[02:02] <cjohnston> o/
[02:02] <pleia2> hi folks, just waiting on a few people to get this learning team meeting rolling
[02:07] <pleia2> yay
[02:07] <cprofitt> sorry folks -- dirty diaper needed changing
[02:07] <pleia2> ok, let's get this started :)
[02:07] <pleia2> #startmeeting
[02:07] <MootBot> Meeting started at 20:07. The chair is pleia2.
[02:07] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[02:08] <pleia2> welcome everyone, who all is here for the ubuntu community learning project meeting?
[02:08] <cjohnston> o/
[02:08] <doctormo> hello
[02:08] <akgraner> 0/
[02:08] <pleia2> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
[02:08]  * cprofitt raises hand
[02:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/Agenda
[02:08] <pleia2> our agenda
[02:08] <_marx_> non member logging
[02:09] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Review of what we're currently working on
[02:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review of what we're currently working on
[02:09] <pleia2> ok, I sent an email to the list a few days ago outlining some of where we are at
[02:09] <pleia2> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2010-January/000102.html
[02:09] <pleia2> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2010-January/000102.html
[02:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-learning/2010-January/000102.html
[02:10] <cprofitt> 0/
[02:10] <pleia2> cprofitt: go ahead
[02:10] <cprofitt> You had asked me about the course layout in terms of Moodle
[02:10]  * pleia2 nods
[02:11] <pleia2> we'll review CourseLayout in a minute, I think it's the next agenda item
[02:11] <cprofitt> I think the layout will need to be modified
[02:11] <pleia2> ok
[02:11] <cprofitt> and I am working on that...
[02:11] <cprofitt> which fits agenda item one
[02:11] <cprofitt> I can go in to more detail next
[02:11] <pleia2> ok, cool
[02:11] <pleia2> so, any comments on our current projects? anyone want to jump in anywhere or let us know about stuff they're working on that the rest of us should know about?
[02:11] <doctormo> I'm working on a video that shows people how to get involved from a fresh ubuntu install up to having the branch checked out.
[02:12] <pleia2> cool
[02:12] <doctormo> should include text instructions too
[02:12]  * pleia2 nods
[02:12] <cprofitt> I am working on the layout for Moodle, the Ubuntu Educators site -- which I hope to use to draw some educators to our project - and a Moodle course on Installation
[02:13] <duanedesign> i added what will hopefully be a lot more Launchpad related courses to my wiki for peer review.
[02:13] <pleia2> excellent!
[02:13] <pleia2> duanedesign: link?
[02:14] <cprofitt> I also made an account for duanedesign so he could transcribe his course to Moodle and offered to assist him
[02:14] <pleia2> great
[02:14] <duanedesign> i need to update what i have done to reflect the guidlines at /Learning/CourseLayout
[02:14] <pleia2> sound like we're making good progress on several fronts then
[02:15] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Review Course Layout
[02:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review Course Layout
[02:15] <pleia2> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout
[02:15] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout
[02:15] <pleia2> ok, just to quickly explain this
[02:16] <pleia2> doctormo has been hosting Ubuntu classes in the MA LoCo for quite some time, this is the course structure he found to be best for that, and wrote his courses following this layout
[02:16] <cprofitt> 0/
[02:16] <pleia2> so the focus certainly is real life classroom teaching
[02:16] <pleia2> and can also be applied to IRC-based teaching
[02:17] <doctormo> Hopefully as a stage 2, we can figure out how to use what we know to make student driven online courses...
[02:20] <pleia2> this might not be the same for moodle, so you have the floor, cprofitt :)
[02:20] <duanedesign> pleia2: http://okiebuntu.homelinux.com/okwiki
[02:20] <pleia2> duanedesign: thanks
[02:20] <cprofitt> I am not sure how much people are familiar with 'course styles'
[02:20] <cprofitt> for in-person events it would be sychronous...
[02:20] <cprofitt> on-line courses can be sychronous
[02:20] <cprofitt> or asychronous (meaning there is not a 'teacher' present or a 'live' class
[02:20] <cprofitt> for the on-line synchronous courses -- IRC would be used even with Moodle courses
[02:20] <cprofitt> this model will work...
[02:20] <cprofitt> for Asychronous courses - instructor led or self-study
[02:20] <cprofitt> the demonstration will take a different form
[02:20] <cprofitt> so that is all that has to be altered
[02:20] <pleia2> cprofitt: yeah, that's what I figured
[02:20] <cprofitt> doctormo: I have already done that for the Professional Learning Board
[02:20] <cprofitt> so it is fairly easy...
[02:20] <cprofitt> but it will be best... as most creating courses for us will likely lack experience in asychronous course design, to give some solid examples
[02:20]  * pleia2 nods
[02:20] <cprofitt> my own process took several review sessions with the educational professional that was my mentor at The Professional Learning Board
[02:20] <cprofitt> I still would like to get a curriculum expert for K-12 or College to assist us if possible
[02:21] <pleia2> that would be nice
[02:21] <cprofitt> as I do not feel I have enough experience
[02:21] <cprofitt> one other component that we may want to consider
[02:21] <cprofitt> for all course styles is pre-assessment
[02:22] <cprofitt> which would be a quiz about the course material taken prior to the course
[02:22] <cprofitt> this would assist people who may or may not know the material...
[02:22] <pleia2> ah, interesting
[02:22] <cprofitt> and assist instructors in knowing what the 'strong' or 'weak' areas are for each student or the group as a whole
[02:23] <cprofitt> it allows us to 'tailor' the course to better fit the student
[02:23] <doctormo> Very interesting
[02:23] <Vantrax> very good idea
[02:23] <cprofitt> Its fairly common in education... so I take no credit for the idea...
[02:23] <cprofitt> I am merely a parrot in this case
[02:23] <cprofitt> :-)
[02:24] <pleia2> well it certainly helps to have someone on the team who has expertise in this
[02:24] <doctormo> cprofitt: Don't be so humble, we're all meme vectors in our own way.
[02:24] <cprofitt> ... osmosis expertise.
[02:24] <cprofitt> I just listen to teachers...
[02:24] <Vantrax> yeah, i was just thinking I was doing that in the training course I was running last week
[02:24] <cprofitt> :-)
[02:25] <pleia2> so, regarding the course layout, the verdict is that it will need to be altered for asyncronous moodle courses
[02:25] <_marx_> cprofitt: how transportable would this moodle be?
[02:26] <cprofitt> _marx_: Moodle is very transportable...
[02:26] <cprofitt> if you are going to use it on another Moodle installation
[02:26] <cprofitt> or export it
[02:26] <_marx_> so I could take it to my local library on *my server and run it?
[02:27] <cprofitt> if you installed Moodle yes
[02:27] <cprofitt> the only possible gotcha is if we added a module...
[02:27] <pleia2> ok, I want to stay focused here
[02:27] <cprofitt> then the target Moodle server would need the module installed as well
[02:27] <_marx_> good, thx
[02:27] <pleia2> we can follow up after the meeting with moodle technical questions :)
[02:27] <Vantrax> modules we should probably avoid unless they are A) Common or B) Critical
[02:28] <pleia2> Vantrax: +1
[02:28]  * doctormo hugs pleia2, trying to keep things on topic
[02:28] <dinda1> what is the current topic?
[02:28] <pleia2> cprofitt: do you see any problems with the course layout as it is? will it be very hard to modify for moodle?
[02:28] <pleia2> dinda1: discussing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/CourseLayout
[02:29] <cprofitt> pleia2: I do not -- but converting an actual course from A to B may reveal things I did not anticipate
[02:29] <pleia2> ok, great :)
[02:29] <pleia2> I know it will be imperfect, but I'm hoping most of the material will be ok
[02:29] <pleia2> I am going to postpone the next agenda item until the end of the meeting
[02:29] <pleia2> [TOPIC] GroundControl familiarity
[02:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  GroundControl familiarity
[02:30] <pleia2> doctormo: you're up
[02:30] <cprofitt> 0/
[02:30] <doctormo> As I said before I'll be doing a video and some text on ground control... a project that enables our contributors to get involved without ever touching a command line.
[02:30] <pleia2> cprofitt: feel free to just speak up, this is a small meeting so we can keep it a bit informal :)
[02:31] <pleia2> doctormo: is there a project page?
[02:31] <doctormo> Part of this will include giving a hands on session with ubuntu learning members, so I know were all good on what it does and how it works.
[02:31] <cprofitt> that is what I was going to ask pleia2
[02:31] <doctormo> https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol
[02:31] <pleia2> [LINK] https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol
[02:31] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/groundcontrol
[02:31]  * pleia2 thinks MootBot doesn't understand https
[02:32] <cprofitt> so this project makes interacting with launchpad easier?
[02:32] <pleia2> doctormo: is this the child of the project you were working on at UDS?
[02:32] <doctormo> cprofitt: You didn't see the demo at UDS so perhaps pleia2 can give a view on it.
[02:32] <cprofitt> or we can talk off-line
[02:32] <doctormo> pleia2: Yes, you saw the first half
[02:32] <pleia2> excellent
[02:32] <cprofitt> I was just looking for a quick summary, if possible, on how it fitst with UCLP
[02:33]  * Vantrax agrees with cp on the summary
[02:33] <doctormo> cprofitt: It configures bzr, launchpad and the two combined, it allows you to view projects from a button in nautilus and add them, and then add a branch from those folders.
[02:33] <cprofitt> and how does that fit with UCLP?
[02:34] <cprofitt> I think I see that... but want to make sure.
[02:34] <doctormo> cprofitt: It allows users to get course material for editing, save the material, push it back up and get a merge request.
[02:34] <cprofitt> K
[02:35] <cprofitt> does it have 'check-in' 'check-out' built in to it...
[02:35] <cprofitt> forgive me for not knowing if that is a LP function or not
[02:36] <pleia2> yep
[02:36] <doctormo> cprofitt: It's worded differently, It's "Get Code" (bzr branch) and "Save Code" (bzr commit) "Upload Code" (bzr push) and "Finished!" (merge request)
[02:36] <doctormo> You only ever see one button at a time
[02:36] <cprofitt> I got that bit on the first part doctormo but thanks for the clarification
[02:37] <cprofitt> sounds like a solid project...
[02:37] <doctormo> It should be useful outside of ULCP too
[02:37] <cprofitt> it should certainly help users that are not familiar with console-foo
[02:37] <pleia2> yeah, a lot of people were excited about it at UDS
[02:37] <pleia2> this looks great doctormo, thanks for the intro :)
[02:37] <pleia2> shall we move on?
[02:37] <doctormo> Aye
[02:38] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Plans for editing material
[02:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Plans for editing material
[02:38] <pleia2> ok doctormo, all yours again
[02:38] <doctormo> So the second phaise two
[02:39] <doctormo> We have our scripts which can create new classes, that can compile to html and pdf and do most of the heavy lifting.
[02:39] <doctormo> All that's required of current editors is that they be able to open up a text file and edit it.
[02:40]  * pleia2 nods
[02:40] <doctormo> But I want to make it easier... since it requires contributors to understand that the file is split up into 5 parts
[02:40] <doctormo> and still requires cli use for making new classes
[02:40] <cprofitt> 0/
[02:41] <doctormo> So this part will probably be a small quickly app which opens up and shows a list of sections and classes in a tree and then allows users to edit a class via gui.
