[00:42] <functionofxy> I'm kind of new at this. I just edited chapter 9's .tex.
[00:43] <functionofxy> I committed and merged
[00:43] <functionofxy> now do i push?
[00:43] <functionofxy> or send?
[00:58] <functionofxy> OK guys--Looks like I screwed up. It was my first time with bzr and I seem to have renamed everything? I can no longer make. Please forgive me =[. I would really appreciate some assistance cleaning up my spilled milk.
[01:07] <godbyk> Hi. I just saw your project online and wanted my help with any LaTeX or book design issues you might have.  (I've subscribed to the mailing list, but if there's anything immediately I can help with, feel free to let me know!)
[01:09] <godbyk> s/wanted my/wanted to offer my/
[01:12] <humphreybc> hi godbyk, welcome to the team
[01:12] <humphreybc> have you got experience in LaTeX?
[01:13] <godbyk> humphreybc: Yeah, I've designed and typset one book with LaTeX (http://kevin.godby.org/ShinyHappyUsers.pdf) and am the developer of a LaTeX document class based on the design of Edward Tufte's books (http://code.google.com/p/tufte-latex/).
[01:14] <humphreybc> oh neat
[01:14] <humphreybc> well jmburgess and dutchie are the two LaTeX guys around here
[01:15] <humphreybc> I mean all the writers know LaTeX, but they have been working on the formatting and template etc
[01:15] <godbyk> Cool.
[01:15] <humphreybc> We do need more help with quite a lot of LaTeX stuff - polishing up things like definition and margin notes, formatting, chapter headings, we need better way to display the credits without using bullet points
[01:15] <humphreybc> inserting images etc
[01:16] <humphreybc> dutchie, jmburgess: ping
[01:16] <godbyk> Is there a style guide for the writers?  There are currently a lot of inconsistencies in some of the nit-picky areas (like quotation marks, dashes, displayed code).
[01:17] <humphreybc> yep there is one that's a work in progress. You could help by enhancing it :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide
[01:17] <humphreybc> Once it's a bit more in depth I will add it as a link on the main wiki menu bar
[01:17] <godbyk> Thanks for the link.
[01:18] <godbyk> Looks like my two pet peeves are top on the list. :-)
[01:19] <humphreybc> heh
[01:19] <humphreybc> well yeah basically you're welcome to grab the branch and start fiddling. Add in comments so the others know what you've done and when you push changes be sure to make the description detailed. Talk to dutchie and jmburgess - I'm sure they'll love your help.
[01:21] <godbyk> Do you know if the current design is pretty much where everyone wants it to be? Or is it all up in the air still?
[01:22] <humphreybc> design ie the colour scheme/font/indentation etc?
[01:22] <jmburgess> hey everone
[01:22] <godbyk> Yeah, the colors, layout, typefaces, etc.
[01:23] <jmburgess> whats up?
[01:23] <jmburgess> I see latex related things
[01:23] <jmburgess> whats the question?
[01:23] <godbyk> jmburgess: I was just offering to help out with any LaTeX- or design-related stuff.
[01:23] <jmburgess> godbyk: I feel like you are far more hard core latex user than me
[01:23] <jmburgess> haha
[01:24] <godbyk> Heh.. and I'm still learning.
[01:24] <jmburgess> yeah latex is huge
[01:24] <godbyk> (Seems like I'll never know all the ins and outs of TeX!)
[01:24] <jmburgess> yep
[01:24] <jmburgess> but yeah I am working on getting like sidebars, and note boxes to work
[01:24] <jmburgess> which doesn't seem hard
[01:25] <jmburgess> just school is starting up so my free time is dwindling
[01:25] <jmburgess> godbyk: would you like something to do?
[01:25] <humphreybc> font colours are reasonably set. Layout is book format, so that's pretty much decided. The size of the paper is not decided on - probably needs to be changed to A4. Notes and margin notes are definitely not set, they need lots of polishing. Indentation is not confirmed
[01:25] <godbyk> Sure!
[01:25] <humphreybc> Neither are chapter headings
[01:25] <godbyk> If you have a list of things that need to be done, feel free to dump it on me and I'll give it a go.
[01:26] <humphreybc> Most of it is just proposed stuff, basically what we'd like to see - but it needs a lot of polishing and fine tuning, especially in the area of notes, URLs and code boxes etc
[01:26] <jmburgess> So we have the white space between the chapter headings and the top set correct
[01:26] <godbyk> Is the book going to be printed or just for on-screen viewing?
[01:26] <humphreybc> oh jmburgess apart from the Contents
[01:26] <jmburgess> but that (for whatever reason) doesn't apply to the Contents page
[01:26] <jmburgess> yeah
[01:26] <humphreybc> there is a big gap above the contents
[01:26] <humphreybc> heh yeah
[01:26] <jmburgess> godbyk: if you want to work on that, go for it
[01:26] <humphreybc> well you guys talk LaTeX :P
[01:26] <jmburgess> haha
[01:26] <godbyk> humphreybc: Thanks for the help in getting started!
[01:26] <jmburgess> godbyk: The book is primarily for online viewing, but it should be printable
[01:27] <humphreybc> um it's not meant to be printed, but we will be providing a two pages landscape thing for printing, to save paper
[01:27] <humphreybc> see the "answers" on the wiki
[01:27] <jmburgess> right
[01:27] <humphreybc> also there are a few bug reports about latex formatting
[01:27] <humphreybc> You know what I might add all this crap to the to do list on the front page
[01:28] <godbyk> Will there be a lot of margin notes?  If so, it might be good to make the margin wider to accommodate the notes.
[01:28] <humphreybc> there might be quite a few, yes
[01:28] <humphreybc> we're not sure on the definition notes - as we are going to have a glossary I believe
[01:28] <jmburgess> yeah I need to get the figures and such to work
[01:28] <humphreybc> so we could perhaps do a short definition in the note and a longer one in the glossary, or no definition notes just the glossary
[01:28] <jmburgess> the notes I am doing won't be in the margins
[01:29] <humphreybc> or no glossary and all definition notes
[01:29] <jmburgess> I think glossary is god
[01:29] <humphreybc> depends how well integrated the notes turn out
[01:29] <jmburgess> the notes I think are for like warnings, security things and commands
[01:29] <humphreybc> and how pretty they look
[01:29] <jmburgess> they are gunna look good I promise
[01:29] <humphreybc> okay jmburgess: fire some LaTeX to do stuff at me
[01:29] <jmburgess> aight
[01:29] <jmburgess> ummm
[01:29] <jmburgess> Notes
[01:29] <jmburgess> ToC whitespace
[01:30] <jmburgess> Title (integrate actually into the latex doc)
[01:30] <godbyk> Hmm.. I'll need better descriptions than that.  :-)
[01:30] <jmburgess> Screenshot formatting (with wiki howto)
[01:30] <jmburgess> index formatting (with wiki howto_
[01:30] <humphreybc> yup don't worry i'm getting there godbyk :)
[01:30] <godbyk> np
[01:30] <jmburgess> glossary formatting (with wiki howto)
[01:31] <jmburgess> get the footer styling correct (I need to redefine the plain style and such, look at diff between chapter pages and regular pages)
[01:31] <humphreybc> cool cool
[01:32] <humphreybc> keep going :)
[01:32] <jmburgess> I think thats all I got
[01:32] <humphreybc> okay cool
[01:32] <humphreybc> what about general project stuff?
