[00:01] <humphreybc> yeah we probably could
[00:10] <humphreybc> have you all gone here and marked the bug as affecting you?
[00:10] <humphreybc> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/example-content/+bug/505873
[00:10] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 505873 in example-content "Ubuntu Manual for example content in Lucid" [Wishlist,New]
[00:43] <wolter> humphreybc, wouldn't you prefer the manual to be in the desktop?
[00:47] <humphreybc> i would
[00:47] <humphreybc> this is just the first step
[00:48] <humphreybc> if we get it as example content then it will be easy to ask them to add a link on the desktop
[00:48] <wolter> ok
[00:49] <wolter> yeah I thought that was your intention :) just making sure
[00:49] <humphreybc> i also want a big fat link here: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download
[00:50] <humphreybc> right beside the big green "download ubuntu" button I want another button that says "download the official manual"
[00:54] <wolter> That'd be so nice
[00:54] <wolter> humphreybc, I have a couple of questions
[00:55] <wolter> #1 requires you to read a piece of my chapter blueprint
[00:55] <wolter> 1. Do I need to meticulously describe how to get the basic operations done in applications such as Software Sources, Ubuntu Software Center and Synaptic Package Manager, or rather just explain the purpose of each?
[00:57] <wolter> the other one i don't remember
[00:57] <wolter> but I would like to suggest a section in the advanced part of the manual to explain how to build packages
[00:57] <wolter> and how simple it can be
[01:07] <humphreybc> wolter: um software center is pretty easy, you could probably just say something like "search for the application you require or find it under the categories and then click install to let Ubuntu do the rest" - I think they're working on the software center in Lucid to make it even easier
[01:08] <humphreybc> Software Sources and Synaptic you will have to go into a bit more detail
[01:08] <humphreybc> but not a lot of detail
[01:08] <humphreybc> and as for building packages, that's too advanced even for the advanced section I'm afraid
[01:08] <wolter> oh ok
[01:09] <humphreybc> yeah sorry
[01:15] <humphreybc> how big do we think the PDF will be?
[01:15] <wolter> well, i think about 40 pages?
[01:15] <wolter> don't you think?
[01:15] <wolter> the last time i built the manual it was 21 pages long, but not at all finished as we all know
[01:16] <humphreybc> no i mean size
[01:16] <humphreybc> it's about 150kb at the moment
[01:16] <humphreybc> but with images
[01:16] <humphreybc> and another 20 pages or so
[01:16] <humphreybc> it'll be what, 2mb?
[01:18]  * humphreybc is talking to Jorge Castro who packages the example content for the releases
[01:20]  * humphreybc he says we need to squeeze every kilobyte out of it 
[01:21]  * humphreybc "me:  And you personally, think it's a good project?"
[01:22]  * humphreybc "Jorge:  yeah of course!we definately need it!"
[01:25]  * humphreybc has registered a new blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/optimization
[01:37] <wolter> nice work humphreybc :)
[01:39] <humphreybc> we're on our way!
[01:46] <wolter> i will send an article that may seem interesting to all the manual writers to the mailing lists
[01:48] <humphreybc> ok
[01:52] <wolter> humphreybc, do you think I should write always with a semi-paranoic point of view?
[01:52] <humphreybc> what do you mean?
[01:52] <wolter> like, in deb packages i should warn people to not install every deb package they see
[01:52] <wolter> because anybody could make one
[01:52] <wolter> right?
[01:53] <humphreybc> yeah that would be a good idea
[02:06] <humphreybc> nice link
[02:22] <wolter> thanks
[02:24] <humphreybc> i wonder if we should do some research
[02:26] <humphreybc> i might start a thread on UF with 5 questions
[02:26] <humphreybc> for content
[02:27] <humphreybc> something like "If you could definitely have one topic in the manual, what would it be?" and "Would you prefer lots of screenshots to show you how to do things, or would you prefer step by step guides?" etc
[02:27] <humphreybc> but i'd need help from the team to formulate five good useful questions
[02:28] <humphreybc> and of course we will have to aim it at Ubuntu newcomers - so we'll have something like "Remember to back when you first started using Ubuntu, and answer these questions as if you were that person back then:" or something
[02:28] <humphreybc> as well as putting it in the absolute beginners forum
[02:28] <humphreybc> so, guys, ideas for questions please
[02:30] <humphreybc> what do we NEED to know?
[02:31] <humphreybc> perhaps we could give them the list of default apps and ask them to put them in order of which should be highest priority/include the most detail
[02:31] <wolter> ok, I think we should open a page for this in the wiki
[02:31] <wolter> will you do it?