[02:41] <pleia2> neat
[02:41] <pleia2> cprofitt: go ahead
[02:41] <cprofitt> if there are changes to the way courses are 'created' will this program require changes or is it flexible?
[02:42] <cprofitt> I am just concerned because we have yet to, at least to my knowledge, grant final approval on the course structure and methodology due to us not having transferred a course to Moodle
[02:42] <cprofitt> and I also want to make sure it is flexible in the case of other changes...
[02:43] <pleia2> all of this is taking time, it's my hope that we'll have some courses finished in *some* format (even if it's odt) to transfer to moodle before doctormo is done with coding
[02:43] <cprofitt> or in other words I hope to not have work lost... or creat a tool that may bind us to a particular structure
[02:43] <doctormo> cprofitt: It would be flexible in terms of number of sections, with only the title being a fixed entry.
[02:43] <pleia2> and doctormo has several courses already completed, we could look into putting one of them into moodle now
[02:43] <doctormo> pleia2: Yes this is certanly a phaise 2, I don't expect to hold people up with it.
[02:44] <cprofitt> pleia2: we should... it would help us to A) learn the process and B) solidify the process
[02:44] <pleia2> sounds good :)
[02:44] <doctormo> cprofitt: sounds like I should walk you through it, I've done that with pleia2 and nigel
[02:44] <pleia2> doctormo: this is great, thanks for putting so much work into making things easy for the contributor
[02:44] <cprofitt> I could offer to assit doctormo convert the courses like with duanedesign
[02:45] <cprofitt> doctormo: that would help me understand it... but I trust you...
[02:45] <cprofitt> I just want to make sure, for your point of view, that it is flexible
[02:45] <doctormo> cprofitt: I sometimes go too far with flexability :-)
[02:46] <doctormo> So I can confirm it'll be flexible enough for us to quickly add new sections as they become required.
[02:46] <cprofitt> I don't think flexibilty can go too far...
[02:46] <doctormo> cprofitt: Have you ever tried to hold water?
[02:46] <pleia2> well, when doctormo gets lost for 3 months doing customizations on flexibility we'll know that that point has been reached :)
[02:47] <pleia2> do we have anything else on this subject?
[02:47] <cprofitt> not I
[02:47] <doctormo> nope
[02:47] <pleia2> [TOPIC] Formalize tasklist to move forward
[02:47] <MootBot> New Topic:  Formalize tasklist to move forward
[02:47] <pleia2> ok, some action items!
[02:48] <doctormo> How does next monday evening sound for a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side?
[02:48] <cprofitt> doctormo: lets discuss after this topic
[02:49] <pleia2> cprofitt: want each of us pick one of doctormo's completed sysadmin courses and start putting it into moodle?
[02:49] <doctormo> cprofitt: I mean to say, that this should be added to the task list.
[02:49] <doctormo> pleia2: That actually sounds like an awesome idea
[02:49] <pleia2> I won't be around next monday, but I'm pretty familiar with the process and there are logs :)
[02:49] <cprofitt> pleia2: that would be a good idea...
[02:50] <pleia2> [ACTION] cprofitt and pleia2 to each select one of doctormo's sysadmin courses and put into moodle
[02:50] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cprofitt and pleia2 to each select one of doctormo's sysadmin courses and put into moodle
[02:50] <cprofitt> I am booked next week on Thursday... and my wife talked to me about a date -- but I have forgotten which it is
[02:51] <pleia2> [ACTION] Schedule evening for cprofitt and doctormo to a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side
[02:51] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Schedule evening for cprofitt and doctormo to a run through of course creation on the lp/bzr side
[02:51] <pleia2> [ACTION] review duanedesign's launchpad courses
[02:51] <MootBot> ACTION received:  review duanedesign's launchpad courses
[02:52] <cprofitt> duanedesign: is also migrating one of those to Moodle
[02:52] <cprofitt> and will work with me as he has questions
[02:52] <pleia2> [ACTION] duanedesign migrating a launchpad course to Moodle
[02:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  duanedesign migrating a launchpad course to Moodle
[02:53] <pleia2> anything else?
[02:53] <cprofitt> Not that I have.
[02:53] <pleia2> cprofitt has ongoing moodle stuff, doctormo has ongoing dev work, so I won't bother with those
[02:53] <cprofitt> have any of you take a look at the Ubuntu educators Ning?
[02:53] <doctormo> No
[02:53] <pleia2> yeah, but I don't understand ning :)
[02:53] <cprofitt> http://ubuntuedu.ning.com/
[02:53] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuedu.ning.com/
[02:53] <doctormo> Oh wait, now I remember, social site
[02:54] <cprofitt> it is just a social site...
[02:54] <cprofitt> I have advertised it on several of the educational sites I am a member on
[02:54] <pleia2> kind of like a forum?
[02:54] <cprofitt> think portal...
[02:54]  * pleia2 nods
[02:54] <cprofitt> a collection of parts
[02:54] <doctormo> Wow that looks beautiful
[02:54] <cprofitt> one of which is a forum
[02:55] <cprofitt> I hope to use the site as a 'more familiar' site for teachers interested in or already using Ubuntu in the classroom
[02:55] <pleia2> ok, now I think I understand
[02:55] <cprofitt> and those who support them
[02:55] <doctormo> pleia2: you saw my ubuntu artists group on dA... it sort of like that but for educators.
[02:55] <pleia2> gotcha
[02:56] <cprofitt> it ties in with our project, but also serves its own person
[02:56] <cprofitt> once we get the courses published -- Moodle or PDF then I want to link to them
[02:56] <pleia2> cool
[02:56] <cprofitt> so the courses get used... and we get some feedback from Educators
[02:56] <pleia2> yeah, that's great
[02:56] <cprofitt> I also, really hope, that some of these folks contribute
[02:56] <cprofitt> but we will see
[02:56]  * pleia2 nods
[02:57] <pleia2> ok, let's wrap this up
[02:57] <pleia2> any parting thoughts?
[02:57] <pleia2> I want to say that this has been an awesome meeting, one of our best! we're making progress on a number of fronts, and it's exciting :) so thanks everyone
[02:57]  * cprofitt shakes his head no
[02:58] <cprofitt> Yes, thanks everyone.
[02:58] <cprofitt> fantastic work and good progress
[02:58] <cprofitt> special thanks to Pleia who is doing an excellent job of pointing us all towards the goalline
[02:59] <doctormo> I think so!
[03:00] <pleia2> #endmeeting
[03:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:00.
[03:00] <cprofitt> right on time :-)
[03:04] <akgraner> pleia2, I am working on the Leadership Series stuff this week once I get through with Chapter 3 do I just let you know?
[03:05] <pleia2> akgraner: that sounds good
[03:06] <cprofitt> nigel_nb: you need course creator rights?
[09:31] <KatieKitty> :)
[10:01]  * persia peers about
[10:05]  * TheMuso is here.
[10:06] <DrGS> DrG is here
[10:06] <persia> DrGS: Are you "DrG", or is that just a very similar nick?
[10:06] <persia> Ah :)
[10:06] <persia> amachu seems away, but both our candidates are here.
[10:06] <DrGS> I am DrG the nick was not available
[10:06] <KatieKitty> hi
[10:07] <freeflyi1g> persia: hi
[10:07] <KatieKitty> :)
[10:07] <persia> lifeless: elky ?
[10:08] <lifeless> hi
[10:08] <lifeless> am here, a tad distracted by coughing
[10:08] <DrGS> :)
[10:08]  * persia provides lifeless with virtual lemon honey tea
[10:09] <persia> Well, we're nominally quorate at this point.  Shall we start at 10:10, to give a couple more minutes for elky or amachu to join us?
[10:10]  * TheMuso is happy to wait.
[10:10]  * KatieKitty says no probs
[10:10]  * popey volunteers if they're not around
[10:10] <DrGS> sure
[10:11] <farimi> hi all
[10:11] <KatieKitty> hi
[10:11] <KatieKitty> :)
[10:12] <farimi> so, what is the agenda
[10:12] <farimi> :P
[10:13] <TheMuso> Agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
[10:13] <persia> Who's the chair?
[10:13] <lifeless> you
[10:13] <persia> heh.
[10:14] <persia> OK.  First up is DrG.
[10:14] <persia> DrGS: Could you post a few lines to introduce yourself?
[10:14] <DrGS> :-[
[10:15] <DrGS> I am a Doctor ; Currently doing research in genetic recombination technology
[10:15] <DrGS> from RGBC
[10:16] <DrGS> Also GP in some private Hospitals .
[10:16] <farimi> so, what am I doing here again/
[10:17] <coolbhavi> DrGS, am also from India .. what does GP mean?
[10:17] <popey> General Practitioner
[10:17] <DrGS> Yes
[10:17] <coolbhavi> popey, thanks
[10:18] <persia> DrGS: From looking at your wiki page, it appears that most of your contributions to date have been in brainstorm.  Is that correct?
[10:18] <DrGS> Yes
[10:19] <persia> Have you had success in getting any of your ideas implemented in Ubuntu yet?
[10:20] <DrGS> Frugal boot time - not implemented , but very much possible .
[10:21] <DrGS> The developer checks brainstorm about once in 6 months
[10:22] <persia> Have you significantly shaped brainstorm in some way?
[10:23] <DrGS> You can read my Ideas and decide
[10:25] <persia> I meant in a way beyond the ideas.  Like working with how brainstorm works, or how ideas in brainstorm are used to affect other areas in Ubuntu.
[10:26] <DrGS> Contacted brainstorm owner (nand ) and thinking about modifying the sites . I have the codes .
[10:26] <DrGS> You can see most of my Ideas are independent .
[10:27] <persia> Anyone else have questions?
[10:28] <TheMuso> Not I.
[10:28] <TheMuso> Only to ask whether there is anyone here to advocate DrGS.
[10:30] <elky> sorry, here now
[10:30] <persia> Hrm.  It doesn't appear that anyone is here to support DrGS.
[10:30] <persia> So, voting.
[10:31] <bundo> oh suapapa Hi
[10:31] <bundo> Hello , persia    I'm ubuntu-ko owner. South Korea
[10:31] <persia> hi bundo
[10:31] <bundo> 만나서 반갑습니다.  sharkout 에게 이야기 들었습니다.
[10:31] <bundo> Nice to meet you. I heard a story sharkout.
[10:32] <persia> I'm -1.  I think there's some good thought and work going on, but I don't feel that the work is yet "significant", in that it does not appear to have yet affected either the Ubuntu code or brainstorm (the primary area of activity).
[10:32] <TheMuso> I agree with persia, -1 also.
[10:32] <lifeless> DrGS: I think the ideas you have in brainstorm are good. However we don't currently really recognise brainstorm activity - both gardening and idea generation - as a significant contribution.
[10:32] <suapapa> hello :)
[10:33] <lifeless> DrGS: Its clear you have done some significant research on some of your ideas - and one at least (the frugal boot) you seem to have implemented and tested the idea : but not got it actually into Ubuntu.
[10:33] <lifeless> DrGS: So, like persia and TheMuso I don't think you meet the criteria we look for yet.
