSiDi: Yes, but j1mc's point is right - the point is to be without a "lead" - correct?20:06
knomewell personally i think that even if we had a leader, we should move a bit towards less-authoritarian leader.20:06
cody-somervilleI don't think we have that now.20:07
cody-somervilleMaybe the leader should take more of a back seat though.20:07
SiDiI think a lead is needed only when two people definitely disagree and begin to misbehave20:07
lmnknome: You mean a face without veto power?20:07
knomecody-somerville, that's what i meant20:07
SiDiand this can be the role of the ubuntu community council20:07
cody-somervilleMaybe mr_pouit will provide that?20:07
j1mcis mr_pouit willing to be project lead for lucid?20:07
cody-somervilleWhat I really want to avoid is voting20:07
cody-somervillej1mc, yes20:08
cody-somervilleInstead, I think consensus is much more favorable to voting.20:08
knomeSiDi, even if it's two people disagree, i don't know if it's directly a place for the leader. if we have the council, the council can/should sort stuff out, if possible20:08
mr_pouitaren't people supposed to accept the decisions of the council? ;)20:08
j1mccody-somerville: he confirmed that in #xubuntu-devel?20:08
SiDii think we need leads per field of expertise, and decisions that affect several fields or that affect the overall direction of xubuntu should be decided by all the team leads20:08
lmnmr_pouit: That would be my understanding..20:08
lmnMajority rules, aye?20:08
cody-somervilleNo, majority doesn't rule20:08
knomecody-somerville, finding a consensus is kind of voting anyway20:08
cody-somervilleUbuntu has never been like this20:08
lmnWhen it comes to council it should.20:08
cody-somervilleknome, voting is binary, yes or no. Consensus not so much.20:08
cody-somervilleknome, there can be varying levels of consensus20:09
SiDiknome: consensus is implicit and means issues got sorted out, vote is explicit and means some issues are being disregarded  because people want to force a consensus20:09
cody-somervilleI also disagree that "experts" should have full control of their area20:09
lmnWell, 9 times out of 10 something is either right or wrong and should be addressed as such..20:09
knomeconsensus doesn't mean no issues are disregarded.20:09
j1mci think that people should be consulted before their "area" is changed by others, though.20:10
cody-somervilleI think the people doing the work should have the authority to make decisions20:10
cody-somerville(except for artwork :P)20:10
knomecody-somerville, not full control, but if you want to think in binary, i think the expert should have more power than 1.20:10
SiDicody-somerville: :P20:10
knomecody-somerville, i quit.20:10
cody-somervillewho decides who experts are?20:10
knome:P20:10
SiDiknome: what is more than 1 in binary?20:10
SiDi10?20:10
cody-somervilleknome, lots of artwork people willing to contribute ::P20:11
knomecody-somerville, aren't that decided when team leaders are appointed20:11
cody-somervilleAnyhow, thats all I wanted to say20:11
SiDicody-somerville: by expert i mean people who have the most background on contributing to xubuntu in this field20:11
lmnknome: But wouldn't that introduce more complexity than needed? That concept is used in the Democratic party in America with "super delegates".20:11
knomecody-somerville, well, i haven't seen anybody ACTING yet.20:11
SiDisorry for that word, it was badly chosen20:11
cody-somervilleknome, agreed. which is why I tolerate you :P20:11
* cody-somerville nudges knome 20:11
cody-somervillejust joking, love you Pasi20:11
* knome farts20:11
knome:P20:11
cody-somervilleAnyhow, I must be going now.20:11
j1mcheh20:11
knomesure. i love you too20:11
SiDilmn: I dont think we need to use the same systems as political parties :P20:11
knomesee you cody-somerville20:12
j1mccody-somerville: have a good afternoon20:12
lmnSo would the system be if you're an "expert" that you automatically get 2 votes?20:12
knomelmn, no.20:12
j1mcthanks for making the time to be here20:12
lmnThen how are we going to weight the opinion of an "expert"?20:12
SiDiThere is no such thing as vote20:12
cody-somerville(experts are recognized w/o appointment)20:12
j1mcmr_pouit: did you confirm that you'd be willing to be project lead for lucid?20:12
cody-somerville(they are experts because they just are)20:12
knomebut if we are talking about about documentation, for example, i think jim's voice should weigh more that, for example, mine.20:12
SiDiI think there is no need to weight opinions as long as everyone involved is conscious that some people may be more likely to take the good decision in a given field20:13
charlie-tcabut who decides who the expert is?20:13
cody-somervillecharlie-tca, each individual person20:13
* lmn agrees with charlie20:13
mr_pouitj1mc: yes, if there's no other choice, I can do it until the council is fully functional20:13
knomeexpert is probably a wrong word.20:13
* cody-somerville is gone.20:13
Sysidon't opinions weight themselfs trough people?20:13
knomejim leads the doc team. so he is responsible for getting good results on the doc front.20:13
j1mci think we're a small enough group to know who the recognized "subject matter experts" are without formalizing what qualifies as an "expert."20:13
SiDicharlie-tca: i think we can each think on our own who we consider to be experts in their fields20:14
j1mcperhaps with the exception of artwork20:14
lmnIt's becoming very clear we didn't discuss this well enough on the mailing list..20:14
cody-somervillehehe20:14
SiDiknome: expert is a wrong word. I use it for lack of a better one in my vocabulary :D20:14
knomej1mc, ugh? was there some kind of pn intended once again? :P20:14
j1mcSiDi: "team-lead"?20:14
knomei hate to talk about artwork all the time, BUT20:14
j1mci don't want us to get bogged-down with semantics20:15
raevolcan i ask a noob question? what does "artwork" consist of?20:15
Sysipeople agree with people that they consider as experts, so they don't expecially need to have more weighed vote20:15
j1mcthe important thing (to me) is that people's voices are heard with regard to important xubuntu-related decisions20:15
knomeif i am the marketing (+artwork) lead, i suppose it does make a difference if i disagree with somebody20:15
SiDiraevol: it consists of the look and feel of Xubuntu and its marketing materials20:15
lmnraevol: Basically anything that's themeable.20:15
j1mcin cases of disagreement, we need to be able to sort things out in a way that doesn't bog down the distribution20:15
knomeartwork is always subjective to taste, and we have to take SOME path.20:15
raevolis it a short list of things? desktop/gdm/bootsplash/window manager/gtk? or a lot more?20:16
lmnknome: Yeah, I wanted to talk with you about some artwork *ducks*20:16
knomein the past i haven't proposed anything totally silly (except for laughs)20:16
* SiDi proposes artwork specific discussions occur after the governance topic20:16
j1mcraevol: knome lmn ... can we sort out the governance stuff first?20:16
knomei remember a few situations where me and cody disagreed on some silly things20:16
raevolsorry20:16
lmnj1mc: Absolutely.20:16
knome(j1mc, i'm getting to that)20:16
j1mcknome: ok - if you need to talk about artwork to express a gov. issue... :)20:17
j1mcgo ahead.  :)20:17
