[00:24] <sbalneav> back from dinner
[00:43] <sbalneav> stgraber: hmmm, I restarted the console by killing off the screen_session 07 process, and re-starting it
[00:44] <sbalneav> interesting.  This time it restarted.
[01:19] <sbalneav> stgraber: when you get a second, could you push xaos in my ppa?  I enabled pthreads
[01:19] <sbalneav> tested, seems to work
[03:36] <HedgeMage> Well I made it for bug day...barely.
[03:38] <sbalneav> hehe
[03:38] <sbalneav> I fixed about 4 or 5 bugs
[03:38] <HedgeMage> I'll spend a little time on the web site to-dos for sure
[03:39] <sbalneav> cool
[03:39] <HedgeMage> I'm not sure what, if anything, happened with it while I was busy moving.
[03:39] <sbalneav> Ah, are you moved now?
[03:39] <HedgeMage> We're settled in at the new place now (sort of -- still lots to unpack and put away).
[03:47] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, hi :) how was the moving to a new state
[03:47] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: hectic and crazy, but thankfully over.
[03:48] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, :) must have been a lot of work
[03:48] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: It always is.  I'm glad we're here now, with just the unpacking and such to worry about.
[03:48] <HedgeMage> Oooh!  My housemate is making us tea :D
[03:50] <HedgeMage> I'll brb...I need to switch WMs for a moment.
[03:54] <HedgeMage> Much better :)
[03:58] <HedgeMage> Okay, really done now.
[03:58] <HedgeMage> :)
[03:58] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: So has anything happened with the web site since last I was around?
[03:59] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, sorry I haven't had much time, my exams are going on right now so that and I am working on kdelibs too, so sorry
[04:30] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: don't be sorry at all... I was just trying to see how much catching up I have to do :)
[04:32] <sbalneav> anyone who's interested in art, have a look at gartoon-redux in my ppa for lucid.
[04:32] <sbalneav> I'm liking it, and thinking we should switch from gartoon.
[04:34] <HedgeMage> sbalneav: can you imagebin a screenie of it in use?  I'm on a pretty iconless flux theme atm, but I'd like to take a look.
[04:43] <sbalneav> one sec
[04:45] <HedgeMage> thanks!
[04:48] <sbalneav> HedgeMage: http://imagebin.ca/view/kwtpw0.html
[04:50] <HedgeMage> sbalneav: Oooh!  I really like them.  Less crayon-looking, more modern-cartoony :D
[04:54] <sbalneav> yeah, looks nice
[05:17] <HedgeMage> I think I'm off to bed
[05:17] <HedgeMage> ttyal
[05:40] <alkisg> Hey noone posted "edubuntu bug day minutes" on the list?!!!
[05:40] <alkisg> (good morning all btw) :)
[10:47] <viggy_prabhu> hi friends,
[10:48] <viggy_prabhu> i just downloaded a edubuntu 9.10 iso through torrent
[10:48] <viggy_prabhu> i need to check its md5sum
[10:48] <viggy_prabhu> can anybody send a link where i can find its md5sum?
[10:50] <viggy_prabhu> ?
[10:51] <viggy_prabhu> got it
[10:51] <viggy_prabhu> thanks
[13:46] <alkisg> Goooooood news! Lucid will have a new alternatives system for the graphics drivers, so that many proprietary drivers can be installed simultaneously.
[13:47] <alkisg> So it's possible to have all proprietary drivers in the chroot (both for thin and fat clients), and an initscript to just call update-alternatives for the correct driver.
[13:48] <stgraber> well, currently it mainly means we can't have a laptop with working video driver ;)
[13:48] <alkisg> Heh :D
[13:48] <stgraber> also, the binary drivers don't help for 3D accelaration as that doesn't work over the network
[13:49] <alkisg> If that actually works for Lucid, it'll be nice to create an "--install-all-binary-drivers" ltsp-build-client plugin
[13:49] <stgraber> you'd need the right GL library both on the application server and on the thin client
[13:49] <stgraber> at least it's the case for nvidia and ati
[13:49] <alkisg> stgraber: it helps *a lot* for fat clients
[13:49] <alkisg> I don't know about you, but that fat client plugin worked wonders for me
[13:49] <alkisg> I'll advice all Greek schools using linux to use it, if they have good enough labs...
[13:51] <alkisg> stgraber, highvoltage: btw, would you mind if I did some major changes in 030-fat-client, and of course test them?
