[10:46] <xchat-p3t3r> hi..
[10:46] <xchat-p3t3r> i'm involved in the Ubuntu Manual translating
[10:46] <xchat-p3t3r>  what have i to do to begin this activity?
[10:47] <xchat-p3t3r> bcause some time launchpad doesn't allows making changes..
[10:47] <lepr> What or where is the "Manual"?
[10:48] <xchat-p3t3r> ?
[10:52] <lepr> I found it
[10:52] <lepr> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
[11:02] <xchat-p3t3r> ok...i've read
[11:02] <xchat-p3t3r> one question: i have to active a SSh key?
[11:06] <lepr> From the Manual: "We've got our own IRC channel - #ubuntu-manual on irc.freenode.net "
[11:15] <xchat-p3t3r> so?
[11:27] <lepr> so, you might want to check in that channel as well.  I checked what channels your user was in and that was not one of them.
[11:28] <lepr> i see now he is gone.
[11:33] <vish>  hi.. anyone know why the "topic" section in the Help& support switch from being on the left side on the main page to the right side in the rest of the contents?
[15:41] <vish> hmm...
[18:07] <doctormo> nixternal: I figured it might be better responding to your comment here, promote a discussion in context.
[18:07] <doctormo> Let me know when your online
[19:10]  * vish wonders if that blog was really essential ;)
[19:16] <doctormo> vish: Of course not essential, but most certainly useful.
[19:21] <vish> doctormo: dont get me wrong,  But IMO , seemed a bit like airing dirty linen... :)  this was just a small misunderstanding which would smoothen out
[19:22] <doctormo> vish: Isn't that what I said? No problems here. But since I did blog about the Manual team I felt that the issues should be reported.
[19:23] <vish> k.. :)
[19:24]  * doctormo has the good fortune to have not been involved.
[19:46] <nixternal> yo yo, doctormo getting ready to do a podcast interview with the Kubuntu and KDE peeps...
[19:46] <nixternal> just open up discussion, I can follow along and yell when I can :D
[19:50] <doctormo> nixternal: Forgot what I was going to say now... one second
[19:51] <nixternal> lol
[19:51] <doctormo> nixternal: Ah right, yes google is a problem, multitudes of data is a problem
[19:51] <nixternal> I hate when I do that...though you went almost 2 hours...I will ping someone and 15 minutes later forget :)
[19:52] <doctormo> nixternal: I don't think the manual is targeted at online availability per say, it's targeted at CD shippment or deb compilation AFAICS.
[19:52] <nixternal> problem is this though with shipping it, our CDs are packed as it is, and in order to get something else in there, sometimes the only way is to remove something else...though I think with the removal of gimp that helped
[19:52] <nixternal> but why have 2 forms of documentation locally installed?
[19:53] <nixternal> system documentation and yelp are meant to take care of that
[19:53] <doctormo> nixternal: The manual isn't documentation, it's more instructive and clear cut. Imagien the difference between microwave instruction manuals and microwave documentation books.
[19:53] <nixternal> I know in KDE, when in an application, we can go up to the menu and hit Help -> Foo's Manual and start reading about the application we are using...I am sure GNOME does it similarly
[19:54] <nixternal> doctormo: that is what "Topic Based Help" is supposed to be, instructive and clear cut
[19:54] <nixternal> minimal and to the point
[19:54] <doctormo> *shrug* obviously it isn't working, I don't know anyone that's commented on using it or that it's helped them achieve something.
[19:54] <nixternal> my vision for a manual would be online distribution
[19:54] <nixternal> doctormo: you can look at bug report, plenty of people are using it
[19:54] <doctormo> Indeed, not the same, but maybe the same content.
[19:55] <nixternal> you and I may not use it, but a lot of new users are using it
[19:55] <doctormo> nixternal: What I really want to say is: so long as the manual isn't a web page, let them get on with it and see what comes out.
[19:55] <nixternal> well, if the content in the manual should be in documentation, why not fix it in the official documentation?
[19:55]  * doctormo teaches ubuntu desktop to new people and knows of none of the users that do.
[19:55] <doctormo> nixternal: Because then it wouldn't be a manual would it.
