humphreybcyeah we probably could00:01
humphreybchave you all gone here and marked the bug as affecting you?00:10
manualbotLaunchpad bug 505873 in example-content "Ubuntu Manual for example content in Lucid" [Wishlist,New]00:10
wolterhumphreybc, wouldn't you prefer the manual to be in the desktop?00:43
humphreybci would00:47
humphreybcthis is just the first step00:47
humphreybcif we get it as example content then it will be easy to ask them to add a link on the desktop00:48
wolteryeah I thought that was your intention :) just making sure00:49
humphreybci also want a big fat link here: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download00:49
humphreybcright beside the big green "download ubuntu" button I want another button that says "download the official manual"00:50
wolterThat'd be so nice00:54
wolterhumphreybc, I have a couple of questions00:54
wolter#1 requires you to read a piece of my chapter blueprint00:55
wolter1. Do I need to meticulously describe how to get the basic operations done in applications such as Software Sources, Ubuntu Software Center and Synaptic Package Manager, or rather just explain the purpose of each?00:55
wolterthe other one i don't remember00:57
wolterbut I would like to suggest a section in the advanced part of the manual to explain how to build packages00:57
wolterand how simple it can be00:57
humphreybcwolter: um software center is pretty easy, you could probably just say something like "search for the application you require or find it under the categories and then click install to let Ubuntu do the rest" - I think they're working on the software center in Lucid to make it even easier01:07
humphreybcSoftware Sources and Synaptic you will have to go into a bit more detail01:08
humphreybcbut not a lot of detail01:08
humphreybcand as for building packages, that's too advanced even for the advanced section I'm afraid01:08
wolteroh ok01:08
humphreybcyeah sorry01:09
humphreybchow big do we think the PDF will be?01:15
wolterwell, i think about 40 pages?01:15
wolterdon't you think?01:15
wolterthe last time i built the manual it was 21 pages long, but not at all finished as we all know01:15
humphreybcno i mean size01:16
humphreybcit's about 150kb at the moment01:16
humphreybcbut with images01:16
humphreybcand another 20 pages or so01:16
humphreybcit'll be what, 2mb?01:16
* humphreybc is talking to Jorge Castro who packages the example content for the releases01:18
* humphreybc he says we need to squeeze every kilobyte out of it 01:20
* humphreybc "me:  And you personally, think it's a good project?"01:21
* humphreybc "Jorge:  yeah of course!we definately need it!"01:22
* humphreybc has registered a new blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/optimization01:25
wolternice work humphreybc :)01:37
humphreybcwe're on our way!01:39
wolteri will send an article that may seem interesting to all the manual writers to the mailing lists01:46
wolterhumphreybc, do you think I should write always with a semi-paranoic point of view?01:52
humphreybcwhat do you mean?01:52
wolterlike, in deb packages i should warn people to not install every deb package they see01:52
wolterbecause anybody could make one01:52
humphreybcyeah that would be a good idea01:53
humphreybcnice link02:06
humphreybci wonder if we should do some research02:24
humphreybci might start a thread on UF with 5 questions02:26
humphreybcfor content02:26
humphreybcsomething like "If you could definitely have one topic in the manual, what would it be?" and "Would you prefer lots of screenshots to show you how to do things, or would you prefer step by step guides?" etc02:27
humphreybcbut i'd need help from the team to formulate five good useful questions02:27
humphreybcand of course we will have to aim it at Ubuntu newcomers - so we'll have something like "Remember to back when you first started using Ubuntu, and answer these questions as if you were that person back then:" or something02:28
humphreybcas well as putting it in the absolute beginners forum02:28
humphreybcso, guys, ideas for questions please02:28
humphreybcwhat do we NEED to know?02:30
humphreybcperhaps we could give them the list of default apps and ask them to put them in order of which should be highest priority/include the most detail02:31
wolterok, I think we should open a page for this in the wiki02:31
wolterwill you do it?02:31
wolterThere we can draft questions02:31
humphreybcokay cool02:31
humphreybci'll start a new apge02:31
humphreybchold up one sec02:32
wolterand separate from that, anybody can either roam the #ubuntu channel for frequent questions, the forums, or even make threads like the one you suggested02:32
