/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/01/14/#ubuntu-manual.txt

markit_2I would love the manual state about GNU/Linux and not "Linux" when referring the whole operating system00:21
sebsebsebmarkit_2: oh right yeah00:23
sebsebsebindeed Linux is just a kernel00:24
markit_2thanks, I really consider it very important for Free Software :)00:24
sebsebsebmarkit_2: some don't like calling a distro   Ubuntu GNU/Linux for example00:24
markit_2btw, do you know how can I "reclaim" my nick in freenode? someone is using my usual one00:24
sebsebsebmarkit_2: well it's not my choice what text they do00:24
sebsebsebmarkit_2: ,but the correct people are likely to see this later on00:25
sebsebsebmarkit_2: you can lock your nick if it's registered00:25
sebsebsebso only you can use it00:25
markit_2sebsebseb: hope they agree also, there is a strange repeated attempt to put the "Free as in freedom" par marginal or avoided00:25
sebsebsebthere's been like two meetings on the text for the manual and that00:25
markit_2I've registered it, but not locked00:25
sebsebsebthere will be another one coming up00:26
sebsebsebmarkit_2: if you hang around here  or come here every now and again,  I am sure you can get quite a few or all of your suggestions in for the manual00:26
sebsebseb!log00:26
manualbotOfficial channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/00:26
sebsebsebmarkit_2: it's logged now as well00:26
sebsebseb!register00:26
manualbotInformation about registering your nickname: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration - Type « /nick <nickname> » to select your nickname. Registration help available in #freenode00:26
markit_2sebsebseb: I've my "markit" nick registered, but can't use right now because is used by someone else00:27
markit_2I'm googling for "reclaim nick" but seems that there are confused info about it00:28
markit_2let's try #defocus00:28
sebsebsebmarkit_2: ok I think you got to wait for them to go off it, and then put in the command so only you can use it.  #freenode or Freenode Staff in pm regarding your nick00:28
markit_2lol, can't post there since I've not a registered link00:29
sebsebsebmarkit_2: link you mean nick?00:29
markit_2yes, sorry00:29
markit_2s/link/nick00:29
sebsebsebwell someon elese might have the name you want to register,  in which case you can't just use it00:29
sebsebsebunless...00:29
markit_2I have registered it time ago00:29
markit_2so it's "mine", I have the password00:30
sebsebsebok well I  told you where you can get help with that00:30
markit_2so there must be a command to have it back00:30
sebsebsebthey can send you a new password request00:30
sebsebsebto your email address yes00:30
=== markit_2 is now known as markit
markitok, done with release and ghost commands00:35
markitthanks for the #freenode suggestion, they helped me00:35
markit:)00:35
sebsebsebmarkit: ok, well I knew they would00:39
sebsebsebmarkit: np00:40
markitok, I try to upgrade my xorg packages, see you later, I hope00:40
sebsebsebKonversation terminated00:41
sebsebsebKonversation :)00:41
sebsebseb(Konversation terminated!  even as the left message.)00:43
sebsebsebNow that's a good client!00:43
sebsebseb:)00:43
sebsebsebI use it as well.  People are likely to read this later on, hence the messages.00:44
jmburgesshey everyone00:54
sebsebsebjmburgess: hmm ended up talking to two guys about the manual a bit, but somewhere else00:54
jmburgesshaha01:02
jmburgesswere you talking about the manual here?01:02
sebsebsebjmburgess: with the guy that was here a little while ago, but then a tiny bit with two others in another channel as well01:14
jmburgesscool01:27
humphreybcafternoon everyone02:11
humphreybcwhere was that bug about synaptic?02:12
humphreybcah ha it was closed, cool02:13
* humphreybc is pissed off at the docs team failure to see the benefits of our project02:33
sebsebsebhumphreybc: have a look at log, from earlier,  someone had a suggestion for text02:38
humphreybcok hold up one sec02:39
sebsebsebhumphreybc: not much to read really, I could have just told you, but anyway :)02:40
humphreybcyeah just read it02:43
humphreybcwas it about using GNU/Linux instead of Linux?02:44
sebsebsebhumphreybc: yeah02:45
sebsebsebhumphreybc: calling it all Linux is wrong02:45
sebsebsebLinux is just a kernel02:45
humphreybcwe're not even calling it linux02:45
sebsebsebhumphreybc: oh?02:45
sebsebsebjust Ubuntu then?02:45
humphreybchttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide02:46
sebsebsebhumphreybc:  oh another Ubuntu Manual media attention thing03:12