[02:31] <wolter> There we can draft questions
[02:31] <humphreybc> okay cool
[02:31] <humphreybc> i'll start a new apge
[02:32] <humphreybc> hold up one sec
[02:32] <wolter> and separate from that, anybody can either roam the #ubuntu channel for frequent questions, the forums, or even make threads like the one you suggested
[02:32] <wolter> good
[02:35] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/survey
[02:35] <humphreybc> tell me your ideas in here and i'll add them to the wiki (so we don't have two people editing the same page)
[02:38] <humphreybc> refresh the page, i've just added some questions
[02:38] <wolter> ok
[02:38] <humphreybc> oops screwed up the headers, refresh again now
[02:39] <wolter> well, I have heard of tons of people having problems with their ATI video cards and with pulseaudio
[02:39] <wolter> so we could have a section for hardware problems
[02:39] <humphreybc> i was sort of meaning for this questionnaire to just be a general thing
[02:39] <humphreybc> with only a few questions
[02:39] <wolter> oh sorry
[02:39] <wolter> yes
[02:39] <humphreybc> you know, like it covers the whole concept of the manual
[02:39] <wolter> hm.. so, these questions will be part of some poll to get feedback from the community?
[02:39] <humphreybc> okay well let's start with what we need to know
[02:40] <humphreybc> wolter, yeah kind of
[02:40] <humphreybc> it's also a bit of a promo for the manual, and to get some more feedback from the community
[02:40] <humphreybc> what do we need to know from users that we don't know already?
[02:40] <humphreybc> we need to know how highly they value say, getting online, compared to learning about Ubuntu One?
[02:40] <wolter> Well, what i just said may be a topic in the manual
[02:41] <wolter> like a hardware support
[02:41] <wolter> section
[02:41] <wolter> and well, the stuff about pulseaudio could be covered in the troubleshooting section
[02:42] <humphreybc>  that's chapter 4
[02:42] <wolter> in fact (sorry for taking the topic temporarily elsewhere) i think we should have also a troubleshooting wiki page where we all suggest troubles to shoot described in the final troubleshooting chapter of the manual
[02:43] <wolter> because it wouldn't be intelligent to have problem-solving spread all around the manual
[02:43] <wolter> instead we should have like, "if you have problems with this and that, look for a solution in chapter 8: troubleshooting. Anyway, lets get back to your topci
[02:43] <wolter> let me think of other questions
[02:43] <wolter> about how many questions would you like to have?
[02:45] <humphreybc> yeah i'll create a troubleshooting page soon
[02:46] <humphreybc> well 5 - 8 questions
[02:46] <humphreybc> refresh the page
[02:46] <humphreybc> tell me what you think
[02:47] <wolter> I think the questions you have there are very useful
[02:47] <humphreybc> cool
[02:47] <humphreybc> can you think of anything else?
[02:47] <wolter> hm, but I would include, in the first question, that the topic has to be ubuntu specific
[02:47] <wolter> for example, to avoid stuff like "a how-to-use-audacity tutorial"
[02:47] <humphreybc> okay
[02:47] <wolter> because there are people in the forums that don't know where they are standing
[02:48] <wolter> let me think of a question myself
[02:48] <wolter> What do you dislike about ubuntu/
[02:48] <wolter> ?
[02:48] <wolter> maybe?
[02:49] <wolter> Or, if you were to stop using ubuntu,  why would it be
[02:49] <wolter> ?
[02:50] <wolter> (also, how about a section in the wiki where we the team suggest potential content?)
[02:51] <humphreybc> I don't think that question is specific to us
[02:51] <humphreybc> it's more a general Ubuntu thing, rather than something to do with the manual
[02:51] <humphreybc> or
[02:51] <humphreybc> I suppose if we ask that
[02:52] <humphreybc> and get an overwhelming response like "lack of hardware documentation" then we know we need to make chapter 4 awesome
[02:52] <humphreybc> is that what you mean?
[02:57] <humphreybc> refresh the page again, added another couple of questions. I think that's almost all we need, really. Unless you can think of some more, I might go ahead and create the UF thread.
[03:10] <humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8650191
[03:11] <humphreybc> now we wait ....
[03:43] <humphreybc> look how many people we have actively working on the project: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+topcontributors
[04:05] <wolter> yes humphreybc that is what i meant :)
[04:05] <wolter> we could get some important info
[04:05] <wolter> such as, "ubuntu doesn't have an application for ______"
[04:06] <wolter> so if there actually is one, but it is buried deep, we can point that out
[04:06] <wolter> that is, if it is general purpose
[04:06] <wolter> humphreybc, sorry for my unanounced afk-ness
[04:06] <wolter> I had a break from writing chap 5
[04:06] <wolter> but i am now more oriented than i ever was
[04:07] <humphreybc> no probs
[04:07] <wolter> I will push something later, like in a couple of hourse or more
[04:07] <wolter> lol, I wish I saw myself on that list
[04:08] <wolter> All i need to do is push my changes to get karma?
[04:08] <humphreybc> yeah you get branch stuff
[04:13] <wolter> humphreybc, its getting damn good feedback the thread
[04:13] <wolter> nice work
[04:13] <wolter> I am working on 1) of post #5 :)
[04:15] <wolter> i'm going afk right now, see you in an hour or such
[04:15] <humphreybc> yeah but wolter an admin moved our thread to the community cafe
[04:15] <humphreybc> I've emailed the forum council to find out why
[05:15] <wolter> hmm.. how about that.. the ubuntu pocket guide uses the corner strip to declare the version of ubuntu it is for
[05:18] <wolter> humphreybc, have you thought about contacting the ubuntu pocket guide author?