[10:34] <DrGS> OK
[10:34] <elky> DrGS, am i reading launchpad right? you only signed up 6 weeks ago? or did you have another ID?
[10:34] <lifeless> DrGS: we're looking for actual /change/ occuring - some examples of which might be:
[10:34] <elky> if you had another ID with more stuff, then that could be helpful here
[10:34] <lifeless>  - users helped (and thus the change is that they learnt)
[10:35] <DrGS> I don't have another ID
[10:35] <lifeless>  - ideas that are popular in brainstorm implemented so they are in the next ubuntu release
[10:35] <elky> ok, then i second what lifeless is saying. sorry :( -1
[10:35] <lifeless>  - forum activity helping folk out
[10:35] <lifeless>  - translations for your language
[10:36] <DrGS> no
[10:36] <coolbhavi> DrGS, we at ubuntu-in have dire shortage at ubuntu-in of dedicated translators/workrs
[10:36] <lifeless> there are many many more things - and I encourage you to keep contributing
[10:36] <coolbhavi> maybe you can help out
[10:36] <KatieKitty> :)
[10:36] <lifeless> you're simple at the tip of the iceberg today!
[10:37] <coolbhavi> and then elevate with testimonial of a ubuntu member
[10:38] <DrGS> OK
[10:38] <persia> DrGS: So, thanks for your work so far, we're looking forward to more, and we'll see you back in a few months :)  Feel free to ask any of us (or members in ubuntu-in) if you have questions about whether it's time to come back yet.
[10:38] <persia> Next up: KatieKitty.  KatieKitty could you paste a few lines to introduce yourself?
[10:38] <KatieKitty> ok thx
[10:39] <elky> coolbhavi, thanks for the tip. we appreciate folks participating in the membership process by mentoring like this
[10:39] <DrGS> OK :)
[10:39] <KatieKitty> i am 27 From KL, Malaysia
[10:39] <lifeless> DrGS: I do love the care and attention you've put into your brainstorm ideas: getting some of them /done/ would be really nice to see.
[10:39] <coolbhavi> elky, that was a simple one .. No mention :)
[10:39] <DrGS> That is upto the Developers
[10:39] <KatieKitty> currently working as freelance in computing stuff
[10:40] <KatieKitty> like network, maintenance etc
[10:40] <lifeless> DrGS: no, its up to all of us: the developers are not specially blessed :)
[10:40] <KatieKitty> team leader of ubuntu-my translation & documentation team
[10:40] <DrGS> But they are the one  who implement Ideas
[10:40] <coolbhavi> DrGS, +1 lifeless
[10:41] <coolbhavi> DrGS, power user == developer in linux in general mate
[10:41] <elky> coolbhavi, can we request that you talk with DrGS privately about his options? :)
[10:41] <KatieKitty> shall I continue in my self introduction?
[10:41] <KatieKitty> :)
[10:41] <coolbhavi> elky, sure
[10:42] <DrGS> sure
[10:42] <leoquant> please do KatieKitty
[10:42] <KatieKitty> ok
[10:42] <KatieKitty> i am 27 From KL, Malaysia
[10:42] <KatieKitty> currently working as freelance in computing stuff
[10:42] <KatieKitty> like network, maintenance etc
[10:43] <KatieKitty> team leader of ubuntu-my translation & documentation team
[10:43] <KatieKitty> been full time use ubuntu since feisty
[10:43]  * KatieKitty is a ubuntu & debian lover
[10:45] <freeflyi1g> KatieKitty: you're the team leader of ubuntu-my translation, but your karma relate to translation is only 163
[10:45] <KatieKitty> yeah
[10:45] <KatieKitty> coz we are all very inactive....
[10:45] <KatieKitty> due to work
[10:46] <KatieKitty> and most of us is already too comfortable in using english
[10:46] <KatieKitty> lol
[10:46] <lifeless> are you doing anything to get more translators?
[10:47] <KatieKitty> me and other members is trying to promote the trans & doc team in a lot of foss event
[10:47] <KatieKitty> but too bad, it is hard to get more ppl to be interested in trans & doc work...
[10:47] <lifeless> is https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ms  the my translation team ?
[10:48] <KatieKitty> nop
[10:48] <KatieKitty> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-my-transdocs
[10:48] <lifeless> I was just looking around, and it and https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-my-transdocs confuse me a little
[10:48] <KatieKitty> we register a few launchpad pages
[10:48] <KatieKitty> lol
[10:48] <KatieKitty> some if official, some is not
[10:48] <KatieKitty> but we use all of them
[10:48] <elky> :-/
[10:49] <KatieKitty> translation work is started since long time ago
[10:49] <freeflying> KatieKitty: are you collaborating with ubuntu-l10n-ms
[10:50] <KatieKitty> yeah
[10:50] <lifeless> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/+languages/ms is your language though ?
[10:50] <KatieKitty> we are actually the same group of ppl
[10:50] <KatieKitty> lol
[10:50] <KatieKitty> lifeless: yup
[10:50] <freeflying> KatieKitty: then why shall you have so many teams on lp?
[10:51] <lifeless> so, for me, its disconcerting to see the ubuntu translation team - which is the l10n-ms one - not be the one that you refer to when you say you're the team lead
[10:51] <KatieKitty> trans & doc is officially builded after meeting in #ubuntu-my
[10:51] <lifeless> the team you talk about doesn't have translation review privileges for ubuntu ms translations
[10:51] <KatieKitty> and i was voted to become the team leader of that
[10:52] <freeflying> KatieKitty: do you anyone here to support you then?
[10:52] <elky> who is the leader of ubuntu-l10n-ms?
[10:52] <KatieKitty> actually it can be verified by asking ejat a.k.a fenris
[10:52] <farimi> yes
[10:52] <KatieKitty> but he seems like din make it online in time
[10:52] <lifeless> elky: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-ms/+members#proposed - there are a few admins
[10:53] <lifeless> and ~mypapit owns the team
[10:53] <lifeless> anyhow, thats moot: if you have a new team and its all approved in the -my loco thats cool
[10:53] <KatieKitty> translation management work was transferred to me after a meeting...
[10:53] <lifeless> It is odd that you haven't gotten the sysadmins to add it as a translation team for Malay
[10:53] <farimi> actualy they are the same people... mostly
[10:54] <lifeless> farimi: yeah thats fine.
[10:54] <elky> i'm 0 based purely on confusion.
[10:54] <KatieKitty> we are actually the same group of ppl in #ubuntu-my
[10:54] <lifeless> what its saying to me is that an important thing - the ability to review translations, which these folk should be able to do - hasn't been actioned in 3 months
[10:54] <KatieKitty> anyone is free, then do the work
[10:54] <KatieKitty> lol
[10:55]  * persia hunts up some translation folk
[10:55] <lifeless> and actioning it just takes a single 'question' on answers.launchpad.net
[10:55] <KatieKitty> :)
[10:55] <persia> KatieKitty: How are your translations typically distributed to end-users?
[10:55] <KatieKitty> actually currently, ubuntu-my is more focus on getting more supporter for ubuntu as well as active in foss activities
[10:56] <lifeless> lets move on though: you are team lead there, but busy with work so not doing much yourself, but trying to increase the team size
[10:56] <KatieKitty> persia: honestly, i still have no idea yet, usually everything i will have to ask fenris 1st
[10:56] <lifeless> persia: the l10n-ms team has 9 unapproved proposed members.
[10:56] <persia> lifeless: Yeah.
[10:56] <lifeless> persia: I think its a bit under-maintained - and katiekitty isn't an admin in that team.
[10:57] <KatieKitty> actually i think that ubuntu-my should have another official meeting in irx
[10:57] <KatieKitty> but too bad, everyone is bz...
[10:57] <KatieKitty> and hard to find a time that everyone is online at the same time
[10:58] <persia> I think I'm with elky: 0 due to confusion.
[10:58] <lifeless> is there anyone online to champion you - e.g. as reference for your user support in #ubunu-my
[10:58] <lifeless> ?
[10:58] <KatieKitty> wait
[10:58] <TheMuso> persia, elky, agreed. 0
[10:58] <KatieKitty> i try to call fenris to online
[10:58] <freeflying> 0 from me
[10:58] <KatieKitty> see if he reach home already or not
[10:59] <farimi> so,katiekitty is building traslation team?
[11:01] <lifeless> KatieKitty: so I see a lot of projects you have, but they are mostly things built /on/ linux. Your direct contributions seem to be partly translation [and idle at the moment due to work] and
[11:01] <lifeless> user support in the -my irc channel.
[11:01] <lifeless> KatieKitty: is that right ?
[11:01] <KatieKitty> talking to fenris on the phone
[11:01] <KatieKitty> brb
[11:01] <lifeless> s/linux/Ubuntu/ above
[11:01] <KatieKitty> he s trying to online now...
[11:01] <KatieKitty> :)
[11:02] <KatieKitty> sorry for the delay
[11:02] <KatieKitty> fenris is trying to online from a cafe to verify my status
[11:02] <KatieKitty> hehehe
[11:03] <KatieKitty> lifeless: actually those projects in my wiki profile is done with only a few person
[11:03] <KatieKitty> those are actually just a remastered version of ubuntu only....
[11:03] <lifeless> what is the #ubuntu-my channel ?
[11:04] <lifeless> is it captured on irclogs.ubuntu.com?
[11:04] <KatieKitty> #ubuntu-my channel is the official channel for ubuntu-my loco
[11:04] <elky> !logs
[11:04] <KatieKitty> i think so
[11:04] <elky> it'll be under the latter
[11:04] <KatieKitty> there is 2 bot there
[11:04] <ejat> lifeless: yes .. its log
[11:04] <ejat> hi elky
[11:04] <ejat> hi all
[11:04] <KatieKitty> hi ejat
[11:04] <lifeless> thanks elky
[11:05] <KatieKitty> thank god u online now
[11:05] <KatieKitty> hahahah
[11:05] <lifeless> heh no timestamps
[11:05] <elky> ejat, hi. we're all totally confused as to what the malay translation teams are
[11:05] <KatieKitty> ejat: sorry for call u last minutes
[11:05] <ejat> KatieKitty: i hv to use my phone ...
[11:05] <ejat> elky: ?
[11:05] <ejat> malay translation team ?
[11:05] <elky> the my translation team
[11:05] <elky> sorry
[11:05] <ejat> owh its about translate to malay
[11:06] <ejat> any application .. ubuntu documentation
[11:06] <KatieKitty> ejat: they need ur verification about https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-my-transdocs
[11:06] <KatieKitty> lol
[11:06] <ejat> KatieKitty: leading the team .. under ubuntu-my locoteam
[11:07] <persia> ejat: Can you explain the difference between ubuntu-my-transdocs and ubuntu-l10n-ms ?
[11:07] <lifeless> ejat: also its not set up as a translation team in rosetta though, which is odd.
[11:08] <lifeless> ok, so having had a brief look on the irc logs, I'm also 0 at this point.
[11:09] <persia> Any other questions for KatieKitty ?
[11:09] <persia> Err, nevermind.
[11:09] <persia> I read the logs wrong.  We've all voted.
