[02:03] * humphreybc returns after walking miles across town in the pouring rain clutching onto a HP printer [02:39] * humphreybc printer great success [02:56] * humphreybc is going to start changing to the new ToC [03:11] * humphreybc has almost finished overhauling the wiki table of contents [03:24] jmburgess now would be a good time to start cracking on the latex change [03:30] hm, we need to fix up the left margin at some point. [03:30] the fact that the paragraphs are so indented means that we're losing a lot of space [03:32] humphreybc, in the new ToC structure, where do we stick in "getting online"? [03:32] chapter 4? [03:32] well, it's sort of going to be included when we talk about Firefox [03:32] yeah, but that's not how people think about it. [03:32] they think "i just installed this, now i want to make sure i'm on the internet" [03:33] maybe in chapter 4, we can make it more task-based? [03:33] sure [03:33] we have to refine each chapter [03:33] still talk about the same applications, but instead of breaking it up with application-titled subsections, make them use-case based subsections [03:33] like "getting online", "browsing the web", "using email", etc [03:33] yup, and with the notes etc we should be able to cover little things quite well [03:34] exactly [03:35] this blueprint stuff is messy [03:40] you're trying to move them around? [03:40] ya [03:40] I have to reassign authors [03:40] but the thing is [03:40] we have like one chapter totally disappearing [03:40] another two chapters are being combined into one [03:40] and then we have like two entirely new chapters [03:40] so now we have some unassigned stuff [03:40] and one person loses out :S [03:42] well, we have enough people on the project to assign multiple people per blueprint [03:43] in fact, i think we really should -- otherwise it a) will lead to some chapters not being done, b) will bottleneck on one person, c) will be too much work for any one person [03:43] what if you just scrap the existing chapter blueprints, and create new ones, reassigning after creation to the folks who were already working on the content? [03:44] (methinks this would have been much easier to do on a wiki instead, until content got more locked down) [03:46] hmm [03:46] we'll have a tonne of blueprints then [03:46] i think we need to use the whiteboard more [03:46] whiteboard? [03:46] we need to establish teams for each chapter - the author(s) and then at least one editor. [03:46] the editor needs to be set as the "approver" [03:46] whiteboard - on the blueprints. to communicate [03:47] i would imagine editing should really be done across the whole thing, though. [03:47] if we treat each chapter as its own team and assign at least one author, then one editor and they work together closely [03:47] well Jamin is in charge of the editing team [03:47] there will be only 3 or 4 editors in total I would think [03:47] i've done a lot of work in Wikipedia... this isn't really that unlike an article there. [03:47] To be honest I don't want to fiddle with the blueprints any more [03:48] I think we need better communication within the blueprints [03:48] fair enough [03:48] so: whiteboard :) [03:48] I think if we can get an editing team of anywhere between 1 - 4 people, headed by one person who knows what they're doing, and then everyone gets on the same wavelength, then they can sort out what chapters they want to edit [03:49] then they'll be the link between the project heads and the authors [03:49] so the authors will work, the editors will edit and then when the authors are done they'll tell the editor and the editor will request feedback from one of the project admins. the editors and authors will communicate via the whiteboard and work closely together [03:50] I think that should work :S [03:50] i've yet to send an email about this though, still needs more thought and discussion. Plus I want to sort out this new ToC before I give everyone information overload on procedure! [03:52] humphreybc: ping [03:52] hi [03:52] humphreybc: hi. i might be able to help with some of ch 4. [03:52] oh awesome [03:53] humphreybc: specifically ubuntu one and rhythmbox [03:53] do you know a lot about them? [03:53] humphreybc: i'm the product manager for ubuntu one and have been the business guy working on the upcoming rhythmbox music store [03:54] oh really? are you a canonical employee? [03:54] humphreybc: i'm also chatting with the Ubuntu docs guys about the best way to go for documentation in these areas so i'm hoping to take care of two tasks here [03:54] humphreybc: yes [03:54] awesome [03:55] yep sure well jump in there and assign yourself to the blueprint. You're probably too busy to tackle all of the other apps [03:55] but there will be others interested to help out [03:55] humphreybc: sure. i'll try :) [03:55] I don't suppose you have a blog on the planet do you .... [03:56] humphreybc: not a personal one but the ubuntu