[13:56] <highvoltage> alkisg: go ahead
[13:56] <alkisg> Thanks! :)
[13:57] <highvoltage> alkisg: fat clients can work very very nicely if you have a super-fast network and store the nbd image in RAM :)
[13:58] <alkisg> highvoltage: I've only tried it on my 100mbps home network for now, and it was much better than I expected
[13:58] <alkisg> The typical usage here in schools is: 1 server with e.g. 4 Gb RAM and 10 clients
[13:59] <alkisg> In this case, the nbd image will be loaded in RAM after some minutes of usage
[14:00] <alkisg> So for the next week I'd like to make the fat chroot building as automatic as possible
[14:09] <dgroos1> Good Morning
[14:09] <alkisg> Hi dgroos1
[14:09] <dgroos1> Busy day yesterday--hugging bugs till many were squaaashed!
[14:09] <alkisg> highvoltage: did you have problems running any particular programs from the fat clients? E.g. googleearth needs SSH_FOLLOW_SYMLINKS=false in lts.conf to run...
[14:09] <highvoltage> good afternoon dgroos1
[14:09] <dgroos1> highvoltage: :)
[14:10] <highvoltage> alkisg: on Intrepid I ran googleearth just fine on fat clients
[14:10] <alkisg> Yeah intrepid din't have ssh symlinks on by default
[14:10] <highvoltage> alkisg: ah, but I did use nfs for home
[14:10] <highvoltage> alkisg: I haven't ran googleearth from the current implementation yet
[14:10] <alkisg> nfs for home? How was that handled by the fat plugin?
[14:10] <highvoltage> alkisg: but it's a good thing to test
[14:11] <highvoltage> alkisg: that was all manual, no plugins or anything nice
[14:11] <alkisg> Ah, ok
[14:11] <alkisg> I think there are lots of possibilities opening now with fat cilents, e.g. copying italc keys, configuring squid etc on the clients...
[14:12] <alkisg> A lot of settings could be done automatically by an "edubuntu fat customization plugin" or something
[14:12] <highvoltage> yeah you could even use it to run a bunch of diskless servers
[14:12] <highvoltage> (if you have very trustworthy storage, etc)
[14:12] <alkisg> I'm going to do such a "configure everything" plugin for schools here, but probably many of those would be useful for other schools as well,
[14:12] <alkisg> so I'd like to send upstream whatever others will find useful
[14:13] <highvoltage> yep, let's include as much of it as possible
[14:13] <alkisg> Yey! :)
[14:18] <alkisg> I'm also thinking to allow the use of a user-provided configuration file to specify all those options (e.g. /etc/ltsp/fat-client.conf), as configuration files are easier to ship/edit. Not all teachers can specify a loooong list of --late-packages xyz --copy-italc-keys --configure-squid --configure-apt-caching etc in a terminal... :) OK, we'll see, /me starts writing a strategy...
[14:27] <dgroos1> alkisg: all the fixes you gave me yesterday worked :)
[14:27] <alkisg> dgroos1, nice :)
[14:29] <dgroos1> What's up with this rouge file--it was in a users home directory: Here's my output with ls -la: "d?????????   ? ?        ?            ?                ? .gvfs"  Can I simply delete this file?  (trying to do some 'home cleaning' ;))
[14:34] <moldy> dgroos1: it's uses by gnome
[14:36] <dgroos1> moldy: hi.  It seems that if it has the permissions so messed up as per the Terminal output, it isn't helping the user, anyway?  Does it get re-created upon login?
[14:37]  * alkisg notes that there's a configuration file he didn't know about: /etc/ltsp/ltsp-build-client.conf
[14:38] <moldy> dgroos1: yes, it does
[14:38] <moldy> dgroos1: you should ignore it usually
[14:39] <dgroos1> moldy: thanks.
[14:39] <moldy> dgroos1: google for gnome/gvfs if you want to learn more
[14:39] <dgroos1> will do.
[14:47] <dgroos1> Read some wikipedia articles--so since it 'allows supported virtual files systems to be mounted through FUSE' and LTSP is a virtual file system, gvfs is key to mounting a thin client users gnome interface?
[14:47] <sbalneav> Morning all
[14:48] <sbalneav> dgroos1: No, gvfs is used to handle things like trash, burning cd's, remote filesystem access via nautilus, etc.
[14:49] <sbalneav> it doesn't care wether you're on the console or a thin client.
