pleia2hi folks, just waiting on a few people to get this learning team meeting rolling02:02
cprofittsorry folks -- dirty diaper needed changing02:07
pleia2ok, let's get this started :)02:07
MootBotMeeting started at 20:07. The chair is pleia2.02:07
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]02:07
pleia2welcome everyone, who all is here for the ubuntu community learning project meeting?02:08
* cprofitt raises hand02:08
MootBotLINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda02:08
pleia2our agenda02:08
_marx_non member logging02:08
pleia2[TOPIC] Review of what we're currently working on02:09
MootBotNew Topic:  Review of what we're currently working on02:09
pleia2ok, I sent an email to the list a few days ago outlining some of where we are at02:09
pleia2[LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2010-January/000102.html02:09
MootBotLINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2010-January/000102.html02:09
pleia2cprofitt: go ahead02:10
cprofittYou had asked me about the course layout in terms of Moodle02:10
* pleia2 nods02:10
pleia2we'll review CourseLayout in a minute, I think it's the next agenda item02:11
cprofittI think the layout will need to be modified02:11
cprofittand I am working on that...02:11
cprofittwhich fits agenda item one02:11
cprofittI can go in to more detail next02:11
pleia2ok, cool02:11
pleia2so, any comments on our current projects? anyone want to jump in anywhere or let us know about stuff they're working on that the rest of us should know about?02:11
doctormoI'm working on a video that shows people how to get involved from a fresh ubuntu install up to having the branch checked out.02:11
doctormoshould include text instructions too02:12
* pleia2 nods02:12
cprofittI am working on the layout for Moodle, the Ubuntu Educators site -- which I hope to use to draw some educators to our project - and a Moodle course on Installation02:12
duanedesigni added what will hopefully be a lot more Launchpad related courses to my wiki for peer review.02:13
pleia2duanedesign: link?02:13
cprofittI also made an account for duanedesign so he could transcribe his course to Moodle and offered to assist him02:14
duanedesigni need to update what i have done to reflect the guidlines at /Learning/CourseLayout02:14
pleia2sound like we're making good progress on several fronts then02:14
pleia2[TOPIC] Review Course Layout02:15
MootBotNew Topic:  Review Course Layout02:15
pleia2[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout02:15
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout02:15
pleia2ok, just to quickly explain this02:15
pleia2doctormo has been hosting Ubuntu classes in the MA LoCo for quite some time, this is the course structure he found to be best for that, and wrote his courses following this layout02:16
pleia2so the focus certainly is real life classroom teaching02:16
pleia2and can also be applied to IRC-based teaching02:16
doctormoHopefully as a stage 2, we can figure out how to use what we know to make student driven online courses...02:17
pleia2this might not be the same for moodle, so you have the floor, cprofitt :)02:20
duanedesignpleia2: http://okiebuntu.homelinux.com/okwiki02:20
pleia2duanedesign: thanks02:20
cprofittI am not sure how much people are familiar with 'course styles'02:20
cprofittfor in-person events it would be sychronous...02:20
cprofitton-line courses can be sychronous02:20
cprofittor asychronous (meaning there is not a 'teacher' present or a 'live' class02:20
cprofittfor the on-line synchronous courses -- IRC would be used even with Moodle courses02:20
cprofittthis model will work...02:20
cprofittfor Asychronous courses - instructor led or self-study02:20
cprofittthe demonstration will take a different form02:20
cprofittso that is all that has to be altered02:20
pleia2cprofitt: yeah, that's what I figured02:20
cprofittdoctormo: I have already done that for the Professional Learning Board02:20
cprofittso it is fairly easy...02:20
cprofittbut it will be best... as most creating courses for us will likely lack experience in asychronous course design, to give some solid examples02:20
* pleia2 nods02:20
cprofittmy own process took several review sessions with the educational professional that was my mentor at The Professional Learning Board02:20
cprofittI still would like to get a curriculum expert for K-12 or College to assist us if possible02:20
pleia2that would be nice02:21
cprofittas I do not feel I have enough experience02:21
cprofittone other component that we may want to consider02:21
cprofittfor all course styles is pre-assessment02:21
cprofittwhich would be a quiz about the course material taken prior to the course02:22
cprofittthis would assist people who may or may not know the material...02:22
pleia2ah, interesting02:22
cprofittand assist instructors in knowing what the 'strong' or 'weak' areas are for each student or the group as a whole02:22
cprofittit allows us to 'tailor' the course to better fit the student02:23
doctormoVery interesting02:23
Vantraxvery good idea02:23
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cprofittIts fairly common in education... so I take no credit for the idea...02:23
cprofittI am merely a parrot in this case02:23
pleia2well it certainly helps to have someone on the team who has expertise in this02:24
doctormocprofitt: Don't be so humble, we're all meme vectors in our own way.02:24
cprofitt... osmosis expertise.02:24
cprofittI just listen to teachers...02:24
Vantraxyeah, i was just thinking I was doing that in the training course I was running last week02:24
pleia2so, regarding the course layout, the verdict is that it will need to be altered for asyncronous moodle courses02:25
_marx_cprofitt: how transportable would this moodle be?02:25
cprofitt_marx_: Moodle is very transportable...02:26
cprofittif you are going to use it on another Moodle installation02:26
cprofittor export it02:26
_marx_so I could take it to my local library on *my server and run it?02:26
cprofittif you installed Moodle yes02:27
cprofittthe only possible gotcha is if we added a module...02:27
pleia2ok, I want to stay focused here02:27
cprofittthen the target Moodle server would need the module installed as well02:27
_marx_good, thx02:27
pleia2we can follow up after the meeting with moodle technical questions :)02:27
Vantraxmodules we should probably avoid unless they are A) Common or B) Critical02:27
pleia2Vantrax: +102:28
* doctormo hugs pleia2, trying to keep things on topic02:28
dinda1what is the current topic?02:28
pleia2cprofitt: do you see any problems with the course layout as it is? will it be very hard to modify for moodle?02:28
pleia2dinda1: discussing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout02:28
cprofittpleia2: I do not -- but converting an actual course from A to B may reveal things I did not anticipate02:29
pleia2ok, great :)02:29
pleia2I know it will be imperfect, but I'm hoping most of the material will be ok02:29
pleia2I am going to postpone the next agenda item until the end of the meeting02:29
pleia2[TOPIC] GroundControl familiarity02:29
MootBotNew Topic:  GroundControl familiarity02:29
pleia2doctormo: you're up02:30
doctormoAs I said before I'll be doing a video and some text on ground control... a project that enables our contributors to get involved without ever touching a command line.02:30
pleia2cprofitt: feel free to just speak up, this is a small meeting so we can keep it a bit informal :)02:30
pleia2doctormo: is there a project page?02:31
doctormoPart of this will include giving a hands on session with ubuntu learning members, so I know were all good on what it does and how it works.02:31
cprofittthat is what I was going to ask pleia202:31
pleia2[LINK] https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol02:31
MootBotLINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol02:31
* pleia2 thinks MootBot doesn't understand https02:31
cprofittso this project makes interacting with launchpad easier?02:32
pleia2doctormo: is this the child of the project you were working on at UDS?02:32
doctormocprofitt: You didn't see the demo at UDS so perhaps pleia2 can give a view on it.02:32
cprofittor we can talk off-line02:32
doctormopleia2: Yes, you saw the first half02:32
cprofittI was just looking for a quick summary, if possible, on how it fitst with UCLP02:32
* Vantrax agrees with cp on the summary02:33
doctormocprofitt: It configures bzr, launchpad and the two combined, it allows you to view projects from a button in nautilus and add them, and then add a branch from those folders.02:33
cprofittand how does that fit with UCLP?02:33
cprofittI think I see that... but want to make sure.02:34
doctormocprofitt: It allows users to get course material for editing, save the material, push it back up and get a merge request.02:34
cprofittdoes it have 'check-in' 'check-out' built in to it...02:35
cprofittforgive me for not knowing if that is a LP function or not02:35
doctormocprofitt: It's worded differently, It's "Get Code" (bzr branch) and "Save Code" (bzr commit) "Upload Code" (bzr push) and "Finished!" (merge request)02:36
doctormoYou only ever see one button at a time02:36
cprofittI got that bit on the first part doctormo but thanks for the clarification02:36
cprofittsounds like a solid project...02:37
doctormoIt should be useful outside of ULCP too02:37
cprofittit should certainly help users that are not familiar with console-foo02:37
pleia2yeah, a lot of people were excited about it at UDS02:37
pleia2this looks great doctormo, thanks for the intro :)02:37
pleia2shall we move on?02:37
pleia2[TOPIC] Plans for editing material02:38
MootBotNew Topic:  Plans for editing material02:38
pleia2ok doctormo, all yours again02:38
doctormoSo the second phaise two02:38
doctormoWe have our scripts which can create new classes, that can compile to html and pdf and do most of the heavy lifting.02:39
doctormoAll that's required of current editors is that they be able to open up a text file and edit it.02:39
* pleia2 nods02:40
doctormoBut I want to make it easier... since it requires contributors to understand that the file is split up into 5 parts02:40
doctormoand still requires cli use for making new classes02:40