knomeso in these situations, shouldn't my opinion weigh more? especially if the rest of the dev community agrees with me?20:17
knomewhy should the project leader have a VETO vote in a situation like this?20:17
knome"well i don't like that, let's throw it in the bin"20:18
j1mcknome: i agree.  how do we sort out such issues?20:18
j1mcperhaps... if project lead and other team member disagree...20:18
knomewell if in the new governance we have the council20:18
lmnWell, a majority of the council should be able to over-ride a veto.20:18
j1mcit comes out to the xubuntu [insert group name here] for a vote?20:18
knomemaybe we should find a consensus between the members20:18
knomenot just asking the leaders opinion and blindly go forward with that20:18
j1mcs/vote/consensus20:19
lmnThe council should have checks and balances so that no one branch is more powerful than any other.20:19
lmnE.g. leaders and etc.20:19
Sysitoo much byrocracy kills all development20:19
lmnYes but not enough kills creativity.20:19
knomeSysi, a veto possibility kills everything.20:20
Sysitrue20:20
SiDiWould it be reasonable to say that when there is a disagreement that can't be solved on a particular issue, a vote occurs, and voters are the council + the regular members of the team responsible of the feature/field on which the disagreement occurs?20:20
knome[AGREED] Lionel will act as a temporary project leader until a council is formed.20:20
MootBotAGREED received:  Lionel will act as a temporary project leader until a council is formed.20:20
lmnSiDi: Exactly my thoughts.20:20
SiDi(with a max weight for the votes of the regular members to avoid them to outnumber the council)20:20
mr_pouitA council of ~5 people shouldn't kill anything, if people don't ask for it to decide something every hour.20:20
knomemr_pouit, i definitely do not want everything go through the council20:21
mr_pouitclearly20:21
lmnmr_pouit: Well the point is a person of 1 shouldn't be able to kill something without any way to repeal.20:21
knomethere has been numerous of decisions in the two last cycles which are done without too much bureaucracy and i think that's totally fine20:21
charlie-tcaSidi hit it right on the head20:21
lmnAgreed.20:22
cody-somervillelmn, The community council is the elevation20:22
Sysii just meant that in some point needs to make decisions20:22
j1mcSiDi: could you explain what you mean with "with a max weight..."20:22
cody-somervilleSiDi, ^^20:22
cody-somervilleThats just all way to complicated SiDi20:22
lmnIs it?20:22
cody-somervilleYes it is20:22
cody-somervilleWe escalate to CC if we're not happy with Xubuntu council/project lead decision.20:23
cody-somervilleand if that happens, you better have a good reason if you don't want to look foolish in front of them.20:23
SiDiHm, okey20:23
raevolthe council could exist to make decisions on issues that are causing disagreement? if there's no disagreement there's no need to put it by the council?20:23
raevolerr, yea what was just said20:23
knomecody-somerville, so basically, if the disagreement was about a silly thing, the leader could overrule any developer anyway?20:23
mr_pouit(unless it's on a technical matter, where the cc is useless)20:23
lmnmr_pouit: Agreed.20:23
cody-somervilleIn that case, we go to TB: )20:24
SiDij1mc: meant that for instance the team members' vote counts for 25% of the final vote, or something like that, to make sure the decision belongs to the council, but the team members still have a word to say when it comes to something they work on20:24
cody-somervilleknome, if you can build up a case that the leader does that often, that wouldn't be a silly problem20:24
cody-somervilleIt would be a huge problem20:24
cody-somervilleIt would be a clear case of micro management20:24
* cody-somerville is gone again.20:24
* charlie-tca agrees20:24
* lmn also agrees20:24
knomeagree as well.20:25
charlie-tcaany micro manager as team leader should wind up in front of the cc20:25
knomemaybe we should talk about what the team EXPECTS from the team leaders20:25
lmnThat's a good question.20:26
knomeif i'm the marketing lead, do people expect me to handle and lead marketing and make some decisions and manage a big picture of it?20:26
knomeor just produce marketing material?20:26
lmnknome: I'd say at least be the "idea man".20:26
j1mcto do work, to provide direction for their portion of the project, to recruit and assist others who contribute to the project20:26
lmnWhat's the point in being a team lead if you're not going to have a strong idea for where you want to be and go.20:27
lmnIt seems j1mc and I are on the same page with this.20:27
knomej1mc, okay, so doesn't the team leader have a bigger weight about his own area, if he is supposed to direct the team?20:27
j1mci would say yes, unless you want me directing artwork.  ... of course what you suggest makes sense. :)20:27
knomej1mc, how can anybody direct a team if his decisions are not appreciated or they are overruled by project leader?20:28
mr_pouit(you can say that he has more experience on his topic, so it's easier to convince other people ;)20:28
mr_pouit(he/she, of course)20:28
j1mcin what cases should a project leader be able to overrule the team leader?20:28
knomethis also concerns the documentation team and i'm so happy you, jim, are taking care of it, even if somebody might disagree.20:28
j1mcor in what cases should the project leader be able to overrule the team leader?20:29
j1mcthat's what i meant to ask.20:29
SiDij1mc: i'd say exclusvely when the majority of the council disagrees with the team lead, and when the people in the team also disagree with each other20:29
knomeCOMPACTLY: i know you know better.20:29
lmnj1mc: I'd say the project leader should organize a vote at that point, if it's necessary.20:29
SiDiie. when the team leads acts on his/her own w/ nobody agreeing20:29
charlie-tcaIf the team leader is not the one to make the final decision on what's best for a team, what is he?20:29
lmnAn organizer, basically.20:29
knomecharlie-tca, well aren't we suggesting a governance with a council20:29
knomefirst go to council20:30
knomeif council can't have consensus even what they do, ask the leader20:30
lmnThe project leader should be the one managing the way things move, not deciding how they move, if that makes sense.20:30
knomeif one guy disagrees in the council (even if he was the project leader) i don't think it should "break" the thing at that point.20:30
knomethe council would probably find a consensus by theirselves if only one disagrees.20:31
knomeif they really can't find a consensus, then i think the project leader definitely should have his voice heard.20:32
knomeand in the end, make the decision20:32
cody-somervilleThe project leader isn't a project manager20:32
cody-somervillealso, if there is a council, I feel the project leader should sit on it20:32
knomecody-somerville, of course20:32
cody-somervilleand maybe even be the chairman (ie. tie breaker)20:32
* j1mc agrees20:32
lmnI'll agree with that.20:33
* j1mc agrees w/ the sitting on the council part20:33
* charlie-tca agrees too20:33
knomecody-somerville, exactly. but in a non-tie situation he should just be one of the members.20:33
j1mctiebreaker, too20:33
cody-somervilleknome, agreed.20:33