[05:34] <wolter> Oh hi brishu, I read your post in the forums
[05:35] <wolter> Did you find out about the manual this way
[05:35] <wolter> o angelus sorry
[05:35] <angelus> wolter, yup ...
[05:35] <wolter> Good
[05:35] <wolter> are you going to help out?
[05:35] <angelus> i hope so ...
[05:36] <angelus> im looking at it and seeing if there is anything i can tackle ..
[05:36] <wolter> angelus, i am working in a big chapter.. chapter 5
[05:36] <wolter> you know where to find the table of contents?
[05:37] <angelus> gimme a second to get there
[05:38] <angelus> i'm at the chapter 5 page right now ... you are doing software packaging in Ubuntu am i correct ?
[05:38] <wolter> yes
[05:39] <wolter> a lot of people have suggested us to go big on that section
[05:39] <wolter> and the good thing is, its something really easy
[05:40] <angelus> yup i would say so ... especially since you can do thhe software management center ...
[05:41] <angelus> err ... ignore that
[05:42] <angelus> i meant ... i can help out with the Software Center ... as well as little bit on How to add repositories the GUI way on to the software sources .. ,
[05:43] <angelus> id say go the vi /etc/apt/sources.list ... but i think there was an agreement to not get into too much of the terminal/CLI stuff till later in the book am i correct ??
[05:53] <wolter> yes well
[05:53] <wolter> I am writing for both methods sometimes
[05:53] <wolter> but without getting into detail
[05:54] <wolter> however, if the team wants me to wipe those parts off I will
[05:54]  * humphreybc is talking to the Ubuntu Community Learning Project on how we can get their support for the manual
[05:56] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
[05:59] <wolter> oh nice
[06:01]  * humphreybc the Learning project is officially backed by Canonical
[06:04] <wolter> hmm.. why can I not use uline?
[06:05] <humphreybc> what's uline?
[06:06] <wolter> underline, according to the wikibook
[06:06] <humphreybc> hmm
[06:06] <wolter> I may have to review the writing format guidelines
[06:06] <humphreybc> maybe it's deprecated
[06:06] <wolter> Is underline not used?
[06:06] <wolter> oh
[06:06] <humphreybc> i just use bold
[06:06] <wolter> I am using underline for addresses
[06:06] <humphreybc> where abouts/
[06:06] <wolter> like Applications > Administration > Software Sources
[06:06] <wolter> what should I use?
[06:06] <wolter> and for file addresses
[06:06] <wolter> as in /etc/apt/sources.list
[06:07] <humphreybc> not sure
[06:08] <brishu> wolter, i would italicize the addresses, or put them in a monospace
[06:08] <wolter> yeah, i will italize while I test
[06:08] <wolter> I think this things should be defined, if not already
[06:09] <humphreybc> they might be
[06:09] <humphreybc> talk to joe?
[06:10] <brishu> wolter, i have the Ubuntu Pocket Guide in front of me and they are italicizing the Menu Addresses(i.e. Applications->Games->Tertis)
[06:11] <brishu> and monospace w/ dotted underline for folder addresses (/home)
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson> i recommend doing <b>Parent</b> &rarr; <b>Child</b> &rarr; etc
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson> well, rather, the latex equivalent of these
[06:12] <IlyaHaykinson> also, since Software Sources already lets ppl edit the sources list, i don't think there's a strong need to tell ppl to edit a file manually...
[06:14] <brishu> IlyaHaykinson, but the easiest way to edit the sources normally is sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list, which we will need the terminal for ...
[06:16] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson, yeah, but I am just letting them know that software sources edits that file, in case they want to do anything with it... do you think I should not mention that?
[06:16] <brishu> id say a blurb on how to do it on the GUI, then a Link to the editing sources.list section(if we have one), for those interested
[06:17] <brishu> s/blurb/section
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson> hm, i wouldn't mention it. every tool in the GUI edits some file or another.
[06:17] <wolter> brishu, well, we are not basing our manual on the ubuntu pocket guide
[06:17] <brishu> sorry ...
[06:17] <wolter> haha, no problem
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson>  i would avoid discussing manual editing of things unless that's really the only way to do something
[06:17] <IlyaHaykinson> or unless it's vital for troubleshooting
[06:17] <wolter> I also think that whoever is making the style definitions should make a single \thing{} for command lines
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson> it's like a beginner's manual for Windows trying to direct people (even optionally) into the Registry
[06:19] <humphreybc> talk to jmburgess about style guide
[06:19] <wolter> ok
[06:20] <humphreybc> or dutchie
[06:20] <IlyaHaykinson> there should probably be two different code commands -- one for inline filenames etc, and one for actual snippets (i.e. standalone code sections or the like)
[06:20] <wolter> lol, the last times i have tried to install something through software center I have not been able to do it without the authetification thing bothering me
[06:23] <wolter> what latex editors do you use?
[06:24] <wolter> so IlyaHaykinson you would say to not touch the details much when writting the manual?