humphreybctell me your ideas in here and i'll add them to the wiki (so we don't have two people editing the same page)02:35
humphreybcrefresh the page, i've just added some questions02:38
humphreybcoops screwed up the headers, refresh again now02:38
wolterwell, I have heard of tons of people having problems with their ATI video cards and with pulseaudio02:39
wolterso we could have a section for hardware problems02:39
humphreybci was sort of meaning for this questionnaire to just be a general thing02:39
humphreybcwith only a few questions02:39
wolteroh sorry02:39
humphreybcyou know, like it covers the whole concept of the manual02:39
wolterhm.. so, these questions will be part of some poll to get feedback from the community?02:39
humphreybcokay well let's start with what we need to know02:39
humphreybcwolter, yeah kind of02:40
humphreybcit's also a bit of a promo for the manual, and to get some more feedback from the community02:40
humphreybcwhat do we need to know from users that we don't know already?02:40
humphreybcwe need to know how highly they value say, getting online, compared to learning about Ubuntu One?02:40
wolterWell, what i just said may be a topic in the manual02:40
wolterlike a hardware support02:41
wolterand well, the stuff about pulseaudio could be covered in the troubleshooting section02:41
humphreybc that's chapter 402:42
wolterin fact (sorry for taking the topic temporarily elsewhere) i think we should have also a troubleshooting wiki page where we all suggest troubles to shoot described in the final troubleshooting chapter of the manual02:42
wolterbecause it wouldn't be intelligent to have problem-solving spread all around the manual02:43
wolterinstead we should have like, "if you have problems with this and that, look for a solution in chapter 8: troubleshooting. Anyway, lets get back to your topci02:43
wolterlet me think of other questions02:43
wolterabout how many questions would you like to have?02:43
humphreybcyeah i'll create a troubleshooting page soon02:45
humphreybcwell 5 - 8 questions02:46
humphreybcrefresh the page02:46
humphreybctell me what you think02:46
wolterI think the questions you have there are very useful02:47
humphreybccan you think of anything else?02:47
wolterhm, but I would include, in the first question, that the topic has to be ubuntu specific02:47
wolterfor example, to avoid stuff like "a how-to-use-audacity tutorial"02:47
wolterbecause there are people in the forums that don't know where they are standing02:47
wolterlet me think of a question myself02:48
wolterWhat do you dislike about ubuntu/02:48
wolterOr, if you were to stop using ubuntu,  why would it be02:49
wolter(also, how about a section in the wiki where we the team suggest potential content?)02:50
humphreybcI don't think that question is specific to us02:51
humphreybcit's more a general Ubuntu thing, rather than something to do with the manual02:51
humphreybcI suppose if we ask that02:51
humphreybcand get an overwhelming response like "lack of hardware documentation" then we know we need to make chapter 4 awesome02:52
humphreybcis that what you mean?02:52
humphreybcrefresh the page again, added another couple of questions. I think that's almost all we need, really. Unless you can think of some more, I might go ahead and create the UF thread.02:57
humphreybcnow we wait ....03:11
humphreybclook how many people we have actively working on the project: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+topcontributors03:43
wolteryes humphreybc that is what i meant :)04:05
wolterwe could get some important info04:05
woltersuch as, "ubuntu doesn't have an application for ______"04:05
wolterso if there actually is one, but it is buried deep, we can point that out04:06
wolterthat is, if it is general purpose04:06
wolterhumphreybc, sorry for my unanounced afk-ness04:06
wolterI had a break from writing chap 504:06
wolterbut i am now more oriented than i ever was04:06
humphreybcno probs04:07
wolterI will push something later, like in a couple of hourse or more04:07
wolterlol, I wish I saw myself on that list04:07
wolterAll i need to do is push my changes to get karma?04:08
humphreybcyeah you get branch stuff04:08
wolterhumphreybc, its getting damn good feedback the thread04:13
wolternice work04:13
wolterI am working on 1) of post #5 :)04:13
wolteri'm going afk right now, see you in an hour or such04:15
humphreybcyeah but wolter an admin moved our thread to the community cafe04:15
humphreybcI've emailed the forum council to find out why04:15
