[01:37] Is it just me, or is epiphany really difficult to work with? [01:45] also, has anyone been able to use the Software Center sucessfully? [01:53] I havze, on karmic.. [01:54] yeah, I have had success with it on Karmic, but not Lucid yet [01:55] heh, did anybody notice that the language pack for firefox isn't compatible with 3.5.7? [01:56] WeatherGod: What isn't working for you re: Software Centre? It looks like it's working fine here. [01:56] Well, I tried "Use this source" for the adobe plugin, and it crashes [01:57] a few days ago, I tried some other packages, and it crashed as well [01:58] heck, just tried installing AdBlock right now and got some errors [01:59] plus, from a usability perspective, "Update Now" is different from "Install Now" [01:59] I'm obviously looking at an entirely different Software Centre [02:00] note, i am working off of a LiveCD version of UNR on my USB stick [02:00] UNR may well be different. [02:00] Ubuntu Software Center 1.1.7 [02:01] I hope not, that would be a support nightmare [02:03] Ah, OK. I've just found what you're talking about. [02:03] so, does it say "Update Now" for you? [02:05] I just need to wait for aptitude to release the dpkg lock firsh... [02:05] first. [02:06] looks like there is a brand-new 1.1.8, but the change log doesn't say anything about my issues, I don't think [02:18] huh, interesting... [02:18] I used Aptitude to refresh the package list [02:18] but not to update or install anything [02:19] then went back to Software Center and now it says "Install" and "Website" [02:21] heh, and now apport won't let me do any auto reporting [02:38] howdy all [02:39] been rather quiet around here [02:39] howdy [02:40] no good [02:41] i was just looking for some opinions, anyone here running lucid on a netbook? [02:41] yuppers [02:41] i'm in need of a new mobile and wondering about going to a netbook over another laptop [02:41] got an Eee right here [02:41] the new eee? [02:41] 1201 or whatever they are [02:41] or the old one? 1000? [02:41] 1000 [02:41] with solidstate drive [02:42] personally, I think 12 inches is really not a netbook any more [02:43] I got plenty of opinions, what's your question [02:44] 12" is big enough to accomodate a ThinkPad, which is what you should have at that size :{ [02:44] :) [02:45] well im wondering if i should spend the $500 on the new eee or go with a $500 laptop [02:45] I love 10 inches because it is still a good sized keyboard, and yet I can still throw it into a backpack [02:45] matters by your usage pattern? [02:46] for example, I have no need for cdrom drives [02:46] I also have other computers for more intensive work [02:46] i guess you can get by with a decent sized usb stick eh [02:46] yeah i have a powerful desktop at home [02:46] yeah, I am running Lucid off an 8GB one right now [02:46] just need something for when im away [02:47] the solid state drive is great for letting me be a little rough on it [02:47] and the power brick is tiny [02:47] and is light as hell [02:48] I haven't seen the 12 inch ones, I can only vouch for 10 inch model [02:49] hmm [02:49] so, if you need something for travel or such (I take classes), it is very nice [02:50] downside would be poor graphics card [02:50] so flash stutters [02:50] i just can't justify spending the same for an eee when i can get more power and larger screen from a notebook [02:51] yeah, i watch lots of adult flash videos :P so that's no good [02:51] well, in mplayer, they work fine [02:51] just not in firefox [02:51] it is the unoptimized flash plugin that is the culprit [02:52] consider this... [02:52] I was packing for a conference last year [02:52] I had my suitcase stuffed [02:52] and my backpack was fairly full [02:52] then I was still able to add my laptop and its brick [02:53] hmm [02:53] meanwhile, my roommate still had to pack up his carrying case for his laptop [02:53] along with a suitcase and backpack [02:53] i work on an oil rig, so i pack for a month, suitcase, smaller suitcase for my 