[00:42] I'm kind of new at this. I just edited chapter 9's .tex. [00:43] I committed and merged [00:43] now do i push? [00:43] or send? [00:58] OK guys--Looks like I screwed up. It was my first time with bzr and I seem to have renamed everything? I can no longer make. Please forgive me =[. I would really appreciate some assistance cleaning up my spilled milk. [01:07] Hi. I just saw your project online and wanted my help with any LaTeX or book design issues you might have. (I've subscribed to the mailing list, but if there's anything immediately I can help with, feel free to let me know!) [01:09] s/wanted my/wanted to offer my/ [01:12] hi godbyk, welcome to the team [01:12] have you got experience in LaTeX? [01:13] humphreybc: Yeah, I've designed and typset one book with LaTeX (http://kevin.godby.org/ShinyHappyUsers.pdf) and am the developer of a LaTeX document class based on the design of Edward Tufte's books (http://code.google.com/p/tufte-latex/). [01:14] oh neat [01:14] well jmburgess and dutchie are the two LaTeX guys around here [01:15] I mean all the writers know LaTeX, but they have been working on the formatting and template etc [01:15] Cool. [01:15] We do need more help with quite a lot of LaTeX stuff - polishing up things like definition and margin notes, formatting, chapter headings, we need better way to display the credits without using bullet points [01:15] inserting images etc [01:16] dutchie, jmburgess: ping [01:16] Is there a style guide for the writers? There are currently a lot of inconsistencies in some of the nit-picky areas (like quotation marks, dashes, displayed code). [01:17] yep there is one that's a work in progress. You could help by enhancing it :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide [01:17] Once it's a bit more in depth I will add it as a link on the main wiki menu bar [01:17] Thanks for the link. [01:18] Looks like my two pet peeves are top on the list. :-) [01:19] heh [01:19] well yeah basically you're welcome to grab the branch and start fiddling. Add in comments so the others know what you've done and when you push changes be sure to make the description detailed. Talk to dutchie and jmburgess - I'm sure they'll love your help. [01:21] Do you know if the current design is pretty much where everyone wants it to be? Or is it all up in the air still? [01:22] design ie the colour scheme/font/indentation etc? [01:22] hey everone [01:22] Yeah, the colors, layout, typefaces, etc. [01:23] whats up? [01:23] I see latex related things [01:23] whats the question? [01:23] jmburgess: I was just offering to help out with any LaTeX- or design-related stuff. [01:23] godbyk: I feel like you are far more hard core latex user than me [01:23] haha [01:24] Heh.. and I'm still learning. [01:24] yeah latex is huge [01:24] (Seems like I'll never know all the ins and outs of TeX!) [01:24] yep [01:24] but yeah I am working on getting like sidebars, and note boxes to work [01:24] which doesn't seem hard [01:25] just school is starting up so my free time is dwindling [01:25] godbyk: would you like something to do? [01:25] font colours are reasonably set. Layout is book format, so that's pretty much decided. The size of the paper is not decided on - probably needs to be changed to A4. Notes and margin notes are definitely not set, they need lots of polishing. Indentation is not confirmed [01:25] Sure! [01:25] Neither are chapter headings [01:25] If you have a list of things that need to be done, feel free to dump it on me and I'll give it a go. [01:26] Most of it is just proposed stuff, basically what we'd like to see - but it needs a lot of polishing and fine tuning, especially in the area of notes, URLs and code boxes etc [01:26] So we have the white space between the chapter headings and the top set correct [01:26] Is the book going to be printed or just for on-screen viewing? [01:26] oh jmburgess apart from the Contents [01:26] but that (for whatever reason) doesn't apply to the Contents page [01:26] yeah [01:26] there is a big gap above the contents [01:26] heh yeah [01:26] godbyk: if you want to work on that, go for it [01:26] well you guys talk LaTeX :P [01:26] haha [01:26] humphreybc: Thanks for the help in getting started! [01:26] godbyk: The book is primarily for online viewing, but it should be printable [01:27] um it's not meant to be printed, but we will be providing