doctormoSo this part will probably be a small quickly app which opens up and shows a list of sections and classes in a tree and then allows users to edit a class via gui.02:41
pleia2cprofitt: go ahead02:41
cprofittif there are changes to the way courses are 'created' will this program require changes or is it flexible?02:41
cprofittI am just concerned because we have yet to, at least to my knowledge, grant final approval on the course structure and methodology due to us not having transferred a course to Moodle02:42
cprofittand I also want to make sure it is flexible in the case of other changes...02:42
pleia2all of this is taking time, it's my hope that we'll have some courses finished in *some* format (even if it's odt) to transfer to moodle before doctormo is done with coding02:43
cprofittor in other words I hope to not have work lost... or creat a tool that may bind us to a particular structure02:43
doctormocprofitt: It would be flexible in terms of number of sections, with only the title being a fixed entry.02:43
pleia2and doctormo has several courses already completed, we could look into putting one of them into moodle now02:43
doctormopleia2: Yes this is certanly a phaise 2, I don't expect to hold people up with it.02:43
cprofittpleia2: we should... it would help us to A) learn the process and B) solidify the process02:44
pleia2sounds good :)02:44
doctormocprofitt: sounds like I should walk you through it, I've done that with pleia2 and nigel02:44
pleia2doctormo: this is great, thanks for putting so much work into making things easy for the contributor02:44
cprofittI could offer to assit doctormo convert the courses like with duanedesign02:44
cprofittdoctormo: that would help me understand it... but I trust you...02:45
cprofittI just want to make sure, for your point of view, that it is flexible02:45
doctormocprofitt: I sometimes go too far with flexability :-)02:45
doctormoSo I can confirm it'll be flexible enough for us to quickly add new sections as they become required.02:46
cprofittI don't think flexibilty can go too far...02:46
doctormocprofitt: Have you ever tried to hold water?02:46
pleia2well, when doctormo gets lost for 3 months doing customizations on flexibility we'll know that that point has been reached :)02:46
pleia2do we have anything else on this subject?02:47
cprofittnot I02:47
pleia2[TOPIC] Formalize tasklist to move forward02:47
MootBotNew Topic:  Formalize tasklist to move forward02:47
pleia2ok, some action items!02:47
doctormoHow does next monday evening sound for a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side?02:48
cprofittdoctormo: lets discuss after this topic02:48
pleia2cprofitt: want each of us pick one of doctormo's completed sysadmin courses and start putting it into moodle?02:49
doctormocprofitt: I mean to say, that this should be added to the task list.02:49
doctormopleia2: That actually sounds like an awesome idea02:49
pleia2I won't be around next monday, but I'm pretty familiar with the process and there are logs :)02:49
cprofittpleia2: that would be a good idea...02:49
pleia2[ACTION] cprofitt and pleia2 to each select one of doctormo's sysadmin courses and put into moodle02:50
MootBotACTION received:  cprofitt and pleia2 to each select one of doctormo's sysadmin courses and put into moodle02:50
cprofittI am booked next week on Thursday... and my wife talked to me about a date -- but I have forgotten which it is02:50
pleia2[ACTION] Schedule evening for cprofitt and doctormo to a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side02:51
MootBotACTION received:  Schedule evening for cprofitt and doctormo to a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side02:51
pleia2[ACTION] review duanedesign's launchpad courses02:51
MootBotACTION received:  review duanedesign's launchpad courses02:51
cprofittduanedesign: is also migrating one of those to Moodle02:52
cprofittand will work with me as he has questions02:52
pleia2[ACTION] duanedesign migrating a launchpad course to Moodle02:52
MootBotACTION received:  duanedesign migrating a launchpad course to Moodle02:52
pleia2anything else?02:53
cprofittNot that I have.02:53
pleia2cprofitt has ongoing moodle stuff, doctormo has ongoing dev work, so I won't bother with those02:53
cprofitthave any of you take a look at the Ubuntu educators Ning?02:53
pleia2yeah, but I don't understand ning :)02:53
MootBotLINK received:  http://ubuntuedu.ning.com/02:53
doctormoOh wait, now I remember, social site02:53
cprofittit is just a social site...02:54
cprofittI have advertised it on several of the educational sites I am a member on02:54
pleia2kind of like a forum?02:54
cprofittthink portal...02:54
* pleia2 nods02:54
cprofitta collection of parts02:54
doctormoWow that looks beautiful02:54
cprofittone of which is a forum02:54
cprofittI hope to use the site as a 'more familiar' site for teachers interested in or already using Ubuntu in the classroom02:55
pleia2ok, now I think I understand02:55
cprofittand those who support them02:55
doctormopleia2: you saw my ubuntu artists group on dA... it sort of like that but for educators.02:55
cprofittit ties in with our project, but also serves its own person02:56
cprofittonce we get the courses published -- Moodle or PDF then I want to link to them02:56
cprofittso the courses get used... and we get some feedback from Educators02:56
pleia2yeah, that's great02:56
cprofittI also, really hope, that some of these folks contribute02:56
cprofittbut we will see02:56
* pleia2 nods02:56
pleia2ok, let's wrap this up02:57
pleia2any parting thoughts?02:57
pleia2I want to say that this has been an awesome meeting, one of our best! we're making progress on a number of fronts, and it's exciting :) so thanks everyone02:57
* cprofitt shakes his head no02:57
cprofittYes, thanks everyone.02:58
cprofittfantastic work and good progress02:58
cprofittspecial thanks to Pleia who is doing an excellent job of pointing us all towards the goalline02:58
doctormoI think so!02:59
MootBotMeeting finished at 21:00.03:00
cprofittright on time :-)03:00
=== KatieKitty is now known as KatieOffline
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akgranerpleia2, I am working on the Leadership Series stuff this week once I get through with Chapter 3 do I just let you know?03:04
pleia2akgraner: that sounds good03:05
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cprofittnigel_nb: you need course creator rights?03:06
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* persia peers about10:01
* TheMuso is here.10:05
DrGSDrG is here10:06
persiaDrGS: Are you "DrG", or is that just a very similar nick?10:06
persiaAh :)10:06
persiaamachu seems away, but both our candidates are here.10:06
DrGSI am DrG the nick was not available10:06
freeflyi1gpersia: hi10:07
persialifeless: elky ?10:07
lifelessam here, a tad distracted by coughing10:08
* persia provides lifeless with virtual lemon honey tea10:08
persiaWell, we're nominally quorate at this point.  Shall we start at 10:10, to give a couple more minutes for elky or amachu to join us?10:09
* TheMuso is happy to wait.10:10
* KatieKitty says no probs10:10
* popey volunteers if they're not around10:10
farimihi all10:11
farimiso, what is the agenda10:12
TheMusoAgenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania10:13
persiaWho's the chair?10:13
persiaOK.  First up is DrG.10:14
persiaDrGS: Could you post a few lines to introduce yourself?10:14
DrGSI am a Doctor ; Currently doing research in genetic recombination technology10:15
DrGSfrom RGBC10:15
DrGSAlso GP in some private Hospitals .10:16
farimiso, what am I doing here again/10:16
coolbhaviDrGS, am also from India .. what does GP mean?10:17
popeyGeneral Practitioner10:17
coolbhavipopey, thanks10:17
persiaDrGS: From looking at your wiki page, it appears that most of your contributions to date have been in brainstorm.  Is that correct?10:18
persiaHave you had success in getting any of your ideas implemented in Ubuntu yet?10:19
DrGSFrugal boot time - not implemented , but very much possible .10:20
DrGSThe developer checks brainstorm about once in 6 months10:21
persiaHave you significantly shaped brainstorm in some way?10:22
DrGSYou can read my Ideas and decide10:23
persiaI meant in a way beyond the ideas.  Like working with how brainstorm works, or how ideas in brainstorm are used to affect other areas in Ubuntu.10:25
DrGSContacted brainstorm owner (nand ) and thinking about modifying the sites . I have the codes .10:26
DrGSYou can see most of my Ideas are independent .10:26
persiaAnyone else have questions?10:27
TheMusoNot I.10:28
TheMusoOnly to ask whether there is anyone here to advocate DrGS.10:28
elkysorry, here now10:30
persiaHrm.  It doesn't appear that anyone is here to support DrGS.10:30
persiaSo, voting.10:30
bundooh suapapa Hi10:31
bundoHello , persia    I'm ubuntu-ko owner. South Korea10:31
persiahi bundo10:31
bundo만나서 반갑습니다.  sharkout 에게 이야기 들었습니다.10:31
bundoNice to meet you. I heard a story sharkout.10:31
persiaI'm -1.  I think there's some good thought and work going on, but I don't feel that the work is yet "significant", in that it does not appear to have yet affected either the Ubuntu code or brainstorm (the primary area of activity).10:32
TheMusoI agree with persia, -1 also.10:32
lifelessDrGS: I think the ideas you have in brainstorm are good. However we don't currently really recognise brainstorm activity - both gardening and idea generation - as a significant contribution.10:32
suapapahello :)10:32
lifelessDrGS: Its clear you have done some significant research on some of your ideas - and one at least (the frugal boot) you seem to have implemented and tested the idea : but not got it actually into Ubuntu.10:33
lifelessDrGS: So, like persia and TheMuso I don't think you meet the criteria we look for yet.10:33
elkyDrGS, am i reading launchpad right? you only signed up 6 weeks ago? or did you have another ID?10:34
lifelessDrGS: we're looking for actual /change/ occuring - some examples of which might be:10:34
elkyif you had another ID with more stuff, then that could be helpful here10:34
lifeless - users helped (and thus the change is that they learnt)10:34
DrGSI don't have another ID10:35