23" montior/x360, and hockey bag full of rig clothes, so i'm used to packing a bunch [02:54] most laptops would be a whole other bag [02:54] this you can just throw into an existing bag [02:54] probably the biggest advantage is the solid state drive [02:55] actually, it uses two, one onboard non-volitile flash and another 32GB ssd [02:56] I keep the swap and OS on the onboard flash and /home on the ssd [02:56] what is ubuntu like on your 1xxx series eee? [02:57] im definitely not familiar with any mobile chipsets/cpu's [02:57] ie the atoms [02:57] haven't officially timed it, but it boots very quickly [02:57] and programs respond just fine [02:58] I use it for my word processing and even some programming (I do scientific research) [02:58] hmmm ic eee's have a few new series now, 1201 and the t91's [02:58] and web browsing [02:58] t91 is $589 for the 32gb ssd [02:58] t91 is multi-touch though, might not need that [02:58] is t91 the touchscreen one? [02:58] yeah [02:59] yeah, last I heard, it is more designed to be a touchscreen "station" [02:59] like having a computer on your wall [02:59] tried to install nvidia using the 'restricted drivers' gui - 'error: see /var/log/jockey.log which ends with ERROR: update-alternatives: warning: skip creation of /usr/share/man/man1/nvidia-smi.1.gz because associated file /usr/share/man/man1/alt-nvidia-96-smi.1.gz (of link group gl_conf) doesn't exist. [03:00] the 1201 doesn't even have the ssd option from my local store [03:00] sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-nouveau gives me xserver-xorg-video-nouveau: Depends: xserver-xorg-core (>= 2:1.6.2) but it is not going to be installed [03:00] any ides how I can get either driver installed? [03:01] david_, not surprised, Asus really has fallen behind on promoting it [03:01] brb [03:01] hmm [03:01] and should I report those, or are they going to be automatically detected ? [03:01] i guess the nividia one need to be reported [03:05] CarlFK, yeah, I would report them [03:05] at the least mention it over at ubuntu-bugs to see if someone there knows anything about it [03:05] just started that [03:06] david_, Asus really hit the sweet spot with the 1000 and 901 computers with solid state and Linux [03:07] however... and this is just rumor, MS then threatened to raise their price for Windows for Asus's other computers unless they backed off on their Linux line and the solid state drives [03:08] their support has also languished [03:08] I certainly wouldn't be paying $500 for a netbook [03:09] I would be looking for a 1000 somewhere for cheapp [03:09] notebook it is haha [03:10] with Ubuntu, of course, right? [03:10] :P [03:11] any of those have firewire? [03:11] my Eee does not have firewire [03:12] I do not think any of them do [03:12] I need low end portable with firewire [03:12] yeah, I haven't seen it [03:12] isn't Apple also dropping firewire? [03:12] low end is at odds with firewire [03:12] kinda [03:13] but there is still a ton of video equipment that uses it [03:13] No eSATA OR ExpressCard.... phail. [03:13] no EC?! [03:13] On Apple's newest laptops. [03:13] Sorry, picked up on one part of whatever that conversation was. [03:13] dang. [03:14] Only the 17" still has it. [03:14] I haven't figured out if there is a usb thing that is as standard as dv over firewire [03:14] I don't think so [03:14] bleck [03:14] firewire is really suited for those sort of tasks [03:14] I know most consumer cam corders now have usb [03:14] USB is good for other things [03:15] and no firewire. hit a local big box electroinics store (Frys) and only about 4 in 20 had firewire [03:15] heh, go figure... [03:15] 4 did, the rest didn't. 20 seems low [03:16] I guess it is proof that the market doesn't necessarially pick the best technologies [03:16] http://pastebin.com/f2c0c1d02 [03:16] WeatherGod, necessarily? when does it almost ever? [03:16] 16:9 panels are crap that's being foisted on everyone by the LCD manufacturers. [03:17] They call it an upgrade... well, when my