[06:26] <IlyaHaykinson> hm. my preference is for a medium level of detail -- not just tell people to use an application, but point them to a particular screen; explain the contents of the screen, but not go into telling people about every single button.
[06:27] <wolter> ok
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> basically, tell them how to do the most common things so that it's possible to follow along. and then hint or make a cursory mention of the other, slightly more advanced things.
[06:27] <wolter> and what latex editor do you use?
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> at least that's how i would approach it.
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> oh. i use emacs.
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> i guess i could as well use gedit here. i treat it as pure text, basically.
[07:17] <wolter> what can I do when there is a "text conflict" in a file?
[07:20] <wolter> nvm
[07:20] <wolter> bzr resolve FILE (for the record)
[07:53] <humphreybc> everyone check Planet Ubuntu in about 10 minutes
[07:54] <wolter> wow nice
[07:55] <humphreybc> I think you will be very pleased :)
[07:58] <wolter> is it in the fridge?
[07:58] <wolter> or some other blog?
[08:00] <wolter> I saw a bullet in the fridge in the Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter #175 that says Ubuntu Manual Project
[08:08] <humphreybc> http://planet.ubuntu.com/
[08:08] <humphreybc> scroll down a wee bit
[08:15] <brishu> the picture (is it the proposed-cover?) looks awesome. :)
[08:17] <humphreybc> yes it's a proposed cover
[08:17] <humphreybc> one of many proposed ones!
[08:19] <brishu> kool :) ...
[08:21] <humphreybc> add your feedback if you like
[08:22] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
[08:27] <wolter> humphreybc, nice!!
[08:27] <wolter> my lynx :)
[08:27] <humphreybc> indeed!
[08:29] <wolter> humphreybc, this feels so nice.. the project coming out so well
[08:31] <humphreybc> yep we're doing good
[08:32] <humphreybc> although I can't help but feel we're not getting the content done.... maybe it's just me because I haven't written in about a week
[08:32] <humphreybc> I hope it's not "all talk but no action" kind of thing
[08:55] <humphreybc> might pay to have a look at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training/PDFs
[08:57] <wolter> well, I have done a big portion on chap 5
[08:57] <wolter> its already on the branch
[08:57] <wolter> for good :)
[08:57] <wolter> this bzr tool is amazing
[09:05] <humphreybc> man wolter, nice work!
[09:06] <wolter> do you think so?
[09:06] <wolter> :)
[09:06] <humphreybc> yeah i will have a read soon!
[09:07] <humphreybc> do have a look at that link i posted up above
[09:08] <humphreybc> we can't copy it tho
[09:09] <wolter> oh haha, i thought you had read it and that was why you said "nice work!"
[09:09] <wolter> lol
[09:10] <wolter> should I get student?
[09:13] <wolter> wow that document is big
[09:20] <wolter> hm.. i could even help translate that book to spanish
[09:20] <wolter> that'd give me karma too :)
[09:21] <humphreybc> you could
[09:21] <humphreybc> student english yea
[09:21] <humphreybc> 60mb i know
[09:21] <humphreybc> 357 pages
[09:21] <humphreybc> it's a paid-for manual written about Ubuntu 8.04
[09:21] <humphreybc> we can't copy it, it would be illegal
[09:22] <humphreybc> and we don't want to either
[09:26] <wolter> yeah
[09:41] <humphreybc> okay wolter i'm going to have a read now
[09:41] <wolter> good
[09:41] <wolter> cant wait for your feedback
[09:41] <wolter> I don't know if I'm making it too long or if its just nice
[09:42] <humphreybc> I'll add comments as I go in the tex file and then push it through for you
[09:44] <wolter> nice :)
[09:50] <humphreybc> i might assign myself as the editor for chapter 5 :)
[09:51] <wolter> good :)
[10:01] <wolter> I have written a testimonial for you .. hope it helps you get into the members board whenever you want to
[10:02] <humphreybc> awesome I just saw that, i'll read it in a sec - almost done adding comments to chapter 5 :)
[10:08]  * humphreybc just pushed up a new revision with changes
[10:09] <wolter> good
[10:10] <humphreybc> have a look :)
[10:11] <humphreybc> nice testimonial wolter, much appreciated :)
[10:11] <humphreybc> if you ever go for membership then i'll gladly write you one and support you
[10:13] <wolter> yeah well, I would like one membership, but my efforts in the community are not even near to getting me a membership
[10:13] <wolter> maybe someday, I say
[10:13] <wolter> I have read logs of meetings.. those guys are cruel
[10:15] <humphreybc> they can be yes
[10:15] <humphreybc> although
[10:15] <humphreybc> if you're nice to them then they're nice back
[10:16] <humphreybc> I got declined at my one last year, but they were very nice about it and offered to help me work on my stuff to get my membership sorted. popey was actually one of the guys on the council
[10:18] <popey> hah
[10:18] <popey> we're not cruel
[10:18] <popey> some people apply for membership without even reading the guidelines
[10:18] <popey> effectively wasting our time
[10:19] <humphreybc> oh yeah i know
[10:19] <humphreybc> a lot of people have an ill-informed idea of what membership is and means
[10:19] <popey> indeed
[10:19] <humphreybc> so apply without really any experience :S
[10:19] <humphreybc> I might apply around june or something
[10:19] <popey> I've even had people message me asking what is the absolute minimum they need to do to get membership
[10:19] <humphreybc> depends how this manual pans out
[10:20] <popey> because all they want is the @ubuntu.com email address
[10:20] <popey> which fails to see the whole point of membership
[10:20] <humphreybc> indeed. I read the article in this weeks' newsletter about membership which might clear some stuff up
[10:21] <humphreybc> when do you think i should be ready to apply popey?