[14:52] <dgroos> Morning to you (afternoon to alkisg, highvoltage and moldy--anyone in a time zone where it's night still/already?:))
[14:52] <dgroos> sbalneav--ok thanks
[15:22] <moldy> dgroos1: hi :)
[15:23] <moldy> dgroos: just out of curiosity: how do you know my timezone?
[15:42] <sbalneav> Are we still shipping denemo?
[15:44]  * highvoltage fires up virtualbox to make sure
[15:45] <sbalneav> it's not installed on my box at home which I just upgraded yesterday from the dvd build
[15:45] <sbalneav> so either a) we need to add it to the seeds (my vote) or b) take it off the bug page.
[15:48]  * alkisg doesn't have it on his edubuntu Lucid box
[15:51] <highvoltage> I'll remove it from the list
[15:59] <sbalneav> So, we've dropped denemo?
[16:11] <alkisg> Is there any reason for disabling the installation of Recommends:" in fat clients?
[16:12] <stgraber> alkisg: recommends should be disable by default in the chroot
[16:12] <alkisg> stgraber: for fat clients? why?
[16:13] <stgraber> not only for fat clients
[16:13] <alkisg> It is disabled for thin clients, but I'm thinking we shouldn't disable it for fat clients
[16:13] <alkisg> This way fat clients will behave more like normal workstations. Otherwise we'll be having many users complaining about missing packages..
[16:14] <alkisg> I think we can mark the packages we don't want (e.g. gdm) with some apt configuration file
[16:14] <stgraber> we can try changing that plugin to only disable recommends when --fat-client isn't set
[16:14] <stgraber> but we'll need some testing for that
[16:14] <alkisg> Right
[16:15] <alkisg> I'll give the next few days to all that, I'll just be asking here for confirmations once in a while :)
[16:16] <alkisg> (thanks!)
[16:16] <stgraber> ok, feel free to nag highvoltage about it ;)
[16:16] <alkisg> Heh, ok :(
[16:16] <alkisg> (I guess my questions will be more ltsp specific than highvoltage can answer...)
[16:17] <stgraber> ok, then ping me :)
[16:17] <alkisg> Ok :)
[16:19] <highvoltage> alkisg: or ping me then I'll ping stgraber :)
[16:19] <alkisg> lol :D
[16:19] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I looked over the bugs filed against ltsp, they seem mostly relevant
[16:46] <sbalneav> highvoltage: there's about 15 or so out of the 50 that are kind of "other peoples problems", but I'm more than happy to have them under LTSP, since they do affect us.
[16:47] <sbalneav> what I need to do is get a bit more proactive about "also affects" tagging
[18:50] <dgroos1> moldy: just got back and see your question.
[18:51] <dgroos1> I like to be able to picture/make connections in my head so I right clicked on 'moldy', selected, 'info' copied your name, pasted it in google, selected the ubuntu web page (or was it launchpad page?) clicked on your name, and on your launchpad page you have provided the info where you live so I just looked at the map there and noted it was *about* the same latitude as alkisg and highvoltage.  I like the local/world context :)
[18:53] <highvoltage> heh
[18:54] <highvoltage> yes I guess the way we see the world is vastly different than previous generations
[19:03] <highvoltage> oh dear
[19:04] <highvoltage> we should've probably made more noise about the edubuntu meeting
[19:05] <highvoltage> alkisg, stgraber, sbalneav, dgroos1... edubuntu meeting now...
[19:05]  * alkisg got here just in time (by sheer luck :P)
[19:06] <dgroos1> I've got 8 minutes before I've got to run to a meeting...  Where's it at again?
[19:07] <mhall119|work> dgroos1: #ubuntu-meeting
[19:07] <dgroos1> mhall119|work: thanks!
[20:02] <stgraber> highvoltage: sorry, was in a meeting at this time, I forgot to put it in Zimbra so it didn't conflict with my existing meeting ...
[20:36] <alkisg> Not LTSP related: How can I share a printer between two regular ubuntu machines?
[20:36] <alkisg> I see a "share printer" check box in the printer properties, but I don't see how I'll locate it from the other pc
[20:40] <sbalneav> alkisg: It should just "show up"
[20:40] <alkisg> Ugh...
[20:40] <alkisg> That's what I'm trying: http://blog.mypapit.net/2008/05/enable-printer-sharing-with-ubuntu-computers.html
[20:40] <sbalneav> See, I always just edit cupsd.conf and printers.conf directly.
[20:40] <alkisg> sbalneav: never mind it just showed up!
[20:41] <alkisg> Automatically, like you said, I did nothing on the client...
