[09:04] <kwwii> morning all
[09:05] <thorwil> morning!
[09:05] <thorwil> how's the weather in london? :)
[09:06] <kwwii> thorwil: actually, much better than germany ;)
[09:09] <darkmatter> -6C here. I'm going skinny dipping!
[09:21] <kwwii> lol
[09:21] <kwwii> lol
[09:27] <kwwii> oops
[09:56] <darkmatter> kwwii: I'm seriously considering authoring an advanced css extension for gtk+
[10:01] <thorwil> darkmatter: what would make it advanced and how would it be an extension?
[10:06] <kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, I have the same question as thorwil ;)
[10:15] <darkmatter> thorwil: long version or short? I'll start with the short I guess. from one aspect, think of something akin to glade, but much more flexible and potentially powerful. designed to encompass not just local, but the web as well. (bear with me. kinda tired, my wording is substandard and I may jump back and forth a bit). part of the reasoning is to avoid unnecessary redundancy. trivial and unimportant example: text rendering. currently if 
[10:16] <darkmatter> shoot. hope that didn't pass the cutoff
[10:16] <kwwii> hehe, it did
[10:17] <darkmatter> last bit was?
[10:17] <kwwii> yepp
[10:17] <kwwii> I think I get the basis of it
[10:17] <kwwii> you want something which is easier to use, with something like a gui editor
[10:24] <darkmatter> kwwii: aesthetics are only part of the reasoning, but yes, partly. but still on the aesthetic issue. gtk is fairly limited in what it can doin a so-called vanilla state. adding a higher degree of control would allow for much consistency in interfaces. (I'm talking overall, not patterns. there are times when attempts at consistency in patterns make usability and usefulness fail, since they're always heavily dependent on the application
[10:30] <darkmatter> kwwii: at another level it ties into application development as well. as it is css based (I'd like to push beyond pure css when I (hopefully) do find the time to start), it also opens the possibility to 'transplant' the web. allowing for traditional 'runs in browser' crap to  become 'who needs a browser?'. it may sound akin to prism or such, but it's only because I generalized :P
[10:32] <thorwil> i do think browser/desktop should be bridged with common framework, resulting in apps that don't care as much as possible
[10:33] <thorwil> i also think glade and the layout system it represents isn't even nearly good enough
[10:34] <thorwil> but i have doubts about CSS alone being suitable for gui layout
[10:34] <darkmatter> it's a matter of convergence. at the moment we have junk that runs in the browser, stripped down browsers that run junk in chromeless windows, local junk, and hybrid junk. part of the plan is to make that interaction less fractured and allow for better integration where it makes sense. I'm not saying do it everywhere
[10:35] <kwwii> darkmatter: that sounds like an interesting approach long term...sounds *really* hard to do though :p
[10:35] <darkmatter> thorwil: it's not css alone. thus the 'advanced' part ;)
[10:36] <thorwil> kwwii: you mean it doesn't sound like a solo show? ;)
[10:36] <darkmatter> kwwii: yeah. but that's the general rule. things that in the end are worthwhile are never easy
[10:39] <thorwil> darkmatter: i think a better layout system should borrow from parametric CAD. for example a button would have anchor points on all 4 corners, plus at least an additional one for the basline of its label. add relations to the anchor points to make them line up vertically or horizontally
[10:39] <darkmatter> kwwii: I'd go deeper, but then I'd have to get into the entire plan.. the inklings of which mysteriously popped into what was supposed to be a strictly gtk related discussion :P
[10:39] <thorwil> darkmatter: add a rule system to determine the spacing between the elements layed out via anchor points
[10:41] <kwwii> darkmatter: I think in order to make those kinds of changes you would need to be very involved in gtk development
[10:42] <thorwil> the anchor system should have 2 main benefits over the current tables: no need to know the layout before creating widgets in the editor, as you can start with widgets and then do layout. no isolated areas due to separate tables and expanders
[10:46] <darkmatter> thorwil: I've no issues with CAD or similar, and forgive me if the 'css extension' led you on, perhaps not the best choice of words, since css is only part of the idea. but in general the idea is to conserve both code and ui. improve what already exists, if improving it isn't feasible for a given set of functions then just replace those bits. keep unnecessary redundancy to an absolute minimum and avoid i entirely whenever possible
[10:48] <darkmatter> if we already have a specific functionality, don't replicate it, hook into it
[10:51] <darkmatter> sure, I speak a lot from aesthetics/UX, it's the artist/designer in me, but I'm more than just a ui guy. the definition of 'design' to me is a singular subject. it is the environment at all levels, both structural and conceptual.
[10:52] <darkmatter> it is widely agreed to be the proper approach (which I just happen to believe wholeheartedly in), but it's also generally avoided like the plague, since initially it does encompass a much higher degree of engineering
[11:11] <darkmatter> kwwii: I agree about the involvement with gtk dev 'if' it catches on, but the extension is more for proof of concept. I still need to bounce ideas around a few heads. but basically, whatever final form it takes, it'll be extension >proof of concept app (even if it's just an alternative gui-level bit glued to an existing application). think of it like a flash mockup, only more substantial.