[19:56] <nixternal> create a new project to fix what seems to me a bug report at best, isn't good justification
[19:56] <doctormo> nixternal: the manual isn't documentation... that's the social bug.
[19:56] <nixternal> if it is written and aimed to help someone, it is documentation
[19:57] <doctormo> Ah so now you'll want to be conflicting with the ubuntu learning team's content.
[19:57] <Pendulum> From what I can tell a manual is what you read before you start doing something, a help menu is meant for once you're having a problem and need to know how to do something?
[19:57] <nixternal> Pendulum: yes
[19:57] <doctormo> and I suppose spread-ubuntu is also running fowl since they do the same thing.
[19:57] <nixternal> I don't know what either project has, so I can't comment
[19:58] <doctormo> nixternal: I thought you were a LoCo person? (a subject for another time and channel)
[19:58] <nixternal> just to point out, you used the term "running fowl", I didn't...just because someone is doing something similar, I don't see it as running fowl at all...this is open source by the way, people are free to do whatever they want
[19:59] <nixternal> I am just curious as to why people would want to start a similar project instead of helping the current project that is a) official, b) installed by default
[19:59] <doctormo> Anyway, I thought it could have been handled better, instead of conflicting your team could have a) offered a position as sub-team, promoting the manual and helping their members pride and b) Invited their writers to use existing content from the docs team.
[19:59] <nixternal> doctormo: I am a LoCo person, and just because I am, doesn't mean I use the products there
[20:02] <nixternal> doctormo: we would have loved to do such a thing, but we were never a) even aware of this project until reading it from a website, b) not aware of such a project until after it had already been started
[20:02] <nixternal> It isn't like they came to use months ago with an idea and asked for help, so trying to put blame on the doc team is lame at best
[20:03] <doctormo> nixternal: No blame here, and those arguments are illogical. I'm stating what I felt you might have been able to do recently, even after a surpise discovery.
[20:03] <nixternal> huh?
[20:03] <nixternal> how are they illogical?
[20:03] <nixternal> you come at me saying "instead of conflicting your team"
[20:03] <doctormo> Because what they could have done months ago and what you could have known ages ago has no baring on what you might have been able to do recently.
[20:03] <nixternal> we didn't conflict anything, we gave constructive criticism
[20:04] <nixternal> that's horsecrap, you make it sound like it is the docs team fault for stuff...it isn't...we tried to provide constructive criticism and now we are being made to look like the bad people here
[20:05] <nixternal> you can look at myself, mdke, phil bull...we have been around here for 5+ years each, we have seen manuals come and go, pass and fail...if you remember at one time, Ubuntu Documentation was a manual
[20:05] <doctormo> That isn't what I'm saying, I have only explained what I feel, you don't have to agree but I'd note that I haven't blamed anyone or faulted. I just think your positive outcome could have been more positive.
[20:06] <nixternal> "instead of conflicting your team" <- that sounds like you are trying to put it on the doc team though
[20:06] <nixternal> if that isn't what you mean, then I apologize
[20:06] <doctormo> nixternal: You read my blog, you know I think conflict is positive.
[20:06] <doctormo> nixternal: Dialectic etc.
[20:07] <nixternal> oh, you forgot a comma...I can read, really I can :p
[20:08] <doctormo> ah, my fault, sorry.
[20:09] <nixternal> that's fine, I apologize for not at least catching it sooner
[20:09] <nixternal> now, as a sub-team, I have no problem with that
[20:10] <nixternal> seeing as our docs are freely licensed, don't think we really need to invite anyone to use the existing content, figured the license would have done so already
[20:10] <doctormo> nixternal: It's the look of the thing, social etc. brings people in.
[20:11] <nixternal> right
[20:11] <doctormo> Also positive bias, we see what we are told is there, we may not thing it exists otherwise :-)
[20:11] <nixternal> see, I mostly concentrate on the Kubuntu side of things, so in that case mdke would be the best person to do such a thing
[20:12] <nixternal> we had a guy writing a manual, I tried to get him to help us with docs, he was a bit confrontational and I haven't seen anything since from him
[20:12] <nixternal> though we definitely don't have any room for a manual on the Kubuntu CD
[20:13] <doctormo> The main guy Benjamin, he was looking for (and probably still is) guidence, official seating for the project. And since from the look of the project, he's a kick ass project leader, I'm looking forward to see what comes out of the project or at the very least how he fails.