[10:21] <popey> thats impossible to answer
[10:21] <humphreybc> heh
[10:22] <wolter> haha, the @ubuntu.com email address was one big reason why I wanted the membership
[10:22] <humphreybc> impossible? so it's actually harder than time travel?
[10:22] <wolter> and because it is not what it is all about is basically why I have not wasted your time ;)
[10:22] <humphreybc> wolter: nice
[10:22] <popey> the whole point of membership is to reward significant and sustained contribution to the project
[10:22] <wolter> humphreybc, I would read the log of the meeting when they rejected you
[10:22] <popey> it's not a badge
[10:23] <wolter> and actually try to think how would they act now with all your work
[10:23] <popey> so the goal should be to contribute
[10:23] <popey> the goal should not be membership
[10:23] <wolter> popey, indeed
[10:23] <humphreybc> heh well that's what i'm doing, i just need to do more xD
[10:23] <popey> i didnt apply until a couple of years after I started contributing
[10:23] <wolter> I can't lie saying I did not want an @ubuntu.com email address, which is my point haha
[10:24] <humphreybc> wolter: what do you think of the feedback?
[10:24] <humphreybc> (just getting on topic again)
[10:25] <wolter> humphreybc, I agree with 95% of it
[10:25] <wolter> I will start working on the implementation tomorrow
[10:26] <wolter> humphreybc, I disagree in that we should not show terminals until the second part of the manual
[10:26] <wolter> I think we should provide a slight description on how to do certain things
[10:26] <wolter> and then link to chap8, in case the reader does not understand
[10:26] <wolter> but of course, the manual is yours and I will honor your desicion
[10:27] <wolter> decision*
[10:27] <wolter> I mean, its ours, but I still do
[10:27] <wolter> Hm so, I will go to sleep now
[10:28] <wolter> It is very late. Perhaps the day I have stayed up the longest time. Its 4:30 AM here and I am starting to feel like a miscarriaged person
[10:28] <wolter> So, good-bye. Sorry for my ranting and, if you have anything to say, make good use of the memoserv
[10:28] <wolter> you know.. /msg memoserv help
[10:28] <wolter> bye all.
[10:32] <humphreybc> so brishu, who are you?
[10:35] <humphreybc> dutchie, ping
[10:41]  * humphreybc can't believe that the software center idea was started over 4 years ago!
[10:41] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter?action=show&redirect=SoftwareStore
[11:10] <humphreybc> dutchie: ping
[11:26] <humphreybc> right i'm off to bed now fellas
[11:26] <humphreybc> night
[15:26] <pererik87> 99 unread messages.. guys??
[16:08] <pererik87> Chapter 5 -> "Synaptic Package Manager" This is removed from lucid.
[16:09] <pererik87> !ping
[16:09] <manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
[17:58] <ianto> pererik87:  What's the problem?
[18:54] <humphreybc> Hi all
[18:54] <humphreybc> check out the main forums page
[18:54] <humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/
[18:57] <aeonspire>  nice :)
[18:57] <popey> hmmm
[18:57] <popey> I am concerned about the amount of focus and drive you're putting on getting the manual on the cd
[18:58] <humphreybc> oh?
[18:58] <humphreybc> how so
[18:58] <popey> considering no other application or data gets _considered_ for inclusion on the cd until it at least _exists_!
[18:58] <popey> :)
[18:58] <popey> fact is right now the manual doesn't exist (in terms of completeness)
[18:58] <humphreybc> true
[18:58] <popey> It also puts pressure on the ubuntu project
[18:59] <popey> because you're going round asking people a question to which the answer will almost certainly be "yes"
[18:59] <humphreybc> what do you mean?
[18:59] <popey> well, what I'm saying is get it written first and foremost
[18:59] <popey> then packaged
[18:59] <popey> tested
[18:59] <popey> then request inclusion on the cd
[19:00] <humphreybc> Right but by then it will be too late for Lucid
[19:00] <popey> or rather, inclusion into the "main" section of the repo
[19:00] <humphreybc> Sure I understand what you mean, that would be fine if the project was started maybe 6 months ago
[19:00] <popey> but the problem with the way you're doing it now (and this is my opinion) is that you are putting pressure on the project
[19:01] <aeonspire> but thats not necessarily a bad thing
[19:01] <popey> by going round getting people to "me too" a bug , and +1 a forum post
[19:01] <popey> it is if the manual doesnt get finished in time
[19:01] <humphreybc> how so? I would think that I'm putting pressure on our project, more than Ubuntu itself.