[11:10] <persia> KatieKitty: I'd recommend you try to sort out the confusion regarding the translation team, and get it active again.  When done, come back :)
[11:10] <lifeless> KatieKitty: We're really looking for something a bit more tangible. The projects on your wiki page are ones that are /around/ Ubuntu not part of Ubuntu itself. The translation team you're leading isn't fully setup in rosetta - one of the responsibilities for the team leader!
[11:11] <lifeless> I can see you're active a bit most days in #ubuntu-my, and thats great, but its not enough on its own.
[11:11] <KatieKitty> :)....
[11:11] <ejat> lifeless: i agreed with u ..
[11:12] <lifeless> ejat: thank you for popping online
[11:12] <Belutz> Sorry for being late
[11:12] <ejat> nvm .. my broadband hv prob .. now online with my phone ..
[11:12] <ejat> hi Belutz
[11:12] <Belutz> ejat: hi
[11:12] <ejat> KatieKitty: leading more toward the documentation , tutorial n malaysia ..
[11:13] <ejat> on the wiki.ubuntu.com.my
[11:13] <KatieKitty> :)
[11:13] <farimi> yes true
[11:14] <ejat> for application translation .. we still under ubuntu-l10n-ms
[11:14] <ejat> team in rosetta ..
[11:14] <ejat> example .. our malay translation for firefox n a few other gnome application ..
[11:15] <KatieKitty> .....
[11:15] <lifeless> KatieKitty: something you should do - this is a strong recommendation - talk to the rosetta (launchpad translations) developers about your teams
[11:15] <lifeless> get those two teams setup properly in a way they are happy with.
[11:15] <KatieKitty> lifeless: ok....
[11:16] <lifeless> if the l10n team admins are gone you can be made an admin, or whatever. But as it is it is very unclear.
[11:16] <KatieKitty> will do that soon
[11:16] <ejat> lifeless: but a part of the translation team
[11:16] <elky> KatieKitty, if you could fix all this and make it sensible, then that'd be something that would make me impressed enough to change my vote. that'd be *real* leadership :)
[11:16] <ejat> KatieKitty: contribute a lot in ubuntu-my activities
[11:17] <persia> OK.  I think we've all given appropriate advice now. :)
[11:17] <persia> KatieKitty: Please feel free to ask any of us privately if you feel you need more.
[11:17] <KatieKitty> persia: thank you....
[11:17] <persia> Anyone have anything else they need to bring before the board today?
[11:17] <KatieKitty> persia: will do.....
[11:17] <lifeless> I'll be away next meeting
[11:18] <ejat> KatieKitty: u still have a chance if u follow their advice :)
[11:18] <lifeless> eu timezone. I may be online but can't be sure.
[11:18] <Belutz> persia, yes, I will be more active again from now on :)
[11:18] <KatieKitty> ejat: yeah, i'll try my best.....
[11:18] <persia> Belutz: It will be good to have you back.
[11:18] <ejat> yeah .. Belutz away for quite sometime
[11:18] <persia> lifeless: We should be OK, as long as Belutz makes it.
[11:18] <Belutz> persia, thanks, moving to a startup company is killing me
[11:18] <persia> Next meeting is the 26th.
[11:19]  * persia updates the wiki pages.
[11:19] <TheMuso> I should be able to make next meeting
[11:19] <elky> Belutz, startups should carry health warnings.
[11:19] <TheMuso> I know I haven't been visible as much as I should have been.
[11:19] <Belutz> elky, yup
[11:19] <KatieKitty> persia: i have a question, do contribution to activities such as in ubuntu events can be used for consideration for applying for membership at here?
[11:20] <persia> KatieKitty: If the event is used to promote or improve Ubuntu, yes, but you'll want to be someone involved in making the event happen, rather than just someone attending.
[11:20] <elky> KatieKitty, if documented, yes. also teams like marketing (they can use UWN translated), ubuntu-women, etc.
[11:20] <KatieKitty> thx
[11:22] <Belutz> I hope everybody in asia oceania board are healthy and a late happy new year :D
[11:22] <KatieKitty> elky: actually i am a male....
[11:22] <KatieKitty> lol
[11:22] <ejat> Belutz: hopefully ..
[11:22] <KatieKitty> so i am not in ubuntu-women......
[11:23] <elky> KatieKitty, oh sorry for the confusion there :(
[11:23] <KatieKitty> hahahaha
[11:23]  * KatieKitty is virtually female, physically male
[11:23] <elky> although, gender doesn't matter so long as you believe in and are willing to stand by the ideals
[11:24] <KatieKitty> :)
[11:24] <ejat> +1 elky :)
[11:24] <elky> KatieKitty, you wouldn't be alone.
[11:24] <KatieKitty> elky: thats y i joined fosschix-my, lol
[11:24] <elky> :)
[11:25] <ejat> elky: hows ya new year ?
[11:25] <KatieKitty> coz i believe in females can do a lot in opensource
[11:25] <ejat> elky: i will persue the chix in MY .. to join
[11:25] <elky> ejat, it is ok. yours?
[11:25] <ejat> elky: yeah .. hope can meet u again this year :)
[11:25] <elky> i think this meeting is closed now, so we should move social talk to elsewhere
[11:25] <ejat> elky: yeah ..
[11:44] <wet>  oops ..
[12:59] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[12:59] <MootBot> Meeting started at 06:59. The chair is NCommander.
[12:59] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:00]  * asac waves
[13:00]  * JamieBennett waves back
[13:00]  * ogra moos
[13:00] <asac> persia: ogra: dyfet: davidm_: plars: StevenK: ping
[13:00] <asac> GrueMaster: ping
[13:00] <plars> present
[13:00] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112
[13:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112
[13:00] <GrueMaster> pong
[13:00] <dyfet> pong
[13:00] <NCommander> [link] http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:00] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:01] <davidm_> present
[13:01] <asac> NCommander: no topic?
[13:01] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[13:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[13:01] <JamieBennett> also cooloney ping
[13:01] <asac> yeah
[13:01] <JamieBennett> oh
[13:01] <asac> ericm not here
[13:01] <NCommander> [topic] NCommander to invite relevant kernel people to the next meeting.
[13:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to invite relevant kernel people to the next meeting.
[13:02] <asac> i made them aware ... guess the reminder mail didnt go to them though, right?
[13:02] <NCommander> asac, yeah. I had talked to both of them though
[13:02] <NCommander> hey ericm_
[13:02] <ericm_> hey NCommander
[13:02] <ogra> NCommander, they should be on the list for the reminder mail
[13:02] <asac> ok, do we need an action or will this happen now?
[13:02] <ogra> NCommander, or be invited to the gcal event
[13:02] <asac> persia: NCommander:?
[13:03] <asac> ok, lets carry it over to see if it happens next time :)
[13:03] <NCommander> [action] NCommander to add mobile kernel devs to gcal event
[13:03] <MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to add mobile kernel devs to gcal event
[13:03] <persia> They should be subscribed to the mailing list, or manage their calendars well :)
[13:03] <NCommander> [topic] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere
[13:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere
[13:04] <persia> We had the meeting.  I'm not yet done with a wiki page.  Can we defer this until later in the meeting?
[13:04] <asac> yes
[13:04] <NCommander> [action] asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
[13:04] <MootBot> ACTION received:  asac, ogra, persia to make sure .32 backporting for imx51 kernels is documented somewhere (c/o)
[13:04] <asac> we should carry that forward. the wiki isnt done yet
[13:04] <ogra> right
[13:04] <NCommander> [topic] ogra, asac, NCommander to blog on planet about ARM work
[13:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra, asac, NCommander to blog on planet about ARM work
[13:05]  * StevenK waves
[13:05] <persia> Don't carry it forward yet: come back during this meeting :)
[13:05] <ogra> nothing intresting to blog about yet
[13:05] <JamieBennett> ogra: uboot work?
[13:05] <ogra> i'll blog about the babbage switch to uboot once thats working
[13:05] <asac> no success story there yet
[13:05]  * cooloney waves
[13:05] <ogra> and about rootstock changes once i have any :)
[13:06] <NCommander> [topic] Work item review
[13:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Work item review
[13:06] <ogra> i dont think we need an action item for it though
[13:06] <NCommander> As a reminder, all work items due for A2 are due, and mus tbe marked complete, or postponed
[13:06] <NCommander> asac, JamieBennett, how goes the MIRs for 2d launcher?
[13:07] <JamieBennett> Seems we have some resolution
[13:07] <asac> we committed to take care of the main concern
[13:07] <JamieBennett> 2 MIR's still need reviewing though
[13:07]  * ogra moves uboot to A3
[13:07] <asac> so the MIR for embryo is probably unblocked
[13:07] <ogra> ... with a tear in my eye
[13:07] <JamieBennett> Just need pitti to approve it now
[13:07]  * NCommander gives ogra a tissue
[13:07] <NCommander> [topic] asac to report on Chromiums licensing issue progress
[13:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  asac to report on Chromiums licensing issue progress
[13:08] <JamieBennett> all other non-blocking issues have bugs filed in debian
[13:08] <asac> i plan to go through the blueprints for alpha-3 with each of you now
[13:08] <ogra> *sniff*
[13:08] <asac> thats done. its in my AR ...
[13:08] <asac> quite good progress, just a few rough edges left
[13:08] <NCommander> [topic] Current Items
[13:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Current Items
[13:08] <NCommander> The burndown chart for A2 is looking good
[13:08] <NCommander> http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/lucid-alpha2/report.html
[13:09] <dmart> Stupid question: how do I mark an action as complete?
[13:09] <asac> yeah, so on friday we were still at trendline, since then not much happened, as expected
[13:09] <asac> dmart: flip from TODO to DONE
[13:09] <asac> in the blueprint
[13:09] <ogra> dmart, you write [DONE] behind it in the whiteboard
[13:09] <asac> if you finished items, please set them to DONE.
[13:09] <ogra> on the blueprint page
[13:09] <dmart> OK
[13:09] <asac> i will go through the blueprints later this week for the alpha-3 planning
[13:09] <dmart> Cool
[13:09] <asac> and do the cleanup
[13:10] <persia> And report it in an action report on the meeting page :)
[13:10] <persia> (if it's a significant thing)
[13:10] <dmart> Of course, will do
[13:10] <JamieBennett> Need to get alpha-2 targeted blueprints re-targeted if they are not at 100% awell
[13:10] <asac> dmart: yes, feel free to add your own entry to that wiki :)
[13:10] <asac> we would love to have more contributors presenting their work there
[13:10]  * JamieBennett agrees
[13:10] <NCommander> +1
[13:10] <ogra> ++
[13:11] <asac> so ... one more word on the action items
[13:11] <asac> i think there are still action items that dont need upload to archive
[13:11] <asac> those can still be finished this week
[13:11] <ogra> dont forget we're working on the alpha
[13:12] <asac> not everyone
[13:12]  * persia is ready for kernel backport discussion when the agenda has a slot
[13:12] <NCommander> Is there anything to discuss on Ubuntu Liquid?
[13:12] <ogra> wed and thu are usually stressful days during alpha periods
[13:12] <asac> NCommander: what is the problem with the alternate images?