[20:41] <sbalneav> yeah, it sometimes takes ab bit.
[20:41] <sbalneav> I think cups only rescans for IPP printers once every few minutes.
[20:41] <sbalneav> What's REALLY helpful, that isn't in the gui, is restricting based on user/group
[20:42] <alkisg> Up until now, I've only used printing with ltsp, so it was as simple as it gets
[20:43] <sbalneav> So, in your printers.conf, you can say things like:
[20:43] <sbalneav> AllowUser alkisg
[20:43] <sbalneav> or
[20:43] <sbalneav> AllowGroup Marketing
[20:43] <alkisg> What about quotas per user?
[20:43] <alkisg> I.e. "each user can print 100 pages per month"
[20:44] <alkisg> Is that doable?
[20:44] <sbalneav> Hmmm, not sure if cups does quotas.... lemme see
[20:44] <stgraber> alkisg: for fat clients, just make your application server listen on the network for CUPS request (instead of localhost) and set CUPS_SERVER=<ip of your server> in lts.conf
[20:44] <stgraber> alkisg: that'll make cups works for localapps/fatclient automagically
[20:44] <sbalneav> http://www.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/CUPS-printing.html#id2647421
[20:44]  * alkisg notes down what stgraber just said, but has no clue what he said just yet :D
[20:45] <stgraber> you don't have quota in cups but you can use an external module (pyquota IIRC) to store that info in LDAP
[20:45] <stgraber> alkisg: I assumed you're trying to make printing works for fat clients ?
[20:45] <sbalneav> lpadmin -p quotaprinter -o job-quota-period=604800 \ -o job-k-limit=1024 -o job-page-limit=100
[20:45] <alkisg> stgraber: no, but what you said is more useful than what I was trying to do :D
[20:45] <stgraber> alkisg: ok ;)
[20:46] <alkisg> Hey, thanks sbalneav. I'll not that down as well
[20:46] <sbalneav> that limits you to jobs no bigger than 1 meg or 100 pages during a 1 week period
[20:46] <alkisg> *note
[20:46] <stgraber> sbalneav: that's per printer though, not per user, is it ?
[20:46] <sbalneav> per printer, yes.
[20:47] <sbalneav> I'm not sure cups can handle per user.
[20:47] <stgraber> sbalneav: as I mentioned, you can, using pyquota or whatever it's called, it stores that in LDAP in the user record
[21:00] <sbalneav> Ah, cool, never looked at pyquota.
[21:00] <sbalneav> Here a legalaid, printing's unlimited.
[21:11] <stgraber> I guess we have a customer where we deployed it, we had it here too at some point but dropped it. It requires good management and pretty much nobody was using our CUPS server anyway here ;)
[21:12] <stgraber> they are talking directly to the printers using IPP and their local cups ;)
[21:47] <dgroos1> Here's my 2 cents... As a teacher it is very important to be able to set printing limits--especially in places where there are more students of the limit-testing type.  I've had students printing out 50 pages of 'cheats' for a video game or printing out 10 copies of a large photo unrelated to the content.  I've had beginning students accidentally print out 30 copies of the same project.  Having quotas is basic functionality needed in any lab sit
[21:47] <dgroos1> sorry for the paragraph :)
[21:49] <sbalneav> dgroos1: Well, looks like cups supports per-printer directly, and with pyquota you can do per-user
[21:49] <stgraber> we have an edubuntu image to test
[21:49] <stgraber> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/edubuntu/all
[21:50] <stgraber> both needs testing, for these who downloaded one for the bug day, you may want to use rsync to get only the difference ;)
[21:50] <sbalneav> did you roll new ltsp-trunk and ltspfs-trunk packages?
[21:51] <stgraber> nope, I'll upload after alpha-2 is released
[21:51] <sbalneav> or is that not till next week
[21:51] <sbalneav> right
[21:51] <sbalneav> that's what I thought.
[21:55]  * highvoltage rsyncs
[22:09] <dgroos1> sbalneav: you may find this hard to believe, but I struggled getting a printer to even print (problem was that the printer had an ip that was incompatible with my local network).
[22:11] <dgroos1> So, my dream of edubuntu being used in all classroom requires not *just* solutions but really simple solutions for the numerous basic functions that a teacher would need.  Of course, they don't have to be basic enough for a non or semi-tech-able teacher, but a tech should be able to figure it out.
[22:12] <sbalneav> Nice dream :)
[22:12] <dgroos1> Is there a list, somewhere, of the basic functionality a classroom lab would need?  I think I might have put it somewhere...