[01:32] <jmburgess> like non latex todo items
[01:32] <jmburgess> ummm
[01:32] <jmburgess> actually start on my chapter
[01:32] <jmburgess> haha
[01:33] <jmburgess> ummmmm
[01:33] <humphreybc> haha
[01:33] <jmburgess> not sure what else, make sure that we can bring the translations back into the doc
[01:33] <jmburgess> oh latex todo
[01:33] <jmburgess> make sure all the languages we want to use will work in latex
[01:34] <humphreybc> cool
[01:34] <jmburgess> automate language merging and such with the make file
[01:35] <jmburgess> look into latex to html converters if people want an html version
[01:35] <jmburgess> so yeah
[01:35] <jmburgess> plenty of stuff
[01:35] <jmburgess> anything else you think I should take care of?
[01:35] <humphreybc> nope I think that's a lot :)
[01:36] <jmburgess> haha
[01:36] <humphreybc> check the To Do list now on the main wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/
[01:37] <jmburgess> looks good
[01:38] <jmburgess> somewhat daunting
[01:38] <humphreybc> godbyk: there we go, lots of stuff to sink your teeth into
[01:38] <humphreybc> yeah it's a bit of stuff
[01:38] <jmburgess> godbyk: does that make sense, if you need help or don't understand how we have set stuff up send me an email
[01:38] <humphreybc> godbyk: you've picked a great place to contribute xD
[01:39] <godbyk> looking through the to do list.. one sec.
[01:39] <humphreybc> (or you can post to the mailing list, or email me, or ask a "question" on the project or file a bug)
[01:39] <godbyk> okay, sounds simple enough.
[01:39] <godbyk> :)
[01:39] <godbyk> and the items on the to do list make sense, too.  can I edit the wiki when I've completed one, or will you guys handle that?
[01:39] <humphreybc> you must be a whizz at tex
[01:40] <humphreybc> feel free to edit the wiki
[01:40] <godbyk> also, should I attach patches to bugs for each of those or commit directly?
[01:40] <humphreybc> commit directly :)
[01:40] <godbyk> 'kay
[01:40] <humphreybc> I'd prefer you remove each item as you complete it, less work for me :)
[01:40] <godbyk> humphreybc: sure thing!
[01:41] <humphreybc> and yeah at the moment we're incorporating an element of trust by letting everyone commit directly
[01:41] <humphreybc> as the project gets bigger obviously we'll have to rethink the branch setup but for now it's fine. And you seem to know what you're doing so that's even better!
[01:41] <jmburgess> humphreybc: yeah, we might need to start seriously rethinking that
[01:41] <godbyk> My changes should be fairly localized, too.
[01:41] <humphreybc> jmburgess: yep, something to ponder. Once we get alpha out a lot of pressure will be taken off as the main content should be there
[01:41] <godbyk> A quick question, though:
[01:42] <jmburgess> right
[01:42] <godbyk> Would it be better if we moved all the formatting code (loading packages, formatting headings, etc.) to our own document class (.cls) file?
[01:42] <godbyk> then we could do \documentclass{ubuntu-manual} instead of \documentclass{book}
[01:42] <godbyk> would clean up the preamble and make it easier to reuse for future editions.
[01:43] <godbyk> (and all the formatting diffs would be localized to the .cls file)
[01:43] <humphreybc> heh sounds too complicated for me, but that sounds like a good idea. jmburgess, dutchie - what do you guys think?
[01:43] <jmburgess> godbyk: go for it, I wasn't sure how to do that
[01:43] <jmburgess> haha
[01:43] <godbyk> jmburgess: no problem -- it's pretty easy once you figure it out.  it's just not terribly obvious at first. :)
[01:44] <humphreybc> sweet!
[01:44] <humphreybc> good stuff. oh godbyk what timezone are you?
[01:44] <godbyk> I'm in US/Central.
[01:44] <humphreybc> and jmburgess: should we hold another full meeting at some point?
[01:44] <jmburgess> godbyk: awesome yea that is something I had no idea how to do
[01:44] <humphreybc> okay so what time is it over there now? morning?
[01:44] <godbyk> It's 19:44.
[01:44] <humphreybc> oops
[01:44] <jmburgess> yea I am eastern
[01:44] <jmburgess> so it is 20:44 for me
[01:44] <godbyk> I'm usually up from noon to 0600.
[01:44] <godbyk> (night owl)
[01:44] <humphreybc> 2:44pm here :)
[01:45] <jmburgess> what day humphreybc?
[01:45] <humphreybc> oh well that's useful for me then
[01:45] <humphreybc> uh wednesday
[01:45] <jmburgess> yeah you are a day ahead of us
[01:45] <jmburgess> its tuesday here
[01:45] <humphreybc> ha, well, today is nothing special so you don't have much to look forward to tomorrow xP
[01:45] <jmburgess> correct
[01:46] <jmburgess> I think we should have our sat. meeting
[01:46] <humphreybc> I've got 2 hours of labs now, then I have to pick up some paper and stuff for my new printer. I'll be home in about three hours.
[01:46] <humphreybc> make it a full one?
[01:46] <humphreybc> or a brief?
[01:46] <jmburgess> and just make sure we announce on the mailing list that the meeting is coming up
[01:46] <jmburgess> brief
[01:46] <humphreybc> okay cool
[01:46] <jmburgess> I don't think there are any huge decisions coming up
[01:47] <humphreybc> Sweet yeah that's what I thought too
[01:47] <humphreybc> okay i'll email the list later this afternoon
[01:47] <humphreybc> what's the list volume like at the moment?
[01:47] <humphreybc> It's probably got the highest traffic of any Ubuntu project lol
[01:48] <godbyk> Heh.. I just subscribed before joining this channel and I've received at least half a dozen messages already.
[01:48] <humphreybc> haha
[01:48] <humphreybc> yeah it's um... busy round these parts
[01:48] <humphreybc> I get about 50 emails a day
[01:50] <jmburgess> yeah same
[01:50] <jmburgess> thankfully most of them are just like
[01:50] <jmburgess> blueprint changes
[01:50] <jmburgess> and such
[01:51] <jmburgess> alirhgt guys, I need to go to a meeting, I will talk to you all later
[01:51] <humphreybc> okay see ya
[01:51] <godbyk> see ya, jmburgess.
[01:51] <jmburgess> I should be back on in like 3ish hours
[01:51] <godbyk> I'll still be here. :)
[01:51] <jmburgess> cya, godbyk if you have any questions or ideas, you obviously know more than me so just shoot me an email and go for it
[01:51] <humphreybc> okay me too
[01:51] <humphreybc> i'm off to a 3pm lab
[01:51] <humphreybc> dutchie knows quite a bit about tex but he's not around atm
[01:52] <jmburgess> yep
[01:52] <jmburgess> cya
[01:52] <humphreybc> see ya'll in 3 hours
[01:52] <humphreybc> oh and godbyk, i'm not sure if you have an eye for design but either way could you have a look at the title page proposals on the wiki and add some feedback in the comments section
[01:52] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
[01:52] <humphreybc> wait about 5 minutes tho
[01:52] <humphreybc> i'm just putting up another proposal
[01:53] <godbyk> sure
[01:53] <godbyk> I'm happy to critique designs, but horrible at making my own graphics.