wolterhmm.. how about that.. the ubuntu pocket guide uses the corner strip to declare the version of ubuntu it is for05:15
wolterhumphreybc, have you thought about contacting the ubuntu pocket guide author?05:18
=== brishu is now known as angelus
wolterOh hi brishu, I read your post in the forums05:34
wolterDid you find out about the manual this way05:35
woltero angelus sorry05:35
angeluswolter, yup ...05:35
wolterare you going to help out?05:35
angelusi hope so ...05:35
angelusim looking at it and seeing if there is anything i can tackle ..05:36
wolterangelus, i am working in a big chapter.. chapter 505:36
wolteryou know where to find the table of contents?05:36
angelusgimme a second to get there05:37
angelusi'm at the chapter 5 page right now ... you are doing software packaging in Ubuntu am i correct ?05:38
woltera lot of people have suggested us to go big on that section05:39
wolterand the good thing is, its something really easy05:39
angelusyup i would say so ... especially since you can do thhe software management center ...05:40
angeluserr ... ignore that05:41
angelusi meant ... i can help out with the Software Center ... as well as little bit on How to add repositories the GUI way on to the software sources .. ,05:42
angelusid say go the vi /etc/apt/sources.list ... but i think there was an agreement to not get into too much of the terminal/CLI stuff till later in the book am i correct ??05:43
wolteryes well05:53
wolterI am writing for both methods sometimes05:53
wolterbut without getting into detail05:53
wolterhowever, if the team wants me to wipe those parts off I will05:54
* humphreybc is talking to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project on how we can get their support for the manual05:54
wolteroh nice05:59
* humphreybc the Learning project is officially backed by Canonical06:01
wolterhmm.. why can I not use uline?06:04
humphreybcwhat's uline?06:05
wolterunderline, according to the wikibook06:06
wolterI may have to review the writing format guidelines06:06
humphreybcmaybe it's deprecated06:06
wolterIs underline not used?06:06
humphreybci just use bold06:06
wolterI am using underline for addresses06:06
humphreybcwhere abouts/06:06
wolterlike Applications > Administration > Software Sources06:06
wolterwhat should I use?06:06
wolterand for file addresses06:06
wolteras in /etc/apt/sources.list06:06
humphreybcnot sure06:07
brishuwolter, i would italicize the addresses, or put them in a monospace06:08
wolteryeah, i will italize while I test06:08
wolterI think this things should be defined, if not already06:08
humphreybcthey might be06:09
humphreybctalk to joe?06:09
brishuwolter, i have the Ubuntu Pocket Guide in front of me and they are italicizing the Menu Addresses(i.e. Applications->Games->Tertis)06:10
brishuand monospace w/ dotted underline for folder addresses (/home)06:11
IlyaHaykinsoni recommend doing <b>Parent</b> &rarr; <b>Child</b> &rarr; etc06:11
IlyaHaykinsonwell, rather, the latex equivalent of these06:11
IlyaHaykinsonalso, since Software Sources already lets ppl edit the sources list, i don't think there's a strong need to tell ppl to edit a file manually...06:12
brishuIlyaHaykinson, but the easiest way to edit the sources normally is sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list, which we will need the terminal for ...06:14
wolterIlyaHaykinson, yeah, but I am just letting them know that software sources edits that file, in case they want to do anything with it... do you think I should not mention that?06:16
brishuid say a blurb on how to do it on the GUI, then a Link to the editing sources.list section(if we have one), for those interested06:16
IlyaHaykinsonhm, i wouldn't mention it. every tool in the GUI edits some file or another.06:17
wolterbrishu, well, we are not basing our manual on the ubuntu pocket guide06:17
brishusorry ...06:17
wolterhaha, no problem06:17
IlyaHaykinson i would avoid discussing manual editing of things unless that's really the only way to do something06:17
IlyaHaykinsonor unless it's vital for troubleshooting06:17
wolterI also think that whoever is making the style definitions should make a single \thing{} for command lines06:17
IlyaHaykinsonit's like a beginner's manual for Windows trying to direct people (even optionally) into the Registry06:18
humphreybctalk to jmburgess about style guide06:19
humphreybcor dutchie06:20
IlyaHaykinsonthere should probably be two different code commands -- one for inline filenames etc, and one for actual snippets (i.e. standalone code sections or the like)06:20
wolterlol, the last times i have tried to install something through software center I have not been able to do it without the authetification thing bothering me06:20