lifeless - ideas that are popular in brainstorm implemented so they are in the next ubuntu release10:35
elkyok, then i second what lifeless is saying. sorry :( -110:35
lifeless - forum activity helping folk out10:35
lifeless - translations for your language10:35
coolbhaviDrGS, we at ubuntu-in have dire shortage at ubuntu-in of dedicated translators/workrs10:36
lifelessthere are many many more things - and I encourage you to keep contributing10:36
coolbhavimaybe you can help out10:36
lifelessyou're simple at the tip of the iceberg today!10:36
coolbhaviand then elevate with testimonial of a ubuntu member10:37
persiaDrGS: So, thanks for your work so far, we're looking forward to more, and we'll see you back in a few months :)  Feel free to ask any of us (or members in ubuntu-in) if you have questions about whether it's time to come back yet.10:38
persiaNext up: KatieKitty.  KatieKitty could you paste a few lines to introduce yourself?10:38
KatieKittyok thx10:38
elkycoolbhavi, thanks for the tip. we appreciate folks participating in the membership process by mentoring like this10:39
DrGSOK :)10:39
KatieKittyi am 27 From KL, Malaysia10:39
lifelessDrGS: I do love the care and attention you've put into your brainstorm ideas: getting some of them /done/ would be really nice to see.10:39
coolbhavielky, that was a simple one .. No mention :)10:39
DrGSThat is upto the Developers10:39
KatieKittycurrently working as freelance in computing stuff10:39
KatieKittylike network, maintenance etc10:40
lifelessDrGS: no, its up to all of us: the developers are not specially blessed :)10:40
KatieKittyteam leader of ubuntu-my translation & documentation team10:40
DrGSBut they are the one  who implement Ideas10:40
coolbhaviDrGS, +1 lifeless10:40
coolbhaviDrGS, power user == developer in linux in general mate10:41
elkycoolbhavi, can we request that you talk with DrGS privately about his options? :)10:41
KatieKittyshall I continue in my self introduction?10:41
coolbhavielky, sure10:41
leoquantplease do KatieKitty10:42
KatieKittyi am 27 From KL, Malaysia10:42
KatieKittycurrently working as freelance in computing stuff10:42
KatieKittylike network, maintenance etc10:42
KatieKittyteam leader of ubuntu-my translation & documentation team10:43
KatieKittybeen full time use ubuntu since feisty10:43
* KatieKitty is a ubuntu & debian lover10:43
freeflyi1gKatieKitty: you're the team leader of ubuntu-my translation, but your karma relate to translation is only 16310:45
=== freeflyi1g is now known as freeflying
KatieKittycoz we are all very inactive....10:45
KatieKittydue to work10:45
KatieKittyand most of us is already too comfortable in using english10:46
lifelessare you doing anything to get more translators?10:46
KatieKittyme and other members is trying to promote the trans & doc team in a lot of foss event10:47
KatieKittybut too bad, it is hard to get more ppl to be interested in trans & doc work...10:47
lifelessis https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ms  the my translation team ?10:47
lifelessI was just looking around, and it and https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-my-transdocs confuse me a little10:48
KatieKittywe register a few launchpad pages10:48
KatieKittysome if official, some is not10:48
KatieKittybut we use all of them10:48
KatieKittytranslation work is started since long time ago10:49
freeflyingKatieKitty: are you collaborating with ubuntu-l10n-ms10:49
lifelesshttps://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+languages/ms is your language though ?10:50
KatieKittywe are actually the same group of ppl10:50
KatieKittylifeless: yup10:50
freeflyingKatieKitty: then why shall you have so many teams on lp?10:50
lifelessso, for me, its disconcerting to see the ubuntu translation team - which is the l10n-ms one - not be the one that you refer to when you say you're the team lead10:51
KatieKittytrans & doc is officially builded after meeting in #ubuntu-my10:51
lifelessthe team you talk about doesn't have translation review privileges for ubuntu ms translations10:51
KatieKittyand i was voted to become the team leader of that10:51
freeflyingKatieKitty: do you anyone here to support you then?10:52
elkywho is the leader of ubuntu-l10n-ms?10:52
KatieKittyactually it can be verified by asking ejat a.k.a fenris10:52
KatieKittybut he seems like din make it online in time10:52
lifelesselky: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ms/+members#proposed - there are a few admins10:52
lifelessand ~mypapit owns the team10:53
lifelessanyhow, thats moot: if you have a new team and its all approved in the -my loco thats cool10:53
KatieKittytranslation management work was transferred to me after a meeting...10:53
lifelessIt is odd that you haven't gotten the sysadmins to add it as a translation team for Malay10:53
farimiactualy they are the same people... mostly10:53
lifelessfarimi: yeah thats fine.10:54
elkyi'm 0 based purely on confusion.10:54
KatieKittywe are actually the same group of ppl in #ubuntu-my10:54
lifelesswhat its saying to me is that an important thing - the ability to review translations, which these folk should be able to do - hasn't been actioned in 3 months10:54
KatieKittyanyone is free, then do the work10:54
* persia hunts up some translation folk10:55
lifelessand actioning it just takes a single 'question' on answers.launchpad.net10:55
persiaKatieKitty: How are your translations typically distributed to end-users?10:55
KatieKittyactually currently, ubuntu-my is more focus on getting more supporter for ubuntu as well as active in foss activities10:55
lifelesslets move on though: you are team lead there, but busy with work so not doing much yourself, but trying to increase the team size10:56
KatieKittypersia: honestly, i still have no idea yet, usually everything i will have to ask fenris 1st10:56
lifelesspersia: the l10n-ms team has 9 unapproved proposed members.10:56
persialifeless: Yeah.10:56
lifelesspersia: I think its a bit under-maintained - and katiekitty isn't an admin in that team.10:56
KatieKittyactually i think that ubuntu-my should have another official meeting in irx10:57
KatieKittybut too bad, everyone is bz...10:57
KatieKittyand hard to find a time that everyone is online at the same time10:57
persiaI think I'm with elky: 0 due to confusion.10:58
lifelessis there anyone online to champion you - e.g. as reference for your user support in #ubunu-my10:58
TheMusopersia, elky, agreed. 010:58
KatieKittyi try to call fenris to online10:58
freeflying0 from me10:58
KatieKittysee if he reach home already or not10:58
farimiso,katiekitty is building traslation team?10:59
lifelessKatieKitty: so I see a lot of projects you have, but they are mostly things built /on/ linux. Your direct contributions seem to be partly translation [and idle at the moment due to work] and11:01
lifelessuser support in the -my irc channel.11:01
lifelessKatieKitty: is that right ?11:01
KatieKittytalking to fenris on the phone11:01
lifelesss/linux/Ubuntu/ above11:01
KatieKittyhe s trying to online now...11:01
KatieKittysorry for the delay11:02
KatieKittyfenris is trying to online from a cafe to verify my status11:02
KatieKittylifeless: actually those projects in my wiki profile is done with only a few person11:03
KatieKittythose are actually just a remastered version of ubuntu only....11:03
lifelesswhat is the #ubuntu-my channel ?11:03
lifelessis it captured on irclogs.ubuntu.com?11:04
KatieKitty#ubuntu-my channel is the official channel for ubuntu-my loco11:04
ubottuOfficial channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/11:04
KatieKittyi think so11:04
elkyit'll be under the latter11:04
KatieKittythere is 2 bot there11:04
ejatlifeless: yes .. its log11:04
ejathi elky11:04
ejathi all11:04
KatieKittyhi ejat11:04
lifelessthanks elky11:04
KatieKittythank god u online now11:05
lifelessheh no timestamps11:05
elkyejat, hi. we're all totally confused as to what the malay translation teams are11:05
KatieKittyejat: sorry for call u last minutes11:05
ejatKatieKitty: i hv to use my phone ...11:05
ejatelky: ?11:05
ejatmalay translation team ?11:05
elkythe my translation team11:05
ejatowh its about translate to malay11:05
ejatany application .. ubuntu documentation11:06
KatieKittyejat: they need ur verification about https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-my-transdocs11:06
ejatKatieKitty: leading the team .. under ubuntu-my locoteam11:06
persiaejat: Can you explain the difference between ubuntu-my-transdocs and ubuntu-l10n-ms ?11:07
lifelessejat: also its not set up as a translation team in rosetta though, which is odd.11:07
lifelessok, so having had a brief look on the irc logs, I'm also 0 at this point.11:08
persiaAny other questions for KatieKitty ?11:09
persiaErr, nevermind.11:09
persiaI read the logs wrong.  We've all voted.11:09
persiaKatieKitty: I'd recommend you try to sort out the confusion regarding the translation team, and get it active again.  When done, come back :)11:10
lifelessKatieKitty: We're really looking for something a bit more tangible. The projects on your wiki page are ones that are /around/ Ubuntu not part of Ubuntu itself. The translation team you're leading isn't fully setup in rosetta - one of the responsibilities for the team leader!11:10
lifelessI can see you're active a bit most days in #ubuntu-my, and thats great, but its not enough on its own.11:11
ejatlifeless: i agreed with u ..11:11
lifelessejat: thank you for popping online11:12
BelutzSorry for being late11:12
ejatnvm .. my broadband hv prob .. now online with my phone ..11:12
ejathi Belutz11:12
Belutzejat: hi11:12
ejatKatieKitty: leading more toward the documentation , tutorial n malaysia ..11:12
ejaton the wiki.ubuntu.com.my11:13
farimiyes true11:13
ejatfor application translation .. we still under ubuntu-l10n-ms11:14
ejatteam in rosetta ..11:14
ejatexample .. our malay translation for firefox n a few other gnome application ..11:14
lifelessKatieKitty: something you should do - this is a strong recommendation - talk to the rosetta (launchpad translations) developers about your teams11:15
lifelessget those two teams setup properly in a way they are happy with.11:15
KatieKittylifeless: ok....11:15