[01:53] <godbyk> book design I can do, graphics not so much. :)
[01:54] <humphreybc> heh
[01:54] <humphreybc> i'm sort of the same
[01:55] <humphreybc> okay feel free to edit the page now
[01:55] <humphreybc> gotta ru
[01:55] <humphreybc> run*
[01:55] <humphreybc> see ya!
[04:11] <humphreybc> hello
[04:12] <brishu> hiya humphreybc :)
[04:12] <humphreybc> hows it going everyone
[04:14] <brishu> well, its going good for me ...
[04:19] <humphreybc> is the main branch broken by any chance?
[04:24] <godbyk> I hope I didn't break it!  I switched the formatting code over to its own file (r84).
[04:24] <humphreybc> meh i'm sure it's fine
[04:25] <humphreybc> latest revision builds fine for me
[04:25] <godbyk> I just branched a new copy and it compiled okay.
[04:26] <godbyk> humphreybc: btw, do you know what effect you're trying to achieve with regard to the chapter headings?
[04:27] <humphreybc> not really
[04:27] <humphreybc> hehe
[04:27] <godbyk> the reason the chapter headings are as low as they are is due to the 4cm top margin.
[04:27] <humphreybc> hmm
[04:27] <godbyk> I can pull the headings up into that margin, but I'm not sure what effect is desired.
[04:27] <humphreybc> the numbered chapters are okay
[04:27] <humphreybc> but the Prologue and ToC headings are wayyyy low
[04:28] <humphreybc> and what is your opinion on the font and size? I think perhaps the "Chapter 6" part could be smaller, whereas the actual title could remain the same size.
[04:28] <godbyk> well, they're being pulled up by 5em.
[04:28] <godbyk> Do we actually need to say 'Chapter'?
[04:28] <humphreybc> probably not
[04:28] <humphreybc> what do you propose?
[04:28] <godbyk> If we just say '6 System Maintenance' in large letters, that's probably sufficient, I'd think.
[04:29] <godbyk> though once we decide on a cover image, we can pull design elements from that and make the chapter headings a bit fancier, too.
[04:30] <brishu> for the chapter headings: Software and packaging(one-three Pts bigger than the text font, and maybe bolded), with the chapter and section as a header and footer
[04:30] <brishu> err ' 5. Software and Packaging '
[04:30] <humphreybc> sure, maybe 6 - Software Maintenance
[04:30] <humphreybc> or a dot
[04:31] <humphreybc> probably better yea, 6. Software Maintenance
[04:31] <humphreybc> I'm sure whatever you change will be awesome compared to what we have now, godbyk
[04:32] <godbyk> humphreybc: well, I didn't know which parts were actually designed (i.e., intentional) and which are unintentional.  :)
[04:32] <humphreybc> most of the manual you will find is just an accidental collaboration of people
[04:32] <humphreybc> we are very much playing it as we go
[04:32] <godbyk> I can play with a few designs and put them on the wiki (as you've done with the title pages) if you like.
[04:33] <humphreybc> oh yeah sure thing
[04:33] <godbyk> fair enough. :)
[04:33] <humphreybc> that sounds good :)
[04:33] <godbyk> Are we targeting both A4 and letter paper or just one?
[04:33] <humphreybc> i might stick you on the formatting blueprint
[04:33] <humphreybc> well we're not sure yet. I think we need to switch to A4.
[04:34] <humphreybc> what's your lp username?
[04:34] <godbyk> My lp username is godbyk.
[04:34] <humphreybc> awesome
[04:34] <humphreybc> what do you think re: size?
[04:34] <godbyk> Btw, how are you guys handling translations of this?
[04:34] <humphreybc> A4 makes sense...
[04:34] <humphreybc> translations are done using po4a - talk to dutchie :)
[04:35] <humphreybc> and rosetta
[04:35] <humphreybc> http://po4a.alioth.debian.org/
[04:35] <godbyk> Well, A4 is used everywhere *except* the US.
[04:35] <godbyk> So it's more popular.
[04:35] <humphreybc> heh well A4 sounds good to me
[04:35] <godbyk> But it's a pain printing an A4 pdf on letter paper and vice versa.
[04:35] <humphreybc> well
[04:35] <humphreybc> two versions then?
[04:35] <humphreybc> how easy is it for two versions?
[04:35] <godbyk> (Either way it has to be scaled.)
[04:35] <godbyk> It's pretty easy.
[04:35] <godbyk> Nominally, one line of code needs to be changed.
[04:35] <humphreybc> we could customize the size for each language or something
[04:36] <godbyk> Oh, that's true.
[04:36] <humphreybc> oh neat - so it's not a problem for now if it's just one line of code. Set it up so we can easily change it
[04:36] <godbyk> I didn't know if you had code already to switch the language babel is using with the .po files or not.  (Haven't looked into that side of things yet.)
[04:36] <humphreybc> oh yeah we also need to work out how to get translations back into the project
[04:36] <godbyk> Yeah, that's the part I was curious about.
[04:37] <humphreybc> I think Josh (dutchie) wants to automate all that
[04:37] <humphreybc> but he's not sure how..
[04:37] <godbyk> I didn't know if there was already some magic program that handled that with tex files or not. :)
[04:37] <humphreybc> well there's the po4a project that takes the strings out of latex and puts them in a pot file
[04:37] <humphreybc> which talks to rosetta on launchpad
[04:37] <humphreybc> but at the moment josh has to manually update the translation template
[04:38] <godbyk> That sounds like a pain.
[04:38] <humphreybc> we need to automated so it does it when each new revision is pushed through
[04:38] <humphreybc> ya
[04:38] <humphreybc> dutchie: ping ping ping ping ping pong
[04:38] <godbyk> Okay, well, I'll ponder that problem later. :-)
[04:38] <humphreybc> sweet :)
[04:39] <humphreybc> as for style and formatting, you are welcome to play with anything you want - but I think the current font colour scheme looks pretty good, and the font style seems to be okay
[04:39] <humphreybc> you don't necessarily have to run it by me first unless it's a huge change
[04:41] <godbyk> humphreybc: Duly noted.
[04:41] <humphreybc> sweet as :)
[04:45] <godbyk> I just pushed the spacing changes on the chapter heads if you'd like to take a look.
[04:45] <humphreybc> will do!
[04:46] <humphreybc> hmm. You've fixed the space between the chapter and the top of the page, which is good - but I think the gap between the chapter header and the section header needs to go back to what it was
[04:47] <humphreybc> and perhaps the chapter header could be more to the left - it looks a bit odd when it's so indented right above a section that's not as indented. If you follow what i mean :)
[04:47] <godbyk> Gotcha.
[04:47] <godbyk> Yeah, the section headings are outdented a bit much anyway, I think.