[19:01] <humphreybc> And the manual will be finished in time, I can guarantee it.
[19:01] <popey> you cant
[19:01] <humphreybc> I know that's a bold thing to say
[19:01] <popey> you absolutely cant
[19:01] <popey> what if you're hit by a bus tomorrow?
[19:02] <humphreybc> Have you been following the branch?
[19:02] <popey> yes
[19:02] <popey> its not about that
[19:02] <popey> enthusiasm counts for a lot!
[19:02] <popey> as does the amount of work you've done
[19:02] <popey> but just hear me out a moment
[19:02] <humphreybc> Well I'd like to think i'm safer than that, and besides, we've got people who could quite easily take over from where I left off if something did go wrong.
[19:02] <humphreybc> Sure i'll listen
[19:02] <popey> ok
[19:03] <popey> lets suppose you don't get one of the steps complete, whether that is completing the manual itself (which may happen), packaging it, or more importantly getting it into main.
[19:03] <popey> if you get it into main then someone needs to be responsible for its maintenance
[19:03] <popey> and _then_ and only then, there's the option of getting it on the CD
[19:03] <humphreybc> right - it's a long shot, I know
[19:04] <popey> sure, and I'm not saying it wont happen
[19:04] <popey> my concern is the amount of focus on getting it on the cd puts pressure on ubuntu because...
[19:04] <popey> even _if_ you did all those things, what if the project said "no"
[19:04] <popey> for whatever reason
[19:04] <popey> the project would look like prize assholes because you've rounded up a posse of people who say it should be on the cd
[19:04] <popey> and thats not the way ubuntu works
[19:04] <popey> we dont vote for what goes on the cd
[19:05] <humphreybc> I realize that. Being on the CD isn't the be all and end all of our project
[19:05] <popey> exactly
[19:05] <popey> but it's the 2nd question on your forum post
[19:05] <humphreybc> It's an ultimate goal, you have to reach for the stars to get to the moon.
[19:05] <popey> _before_ anything about content!
[19:05] <popey> surely content comes first, then distribution
[19:06] <humphreybc> The questions aren't in any particular order
[19:06] <popey> it doesnt work like that :)
[19:08] <popey> i can see a lot of value in the work you're doing
[19:08] <popey> and personally I think having a manual on the cd would be a great idea
[19:08] <popey> but it needs to exist first :)
[19:08] <humphreybc> Well, what I can say is that I get things done - it's what I do. Unfortunately as projects like Ubuntu get larger and larger and are driven by companies such as Canonical, a fair amount of bureaucracy and stuffing around gets introduced that leads to delays for the end user. A lot can be achieved in four months with the right attitude and support, we've got both of those. Unfortunately Ubuntu has got into this rhythm of projec
[19:09] <humphreybc> Sure if I could rewind 6 months then I would have made sure the project was finished before asking to include on a CD, but, as I say above, I need to start raising awareness early on (even when the project is in its early stages) to start some of this decision making in motion. :)
[19:09] <popey> i think you're okay for awareness
[19:09] <popey> I'm also concerned that you're pissing off quite a few people who have been in the project for a while
[19:09] <dutchie> ah, humphreybc, you pinged earlier
[19:09] <popey> especially the documentation team
[19:09] <humphreybc> That's always bound to happen.
[19:10] <popey> no it isnt
[19:10] <popey> thats why we have a code of conduct
[19:10] <humphreybc> The docs team are looking at it the wrong way, they're seeing it as competition instead of collaboration.
[19:10] <humphreybc> dutchie: was just going to ask how your exam went, but i'll talk to you later :)
[19:10] <popey> they were here first humphreybc
[19:10] <popey> _you_ are the one competing, and not collaborating
[19:11] <humphreybc> I'm getting to collaboration, it's on my list of things to do - believe me. We've just started collaborating with the Community Learning Project
[19:11] <popey> the reason I mention it is because on the "justification" page you're quite rude about the official documentation
[19:11] <popey> "The Ubuntu Manual will have all the information in one place, instead of spread out all over the internet." - the ubuntu documentation _is_ in one place http://doc.ubuntu.com/
[19:11] <popey> "It will be easier to read, and will incorporate more screenshots and step by step tutorials." - implying the official documentation isnt easy to read, if thats so, collaborate and fix it!
[19:12] <humphreybc> By in one place I mean in a single file. So maybe the justification wording needs some work.
[19:12] <popey> "It will be written in a consistent style, so it is easier to follow." - the documentation team _has_ a style guide,
[19:12] <humphreybc> Yes, but just because something exists doesn't mean people will follow it.
[19:12] <popey> "And, as much as the Ubuntu Docs team try to keep everything up-to-date, often documentation remains unchanged from its original release. (In some cases, as old as 6.06) Our manual will be 100% current for every release." - there is no possible way you can guarantee that
[19:12] <popey> the documentation team _do_ follow the style guide!