=== \vish is now known as vish
wolterwhat latex editors do you use?06:23
wolterso IlyaHaykinson you would say to not touch the details much when writting the manual?06:24
IlyaHaykinsonhm. my preference is for a medium level of detail -- not just tell people to use an application, but point them to a particular screen; explain the contents of the screen, but not go into telling people about every single button.06:26
IlyaHaykinsonbasically, tell them how to do the most common things so that it's possible to follow along. and then hint or make a cursory mention of the other, slightly more advanced things.06:27
wolterand what latex editor do you use?06:27
IlyaHaykinsonat least that's how i would approach it.06:27
IlyaHaykinsonoh. i use emacs.06:27
IlyaHaykinsoni guess i could as well use gedit here. i treat it as pure text, basically.06:27
wolterwhat can I do when there is a "text conflict" in a file?07:17
wolterbzr resolve FILE (for the record)07:20
humphreybceveryone check Planet Ubuntu in about 10 minutes07:53
wolterwow nice07:54
humphreybcI think you will be very pleased :)07:55
wolteris it in the fridge?07:58
wolteror some other blog?07:58
wolterI saw a bullet in the fridge in the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter #175 that says Ubuntu Manual Project08:00
humphreybcscroll down a wee bit08:08
brishuthe picture (is it the proposed-cover?) looks awesome. :)08:15
humphreybcyes it's a proposed cover08:17
humphreybcone of many proposed ones!08:17
brishukool :) ...08:19
humphreybcadd your feedback if you like08:21
wolterhumphreybc, nice!!08:27
woltermy lynx :)08:27
wolterhumphreybc, this feels so nice.. the project coming out so well08:29
humphreybcyep we're doing good08:31
humphreybcalthough I can't help but feel we're not getting the content done.... maybe it's just me because I haven't written in about a week08:32
humphreybcI hope it's not "all talk but no action" kind of thing08:32
humphreybcmight pay to have a look at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/PDFs08:55
wolterwell, I have done a big portion on chap 508:57
wolterits already on the branch08:57
wolterfor good :)08:57
wolterthis bzr tool is amazing08:57
humphreybcman wolter, nice work!09:05
wolterdo you think so?09:06
humphreybcyeah i will have a read soon!09:06
humphreybcdo have a look at that link i posted up above09:07
humphreybcwe can't copy it tho09:08
wolteroh haha, i thought you had read it and that was why you said "nice work!"09:09
woltershould I get student?09:10
wolterwow that document is big09:13
wolterhm.. i could even help translate that book to spanish09:20
wolterthat'd give me karma too :)09:20
humphreybcyou could09:21
humphreybcstudent english yea09:21
humphreybc60mb i know09:21
humphreybc357 pages09:21
humphreybcit's a paid-for manual written about Ubuntu 8.0409:21
humphreybcwe can't copy it, it would be illegal09:21
humphreybcand we don't want to either09:22
humphreybcokay wolter i'm going to have a read now09:41
woltercant wait for your feedback09:41
wolterI don't know if I'm making it too long or if its just nice09:41
humphreybcI'll add comments as I go in the tex file and then push it through for you09:42
wolternice :)09:44
humphreybci might assign myself as the editor for chapter 5 :)09:50
woltergood :)09:51
wolterI have written a testimonial for you .. hope it helps you get into the members board whenever you want to10:01
humphreybcawesome I just saw that, i'll read it in a sec - almost done adding comments to chapter 5 :)10:02
* humphreybc just pushed up a new revision with changes10:08
humphreybchave a look :)10:10
humphreybcnice testimonial wolter, much appreciated :)10:11
humphreybcif you ever go for membership then i'll gladly write you one and support you10:11
wolteryeah well, I would like one membership, but my efforts in the community are not even near to getting me a membership10:13
woltermaybe someday, I say10:13
wolterI have read logs of meetings.. those guys are cruel10:13
humphreybcthey can be yes10:15
humphreybcif you're nice to them then they're nice back10:15
humphreybcI got declined at my one last year, but they were very nice about it and offered to help me work on my stuff to get my membership sorted. popey was actually one of the guys on the council10:16
popeywe're not cruel10:18
popeysome people apply for membership without even reading the guidelines10:18
popeyeffectively wasting our time10:18
humphreybcoh yeah i know10:19
humphreybca lot of people have an ill-informed idea of what membership is and means10:19