current laptop has 1920x1200, and any successor would have 1920x1080... that's losing 120 lines of pixels. [03:17] agreed! [03:17] heh [03:18] haven't shopped for moniitors in a while [03:18] I travel with a laptop all the time. what would be the point in having a monitor? LOL Instead, I have an adapter so that I can use the hotel's TV :) [03:18] 1920x1200 gives room for a taskbar while watching a 1080i movie. [03:19] 1920x1080 screen? You're screwed. [03:19] s/1080i/1080/ [03:19] oh, and nvidia fail. [03:19] adobe fail [03:19] http://pastebin.com/f18399dc6 [03:19] nvidia fail. [03:19] DanaG, nvidia works quite well for me. [03:19] Legacy? [03:19] Better than ATI or Intel. [03:19] No, modern. [03:20] This nvidia is a legacy one. [03:20] My next laptop will probably be a W-series thinkpad. [03:20] And all the nvidia driver is capable of doing... is segfaulting. [03:20] NoelJB: consider the EliteBook series -- I have the current generation 8530w (with ATI by my own choice), and it's really nice. [03:20] DanaG, i thought we discussed this last night [03:21] Last night it wasn't even installing. =þ [03:21] DanaG, consider the neuvou drivers? [03:21] yeah, nouveau works, but it tramples all over the bios bootsplash. [03:21] do not expect anything from the nvidia legacy drivers now or ever [03:21] really? [03:21] HP? No thanks. Nor Dell. [03:22] I've heard that newer thinkpads have actually declined in quality. [03:22] http://hpfansite.com/hp-elitebook/hp-elitebook-8440w-review/ [03:22] I'll end up seeing the "restarting system..." message stuck on the screen all the way until Xorg starts again. [03:22] DanaG, Have you tried Fedora? I'm not tracking nouveau, but I understand that during this part of development, Ubuntu's is rather different and poor compared to whatever Fedora is shipping for that code. [03:23] That nvidia system is a spare one, anyway. [03:23] My "real" system is the one with ATI. [03:23] then why bother with it [03:23] I'll admit, fglrx does suck... but the open-source drivers are getting better. [03:23] I can see from the keyboard that it is missing a trackpoint. If I were willing to buy hardware without a trackpoint, I'd own a Mac. [03:23] no, it DOES have a stick. [03:24] It's black on black. [03:24] thanks, I see it now., [03:24] oh, and that's a 14" with a Quadro. [03:24] 15" one will have USB 3.0. [03:25] DanaG, does fprint support that reader? [03:25] Probably not... at least, not the one in my current EliteBook. [03:25] AES2810. [03:25] I've switched, for lucid, from thinkfinger to fprint. It is working, but has the same quirks that it does on Fedora. [03:25] Unfortunately, many new laptops have the same, unsupported reader. [03:25] Hopefully it will be supported by the time I get one. [03:26] I'm considering getting myself an extra fingerprint board (I broke the ribbon on mine), and donating to the fprint project. [03:26] ribbon cable was soldered directly to the PCB... no cable connector. === dmb__ is now known as dmb [03:28] now, can anyone tell me what GPU the Quadro FX 880M and 1800M actually are? [03:29] I'm wondering if we'd see much difference between the FX2700M and FX3700M with Ubuntu. Will our drivers leverage the difference? [03:34] hmm, it seems like the nvidia glx library symlinks are missing. [03:34] they're created by jockey [03:34] that isn't in the mix yet [03:34] it is coming [03:34] Not in the nvidia-96 package? [03:36] hmm, so if I want to create them manually... where should they point? [03:36] jockey enables the alternatives to take effect instead of the ones already in the system [03:37] the command is in the rules file [03:37] two commands [03:37] sudo update-alternatives --config gl_ gives only gl_conf [03:37] update-alternatives: error: no alternatives for gl_libraries. [03:38] hmm, do you have those commands on hand? [03:39] /usr/lib/libGLEW.so.1.5 -> libGLEW.so.1.5.1 /usr/lib/libGLEW.so.1.5.1 /usr/lib/libGL.so -> mesa/libGL.so /usr/lib/libGLU.a -> mesa/libGLU.a /usr/lib/libGLU.so -> mesa/libGLU.so [03:40] the glew stuff is unrelated, BTW [03:40] I also hope fglrx will get the same alternatives. [03:40] even though I need to upload 1.5.2 after A2 is released [03:41] Looks like weird things are going on with the nvidia packaging. [03:41] Or new, at least. [03:41] everything including fglrx will have to be changed to use alternatives to accommodate the nvidia blob [03:42] I hope Canonical is working with ATI to do that. [03:42] because the blob replaces mesa, we can't have it overwriting mesa's libs [03:42] It'll be nice then, though... switching fglrx<->radeon will be just an alernatives-change away. [03:43] yeah, that would actually help prevent a lot of bug reports [03:43] well, i'm not sure. those drivers do not replace mesa [03:43] fglrx does replace some GL libs of some sort. [03:43] It just replaces less than nvidia does. [03:43] there have been several where people tried switching back and the opengl files were still the ones that nvidia put in [03:44] yes, that's the issue they're trying to prevent [03:44] At least fglrx from ATI's own site has a buildpkg thingy -- it'd be nice to have somebody talk on phoronix about that. [03:44] er, I mean, go on the phoronix ATI forum, and tell them about the planned stuff for the installer changes. [03:45] yeah, that would be nice to have the major video card drivers all taken care of that way [03:46] http://www.phoronix.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=19 [03:46] what is not going to be nice is that some people are going to remove the packaged blob and install a new one using nvidia's installer, and thus pooch their system [03:46] that will always happen [03:47] and it's their own fault [03:47] just as people will write insane scripts to download and compile new ALSA* [03:47] well, the problem is that people has been used to doing that [03:47] and people will git clone and clobber X.Org [03:47] crimsun: People do that? I'm sorry for you. [03:47] I was just about to say the same thing... that's nuts [03:47] RAOF: alsa's easy. PA's the difficult one. [03:48] "oh lookee, /usr/local/lib/WHAT?!" [03:48] BABAW! [03:48] package managers are a gift from the gods [03:49] I always look for a package solution first before doing a "make install" [03:49] WeatherGod, you mean like the windows installer service? [03:49] luv that one [03:49] how... what... that just makes me mad! [03:49] no! [03:49] of course not... that is the spawn of the devil [03:49] that is how *not* to do package management [03:50] Well, because it's not package management in the sense we use the phrase. [03:50] exactly [03:51] it's defi9nitely microsoft taking a stab at it [03:51] no, I think that package managers are -- bar none -- the best feature of linux over windows [03:51] PulseAudio is a pretty awesome feature, too, when you have reason to use it (like I do). [03:51] while we can still make it better... what we have is pretty damn good [03:51] it helps when you don't have a registry though [03:52] that makes it easier [03:52] PA is pretty damned awesome even when you don't have a reason to use it :-) [03:52] well, a registry is just a glorified /etc [03:52] ALSA has come a long way thanks to PA [03:52] There's nothing _technically_ wrong with having a registry; mostly it's just that Windows apps use it in indecipherable ways. [03:53] yeah... one of the best ways to improve software is to break assumptions [03:53] everything is wrong with having a registry [03:53] gconf is the same sort of registry concept, and that's really quite nice. [03:53] yes, but it is set up as files [03:53] and it doesn't force other software to use it as well [03:53] C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CONFIG\SYSTEM is corrupt [03:53] Neither does the Windows registry. [03:54] ... because having it all in one file is great. [03:54] well, if you want to use any sort of useful features, you do [03:54] at least, that is my understanding [03:54] DanaG, agreed [03:55] crimsun, I was so pissed when I saw that Win7 