lifelessif the l10n team admins are gone you can be made an admin, or whatever. But as it is it is very unclear.11:16
KatieKittywill do that soon11:16
ejatlifeless: but a part of the translation team11:16
elkyKatieKitty, if you could fix all this and make it sensible, then that'd be something that would make me impressed enough to change my vote. that'd be *real* leadership :)11:16
ejatKatieKitty: contribute a lot in ubuntu-my activities11:16
persiaOK.  I think we've all given appropriate advice now. :)11:17
persiaKatieKitty: Please feel free to ask any of us privately if you feel you need more.11:17
KatieKittypersia: thank you....11:17
persiaAnyone have anything else they need to bring before the board today?11:17
KatieKittypersia: will do.....11:17
lifelessI'll be away next meeting11:17
ejatKatieKitty: u still have a chance if u follow their advice :)11:18
lifelesseu timezone. I may be online but can't be sure.11:18
Belutzpersia, yes, I will be more active again from now on :)11:18
KatieKittyejat: yeah, i'll try my best.....11:18
persiaBelutz: It will be good to have you back.11:18
ejatyeah .. Belutz away for quite sometime11:18
persialifeless: We should be OK, as long as Belutz makes it.11:18
Belutzpersia, thanks, moving to a startup company is killing me11:18
persiaNext meeting is the 26th.11:18
* persia updates the wiki pages.11:19
TheMusoI should be able to make next meeting11:19
elkyBelutz, startups should carry health warnings.11:19
TheMusoI know I haven't been visible as much as I should have been.11:19
Belutzelky, yup11:19
KatieKittypersia: i have a question, do contribution to activities such as in ubuntu events can be used for consideration for applying for membership at here?11:19
persiaKatieKitty: If the event is used to promote or improve Ubuntu, yes, but you'll want to be someone involved in making the event happen, rather than just someone attending.11:20
elkyKatieKitty, if documented, yes. also teams like marketing (they can use UWN translated), ubuntu-women, etc.11:20
BelutzI hope everybody in asia oceania board are healthy and a late happy new year :D11:22
KatieKittyelky: actually i am a male....11:22
ejatBelutz: hopefully ..11:22
KatieKittyso i am not in ubuntu-women......11:22
elkyKatieKitty, oh sorry for the confusion there :(11:23
* KatieKitty is virtually female, physically male11:23
elkyalthough, gender doesn't matter so long as you believe in and are willing to stand by the ideals11:23
ejat+1 elky :)11:24
elkyKatieKitty, you wouldn't be alone.11:24
KatieKittyelky: thats y i joined fosschix-my, lol11:24
ejatelky: hows ya new year ?11:25
KatieKittycoz i believe in females can do a lot in opensource11:25
ejatelky: i will persue the chix in MY .. to join11:25
elkyejat, it is ok. yours?11:25
ejatelky: yeah .. hope can meet u again this year :)11:25
elkyi think this meeting is closed now, so we should move social talk to elsewhere11:25
ejatelky: yeah ..11:25
wet oops ..11:44
=== Mamarok_ is now known as Mamarok
=== fader|away is now known as fader_
MootBotMeeting started at 06:59. The chair is NCommander.12:59
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]12:59
* asac waves13:00
* JamieBennett waves back13:00
* ogra moos13:00
asacpersia: ogra: dyfet: davidm_: plars: StevenK: ping13:00
asacGrueMaster: ping13:00
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/2010011213:00
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/2010011213:00
NCommander[link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html13:00
MootBotLINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html13:00
asacNCommander: no topic?13:01
NCommander[topic] Action Item Review13:01
MootBotNew Topic:  Action Item Review13:01
JamieBennettalso cooloney ping13:01
asacericm not here13:01
NCommander[topic] NCommander to invite relevant kernel people to the next meeting.13:01
MootBotNew Topic:  NCommander to invite relevant kernel people to the next meeting.13:01
asaci made them aware ... guess the reminder mail didnt go to them though, right?13:02
NCommanderasac, yeah. I had talked to both of them though13:02
NCommanderhey ericm_13:02
ericm_hey NCommander13:02
ograNCommander, they should be on the list for the reminder mail13:02
asacok, do we need an action or will this happen now?13:02
ograNCommander, or be invited to the gcal event13:02
asacpersia: NCommander:?13:02
asacok, lets carry it over to see if it happens next time :)13:03
NCommander[action] NCommander to add mobile kernel devs to gcal event13:03
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to add mobile kernel devs to gcal event13:03
persiaThey should be subscribed to the mailing list, or manage their calendars well :)13:03
NCommander[topic] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere13:03
MootBotNew Topic:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere13:03
persiaWe had the meeting.  I'm not yet done with a wiki page.  Can we defer this until later in the meeting?13:04
NCommander[action] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)13:04
MootBotACTION received:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)13:04
asacwe should carry that forward. the wiki isnt done yet13:04
NCommander[topic] ogra, asac, NCommander to blog on planet about ARM work13:04
MootBotNew Topic:  ogra, asac, NCommander to blog on planet about ARM work13:04
* StevenK waves13:05
persiaDon't carry it forward yet: come back during this meeting :)13:05
ogranothing intresting to blog about yet13:05
JamieBennettogra: uboot work?13:05
ograi'll blog about the babbage switch to uboot once thats working13:05
asacno success story there yet13:05
* cooloney waves13:05
ograand about rootstock changes once i have any :)13:05
NCommander[topic] Work item review13:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Work item review13:06
ograi dont think we need an action item for it though13:06
NCommanderAs a reminder, all work items due for A2 are due, and mus tbe marked complete, or postponed13:06
NCommanderasac, JamieBennett, how goes the MIRs for 2d launcher?13:06
JamieBennettSeems we have some resolution13:07
asacwe committed to take care of the main concern13:07
JamieBennett2 MIR's still need reviewing though13:07
* ogra moves uboot to A313:07
asacso the MIR for embryo is probably unblocked13:07
ogra... with a tear in my eye13:07
JamieBennettJust need pitti to approve it now13:07
* NCommander gives ogra a tissue13:07
NCommander[topic] asac to report on Chromiums licensing issue progress13:07
MootBotNew Topic:  asac to report on Chromiums licensing issue progress13:08
JamieBennettall other non-blocking issues have bugs filed in debian13:08
asaci plan to go through the blueprints for alpha-3 with each of you now13:08
asacthats done. its in my AR ...13:08
asacquite good progress, just a few rough edges left13:08
NCommander[topic] Current Items13:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Current Items13:08
NCommanderThe burndown chart for A2 is looking good13:08
MootBotLINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html13:08
dmartStupid question: how do I mark an action as complete?13:09
asacyeah, so on friday we were still at trendline, since then not much happened, as expected13:09
asacdmart: flip from TODO to DONE13:09
asacin the blueprint13:09
ogradmart, you write [DONE] behind it in the whiteboard13:09
asacif you finished items, please set them to DONE.13:09
ograon the blueprint page13:09
asaci will go through the blueprints later this week for the alpha-3 planning13:09
asacand do the cleanup13:09
persiaAnd report it in an action report on the meeting page :)13:10
persia(if it's a significant thing)13:10
dmartOf course, will do13:10
JamieBennettNeed to get alpha-2 targeted blueprints re-targeted if they are not at 100% awell13:10
asacdmart: yes, feel free to add your own entry to that wiki :)13:10
asacwe would love to have more contributors presenting their work there13:10
* JamieBennett agrees13:10
asacso ... one more word on the action items13:11
asaci think there are still action items that dont need upload to archive13:11
asacthose can still be finished this week13:11
ogradont forget we're working on the alpha13:11
asacnot everyone13:12
* persia is ready for kernel backport discussion when the agenda has a slot13:12
NCommanderIs there anything to discuss on Ubuntu Liquid?13:12
ograwed and thu are usually stressful days during alpha periods13:12
asacNCommander: what is the problem with the alternate images?13:12
asacits at 71%13:12
NCommanderasac, I haven't managed to actually install one13:12
NCommanderasac, a lot of churn in the archive causes the resulting image to be uninstallable, as in a package fails to install or the like.13:12
StevenKI think arm-une should be retargetted to A3, we don't have the launcher in main yet13:13
asacrbelem: ian_brasil_: you are also invited to add your stuff to the wiki13:13
ian_brasil_asac, ok we will13:13
NCommanderasac, now that we're in freeze, I should have better success, and will be retesting today13:13
JamieBennettStevenK It is at alpha-3 now13:13
GrueMasterI tried the dove alternate image last Friday and had a package install failure.  Not sure what package.13:13
asacNCommander: thanks. let me know. i would love to not drag everything to alpha-3 ... we already have enough to do there13:13
NCommanderGrueMaster, today's should be better as we've entered main freeze13:14
NCommanderian_brasil_, rbelem anything to report on Ubuntu Liquid?13:14
rbelemNCommander, yep13:14
ograGrueMaster, save installer logs !13:14
ograthey usually say which package13:15
rbelemNCommander, we packaged the plasma-mobile13:15
asacogra: can you keep the uboot still on a2 please13:15
asacthe problem is the work item tracker is a mess13:15
ograasac, hrm, ok13:15
* ogra rolls back13:15
asace.g. you cannot move just what is left to a313:15
rbelemNCommander, outside the kdebase13:15
ograasac, moved back13:15
asacogra: we can do that on release day13:15
rbelemNCommander, started to work on the seeds13:16
asacmaybe we should have a real topic for liquid?13:16
asacstanding item?13:16
NCommanderrbelem, excellent. I look forward to further progress on l13:16
* NCommander has no objection13:16
rbelemrbelem, we will now on customize kdm and kwin for mobile13:17