[13:12] <rbelem> yep
[13:12] <asac> its at 71%
[13:12] <NCommander> asac, I haven't managed to actually install one
[13:12] <NCommander> asac, a lot of churn in the archive causes the resulting image to be uninstallable, as in a package fails to install or the like.
[13:13] <StevenK> I think arm-une should be retargetted to A3, we don't have the launcher in main yet
[13:13] <asac> rbelem: ian_brasil_: you are also invited to add your stuff to the wiki
[13:13] <rbelem> cool
[13:13] <ian_brasil_> asac, ok we will
[13:13] <NCommander> asac, now that we're in freeze, I should have better success, and will be retesting today
[13:13] <JamieBennett> StevenK It is at alpha-3 now
[13:13] <GrueMaster> I tried the dove alternate image last Friday and had a package install failure.  Not sure what package.
[13:13] <asac> NCommander: thanks. let me know. i would love to not drag everything to alpha-3 ... we already have enough to do there
[13:14] <NCommander> GrueMaster, today's should be better as we've entered main freeze
[13:14] <NCommander> ian_brasil_, rbelem anything to report on Ubuntu Liquid?
[13:14] <rbelem> NCommander, yep
[13:14] <ogra> GrueMaster, save installer logs !
[13:15] <ogra> they usually say which package
[13:15] <GrueMaster> right
[13:15] <rbelem> NCommander, we packaged the plasma-mobile
[13:15] <asac> ogra: can you keep the uboot still on a2 please
[13:15] <asac> the problem is the work item tracker is a mess
[13:15] <ogra> asac, hrm, ok
[13:15]  * ogra rolls back
[13:15] <asac> e.g. you cannot move just what is left to a3
[13:15] <rbelem> NCommander, outside the kdebase
[13:15] <ogra> asac, moved back
[13:15] <asac> ogra: we can do that on release day
[13:15] <asac> thanks
[13:16] <rbelem> NCommander, started to work on the seeds
[13:16] <rbelem> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuLiquid/Seed
[13:16] <asac> maybe we should have a real topic for liquid?
[13:16] <asac> standing item?
[13:16] <NCommander> rbelem, excellent. I look forward to further progress on l
[13:16]  * NCommander has no objection
[13:17] <rbelem> rbelem, we will now on customize kdm and kwin for mobile
[13:17] <NCommander> I'll add it for the next meeting
[13:17] <Riddell> rbelem: what's all this?
[13:17] <rbelem> NCommander, ^
[13:17] <asac> [action] asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting
[13:17] <asac> hmm cant take actions :)
[13:17] <NCommander> [action] asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting
[13:17] <MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to add liquid to standing items for next meeting
[13:17] <NCommander> asac, only the chair has the power to do so
[13:17] <persia> Um, why asac?
[13:17] <NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
[13:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
[13:17] <StevenK> Exactly
[13:17] <persia> NCommander: Wait.  Not yet.
[13:18] <asac> persia: to give them a slot where we can discuss roadblocks etc.
[13:18]  * persia wants to talk about kernel backporting for FSL
[13:18] <asac> and see progress ;)
[13:18] <rbelem> Riddell, we will work on plasma mobile to be the shell for ubuntu liquid
[13:18] <asac> persia: we can discuss that in kernel status standing item ;)
[13:18] <persia> OK.
[13:19] <rbelem> Riddell, i will help arthur with the code and etc
[13:19] <asac> persia: do you have concerns with having a slot for liquid?
[13:19] <persia> asac: No.  I just don't understand why the action is assigned to you, rather than the chair :)
[13:19] <asac> heh. ok
[13:19] <persia> Doesn't matter.  Let's go on.
[13:20] <Riddell> rbelem: that's the sort of thing the Kubuntu team would be interested in hearing about
[13:20] <asac> because i added a bunch of them this time already
[13:20] <rbelem> Riddell, yep :-)
[13:20] <rbelem> Riddell, we really want your help
[13:20] <NCommander> Any objection if I continue?
[13:20] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
[13:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
[13:21] <asac> i would think Riddell and rbelem can do that offline
[13:21] <asac> yes.
[13:21] <JamieBennett> NCommander did you miss - dmart: Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?
[13:21] <JamieBennett> Or did I ?
[13:21] <rbelem> ok
[13:21] <NCommander> oh, *grumble*
[13:21] <asac> one word on the standing items:
[13:21] <NCommander> [topic] Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?
[13:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss how to process the ARMv7/Thumb-2 compatibility review list ?
[13:21] <JamieBennett> dmart
[13:21] <dmart> Did everyone see the link to the wiki?
[13:21] <cooloney> yeah, guys, i think i updated the status for fsl-imx51 on the wiki
[13:21] <asac> ok waiting
[13:21] <dmart> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
[13:21] <asac> dmart: yes, thank you very much.
[13:21] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
[13:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2PackageReviewList
[13:22] <asac> dmart: i wondered if you had the the grep lines of concerns there ...
[13:22] <asac> would probably be helpful in order to spot the code to look at when verifying if a package needs a fix etc.
[13:22] <dmart> The detail is in the page attachments
[13:22] <asac> thats the full blob, yes.
[13:22] <asac> we can use that
[13:23] <NCommander> I think the easiest way we could go forward with the review is a divide and conquer approach, and we simply assign packages to people.
[13:23] <asac> a more compressed form would have been easier, but its fine i guess
[13:23] <dmart> The filtered output has names like search-arm-swp.filt.gz
[13:23] <dmart> This is far as it's easy to go automatically
[13:23] <asac> ok
[13:23] <asac> we could have had a per-package filter
[13:24] <dmart> What about prioritisation?  Main comes before universe, but beyone that, I'm not sure.
[13:24] <asac> [action] asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.
[13:24] <NCommander> [action] asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.
[13:24] <MootBot> ACTION received:  asac to discuss with dmart how to best tackle the list and assign packages to team members etc.
[13:24] <ogra> dmart, on-cd more important than off-cd
[13:24] <asac> dmart: i think we could check the conut or rdepends and go for those with more first
[13:24] <ogra> s/cd/image/
[13:24] <persia> I think we'd want to prioritise stuff that ends up in images beyond stuff that doesn'T.
[13:24] <asac> but lets discuss that after meeting
[13:25] <persia> Or in build-depends/depends ordering.
[13:25] <dmart> OK, we can discuss that offline
[13:25] <NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
[13:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, ericm)
[13:25] <asac> so one word on the new standing items
[13:26] <asac> i added a few and added nicks next to them ... to reflect who i think would be good at doing this
[13:26] <asac> if you disagree let me know ... if you think it makes no sense, let me know either
[13:26] <asac> also ... i added it this, week, so if you dont have anything this time its fine
[13:26] <cooloney> right, asac i added fsl-imx51 already
[13:26]  * ericm_ has just finished updated the kernel status on wiki
[13:26] <persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport talks about the results of the backporting discussion
[13:26] <asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport
[13:26] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100112/FSLKernelBackport
[13:27] <cooloney>  2.6.31 Freescale BSP patches based kernel source was uploaded on Jan 11. Kernel packages cross compiled was tested on ogra and cooloney hardware. Freescale updated final BSP is just released. I will try to review the new kernel patches and try to apply them for testing.
[13:27] <asac> that sounds good
[13:27] <ogra> dist upgrade on my babbage board is still running, i should be able to test the in-archive soon kernel after the meeting
[13:27] <ericm_> Marvell's patchset based on v2.6.32.2 has been rebased again on top of lucid, config files sorted out, and building is OK. There are several issues though (not specifically related to this patchset) including: unexpected segfaults and X desktop freezing, still investigating the root cause with Marvell, and this is holding the patches from being uploaded atm.
[13:28] <ogra> * the in-archive kernel soon
[13:28] <asac> ericm_: do we have bugs for those issues?
[13:28] <ericm_> asac, yes
[13:28] <asac> would be great to have those in that status info
[13:28] <asac> ;)
[13:28] <ericm_> asac, ok
[13:28] <ogra> please make sure to have ubuntu-armel subscribed to such bugs
[13:29] <asac> right
[13:29] <ogra> that way the team gets them automatically
[13:29] <asac> so cooloney and ericm_ and everyone: ensure that you subscribe ubuntu-armel and add the armel tag
[13:29] <asac> ;)
[13:29] <asac> even if the package is armel only
[13:29] <ericm_> bug 504880 and bug 505772
[13:29] <asac> its easier for us to pull a list of all issues
[13:29] <asac> also ensure that bad bugs are milestoned and targetted for lucid (aka on release team radar)
[13:29] <asac> ericm_: thanks
[13:30] <asac> so..
[13:30] <asac> atm dove doesnt work at all?
[13:30] <asac> or is that just random frequen crashes?
[13:30] <NCommander> asac, it works, but its extremely unhappy.
[13:30] <ericm_> asac, I'll say - doesn't work at all
[13:30] <ericm_> not able to install even
[13:30] <asac> ok targetted both bugs for lucid
[13:30] <ericm_> interestingly, this doesn't happen on karmic or even lucid-alpha-1
[13:31] <asac> hmm.
[13:31] <asac> so its a regression in kernel?
[13:31] <ericm_> and this happen as well with karmic kernel, so there are some new issues indeed we never found
[13:31] <asac> do we have .32 on dove already?
[13:31] <ericm_> I'd say - it's not a regression
[13:31] <ogra> doesnt sound like kernel at all
[13:31] <ericm_> asac, I've already rebased .32 on dove
[13:32] <ogra> uploaded ?
[13:32] <ogra> i.e. is it in any image atm ?
[13:32] <ericm_> ogra, not yet - apw said it's not suitable
[13:32] <NCommander> ericm_, there are known issues with thumb2 mode with the karmic kernel according to Marvell; we fixed the thumb2 quirk which helped with the stability, but still didn't solve it
[13:32] <asac> thats good.
[13:32] <ericm_> I guess we need to root cause those issues before an upload is made
[13:32] <asac> i mean: that its not suitable -> its not uploaded :-
[13:32] <ogra> ericm_, right, so the issues we see wrt X etc are unlikely to come from the kernel
[13:32] <asac> P
[13:33] <ericm_> ogra, I can run in console quite happily
[13:33] <ogra> right
[13:33] <NCommander> ericm_, try compiling stuff at the console
[13:33] <ericm_> ogra, it indeed looks to be something related to X
[13:33] <ogra> but X fails even with the karmic kernel
[13:33] <NCommander> ericm_, once theboard gets unde rload, you run into segfaults
[13:33] <ericm_> NCommander, ok - will do
[13:33] <asac> ogra: we had kernel fixes for instructions before
[13:33] <ericm_> ogra, exactly
[13:33] <asac> ericm_: what crashes are you getting? segfaults or sigill?
[13:33] <NCommander> also
[13:33] <NCommander> X works here
[13:33] <NCommander> asac, combination of both
[13:33] <ogra> asac, i know, but kernel wouldnt be the first ting i'd look
[13:34] <ericm_> asac, I guess as NCommander suggested - that single fix doesn't solve all the potential issue
[13:34] <ericm_> seems to me
[13:34] <asac> ogra: sure. we have the thumb list by dmart ;)
[13:34] <ogra> right :)
[13:34] <asac> or compiler
[13:34] <asac> version
[13:34] <NCommander> dmart, is there some sorta thumb test kit that runs through all the instructions that we could run on dove?