ad showing the guy having networked audio and claiming it was his idea... [03:55] Again, I don't think that the single-file implementation is totally evil. [03:55] grrr [03:55] Win7 doesn't even do whole-system networked audio. [03:55] There are some things you need to set up in the registry; mime mappings is one. (And they're set up in the most inscrutable way) [03:56] yeah, where the heck ARE mime types set, anyway? [03:56] it is when your filesystem locks files [03:56] I never ever did figure that out. [03:56] DanaG: You know those huge {iam-a-guid-33333-2222-523434-1231423-342331} registry hives? That's part of the mimetype setup. [03:56] I mean on Linux. [03:57] there is a separate package that has that [03:57] forget what it is, though [03:58] I can't remember if Gnome does it on its own, or if gnome and kde both load from this other package [03:58] You'd proabably be thinking of shared-mime-info [03:58] yes, that's it [03:58] hehe, network audio has been around for decades [03:59] I can't think of one thing in any of those comericals that are actually new [03:59] esound did it, didn't it? [03:59] * RAOF is disappointed that musicbrainz does not have Animals in the db. [04:00] Now if only radeon KMS didn't take so damn much power, I could use it. [04:00] RAOF: Pink Floyd's Animal? [04:00] WeatherGod: Yes. [04:00] heh, go figure [04:00] WeatherGod: At least, my release of it. [04:00] RAOF: yes, and NAS before that, and OSS + nc before that, and ... [04:00] Nor does it have /Dark Side of the Moon/ [04:01] now, I know it has that... [04:01] it recognized my mp3 rips [04:01] Not my release it doesn't. [04:01] good ole "Sheep" [04:01] ?? [04:02] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheep_(song) [04:02] DanaG: Do radeon ums use less power than KMS? [04:02] * RAOF is too old to lose the weight he used to need to throw around. [04:02] Very slightly less... but then Compiz makes mesa exit(). [04:02] Yeah, it just EXITS. [04:02] Not crashes. No backtrace. [04:03] that's neat [04:03] =þ [04:03] :> [04:04] lovely [04:04] not even a debug message or a log entry? [04:04] Not the last time I tried, at least. [04:04] Oh, wow. Recent mesa changes have really killed nouveau's compiz performance. [04:05] Can compiz even run on nouveau right now? [04:05] Any packaged way, I mean. [04:05] yeah, I thought nouvaeu was focusing on 2d performance [04:05] * DanaG switches to radeon UMS for a while... [04:06] also, does anyone know if the microcode got pushed into the mainline kernel tree for nouvaeu? [04:06] The firmware? No, although you can easily grab it, and the nv4x voodoo generator works. [04:07] I thought Linus was pushing for it to be moved in? [04:07] The driver's in there; the firmware-like stuff isn't. [04:07] But nv4x no longer needs the firmware like stuff, and the work for nv5x appears to be mostly done. [04:07] maybe we are talking about two different things [04:07] that's good to know [04:08] DanaG: By “packaged” do you mean “is there any PPA with a mesa build that enables nouveau 3D” then no. The DDX, libdrm, and nouveau-kernel-source we have in ~xorg-edgers is enough to build & use nouveau-gallium, though. [04:08] I got an older computer that I am probably going to convert into a Freevo setup, and it has a good NVidia card in it [04:09] why freevo and not xbmc? [04:10] well, haven't looked into it yet... xbmc seems to be the new thing, huh? [04:10] I know of freevo and mythtv [04:10] boxee is neat, but not quite what I want [04:10] * crimsun chuckles: [ 0.103637] (==) NV(0): Using HW cursor [04:10] ?? [04:11] I'm sure that's a great speed improvement :) [04:11] that's in your dmesg? [04:11] Looks like xorg.0.log to me. [04:11] Nah, /var/log/Xorg.0.log. The cursor takes on a mind of its own when I'm debuilding. [04:12] ah, never played with those things [04:13] probably should have to help figure out a couple of weird things with MatLab [04:13] free drivers randomly crashes with it, but not the nvidia ones [04:14] the only reason