NCommanderI'll add it for the next meeting13:17
Riddellrbelem: what's all this?13:17
rbelemNCommander, ^13:17
asac[action] asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting13:17
asachmm cant take actions :)13:17
NCommander[action] asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting13:17
MootBotACTION received:  asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting13:17
NCommanderasac, only the chair has the power to do so13:17
persiaUm, why asac?13:17
NCommander[topic] Standing Items13:17
MootBotNew Topic:  Standing Items13:17
persiaNCommander: Wait.  Not yet.13:17
asacpersia: to give them a slot where we can discuss roadblocks etc.13:18
* persia wants to talk about kernel backporting for FSL13:18
asacand see progress ;)13:18
rbelemRiddell, we will work on plasma mobile to be the shell for ubuntu liquid13:18
asacpersia: we can discuss that in kernel status standing item ;)13:18
rbelemRiddell, i will help arthur with the code and etc13:19
asacpersia: do you have concerns with having a slot for liquid?13:19
persiaasac: No.  I just don't understand why the action is assigned to you, rather than the chair :)13:19
asacheh. ok13:19
persiaDoesn't matter.  Let's go on.13:19
Riddellrbelem: that's the sort of thing the Kubuntu team would be interested in hearing about13:20
asacbecause i added a bunch of them this time already13:20
rbelemRiddell, yep :-)13:20
rbelemRiddell, we really want your help13:20
NCommanderAny objection if I continue?13:20
NCommander[topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)13:20
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)13:20
asaci would think Riddell and rbelem can do that offline13:21
JamieBennettNCommander did you miss - dmart: Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?13:21
JamieBennettOr did I ?13:21
NCommanderoh, *grumble*13:21
asacone word on the standing items:13:21
NCommander[topic] Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?13:21
MootBotNew Topic:  Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?13:21
dmartDid everyone see the link to the wiki?13:21
cooloneyyeah, guys, i think i updated the status for fsl-imx51 on the wiki13:21
asacok waiting13:21
asacdmart: yes, thank you very much.13:21
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList13:21
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList13:21
asacdmart: i wondered if you had the the grep lines of concerns there ...13:22
asacwould probably be helpful in order to spot the code to look at when verifying if a package needs a fix etc.13:22
dmartThe detail is in the page attachments13:22
asacthats the full blob, yes.13:22
asacwe can use that13:22
NCommanderI think the easiest way we could go forward with the review is a divide and conquer approach, and we simply assign packages to people.13:23
asaca more compressed form would have been easier, but its fine i guess13:23
dmartThe filtered output has names like search-arm-swp.filt.gz13:23
dmartThis is far as it's easy to go automatically13:23
asacwe could have had a per-package filter13:23
dmartWhat about prioritisation?  Main comes before universe, but beyone that, I'm not sure.13:24
asac[action] asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.13:24
NCommander[action] asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.13:24
MootBotACTION received:  asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.13:24
ogradmart, on-cd more important than off-cd13:24
asacdmart: i think we could check the conut or rdepends and go for those with more first13:24
persiaI think we'd want to prioritise stuff that ends up in images beyond stuff that doesn'T.13:24
asacbut lets discuss that after meeting13:24
persiaOr in build-depends/depends ordering.13:25
dmartOK, we can discuss that offline13:25
NCommander[topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)13:25
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)13:25
asacso one word on the new standing items13:25
asaci added a few and added nicks next to them ... to reflect who i think would be good at doing this13:26
asacif you disagree let me know ... if you think it makes no sense, let me know either13:26
asacalso ... i added it this, week, so if you dont have anything this time its fine13:26
cooloneyright, asac i added fsl-imx51 already13:26
* ericm_ has just finished updated the kernel status on wiki13:26
persiahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport talks about the results of the backporting discussion13:26
asac[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport13:26
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport13:26
cooloney 2.6.31 Freescale BSP patches based kernel source was uploaded on Jan 11. Kernel packages cross compiled was tested on ogra and cooloney hardware. Freescale updated final BSP is just released. I will try to review the new kernel patches and try to apply them for testing.13:27
asacthat sounds good13:27
ogradist upgrade on my babbage board is still running, i should be able to test the in-archive soon kernel after the meeting13:27
ericm_Marvell's patchset based on v2.6.32.2 has been rebased again on top of lucid, config files sorted out, and building is OK. There are several issues though (not specifically related to this patchset) including: unexpected segfaults and X desktop freezing, still investigating the root cause with Marvell, and this is holding the patches from being uploaded atm.13:27
ogra* the in-archive kernel soon13:28
asacericm_: do we have bugs for those issues?13:28
ericm_asac, yes13:28
asacwould be great to have those in that status info13:28
ericm_asac, ok13:28
ograplease make sure to have ubuntu-armel subscribed to such bugs13:28
ograthat way the team gets them automatically13:29
asacso cooloney and ericm_ and everyone: ensure that you subscribe ubuntu-armel and add the armel tag13:29
asaceven if the package is armel only13:29
ericm_bug 504880 and bug 50577213:29
asacits easier for us to pull a list of all issues13:29
ubottuLaunchpad bug 504880 in linux-mvl-dove "[dove] possibility of thumb2 instructions invalidly being handled" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/50488013:29
ubottuLaunchpad bug 505772 in linux-mvl-dove "system freezes sometimes after X is up for a while" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/50577213:29
asacalso ensure that bad bugs are milestoned and targetted for lucid (aka on release team radar)13:29
asacericm_: thanks13:29
asacatm dove doesnt work at all?13:30
asacor is that just random frequen crashes?13:30
NCommanderasac, it works, but its extremely unhappy.13:30
ericm_asac, I'll say - doesn't work at all13:30
ericm_not able to install even13:30
asacok targetted both bugs for lucid13:30
ericm_interestingly, this doesn't happen on karmic or even lucid-alpha-113:30
asacso its a regression in kernel?13:31
ericm_and this happen as well with karmic kernel, so there are some new issues indeed we never found13:31
asacdo we have .32 on dove already?13:31
ericm_I'd say - it's not a regression13:31
ogradoesnt sound like kernel at all13:31
ericm_asac, I've already rebased .32 on dove13:31
ograuploaded ?13:32
ograi.e. is it in any image atm ?13:32
ericm_ogra, not yet - apw said it's not suitable13:32
NCommanderericm_, there are known issues with thumb2 mode with the karmic kernel according to Marvell; we fixed the thumb2 quirk which helped with the stability, but still didn't solve it13:32
asacthats good.13:32
ericm_I guess we need to root cause those issues before an upload is made13:32
asaci mean: that its not suitable -> its not uploaded :-13:32
ograericm_, right, so the issues we see wrt X etc are unlikely to come from the kernel13:32
ericm_ogra, I can run in console quite happily13:33
NCommanderericm_, try compiling stuff at the console13:33
ericm_ogra, it indeed looks to be something related to X13:33
ograbut X fails even with the karmic kernel13:33
NCommanderericm_, once theboard gets unde rload, you run into segfaults13:33
ericm_NCommander, ok - will do13:33
asacogra: we had kernel fixes for instructions before13:33
ericm_ogra, exactly13:33
asacericm_: what crashes are you getting? segfaults or sigill?13:33
NCommanderX works here13:33
NCommanderasac, combination of both13:33
ograasac, i know, but kernel wouldnt be the first ting i'd look13:33
ericm_asac, I guess as NCommander suggested - that single fix doesn't solve all the potential issue13:34
ericm_seems to me13:34
asacogra: sure. we have the thumb list by dmart ;)13:34
ograright :)13:34
asacor compiler13:34
NCommanderdmart, is there some sorta thumb test kit that runs through all the instructions that we could run on dove?13:34
ogramost likely compiler/binutils13:34
ericm_NCommander, would be good if you could test the .32 kernel your side13:34
asaci dont see any debug info on the X crashes to attached13:34
NCommanderericm_, I did13:34
asaccan we file a bug against X for that for now?13:34
dmartNCommander: I don't know. I can enquire13:34
NCommanderericm_, no improvement13:35
ericm_asac, it just freezes - so no crash report13:35
plarsit's more like a full system hang, not just X crashing13:35
ograno ssh ?13:35
NCommanderdmart, thanks. If such a beast exists, it might help us find the problem13:35
asacericm_: maybe you can still log in or use console and get a dump?13:35
NCommanderasac, when it hangs, the board counter stops, or it goes completely non-responsive13:35
dmartNCommander: I'll enquire at my end and see if something is available.13:36
asacplars: ^13:36
NCommanderdmart, thanks :-).13:36
ericm_asac, no - the debug hex led even stops counting13:36
GrueMasterogra: ssh isn't on the live image, and no it doesn't work even if added.13:36
ograGrueMaster, thanks :)13:36
ericm_asac, so I'm trying to find some doc to see if that hex led is a software watchdog something13:36
ericm_NCommander, do you have the detailed docs like schematics and developer manuals?13:37
NCommanderericm_, the counter is driven by software13:37
NCommanderericm_, we do have them, I'll send you a message13:37
ericm_NCommander, cool13:37
ericm_NCommander, so it could the kernel just locks up - yet not able to see anything from the serial console13:38