[04:47] <humphreybc> they probably are yes
[04:48] <humphreybc> 28 pages with probably not even half the content and no images, wow.
[04:48] <godbyk> If we're going to have a lot of notes in the margin, we may want to shift the page to one side to make more room for those notes, too.  I'm not sure what your plans are there.
[04:48] <humphreybc> I don't think we'll have that many notes
[04:48] <humphreybc> well
[04:48] <humphreybc> margin notes
[04:49] <humphreybc> i'm not sure about definition notes
[04:49] <humphreybc> margin notes are basically just "refer to this chapter for more info on this"
[04:49] <humphreybc> I think...
[04:49] <godbyk> If you're *really* going to put a lot of stuff in the margins, I'd suggest a style more like this one: http://tufte-latex.googlecode.com/files/sample-book-3.5.0.pdf
[04:49] <godbyk> Okay, so they'll generally be pretty short?
[04:49] <humphreybc> they should be yep
[04:50] <humphreybc> we probably don't need them so boldly coloured - or coloured at all, looking at that sample book.
[04:51] <humphreybc> we'll have a meeting on saturday to further define and confirm stuff like notes
[04:51] <godbyk> Okay.
[04:51] <humphreybc> which reminds me i need to remind everyone
[04:56]  * humphreybc sends a reminder to everyone about the meeting
[05:03] <functionofxy> humphreybc, I didn't break it then?
[05:03] <humphreybc> Doesn't appear that way no
[05:04] <humphreybc> :)
[05:04] <functionofxy> fascinating. no clue what i did
[05:04] <functionofxy> wouldn't work on my local
[05:04] <functionofxy> thanks!
[05:04] <functionofxy> I have to say, I'm really enjoying my first ubuntu project
[05:04] <functionofxy> I've been using ubuntu (and linux in general) for at least 9-10 years now.
[05:05] <functionofxy> I don't know much about code, so I'm glad to find a niche to which I can contribute
[05:09] <humphreybc> oh really? 10 years? wow
[05:09]  * humphreybc put the agenda up: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
[05:09]  * humphreybc and also added our meeting to the Fridge calender
[05:18] <humphreybc> how does one go about making graphs, like histograms and pie charts in ubuntu?
[05:19] <humphreybc> I'm going to start recording results of the questionnaire and formatting them as easy to read statistics, then I'll put them on the wiki.
[05:21] <humphreybc> godbyk: sorry about the meeting time, it looks like an uncomfortable hour for most of the US
[05:23] <godbyk> np.. I'm usually awake until early morning anyway (5-7 a.m. is when I go to sleep).  I'm a total night owl.
[05:23] <humphreybc> heh well that's okay then
[05:23] <godbyk> I'll be back in a bit.. gonna go grocery shopping (yes, at midnight).
[05:24] <humphreybc> yeah that time seems to suit everywhere except the US... it's afternoon - evening for europe, evening for asia and evening for Australasia
[05:24] <humphreybc> haha oky
[05:24] <godbyk> Darn time zones anyway! :-)
[06:30] <godbyk> back now
[06:40] <wolter> hi humphreybc
[06:40] <wolter> hm
[06:40] <wolter> finally internet here
[07:31] <humphreybc> how's it going?
[07:32] <wolter> humphreybc, hm
[07:32] <wolter> doing some changes here
[07:32] <wolter> if you are free, we could use the gobby app to work on the file together
[07:37] <humphreybc> explain some more?
[07:37] <humphreybc> i'm not doing much
[07:37] <wolter> oh and also, humphreybc, I talked to the guys at #ubuntu-devel and they don't think that synaptic will be removed for 10.04
[07:37] <humphreybc> Yeah I emailed the folks in charge of the software center
[07:37] <wolter> humphreybc, gobby is an application that hosts a file editing session to which other users can connect
[07:37] <humphreybc> it probably won't be removed
[07:37] <wolter> and edit simultaneously the same files
[07:38] <wolter> oh ok
[07:38] <wolter> good then :)
[07:38] <humphreybc> neat, sounds cool. it's in the repos?
[07:38] <wolter> yes
[07:39] <humphreybc> just installing it now
[07:41] <wolter> good :)
[07:41] <humphreybc> okay
[07:41] <humphreybc> how do i work it
[07:42] <wolter> should I host the session?
[07:44] <humphreybc> that would be a good idea :P
[07:46] <wolter> ok
[07:46] <wolter> hit join session
[07:46] <wolter> connect to this -> 186.15.23.131
[07:46] <wolter> port is 7020
[07:47] <wolter> if you have to enter all in one line just enter -> 186.15.23.131:7020
[07:49] <humphreybc> session password?
[07:49] <wolter> manual
[07:50] <humphreybc> neat
[07:50] <wolter> very neat :)
[07:52] <humphreybc> okay now what
[07:52] <humphreybc> subscribe to the file?
[07:52] <wolter> hm.. no
[07:52] <wolter> just, if you want to, read what I have changed
[07:52] <wolter> (everything highlighted in a clear greyish blue
[07:53] <humphreybc> okay cool hold up one sec
[07:54] <humphreybc> so if i change something
[07:54] <humphreybc> you see it?
[07:55] <wolter> yes
[07:55] <wolter> in real time :)
[07:56] <wolter> oh
[07:56] <humphreybc> how do i change my colour
[07:56] <wolter> could you select a clearer color?
[07:56] <humphreybc> haha yea
[07:56] <wolter> in the toolbar
[07:56] <wolter> i think
[07:56] <wolter> no, in user menu
[07:57] <wolter> hm.. i think that i should not define terms, but instead you should let the users know that there is a glossary in the manual
[07:57] <humphreybc> can we chat in gobby?
[07:57] <humphreybc> saves alt tabbing
[07:58] <wolter> ok ok
[07:58] <wolter> do so
[08:38] <dutchie> humphreybc: pong :)
[08:38] <dutchie> it was 04:38
[08:39] <humphreybc> gidday
[08:39] <humphreybc> sorry what did I ping you for?
[08:39] <humphreybc> I've forgotten now
[08:39] <humphreybc> haha
[08:40] <dutchie> looks like that godbyk fellow needed help
[08:41] <dutchie> ahh, I've got the day off today due to more snow, so I could look at automatically building everything
[08:41] <humphreybc> oh righto
[08:41] <humphreybc> yep
[08:41] <humphreybc> he knows a bit about latex
[08:41] <humphreybc> well
[08:41] <humphreybc> a lot by the sounds of it
[08:41] <humphreybc> he'll be a useful addition to the team :)
[08:41] <humphreybc> he's already made changes
[08:41] <humphreybc> have a looksie
[08:43] <dutchie> my fingers are freezing from spending half an hour waiting for a bus that didn't turn up
[08:43] <dutchie> I can barely type
[08:45] <pseudoruprecht> just skimmed through the (alpha?) preliminary version of the manual at http://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/main/development-release/+download/ubuntumanual.pdf
[08:46] <pseudoruprecht> in chapter 9, Wine is mentioned.
[08:46] <pseudoruprecht> but it's presented as WINE, recursive acronym etc.