a two pages landscape thing for printing, to save paper [01:27] see the "answers" on the wiki [01:27] right [01:27] also there are a few bug reports about latex formatting [01:27] You know what I might add all this crap to the to do list on the front page [01:28] Will there be a lot of margin notes? If so, it might be good to make the margin wider to accommodate the notes. [01:28] there might be quite a few, yes [01:28] we're not sure on the definition notes - as we are going to have a glossary I believe [01:28] yeah I need to get the figures and such to work [01:28] so we could perhaps do a short definition in the note and a longer one in the glossary, or no definition notes just the glossary [01:28] the notes I am doing won't be in the margins [01:29] or no glossary and all definition notes [01:29] I think glossary is god [01:29] depends how well integrated the notes turn out [01:29] the notes I think are for like warnings, security things and commands [01:29] and how pretty they look [01:29] they are gunna look good I promise [01:29] okay jmburgess: fire some LaTeX to do stuff at me [01:29] aight [01:29] ummm [01:29] Notes [01:29] ToC whitespace [01:30] Title (integrate actually into the latex doc) [01:30] Hmm.. I'll need better descriptions than that. :-) [01:30] Screenshot formatting (with wiki howto) [01:30] index formatting (with wiki howto_ [01:30] yup don't worry i'm getting there godbyk :) [01:30] np [01:30] glossary formatting (with wiki howto) [01:31] get the footer styling correct (I need to redefine the plain style and such, look at diff between chapter pages and regular pages) [01:31] cool cool [01:32] keep going :) [01:32] I think thats all I got [01:32] okay cool [01:32] what about general project stuff? [01:32] like non latex todo items [01:32] ummm [01:32] actually start on my chapter [01:32] haha [01:33] ummmmm [01:33] haha [01:33] not sure what else, make sure that we can bring the translations back into the doc [01:33] oh latex todo [01:33] make sure all the languages we want to use will work in latex [01:34] cool [01:34] automate language merging and such with the make file [01:35] look into latex to html converters if people want an html version [01:35] so yeah [01:35] plenty of stuff [01:35] anything else you think I should take care of? [01:35] nope I think that's a lot :) [01:36] haha [01:36] check the To Do list now on the main wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/ [01:37] looks good [01:38] somewhat daunting [01:38] godbyk: there we go, lots of stuff to sink your teeth into [01:38] yeah it's a bit of stuff [01:38] godbyk: does that make sense, if you need help or don't understand how we have set stuff up send me an email [01:38] godbyk: you've picked a great place to contribute xD [01:39] looking through the to do list.. one sec. [01:39] (or you can post to the mailing list, or email me, or ask a "question" on the project or file a bug) [01:39] okay, sounds simple enough. [01:39] :) [01:39] and the items on the to do list make sense, too. can I edit the wiki when I've completed one, or will you guys handle that? [01:39] you must be a whizz at tex [01:40] feel free to edit the wiki [01:40] also, should I attach patches to bugs for each of those or commit directly? [01:40] commit directly :) [01:40] 'kay [01:40] I'd prefer you remove each item as you complete it, less work for me :) [01:40] humphreybc: sure thing! [01:41] and yeah at the moment we're incorporating an element of trust by letting everyone commit directly [01:41] as the project gets bigger obviously we'll have to rethink the branch setup but for now it's fine. And you seem to know what you're doing so that's even better! [01:41] humphreybc: yeah, we might need to start seriously rethinking that [01:41] My changes should be fairly localized, too. [01:41] jmburgess: yep, something to ponder. Once we get alpha out a lot of pressure will be taken off as the main content should be there [01:41] A quick question, though: [01:42] right [01:42] Would it be better if we moved all the formatting code (loading packages, formatting headings, etc.) to our own document class (.cls) file? [01:42] then we could do \documentclass{ubuntu-manual} instead of \documentclass{book} [01:42] would clean up the preamble and make it easier to reuse for future editions. [01:43] (and all the formatting diffs would be