humphreybchmm?03:12
sebsebsebshame wolters  image wasn't choosen though03:12
sebsebsebhumphreybc: yeah03:12
humphreybcwhere's the link?03:13
sebsebsebhttp://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2010011303135NWUB which goes to http://www.learningubuntu.com/news/quick-preview-upcoming-ubuntu-manual03:14
humphreybcno ones has been "chosen" yet - the reporters obviously just grabbed one of the artwork page03:16
sebsebsebhumphreybc  yes indeed,  I meant for their blog/article03:16
humphreybcoh right sure03:16
sebsebsebanyway that one says it will be included in 10.0403:16
humphreybcI'm not going to email them and ask them to change it, our project _will_ be included in Lucid.03:17
sebsebsebhumphreybc I was about to ask if we knew if it would actually be included or not yet03:18
humphreybcno, we won't know for some time.03:18
sebsebsebso it might not be in the ISO still?03:19
humphreybcThe Ubuntu folks can't commit to something that isn't completed yet03:19
humphreybcSo we need to try our best to get it finished as soon as possible.03:19
sebsebsebwell that blog says it will be included03:19
sebsebsebI could quote from it, but well you got a link so no need03:20
sebsebsebhumphreybc wow at those latest cover proposals altough the text would need sorting out properly03:25
sebsebsebKolorGuild's proposals03:26
sebsebsebwith the last two being my favourite03:26
sebsebsebhumphreybc  good idea to put a date on the comments03:27
sebsebseband then people can also add new comments of course?03:28
humphreybcof course03:28
humphreybcadd some if you want03:28
sebsebsebmy other comment was bits I put on IRC so it's not that great, but yes I am going to do a proper comment, but not yet03:28
sebsebsebhumphreybc who put the thing for overall comments, it does not say03:30
sebsebseband indeed at that, the cover page needs to look pro03:30
humphreybcoverall comments are under my heading03:30
humphreybcthey're my comments03:30
sebsebseblike a professional graphics has made it, however even so,  would be great if the final cover was made using opensource/freesoftware tools rather than Photoshop03:30
sebsebsebor anything else that isn't open for that matter03:31
wolterhey humphreybc04:53
wolterhow was the meeting04:53
humphreybcgidday04:54
humphreybcwhat meeting?04:54
woltersorry that I did not assist, but is impossible for me to04:54
wolterbecause its at 6 am, and that is like the pure middle of my sleep time04:54
wolterso i will not be able to attend04:54
humphreybcthe meeting's not till saturday :)04:54
wolteroh04:56
woltersorry then04:56
humphreybcheh no worries04:57
wolteris there any way that you could change the meeting time?04:57
humphreybcnope sorry buddy04:57
wolterwhat decides the meeting time?04:57
humphreybcit only affects the americas - it's a good time for Europe, Asia, Oceania and Africa04:57
humphreybc^^ that04:57
wolteraw..04:58
humphreybcunfortunately there will always be people who lose out, it's the nature of international projects04:58
humphreybcyou could just get up at 6am, go to bed earlier the previous night :)04:59
wolteryeah i could04:59
wolteri guess04:59
humphreybchaha04:59
humphreybc6am isn't that bad04:59
humphreybcUS central is like 3am meetings04:59
wolterwell, you should say america, because there is only one05:00
humphreybc:)05:00
wolterno really, the people from usa, or usanians, as I like to call them and many more, have "re-invented" geography by saying tat america splits up in two continent05:16
wolters05:16
wolternorth america and south america05:16
IlyaHaykinson_*sigh* yeah, meetings at 3am are tough.06:03
IlyaHaykinson_but obviously one can't satisfy everyone06:03
humphreybcYeah sorry folks, that's the case with international projects06:04
IlyaHaykinson_though i have to say that UTC1900 is a better time06:09
IlyaHaykinson_it's 7pm in London, 11am in Los Angeles, 8am in Wellington06:10
IlyaHaykinson_or even any time between 1900 and 000006:11
IlyaHaykinson_all this at the cost of most of Asia, though06:12
humphreybchmmm06:17
humphreybcmight change meeting times for the next one06:18
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: i'm reworking the online survey06:33
humphreybcokay cool06:33
humphreybci took it earlier today, i think I put "awesome" as one of my responses :)06:33
IlyaHaykinson_i want to also add a few questions about other topics we're not totally sure about.06:33
humphreybcsure go for it06:33
IlyaHaykinson_my thinking is a question to ask about the need to include command line stuff (and how much depth)06:34