[08:46] <pseudoruprecht> that is no longer what the project wants to communicate, as says Wine's FAQ as FAQ #1 :)
[08:47] <humphreybc> hi, will fix in a sec, brb
[08:47] <pseudoruprecht> ok
[08:47] <dutchie> also, not sure if it's worth mentioning recursive acronyms
[08:47] <dutchie> I don't think our target users will care what it stands for
[08:47] <pseudoruprecht> their FAQ says 'no'
[08:48] <pseudoruprecht> another question for chapter 9 (while I'm at it)
[08:49] <pseudoruprecht> should it mention the PPAs for packages where PPAs exist, instead of just pointing to the project HP (which in case of Wine points to the PPAs for install, anyways)?
[08:49] <dutchie> it might be worth mentioning ppas in chapter 9 actaully
[08:50] <pseudoruprecht> ok, so there's no "no PPA" rule :)
[08:50] <pseudoruprecht> could have been, because PPAs make it very easy to screw up a system
[08:51] <dutchie> if that's the case, we should mention them and say "be careful"
[08:51] <thorwil> vish: i don't think there is any problem with shading the ubuntu logo. at least as long the basic colors remain recognizable.
[08:51] <pseudoruprecht> i know that this is the policy over at ubuntuusers.de and probably other forums, wiki ... too
[08:54] <dutchie> do you think we need more space between the chapter heading and the title of the first section?
[08:55] <vish> thorwil: From http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy >  "If presented in multiple colours, the logo should only use the “official” logo colours."
[08:58] <thorwil> vish: that doesn't rule out shading. in fact, we already saw different takes of it on the boot screen and that 3d version for GDM
[09:01] <vish> thorwil: hmm... not sure i recall a 3D version.. but thats mention was how *others* can use it... maybe canonical can do with it as they wish..
[09:01] <vish> anyways i'm pretty bad with legality ;)
[09:02] <humphreybc> hi
[09:02] <humphreybc> let me answer some things
[09:02] <vish> o/
[09:02] <humphreybc> the black and white boot screen and 3D version was made by canonical, so they can do what they like
[09:02] <humphreybc> I'll find out some more about shading
[09:02] <humphreybc> dutchie: yes we do, godbyk changed it but I asked him to change it back ie more space there
[09:03] <humphreybc> pseudoruprecht: What should wine be referred to then?
[09:03] <godbyk> humphreybc: oh, yeah, I can do that real quick.
[09:03] <humphreybc> okay there you go
[09:03] <humphreybc> dutchie, godbyk, godbyk, dutchie
[09:04] <godbyk> hey, dutchie!
[09:04] <humphreybc> you guys + jmburgess are practically our latex guys :)
[09:04] <pseudoruprecht> 'Wine'; see the FAQ at http://wiki.winehq.org/FAQ#head-8b4fbbe473bd0d51d936bcf298f5b7f0e8d25f2e
[09:04] <dutchie> hi godbyk
[09:05] <humphreybc> okay cool, Wine it will become
[09:05] <vish> thorwil: infact the Ubuntu logo change i did in humanity , i had to consult kwwi and mat_t before changing it in the Ubuntu version :(
[09:06] <pseudoruprecht> humphreybc: great
[09:06] <godbyk> humphreybc: it looks like the space after the chapter heading was only 0.5mm.. is that correct?
[09:06] <vish> thorwil: only after they said , ok. i uploaded the change
[09:08] <thorwil> vish: you are technically right that they can do whatever with it and that it doesn't translate to us directly. it's just that we already have lots of variations and not allowing custom shading is damn silly. sheesh, the canonical guys themselves screwed up regarding the relative size of the elements of the CoF in cases
[09:09] <vish> thorwil: i agree ;)
[09:10] <humphreybc> http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
[09:10] <humphreybc> look at the very bottom of the page
[09:10] <godbyk> I added a line's worth of space after the chapter headings and pushed the changes.  See if that looks better.
[09:11] <humphreybc> going from that, turning it 3D and adding some shading should be okay if the original colours and proportions are kept.
[09:11] <humphreybc> "you'd need to get trademark approval if you change the logo in any way"
[09:11] <popey> morning all
[09:11] <wolter> I should go to sleep now
[09:11] <thorwil> but: You may use transparency and gradient/depth tools but should retain the “official” colours.
[09:11] <wolter> hey humphreybc i will save and push the copy of the chapter
[09:12] <humphreybc> wolter, cool
[09:12] <wolter> you can just close and read later, thanks for the session :)
[09:12] <popey> it is okay to change the logo
[09:12] <popey> i would just run it past the trademarks people before using it as your official logo
[09:13] <vish> thorwil: if we didnt want to make the manual official then none of this matters , but when it is being pushed we need to just double check..[as popey mentions]
[09:13] <humphreybc> popey: it's not official or anything, just on one of the many title page proposals we've got.
[09:13] <popey> sure, but at some point you're going to choose one, surely?
[09:13] <humphreybc> of course
[09:13] <humphreybc> there is no rush :)
[09:14] <humphreybc> and as far as I can tell, only one title page proposal has changed the logo
[09:14] <popey> well..
[09:14] <popey> the trademarks people don't always reply quickly
[09:14] <popey> so make a decision, and then run it past them
[09:14] <humphreybc> I think we will be using the regular ubuntu logo
[09:14] <popey> that certainly makes it easier
[09:14] <humphreybc> indeed
[09:15] <popey> although still worth contacting them even if you use the standard logo
[09:15] <humphreybc> vish do you want to email David Nel and just say that it would be preferable to use the stock logo
[09:15] <humphreybc> popey: thanks for the advice - I'll hunt them down :)
[09:16] <popey> trademarks@canonical.com iirc
[09:16] <popey> let me confirm that
[09:16] <vish> humphreybc: didnt i already do that? why another mail?
[09:16] <humphreybc> okay I can do it, I just want to tell him that we would prefer the stock logo
[09:16] <popey> ah, trademarks@ubuntu.com <- thats the address
[09:16] <humphreybc> okay neat I'll email them now :)
[09:16] <humphreybc> thanks popey
[09:16] <popey> np
[09:16] <thorwil> i still think David's take falls within "You may use transparency and gradient/depth tools but should retain the 'official' colours."
[09:17] <popey> i agree thorwil but it's always a good idea to confirm it
[09:17] <popey> because if you don't they _can_ ask you to stop using it
[09:17] <thorwil> also agreed :)
[09:17] <popey> and you dont want that :)
[09:18] <thorwil> David's paw design is stronger, anyway ^^
[09:18] <humphreybc> heh yep
[09:18] <vish> yeah
[09:18] <humphreybc> thorwil: feedback on the wiki feedback on the wiki!
[09:18] <humphreybc> :P
[09:19] <humphreybc> now that there are more people here - does anyone know what I can use to create some graphs, probably histograms and pie charts from some data in ubuntu?
[09:19] <dutchie> humphreybc: OO.o spreadsheets are probably easiest
[09:19] <humphreybc> (I'm going to collate the responses from the questionnaire and stick them on the wiki in chart form)
[09:20] <dutchie> do we know how we're going to get these (awesome) title pages into the actual manual yet?