knomei don't see we are going to have a lot of need for tie-breakers, really20:33
charlie-tcajust a member or a non-voting member except in ties20:33
SiDiI think the tiebreaker should be the most relevant team lead for the thing involved20:33
knomeeven if we have disagreed, it's mostly being either me or you (cody) disagreeing the rest ;)20:34
lmnknome: Failsafes are rarely used, but when they are, you're glad they're there.20:34
* cody-somerville is gone again.20:34
knomemaybe the team leader and the project leader should be the tiebreakers.20:34
knomeand if they disagree, project leader is the tiebreaker.20:34
knomewhat do you think of that?20:34
cody-somervilleLets get rid of team leaders20:34
charlie-tcacan't have two tiebreakers. That creates more issues.20:35
cody-somervillelet the teams organize themselves20:35
cody-somervillejust an idea20:35
* cody-somerville is really gone now.20:35
knomecody-somerville, tbh, the teams usually consist of one or two people20:35
knomecody-somerville, the marketing+artwork team is knome.20:35
knomeatm20:35
lmnWell, knome - as I've mentioned on the mailing list I have wordpress experience..20:35
lmnjust throwing that out there20:36
knomelmn, yes.20:36
SiDiknome: eeew, evil you20:36
SiDii'm in the art team20:36
knomebut in the past, even if there were people interested in contributing20:36
SiDiand im not a knome20:36
knomethey rarely have contributed20:36
knomeSiDi, yes you are. just generalizing :P20:36
knomeso that leaves me still being on my own in the marketing team20:37
SiDiI agree that we could trash the team leaders. But then we need to ensure each team is represented by at least a council member20:37
j1mcSiDi: that makes sense20:37
j1mcassuming we don't have 12 teams20:37
charlie-tcayup20:37
knomewhat about my suggestion in cutting the teams down to four?20:37
charlie-tcaCouncil gets much bigger than about 5 for us, we are in trouble20:38
j1mccharlie-tca: i agree20:38
SiDij1mc: a council member could be in several teams20:38
j1mcyes20:38
SiDiand the creation of new teams would require agreement of the council + dedication of a member20:38
knomehttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2009-December/007225.html20:39
knomecharlie-tca, won't get bigger than 5. we barely have more contributors than five >:|20:39
j1mcin the current structure, there's contributors, documentors (which includes the website group... which i don't often think about), developers, council & project lead20:40
knomeno, there's no council20:40
knomeit's in the strategy document, but none has been formed yet.20:40
j1mcit's in the current governance doc20:40
knomethe council is project leader.20:40
knomeas for now.20:40
j1mcok20:40
SiDiI think we can leave to Council, Contributors, Users20:40
knomewe DO have a core developer group20:41
knomeor contributor, to be more exact20:41
charlie-tcayes, and developers should be involved20:41
knomecharlie-tca, developers are contributors.20:41
knomeif we split contributors into contributors and developers, that somewhat makes me feel that the people working with code are somewhat more important than the ones doing documentation or qa.20:42
j1mcdevelopers and contributors should be part of the council... with the aim (but not requirement?) of having the council made up of "core functional areas" of the project... ?20:42
SiDii agree to have a single group for devs + contributors20:42
knomewhich they kind of are, but should not be in the governance thing20:43
SiDiespecially considering that the majority of the work is not related to code in Xubuntu20:43
charlie-tcawithout the developers, you have nothing20:43
SiDicharlie-tca: and the developers are the GNOME + XFCE + Ubuntu + Kernel + Xorg + w/e ones20:43
j1mcknome: i think it may draw in more "developers" if we have a separate group... a mkting tool?20:43
knomecharlie-tca, that's true. but really, a QA guy is not less important when it comes down to governance.20:43
SiDiWho writes code in Xubuntu? Cody, Lionel and I write patches, thats all20:43
knomej1mc, i think that has worked against us, really20:43
SiDi+1 knome20:44
knomej1mc, (having a separate dev group)20:44
lmnSiDi: How many patches and repackaging usually go into a single release?20:44
charlie-tcaI agree. Developers are the only group that is required by the distribution20:44
SiDicharlie-tca: your opinion, the one of knome and j1mc, the one of vincent, and anyone willing to seriously contribute weights just as much as the one of those whow rite the code20:44
SiDilmn: cant say, i've only worked on a single release cycle20:44
knomecharlie-tca, ^ +1 billion for SiDi20:44
SiDibut i wrote more than 50 patches20:44
lmnHm, fair enough.20:44
knomecharlie-tca, that's what i meant. i didn't mean that developers are not in a special status. they sure are. (thanks cody and lionel)20:45
j1mci wouldn't want to "weight" someone's opinion20:45
knome(and steve)20:45
SiDicharlie-tca: i dont think there can be a distro only with developers20:45
SiDidevs often dont see the shortcomings of their own work without support teams to fetch feedback from users20:46
knomej1mc, that was just justifying that even developers should be counted as "contributors", not a separate group20:46
charlie-tcaOf course there can, that is what started xubuntu20:46
knomecharlie-tca, tbh, i don't think it would have lasted long if there wasn't somebody who was interested in something else than development20:47
j1mcknome: i think part of the "developers" is that there is a separate lp group... which gives certain permissions?  i think it also recognizes them a bit more.20:47
j1mcknome: i think we disagree on this a bit, but that's ok20:47
knomej1mc, i agree with developers having certain permissions.20:47
SiDiOf course devs can start a distro as long as they also know a bit about system administration and packaging20:47
knomej1mc, but i don't agree one developer being any more important in the council than one "contributor"20:48
SiDibut a good distro also needs a documentation and support team20:48
j1mcknome: i agree w/ you on tha tpoint20:48
SiDi+ some designer effort for the desktop settings20:48
knomej1mc, also, there would be no idea in letting me have push rights to universe. i'd just mess everything up.20:48
knomej1mc, developers need special permissions to be able to do their part.20:49
j1mcknome: +1 billion.  every app would have a special "unicorn" button if it were up to you.20:49
knomej1mc, ...and a pink kitten20:49
j1mcwhat can we agree on for now.20:49
j1mci think we're coming to some agreement20:49
knomesure20:49
j1mcwe have PL for now - mr_p  :)20:50
j1mcwe know we want a council...20:50
j1mc4 or 5 people...20:50
SiDiknome: and binary birds20:50
j1mcwe know we want votes to be equal20:50
knome5, to have a tiebreaker.20:50
j1mcbut PL can over-rule20:50
knomej1mc, that's where we disagree.20:50
j1mcas tie-breaker20:50
j1mcsorry... not over-rule20:50
knomeor at least haven't agreed yet20:50
j1mcbad choice of words20:50
j1mcin cases where the PL and the subject matter expert disagree - we need special considerations20:51
j1mcthat have yet to be determined20:51
j1mc(not sure we can decide on formal lanague in this mtg)20:51
j1mcam i on the right track?20:52
j1mcwhat else can we agree on?20:52