humphreybcgood thinking number 9906:35
IlyaHaykinson_a question about security -- how much to dwell on it06:35
humphreybcsounds good, although who are you targeting this survey at?06:35
IlyaHaykinson_and then an open ended question about troubleshooting06:35
IlyaHaykinson_my thought is actually a technical audience06:35
IlyaHaykinson_i was going to ask a few of my contacts to try to spread the link06:35
humphreybcyeah that makes more sens06:35
humphreybcsense*(06:36
IlyaHaykinson_i.e. scott hanselman (evangelist at MS, tech geek) may run it.06:36
IlyaHaykinson_on his twitter feed06:36
IlyaHaykinson_may get a few hundred responses, if he does06:36
humphreybcno good asking a windows user to tell us what they'd like to see in an ubuntu troubleshooting section...06:36
IlyaHaykinson_also andy baio at waxy.org06:36
humphreybcoh sounds fantastic! way to go!06:36
IlyaHaykinson_well, hopefully we'll see how the responses correlate with the current OS06:37
IlyaHaykinson_my thinking is that windows/mac users are actually probably our #1 audience in general.06:37
humphreybcsweetbix06:37
IlyaHaykinson_if we could find a way to ask a _general_ audience, that'd be even better. but they're not likely to have even heard of Ubuntu ... :(06:37
humphreybcalright well sounds great, you create the survey and send me the link, i'll get Martin Owens to blog it on the planet too06:38
IlyaHaykinson_nod. i will have the revised survey in another few mins06:38
humphreybcyeah unless you feel like hitting up the mall with a clipboard06:38
IlyaHaykinson_heh.06:38
humphreybci'll tweet and blog it06:39
humphreybcoh and facebook it i guess06:39
IlyaHaykinson_ok, can you take a look please?07:04
IlyaHaykinson_http://questionpro.com/t/ADd2yZGu5007:04
IlyaHaykinson_as a reminder, please don't share the link with the public.07:07
humphreybcsure i'll have a look07:13
humphreybcoh gnarly stuff on the apps07:14
humphreybcis this all free?07:15
IlyaHaykinsonyeah07:15
IlyaHaykinsonif i had more time / needed more capabilities, there's an open source version of similar software too07:15
IlyaHaykinsonbut this (with the limits and everything) is enough, and even forces us to ask only a few questions as opposed to too many07:16
humphreybcawesome07:16
humphreybci just took it, put "COOKIES!!" as a few answers so you know it's07:16
humphreybcme07:16
humphreybcsurvey is great :)07:16
IlyaHaykinsonthx.07:17
IlyaHaykinsoni'll wait till (my) morning for more feedback07:17
humphreybcwhen will that be?07:18
IlyaHaykinsonum, well, it's 11:18pm right now07:20
IlyaHaykinsonso maybe around 8-9 hrs from now07:20
humphreybcrighto07:28
humphreybcheh07:28
humphreybcI'm replying to "Thomas R Jones"07:28
humphreybcand I am very very very tempted to say "cut the melodramatic bullshit" in my email...07:29
vishhumphreybc: stop..07:33
humphreybceh07:33
vishhumphreybc: dont reply.. :)  take some time away from the keyboard07:33
humphreybcSure07:33
humphreybcIt's just so annoying that what I originally sent as an email offering to collaborate with the docs team turns into a debate about the manual project. The docs team need to realise that we're here to stay, like it or not they may as well make the most out of the situation and take me up on the offer of collaboration.07:34
humphreybcThe docs team is being unreasonable because of fear, they know that they have problems and that they're weak and don't want competition as it may replace the docs team down the road.07:35
vishhumphreybc: no one can dictate that a project can exist on not07:35
humphreybcof course07:36
vishthomas probably didnt realize that ;)07:36
humphreybcand that is what I just sent to this Thomas person07:36
vishhumphreybc: just wait for someone else to mention  what needs to be done... [but i do have to say your last response to Mathew east was not needed either]07:36
vish;)07:36
vishhumphreybc: sometimes the best response is _not_ responding :)07:37
humphreybcTrue07:37
humphreybcgood words of wisdom07:37
humphreybcbut you can imagine the frustration after all the work we have done to basically be shut down every time I offer collaboration.07:38
IlyaHaykinsoni think perhaps we need to not offer collaboration07:40
IlyaHaykinsonbe open to it, yes07:40
IlyaHaykinsonbut, well... i think the best defense for us is finishing the manual07:40
IlyaHaykinsonafter that, the discussion becomes less academic ("do we need another X") and more practical ("oh. what do we do with this useful thing?")07:40