humphreybcso apply without really any experience :S10:19
humphreybcI might apply around june or something10:19
popeyI've even had people message me asking what is the absolute minimum they need to do to get membership10:19
humphreybcdepends how this manual pans out10:19
popeybecause all they want is the @ubuntu.com email address10:20
popeywhich fails to see the whole point of membership10:20
humphreybcindeed. I read the article in this weeks' newsletter about membership which might clear some stuff up10:20
humphreybcwhen do you think i should be ready to apply popey?10:21
popeythats impossible to answer10:21
wolterhaha, the @ubuntu.com email address was one big reason why I wanted the membership10:22
humphreybcimpossible? so it's actually harder than time travel?10:22
wolterand because it is not what it is all about is basically why I have not wasted your time ;)10:22
humphreybcwolter: nice10:22
popeythe whole point of membership is to reward significant and sustained contribution to the project10:22
wolterhumphreybc, I would read the log of the meeting when they rejected you10:22
popeyit's not a badge10:22
wolterand actually try to think how would they act now with all your work10:23
popeyso the goal should be to contribute10:23
popeythe goal should not be membership10:23
wolterpopey, indeed10:23
humphreybcheh well that's what i'm doing, i just need to do more xD10:23
popeyi didnt apply until a couple of years after I started contributing10:23
wolterI can't lie saying I did not want an @ubuntu.com email address, which is my point haha10:23
humphreybcwolter: what do you think of the feedback?10:24
humphreybc(just getting on topic again)10:24
wolterhumphreybc, I agree with 95% of it10:25
wolterI will start working on the implementation tomorrow10:25
wolterhumphreybc, I disagree in that we should not show terminals until the second part of the manual10:26
wolterI think we should provide a slight description on how to do certain things10:26
wolterand then link to chap8, in case the reader does not understand10:26
wolterbut of course, the manual is yours and I will honor your desicion10:26
wolterI mean, its ours, but I still do10:27
wolterHm so, I will go to sleep now10:27
wolterIt is very late. Perhaps the day I have stayed up the longest time. Its 4:30 AM here and I am starting to feel like a miscarriaged person10:28
wolterSo, good-bye. Sorry for my ranting and, if you have anything to say, make good use of the memoserv10:28
wolteryou know.. /msg memoserv help10:28
wolterbye all.10:28
humphreybcso brishu, who are you?10:32
humphreybcdutchie, ping10:35
* humphreybc can't believe that the software center idea was started over 4 years ago!10:41
humphreybcdutchie: ping11:10
humphreybcright i'm off to bed now fellas11:26
pererik8799 unread messages.. guys??15:26
pererik87Chapter 5 -> "Synaptic Package Manager" This is removed from lucid.16:08
manualbotHere I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.16:09
iantopererik87:  What's the problem?17:58
humphreybcHi all18:54
humphreybccheck out the main forums page18:54
aeonspire nice :)18:57
popeyI am concerned about the amount of focus and drive you're putting on getting the manual on the cd18:57
humphreybchow so18:58
popeyconsidering no other application or data gets _considered_ for inclusion on the cd until it at least _exists_!18:58
popeyfact is right now the manual doesn't exist (in terms of completeness)18:58
popeyIt also puts pressure on the ubuntu project18:58
popeybecause you're going round asking people a question to which the answer will almost certainly be "yes"18:59
humphreybcwhat do you mean?18:59
popeywell, what I'm saying is get it written first and foremost18:59
popeythen packaged18:59
popeythen request inclusion on the cd18:59
humphreybcRight but by then it will be too late for Lucid19:00
popeyor rather, inclusion into the "main" section of the repo19:00
humphreybcSure I understand what you mean, that would be fine if the project was started maybe 6 months ago19:00
popeybut the problem with the way you're doing it now (and this is my opinion) is that you are putting pressure on the project19:00
aeonspirebut thats not necessarily a bad thing19:01
popeyby going round getting people to "me too" a bug , and +1 a forum post19:01
popeyit is if the manual doesnt get finished in time19:01
humphreybchow so? I would think that I'm putting pressure on our project, more than Ubuntu itself.19:01
humphreybcAnd the manual will be finished in time, I can guarantee it.19:01
popeyyou cant19:01
humphreybcI know that's a bold thing to say19:01
popeyyou absolutely cant19:01