[19:13] <humphreybc> Okay, okay, well as much as I'm enjoying this debate I'm afraid i'm going to have to have a shower and get some breakfast before I head off to uni
[19:13] <humphreybc> But I am keen to continue talking with you later
[19:13] <humphreybc> It's good to get some more opinions from the community
[19:14] <popey> would be good to listen and take on board those opinions rather than dismiss them :(
[19:14] <humphreybc> I'm not dismissing them, I am listening to what you're saying. I'll cut back on the requests for attention - the project has enough contributors now.
[19:15] <humphreybc> I am planning on working a lot more on content this week. Don't worry :)
[19:16] <popey> *sigh*
[19:16] <humphreybc> And on that note I'll be off! I've got a full day of uni so I won't be back for another 8 hours or so, popey, I suppose you'll be sleeping or something around then.
[19:16] <popey> yeah
[19:16] <dutchie> popey: personally, I think there is a niche for the ubuntu manual if we're careful to keep a bird's eye view of things
[19:16] <humphreybc> Okay, you can send me an email if you like,
[19:17] <humphreybc> cheerio guys
[19:17] <popey> dutchie: please dont fall into the trap of not reading what i wrote
[19:17] <popey> "19:08:11 < popey> and personally I think having a manual on the cd would be a great idea"
[19:17] <aeonspire> i completely understand what you mean popey
[19:17] <dutchie> must have missed that in my quick scan of proceedings
[19:17] <dutchie> apologies
[19:17] <popey> np
[19:18] <aeonspire> I think lucid is very very ambitious but I'd propose to aim for April and when it's not ready everyone hopefully can agree that it takes a little more time to make it perfect and nobody loses face
[19:18] <popey> he is incredibly enthusiastic and is working hard on the manual, and it's to be applauded
[19:18] <aeonspire> the pressure can benefit the project
[19:19] <popey> the rudeness can only hurt it
[19:19] <aeonspire> true
[19:19] <popey> he's likely to piss the doc team off (more than he has already) with those wiki pages, and then to pronounce that it will be updated for every release... who is responsible for documentation..
[19:19] <popey> the doc team
[19:20] <popey> if he decides to get married, travel for a year, or drops dead then there is a legacy left for someone to pick up
[19:20] <dutchie> yeah, I'm aware that the folks in the doc team aren't best pleased with what's going on here
[19:20] <popey> which I am sure could happen, but making bold guarantees is not the way to do it
[19:22] <aeonspire> I think it will not be ready for Lucid
[19:23] <dutchie> I think it'll be close
[19:23] <aeonspire> hopefully yes
[19:24] <popey> yeah, it would be great to have a finished manual, especially on the cd
[19:27] <aeonspire> what he says about the doc as it is right now is often quite true
[19:27] <aeonspire> but maybe he needs to be more diplomatic :)
[19:29] <aeonspire> a manual that's included has to be for the absolute newcomers
[19:29] <aeonspire> advanced users probably know where to find the existing doc and how to use it
[19:32] <humphreybc> actually, scratch that I've changed my mind. I'm not too fussed about spending my morning in a 3 hour economics lecture, I might just read over the notes later on!
[19:33] <humphreybc> so, popey, what is your suggestion?
[19:44] <popey> tone down the justifications page for a start
[19:45] <popey> it really dismisses the hard work the doc team do
[19:45] <humphreybc> Righto i'll do that right now
[19:45] <popey> thanks, its much appreciated
[19:46] <humphreybc> no worries
[19:46] <humphreybc> I don't want to alienate the commnunity
[19:46] <popey> I'm impressed you guys switched to latex :)
[19:46] <aeonspire> The Community Docs are excellent, but 'unfortunately' are not structured 'for complete beginners' and do not 'necessarily' follow one 'guideline'.
[19:47] <aeonspire> how about something like that?
[19:47] <humphreybc> sounds good to me aeonspire
[19:47]  * popey trots off to make fish pie
[19:48] <dutchie> on less controversial matters, I think we need a way to compress the list of contributors down
[19:48] <dutchie> like columns
[19:48] <humphreybc> The credits?
[19:48] <humphreybc> Yes you're right. Bullet points won't work either.
[19:49] <humphreybc> That's just a temporary thing
[19:50] <aeonspire> maybe emphasize that the docs are targeted at users with at least a little experience and that they are good like this for them
[19:50] <aeonspire> that there isn't really a competition here
[19:50] <humphreybc> Sure. That's the truth, we're not trying to emulate the docs - we can't go into as much detail.
[19:50] <aeonspire> exactly
[19:51] <vish> aeonspire: mentioning "competition" isnt really necessary... it trys to put more stuff in for the imagination :)
[19:51] <aeonspire> of course you don't have to say it like that :D
[19:52] <dutchie> does it actually *mention* the docs at all at the moment?