knomej1mc, but if the council votes 3-2 for the TL (PL disagrees), wouldn't the TL's idea go through anyway?20:52
j1mcno, because then there is no tie20:52
j1mcwait... yes20:52
knome:D20:53
SiDiyes20:53
j1mcsorry, i misread20:53
knomeso if there is 5 members20:53
knomeand one of them is the PL20:53
SiDiPL would break the tie when there is a 2-2 (+ 1 abstention or absence)20:53
knomeyes.20:53
j1mcyes20:53
SiDibut i'd prefer having the "subject expert" as a tie breaker20:53
knomei kind of have to agree with SiDi here20:53
SiDibecause if he has more experience in the field hes more likely to know which decision is better20:53
knomeat least if the voting is tied.20:54
knome(and there has been a vote)20:54
charlie-tcaproject lead should be thinking of the overall best for the project; team leader is only looking at his part20:54
SiDicharlie-tca: i think we're all looking for the best of the project20:54
SiDiand we all want to work together and have a global vision of the project20:54
knomecharlie-tca, how to find out when the decision really matters for the best of the whole project?20:54
knomeor when it is only about agreeing and disagreeing20:54
charlie-tcaA a team leader, you want what "you" do first. As project lead, you are looking at everything20:55
knomeif it's about certain artwork (eg. wallpaper), can you really say that an another WP would be better for "the project" ?20:55
charlie-tcayes20:56
knomei can't say that.20:56
charlie-tcalook at Ubuntu and how many times their choices have been hated20:56
j1mcWP is certainly subjective20:56
knomecharlie-tca, if i create a consistent theme for, let's say, lucid with the marketing team20:57
charlie-tcaEven the karmic gdm screen is still being debated as to quality20:57
knomecharlie-tca, and it includes a wallpaper, which is as well consistent20:57
knomecharlie-tca, and the PL disagrees20:57
raevolthis seems like a really silly thing to get stuck on, since all themed things can be changed by the user20:57
knomecharlie-tca, should we change to a WP that is not consistent with the rest of the artwork?20:57
SiDiraevol: its the main point of disagreement in Xubuntu :D20:57
charlie-tcaThat is not what I said, knome20:57
raevolthat's kind of ridiculous20:57
knomecharlie-tca, that's what i meant.20:57
SiDiraevol: we usually start epic wars that involve nuclear bombing when it comes to the default wallpaper20:58
raevoland things like the login manager or media player get left on the wayside?20:58
knomeraevol, we usually just agree on those.20:58
SiDithe login manager is out of our control20:58
SiDithe media player is what i've been working on in the last cycle20:58
knomecharlie-tca, can you try to be more verbose on what you meant, then?20:58
raevoli'm sorry but froma  1st time user at this meeting, if all this governance drama is over wallpaper, that's really sad20:59
SiDiraevol: it was a (big) caricature from me20:59
knome[IDEA] Council of 4 or 5 members. Votes are equal, except if we need a tie-break. Who will tiebreak?21:00
MootBotIDEA received:  Council of 4 or 5 members. Votes are equal, except if we need a tie-break. Who will tiebreak?21:00
knomeraevol, it's not that we only argued over wallpapers.21:00
raevolhow about a council of 5 and ties are not allowed21:00
charlie-tcaI'm saying that in any project, the individual team leaders will always push hardest for their team items, especially when they came up with the idea.21:00
knomeraevol, these are just examples.21:00
raevolk21:00
charlie-tcaThe project leader should not be involved in those team projects individuallym, and will look at the whole project instead21:00
knomecharlie-tca, of course. is that bad for the project, if the team leader wants the best for the project?21:01
knomecharlie-tca, i mean, COME ON, has anybody really suggested anything THAT SUCKY?21:01
SiDicharlie-tca: we all get personal about what we do, its normal. But we also are adult persons and we're capable of thinking about what's best for the project21:01
knome(in any team)21:01
charlie-tcaThe project leader shfould be able to look at all the items, to see the biggest picture21:01
knomeraevol, even in a 5 member council one can be absent and then there's the possibility of having a tie.21:02
SiDicharlie-tca: then what can the project leader do apart from waiting and vetoing/distributing white cards?21:02
raevolput the vote on hold until the 5th returns?21:02
knomecharlie-tca, then the project leader should not take part on any team21:02
SiDiAnd, more important, why would there be a single person to have a whole picture of xubuntu ?21:02
knomecharlie-tca, because then he would get things in his team always pushed through anyway.21:02
SiDiraevol: the 5th can disappear. It happens21:02
knomecharlie-tca, or things HE DID.21:03
raevolif they dissapear for more than a few weeks they shouldn't be on council, wouldn't you think? and a vote could wait a few weeks?21:03
knomeraevol, they can disappear completely.21:03
knomeraevol, this is voluntary work.21:03
charlie-tcaraevol: a vote can't wait if a decision has to be made by tomorrow21:03
raevolcould you then have a time limit on absence before they are replaced?21:03
SiDiraevol: a vote can't be on hold. Deadlines are already so short21:03
charlie-tcaWhich does happen21:03
knome+1 on charlie-tca and SiDi21:04
raevolor perhaps each council member has a person to stand in for them?21:04
SiDiwe dont even have 10 contributors :D21:04
charlie-tcaSure21:04
SiDiSo we can't do that21:04
charlie-tcaknome, can you be my stand in?21:04
knomedo we agree that if council gets something to decide on, they should decide on the thing in the first meeting they have.21:04
knomecharlie-tca, of course. especially when we disagree :P21:05
charlie-tcaThanks21:05
knomej1mc, did you fall off your chair already?21:05
charlie-tcaOf course, that still leaves the council short that member, doesn't it21:05
j1mcknome: :)21:05
charlie-tcaI agree the council has to decide quickly21:05
knomecharlie-tca, well i think, if i was your stand in, wouldn't i have two votes?21:05
charlie-tcaYup21:06
j1mci'm ok with 5 members... do not have a preference on how ties are situated21:06
charlie-tcaOne for qa and one for marketing?21:06
knomecharlie-tca, my own vote and your vote, if i stand for you.21:06
knomeregardless of the teams.21:06
charlie-tcaSounds right21:06
knomeshould we vote on team size?21:07
knomeor do we just agree on five?21:07
knomeeh21:07
knomecouncil size21:07
charlie-tcaShouldn't there be a minimum number show up to have a decision made?21:07
knome(let's kick charlie-tca out, he's not a REAL developer)21:07
j1mci think five is good21:07
knomejust a joke.21:07
* j1mc hugs charlie-tca 21:07
j1mc:)21:07
* charlie-tca is gone21:07
knomecharlie-tca, 50%+, so if the council is 5, 3 would be wnough.21:07
* knome hugs charlie-tca as well :)21:07
charlie-tcaright21:07
SiDiSorry, wifi crashed21:08
knomeif the council is 4, you'd still need 3 to be able to decide21:08
knomeand the size would leave a possibility for more ties21:08
charlie-tcaso if we get 3, 4, or 5 show up, a decision would be made at that meeting.21:08
knomecharlie-tca, yes.21:08
j1mcyup21:08
knomeUNLESS21:08
knomethere are four people in21:08
charlie-tcano UNLESS21:08
knomebut the PL is away21:08
knomethen there's a tie21:08
knomeand no tie-breaker21:08