one blog might show up there. [03:56] okay cool. we've been trying to get a member/canonical employee to give us a bit of a shout out on the planet ;) [03:57] humphreybc: gotcha. i'll see what i can do :) [03:57] awesome xD [03:57] well welcome to the project! [03:57] thanks [03:57] we're actually in the middle of changing the ToC around dramatically [03:57] ToC = Table of Contents [03:57] cool [03:57] So things might be a bit hectic for the next few days [03:58] we'd also appreciate your feedback on the proposed title pages, they're on the screenshots page of the wiki :) [03:58] only if you've got time. I know Canonical folks are busy [03:58] humphreybc: howz this ? or you want bigger ? > http://imagebin.ca/view/eyotBuWB.html [03:58] ok. i'll take a look [03:58] humphreybc, i'm going to jump on chapter 4 as well. [03:58] Awsome stuff Ilya. Ilya, Matt, Matt, Ilya. You two will be working together :P [03:59] cool [03:59] mattgriffin, hi [03:59] vish: the size is right, but put the whole thing a bit lower down [03:59] IlyaHaykinson: hi [03:59] matt and Ilya, you'll need to make extensive use of the whiteboard [03:59] because you'll have to decide which app you'll each do [03:59] or which aps [03:59] apps* [03:59] humphreybc: lower down would meant the eye would be lower than the text , which would be a bit awkward :( [03:59] hm, i know someone else at canonical... lrichardson [04:00] mean* [04:00] oh yeah and mattgriffin: are you actually at the Canonical offices or do you work from home? [04:00] humphreybc: let me show you how it would be lower down the [04:00] humphreybc: work from home - texas [04:00] mattgriffin: okay, no worries. If you worked at the head office I was going to ask you if you could raise the project in casual conversation around the water cooler.... :P [04:01] I know lot of people who are at UT [04:01] IlyaHaykinson: don't know lrichardson but i know his boss [04:01] humphreybc: cool. i'm based in dallas [04:01] ah. i don't remember what he's working on... one of the backend projects, i think. [04:02] i went to college with him at UCLA [04:02] oh awesome, yeah they're all in austin [04:02] IlyaHaykinson: he's on the launchpad team [04:03] cool so matt, you're obviously not one of these skeptics who think this project is a waste of time? [04:05] humphreybc: to be honest i'm still on the fence a bit so i want to learn more... but time is short so i don't learning will mean contributing :) ... i'll definitely bring it up with my colleagues at work tomorrow and ensure they know about the project. [04:05] humphreybc: lower > http://imagebin.ca/view/NU8MEl.html , also note the space above the head is too empty [04:05] humphreybc: sorry... confusing response... time is short so learning will require contributing :) [04:06] mattgriffin: awesome stuff! :) [04:06] humphreybc: since we have the eye, if it is better aligned with the text it be ideal [04:06] vish true but it isn't that noticeable. I definitely prefer the lower one [04:08] humphreybc: hmm.. ,well , i'll send you both incase you change your mind and you can decide later too [04:08] okay [04:08] put them on the wiki [04:08] ah sure [04:08] it's not up to me to decide, it's up to everyone :) [04:09] remember we still have 4 months till we actually NEED a title page [04:09] so we might not decide for quite a while [04:09] humphreybc, do you have an example of folks using the whiteboard? [04:09] it just seems to be one big textbox, rather than a back-and-forth communication tool, imho [04:09] yeah it is [04:09] you need to basically add to each thing [04:10] don't overwrite what the last person says [04:10] you're welcome to commandeer a part of the wiki too if you like [04:10] under "blueprints" [04:10] hm, kind of sucky. [04:10] yeah it is a pain [04:10] yeah, i think the wiki is a better approach. i'll do just that. [04:10] sorry, my wiki{pedia,news} roots are strong. [04:10] okay so under "blueprints" have a new heading called "Chapter 4" or something [04:10] and write whatever you need to [04:11] then update the specification link on the blueprint [04:11] yeah, i'll take care of it. i'll keep a summary on the main page, and take the details further in. [04:11] awesome [04:11] main blueprint page, i mean [04:11] use the whiteboard too [04:11] even if it's just to point people to the wiki [04:12] hi humphreybc [04:12] hey wolter [04:12] did you read my messages the other day? [04:12] well, first of all, how are you? [04:12] yeah wolter i think i did [04:12] I could've used the memoserv if you were offline [04:12] but anyway, thanks for doing so [04:13] as for myself, I just read about the big readjustment taking place [04:13] ya [04:13] it's busy [04:13] Going through my other mails right now, but I think its good [04:13] how about the html format? [04:13] can latex code be rendered as html? [04:13] uh we could possibly render one at some point [04:13] but PDF is priority now [04:20] in