localized to the .cls file) [01:43] heh sounds too complicated for me, but that sounds like a good idea. jmburgess, dutchie - what do you guys think? [01:43] godbyk: go for it, I wasn't sure how to do that [01:43] haha [01:43] jmburgess: no problem -- it's pretty easy once you figure it out. it's just not terribly obvious at first. :) [01:44] sweet! [01:44] good stuff. oh godbyk what timezone are you? [01:44] I'm in US/Central. [01:44] and jmburgess: should we hold another full meeting at some point? [01:44] godbyk: awesome yea that is something I had no idea how to do [01:44] okay so what time is it over there now? morning? [01:44] It's 19:44. [01:44] oops [01:44] yea I am eastern [01:44] so it is 20:44 for me [01:44] I'm usually up from noon to 0600. [01:44] (night owl) [01:44] 2:44pm here :) [01:45] what day humphreybc? [01:45] oh well that's useful for me then [01:45] uh wednesday [01:45] yeah you are a day ahead of us [01:45] its tuesday here [01:45] ha, well, today is nothing special so you don't have much to look forward to tomorrow xP [01:45] correct [01:46] I think we should have our sat. meeting [01:46] I've got 2 hours of labs now, then I have to pick up some paper and stuff for my new printer. I'll be home in about three hours. [01:46] make it a full one? [01:46] or a brief? [01:46] and just make sure we announce on the mailing list that the meeting is coming up [01:46] brief [01:46] okay cool [01:46] I don't think there are any huge decisions coming up [01:47] Sweet yeah that's what I thought too [01:47] okay i'll email the list later this afternoon [01:47] what's the list volume like at the moment? [01:47] It's probably got the highest traffic of any Ubuntu project lol [01:48] Heh.. I just subscribed before joining this channel and I've received at least half a dozen messages already. [01:48] haha [01:48] yeah it's um... busy round these parts [01:48] I get about 50 emails a day [01:50] yeah same [01:50] thankfully most of them are just like [01:50] blueprint changes [01:50] and such [01:51] alirhgt guys, I need to go to a meeting, I will talk to you all later [01:51] okay see ya [01:51] see ya, jmburgess. [01:51] I should be back on in like 3ish hours [01:51] I'll still be here. :) [01:51] cya, godbyk if you have any questions or ideas, you obviously know more than me so just shoot me an email and go for it [01:51] okay me too [01:51] i'm off to a 3pm lab [01:51] dutchie knows quite a bit about tex but he's not around atm [01:52] yep [01:52] cya [01:52] see ya'll in 3 hours [01:52] oh and godbyk, i'm not sure if you have an eye for design but either way could you have a look at the title page proposals on the wiki and add some feedback in the comments section [01:52] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots [01:52] wait about 5 minutes tho [01:52] i'm just putting up another proposal [01:53] sure [01:53] I'm happy to critique designs, but horrible at making my own graphics. [01:53] book design I can do, graphics not so much. :) [01:54] heh [01:54] i'm sort of the same [01:55] okay feel free to edit the page now [01:55] gotta ru [01:55] run* [01:55] see ya! [04:11] hello [04:12] hiya humphreybc :) [04:12] hows it going everyone [04:14] well, its going good for me ... [04:19] is the main branch broken by any chance? [04:24] I hope I didn't break it! I switched the formatting code over to its own file (r84). [04:24] meh i'm sure it's fine [04:25] latest revision builds fine for me [04:25] I just branched a new copy and it compiled okay. [04:26] humphreybc: btw, do you know what effect you're trying to achieve with regard to the chapter headings? [04:27] not really [04:27] hehe [04:27] the reason the chapter headings are as low as they are is due to the 4cm top margin. [04:27] hmm [04:27] I can pull the headings up into that margin, but I'm not sure what effect is desired. [04:27] the numbered chapters are okay [04:27] but the Prologue and ToC headings are wayyyy low [04:28] and what is your opinion on the font and size? I think perhaps the "Chapter 6" part could be smaller, whereas the actual title could remain the same size. [04:28] well, they're being pulled up by 5em. [04:28] Do we actually need to say 'Chapter'? [04:28] probably not [04:28] what do you propose? [04:28] If we just say '6 System Maintenance' in large letters, that's probably sufficient, I'd think. [04:29] though