asacdo X apps work fine if you run them through ssh (e.g. without X server running)?13:38
NCommanderasac, X for me works.13:38
ericm_asac, I'll try that on my side13:38
NCommanderasac, but its just a matter of time before the board hangs13:38
ericm_one other thing I noticed is gnome-panel seems to respawn again and again13:39
asacright. try without X and see if that goes away13:39
asacthen we hvae only xserver and kernel left most likely13:39
GrueMasterYesterday's live image starts X, but hangs shortly after rendering the desktop and before the panel fully loads.13:39
asacericm_: that indicates a crash. we should be able to get a backtrace on that then13:39
ericm_GrueMaster, is that on dove?13:39
asacbtw, is apport enabled?13:39
GrueMasterJust booted it.13:39
persiaAs much as it's nice to go through individual issues, aren't we drifting from topic a bit?  I'd expect a lot of this could be covered in #ubuntu-arm (as it seems arm-specific)13:39
ogradefine "yesterdays image" :)13:39
ericm_asac, ok - just have no idea where to find the log of those gtk/gdk messages13:39
ograthere were no builds since the 8th13:40
ericm_asac, I guess so - yet not able to see the apport icon on the taskbar13:40
GrueMaster20100111 daily.13:40
asacpersia: i agree somewhat, though without having a way forward its bad to stop the topic13:40
ograthats actually 2010010813:40
plarsGrueMaster: alternate maybe? live images haven't been rebuilt13:40
asaclets move that offline after meeting13:40
ericm_asac, I mean - apport doesn't seem to find anything wrong from it's last run13:40
NCommander[action eric, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging13:40
NCommander[action] ericm, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging13:40
MootBotACTION received:  ericm, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging13:40
NCommander[topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)13:40
MootBotNew Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)13:40
plarsthe bringup testing blueprint is, for all practical purposes, done, plan to start running through that and posting results asap13:41
asac(GrueMaster: plars: anything important? i dont expect you to have a formal report prepared for this week )13:41
plarsbut might be lagged slightly by systems being tied up with alpha testing this week13:41
GrueMasterNothing new to report as of yet.  QA on dove is stalled due to hanging images.13:41
asacplars: great news. can we set that to implemented? ;)13:42
plars...and lack of new images13:42
plarsany ETA on that?13:42
plarsasac: there is one WI set for a3, which we discussed13:42
plarsjust to gather more arm-specific info if possible13:42
asacright. but thats after implemented13:42
asacthere are a few more stages ;)13:42
asacor waits deployment maybe13:42
asacanyway, i will go through specs anyway, so dont bother13:42
plarsasac: sure then13:42
NCommander[topic] ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)13:43
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)13:43
JamieBennettUmm, not looked at ARM specific's this week13:43
asaci think nothing to report on this this week13:43
JamieBennettasac: what were you expecting from this item?13:43
asaclets move on ... we can check that after the meeting13:44
ograthere is still a good bunch of stuff on the ftbfs list13:44
JamieBennettnoting that you FTBFS and plars/Gruemaster to report bugs too?13:44
NCommander[topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)13:44
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)13:44
NCommanderBunch of FTBFS's fixed13:44
NCommanderlibtool && ocmal being the hilights here13:45
NCommanderKDE's broken again13:45
asacyeah. good progress so far (but new stuff is tickling in)13:45
asacNCommander: did you go through the list of failures and gave back those that failed because of libtool?13:45
ogragd2 and gphoto look bad13:45
ogralv4l too13:45
asacogra: one of those is libtool iirc13:45
ograpostgres ...13:45
ogrameh and plymouth13:46
NCommanderasac, not all of them. just the obvious ones.13:46
NCommanderasac, i didn't spend as much on the failure list as I would have liked. Friday was hetic13:46
asacogra: postgres is fix committed13:46
ograplymounth is seeded since yesterday13:46
asacpitti hasnt uploaded my fix yet13:46
ograsomeone should look at it13:46
asaci can go through the ftbfs again and assign bugs13:47
asacin the long run i would hope that dyfet and NCommander would do that regularly13:47
asacbut for now i am fine to do that13:47
ograwhy, leave it to them :)13:47
ograthey are grown up guys :)13:47
NCommander[topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)13:48
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)13:48
* NCommander thinks he should be on this one13:49
ograclemetine has her monthlies ...13:49
* persia was so excited by ogra's return from holiday that no image status was checked all week. Next week something may be reported13:49
ograbut an image build is running as we speak13:49
StevenKSurely there has to be a better way to state that.13:49
ograStevenK, she was misbehaving and angry13:49
asacgood. for now its top prio to get A2 images going13:49
NCommanderStevenK, surely, but I do admit ogra has a way with words.13:49
ograand died directly after rebooting13:50
ograthis time the machine stayed up ... and i fired off a build13:50
ograwith luck we'll have images in 2-3h13:50
asacok i optimistically take this as A2 images are on track13:50
ograup to the 8th at least imx51 looks good13:50
NCommander[topic] Any Other Business13:51
asacooo failed to build13:51
MootBotNew Topic:  Any Other Business13:51
ografreeze is in place so everything should be in sync atm13:51
NCommanderasac, *wince*, not again.13:51
asacso we might need some slangasek help on that (i think he already did that)13:51
ograoo.o failes on all but x86 amd6413:51
asacsomeone can take the action to fix our seeds so they dont block on armel?13:51
ograasac, i'll care for it if it gets in our way13:51
asacNCommander: ^^ action please13:51
NCommander[action] ogra to change seeds to route around OOo13:52
MootBotACTION received:  ogra to change seeds to route around OOo13:52
ogra[action] ogra to care for seed changes to get oo.o off the image13:52
* NCommander was tempted to say braindamage instead ...13:52
persiaNO need to change the seeds, just reupload the -meta.  germinate will automatically do the right thing per-arch.13:52
NCommanderpersia, it won't13:52
ograpersia, nope13:52
NCommanderpersia, the arch all packages cause issues.13:52
* NCommander remembers when this happened in karmic13:52
ograpersia, tranbslations are a beast wrt oo.o13:52
persiaAh.  That's probably a bug :)13:52
cooloneyogra: one quick question, what version GCC we are using for build imx51?13:52
* NCommander sighs13:52
asaccurrent gcc 4.413:53
ogracooloney, the one in the archive :)13:53
asaci think its 4.4.213:53
NCommanderWhy the hell do people upload massive packages hours before A2 freeze13:53
cooloneyogra: i just found fsl kernel patch revert the kernel compiling flag to 4.1.213:53
persiaNCommander: To avoid uploading them after the freeze?13:53
ScottKNCommander: Which?13:53
StevenKWhat ScottK said13:53
asacNCommander: ooo was explicitly requested by slangasek because the isos were oversized13:53
NCommanderpersia, ScottK, OOo13:53
cooloneyasac: ogra thanks, will talk with freescale guys later13:53
persiaNCommander: Also:13:53
ubottuPlease remember that all Ubuntu IRC channels share the same attitude of providing friendly and polite interaction with all users of all ages and cultures. Basically, this means no foul language and no abuse towards others.13:53
ogracooloney, 4.1 isnt in ubuntu anymore i think13:53
NCommanderasac, ok, fair enough13:53
StevenKgcc-4.1 does still exist in Lucid13:54
NCommanderogra, its still in universe13:54
asacis "why the hell" really offensive ;)13:54
StevenK   gcc-4.1 | 4.1.2-27ubuntu1 | lucid/universe | source, amd64, i38613:54
ograah, universe13:54
ograno option anyway :)13:54
persiaasac: At least it hits the highlight filters.13:54
ScottKNCommander: The real problem was breaking mesa on Friday and leaving it broken for 72 hours13:54
ScottKasac: Depends on context, but it can be.13:55
* StevenK is *still* grumbling about that13:55
ograyeah, 3D sucks13:55
persiaNo, breaking stuff and disappearing for the weekend sucks13:55
NCommanderScottK, ow.13:55
ograi thought we had a rule for that13:55
asacScottK: whats the status on mesa? is that now fixed?13:55
ScottKIt's fixed13:56
cooloneyogra: my cross compile gcc is 4.3.313:56
ScottKBut that's why KDE and OOo are behind13:56
ScottKKDE 4.3.90 was uploaded before it was broken even13:56
asacok. i agree that friday night uploads are not sensible ... especially towards community that spend their weekend time and are blocked13:56
ogracooloney, yeah, the kernel package needs to use whatever is the default in the archive though13:56
ogracooloney, for testing codesourcery is usually fine13:56
asacScottK: so is there anything that needs to get done for KDE wrt a2 and armel?13:58
ograasac, a time machine ?13:58
ScottKasac: Nope.  It looks like everything is building.13:58
asacok so it just needs to get build13:58
NCommanderogra, I'd disagree. The archive toolchain should be used in all cases because CodeSourcery may have patches that change or fix bugs that aren't in mainline.13:58
asacseems all 7 builders for armel are active13:58
ScottKWe don't have any A2 milestones around armel, so we'll try to stay out of your way13:58
asacand queue is empty13:58
ograNCommander, for a quick test CodeSourcery is really ok13:58
NCommanderogra, fair enough.13:59
cooloneyogra: understand, i will let freescale guys know that13:59
ScottKasac: Once kdebase-workspace publishes the queue will fill again.13:59
asaccooloney: what is this about?13:59
asac(seems i missed something in scrollback)13:59
asacScottK: yeah. ok. thanks13:59
asacok. more AOB?14:00
asacotherwise we have a perfect 1h ;)14:00
MootBotMeeting finished at 08:00.14:00
asacthanks all14:00
ograasac, seems tehre is a patch in the FSL source that enforces gcc 4.114:00
cooloneyasac: i am applying the latest fsl bsp kernel patches which is just released14:00