knomeif a TL can't tiebreak.21:08
SiDiOk21:09
charlie-tcaThat may be the exception to the TL breaking the tie21:09
SiDii propose Fair Roll Dice for ties21:09
knomethen it's 2-2 but no tiebreaker.21:09
knomeSiDi, fair roll dice? :F21:09
SiDidice roll21:09
SiDiSorry, i'm tired21:09
knomelol21:09
knomei was already wondering what a fair dice was21:09
charlie-tcaknome: that does make sense. PL is a tiebreaker unless he is not there, then TL is21:09
knome(one with 6 6's?)=21:09
knomecharlie-tca, well...21:10
knomecharlie-tca, i can't agree on that either21:10
raevoldoes that mean it's agreed that PL breaks ties between TL and PL?21:10
charlie-tcaokey dokey21:10
knomepeople could tamper with the results21:10
j1mcknome: no tampering :)21:10
knomeeg. propose a meeting when the PL can't take part21:10
j1mcgaaah21:10
j1mcno21:10
j1mcnot going to go there21:10
knomeyes, they could do that.21:11
charlie-tcaPL should never break ties between him and TL; there would only be two there then21:11
knomei could.21:11
knomei mean...21:11
knome:P21:11
knomecharlie-tca, so if a vote is 2-2 with PL and TL on different sides, it's still a tiebreak?21:11
knomes/tiebreak/tie/21:12
charlie-tcaPL should not have voted yet21:12
raevolperhaps decisions should never be made without both the PL and TL, unless they give their permission? which they would be sort of expected to do if there's a deadline issue?21:12
knomeso you propose a PL is not a voting member at all?21:12
charlie-tca4 showed up, TL and two voted; no tie21:12
charlie-tcaI propose the PL votes as tie-breaker only21:12
SiDioh21:13
SiDiThen it means the PL can't vote on non-ties, thats unfair to him :D21:13
knomeno.21:13
j1mcdoesnt that defeat the purpose of having a PL21:13
charlie-tcaHe no longer has the heaviest say every time21:13
knomei disagree.21:13
charlie-tcaThere was no council meeting unless they disagreed, was there?21:13
knomeif TL and 2 vote (1 for TL, 2 against), and the PL would have agreed with TL...21:13
knomethat makes PL have so much less weight on his words21:14
knomeand that's not what we want, if the PL is the best guy to say what is the best for the project, right?21:14
j1mci think the PL should definitely be able to vote.21:15
knomeif PL voted in the first vote, it would have been a tie (2-2) and then PL's vote would have made the difference, thus TL in this example winning.21:15
knomebut if the PL didn't vote,TL would have lost.21:15
j1mci know it's important to delineate these things, but i feel like we're splitting hairs21:16
knomethis is an exaggerated example, but this REALLY shouldn't happen.21:16
j1mcif a fifth member can't make it, and there's an important issue... call them.  email them.21:16
knomeso, do we agree on the council size of 5?21:16
knomej1mc, and as the last effort, fart in their nose.21:16
j1mcthat's ok w/ me21:16
knomeeverybody else agree?21:16
knomeSiDi, charlie-tca, raevol ?21:17
knomelmn, ?21:17
j1mcmr_pouit21:17
lmnYes.21:17
charlie-tca521:17
lmnknome: Agreed.21:17
lmn:)21:17
raevoloh don't wait for my agreement, i'm just watching and commenting21:17
knomeraevol, you can disagree as well if you feel like.21:17
knomeraevol, or agree, of course :P21:17
mr_pouityeah yeah, agree for 521:18
knomethis shouldn't be a secret club.21:18
raevoli agree21:18
knome[AGREED] Council size should be 5 members, with one of them being the Project Lead.21:18
MootBotAGREED received:  Council size should be 5 members, with one of them being the Project Lead.21:18
knomedid somebody [disagree] with the latter point?21:18
knome:P21:18
j1mcno :)21:18
knomedoes the PL get vote in the first voting in the council?21:19
knomedo we need a vote on this?21:19
* charlie-tca thinks disagreeing is good for the mind21:19
* knome thinks disagreeing with your mind is good.21:19
lmnknome: I disagree with my fists,.21:20
lmnjk21:20
knomei'll be back in just a few seconds, i have to go to the bathroom.21:20
j1mci think the PL should be able to vote in all cases21:20
raevoli agree with PL voting21:20
j1mcwhy should the leader be penalized in the decision-making process?21:20
* SiDi is half afk. Got work to do for tomorrow morning21:21
* charlie-tca disagrees, but that is okay too21:21
knomeSiDi, with being half at keyboard, could you cast your vote21:22
SiDiSure21:22
knome+ or - ?21:22
j1mcthe council should be selected by the existing xubuntu-contributors21:22
SiDi+21:22
SiDiLaunch a vote if you want me to vote :P21:22
SiDij1mc: i agree to this too21:22
knome[AGREED] The Project Leader will have a vote in a first vote in the council, not just as a tie-breaker.21:23
MootBotAGREED received:  The Project Leader will have a vote in a first vote in the council, not just as a tie-breaker.21:23
charlie-tca+1 j1mc21:23
knomeyeah.21:23
knomeanybody disagree?21:23
charlie-tcawhat are we disagreeing on now?21:23
knomecharlie-tca, you already agreed on selecting the council21:24
knomeraevol, lmn ?21:24
* charlie-tca seems to have gotten confused21:24
knomeheh, np21:24
lmnknome: Agreed.21:24
knomei can also do [vote]s if you want21:24
raevoli agree with PL voting? that's where we are?21:24
knome[AGREED] The 4 members in the Council in addition to the Project Leader should be selected by the existing 'xubuntu-contributors'.21:25
MootBotAGREED received:  The 4 members in the Council in addition to the Project Leader should be selected by the existing 'xubuntu-contributors'.21:25
raevoli agree with that too21:25
knomeokay, who will tiebreak.21:25
SiDiknome: if for a reason or another i dont answer to a vote request within 1 min, you can safely assume i vote the same as you, whenever my vote is relevant21:25
knomeonly pl or tl+pl ?21:25
* SiDi thinks the person who has most contributed to w/e is being discussed should tie break21:25
knomeSiDi, okay, that's valid/official enough :P21:26
SiDiwhoever it is21:26
knomeSiDi, only the one or he and tl?21:26
knomeand in which order?21:26
knomej1mc, charlie-tca, lmn, raevol: can i have your opinions please. should team leader be able to tiebreak?21:26
lmnHm.21:27
j1mcbe able to tie break what?21:27
lmnA tie.21:27
knomej1mc, at all.21:27
lmn:P21:27
charlie-tcaonly when PL is absent21:27
raevoli don't really have enough experience on the project to say who should tiebreak. my instincts say PL should, but i really don't know21:27
lmnI agree with charlie.21:27
j1mccharlie-tca: i agree21:27
knomeSiDi, do you agree with that as well?21:27
mr_pouit(same here)21:27
knomeokay21:28
knomemr_pouit, sorry for forgetting you in the ping :P21:28
knomei think this have been decided already, and i also agree21:28
lmnHe was too busy being awesome.21:28
mr_pouitI'm reading, so no problem :p21:28
knome[AGREED] The appropriate Team Lead can be the tiebreaker in a vote, but only if Project Lead is absent.21:29
MootBotAGREED received:  The appropriate Team Lead can be the tiebreaker in a vote, but only if Project Lead is absent.21:29
raevolquestion: should the PL be able to request that a decision be made when he can be present?21:29
SiDiknome: only the one21:29
j1mcwe are talking about team leads.. but will someone will be assigned as "team lead" formally?  cody-somerville was opposed to this21:29
SiDithat makes things more straightforward21:29
knomej1mc, i think that was just an idea he threw in. at the moment we DO have team leads.21:30