[13:34] <ogra> most likely compiler/binutils
[13:34] <ericm_> NCommander, would be good if you could test the .32 kernel your side
[13:34] <asac> i dont see any debug info on the X crashes to attached
[13:34] <NCommander> ericm_, I did
[13:34] <asac> can we file a bug against X for that for now?
[13:34] <dmart> NCommander: I don't know. I can enquire
[13:35] <NCommander> ericm_, no improvement
[13:35] <ericm_> asac, it just freezes - so no crash report
[13:35] <plars> it's more like a full system hang, not just X crashing
[13:35] <ogra> no ssh ?
[13:35] <NCommander> dmart, thanks. If such a beast exists, it might help us find the problem
[13:35] <asac> ericm_: maybe you can still log in or use console and get a dump?
[13:35] <NCommander> asac, when it hangs, the board counter stops, or it goes completely non-responsive
[13:36] <dmart> NCommander: I'll enquire at my end and see if something is available.
[13:36] <asac> plars: ^
[13:36] <NCommander> dmart, thanks :-).
[13:36] <ericm_> asac, no - the debug hex led even stops counting
[13:36] <GrueMaster> ogra: ssh isn't on the live image, and no it doesn't work even if added.
[13:36] <ogra> GrueMaster, thanks :)
[13:36] <ericm_> asac, so I'm trying to find some doc to see if that hex led is a software watchdog something
[13:37] <ericm_> NCommander, do you have the detailed docs like schematics and developer manuals?
[13:37] <NCommander> ericm_, the counter is driven by software
[13:37] <NCommander> ericm_, we do have them, I'll send you a message
[13:37] <ericm_> NCommander, cool
[13:38] <ericm_> NCommander, so it could the kernel just locks up - yet not able to see anything from the serial console
[13:38] <asac> do X apps work fine if you run them through ssh (e.g. without X server running)?
[13:38] <NCommander> asac, X for me works.
[13:38] <ericm_> asac, I'll try that on my side
[13:38] <NCommander> asac, but its just a matter of time before the board hangs
[13:39] <ericm_> one other thing I noticed is gnome-panel seems to respawn again and again
[13:39] <asac> right. try without X and see if that goes away
[13:39] <asac> then we hvae only xserver and kernel left most likely
[13:39] <GrueMaster> Yesterday's live image starts X, but hangs shortly after rendering the desktop and before the panel fully loads.
[13:39] <asac> ericm_: that indicates a crash. we should be able to get a backtrace on that then
[13:39] <ericm_> GrueMaster, is that on dove?
[13:39] <GrueMaster> yes
[13:39] <asac> btw, is apport enabled?
[13:39] <GrueMaster> Just booted it.
[13:39] <persia> As much as it's nice to go through individual issues, aren't we drifting from topic a bit?  I'd expect a lot of this could be covered in #ubuntu-arm (as it seems arm-specific)
[13:39] <ogra> define "yesterdays image" :)
[13:39] <ericm_> asac, ok - just have no idea where to find the log of those gtk/gdk messages
[13:40] <ogra> there were no builds since the 8th
[13:40] <ericm_> asac, I guess so - yet not able to see the apport icon on the taskbar
[13:40] <GrueMaster> 20100111 daily.
[13:40] <asac> persia: i agree somewhat, though without having a way forward its bad to stop the topic
[13:40] <GrueMaster> Ok.
[13:40] <asac> anyway
[13:40] <ogra> thats actually 20100108
[13:40] <plars> GrueMaster: alternate maybe? live images haven't been rebuilt
[13:40] <asac> lets move that offline after meeting
[13:40] <ericm_> asac, I mean - apport doesn't seem to find anything wrong from it's last run
[13:40] <NCommander> [action eric, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging
[13:40] <NCommander> [action] ericm, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging
[13:40] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ericm, NCommander, GrueMaster to work on dove kernel debugging
[13:40] <NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
[13:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster, plars)
[13:41] <plars> the bringup testing blueprint is, for all practical purposes, done, plan to start running through that and posting results asap
[13:41] <asac> (GrueMaster: plars: anything important? i dont expect you to have a formal report prepared for this week )
[13:41] <plars> but might be lagged slightly by systems being tied up with alpha testing this week
[13:41] <GrueMaster> Nothing new to report as of yet.  QA on dove is stalled due to hanging images.
[13:42] <asac> plars: great news. can we set that to implemented? ;)
[13:42] <plars> ...and lack of new images
[13:42] <plars> any ETA on that?
[13:42] <plars> asac: there is one WI set for a3, which we discussed
[13:42] <plars> just to gather more arm-specific info if possible
[13:42] <asac> right. but thats after implemented
[13:42] <asac> there are a few more stages ;)
[13:42] <asac> or waits deployment maybe
[13:42] <asac> anyway, i will go through specs anyway, so dont bother
[13:42] <plars> asac: sure then
[13:43] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
[13:43] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Application status (JamieBennett, dyfet)
[13:43] <JamieBennett> Umm, not looked at ARM specific's this week
[13:43] <asac> i think nothing to report on this this week
[13:43] <JamieBennett> asac: what were you expecting from this item?
[13:44] <asac> lets move on ... we can check that after the meeting
[13:44] <ogra> there is still a good bunch of stuff on the ftbfs list
[13:44] <JamieBennett> noting that you FTBFS and plars/Gruemaster to report bugs too?
[13:44] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
[13:44] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
[13:44] <NCommander> Bunch of FTBFS's fixed
[13:45] <NCommander> libtool && ocmal being the hilights here
[13:45] <NCommander> KDE's broken again
[13:45] <asac> yeah. good progress so far (but new stuff is tickling in)
[13:45] <asac> NCommander: did you go through the list of failures and gave back those that failed because of libtool?
[13:45] <ogra> gd2 and gphoto look bad
[13:45] <ogra> lv4l too
[13:45] <asac> ogra: one of those is libtool iirc
[13:45] <ogra> postgres ...
[13:46] <ogra> meh and plymouth
[13:46] <NCommander> asac, not all of them. just the obvious ones.
[13:46] <NCommander> asac, i didn't spend as much on the failure list as I would have liked. Friday was hetic
[13:46] <asac> ogra: postgres is fix committed
[13:46] <ogra> plymounth is seeded since yesterday
[13:46] <asac> pitti hasnt uploaded my fix yet
[13:46] <ogra> someone should look at it
[13:47] <asac> i can go through the ftbfs again and assign bugs
[13:47] <asac> in the long run i would hope that dyfet and NCommander would do that regularly
[13:47] <asac> but for now i am fine to do that
[13:47] <ogra> why, leave it to them :)
[13:47] <ogra> they are grown up guys :)
[13:48] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
[13:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, persia)
[13:49]  * NCommander thinks he should be on this one
[13:49] <ogra> clemetine has her monthlies ...
[13:49]  * persia was so excited by ogra's return from holiday that no image status was checked all week.  Next week something may be reported
[13:49] <ogra> but an image build is running as we speak
[13:49] <StevenK> Surely there has to be a better way to state that.
[13:49] <ogra> heh
[13:49] <ogra> StevenK, she was misbehaving and angry
[13:49] <asac> good. for now its top prio to get A2 images going
[13:49] <NCommander> StevenK, surely, but I do admit ogra has a way with words.
[13:50] <ogra> and died directly after rebooting
[13:50] <ogra> this time the machine stayed up ... and i fired off a build
[13:50] <ogra> with luck we'll have images in 2-3h
[13:50] <asac> ok i optimistically take this as A2 images are on track
[13:50] <ogra> up to the 8th at least imx51 looks good
[13:51] <NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
[13:51] <asac> ooo failed to build
[13:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[13:51] <ogra> freeze is in place so everything should be in sync atm
[13:51] <NCommander> asac, *wince*, not again.
[13:51] <asac> so we might need some slangasek help on that (i think he already did that)
[13:51] <ogra> oo.o failes on all but x86 amd64
[13:51] <asac> someone can take the action to fix our seeds so they dont block on armel?
[13:51] <ogra> asac, i'll care for it if it gets in our way
[13:51] <asac> good
[13:51] <asac> NCommander: ^^ action please
[13:52] <NCommander> [action] ogra to change seeds to route around OOo
[13:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to change seeds to route around OOo
[13:52] <ogra> [action] ogra to care for seed changes to get oo.o off the image
[13:52]  * NCommander was tempted to say braindamage instead ...
[13:52] <persia> NO need to change the seeds, just reupload the -meta.  germinate will automatically do the right thing per-arch.
[13:52] <NCommander> persia, it won't
[13:52] <ogra> persia, nope
[13:52] <NCommander> persia, the arch all packages cause issues.
[13:52]  * NCommander remembers when this happened in karmic
[13:52] <ogra> persia, tranbslations are a beast wrt oo.o
[13:52] <persia> Ah.  That's probably a bug :)
[13:52] <cooloney> ogra: one quick question, what version GCC we are using for build imx51?
[13:52]  * NCommander sighs
[13:53] <asac> current gcc 4.4
[13:53] <ogra> cooloney, the one in the archive :)
[13:53] <asac> i think its 4.4.2
[13:53] <NCommander> Why the hell do people upload massive packages hours before A2 freeze
[13:53] <cooloney> ogra: i just found fsl kernel patch revert the kernel compiling flag to 4.1.2
[13:53] <persia> NCommander: To avoid uploading them after the freeze?
[13:53] <ScottK> NCommander: Which?
[13:53] <StevenK> What ScottK said
[13:53] <asac> NCommander: ooo was explicitly requested by slangasek because the isos were oversized
[13:53] <NCommander> persia, ScottK, OOo
[13:53] <cooloney> asac: ogra thanks, will talk with freescale guys later
[13:53] <persia> NCommander: Also:
[13:53] <persia> !ohmy
[13:53] <ogra> cooloney, 4.1 isnt in ubuntu anymore i think
[13:53] <NCommander> asac, ok, fair enough
[13:54] <StevenK> gcc-4.1 does still exist in Lucid
[13:54] <NCommander> ogra, its still in universe
[13:54] <asac> is "why the hell" really offensive ;)
[13:54] <asac> ?
[13:54] <asac> hehe
[13:54] <StevenK>    gcc-4.1 | 4.1.2-27ubuntu1 | lucid/universe | source, amd64, i386
[13:54] <ogra> ah, universe
[13:54] <ogra> no option anyway :)
[13:54] <persia> asac: At least it hits the highlight filters.
[13:54] <ScottK> NCommander: The real problem was breaking mesa on Friday and leaving it broken for 72 hours
[13:55] <ScottK> asac: Depends on context, but it can be.
[13:55]  * StevenK is *still* grumbling about that
[13:55] <ogra> yeah, 3D sucks
[13:55] <persia> No, breaking stuff and disappearing for the weekend sucks
[13:55] <NCommander> ScottK, ow.
[13:55] <ogra> i thought we had a rule for that
[13:55] <asac> ScottK: whats the status on mesa? is that now fixed?