[19:52] <aeonspire> the manual, as far as i understood, is meant to be a little like the quick start guide you get with a new product
[19:52]  * dutchie greps
[19:52] <dutchie> aeonspire: yeah, that's how I see it
[19:53] <aeonspire> and that's just something that isn't there yet
[19:53] <dutchie> "grep -ri 'help\.ubuntu\.com' ." says no :(
[19:53] <vish> IMO , justification page can be more about what the manual wants to be and less of what the docs isnt
[19:53] <humphreybc> okay, i'm working on it :)
[19:53] <humphreybc> (open to suggestions please)
[19:53] <aeonspire> but it should state at least a little how it is different from those
[19:54] <aeonspire> without judging them. i know you didn't want to do that but you could read it like that if you want to
[19:54]  * dutchie adds a little "What this manual isn't" section to the prologue
[19:54] <humphreybc> dutchie: heh
[19:55] <humphreybc> The reason I was a wee bit.... rude.. about other projects was because of the response I initially got from the docs team
[19:55] <humphreybc> They basically said "this is a waste of time, why bother? It's been tried before and failed, so it will never work."
[19:57] <aeonspire> so it will prove them wrong :) but you basically can do it without them but not against them i think
[19:58] <humphreybc> how's this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
[19:59] <humphreybc> oh yeah we sort of need someone for this blueprint: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/feedbackuf
[19:59] <humphreybc> Especially now that thread is featured on the UF home page
[19:59] <humphreybc> I would love to do it myself but I'm just too busy
[20:00] <dutchie> right, one "What this manual isn't" section written and pushed
[20:00] <dutchie> time for some food
[20:00] <humphreybc> heh
[20:00] <humphreybc> food - that seems like a good idea
[20:11] <pererik87> ianto: no problems...
[20:13] <ianto> pererik87:  Good to hear :)
[20:13] <humphreybc> ?
[20:13] <pererik87> haha:P
[20:25] <wolter> Hi humphreybc are you here right now?
[20:26] <humphreybc> wolter: sure am buddy, what's up?
[20:26] <wolter> I disagree on the way you ordered the subtopics of chapter 5
[20:26] <wolter> I think some things need to be introduced before others
[20:26] <wolter> well, not really.. hm
[20:27] <wolter> I think i can work it out.. ill complain later if necessary :)
[20:27] <humphreybc> hmm?
[20:27] <humphreybc> I didn't re order much did I?
[20:27] <humphreybc> or do you mean the ToC overhaul a few days ago?
[20:29] <wolter> no
[20:29] <wolter> no no.. is that you put software center like all the way up
[20:29] <wolter> well, after software management
[20:29] <wolter> but its fine really
[20:30] <wolter> because most of the people will only read that part, according to the forum feedback
[20:35] <humphreybc> yea.. well they'll want to know about software center before anything else
[20:35] <humphreybc> actually
[20:35] <humphreybc> it should come after a brief introduction to how software works
[20:35] <humphreybc> but that's in the prologue for now
[20:35] <humphreybc> I'm thinking it could be moved to Chapter 5. But really, software management is one of the biggest differences between Windows/Mac and Ubuntu.
[20:35] <humphreybc> that's why I stuck it in the prologue
[20:37] <wolter> oh yes
[20:37] <wolter> mhm.. and a big reason why many people get scared off
[20:37] <humphreybc> true
[20:37] <wolter> but what i focused on doing was writing how ubuntu's software management was better
[20:37] <humphreybc> so we need to make it clear it's simpler than windows..
[20:37] <wolter> than that of windows or mac
[20:37] <humphreybc> yeah i know, what you've written is good
[20:38] <humphreybc> you've got the basics done great - you just need to polish your phrasing and word choice etc
[20:38] <wolter> yeah
[20:38] <wolter> humphreybc, what latex editor do you use?
[20:39] <humphreybc> I just use gedit
[20:39] <wolter> I know an editor that renders your latex code as you type, in case you want it
[20:39] <wolter> at least for me, its easier to concentrate when I don't see all those \textsymbols{going on} all around
[20:39] <aeonspire> gedit rocks :)
[20:40] <dutchie> coughvimcough
[20:40] <wolter> lol
[20:41] <wolter> brb
[20:41] <wolter> like in an hour
[20:42] <humphreybc> what's the one that renders latex as you write?
[20:43] <dutchie> lyx maybe
[20:44] <dutchie> but that's not quite latex
[20:44]  * humphreybc is getting some breakfast
[20:58]  * humphreybc is putting two new title page proposals from David Nel on the wiki
[22:11]  * dutchie renames all the files and folders 
[22:35]  * dutchie dislikes bzr
[22:35]  * dutchie wants git :(
[22:37] <humphreybc> hahahaha
[22:37] <humphreybc> what's wrong with bzr
[22:37] <dutchie> I don't like it
[22:37] <dutchie> I just renamed all of the stuff with mv, then tried to tell bzr about it, and it broke
[22:38] <dutchie> so now I'm having to do it all again with bzr mv instead
[22:39] <humphreybc> perhaps you could just use bzr add?
[22:39] <dutchie> I'm trying to preserve metadata and thigns
[22:40] <dutchie> things*
[22:40] <humphreybc> oh ok
[22:55] <dutchie> done
[23:22] <functionofxy> Hello. I'm a new editor in the project.
[23:23] <functionofxy> I want to be sure that I'm following etiquette--if I see a typo in a chapter that's not mine, can I correct and commit?