charlie-tcaor will each team simply send a team member to the meeting?21:30
SiDiknome: there is a consensus on the PL, so lets say PL.21:30
raevoli like the idea of council members being associated with teams21:30
knomehttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2009-December/007225.html <- what do you think about this new team formation?21:30
knomei think people pretty much agreed on it on the list, but i'll ask again21:31
knomethat would mean we'd have 4 team leads21:31
knomeif one of them was the PL, we could vote a random guy in the council21:31
j1mci don't like having the website under documentation21:31
knomelike, some other contributor.21:31
j1mcmostly because i feel ill-equipped to coordinate the website, though21:32
j1mci think website is under marketing21:32
knomej1mc, they are quite much doing the same thing21:32
knomej1mc, you would have people to help you though21:32
knomeif it's under marketing, then marketing would be quite a big team21:32
knomemarketing is, in that draft, already marketing+artwork21:33
j1mcwell, website is both mktg and doc-related21:33
knomei think it is more about doc21:33
j1mci need a vote from the council!  :P21:33
knome:P21:33
j1mci disagree :P21:33
charlie-tcawebsite has to be pretty! that's marketing, isn't it?21:33
j1mcyes :)21:33
knomecharlie-tca, but it also has to have solid INFORMATION. isn't that documentation?21:34
j1mcyes :)21:34
j1mcdocumarketing21:34
charlie-tcaI don't think information is as important as looks21:34
charlie-tcaAnyone can design an ugly website, but few will go to it then21:34
SiDiIt's under both21:34
SiDiStop categorizing things so binarily :P21:34
knomewhat the website looks is only to be considered when we are doing a website redesign21:35
SiDicharlie-tca: web designers also hold for a fact that a beautiful shell without content is atractive only for the first 5 minutes ;D21:35
knomethe banners for the website belong to artwork team, which then "ships" the files to the website team, which adds them in the site21:35
charlie-tcaperhaps a fifth team: Everything else?21:35
knomepractically: i upload them with drupal.21:35
knome:P21:35
SiDicharlie-tca: :D21:35
knomecharlie-tca, disagree. that would include picking your nose, and i want that under marketing. if we are going to create "everything else" team, weƤll have to explicitly say that nosepicking belongs for the marketing team21:36
* charlie-tca thinks that is all in the wording21:36
knome:)21:37
charlie-tcaThat's fine, Knightlust21:37
charlie-tcaknome21:37
knomeafter all, we already "kind of" have the COMMUNITY team21:37
knomewhich is mentioned in the team report page21:37
knome"just put it under community"21:37
knome:P21:37
knomei've heard that a few times.21:37
knomewell.21:38
knomei'm making a question:21:38
charlie-tcaThat's because community just fits nicely21:38
knomeif the council should have one member from each team, wouldn't that basically mean that it's populated by (probably) all the team leaders and the PL, and probably one more member?21:38
knomeif we had five teams, wouldn't that mean that (probably) all the team leaders were part of the council?21:39
lmnSorry, apparently my session died without informing me.21:39
charlie-tcayes21:39
knomedo we really need a fifth team?21:39
charlie-tcaWhich is what the council should be21:39
knomedoes everybody agree that the council should have one member from each team?21:39
j1mcknome: in practice, i would like to have the website outside of the official "documentation" realm for now if only because i have no access to the website... if you want to say that members of the marketing and documentation teams will collaborate to ensure the upkeep of the website, that's fine.21:39
knome(do i have to make a [vote] ?)21:39
knomej1mc, i think you can have an account in the website21:40
knomei might be able to do that, actually.21:40
knomelet me check21:41
raevolagreed that the council should consist of team leads, though making a 5th team or not is *shrug*21:41
SiDilmn: dead sessions can't spea21:41
knomej1mc, yes, i can do that.21:42
j1mci think that the council should generically be representative of the xubuntu project...21:43
knomemr_pouit, lmn, SiDi, j1mc: should council have one member from each team?21:43
lmnHm..21:43
charlie-tcaexpand, j1mc21:43
lmnknome: That's a tough one.21:43
j1mcknome: i don' think it's necessary to formalize it21:43
dhillon-v10hi all :)21:43
knomej1mc, i think that a council including the current team leads would definitely do that.21:43
j1mchi dhillon-v1021:43
knomehello dhillon-v1021:43
lmnHi, dhillon-v10.21:43
SiDiknome: could you type the name of the current 4 teams?21:44
dhillon-v10j1mc, knome, lmn so is this a xubuntu-council meeting, nice21:44
lmnYes. :)21:44
j1mcthere may be some cases where a person is a well-respected, long-time contributor...21:44
knomeSiDi, check out https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2009-December/007225.html21:44
j1mcbut they are also part of the artwork/marketing team.21:44
lmnWell, we're figuring out what the council _is_ right now.21:44
SiDiblah, knome21:44
knomeSiDi, that's my proposal21:44
raevolj1mc: that's really true21:44
knomeSiDi, CURRENTLY there is more teams.21:44
j1mcso... if we have two people on the council from 1 team... that is what we have at that time.21:45
SiDiok, imo website should go to marketing, and there is a lack of desktop team21:45
j1mcas long as they are well-respected and people think they make fair decisions, i think it's ok21:45
knomedhillon-v10, not a council meeting yet, we don't just have council yet. it's the TEAM meeting ;)21:45
lmn^21:45
knomeSiDi, i suppose desktop is under dev21:45
dhillon-v10knome, okay :) I'll sit back and watch21:46
SiDij1mc: +1. Anyway the 5 members of the council will be part of one or more teams21:46
knomej1mc, yeah, no problem if we have more than one from each team. but i was asking whether we should have *at least* one member from each team.21:46
j1mcSiDi: yeah21:46
j1mcknome: it may not always be possible21:46
knomedhillon-v10, feel free to vote and join the discussion as well. it's an open meeting21:46
j1mcteam names may change21:46
SiDiknome: dev should be bugfixing, triaging, packaging, release management, which is different from desktop. But anyway a desktop team is too early considering it would be empty, very likely :p21:46
dhillon-v10knome, thanks :)21:46
raevolknome: that would be nice, but perhaps not necessary as a requirement21:46
j1mci'm a bit more laissez-faire about this.  if the council will be selected by the contributors...21:47
knomej1mc, okay. i can cope with that. no problem :)21:47
j1mci think that's enough21:47
knomej1mc, yeah.21:47
knomeum, i had an another question21:47
knomehow long should one "season" last? how often should we have a new voting of the council?21:47
j1mcif you want to say that the council should "aim" to have balanced membership across the different aspects of xubuntu, i think that's ok21:47
knomej1mc, that's a great wording. :)21:48
j1mc1 year - 2 cycles?21:48
knomeyeah, at least 2 cycles i think.21:48
j1mcmore than that is too much, i think21:48
j1mccharlie-tca: what do you think?21:48
knomehaving a council for 1 cycle doesn't really make it possible to do long-term decisions21:48