popeywhat if you're hit by a bus tomorrow?19:01
humphreybcHave you been following the branch?19:02
popeyits not about that19:02
popeyenthusiasm counts for a lot!19:02
popeyas does the amount of work you've done19:02
popeybut just hear me out a moment19:02
humphreybcWell I'd like to think i'm safer than that, and besides, we've got people who could quite easily take over from where I left off if something did go wrong.19:02
humphreybcSure i'll listen19:02
popeylets suppose you don't get one of the steps complete, whether that is completing the manual itself (which may happen), packaging it, or more importantly getting it into main.19:03
popeyif you get it into main then someone needs to be responsible for its maintenance19:03
popeyand _then_ and only then, there's the option of getting it on the CD19:03
humphreybcright - it's a long shot, I know19:03
popeysure, and I'm not saying it wont happen19:04
popeymy concern is the amount of focus on getting it on the cd puts pressure on ubuntu because...19:04
popeyeven _if_ you did all those things, what if the project said "no"19:04
popeyfor whatever reason19:04
popeythe project would look like prize assholes because you've rounded up a posse of people who say it should be on the cd19:04
popeyand thats not the way ubuntu works19:04
popeywe dont vote for what goes on the cd19:04
humphreybcI realize that. Being on the CD isn't the be all and end all of our project19:05
popeybut it's the 2nd question on your forum post19:05
humphreybcIt's an ultimate goal, you have to reach for the stars to get to the moon.19:05
popey_before_ anything about content!19:05
popeysurely content comes first, then distribution19:05
humphreybcThe questions aren't in any particular order19:06
popeyit doesnt work like that :)19:06
popeyi can see a lot of value in the work you're doing19:08
popeyand personally I think having a manual on the cd would be a great idea19:08
popeybut it needs to exist first :)19:08
humphreybcWell, what I can say is that I get things done - it's what I do. Unfortunately as projects like Ubuntu get larger and larger and are driven by companies such as Canonical, a fair amount of bureaucracy and stuffing around gets introduced that leads to delays for the end user. A lot can be achieved in four months with the right attitude and support, we've got both of those. Unfortunately Ubuntu has got into this rhythm of projec19:08
humphreybcSure if I could rewind 6 months then I would have made sure the project was finished before asking to include on a CD, but, as I say above, I need to start raising awareness early on (even when the project is in its early stages) to start some of this decision making in motion. :)19:09
popeyi think you're okay for awareness19:09
popeyI'm also concerned that you're pissing off quite a few people who have been in the project for a while19:09
dutchieah, humphreybc, you pinged earlier19:09
popeyespecially the documentation team19:09
humphreybcThat's always bound to happen.19:09
popeyno it isnt19:10
popeythats why we have a code of conduct19:10
humphreybcThe docs team are looking at it the wrong way, they're seeing it as competition instead of collaboration.19:10
humphreybcdutchie: was just going to ask how your exam went, but i'll talk to you later :)19:10
popeythey were here first humphreybc19:10
popey_you_ are the one competing, and not collaborating19:10
humphreybcI'm getting to collaboration, it's on my list of things to do - believe me. We've just started collaborating with the Community Learning Project19:11
popeythe reason I mention it is because on the "justification" page you're quite rude about the official documentation19:11
popey"The Ubuntu Manual will have all the information in one place, instead of spread out all over the internet." - the ubuntu documentation _is_ in one place http://doc.ubuntu.com/19:11
popey"It will be easier to read, and will incorporate more screenshots and step by step tutorials." - implying the official documentation isnt easy to read, if thats so, collaborate and fix it!19:11
humphreybcBy in one place I mean in a single file. So maybe the justification wording needs some work.19:12
popey"It will be written in a consistent style, so it is easier to follow." - the documentation team _has_ a style guide,19:12
humphreybcYes, but just because something exists doesn't mean people will follow it.19:12
popey"And, as much as the Ubuntu Docs team try to keep everything up-to-date, often documentation remains unchanged from its original release. (In some cases, as old as 6.06) Our manual will be 100% current for every release." - there is no possible way you can guarantee that19:12