[13:56] <ScottK> It's fixed
[13:56] <cooloney> ogra: my cross compile gcc is 4.3.3
[13:56] <ScottK> But that's why KDE and OOo are behind
[13:56] <ScottK> KDE 4.3.90 was uploaded before it was broken even
[13:56] <asac> ok. i agree that friday night uploads are not sensible ... especially towards community that spend their weekend time and are blocked
[13:56] <ogra> cooloney, yeah, the kernel package needs to use whatever is the default in the archive though
[13:56] <ogra> cooloney, for testing codesourcery is usually fine
[13:58] <asac> ScottK: so is there anything that needs to get done for KDE wrt a2 and armel?
[13:58] <ogra> asac, a time machine ?
[13:58] <asac> haha
[13:58] <ScottK> asac: Nope.  It looks like everything is building.
[13:58] <asac> ok so it just needs to get build
[13:58] <NCommander> ogra, I'd disagree. The archive toolchain should be used in all cases because CodeSourcery may have patches that change or fix bugs that aren't in mainline.
[13:58] <asac> perfect
[13:58] <asac> seems all 7 builders for armel are active
[13:58] <ScottK> We don't have any A2 milestones around armel, so we'll try to stay out of your way
[13:58] <asac> and queue is empty
[13:58] <ogra> NCommander, for a quick test CodeSourcery is really ok
[13:59] <NCommander> ogra, fair enough.
[13:59] <cooloney> ogra: understand, i will let freescale guys know that
[13:59] <ScottK> asac: Once kdebase-workspace publishes the queue will fill again.
[13:59] <asac> cooloney: what is this about?
[13:59] <asac> (seems i missed something in scrollback)
[13:59] <asac> ScottK: yeah. ok. thanks
[14:00] <asac> ok. more AOB?
[14:00] <asac> otherwise we have a perfect 1h ;)
[14:00] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[14:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:00.
[14:00] <NCommander> wooh
[14:00] <asac> thanks all
[14:00] <ogra> asac, seems tehre is a patch in the FSL source that enforces gcc 4.1
[14:00] <cooloney> asac: i am applying the latest fsl bsp kernel patches which is just released
[14:00]  * NCommander drags himself back to bed for a bit
[14:00] <cooloney> asac: but found that a patch force us to use old gcc 4.1.2
[14:00] <ogra> but lets carry that over to #ubuntu-arm
[14:00] <asac> ouch. yes, thats not acceptable
[14:00] <asac> right
[14:00] <cooloney> asac: so i built failed with my 4.3.3 cross compiler
[14:01] <asac> cooloney: at best use 4.4 even ;)
[14:01] <cooloney> asac: yeah, i will email freescale about that, and let you and ogra in the email loop
[14:01] <asac> thanks!
[14:01] <ericm_> asac, do we have a 4.4 cross compiler ready on x86
[14:01] <ericm_> asac, so we save our trouble to upload
[14:01] <cooloney> asac: yeah, right, i am just browsing the codesourcery website for that
[14:01] <cooloney> ericm_: do you know that?
[14:01]  * persia points to parallel discussion in #ubuntu-arm
[14:02] <ericm_> cooloney, none I know
[14:02] <asac> lets move to -arm
[14:53] <kees> \o
[14:54] <cjwatson> hello
[14:54] <cjwatson> Keybuk not on IRC; I've pinged pitti and sabdfl
[14:54] <cjwatson> mdz: TB meeting in 6?
[14:55] <mdz> cjwatson: yep
[14:56] <kees> ScottK: are you around for tech board meeting ?
[14:57] <ScottK> kees: Just heading out the door for $WORK meetings.  I don't have anything useful to report on the KDE or MOTU stuff anyway.
[14:57] <kees> ScottK: okay, noted. thanks!
[14:59]  * cjwatson grabs a quick coffee
[15:01] <cjwatson> #startmeeting
[15:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is cjwatson.
[15:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:01] <cjwatson> still looking for pitti; cvd is looking for sabdfl; Keybuk is offline
[15:03] <cjwatson> phoning Keybuk
[15:03] <cjwatson> no reply
[15:04] <cjwatson> OK, we're barely quorate I suppose.  Let's proceed
[15:04] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[15:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[15:04] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
[15:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
[15:04] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000658.html
[15:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-December/000658.html
[15:04] <cjwatson> mdz to fix language wrt cmdline meaning in Unit policy
[15:04] <mdz> cjwatson: have looked all around for Mark; I think we should start without him
[15:04] <mdz> cjwatson: that action was obsoleted during the meeting when I noted it had already been fixed
[15:05] <cjwatson> it was in the minutes.  ack.
[15:05] <cjwatson> kees to present Units policy to Debian TC via bdale
[15:05] <kees> I emailed bdale today
[15:05] <cjwatson> ok, keep us informed
[15:05] <kees> indeed
[15:05] <cjwatson> cjwatson to document meanings of archive vs. ports, cdimage vs. releases, etc.
[15:06] <cjwatson> done today on UbuntuDevelopment/PackageArchive, although (as per mail) I could do with a statement of which releases lpia was officially supported for
[15:06] <cjwatson> but otherwise this action is done
[15:06] <cjwatson> cjwatson to add a bit more intro to UbuntuDevelopment/TeamDelegation, and link it from appropriate places
[15:06] <cjwatson> done
[15:06] <cjwatson> cjwatson to follow up with kubuntu-dev and mythbuntu-dev to get ubuntu-core-dev added
[15:07] <cjwatson> kubuntu-dev done; I asked superm1 about the mythbuntu-dev bit this morning but haven't got a response yet, so will carry that part over to make sure this gets done
[15:07] <cjwatson> ScottK to update [Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy] based on kubuntu upstream feedback
[15:07] <kees> IIUC, I don't think anything meaningful has come from upstream on that yet
[15:07] <cjwatson> ScottK said he wouldn't be here, but the wiki page has not been changed
[15:07] <cjwatson> will carry over
[15:07] <cjwatson> kees to follow up with ScottK on Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy updates
[15:07] <kees> done
[15:08] <cjwatson> oh, was that not dependent on the upstream feedback?
[15:08] <kees> right, it was to ping scottk
[15:08] <cjwatson> ok
[15:08] <cjwatson> kees to clean up further and re-present [execute permission policy] at next meeting
[15:08] <kees> also done
[15:08] <Riddell> the upstream status is that this needs approving http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft
[15:08] <kees> well, updated, haven't represented, obviously.  :)
[15:08] <Riddell> which I'll work on
[15:08] <cjwatson> Riddell: ah, thanks, perhaps that could be linked from the wiki?
[15:09] <cjwatson> sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate, and clarify his role
[15:09] <cjwatson> anyone know if this happened?
[15:09] <cjwatson> sabdfl to update bug with status and discussion
[15:09] <cjwatson> Mark updated the bug just after the last meeting
[15:10] <mdz> cjwatson: no, I don't think anything has happened on the CC front (from watching their meeting agenda)
[15:10] <cjwatson> thanks, I'll carry that over then
[15:10] <mdz> cjwatson: mark just arrived back at his desk
[15:10]  * cjwatson waits ...
[15:11] <sabdfl> hello all
[15:11] <kees> heya
[15:11] <cjwatson> hi Mark
[15:12] <cjwatson> just going through actions from the last meeting, one from you
[15:12] <cjwatson> sabdfl to propose to CC that the TB is a CC delegate, and clarify his role
[15:12] <sabdfl> not done - I was on holiday during the last CC meeting
[15:12] <cjwatson> ok, will carry over then
[15:12] <sabdfl> thanks
[15:13] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
[15:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
[15:13] <cjwatson> most of the activity here was represented in action items, otherwise I've been on holiday / buried in deathmarch project
[15:13] <cjwatson> anything to raise?
[15:14]  * cjwatson times out
[15:14] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
[15:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
[15:14] <cjwatson> I assume that this is blocked on ScottK's action item?
[15:14] <Riddell> didn't this just get covered?
[15:14] <Riddell> it's waiting on upstream approving http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/Minor_Point_Release_Policy/Draft
[15:14] <cjwatson> indeed, it was just listed separately on the agenda
[15:14] <cjwatson> ok, continuing
[15:14] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Units policy
[15:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Units policy
[15:15] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
[15:15] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
[15:15] <cjwatson> what remains here?
[15:15] <mdz> waiting to hear back from bdale I guess
[15:17] <cjwatson> do we now consider the policy final from an Ubuntu pov?
[15:17] <kees> anything we can move forward on while waiting to see what Debian thinks?
[15:18] <cjwatson> if we consider it final, we can start clearing things up in Ubuntu?
[15:18] <mdz> cjwatson: I'm happy with it
[15:18] <mdz> kees: I think the notion was that we should take it to Debian first and give them the opportunity to take the lead, rather than going ahead and asking them to follow
[15:18] <mdz> particularly if they want to tweak it
[15:18] <sabdfl> do we have a way to tag the patches we send to Debian as say ubuntu and units-policy ?
[15:18] <mdz> yes
[15:19] <cjwatson> sabdfl: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Debian/Usertagging
[15:20] <cjwatson> usertags are free text and controlled by convention
[15:21] <sabdfl> can we get a quick poll on whether folks think it better to (a) start, submit tagged patches, or (b) wait for consensus on a final Debian-and-Ubuntu spec?
[15:21] <sabdfl> i'd be +1 on starting
[15:21] <cjwatson> I think I prefer waiting for at least feedback if not necessarily consensus
[15:22] <persia> To avoid a need for logs of documentation bugs, it may be easier to start by submitting patches, but not committing them to Ubuntu.
[15:22] <mdz> I'm for (b).  this is fundamentally cosmetic; the benefit may not offset the cost of carrying another stack of patches
[15:22] <persia> s/logs/lots/
[15:22] <cjwatson> consensus is sometimes a big ask, but since we've asked for feedback it would be courteous to wait for it I think
[15:22] <mdz> agreed
[15:23] <cjwatson> seems to be a light preference for waiting, let's check back next time to see how the discussion with the TC is going
[15:24] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (Matt Zimmerman)
[15:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (Matt Zimmerman)
[15:24] <mdz> we started this discussion at a previous meeting
[15:24] <mdz> but I think we cut it short due to lack of time
[15:24] <cjwatson> this was a bit stalled last time
[15:24] <cjwatson> 15:50 <mdz> let's try to wrap this up
[15:24] <cjwatson> 15:50 <mdz> should we take some action or no?
[15:24] <cjwatson> 15:50 <mdz> options:
[15:24] <cjwatson> 15:50 <mdz> - open a dialogue with the Debian TC
[15:24] <cjwatson> 15:51 <mdz> - somebody go off and give it a good long think and come up with a proposal
[15:24] <cjwatson> 15:51 <mdz> - start a discussion thread on a mailing list
[15:25] <cjwatson> 15:51 <bdale> any discussion with the Debian TC will proceed better if it starts with a straw-man proposal
[15:25] <cjwatson> 15:51 <bdale> as the TC is not in the habit of initiating policy from whole cloth
[15:25] <cjwatson> 15:52 <mdz> ok, I'm not hearing any strong views so I'll just leave it alone for the moment, we can revisit at the next meeting if we have time
[15:25] <mdz> I'd like for someone to second the idea before I go any further with it
[15:25] <mdz> if no one else feels there is a problem worth solving, I think I'll drop it
[15:26] <cjwatson> I think that it is worth having a more specific and consistent approach to this, although I am not yet convinced that there is a single policy applicable to all packages.  However, I feel it is in the "somebody needs to give it a good long think" category and I don't think we're getting very far by considering it at the TB level at present?