SiDiI think we could do it per LTS cycle21:48
knomeSiDi, that's quite rarely.21:48
SiDito be able to decide on very long term projects21:48
charlie-tcaI am having issues just following this now21:49
j1mccharlie-tca: ok21:49
* SiDi is about to have to go, because of school tomorrow, by the way21:49
knomemaybe the council should be able to do "very long term decisions" which last over the council's age21:49
j1mcdo we agree that we don't need to have "one person from each team on the council"?21:49
knomej1mc, yes.21:49
raevolj1mc: yes21:49
j1mcanyone disagree with that?21:49
lmnyes21:49
lmner21:49
lmnno21:49
lmn:P21:49
lmnI agree.21:50
lmn:)21:50
knomeand that the "very long term" decisions could be overruled but only by a council vote21:50
j1mclmn: sorry... :)  i changed the yes/no o nyou21:50
lmnhehe21:50
lmn;)21:50
knome[AGREED] The council should *aim* to have balanced membership across the different aspects/teams of Xubuntu.21:50
MootBotAGREED received:  The council should *aim* to have balanced membership across the different aspects/teams of Xubuntu.21:50
SiDiknome: fair enough21:50
raevolknome put in a clause about it not being necessary, just so it's clear to future people21:51
knomej1mc, ? what do you think of the very long term stuff?21:51
knomeraevol, "should aim" means it's not mandatory.21:51
j1mccharlie-tca: our next point was to consider how long people should be on the council?21:51
raevolknome: i forsee someone trying to make "should aim" into a necessary thing ;)21:51
knomeraevol, then reconsider rephrasing it at that time21:52
knomeor just kick his/her ass21:52
j1mcappts for the ubuntu community council are made for 2 years21:52
raevolhahaha21:52
knomej1mc, i agree with you that it's a long time.21:52
charlie-tcaYou ;can define terms later, "should does not mean will" kind of things21:52
j1mctechnical board members are elected for two years, too21:53
charlie-tca2 years being 4 cycles?21:53
j1mci think that's a long time for us... charlie-tca year... 4 cycles21:53
knomecharlie-tca, i think we need to have some kind of guideline as for now, so voting members again will happen.21:53
raevoli've gotta run guys, will meeting notes end up on the mailing list?21:53
j1mcraevol: sure21:53
knomeyeah, 4 cycles/2 yrs  is a LONG time.21:53
raevolkk, bye, good luck!21:53
charlie-tcaLTS is every two years, what if the council is elected before each LTS phase begins21:54
mr_pouits/before/after/21:54
charlie-tcaafter works for me21:54
knomecharlie-tca, not thinking the release schedule at all, it's really hard for me seeing it would be good if people sat in the council for 2 years.21:54
j1mci see that as being a long time, but i think it would lend continuity to the project21:54
mr_pouit(setting up a new council during a lts cycle looks a bit counterproductive)21:55
charlie-tcaFor continuity and being able to accomplish much, 2 years is about right21:55
knomei don't completely disagree with that either.21:55
charlie-tcaSetting up the new council after lts hits beta?21:55
dhillon-v10yah 2 years seems just about right IMHO21:56
knomewhat bout set it when lts is released?21:56
charlie-tcaIt could take 6 months just to get settled each time21:56
j1mcand it ensures that we don't get unexpected turnover right before an LTS21:56
charlie-tcaokay21:56
knomeshould i make a [vote] ?21:56
j1mcnot yet21:56
knomeokay.21:56
knomei'm waiting for what you have to say :)21:57
j1mcso using lucid as an example...21:57
charlie-tca2 years only sounds long, maybe word it to 4 releases21:57
j1mcif we used this process...21:57
j1mcwe would have voted after the close of karmic?21:57
knomej1mc, after close of lucid.21:57
charlie-tcaIf it is before LTS, yes21:58
charlie-tcaIf it after, when lucid releases21:58
knomei think definitely AFTER an lts release21:58
j1mci would want the council to have had a good amount of experience together in advance of an LTS.21:58
knomej1mc, exactly.21:58
charlie-tcaWe picked them after hardy ( 2008) and ;again after lucid (2010)21:58
knomethat's why we would name the council right after the earlier lts21:58
j1mcso we shouldn't introduce a new council to xubuntu immediately in advance of an LTS21:58
j1mcknome: agreed.  charlie-tca: agreed, too.21:59
j1mcthat makes sense21:59
knomeso that means we are agreeing with the 2 year term as well?21:59
j1mcknome: now i think a vote would be ok. :)  yeah, i am ok with that.21:59
charlie-tcaWe don't want leadership changes before/during the LTS release, if we can help it.21:59
knomecharlie-tca, yeah. exactly.22:00
knomedoes anybody disagree on the two year term or the time naming the new council (just after lts release) ?22:00
j1mci am ok with that22:00
knomej1mc, i heard that. i'm waiting for mr_pouit ;)22:01
mr_pouityeah, I'm ok too :p22:01
lmn;)22:01
knomeokay.22:01
knomeanybody else?22:01
lmnAgreed.22:01
knomeokay22:01
SiDiknome: i agree with changing council after LTS22:01
charlie-tcaI have to propose that any more discussion be tabled at this point. We are two hours in now22:02
knome[AGREED] The council should be named/selected after every LTS release. Thus, every season lasts for 2 years.22:02
MootBotAGREED received:  The council should be named/selected after every LTS release. Thus, every season lasts for 2 years.22:02
charlie-tcaHold another meetint next week or in two weeks.22:02
knomekind of disagree.22:02
knome:P22:02
lmnI agree.22:02
j1mcwhat else needs to be decided?22:03
j1mccan we at least confirm that?22:03
knomelet me see22:03
knomethere was at least something22:03
lmn2 hours of council discussion has killed my enthusiasm, tbh.22:03
knomeoh, the new teams22:03
knome[ACTION] Discuss about the new team structure in the next meeting.22:03
MootBotACTION received:  Discuss about the new team structure in the next meeting.22:03
knomeumm...22:04
knomewe still haven't fought about the lucid wallpaper22:04
j1mcknome: nooo.22:04
charlie-tcamake it light22:04
j1mclmn: i know this is not fun22:04
knome:)22:04
charlie-tcawell, medium22:04
knomewell, just to inform you all22:04
lmnknome: Just grab an 800x600 polaroid of George W Bush. I'm sure we'd all enjoy that.22:04
j1mcbut getting this out of the way is helpful.22:04
j1mcwe won't have to deal w/ it again22:05
lmnTrue.22:05
charlie-tcaknome: you want me to send you an "everybody else" monitor?22:05
knomeMichael (NCommander) says he is going to pause his involvement with Xubuntu for now; ENOTIME.22:05
knomecharlie-tca, haha :D22:05
knomeso we'll be one short for lucid/lucid+1 at least, i think22:06
knomej1mc, where was our agenda again?22:06
j1mcwiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings22:06
knomej1mc, did you have some quick words about xfce 4.8+lucid?22:07
j1mcoh, just that we'll need to set a cutoff point where we decide whether or not we want to use 4.8 or stay with 4.622:08
knomemr_pouit, ?22:09
charlie-tcaWhat kind of final date is there for 4.8 to be out?22:09
j1mccody and i talked about it at uds a little... he came up with a date around alpha 3, i think.22:09
j1mci'll have to look at my notes.22:09
knomej1mc, will you do that now or later?22:09
mr_pouitI don't think it'll be ready22:09
mr_pouitso I would prefer to wait for lucid+122:10
knomei doubt it as well, but IF...22:10
knomemaybe that would be better22:10