why I won't bad-mouth NVidia [04:14] the free drivers are only good for a terminal emulator (check) and non-anti-aliased fonts (check) [04:15] so, vga mode...? [04:15] :P [04:15] crimsun, LOL I agree [04:15] by the way... speaking of anti-aliased fonts... [04:16] firefox looks pretty in Lucid [04:16] it is a pleasure to read [04:16] yargh, had to log into kde. [04:16] trying to log into gnome just dumped me back to the login screen. [04:17] http://pastebin.com/f5799e48c [04:17] No error. [04:17] heh [04:17] hmm, UMS power usage is acceptable, though. [04:18] Time for me to purge fglrx and go on to new xorg. [04:18] I just found out that Cheese now can turn on my built-in camera automatically [04:18] that's new for me [04:19] I had had the karmic X server pinned. [04:20] wouldn't that have been causing problems? [04:20] It was working fine-ish until the mesa changes. [04:21] exactly [04:21] DanaG, I have multiple partitions, booted from a dedicated GRUB partition. So I keep multiple versions, and can install them cleanly. [04:21] But now that I put some of that IC Diamond thermal paste on my GPU, the temperatures with UMS powersavings are acceptable. [04:21] time to go to xorg-edgers. [04:22] have fun [04:23] E: Type 'n' is not known on line 2 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list.d/xorg-edgers-ppa-lucid.list [04:23] deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/xorg-edgers/ppa/ubuntu lucid main [04:23] n [04:23] # deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/xorg-edgers/ppa/ubuntu lucid main [04:24] yeah, there's a random 'n' there. [04:24] wonder how that got there... [04:24] maybe a bad \n? [04:28] eh. [04:28] ooh, Power Management has nothing about my battery, and won't let me configure anything for "On AC" [04:29] oh, and ums does have some visual corruption. [04:29] My windows look like they've been torn from a spiral-bound notebook... they have artifacts that look like those little "rippy bits" around them. [04:29] eeew [04:30] my popup notifications don't look great either [04:30] KMS looks nice, but literally doubles my whole-system power usage (as measured by my battery). [04:30] don't know how to describe it, but it isn't right [04:31] heh [04:31] go figure.... looks like firefox is responsible for most of the CPU wakeups on my system right now [04:32] 99% on one of the cores and a few percent on the other [04:33] unless that isn't percent... dunno [04:33] WeatherGod, the notification bubbles in the upper right? looks like they're deliberately annotated during the alpha. [04:33] yeah, those [04:33] I get no alpha effects [04:34] yes, they look bad, but I believe that it is intentional (such as the annotation on the top to review the urgency level) [04:34] get a bunch of lines and some really tiny text to go with the man message [04:34] yeah [04:34] DanaG, did you read that phoronix story about power management being discussed? [04:34] I believe that they are indicating the layout within the bubble. [04:34] hope there is no intention of letting that go to beta [04:35] yeah, I tried those patches. [04:35] They didn't slow the vram at all, didn't slow the GPU very much, and caused glitches upon the all-too-frequent clock changes. [04:36] also, they've suggested "performance" and "ondemand" governors... well, what about "powersave"? [04:36] WeatherGod, I doubt it. These are still (very) early days, and the notification system needs work. [04:37] good [04:37] well, time for sleep for me [04:37] good night, y'all [04:38] ugh, it seems "radeon" detects incorrect DPI. [04:38] Everything is reeeeeeeeeeeeeally tiny. [04:39] RADEON(0): DPI set to (96, 96) [04:39] well, it should be 147, not 96. [04:46] argh, so yeah, my letters are literally 3 millimeters tall now. [04:47] http://pastebin.com/f1cf443f9 -- say, why is radeon reporting 96 dpi, when it has the size correct AND the resolution correct? [04:47] 147 dpi is i think greater than a kindle [04:48] it's certainly in ebook reader territory [04:48]