* NCommander drags himself back to bed for a bit14:00
cooloneyasac: but found that a patch force us to use old gcc 4.1.214:00
ograbut lets carry that over to #ubuntu-arm14:00
asacouch. yes, thats not acceptable14:00
cooloneyasac: so i built failed with my 4.3.3 cross compiler14:00
asaccooloney: at best use 4.4 even ;)14:01
cooloneyasac: yeah, i will email freescale about that, and let you and ogra in the email loop14:01
ericm_asac, do we have a 4.4 cross compiler ready on x8614:01
ericm_asac, so we save our trouble to upload14:01
cooloneyasac: yeah, right, i am just browsing the codesourcery website for that14:01
cooloneyericm_: do you know that?14:01
* persia points to parallel discussion in #ubuntu-arm14:01
ericm_cooloney, none I know14:02
asaclets move to -arm14:02
=== ericm_ is now known as ericm-Zzz
cjwatsonKeybuk not on IRC; I've pinged pitti and sabdfl14:54
cjwatsonmdz: TB meeting in 6?14:54
mdzcjwatson: yep14:55
keesScottK: are you around for tech board meeting ?14:56
ScottKkees: Just heading out the door for $WORK meetings.  I don't have anything useful to report on the KDE or MOTU stuff anyway.14:57
keesScottK: okay, noted. thanks!14:57
* cjwatson grabs a quick coffee14:59
=== robbiew_ is now known as robbiew
MootBotMeeting started at 09:01. The chair is cjwatson.15:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]15:01
cjwatsonstill looking for pitti; cvd is looking for sabdfl; Keybuk is offline15:01
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
cjwatsonphoning Keybuk15:03
cjwatsonno reply15:03
cjwatsonOK, we're barely quorate I suppose.  Let's proceed15:04
cjwatson[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda15:04
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda15:04
cjwatson[TOPIC] Action review15:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Action review15:04
cjwatson[LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000658.html15:04
MootBotLINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000658.html15:04
cjwatsonmdz to fix language wrt cmdline meaning in Unit policy15:04
mdzcjwatson: have looked all around for Mark; I think we should start without him15:04
mdzcjwatson: that action was obsoleted during the meeting when I noted it had already been fixed15:04
cjwatsonit was in the minutes.  ack.15:05
cjwatsonkees to present Units policy to Debian TC via bdale15:05
keesI emailed bdale today15:05
cjwatsonok, keep us informed15:05
cjwatsoncjwatson to document meanings of archive vs. ports, cdimage vs. releases, etc.15:05
cjwatsondone today on UbuntuDevelopment/PackageArchive, although (as per mail) I could do with a statement of which releases lpia was officially supported for15:06
cjwatsonbut otherwise this action is done15:06
cjwatsoncjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places15:06
cjwatsoncjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added15:06
cjwatsonkubuntu-dev done; I asked superm1 about the mythbuntu-dev bit this morning but haven't got a response yet, so will carry that part over to make sure this gets done15:07
cjwatsonScottK to update [Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy] based on kubuntu upstream feedback15:07
keesIIUC, I don't think anything meaningful has come from upstream on that yet15:07
cjwatsonScottK said he wouldn't be here, but the wiki page has not been changed15:07
cjwatsonwill carry over15:07
cjwatsonkees to follow up with ScottK on Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy updates15:07
cjwatsonoh, was that not dependent on the upstream feedback?15:08
keesright, it was to ping scottk15:08
cjwatsonkees to clean up further and re-present [execute permission policy] at next meeting15:08
keesalso done15:08
Riddellthe upstream status is that this needs approving http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft15:08
keeswell, updated, haven't represented, obviously.  :)15:08
Riddellwhich I'll work on15:08
cjwatsonRiddell: ah, thanks, perhaps that could be linked from the wiki?15:08
cjwatsonsabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate, and clarify his role15:09
cjwatsonanyone know if this happened?15:09
cjwatsonsabdfl to update bug with status and discussion15:09
cjwatsonMark updated the bug just after the last meeting15:09
mdzcjwatson: no, I don't think anything has happened on the CC front (from watching their meeting agenda)15:10
cjwatsonthanks, I'll carry that over then15:10
mdzcjwatson: mark just arrived back at his desk15:10
* cjwatson waits ...15:10
sabdflhello all15:11
cjwatsonhi Mark15:11
cjwatsonjust going through actions from the last meeting, one from you15:12
cjwatsonsabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate, and clarify his role15:12
=== KatieKitty is now known as Guest49935
sabdflnot done - I was on holiday during the last CC meeting15:12
=== Guest49935 is now known as KatieKitty1
cjwatsonok, will carry over then15:12
cjwatson[TOPIC] Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)15:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)15:13
cjwatsonmost of the activity here was represented in action items, otherwise I've been on holiday / buried in deathmarch project15:13
cjwatsonanything to raise?15:13
=== KatieKitty1 is now known as KatieKitty
* cjwatson times out15:14
cjwatson[TOPIC] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy15:14
MootBotNew Topic:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy15:14
cjwatsonI assume that this is blocked on ScottK's action item?15:14
Riddelldidn't this just get covered?15:14
Riddellit's waiting on upstream approving http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft15:14
cjwatsonindeed, it was just listed separately on the agenda15:14
cjwatsonok, continuing15:14
cjwatson[TOPIC] Units policy15:14
MootBotNew Topic:  Units policy15:14
cjwatson[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy15:15
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy15:15
cjwatsonwhat remains here?15:15
mdzwaiting to hear back from bdale I guess15:15
cjwatsondo we now consider the policy final from an Ubuntu pov?15:17
keesanything we can move forward on while waiting to see what Debian thinks?15:17
cjwatsonif we consider it final, we can start clearing things up in Ubuntu?15:18
mdzcjwatson: I'm happy with it15:18
mdzkees: I think the notion was that we should take it to Debian first and give them the opportunity to take the lead, rather than going ahead and asking them to follow15:18
mdzparticularly if they want to tweak it15:18
sabdfldo we have a way to tag the patches we send to Debian as say ubuntu and units-policy ?15:18
cjwatsonsabdfl: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Debian/Usertagging15:19
cjwatsonusertags are free text and controlled by convention15:20
sabdflcan we get a quick poll on whether folks think it better to (a) start, submit tagged patches, or (b) wait for consensus on a final Debian-and-Ubuntu spec?15:21
sabdfli'd be +1 on starting15:21
cjwatsonI think I prefer waiting for at least feedback if not necessarily consensus15:21
persiaTo avoid a need for logs of documentation bugs, it may be easier to start by submitting patches, but not committing them to Ubuntu.15:22
mdzI'm for (b).  this is fundamentally cosmetic; the benefit may not offset the cost of carrying another stack of patches15:22
cjwatsonconsensus is sometimes a big ask, but since we've asked for feedback it would be courteous to wait for it I think15:22
cjwatsonseems to be a light preference for waiting, let's check back next time to see how the discussion with the TC is going15:23
cjwatson[TOPIC] When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (Matt Zimmerman)15:24
MootBotNew Topic:  When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (Matt Zimmerman)15:24
mdzwe started this discussion at a previous meeting15:24
mdzbut I think we cut it short due to lack of time15:24
cjwatsonthis was a bit stalled last time15:24
cjwatson15:50 <mdz> let's try to wrap this up15:24
cjwatson15:50 <mdz> should we take some action or no?15:24
cjwatson15:50 <mdz> options:15:24
cjwatson15:50 <mdz> - open a dialogue with the Debian TC15:24
cjwatson15:51 <mdz> - somebody go off and give it a good long think and come up with a proposal15:24
cjwatson15:51 <mdz> - start a discussion thread on a mailing list15:24
cjwatson15:51 <bdale> any discussion with the Debian TC will proceed better if it starts with a straw-man proposal15:25
cjwatson15:51 <bdale> as the TC is not in the habit of initiating policy from whole cloth15:25
cjwatson15:52 <mdz> ok, I'm not hearing any strong views so I'll just leave it alone for the moment, we can revisit at the next meeting if we have time15:25
mdzI'd like for someone to second the idea before I go any further with it15:25
mdzif no one else feels there is a problem worth solving, I think I'll drop it15:25
cjwatsonI think that it is worth having a more specific and consistent approach to this, although I am not yet convinced that there is a single policy applicable to all packages.  However, I feel it is in the "somebody needs to give it a good long think" category and I don't think we're getting very far by considering it at the TB level at present?15:26
keesfrom the earlier discussion it sounded mostly like a case-by-case situation.  general guidelines would be good, though.15:27
cjwatsonWe don't really seem to have well-thought-out alternatives to decide between, for example15:27
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
cjwatsonpitti did say last time round that he'd had to spend time on phone support due to fallout from this kind of problem15:27
mdzagreed, let's shelve it for the moment15:27
sabdflthis is all way off my radar screen, so don't wait for me to chip in15:27
mdzif I get more time/motivation to work up some options, I'll put it to the mailing list15:28
cjwatsonExecute Permission Policy (KeesCook)15:28
cjwatson[TOPIC] Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)15:28
MootBotNew Topic:  Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)15:28
cjwatson[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required15:28
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required15:28
keesso, it's ready... I'd like to know what's missing.15:28