[09:20] <humphreybc> It should give us some indication on where we should focus priorities, and what the community wants :)
[09:20] <humphreybc> godbyk: ping re: dutchie above
[09:20] <humphreybc> godbyk has an idea i think
[09:21] <godbyk> dutchie: that's pretty easy.  we can use \includegraphics to pull in a jpg, png, pdf, etc.
[09:21] <thorwil> one way would be to export to pdf from inkscape and then use a commandline tool to stich 2 PDFs together
[09:21] <godbyk> thorwil: that'd work.  LaTeX can also pull the pdf in directly.
[09:21] <humphreybc> whatever saves us the most file size...
[09:22] <dutchie> yeah, I'm just thinking "translations" too
[09:22] <thorwil> godbyk: even better. than only something to take care of the html version would be needed
[09:22] <godbyk> thorwil: for that we can look at pandoc or tex4ht.
[09:22] <humphreybc> well obviously when we choose a title page, we'll need to refine it some more - and then we'll have to go about the task of hunting down people to translate it into their native langauge
[09:23] <thorwil> cover page translations might require layout work
[09:23] <godbyk> once we've selected a title page, we can incorporate some of those design elements in the interior of the book, as well.
[09:23] <humphreybc> howcome brishu left the project?
[09:24] <vish> humphreybc: too many emails? ;p
[09:24] <humphreybc> I wouldn't be surprised. That's probably my fault :P
[09:24] <humphreybc> Seriously, if you aren't on gmail then you're practically screwed in this project!
[09:27] <thorwil> i'm not on gmail and don't fell screwed ^^
[09:27] <humphreybc> haha
[09:27] <humphreybc> well don't be surprised if you get a "running low on free space" notification xD
[09:27]  * humphreybc 125 members on the team now!
[09:28] <humphreybc> hey dutchie how's work on that bot going?
[09:28] <humphreybc> manuel :P
[09:28] <thorwil> pah, if i receive 200 mails a day without this, or 300 with ... doesn't really matter
[09:29] <humphreybc> lol
[09:29] <humphreybc> you get 200 non-project emails a day??!
[09:29] <humphreybc> you must be very popular
[09:31] <dutchie> humphreybc: I've got a lot of stuff on, the bot isn't that high on the list :)
[09:31] <humphreybc> heh no worries
[09:32] <humphreybc> so, who's taking bets... I bet we'll have 400 members by lucid
[09:34] <vish> humphreybc: manual is nothing... try being a part of papercutters ;)
[09:35]  * vish has only one folder for manual... 4 for papercuts :D
[09:36] <humphreybc> ha
[09:41]  * humphreybc is painstakingly analyzing the results from the questionnaire
[09:59] <humphreybc> stats are going to be interesting
[10:01] <humphreybc> okay now have to learn how to work spreadsheet
[10:16] <humphreybc> anyone know how I can turn spreadsheet graphs and charts into images?
[10:17] <jaminday1> Argh having pidgin issues
[10:17] <jaminday1> now im in here twice!
[10:17] <humphreybc> ah
[10:18] <humphreybc> yes that bug
[10:18] <dutchie> irssi is the one true IRC client :)
[10:18] <humphreybc> what you need to do is go to accounts and choose to disable your IRC account
[10:18] <humphreybc> then enable it again
[10:18] <humphreybc> basically if pidgin closes unexpectedly then somehow it won't tell IRC you've gone or something
[10:18] <humphreybc> so when you go to start up again it thinks your username is already registered, so it gives you something +1 at the end
[10:19] <humphreybc> anyway charts export to png?
[10:20] <jaminday1> ah ok - i'll give it a try now
[10:20] <jaminday1> oh hang on no need - it quit for me
[10:21] <jaminday1> and sorry - no idea about the charts thing
[10:21] <humphreybc> nvm found a way
[10:22] <jaminday1> wow a lot has changed in the lp branch since i last checked
[10:23] <dutchie> is that my massive reorganisation?
[10:23] <jaminday1> yep - good work
[10:29]  * humphreybc would like to let everyone know that my statistical analysis is going to ROCK
[10:47] <humphreybc> take a look at what I have so far team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/survey
[10:51] <humphreybc> what does everyone think?
[10:51] <jaminday1> taking a look now...
[10:54] <jaminday1> wow - impressive graphs! hehe
[10:55] <jaminday1> but some interesting results - i was a little surprised at openoffice at first
[10:55] <humphreybc> mmhmm, but it makes sense when you think about it
[10:55] <humphreybc> openoffice has many apps
[10:56] <jaminday1> yeah i realised it's a big hurdle for a lot of people, leaving msoffice
[10:56] <jaminday1> i actually think msoffice is one of the few things ms does really well
[10:58] <jaminday1> everyone seems pretty keen to have it available by default
[10:58] <jaminday1> how many responses overall?
[10:58] <dutchie> which is why MS won't install it by default
[10:59] <jaminday1> dutchie: yes true
[10:59] <jaminday1> hehe but i was referring to the manual available on default install of lucid ;-)
[11:11]  * humphreybc added "notable responses" to each question on the survey page
[11:33]  * humphreybc renamed ubuntu-manual/survey to ubuntu-manual/Research, added both the Research page and the Style Guide to the main title bar
[11:49] <thorwil> humphreybc: what's up with question 4? "Most people answered no", but biggest slice is Yes?
[11:49] <humphreybc> refresh the page ;)
[11:49] <humphreybc> I got the charts mixed upo
[11:50] <humphreybc> I think I fixed it
[11:52] <thorwil> ah yes, sorry. still was on "survey" ;)
[12:09]  * dutchie goes back to the automation of building
[12:10] <dutchie> are we going to do it on A4, letter or both?
[12:11] <popey> heh, fine question!
[12:12] <dutchie> why can't the americans just be the same as everyone else? :(
[12:19] <humphreybc> dutchie: we were actually thinking of changing the page size to accommodate each language :P
[12:19] <dutchie> oh god
[12:20] <dutchie> is that deliberately to make it as hard as possibly
[12:20] <dutchie> possible*
[12:20] <humphreybc> so the english US version would be US Letter
[12:20] <humphreybc> English UK would be A4
[12:20] <humphreybc> etc etc
[12:20] <humphreybc> most of the world use A4 I believe
[12:20]  * humphreybc changes the colour of the wiki menu bar to a groovy pastel yello
[12:20] <humphreybc> hahaha
[12:20] <humphreybc> well godbyk didn't seem to think it was that hard
[12:21] <dutchie> I wonder how godbyk intended to do it
[12:21] <humphreybc> hehehe
[12:21] <godbyk> dutchie: Well, the paper size is set using the gometry package.
[12:21] <godbyk> So it's a matter of changing from \usepackage[letter]{geometry} to \usepackage[a4paper]{geometry}
[12:22] <dutchie> yeah, I realise that's pretty easy to do
[12:22] <dutchie> I was thinking about automating it
[12:22] <humphreybc> dutchie has a thing with automation I think
[12:22] <humphreybc> what with the bot and all...
[12:22] <humphreybc> :P
[12:22] <dutchie> so 'make LANG=en_GB SIZE=a4' would just work
[12:22] <dutchie> humphreybc: what can I say, I'm lazy...