[11:14] <darkmatter> it's an entire next-gen environment concept I'm working on. a lot of stuff, the gui level is just a tiny part. It's less about making it a reality (though that goal is the ultimate dream) than sparking ingenuity. reach for the stars, land on the moon.
[11:36] <kwwii> darkmatter: sounds pretty cool, good idea....hope it's not too much work for one person though
[11:40] <darkmatter> kwwii: there's a few other who are interested in helping out. not enough for anything large scale, but even if only one or two items get realized (necessary compromises included) I'll be pleased
[11:45] <darkmatter> kwwii: as far as the convergence bit goes. I remember the days when we actually had more convergence between the web and the local system. it always felt right. then it got killed. now a few bits of lovely have brought some of it back (not linux specifically, but in general), and it 'still' feels right
[11:46] <kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, true
[11:47] <kwwii> I agree with the concept but I cannot imagine how much work it'll be :p
[11:52] <darkmatter> like the really old msn, circa 98ish. msn may suck, but the old interfaces (one was filer-ish, the other was kinda like a media center' were spot on for the era. today there's things like skimmer (its an air app, so should run on linux), all kinds of third party WPF stuff for windows, all are remarkable for what they do. apple junk. there's even 'prior art' from nix that was borrowed by the 'evil empires' :P
[12:00] <kwwii> hehe, right
[12:04] <darkmatter> convergence died initial because at the time there wasn't a 'market' if you will. the net was young and full of hope, but hadn't yet found it's place. the 'market' exists today, but we've gotten caught in the 'go to the web' mentality, like the cloud (aka the glorified dumb terminal) I'd rather have a smart terminal that is even smarter when it is connected
[12:06] <darkmatter> I mean, our libraries aren't music/pictures/documents. our library is whatever information is currently at our disposal. regardless of it's location.
[12:10] <kwwii> I tihnk that part of the fault was the technological status at the time and the misunderstanding of how things would progress
[12:10] <darkmatter> aye
[12:24] <darkmatter> one of the parts I do intend to realize is Sojourn. the general concept is a library/activity center of sorts. atm it taked light inspiration frome the slab, as there is a panel applet for shortcuts (activities proper instead of an activities button as a list of apps) applets current design direction is two paned clickable categories (which open the appropriate 'location') in the left pane, the right pane displays bookmarks for each c
[12:26] <darkmatter> the home 'page' of the main application would contain you're favorite bits, most recent messages, notification, etc. similar to the way home is on the web, but encompassing local as well. blah blah
[12:26] <darkmatter> you get the idea
[12:27]  * vish googles darkmatter's blog...! damn...! isnt one yet :/
[12:28] <darkmatter> it'll come. finishing up some crap
[12:29] <vish> darkmatter: you better start one soon , else I'm gonna check the logs and post all your ideas as mine ;p
[12:29] <darkmatter> :P
[12:29]  * vish lazy to think up new ideas ;)
[12:34] <darkmatter> vish: but yes. the main concept/interface collection has a name now :P the dream is still to have an environment devoid of applications in the traditional sense, focusing on what you're doing instead, but reality is about compromise, and ya gotta start somewhere. which is the root of the concept. plug it into existing applications without the need to think about the apps
[12:35] <darkmatter> I thought Sojourn appropriate, since it is about the journey (aka the user experience)
[12:38] <darkmatter> and the various definitions of sojourn also are appropriately applicable at various levels
[12:39] <darkmatter> various usages*
[12:39] <darkmatter> meh. tired brain, bad engrish *shrugs*
[12:44] <vish> argh! , i'm trying to send a mail to the gnome-shell list with a mockup , but mccann hasnt updated the shell to his latest app menu change :/
[12:46] <darkmatter> vish: and after sojourn is born I'm going on a sojourn ;p
[12:47] <vish> ;)
[12:47] <vish> lol  , reporter *breaks* "unbreakable" phone > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/8450385.stm
[12:47] <darkmatter> hehe
[17:06]  * Equiet_ found an usability enhancement in Nautilus (and others maybe).
[17:08] <Equiet_> When you set Nautilus to List view (I am not sure about english translation), you see the Last change in "Mon, October 2 2009, 14:13:15 CEST".
[17:09] <Equiet_> Wouldn't be better to show "2 months ago" and when you hover it, it will show the exact time?
[17:09] <Equiet_> What do you think?
[17:11] <thorwil> list view is correct
[17:12] <thorwil> there are several modes for displaying dates
[17:14] <thorwil> Equiet_: could be nice, not quite sure about it.
[17:37] <kwwii> I think that this idea has been discussed before, let me try to find info
[17:38] <kwwii> I think there is a bug report about it, sounds like a good idea to me...keep pushing ;)
[17:39] <kwwii> Equiet_: this would probably be a good discussion for #ayatana
[18:53] <thorwil> i have a "client" who can't decide between the first 4 on http://www.foopics.com/get/ce410753a0d21dc17701fcc231bdbf10/0
[18:53] <thorwil> any thoughts, especially regarding the F?