vishhumphreybc: fair point... but they have been here longer , so they do know what they are talking about... they have not succeeded earlier , hence i see them/their advice as a friendly suggestion ... as an advice of "things to be careful of" .. use it positively  , just lookout for those problems07:41
IlyaHaykinson*sigh* texlive-full is another 355MB... :(07:42
IlyaHaykinsonmy poor netbook, i'm abusing it much with this project.07:42
humphreybcI think you can get away with texlive and texlive-latex-extra07:47
humphreybcI think that's only 200mb all up or so, opposed to the texlive-full package which is more than 50007:47
IlyaHaykinsonwell, too late now07:47
humphreybcI'm still trying to work out why a text editing suite comes to 500mb!07:48
IlyaHaykinsonmostly installed already07:48
IlyaHaykinsoner, it's cause right now i'm staring at ...hungarian, ... tibetan...07:48
humphreybchow much space has your netbook got?07:48
IlyaHaykinsoni think they have every major language supported07:48
humphreybcoh07:48
humphreybci see haha07:48
IlyaHaykinsonoh. i think a lot. 120GB?07:48
humphreybcOh I was thinking 8GB SSD07:49
IlyaHaykinsonno, thank goodness07:49
humphreybcyou wouldn't stand a hope in hell :P07:49
IlyaHaykinsonthough till now i'd actually fit into that07:49
humphreybcit'll be nice when SSD prices decrease and SSD size increases07:49
IlyaHaykinsonactually tex wont push me over07:49
IlyaHaykinsonnod. well, crappy SSDs are already cheap07:49
humphreybcmmm07:50
IlyaHaykinsonat work we got some thrown in for free with some larger purchase07:50
IlyaHaykinsonthey were _SO_ bad.07:50
IlyaHaykinsoni put windows on one...07:50
humphreybcSSDs in my server would be cool so it's nice and quiet07:50
humphreybcreally slow was it?07:50
IlyaHaykinsonlet's just say that i went back to the spinning hard disk within a week07:50
IlyaHaykinsonbut apparently the intel X25-Ms are just blazing fast07:50
IlyaHaykinsonand not too outrageously priced.07:50
IlyaHaykinsoni suppose i just need them to drop by, uhm, 30%? and then i will be game.07:51
humphreybchaha07:51
humphreybcyes well give it another year or so07:52
humphreybcI'm still waiting for fuel cells...07:52
IlyaHaykinsonnow -that- would be cool07:52
IlyaHaykinsonthough i shudder to think what would happen when flying with these laptops07:52
humphreybcimagine a week of battery life07:52
IlyaHaykinsonairline security can't possibly love the transition to fuel cells07:53
humphreybcthey'll hate it07:53
humphreybcyou'll probably have to put your fuel cells or something in your suitcase, and use a regular battery for the flight07:53
IlyaHaykinsonnod07:53
IlyaHaykinsonok, i'm out for the night, l8r08:19
vishhumphreybc: hehe , your private mail to David , was inline in David's response to the doc ML ;)08:21
humphreybcyeah, he obviously didn't realise08:21
vishyeah08:21
humphreybcmeh08:21
humphreybche's right on a few things08:22
humphreybci'm not going to bother with the docs team anymore08:22
humphreybcbut he's wrong on some other things08:22
humphreybcwe're not trying to copy the docs team or do a better job at the same stuff08:22
humphreybcwe're targeted at a different audience than the docs team are08:22
humphreybcand i'm not asking for "your way and your way only" - in my first email to them I said this: "I'd like to ask what else the docs team would like from the manual team."08:26
humphreybcbut i can't be bothered arguing with them any more, they're either ill-informed, haven't looked at our wiki or are just naive08:26
vish:)08:28
humphreybcand the point is that everyone else in the community is behind this project except them08:33
* humphreybc is still not happy with 64 bit flash!09:38
popey:(10:05
humphreybcpopey: ?10:07
humphreybcwhere should one go for help regarding mounting a remote server on boot? does anyone in here know?10:17
popey!mount10:18
manualbotmount is used to attach devices to directories. See also https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mount10:18
popeyalso10:18
popey!fstab10:18
manualbotThe /etc/fstab file indicates how drive partitions are to be used or otherwise integrated into the file system. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Fstab and http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/fstab.html and !Partitions10:18
xchat-p3t3r_hi10:19
popeyhumphreybc: the ":(" was just how i felt about the comments above regarding the break downs in communication between manual and doc teams10:19
humphreybcpopey if you like could we talk about that in a private conversation?10:19
humphreybchi xchat-p3r3r_10:20
xchat-p3t3r_when i login in launchpad, it desn't allows me to modify and translate.. why?10:20