keeswe seemed close to agreeing on it before.15:28
cjwatson15:44 <kees>     * The current policy will not handle all potential cases, such as OO.o macros or application cases which wer are unaware of15:29
keessounded like the policy was ok, but the implementation needed some love.15:29
cjwatson15:44 <kees>     * Colin: we should point out an alternative approach instead of just saying "No"15:29
pittihi; sorry, my X is terminally broken, currently trying to get a sensible system again15:29
cjwatson15:44 <kees>     * current impact: kill GNOME desktop "do you want to run it anyway?" question, remove a few MIME handlers15:29
cjwatson15:45 <kees> so, it needs something for the alternative approach.  wording for macros was handled.15:29
cjwatsonI get the feeling we had a bit of axiom conflict here15:29
keescjwatson: ah, was missing macro wording?  that's just an exception.15:29
cjwatson"wording for macros was handled".  I overpasted15:30
mdzkees: is the "extended attributes" bit new? I didn't notice that before15:30
mdzand it seems complex15:30
cjwatsonerr except that this does not appear to be reflected in the current wiki page?15:30
keesmdz: that's been there since the beginning.  it's a "should"15:30
keescjwatson: agreed. not sure where it went. one sec15:30
mdzkees: does anything we currently ship comply with that?15:30
sabdflwhat's the upgrade story with this?15:31
cjwatsonmy impression from last time round was that kees felt that we should *not* point out an alternative approach15:31
cjwatsonshout if I'm wrong15:31
sabdfli.e. how do people's existing handler sets interact with this?15:31
keesmdz: nothing currently implements it, but it was an idea (from Keybuk?) that we could operate in the same way OSX does.15:32
mdzkees: I think it's a useful idea, but that we should separate "idea" from "policy"15:32
keesso, I figured I would mention it in the hopes of encouraging such things15:32
keesmdz: that's why I had it as "should".  what would be better?15:33
cjwatsonkees: it may be that "give the option of looking for trusted software instead" is sufficient as an alternative approach15:33
mdzkees: anyone who set out to implement it would end up inventing a system for it, and I don't think we want that15:33
keescjwatson: yes, that's my opinion.15:33
mdzif there were some existent facility they could use, I would be fine encouraging use of that15:33
keesmdz: should I leave it out, or move it elsewhere?15:33
cjwatsonpeople are going to google anyway if they can't do what they want, and we can't prevent that; all we can do is maximally encourage safe behaviour15:33
keescjwatson: agreed15:33
cjwatsonpitti: ^- do you know the answer to sabdfl's handler upgrade question above15:33
mdzkees: I'd like to either take it out, or move it into a separate section (future)15:34
keesmdz: moved.15:34
mdzotherwise I'm happy with it as it stands15:34
keessabdfl: you mean the mime handlers?15:35
sabdflkees: yes15:35
pitticjwatson, sabdfl: for custom installed .desktop files (mimetype handlers) it should just continue to work, but I don't think that this will actually be the case; usually people just have the system MIME handlers, which will be changed on upgrade15:36
keessabdfl: this would break non-installed software for certain invocations of java, wine, and .desktop files15:36
pitti(I might have misunderstood the question, though)15:36
sabdfli'm asking if we've thought through the experience folks will have, who have accumulated cruft over time15:36
keesi.e. software people are double-clicking out of their Desktop/ folder15:36
cjwatsonmm.  I must say I don't see the point of breaking stuff people have already installed.  If it's unsafe, they've already taken the hit15:36
cjwatson(I realise this is just an emergent consequence rather than intentional breakage)15:37
mdzcjwatson: I agree, though I don't see a way around it15:37
keesbut how can we distinguish?  the handler is the handler.15:37
mdzother than making everything in their home dir executable, of course ;-)15:37
cjwatsonif the error message follows the "should" and links to explanatory text (esp. if it's local rather than on the web?) then it is perhaps less of an issue15:38
cjwatsonalthough translation argh15:38
cjwatsonupdate-manager could warn about non-executable .desktop files in users' Desktop/ folders15:39
cjwatsonit gets complicated with multi-user system15:39
keesthe explanatory text was moved out of the dialog and into a page based on feedback from last time.15:39
cjwatsonI'd like to move forward on this somehow.  I think much of this is likely to be an improvement and that we should proceed earlier rather than later if we're looking at doing this for Lucid.  Perhaps we could go ahead and present this to the desktop team for detailed feedback, including requesting advice on awkward issues such as this?15:40
keeswe seem stuck once again.  I'd really like to move this forward.  I recognize it has some sub-optimal issues associated with it, but I think it's the "least bad".15:40
cjwatsonpitti: ^- how do you feel about that, with your desktop team techlead hat on?15:41
keescan the tb ratify the policy as-is, since it does not define the "explanatory text" ?15:41
keesI can re-weaken the "link to" to be "dialog should provide or link to explanatory text" ?15:41
* pitti reads scrollback; sorry, really not easy to follow sprint and meeting15:42
cjwatsonhow about we vote to ratify it conditional on feedback from desktop team members?15:43
cjwatsonas in, ratify the spirit and let the desktop team tweak the letter15:43
keesthat's fine by me.15:43
cjwatson[VOTE] ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required conditional on detailed feedback from desktop team15:44
MootBotPlease vote on:  ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required conditional on detailed feedback from desktop team.15:44
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot15:44
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting15:44
kees+0 from me, as this was brought to the TB by me before I was on the TB.15:44
MootBot+1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 115:44
MootBotAbstention received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 115:44
pittiI agree that the upgrade issue is nasty, and I'm trying to think about a workaround (such as checking a timestamp or something)15:44
sabdflkees: when will we be able to kick the tires on this? i'd like to know how much room there will be for iteration if the first cut isn't very usable15:44
pittibut since that problem won't ever solve itself, we need to do the cut at some point anyway15:44
sabdfli find it hard to judge that usability from the spec15:45
keessabdfl: I imagine a few weeks.  mostly I just have to remove mimehandlers.15:45
sabdfli'm +1 to getting going based on this draft, if I know we will have time to iterate it before lucid, or able to pull it entirely from lucid15:45
sabdflwill you put some additional thought into the upgrade experience? 70% of lucid users will be upgrades15:45
keessure, though the number of those users that run custom .desktop files is likely to be very small.15:46
cjwatsonI'm cautious about usability being a trump card entirely in one direction here, as the usability of a compromised system is also pretty weak, and we know that this kind of thing is a good attack vector15:46
keespitti: timestamp seems like it could work for .desktop, but may result in some confusing results.  :)15:46
pittiI'm +1 one on that, too; IMHO a consistent behaviour is better than some timestamp based stuff which will never reliably work anyway; and after all, a dist-upgrade does install a new OS version, which allows some incompatibilities IMHO15:47
cjwatsonI wish we had numbers on people using custom .desktop files, but we don'tt15:47
keesthough I don't like the idea of having a system's clock set wrong leaving you vulnerable.15:47
keeslooks like mootbot missed sabdfl and pitti's votes.15:48
pittiis it really about .desktop files? I thought they'd need to be +x for ages already15:48
MootBot+1 received from pitti. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 215:48
keespitti: the +x for desktop files is pretty recent, but not lucid-recent.  this is mostly about removing the "run anyway?" portion of that dialog.15:48
pittiso we would only remove the "start anyway" button, not add something entirely new15:49
pittikees: right15:49
pittitherefore it won't come as a total surprise anyway15:49
keesthat's my thinking, yes.15:49
keesand remove the java and wine handlers.15:49
MootBotFinal result is 2 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 215:49
pittiI thought this was at least since hardy or intrepid15:49
cjwatsonnoting the conditional +1 from sabdfl15:49
keesok, thanks!15:50
cjwatsonkees: please go ahead and bring this up formally with the desktop team, noting the need for time to iterate/pull15:50
keescjwatson: via ubuntu-devel?15:50
cjwatsonthat or ubuntu-desktop, whichever is appropriate15:50
cjwatson[TOPIC] Check up on community bugs (standing item)15:50
MootBotNew Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)15:50
pittikees: alternatively, desktop team meeting is in 40 mins15:50
cjwatsonjust the one about sabdfl's expiration date, which was addressed in action items15:51
cjwatson[TOPIC] AOB15:51
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB15:51
keespitti: I'll start with email.  no need to derail another IRC meeting.  ;)15:51
cjwatsonanything anyone wants to raise?  You have ~8 minutes.15:51
sabdflnothing from me, other than to wish everyone a great 201015:51
pittisabdfl: and to you!15:52
keesyeah, you too!  happy new year, tech board.  :)15:52
cjwatsonsometime this year I will probably get over typing 200^H1015:52
cjwatson[TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting15:52
MootBotNew Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting15:52
cjwatsonnot it15:52
* kees checks calendar15:53
cjwatsonkees was last, mdz before that15:53
cjwatsonhow about Keybuk as a penalty for not showing up?15:53
cjwatsondone. :)15:54
MootBotMeeting finished at 09:54.15:54
cjwatsonthanks all!15:54
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