once we decide on a cover image, we can pull design elements from that and make the chapter headings a bit fancier, too. [04:30] for the chapter headings: Software and packaging(one-three Pts bigger than the text font, and maybe bolded), with the chapter and section as a header and footer [04:30] err ' 5. Software and Packaging ' [04:30] sure, maybe 6 - Software Maintenance [04:30] or a dot [04:31] probably better yea, 6. Software Maintenance [04:31] I'm sure whatever you change will be awesome compared to what we have now, godbyk [04:32] humphreybc: well, I didn't know which parts were actually designed (i.e., intentional) and which are unintentional. :) [04:32] most of the manual you will find is just an accidental collaboration of people [04:32] we are very much playing it as we go [04:32] I can play with a few designs and put them on the wiki (as you've done with the title pages) if you like. [04:33] oh yeah sure thing [04:33] fair enough. :) [04:33] that sounds good :) [04:33] Are we targeting both A4 and letter paper or just one? [04:33] i might stick you on the formatting blueprint [04:33] well we're not sure yet. I think we need to switch to A4. [04:34] what's your lp username? [04:34] My lp username is godbyk. [04:34] awesome [04:34] what do you think re: size? [04:34] Btw, how are you guys handling translations of this? [04:34] A4 makes sense... [04:34] translations are done using po4a - talk to dutchie :) [04:35] and rosetta [04:35] http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/ [04:35] Well, A4 is used everywhere *except* the US. [04:35] So it's more popular. [04:35] heh well A4 sounds good to me [04:35] But it's a pain printing an A4 pdf on letter paper and vice versa. [04:35] well [04:35] two versions then? [04:35] how easy is it for two versions? [04:35] (Either way it has to be scaled.) [04:35] It's pretty easy. [04:35] Nominally, one line of code needs to be changed. [04:35] we could customize the size for each language or something [04:36] Oh, that's true. [04:36] oh neat - so it's not a problem for now if it's just one line of code. Set it up so we can easily change it [04:36] I didn't know if you had code already to switch the language babel is using with the .po files or not. (Haven't looked into that side of things yet.) [04:36] oh yeah we also need to work out how to get translations back into the project [04:36] Yeah, that's the part I was curious about. [04:37] I think Josh (dutchie) wants to automate all that [04:37] but he's not sure how.. [04:37] I didn't know if there was already some magic program that handled that with tex files or not. :) [04:37] well there's the po4a project that takes the strings out of latex and puts them in a pot file [04:37] which talks to rosetta on launchpad [04:37] but at the moment josh has to manually update the translation template [04:38] That sounds like a pain. [04:38] we need to automated so it does it when each new revision is pushed through [04:38] ya [04:38] dutchie: ping ping ping ping ping pong [04:38] Okay, well, I'll ponder that problem later. :-) [04:38] sweet :) [04:39] as for style and formatting, you are welcome to play with anything you want - but I think the current font colour scheme looks pretty good, and the font style seems to be okay [04:39] you don't necessarily have to run it by me first unless it's a huge change [04:41] humphreybc: Duly noted. [04:41] sweet as :) [04:45] I just pushed the spacing changes on the chapter heads if you'd like to take a look. [04:45] will do! [04:46] hmm. You've fixed the space between the chapter and the top of the page, which is good - but I think the gap between the chapter header and the section header needs to go back to what it was [04:47] and perhaps the chapter header could be more to the left - it looks a bit odd when it's so indented right above a section that's not as indented. If you follow what i mean :) [04:47] Gotcha. [04:47] Yeah, the section headings are outdented a bit much anyway, I think. [04:47] they probably are yes [04:48] 28 pages with probably not even half the content and no images, wow. [04:48] If we're going to have a lot of notes in the margin, we may want to shift the page to one side to make more room for those notes, too. I'm not sure what your plans are there. [04:48] I don't think we'll have that many notes [04:48] well [04:48] margin