[20:14] <nixternal> I can tell you he is a kick ass project leader...I want to know how the hell he got so many people going, "HELL YEAH! I want to contribute"
[20:14] <nixternal> we ask for contributors and everyone is like, "writing docs suck!"
[20:14] <doctormo> So far, the deadlines for chapters in blueprints, the spread of work over multiple contributors and the narrow focus of the effort.
[20:14] <nixternal> the only prob with documenting, is it gets old fast, easy to burn out
[20:14] <nixternal> I had to literally take 2 years almost away from it, I grew so tired of it
[20:15] <doctormo> Plus, it's selling the dream, not the work. "We need people to write docs" vs "Ubuntu needs a manual that helps new users and you could be one of those that helps make it happen!"
[20:15] <doctormo> That's another thing I'm curious on watching, what happens for Lucid+1
[20:16] <nixternal> yeah, I should have done blueprints for Kubuntu docs, I am kind of jealous of that...I know for Lucid+1 we (Kubuntu too) will use blueprints over a stupid wiki page
[20:16] <Pendulum> nixternal: I suspect he somewhat got the fire because I think at least some of the people involved are new-ish
[20:17] <nixternal> and they are using LaTeX right?
[20:17] <Pendulum> I considered helping with it because I'd like to get into documentation, but am too shy to ask most of the time and not sure quite where/how to start
[20:17] <doctormo> I think the narrow focus really helps keep curious people in the project... they can see the finish line and they can see chunks of work.
[20:17] <Pendulum> nixternal: yes
[20:17] <nixternal> LaTeX seems more difficult that docbook, and everyone says docbook is a barrier into contributing
[20:17] <nixternal> that's what I really find interesting
[20:18] <doctormo> nixternal: The learning project is using Asciidoc and converting to Docbook.
[20:18] <nixternal> so the manual has shown me that those who say docbook is a barrier are wimps :p
[20:18]  * nixternal perfers rst over asciidoc
[20:18] <Pendulum> docbook is a technical barrier, not a social one. I do wonder if there are maybe more social barriers than technical when it comes to documentation
[20:18] <Pendulum> "social" in the broadest definition of the word
[20:18] <nixternal> I was using asciidoc for a job I did, and then went to PyCon where they taught me all about the wonderful ways of rst
[20:19] <doctormo> Oh there was a whole research session to pick Asciidoc over a number of alternatives.
[20:19] <nixternal> I wonder if people thing we expect perfect english in our docs or something? I know I am far from speaking perfect english let alone writing it...that's why we have people like mdke and phil who can spot bad grammar and typos a mile away
[20:19] <nixternal> :)
[20:20] <nixternal> yeah, asciidoc is brutally simple
[20:20] <doctormo> That's the ticket! we don't need complex stuff for classes, most of the document is template driven anyway.
[20:21] <doctormo> By the way, we still need to suck in the docs team's docbook code to start generating translations.
[20:21] <doctormo> I was jealous that the manual team already has them. heh.
[20:22] <nixternal> which is interesting, because I don't know if the xubuntu-docs even have translations
[20:24] <vish> ... anyone know why the "topic" section in the Help& support switch from being on the left side on the main page to the right side in the rest of the contents?
[20:25] <vish> !test
[20:25] <ubot4> yes, I'm alive.
[23:28] <gmendoza> good afternoon
[23:34] <gabless> gmendoza Yellow
[23:36] <gmendoza> :-)
[23:36] <gabless> What's goin' on?
[23:37] <gmendoza> just wrapping up work... gonna try to make some headway with some doc patches today.
[23:38] <gabless> doc has patches?
[23:39] <gmendoza> meant patches/diffs for server guide
[23:40] <gabless> Like revisions>?
[23:40] <gabless> Oops, *?
[23:51] <gmendoza> yup.
[23:53] <gabless> Huh, neat, haha