knomeeven though i'd really like to see 4.8 in lucid22:10
knomeescpecially if it has a menu editor22:10
knome>:|22:10
SiDiGood night to everyone. If my opinion is needed I let Pasi vote instead of me22:11
knomeSiDi, i doubt we'll vote today. good night :)22:11
j1mcwe can talk about it further, but my note from talking with cody says, "Decide on whether or not to include Xfce 4.8 between Alpha 3 and Beta 11"22:11
knomebeta 11? :P22:11
SiDicharlie-tca: 4.8 should be out in 1st of April if my memory doesnt betray me22:11
j1mcbeta 122:11
j1mcsorry22:11
knomewhen is beta 1?22:11
SiDibeta 1 is in March 1st22:12
charlie-tcaSeems a little tight to get it into lucid22:12
mr_pouitalpha 3 is after feature freeze, too late22:12
knomebeta 1 is march 18th22:12
charlie-tcaPL has spoken22:12
knomeaccording to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule22:12
SiDiI think it's safer not to push it, but we need to check the billion commits for bugfixes to the 4.6 branch22:12
charlie-tca:-)22:12
SiDiNow, good night everyone! :D22:12
mr_pouitSiDi: that's in progress22:13
mr_pouitI've already included all patches from the xfce-4.6 branch in xfdesktop4 today for instance22:13
knomeso shall we go with 4.6?22:13
j1mcmr_pouit: would we be able to get the new thunar into lucid?22:13
j1mceven if we went w/4.6?22:14
mr_pouitit depends on xfce 4.8 components22:14
mr_pouit(such as libxfce4ui)22:14
j1mcyeah22:14
mr_pouitand exo 0.622:14
mr_pouitthey aren't "stable" at the moment22:15
mr_pouitso I would prefer not to include it22:15
j1mcwith dapper... xubuntu was released w/ xfce 4.3.9.xx or something22:15
mr_pouityeah, and xfce folks were really unhappy22:15
mr_pouitbecause they received bugs reports about outdated development releases22:16
knomehmm22:16
charlie-tcaWe are looking at keeping 4.6.? until 2013?22:16
mr_pouitmoreover, thunar gio might create issues with other components not ported yet22:16
mr_pouit(such as xfdesktop4)22:17
lmncharlie-tca: Yeah, that means listening to gui menu editing questions until 2013.22:17
lmnheh heh22:17
knomeugh22:17
charlie-tcaand complaints about it being out of date, too22:17
lmnThis is a loaded problem.22:17
lmnREAL loaded.22:17
knomewasn't there a guy who was crating an xfce-suitable version of alacarte?22:18
knome:?22:18
j1mcwe could go with 4.6, and put 4.8 in a ppa.22:18
lmnj1mc: I don't see that going over well.22:19
j1mcwell... at least we can begin to identify the issues/possible problems now.22:19
j1mcand then make a decision as we see how 4.8 is progressing.22:19
j1mcthey may not have things done until june.22:20
j1mcnever know. :)22:20
j1mcor july.22:20
knome[ACTION] Continue looking how 4.8 is progressing and possible include it in Lucid.22:20
MootBotACTION received:  Continue looking how 4.8 is progressing and possible include it in Lucid.22:20
knomeany team reports?22:20
charlie-tcamr_pouit has done great triaging and fixing bugs22:21
j1mci've written new docs for xfce4-screenshooter in "mallard," a new doc syntax from the gnome team.22:21
knome[TOPIC] Team reports22:21
MootBotNew Topic:  Team reports22:21
j1mcjeromeg likes them22:21
knome[ACTION] Lionel had done great traging and fixing bugs.22:21
MootBotACTION received:  Lionel had done great traging and fixing bugs.22:21
knome[ACTION] Jim has written new docs for xfce4-screenshooter in "Mallard" (jeromeg likes them).22:22
MootBotACTION received:  Jim has written new docs for xfce4-screenshooter in "Mallard" (jeromeg likes them).22:22
j1mcheh22:22
mr_pouit(some topics for the marketing & artwork team: ubiquity slideshow & plymouth theme ;p)22:22
knome[ACTION] Shimmer Project announced the deadline for Albatross 0.2 to be 1st of March so we will have time to incorporate it into Lucid, if decided so.22:23
MootBotACTION received:  Shimmer Project announced the deadline for Albatross 0.2 to be 1st of March so we will have time to incorporate it into Lucid, if decided so.22:23
knomemr_pouit, is plymouth in lucid?22:23
mr_pouityes, although I don't know if it works :)22:24
j1mcthey confirmed at UDS that they would be using plymouth + xplash for the boot sequence22:24
knome[ACTION] Artwork team to look on Plymouth and plan on creating a theme.22:25
MootBotACTION received:  Artwork team to look on Plymouth and plan on creating a theme.22:25
j1mci'm going to be recruiting for xubuntu and xfce doc help.22:25
charlie-tcashimmer project needs to lighten the panels in lucid22:25
j1mcboth are separate projects22:25
knomej1mc, you decided to have two projects after all?22:25
j1mcknome: xubuntu docs will continue to be done in docbook for now.22:26
j1mcso, es22:26
knome[ACTION] Jim is working on and recruiting for both the Xubuntu and Xfce documentation.22:26
MootBotACTION received:  Jim is working on and recruiting for both the Xubuntu and Xfce documentation.22:26
knomecharlie-tca, did you file a bug?22:26
j1mcs/es/yes22:26
knomej1mc, okay22:26
charlie-tcaknome: not yet22:26
knome[ACTION] Charlie files bugs about Albatross accessibility issues so the artwork guys can work on them.22:27
MootBotACTION received:  Charlie files bugs about Albatross accessibility issues so the artwork guys can work on them.22:27
mr_pouithttps://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/ubiquity-slideshow for ubiquity also22:27
mr_pouitthat's already enabled in ubuntu I think, I don't know what it looks like, but it could be nice to have this for xubuntu as well22:28
knome[ACTION] Marketing team to look after Ubiquity slideshows.22:28
MootBotACTION received:  Marketing team to look after Ubiquity slideshows.22:28
knome[LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubiquity-slideshow22:28
MootBotLINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubiquity-slideshow22:28
knomemr_pouit, i can see that and discuss with people knowing more about it22:29
mr_pouitok22:29
j1mcknome: we'll also need CSS for the Xubuntu docs22:29
mr_pouitdo you think you can have a first version before feature freeze? knome22:30
mr_pouit(feb 18th)22:30
knome[ACTION] Pasi and Jim continue theming the Xubuntu documentation.22:30
MootBotACTION received:  Pasi and Jim continue theming the Xubuntu documentation.22:30
dhillon-v10j1mc, I'll help with system docs too, if needed :)22:31
j1mcdhillon-v10: excellent22:31
knomemr_pouit, that's possible, but i think i need some help to achieve/make that daye22:31
knome*date22:31
knomeso, anything else we should cover now or in the next meeting?22:31
j1mceveryone, i need to go, but i wanted to THANK YOU for your time.  :)22:32
j1mcthis was the best xubuntu meeting ever.22:32
knomethank you jim.22:32
mr_pouitknome: okay, I can take care of the packaging stuff, etc, but not of the text inside the slides :p22:32
knomei'll put up the meeting minutes and the logs and stuff22:32
j1mcknome: i can help with the text for the slides22:32
knomemr_pouit, thanks. :) j1mc can work on the texts22:32
knomehehe22:32
knomegreat22:32
knomemaybe we'll be ready for FF then22:32
knome#endmeeting22:33
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:33.22:33
mr_pouit:)22:33
knomegah22:33
j1mc:-D22:33
j1mchehe22:33
* knome slaps himself in the face22:33
charlie-tcagotta go now22:33
knomeokay, see you charlie-tca22:33
j1mclater, charlie-tca22:33
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