notes [04:49] i'm not sure about definition notes [04:49] margin notes are basically just "refer to this chapter for more info on this" [04:49] I think... [04:49] If you're *really* going to put a lot of stuff in the margins, I'd suggest a style more like this one: http://tufte-latex.googlecode.com/files/sample-book-3.5.0.pdf [04:49] Okay, so they'll generally be pretty short? [04:49] they should be yep [04:50] we probably don't need them so boldly coloured - or coloured at all, looking at that sample book. [04:51] we'll have a meeting on saturday to further define and confirm stuff like notes [04:51] Okay. [04:51] which reminds me i need to remind everyone [04:56] * humphreybc sends a reminder to everyone about the meeting [05:03] humphreybc, I didn't break it then? [05:03] Doesn't appear that way no [05:04] :) [05:04] fascinating. no clue what i did [05:04] wouldn't work on my local [05:04] thanks! [05:04] I have to say, I'm really enjoying my first ubuntu project [05:04] I've been using ubuntu (and linux in general) for at least 9-10 years now. [05:05] I don't know much about code, so I'm glad to find a niche to which I can contribute [05:09] oh really? 10 years? wow [05:09] * humphreybc put the agenda up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings [05:09] * humphreybc and also added our meeting to the Fridge calender [05:18] how does one go about making graphs, like histograms and pie charts in ubuntu? [05:19] I'm going to start recording results of the questionnaire and formatting them as easy to read statistics, then I'll put them on the wiki. [05:21] godbyk: sorry about the meeting time, it looks like an uncomfortable hour for most of the US [05:23] np.. I'm usually awake until early morning anyway (5-7 a.m. is when I go to sleep). I'm a total night owl. [05:23] heh well that's okay then [05:23] I'll be back in a bit.. gonna go grocery shopping (yes, at midnight). [05:24] yeah that time seems to suit everywhere except the US... it's afternoon - evening for europe, evening for asia and evening for Australasia [05:24] haha oky [05:24] Darn time zones anyway! :-) [06:30] back now [06:40] hi humphreybc [06:40] hm [06:40] finally internet here [07:31] how's it going? [07:32] humphreybc, hm [07:32] doing some changes here [07:32] if you are free, we could use the gobby app to work on the file together [07:37] explain some more? [07:37] i'm not doing much [07:37] oh and also, humphreybc, I talked to the guys at #ubuntu-devel and they don't think that synaptic will be removed for 10.04 [07:37] Yeah I emailed the folks in charge of the software center [07:37] humphreybc, gobby is an application that hosts a file editing session to which other users can connect [07:37] it probably won't be removed [07:37] and edit simultaneously the same files [07:38] oh ok [07:38] good then :) [07:38] neat, sounds cool. it's in the repos? [07:38] yes [07:39] just installing it now [07:41] good :) [07:41] okay [07:41] how do i work it [07:42] should I host the session? [07:44] that would be a good idea :P [07:46] ok [07:46] hit join session [07:46] connect to this -> 186.15.23.131 [07:46] port is 7020 [07:47] if you have to enter all in one line just enter -> 186.15.23.131:7020 [07:49] session password? [07:49] manual [07:50] neat [07:50] very neat :) [07:52] okay now what [07:52] subscribe to the file? [07:52] hm.. no [07:52] just, if you want to, read what I have changed [07:52] (everything highlighted in a clear greyish blue [07:53] okay cool hold up one sec [07:54] so if i change something [07:54] you see it? [07:55] yes [07:55] in real time :) [07:56] oh [07:56] how do i change my colour [07:56] could you select a clearer color? [07:56] haha yea [07:56] in the toolbar [07:56] i think [07:56] no, in user menu [07:57] hm.. i think that i should not define terms, but instead you should let the users know that there is a glossary in the manual [07:57] can we chat in gobby? [07:57] saves alt tabbing [07:58] ok ok [07:58] do so [08:38] humphreybc: pong :) [08:38] it was 04:38 [08:39] gidday [08:39] sorry what did I ping you for? [08:39] I've forgotten now [08:39] haha [08:40] looks like that godbyk fellow needed help [08:41] ahh, I've got the day off today due to more snow, so I could look at automatically building everything [08:41] oh righto [08:41] yep [08:41] he knows a bit about latex [08:41] well [08:41]