[18:55] <Equiet_> thorwil: Why there are so much elements? Can't be just one row?
[18:56] <thorwil> Equiet_: it's a logo for an audio plugin collection
[18:56] <thorwil> Equiet_: so the elements stand for it being a group/set/collection
[18:57] <Equiet_> I know, I read your blog.
[18:57] <Equiet_> But 3 circles are enough for me.
[18:57] <vish> Equiet_: blog?
[18:57] <Equiet_> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
[18:58] <vish> oh thorwil's
[18:58] <Equiet_> thorwil: But if only these are choices, I like 2B.
[18:59]  * vish likes 3B ;)
[18:59] <vish> oops! noooo
[19:01] <thorwil> is anyone here reminded of other symbols when looking at this set?
[19:04] <Equiet_> Just facebook and one tool used for measurement.
[19:06] <vish> bah.. what the hell 3B seems ok
[19:07] <thorwil> vish: it's out of the game
[19:07] <thorwil> Equiet_: ok, thanks!
[19:08] <vish> oh! you meant first 4! i was thinking why you said 4 and the rows had numbers upto four o.0
[19:09] <vish> heh , i like the 1b from the logo2 batch :D
[19:09] <vish> thorwil: Equiet_: which is your fav pick ?
[19:10] <thorwil> vish: one of the 4. seems we have a decision: 2B
[19:12] <vish> thorwil: i meant from the whole batch you have in your blog
[19:12] <vish> just asking :)
[19:12] <thorwil> vish: yes, that's what i meant, too
[19:20] <vish> ew.. my head hurts at looking at all those logos ! :/
[19:20] <vish> ;p
[19:23] <Equiet_> Is https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts still acutal? I guess I could submit there my little Nautilus enhancement.
[19:24] <vish> Equiet_: oh no you dont! i'll invalidate it ;)
[19:24] <vish> j/k
[19:34] <vish> Equiet_: the only problem with changing everything to 2months and so , would be too many files would have been edited 2months ago and there would be no way to sort them out
[19:35] <vish> everything in the 30 month period would be grouped together
[19:39] <Equiet_> vish: I don't understand.
[19:42] <vish> Equiet_: list view allows you to sort the files according to the field[currently according to the date modified/saved ,etc...] , if several files only display 2months ago , 1 month ago , those files would just be grouped together and they would not make it easy if the user wants to find something on a particular date
[19:43] <vish> also , the file edited probably 35 days ago would be next to the file edited 55days ago...
[19:43] <vish> so the date sort wont really be easy...
[19:43] <vish> *UNLESS*
[19:44] <vish> the sort is done by the edit date but only displays the 1month/2month
[19:44] <vish> But even with that the sort order would not be easy to recognize for the user :(
[19:45] <Equiet_> vish: No... It would be sorted good.
[19:45] <Equiet_> Well, I don't know how Nuatilus, but in PHP I use sort by timestamp.
[19:46] <Equiet_> And that timestamp is changed do "3 months ago" when it's being displayed.
[19:47] <Equiet_> (Database has timestamp, view/template has the modified one.)
[19:47] <vish> Equiet_: how does it arrange a file done 95 days ago and 115 days ago? both as 3months ago?
[19:47] <Equiet_> Yes.
[19:48] <Equiet_> But 95 days will be first.
[19:50] <vish> Equiet_: thats where the problem arises... it wont be clear to the user that the sort was since the earlier file was due to it being 95 days earlier... *however* .. it would work if the date was 3months back... i would prefer atleast stuff for 90days to show the date.. beyond which could probably do what you suggest
[19:52] <Equiet_> vish: There won't be just months. I propose to have "5 seconds ago", "5 minutes ago", "5 hours ago", "5 weeks ago", "5 months ago", "5 years ago".
[19:53] <vish> hmm...
[19:54] <Equiet_> Or look at last.fm comments. F.e. http://www.last.fm/music/Mike+Oldfield .
[19:58] <vish> Equiet_: while it works for the comments page , where the date/time is not really essential[rather it is very ideal for comments]... it would not be ideal as you are now not showing important metadata.  showing 3 months ago is probably easy for user... but when you say 14days  , 28daysago , you have to calculate the date , which is not easy to do immediately
[19:59] <vish> for those it is better to show the actual date , rather than make the user think/calculate the date
[20:00]  * Equiet_ got new idea.
[20:01] <vish> if the user was looking for a file done say 4th jan... he could just look at the file date and know it ... if it was displayed as 8days ago.. he has to think first and know how many days ago 4th jan was before finding the file
[20:01]  * vish awaits
[20:01] <Equiet_> Take the drag'n'drop window to Calendar on top panel changes the format of time.
[20:01] <Equiet_> I know, it's not possible. :(
[20:05] <Equiet_> Or when you search in folder, it doesn't take only file names, but also size, date and type.
[20:05] <Equiet_> It would be great to type "image" and you will see only images.
[20:06] <vish> Equiet_: i think zeitgeist allows you to do that...
[23:09] <wolter> Hi, can anybody tell me which would be the best method to save a page-size png image into a pdf document without having it lose quality?