popeythe documentation team _do_ follow the style guide!19:12
humphreybcOkay, okay, well as much as I'm enjoying this debate I'm afraid i'm going to have to have a shower and get some breakfast before I head off to uni19:13
humphreybcBut I am keen to continue talking with you later19:13
humphreybcIt's good to get some more opinions from the community19:13
popeywould be good to listen and take on board those opinions rather than dismiss them :(19:14
humphreybcI'm not dismissing them, I am listening to what you're saying. I'll cut back on the requests for attention - the project has enough contributors now.19:14
humphreybcI am planning on working a lot more on content this week. Don't worry :)19:15
humphreybcAnd on that note I'll be off! I've got a full day of uni so I won't be back for another 8 hours or so, popey, I suppose you'll be sleeping or something around then.19:16
dutchiepopey: personally, I think there is a niche for the ubuntu manual if we're careful to keep a bird's eye view of things19:16
humphreybcOkay, you can send me an email if you like,19:16
humphreybccheerio guys19:17
popeydutchie: please dont fall into the trap of not reading what i wrote19:17
popey"19:08:11 < popey> and personally I think having a manual on the cd would be a great idea"19:17
aeonspirei completely understand what you mean popey19:17
dutchiemust have missed that in my quick scan of proceedings19:17
aeonspireI think lucid is very very ambitious but I'd propose to aim for April and when it's not ready everyone hopefully can agree that it takes a little more time to make it perfect and nobody loses face19:18
popeyhe is incredibly enthusiastic and is working hard on the manual, and it's to be applauded19:18
aeonspirethe pressure can benefit the project19:18
popeythe rudeness can only hurt it19:19
popeyhe's likely to piss the doc team off (more than he has already) with those wiki pages, and then to pronounce that it will be updated for every release... who is responsible for documentation..19:19
popeythe doc team19:19
popeyif he decides to get married, travel for a year, or drops dead then there is a legacy left for someone to pick up19:20
dutchieyeah, I'm aware that the folks in the doc team aren't best pleased with what's going on here19:20
popeywhich I am sure could happen, but making bold guarantees is not the way to do it19:20
aeonspireI think it will not be ready for Lucid19:22
dutchieI think it'll be close19:23
aeonspirehopefully yes19:23
popeyyeah, it would be great to have a finished manual, especially on the cd19:24
aeonspirewhat he says about the doc as it is right now is often quite true19:27
aeonspirebut maybe he needs to be more diplomatic :)19:27
aeonspirea manual that's included has to be for the absolute newcomers19:29
aeonspireadvanced users probably know where to find the existing doc and how to use it19:29
humphreybcactually, scratch that I've changed my mind. I'm not too fussed about spending my morning in a 3 hour economics lecture, I might just read over the notes later on!19:32
humphreybcso, popey, what is your suggestion?19:33
popeytone down the justifications page for a start19:44
popeyit really dismisses the hard work the doc team do19:45
humphreybcRighto i'll do that right now19:45
popeythanks, its much appreciated19:45
humphreybcno worries19:46
humphreybcI don't want to alienate the commnunity19:46
popeyI'm impressed you guys switched to latex :)19:46
aeonspireThe Community Docs are excellent, but 'unfortunately' are not structured 'for complete beginners' and do not 'necessarily' follow one 'guideline'.19:46
aeonspirehow about something like that?19:47
humphreybcsounds good to me aeonspire19:47
* popey trots off to make fish pie19:47
dutchieon less controversial matters, I think we need a way to compress the list of contributors down19:48
dutchielike columns19:48
humphreybcThe credits?19:48
humphreybcYes you're right. Bullet points won't work either.19:48
humphreybcThat's just a temporary thing19:49
aeonspiremaybe emphasize that the docs are targeted at users with at least a little experience and that they are good like this for them19:50
aeonspirethat there isn't really a competition here19:50
humphreybcSure. That's the truth, we're not trying to emulate the docs - we can't go into as much detail.19:50
vishaeonspire: mentioning "competition" isnt really necessary... it trys to put more stuff in for the imagination :)19:51
aeonspireof course you don't have to say it like that :D19:51
dutchiedoes it actually *mention* the docs at all at the moment?19:52