[12:22] <humphreybc> hahaha
[12:23] <humphreybc> fair enough - lazy people are smart people.
[12:23] <dutchie> no, smart people are lazy people ;)
[12:23] <dutchie> different thing entirely
[12:23] <humphreybc> you have a good point
[12:23] <godbyk> automation is nice.
[12:24]  * humphreybc just remembered godbyk asked me to pull the revision and check out spacing
[12:24]  * humphreybc got sidetracked with statistics.. how sad.
[12:24] <godbyk> I don't know how the translation (.po files) will work in the end.  We may be able to handle the paper size using those.  (So the paper size is language-dependent.)
[12:24] <dutchie> hmm, my root partition is 96% full, 270M left
[12:24] <godbyk> Failing that, we can set the paper size via the makefile.
[12:24] <godbyk> There are a number of tricks we can employ.
[12:24] <godbyk> We'll just pick the easiest. :-)
[12:25] <humphreybc> dutchie you must have a heck of a lot of apps installed, or you set a way too small root partition size...
[12:25] <humphreybc> also godbyk, what is your estimate on final PDF file size once we have images and full content, glossary/index/credits and all that?
[12:27] <thorwil> "By 1975 so many countries were using the German system that it was established as an ISO standard, as well as the official United Nations document format. By 1977 A4 was the standard letter format in 88 of 148 countries. Today the standard has been adopted by all countries in the world except the United States and Canada. In Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile and the Philippines the US letter format is still in common use,
[12:27] <thorwil>  despite their official adoption of the ISO standard."
[12:28] <humphreybc> is it just me, or have fonts and colours undergone a slight change?
[12:28] <godbyk> humphreybc: It's impossible to say until we know more about the images.
[12:28] <humphreybc> hmm. a very rough estimate?
[12:29] <godbyk> humphreybc: Sorry.. not unless you can estimate the size of the images.
[12:29] <godbyk> humphreybc: I haven't changed the fonts or colors (yet).
[12:29] <humphreybc> righto
[12:32] <godbyk> I just uploaded code to handle terminal input/output displays in the manual and documented it on the style guide: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide
[12:33] <godbyk> Do you think that will cover the scenarios you had in mind?
[12:34] <humphreybc> just read it
[12:34] <humphreybc> I think that sounds great
[12:35] <humphreybc> have you got an example in the branch where it's used?
[12:35] <godbyk> Not at the moment.  I didn't want to edit anyone's chapter files if they were in the midst of working on them.
[12:35] <godbyk> Are there any dormant chapters that have terminal output I can edit safely?
[12:36] <humphreybc> no worries. Wolter isn't editing software-packaging at the moment, he's asleep.
[12:36] <humphreybc> I think there are some terminal things in there
[12:37] <godbyk> Looks like there are a couple. I'll edit those real quick.
[12:38]  * dutchie uninstalls 280M of packages
[12:41] <dutchie> wow, about 200M worth of packages cached too
[12:42] <godbyk> humphreybc: I can't push the changes because it says you have the repository locked.
[12:46] <humphreybc> bzr or wiki?
[12:47] <godbyk> bzr
[12:47] <humphreybc> how? I don't even know you can lock them
[12:47] <godbyk> Unable to obtain lock lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock
[12:47] <godbyk> held by humphreybc@bazaar.launchpad.net on host crowberry [process #14534]
[12:47] <godbyk> locked 15 minutes, 31 seconds ago
[12:47] <godbyk> no clue.  I haven't done much with bzr.
[12:47] <humphreybc> random
[12:48] <humphreybc> i'll close down everything hang on
[12:48] <godbyk> 'kay.
[12:48] <humphreybc> okay well i've got nothing open except pidgin
[12:48] <godbyk> I can also break the lock, apparently.
[12:48] <godbyk> If you're sure that it's not being modified, use bzr break-lock lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock
[12:48] <godbyk> I'll try it again
[12:48] <humphreybc> try again, otherwise i'll push it again
[12:48] <humphreybc> oh wait
[12:48] <humphreybc> hang on
[12:48] <godbyk> still no go.
[12:49] <humphreybc> i get it too:
[12:49] <humphreybc> benjamin@benjamin-laptop:~/Manual/ubuntu-manual$ bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual
[12:49] <humphreybc> Unable to obtain lock lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock
[12:49] <humphreybc> held by humphreybc@bazaar.launchpad.net on host crowberry [process #14534]
[12:49] <humphreybc> locked 18 minutes, 20 seconds ago
[12:49] <humphreybc> Will continue to try until 12:49:21, unless you press Ctrl-C
[12:49] <humphreybc> If you're sure that it's not being modified, use bzr break-lock lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock
[12:49] <humphreybc> bzr: ERROR: Could not acquire lock "(remote lock)":
[12:50] <humphreybc> I thought i may have committed but not pushed, but that wasn't the case
[12:51] <godbyk> is there an instance of bzr running someplace?  (try: ps aux | grep bzr)
[12:51] <godbyk> if not, I guess we can break the lock and see what blows up..
[12:53] <humphreybc> benjamin@benjamin-laptop:~$ ps aux | grep bzr
[12:53] <humphreybc> benjamin  9379  0.0  0.0   7336   888 pts/0    S+   01:52   0:00 grep bzr
[12:53] <humphreybc> I think when I committed revision 90 at some point something went wrong
[12:54] <humphreybc> try to break the lock, see what happens
[12:54] <humphreybc> I didn't make any big changes
[12:54] <humphreybc> it was only changing "WINE" to "Wine" lol
[12:54] <godbyk> Okay, I'll try.
[12:55] <godbyk> lol.. thanks, bzr!  bzr: ERROR: Unsupported protocol for url "lp-64843088:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock"
[12:55] <humphreybc> yeah I got that too...
[12:55] <humphreybc> I tried about 5 mins ago to break it
[12:55] <humphreybc> hmm
[12:55] <humphreybc> popey, ping!
[12:56] <godbyk> bzr break-lock lp:///~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock   worked
[12:56] <humphreybc> oh okay
[12:56] <humphreybc> odd
[12:57]  * humphreybc googles bzr lock
[12:57] <humphreybc> heh https://launchpad.net/bugs/250451
[12:57] <manualbot> Launchpad bug 250451 in bzr "bzr suggests wrong URL for break-lock for smart-server branches" [High,Confirmed]
[12:57] <godbyk> okay, so I just pushed an update to the software and packages chapter so it uses the terminal environment.  you can see how it looks on page 14.
[12:57] <godbyk> humphreybc: lovely!
[12:59]  * humphreybc looks
[12:59] <humphreybc> cute: Using saved parent location: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/
[12:59] <humphreybc> bzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged. Use the missing command to see how.
[12:59] <humphreybc> Use the merge command to reconcile them.
[12:59] <humphreybc> benjamin@benjamin-laptop:~/Manual/ubuntu-manual$
[13:00] <humphreybc> i'll just merge them
[13:00] <godbyk> should be a simple merge.