fact, i think this new toc is a MAJOR overhaul and that it is doing great wealth to the project [04:22] re HTML, I think the easiest way to do this conversion would be manually... [04:22] perhaps a simple ubuntu-manual-specific script can help do the conversion. [04:22] yeah [04:23] have you guys thought about mallard? [04:23] but looks like existing latex to html conversion systems are kind of suboptimal and produce old html [04:23] guys at GNOME are writting documentation with mallard and they say its the big thing [04:23] better than wiki they say [04:23] and well, wiki is like easy html [04:23] would you be interested humphreybc ? [04:24] http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/projectmallard/ [04:25] its aim is to create the best topic-based help [04:25] so not really targeting book-like forms [04:25] Wow, I can't say at all I dislike what vish has done with my lynx :) [04:25] Hmm? [04:25] in mallard? [04:25] i'll check it out [04:25] oh [04:25] sure when we get this PDF out and the main content complete, it'll be easy to port the manual to other file formats [04:26] yeah, I never new much about it [04:26] So... now that the artwork jobs are pretty much at rest, I would like to assign myself to the software and packaging topic and see what I can do there [04:26] same goes for creating a Kubuntu and Xubuntu manual subsidary of our one. It would only require few changes to the desktop manger stuff [04:26] how about that humphreybc ? [04:28] hang on i'm talking to Jono Bacon and Matt [04:29] wow ill be here :) [04:31] can anybody tell me how to branch files into an already existing directory? [04:32] perhaps bzr branch branchname . ? [04:32] assuming you're in that directory? [04:32] * IlyaHaykinson is making a totally wild guess with this one [04:33] IlyaHaykinson, yeah, I thought about that [04:33] but then bzr complains about . already existing [04:33] I don't know why it doesn't tell me something I don't know [04:34] also, has anybody commited a revision with the new organization? [04:34] I just pulled the latest revision and it is honors the old toc [04:35] not yet, i think jmburgess was going to work on it (?) [04:35] oh ok [04:35] yeah, the changes started as of an hour ago today, right? [04:36] could I help in anything? [04:36] regarding those I mean [04:36] well, maybe I could start writing a proposed chapter 6 [04:36] after all, 6 is my fav number [04:36] which has nothing to do, regardless to say [04:36] well, check out the new list of chapters, compare with the list of blueprints, and add yourself wherever you think you can help [04:37] i think that we'll want to have small teams per chapter [04:37] so find the other person on the chapter, if there's one already, and figure out some way to collaborate (i'm using a wiki page for chap4, for example) [04:37] oh ok [04:38] so we're setting aside like unusual collaboration methods meanwhile, all right [04:38] i'm going to check if there is some wiki for chapter 6, but in the new toc humphreybc posted it said there was no-one working on chapter 6 [04:38] i will create the document if it doesn't actually exist, nonetheless [04:39] wolter: no there isn't anything about 6, just create a sub page like IlyaHaykinson has done with 4 [04:40] Done :) [04:40] I will send a proposal to the mailing list [04:42] IlyaHaykinson: you could probably add a hyperlink from the main ToC on the wiki to your sub page [04:43] sure; i added one from the blueprints page, but will add one from the ToC as well. [04:43] neat [04:44] nah its not that much of a good proposal [04:44] guys: http://lifehacker.com/5441494/ubuntu-1004-to-include-beginners-manual [04:46] hm. actually, i don't know if Ubuntu One really belongs in Chapter 4 [04:47] seems like it's more of a chapter 7 thing [04:47] seeing how backup is really part of maintenance. [04:48] "and is, as you might imagine, being written in wiki form, so anyone can contribute. What newcomer topics and how-tos would you like to see covered in an Ubuntu manual?" what? that ain't true [04:49] unless one looks at Ubuntu One as more of a synchronization tool, of course. [04:49] thoughts? [04:50] wolter: my goal in life is to never care what a journalist writes. i've never had an article about what i've done -- even if it was in a prominent newspaper, like Los Angeles Times or Wall Street Journal -- come out with no factual errors [04:50] IlyaHaykinson, well yeah, indeed [04:50] and lifehacker certainly isn't the height of journalistic standards :) [04:51] But it just makes me mad how people that unobservant have a place writing public articles [04:51] Well, not that dramatic, but anyway [04:51] :) [04:51] wolter: I emailed the reporter just now and offered to do an interview to clear up some confusion. [04:53] humphreybc, you're awesome [04:53] haha i do my best :) [04:55] hm. humphreybc, any thoughts on Ubuntu One in chap 4 vs chap 7? [04:55] Um, ask mattgriffin :) [04:56] It IS a default app [04:56] mattgriffin, ping [04:56] and it doesn't need to necessarily be used for backing up only [04:56] it can be used for file sharing too [04:56] sure, but... if we're approaching this from the perspective of use cases... [04:56] IlyaHaykinson: yo [04:57] mattgriffin, are you positioning Ubuntu One as more of a backup system? in which case it may belong more under "maintenance"? [04:58] or more of a sync/file sharing app, in which case maybe placement in chap 4 is fine. [05:01] IlyaHaykinson: sync is the principal benefit.... but it is achieved with online backup. for 10.04, there will be a desktop application (Ubuntu One Client Application - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/lucid-ubuntu-one-client-app) that will enable users to manage how Ubuntu One works for them.... so ch4 seems like a good fit. [05:02] alright, sounds good. [05:02] cool :) [05:02] is the desktop app in alpha1 already? [05:02] i guess i can fire up virtualbox and take a look :-) [05:03] IlyaHaykinson: not yet. we're keeping track of progress on the Whiteboard... it currently says "[dobey] GTK+ U1 app: INPROGRESS" [05:03] by the way if anyone wants to follow me on twitter, i post a lot about the manual and ubuntu in general: http://twitter.com/humphreybc [05:04] mattgriffin, gotcha, thanks. [05:04] fyi, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Chapter4 for an outline of the chapter as I see it. [05:05] IlyaHaykinson: np. [05:05] * mattgriffin time to sleep. later everyone. [05:08] humphreybc, followed [05:09] ugh, XChat has "," as the default nick completion character. how counter-intuitive. should be ":" [05:12] ha [05:12] I use Pidgin :) [05:14] IlyaHaykinson, i like the comma :) [05:14] Ilya, nice work on the Chapter 4 sub page [05:14] *sigh* i use pidgin on one box, xchat on this box, and mIrc on the windows box. i guess i have issues. [05:15] :) [05:15] wolter: :) [05:15] humphreybc: thx [05:15] hm, what this new "Me" menu? [05:16] i see a reference to it in some spec, but the details are in canonical's private documents repository [05:16] ohh. that's the menu in the upper right [05:17] i.e. the shutdown/restart/status change/etc menu [05:18] yup [05:22] if anybody wants to check my work and/or provide feedback, visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Chapter6 [05:22] I am working on chapter 6 and set myself already as an assignee [05:22] cool wolter i'll check it in about 30 mins, just going to have some dinner [05:22] * humphreybc runs off to the dairy to get milk for his pasta [06:26] hello, [06:26] may i ask [06:32] * humphreybc is back [06:36] adahendra1: what would you like to ask? [07:04] hey humphreybc not to annoy you, but could you check my wip of the chapter 6 if you have nothing else to do now? [07:08] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Chapter6 just saved [07:09] so wolter are you writing it on the wiki? [07:10] or is that just a guide? [07:12] humphreybc, well, i'm drafting it on the wiki [07:12] should it be a guide instead? [07:12] ok [07:12] that's cool [07:12] no no you can draft on the wiki [07:12] go for it [07:12] i'll read it in a sec [07:37] anyone know how to rebuild your apps menu? [07:37] I remember there was some file in your home dir that you need to delete [07:42] humphreybc, in the gnome panel? [07:42] yep [07:43] Hm.. roughly, I would just make a new user and replace my ~/.local/share/applications/ folder with his [07:43] but I think that you could just delete that same directory to see what happens. Of course, keep a backup copy. [07:44] yeah i'll delete it [07:44] time to log out and back in [07:46] that worked [07:46] cheers :) [07:47] nice :) [07:56] hmm [07:56] well that's all good but I just reinstalled wine and I can't seem to get it to appear in my apps menu [08:04] blah [08:04] i'm probably going to do a fresh install soon [08:11] Lucid alpha I suppose? [08:11] humphreybc: ~/.config/menus/applications.menu [08:11] nah karmic [08:12] i wish when you uninstall a program it would remove the . directory in your home [08:12] oops wrong file! [08:12] like I just went through and got rid of all these old . folders [08:12] humphreybc, then you want to purge them [08:12] and not just remove [08:13] [# apt-get purge] removes configuration files [08:13] i'm pretty sure i've been doing that... I choose "Complete removal" [08:13] oh [08:13] in synaptic [08:13] ahh.. you use synaptic [08:14] yeah.. I wish programs used ~/.config/ or ~/.local/config instead of putting their .folders all around my home dir [08:14] such a mess [08:14] yeah [08:14] i need to do a fresh install to test out my fresh install script [08:15] humphreybc: have you checked ~/.gnome2 ? [08:15] nope [08:15] i might do a fresh install tonight.... [08:15] all i wanna do is get photoshop working [08:15] lol [08:15] ;p [08:16] how stable is lucid alpha 1 for people? [08:16] vish, is .config/menus still used? [08:16] my application.menu file seems so outdated, [08:16] because I want to use the 2.6.32 kernel, which is what i'm using atm on karmic [08:16] humphreybc: very stable surprisingly [08:16] i might install alpha 2 on my main laptop [08:16] but it depends on hardware ofcourse ;) [08:16] my hardware is pretty good with linux [08:17] apart from my ati card, but i use the free drivers for that which kick ass with the new 2.6.32 kernel [08:17] humphreybc: one thing you will notice is how horrible the new and improved nautilus looks :/ [08:17] oh? [08:18] humphreybc: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png [08:20] humphreybc: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png [08:20] wolter: i had similar problems as humphrey and i removed a file and everything was reset... but i cant remember what o.0 [08:20] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=619974 [08:20] s/what/whic [08:20] lol [08:20] uh what three panes [08:20] vim guy? [08:21] see that thread [08:22] heh , maybe i was right after all > ~/.config/menus/applications.menu [08:22] that file is a bit cleaner for me ;) [08:24] * humphreybc thinks it's pretty cool that he has 26,000 karma [08:26] well, thats a lot of karma [08:26] foor me at least [08:26] i know it's crazy [08:26] is it all because of the manual? [08:27] oh also, if any of you have some time, at some point i'd like it if you could add a testimonial to my wiki page, for when I apply for membership sometime later this year :) [08:27] wolter: yeah most of it is from the manual. I don't know why you get so much from specification tracking. [08:27] Oh I will do so today later [08:27] now i'm going offline soon [08:28] okahy [08:35] Ilya are you there? [08:38] Does anyone know why when I right-click my name in the room list and choose 'info', it tells me my "real name" is purple? [08:38] wow computer just had a meltdown [08:39] oh no it violently ran out of battery and for some reason ubuntu didn't tell me [08:43] jamin are you using pidgin? [08:43] yep [08:43] in the buddy list [08:43] click accounts [08:43] then go to your IRC one [08:43] find "edit" [08:44] "edit account" sorry [08:44] click the "advanced" tab [08:44] ah yeah i see it now [08:45] does anyone ever feel they're getting too fast for the computer? [08:45] i end up alt tabbing and ctrl tabbing through chrome windows so fast sometimes ubuntu can't keep up [08:46] hehe yeah although it beats windows! I was using it today at work and it was as slow as a donkey! [08:46] yeah anything beats windows [08:46] can't wait till friday my time, i'm going to get the lucid alpha 2 and do a completely fresh install on my laptop [08:47] then i'm going to try out the nifty fresh install script [08:47] whats this install script? [08:47] is it one you created? [08:47] yeah Ryan gave it to me a few days ago and i've played with it [08:52] PING [08:52] er [08:52] jaminday, hi [08:52] lol hello [08:52] hey there - just got your email [08:52] jaminday: re purple, that's just the name of Pidgin's underlying connection library [08:53] * IlyaHaykinson_ notices wolter isn't here... his checkin broke the build :) [08:53] ah yes ok - yeah humphreybc showed me how to change it [08:54] IlyaHaykinson: that's fine RE editing those chapters. I've made a note that you prefer chapters 3 & 5 so will just wait for others to respond then let you know [08:56] ok, sounds good. i'll have my hands full researching / writing chapter 4, i'm sure. [08:57] yeah definitely [09:01] btw, i wonder if we'll have to cover https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeMenu -- if it makes it into Lucid [09:05] IlyaHaykinson: yeah that's a good point [09:06] i guess there could be a number of changes we will need to keep on top of as it gets closer to release [09:10] that probably goes for all chapters [09:10] one of the reasons i'm going to start using lucid on my main computer :) [09:10] so i can see the changes! [09:18] i'm not nearly that brave, at work or on my netbook. [09:18] but i think i have a spare, nearly-headless thinkpad somewhere at work... hm. [09:20] heh well hopefully lucid plays nice [09:22] no me neither [09:23] i'll probably wait till at least beta then put it on one of my machines [09:23] that's what i normally do but if i'm going to do a fresh install why not lucid :P [09:39] alright, i'm off to bed. l8r folks. [09:41] night [10:24] night all - off to bed [11:24] bah, no pushes for ages, then the moment I do something, someone pushes and I have to fix the merge :/ [11:27] hahahaha [11:27] damn [11:28] i wonder if there is a way for us to "lock" the branch while we work on it [11:29] there is a way to work around, it's just I'm more used to git than bzr [11:29] this is the whole point of DVCSs [11:30] DVCS? [11:32] distributed version control systems [11:32] ie next gen source control, bzr, git and hg as opposed to cvs/svn [11:33] ah ha [11:33]