[15:27] <mdz> OK
[15:27] <kees> from the earlier discussion it sounded mostly like a case-by-case situation.  general guidelines would be good, though.
[15:27] <cjwatson> We don't really seem to have well-thought-out alternatives to decide between, for example
[15:27] <cjwatson> pitti did say last time round that he'd had to spend time on phone support due to fallout from this kind of problem
[15:27] <mdz> agreed, let's shelve it for the moment
[15:27] <sabdfl> this is all way off my radar screen, so don't wait for me to chip in
[15:28] <mdz> if I get more time/motivation to work up some options, I'll put it to the mailing list
[15:28] <cjwatson> OK
[15:28] <cjwatson> #
[15:28] <cjwatson> Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
[15:28] <cjwatson> oops
[15:28] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
[15:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
[15:28] <cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required
[15:28] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required
[15:28] <kees> so, it's ready... I'd like to know what's missing.
[15:28] <kees> we seemed close to agreeing on it before.
[15:29] <cjwatson> 15:44 <kees>     * The current policy will not handle all potential cases, such as OO.o macros or application cases which wer are unaware of
[15:29] <kees> sounded like the policy was ok, but the implementation needed some love.
[15:29] <cjwatson> 15:44 <kees>     * Colin: we should point out an alternative approach instead of just saying "No"
[15:29] <pitti> hi; sorry, my X is terminally broken, currently trying to get a sensible system again
[15:29] <cjwatson> 15:44 <kees>     * current impact: kill GNOME desktop "do you want to run it anyway?" question, remove a few MIME handlers
[15:29] <cjwatson> 15:45 <kees> so, it needs something for the alternative approach.  wording for macros was handled.
[15:29] <cjwatson> I get the feeling we had a bit of axiom conflict here
[15:29] <kees> cjwatson: ah, was missing macro wording?  that's just an exception.
[15:30] <cjwatson> "wording for macros was handled".  I overpasted
[15:30] <mdz> kees: is the "extended attributes" bit new? I didn't notice that before
[15:30] <mdz> and it seems complex
[15:30] <cjwatson> err except that this does not appear to be reflected in the current wiki page?
[15:30] <kees> mdz: that's been there since the beginning.  it's a "should"
[15:30] <kees> cjwatson: agreed. not sure where it went. one sec
[15:30] <mdz> kees: does anything we currently ship comply with that?
[15:31] <sabdfl> what's the upgrade story with this?
[15:31] <cjwatson> my impression from last time round was that kees felt that we should *not* point out an alternative approach
[15:31] <cjwatson> shout if I'm wrong
[15:31] <sabdfl> i.e. how do people's existing handler sets interact with this?
[15:32] <kees> mdz: nothing currently implements it, but it was an idea (from Keybuk?) that we could operate in the same way OSX does.
[15:32] <mdz> kees: I think it's a useful idea, but that we should separate "idea" from "policy"
[15:32] <kees> so, I figured I would mention it in the hopes of encouraging such things
[15:33] <kees> mdz: that's why I had it as "should".  what would be better?
[15:33] <cjwatson> kees: it may be that "give the option of looking for trusted software instead" is sufficient as an alternative approach
[15:33] <mdz> kees: anyone who set out to implement it would end up inventing a system for it, and I don't think we want that
[15:33] <kees> cjwatson: yes, that's my opinion.
[15:33] <mdz> if there were some existent facility they could use, I would be fine encouraging use of that
[15:33] <kees> mdz: should I leave it out, or move it elsewhere?
[15:33] <cjwatson> people are going to google anyway if they can't do what they want, and we can't prevent that; all we can do is maximally encourage safe behaviour
[15:33] <kees> cjwatson: agreed
[15:33] <cjwatson> pitti: ^- do you know the answer to sabdfl's handler upgrade question above
[15:33] <cjwatson> ?
[15:34] <mdz> kees: I'd like to either take it out, or move it into a separate section (future)
[15:34] <kees> mdz: moved.
[15:34] <mdz> otherwise I'm happy with it as it stands
[15:35] <kees> sabdfl: you mean the mime handlers?
[15:35] <sabdfl> kees: yes
[15:36] <pitti> cjwatson, sabdfl: for custom installed .desktop files (mimetype handlers) it should just continue to work, but I don't think that this will actually be the case; usually people just have the system MIME handlers, which will be changed on upgrade
[15:36] <kees> sabdfl: this would break non-installed software for certain invocations of java, wine, and .desktop files
[15:36] <pitti> (I might have misunderstood the question, though)
[15:36] <sabdfl> i'm asking if we've thought through the experience folks will have, who have accumulated cruft over time
[15:36] <kees> i.e. software people are double-clicking out of their Desktop/ folder
[15:36] <cjwatson> mm.  I must say I don't see the point of breaking stuff people have already installed.  If it's unsafe, they've already taken the hit
[15:37] <cjwatson> (I realise this is just an emergent consequence rather than intentional breakage)
[15:37] <mdz> cjwatson: I agree, though I don't see a way around it
[15:37] <kees> but how can we distinguish?  the handler is the handler.
[15:37] <mdz> other than making everything in their home dir executable, of course ;-)
[15:38] <cjwatson> if the error message follows the "should" and links to explanatory text (esp. if it's local rather than on the web?) then it is perhaps less of an issue
[15:38] <cjwatson> although translation argh
[15:39] <cjwatson> update-manager could warn about non-executable .desktop files in users' Desktop/ folders
[15:39] <cjwatson> it gets complicated with multi-user system
[15:39] <cjwatson> s
[15:39] <kees> the explanatory text was moved out of the dialog and into a page based on feedback from last time.
[15:40] <cjwatson> I'd like to move forward on this somehow.  I think much of this is likely to be an improvement and that we should proceed earlier rather than later if we're looking at doing this for Lucid.  Perhaps we could go ahead and present this to the desktop team for detailed feedback, including requesting advice on awkward issues such as this?
[15:40] <kees> we seem stuck once again.  I'd really like to move this forward.  I recognize it has some sub-optimal issues associated with it, but I think it's the "least bad".
[15:41] <cjwatson> pitti: ^- how do you feel about that, with your desktop team techlead hat on?
[15:41] <kees> can the tb ratify the policy as-is, since it does not define the "explanatory text" ?
[15:41] <kees> I can re-weaken the "link to" to be "dialog should provide or link to explanatory text" ?
[15:42]  * pitti reads scrollback; sorry, really not easy to follow sprint and meeting
[15:43] <cjwatson> how about we vote to ratify it conditional on feedback from desktop team members?
[15:43] <cjwatson> as in, ratify the spirit and let the desktop team tweak the letter
[15:43] <kees> that's fine by me.
[15:44] <cjwatson> [VOTE] ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required conditional on detailed feedback from desktop team
[15:44] <MootBot> Please vote on:  ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required conditional on detailed feedback from desktop team.
[15:44] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[15:44] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[15:44] <cjwatson> +1
[15:44] <kees> +0 from me, as this was brought to the TB by me before I was on the TB.
[15:44] <MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:44] <MootBot> Abstention received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[15:44] <pitti> I agree that the upgrade issue is nasty, and I'm trying to think about a workaround (such as checking a timestamp or something)
[15:44] <sabdfl> kees: when will we be able to kick the tires on this? i'd like to know how much room there will be for iteration if the first cut isn't very usable
[15:44] <pitti> but since that problem won't ever solve itself, we need to do the cut at some point anyway
[15:45] <sabdfl> i find it hard to judge that usability from the spec
[15:45] <kees> sabdfl: I imagine a few weeks.  mostly I just have to remove mimehandlers.
[15:45] <sabdfl> i'm +1 to getting going based on this draft, if I know we will have time to iterate it before lucid, or able to pull it entirely from lucid
[15:45] <sabdfl> ok
[15:45] <sabdfl> will you put some additional thought into the upgrade experience? 70% of lucid users will be upgrades
[15:46] <kees> sure, though the number of those users that run custom .desktop files is likely to be very small.
[15:46] <cjwatson> I'm cautious about usability being a trump card entirely in one direction here, as the usability of a compromised system is also pretty weak, and we know that this kind of thing is a good attack vector
[15:46] <kees> pitti: timestamp seems like it could work for .desktop, but may result in some confusing results.  :)
[15:47] <pitti> I'm +1 one on that, too; IMHO a consistent behaviour is better than some timestamp based stuff which will never reliably work anyway; and after all, a dist-upgrade does install a new OS version, which allows some incompatibilities IMHO
[15:47] <cjwatson> I wish we had numbers on people using custom .desktop files, but we don'tt
[15:47] <kees> though I don't like the idea of having a system's clock set wrong leaving you vulnerable.
[15:48] <kees> looks like mootbot missed sabdfl and pitti's votes.
[15:48] <pitti> is it really about .desktop files? I thought they'd need to be +x for ages already
[15:48] <pitti> +1
[15:48] <MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[15:48] <kees> pitti: the +x for desktop files is pretty recent, but not lucid-recent.  this is mostly about removing the "run anyway?" portion of that dialog.
[15:49] <pitti> so we would only remove the "start anyway" button, not add something entirely new
[15:49] <pitti> kees: right
[15:49] <pitti> therefore it won't come as a total surprise anyway
[15:49] <kees> that's my thinking, yes.
[15:49] <kees> and remove the java and wine handlers.
[15:49] <cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
[15:49] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 2
[15:49] <pitti> I thought this was at least since hardy or intrepid
[15:49] <cjwatson> noting the conditional +1 from sabdfl
[15:50] <kees> ok, thanks!
[15:50] <cjwatson> kees: please go ahead and bring this up formally with the desktop team, noting the need for time to iterate/pull
[15:50] <kees> cjwatson: via ubuntu-devel?
[15:50] <cjwatson> that or ubuntu-desktop, whichever is appropriate
[15:50] <kees> ok
[15:50] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[15:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[15:50] <pitti> kees: alternatively, desktop team meeting is in 40 mins
[15:51] <cjwatson> just the one about sabdfl's expiration date, which was addressed in action items
[15:51] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
[15:51] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[15:51] <kees> pitti: I'll start with email.  no need to derail another IRC meeting.  ;)
[15:51] <cjwatson> anything anyone wants to raise?  You have ~8 minutes.
[15:51] <sabdfl> nothing from me, other than to wish everyone a great 2010
[15:52] <pitti> sabdfl: and to you!
[15:52] <kees> yeah, you too!  happy new year, tech board.  :)
[15:52] <cjwatson> sometime this year I will probably get over typing 200^H10
[15:52] <cjwatson> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
[15:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
[15:52] <cjwatson> not it
[15:53]  * kees checks calendar
[15:53] <cjwatson> kees was last, mdz before that
[15:53] <cjwatson> how about Keybuk as a penalty for not showing up?
[15:53] <kees> okidoky
[15:54] <cjwatson> done. :)
[15:54] <cjwatson> #endmeeting
[15:54] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:54.
[15:54] <cjwatson> thanks all!