aeonspirethe manual, as far as i understood, is meant to be a little like the quick start guide you get with a new product19:52
* dutchie greps19:52
dutchieaeonspire: yeah, that's how I see it19:52
aeonspireand that's just something that isn't there yet19:53
dutchie"grep -ri 'help\.ubuntu\.com' ." says no :(19:53
vishIMO , justification page can be more about what the manual wants to be and less of what the docs isnt19:53
humphreybcokay, i'm working on it :)19:53
humphreybc(open to suggestions please)19:53
aeonspirebut it should state at least a little how it is different from those19:53
aeonspirewithout judging them. i know you didn't want to do that but you could read it like that if you want to19:54
* dutchie adds a little "What this manual isn't" section to the prologue19:54
humphreybcdutchie: heh19:54
humphreybcThe reason I was a wee bit.... rude.. about other projects was because of the response I initially got from the docs team19:55
humphreybcThey basically said "this is a waste of time, why bother? It's been tried before and failed, so it will never work."19:55
aeonspireso it will prove them wrong :) but you basically can do it without them but not against them i think19:57
humphreybchow's this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual19:58
humphreybcoh yeah we sort of need someone for this blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/feedbackuf19:59
humphreybcEspecially now that thread is featured on the UF home page19:59
humphreybcI would love to do it myself but I'm just too busy19:59
dutchieright, one "What this manual isn't" section written and pushed20:00
dutchietime for some food20:00
humphreybcfood - that seems like a good idea20:00
pererik87ianto: no problems...20:11
iantopererik87:  Good to hear :)20:13
wolterHi humphreybc are you here right now?20:25
humphreybcwolter: sure am buddy, what's up?20:26
wolterI disagree on the way you ordered the subtopics of chapter 520:26
wolterI think some things need to be introduced before others20:26
wolterwell, not really.. hm20:26
wolterI think i can work it out.. ill complain later if necessary :)20:27
humphreybcI didn't re order much did I?20:27
humphreybcor do you mean the ToC overhaul a few days ago?20:27
wolterno no.. is that you put software center like all the way up20:29
wolterwell, after software management20:29
wolterbut its fine really20:29
wolterbecause most of the people will only read that part, according to the forum feedback20:30
humphreybcyea.. well they'll want to know about software center before anything else20:35
humphreybcit should come after a brief introduction to how software works20:35
humphreybcbut that's in the prologue for now20:35
humphreybcI'm thinking it could be moved to Chapter 5. But really, software management is one of the biggest differences between Windows/Mac and Ubuntu.20:35
humphreybcthat's why I stuck it in the prologue20:35
wolteroh yes20:37
woltermhm.. and a big reason why many people get scared off20:37
wolterbut what i focused on doing was writing how ubuntu's software management was better20:37
humphreybcso we need to make it clear it's simpler than windows..20:37
wolterthan that of windows or mac20:37
humphreybcyeah i know, what you've written is good20:37
humphreybcyou've got the basics done great - you just need to polish your phrasing and word choice etc20:38
wolterhumphreybc, what latex editor do you use?20:38
humphreybcI just use gedit20:39
wolterI know an editor that renders your latex code as you type, in case you want it20:39
wolterat least for me, its easier to concentrate when I don't see all those \textsymbols{going on} all around20:39
aeonspiregedit rocks :)20:39
wolterlike in an hour20:41
humphreybcwhat's the one that renders latex as you write?20:42
dutchielyx maybe20:43
dutchiebut that's not quite latex20:44
* humphreybc is getting some breakfast20:44
* humphreybc is putting two new title page proposals from David Nel on the wiki20:58
* dutchie renames all the files and folders 22:11
* dutchie dislikes bzr22:35
* dutchie wants git :(22:35
humphreybcwhat's wrong with bzr22:37
dutchieI don't like it22:37
dutchieI just renamed all of the stuff with mv, then tried to tell bzr about it, and it broke22:37
dutchieso now I'm having to do it all again with bzr mv instead22:38
humphreybcperhaps you could just use bzr add?22:39
dutchieI'm trying to preserve metadata and thigns22:39
humphreybcoh ok22:40
functionofxyHello. I'm a new editor in the project.23:22
functionofxyI want to be sure that I'm following etiquette--if I see a typo in a chapter that's not mine, can I correct and commit?23:23

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