[13:00] <humphreybc> yup
[13:01] <humphreybc> neat looks good
[13:02] <godbyk> Oh, I guess I also changed the monospaced typeface to Bera Mono instead of Computer Modern typewriter.
[13:04] <humphreybc> cool i fixed up that merge so now we're in business again
[13:05] <humphreybc> LOL look at the last three branch revisions: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main
[13:05] <humphreybc> Wine is just so important it gets three revisions in under an hour
[13:10] <godbyk> lol.. nice!
[13:10] <popey> humphreybc: pong
[13:10] <dutchie> humphreybc: you should probably mention the appdb in your wine section
[13:11] <humphreybc> hey popey, sorry for pinging you! we had a problem with bzr lock but it's all fixed now
[13:11] <humphreybc> do you know what bzr locks are? i'm curious...
[13:11] <popey> heh
[13:11] <popey> i am a bzr newb
[13:11] <dutchie> git \o/
[13:11] <humphreybc> dutchie: Heh well it's note really my chapter anymore, someone else is assigned to it.
[13:11] <humphreybc> not* really
[13:14] <godbyk> For the menu navigation stuff, does the following seem like sensible code to type?  Would you use different \commandnames?
[13:14] <godbyk> To initiate the self-destruct sequence, \nav{Menu \then Submenu \then Submenu}, then click OK.
[13:14] <humphreybc> how would that look? the command name seem logical to me
[13:14] <humphreybc> although perhaps without a capital first letter?
[13:14] <godbyk> we can make it look however we like.
[13:15] <humphreybc> what's the LaTeX general rule with capitals in commands?
[13:15] <godbyk> At the moment, I have it set to look like: Menu --> Submenu --> Subsubmenu.
[13:15] <godbyk> Well, that's an interesting question.  There are some guidelines, but they're never really followed.
[13:15] <godbyk> In general, user commands (like what authors would use) are supposed to be all-lowercase.
[13:15] <humphreybc> considering that \section and \chapter and \textbf etc are all lowercase
[13:16] <humphreybc> we should probably stick to convention that's already established
[13:18] <humphreybc> in other news, Haiti got it pretty bad :\
[13:20] <humphreybc> hmm... 2:20am... perhaps i should get some sleep
[13:25] <humphreybc> right, night all
[13:25] <humphreybc> talk to you some point tomorrow, well, today :)
[13:26] <godbyk> I'm heading to bed, too.
[13:26] <godbyk> I just committed the \nav macro and updated the software and packages chapter to use it.
[13:26] <humphreybc> awesome
[13:26] <godbyk> (see the bottom of page 14 for an example.)
[13:26] <humphreybc> talk to you guys later, night
[13:26] <godbyk> we can pick different arrows or separators later, of course.
[13:27] <godbyk> I'm just trying to get the macros built so the authors can start using them.
[13:27] <godbyk> humphreybc: goodnight.
[13:27] <humphreybc> fair enough :)
[13:43]  * dutchie mumbles something about 78-character lines
[18:07] <wolter> hi
[18:07] <wolter> I just saw the new guys cover proposals, the one with a black laptop and some objects floating around
[18:07] <wolter> are you here?
[18:07] <wolter> kolor guild
[18:13] <vish> wolter: he's here.. but just doesnt like you ;p
[18:13] <wolter> thats what i thought...
[18:13] <wolter> lol whats his nick?
[18:13] <vish> j/k... i dont know :)
[18:13] <wolter> oh... you got me there >8(
[18:14] <wolter> hey dutchie or jmburgess, are you guys here?
[18:14] <dutchie> o/
[18:14] <wolter> Why don't we use the DejaVu fonts in the manual?
[18:14] <dutchie> pass
[18:14] <wolter> As they're free/open source (i think)
[18:15] <dutchie> they're not the only free fonts
[18:15] <wolter> which is the red serif font the manual is usinh?
[18:15] <wolter> well, i guess you don't like how they look then
[18:16] <dutchie> I didn't choose them, I think jmburgess did
[18:16] <wolter> oh
[18:16] <wolter> and I guess he's not here right now
[18:16] <wolter> dutchie, but you don't know the names?
[18:16] <dutchie> I'm just looking
[18:16] <dutchie> Bera Mono
[18:17] <dutchie> "Bera Mono is a version of Bitstream Vera Mono slightly enhanced for use with TeX."
[18:17] <wolter> hm... that sounds like a monospace font?
[18:18] <dutchie> http://www.tug.dk/FontCatalogue/beramono/
[18:18] <dutchie> does it look monospace? ;)
[18:18] <wolter> yeah thats not the red serif font hehe
[18:18] <wolter> haha
[18:18] <dutchie> oh, that one
[18:19] <dutchie> that's the latex default one, don't know what it's called
[18:20] <dutchie> Helvetica
[18:20] <dutchie> no, forget that
[18:24] <wolter> ok
[18:26] <wolter> hm.. it isn't freeserif
[18:26] <wolter> anyway, no problem
[19:10] <godbyk> wolter: The serif font is Computer Modern.
[19:10] <godbyk> The sans serif font is Helvetica (of sorts).
[19:11] <godbyk> And the monospaced font is Bera Mono (which is effectively Bitstream Vera Mono).
[19:11] <wolter> oh ok
[19:12] <wolter> thanks godbyk
[19:17] <godbyk> Are the fonts set to what people want them to be (or am I allowed to play with those, too)?
[20:24] <godbyk> I've added an index to the manual.
[20:24] <godbyk> And if you use the new \application command (like \application{Synaptic}), it will set the name of the application in bold (per the style guide) and add it to the index automatically.
[20:26] <dutchie> nice
[20:26]  * dutchie likes semantic markup
[20:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> http://questionpro.com/t/ADd2yZGu50
[20:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> i've created an online survey for our research phase
[20:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> please review for completeness etc. do not spread the link until about 2009-01-14 around 0500 UTC: I will wipe all responses at that point so that we have a clean database, and then we can spread the link around
[22:25] <functionofxy> hey. Quick question. Having trouble running make
[22:25] <godbyk> functionofxy: what errors are you getting?
[22:25] <functionofxy> If I branch, make, wait a while, pull a new revision and then try to make again, it fails
[22:25] <functionofxy> does this mean I need to branch again
[22:26] <dutchie> shouldn't do
[22:26] <dutchie> can you give the make error?
[22:26] <functionofxy> I've had this problem several times now.
[22:26] <functionofxy> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/d23170583
[22:27] <godbyk> functionofxy: Ah, you don't have the beramono package installed.
[22:27] <godbyk> Let me see what deb it's in.
[22:27] <dutchie> you need the texlive-fonts-extra package
[22:27] <functionofxy> thanks
[22:27] <godbyk> dutchie: that was fast!
[22:27] <dutchie> dpkg -S ftw
[22:28] <functionofxy> big d/l--it's going to take a few minutes
[22:28] <dutchie> it is quite big
[22:29] <godbyk> I have texlive-full installed, so I don't normally have to worry about missing packages.  But you'll want to wait and do that if you have time to let it download and install.  The full TeX Live installation is huge.
[22:29] <godbyk> (They ship it on a DVD.)
[22:59] <dutchie> ping popey
[23:30] <sebsebseb> Hi