humphreybcumm have you got a PGP key?10:20
humphreybccheck out this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help#Using bzr10:21
xchat-p3t3r_no...10:21
humphreybcsorry an SSH key10:21
humphreybchttps://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair10:21
xchat-p3t3r_no10:21
xchat-p3t3r_but it behaves in that way not all the time..10:24
humphreybcwhat do you mean?10:24
xchat-p3t3r_at the 90% of the time i can modify and translate..10:25
humphreybcbut it sometimes won't let you?10:26
humphreybchmm10:26
humphreybchave you followed the steps on our wiki?10:26
xchat-p3t3r_10% : it's seem i'm logout.. as a not register users...10:26
humphreybcdoes it give you any errors? where are you having trouble, at the command line when you're trying to push?10:28
xchat-p3t3r_no10:28
humphreybcwhere are you having the problem? at what stage of making changes?10:28
xchat-p3t3r_but i've only been registered at launchpad10:28
humphreybcwell you need to have a launchpad account, be a member of our team and have an SSH key for the computer you're using registered with launchpad10:29
humphreybcotherwise it won't work10:29
xchat-p3t3r_the problem is that i've already worked on this with no errors..10:31
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson_ : are you there?10:55
vishhumphreybc: hmm..you do realize that the doc mailing list is watched by a lot of teams and people , right?11:44
humphreybcvish: yes I know.11:44
humphreybcdon't worry I'm having a serious think, and talking to many people privately about what this project wants to achieve.11:44
bittin|:o11:59
humphreybclolwut12:01
bittin|i killed a screen =)12:04
humphreybchah12:05
humphreybcmurderer12:05
bittin|:D12:06
leprAs for what format to develop the Manual in, I investigated various formats myself for other projects, here are my conclusions. A good path to HTML is necessary. (La)Tex: I did not investigate much.  DocBook: Yet another markup that varies from the well  known HTML for no reason.  Choosing it will exclude participants. Who wants to learn yet another markup for no good reason?  It could have been made to extend HTML, but is not made that way. 13:10
leprSo you were/are doing work in ODT?  Seems not a bad choice.  The Sun Wiki exporter is handy.  There are Nice UIs.  You can save diagrams in separate documents if you please.13:13
leprI should say, "Seems one of the 2 best choices."13:13
jussi01lepr: Ive heard fantastic things about latex. fwiw13:26
leprjussi01: advantages over HTML?13:32
jussi01lepr: it can be easily converted to most formats, including html, pdf and more13:33
jussi01its very flexible13:33
leprI'm still waiting.  ;-)13:34
jussi01lepr: Im not a latex expert, but everyone I talk to who uses it says very good things about it. Id say its worth the investigation13:35
leprThe package i was thinking of is HTMLDoc http://www.htmldoc.org/. It seems not completely up to date with HTML4 and CSS. maybe it is therefore not worth using.13:37
thorwil"DocBook: Yet another markup that varies from the well  known HTML for no reason". Docbook includes lots of stuff that is targeting at marking up most things you will want in a book. a direct comparison to html is silly, as the 2 have quite different purpose. same for latex vs html13:46
pleia2fwiw, the ubuntu-learning team is using asciidoc for our courses13:48
leprI learned enough of the DocBook markup to make a sensible comparison with HTML.13:48
pleia2easy to learn, exporting to docbook is easy for export to other formats13:49
leprThere is much common purpose with HTML and DocBook in the meaning of the markup.13:49
leprTake the sum of endless amounts of 'easy to learn' things that have the same degree of easiness as DocBook and you've got a tough situation.13:50
leprI've heard and seen enough people tell me about how HTML is not easy to learn, to know that a large portion of potential participants are not going to find DocBook easy to learn.13:52
leproops.  I misunderstood your statement about asciidoc being easy to learn as meaning DocBook is easy to learn.13:55
pleia2nah, docbook is hard, asciidoc is more like wiki syntax14:03
pleia2http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/document-formats-for-learning-materials/14:04
pleia2^^ from when we were reviewing a bunch of formats14:04
=== tyabux is now known as XiXaQ
vish*sigh*19:12
sebsebsebHi19:49
bittin|Hi19:52
sebsebsebbittin|: Hi19:55
=== tyabux is now known as XiXaQ
jamindaycan anyone help with a bzr issue23:50

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