[22:13] <sbalneav> At the end of the day, you are setting up technology.
[22:13] <sbalneav> If you get a cast off printer with a network card that's got a hard-programmed incorrect ip address, that's not something we're going to be able to code around.
[22:15] <sbalneav> and some of the stuff you'd need for simple solutions isn't coded yet.
[22:15] <sbalneav> So, yeah, we'll get there, but it's not going to happen tomorrow :)
[22:15] <dgroos1> 'tis a dream but with some communication between the teacher and programming worlds, we could come up with a list of apps, of functions, then focus on just those and make them super-suave, super-slick.  You know, like what you've done with sabayon, that is one of those 'basic functions' a teacher needs, and it is easy to use and it works.  I've not had any problems with it.
[22:16] <sbalneav> Sure, well, that's where making spec's on launchpad, and prioritizing what's needed, etc, is an important part of the project.
[22:17] <dgroos1> I agree.  I've been thinking about this for some time now.  What can teachers add to edubuntu.  Not sure this is the time to get into it and it should probably be to the lists.
[22:17] <sbalneav> And here's what I've been on about for years.
[22:17] <sbalneav> You've been *thinking*
[22:18] <sbalneav> and don't take this the wrong way, I'm not ragging on you, but we need less *thinking* and more *doing*
[22:18] <sbalneav> so by all means, post it to the list
[22:18] <sbalneav> get a discussion going,
[22:18] <sbalneav> write a spec
[22:18] <sbalneav> etc.
[22:18] <sbalneav> that's how things get turned into code.
[22:19] <sbalneav> We've made some serious progress in that department
[22:20] <sbalneav> guys like alkis, etc have come on board, and it's really beginning to feel as if the ships starting to move somewhere.
[22:21] <dgroos1> You are right, I've not added a lot to edubuntu development at this point.  However, because of the (literally) hundreds of 'extra' hours I've put in trying to make it work in my classroom, hundreds of students know and use Edubuntu--use the edubuntu that you have helped create :-)
[22:21] <sbalneav> But I've seen this all too often, this is the time when the people who've been hoping for something to get going, sit back and say "whew, well, things are moving now, looks like I can rest easy", when this is exactly the time to get even MORE busy :)
[22:22] <dgroos1> guys like alkisg have done things so that thousands of students know and use edubuntu.  He is in a unique position to be astride both worlds and he leverages that!
[22:22] <sbalneav> absolutely
[22:22] <highvoltage> /topic yay alkisg \o/
[22:22] <sbalneav> I'm purely a tech, and I've never taught anything outside of a few minor java courses.
[22:23] <alkisg> :P
[22:23] <alkisg> dgroos1: sure, not all teachers are able or even have the time to help with development. Just putting edubuntu in classrooms sometimes needs more strength than developing a full blown app.
[22:23] <sbalneav> years ago
[22:23] <alkisg> dgroos1: but on the other hand, we've had lots and lots of people here that came, said how they'd like edubuntu to be, and done exactly nothing to accomplish it...
[22:23] <dgroos1> Yes, indeed.  For me to act I need to know what I'm doing.  And as a slow but thorough thinker, this takes a while :)
[22:24] <sbalneav> Anywho, time for me to head home.
[22:24] <sbalneav> be on later tonight, as always
[22:24] <sbalneav> cya
[22:24] <alkisg> Bye sbalneav :)
[22:24] <dgroos1> Bye sbalneav
[22:25] <dgroos1> even in my short (12-15 months) time I've been around edubuntu I've seen a lot of passionate people enter this room, move about, then leave.
[22:26] <dgroos1> I'm not saying that 'you ought to do this', I'm saying 'I've been thinking a lot and I think we ought to do this'.  But...
[22:27] <dgroos1> my style is to toss ideas into the fray and see how they develop--kind of group thinking :) so sorry if they aren't so developed--that the help I'm asking of y'all.
[22:29] <dgroos1> OK.  My big question is, how can 'teachers' who of course have as much unique professional knowledge as do programmers, add to this enterprise--in addition to making the effort to teach with Edubuntu.
[22:29] <dgroos1> oops .=?
[22:32] <dgroos1> It seems that one of the goals of our community (edubuntu community) is to help develop children/help children develop with FLOSS, esp. Edubuntu--is this so?  What do you think?
[22:41] <dgroos1> OK-- so I was talking to my self-- e-mail is better format, perhaps...