[02:29] <sbalneav_> Evening all
[02:37] <mhall119> evening sbalneav_
[03:12] <HedgeMage> Hi, sbalneav_ and mhall119
[03:14] <mhall119> hi HedgeMage
[03:31]  * Ahmuck-Sr running ubuntu lucid alpha2
[03:35] <Ahmuck-Sr> Business process reengineering must be done first and then technology can be used as a tool to make it work.  Whenever technology leads efforts, the projects have failed.
[03:36] <Ahmuck-Sr> on whitehouse.gov - it's interesting, this is essentially what is happening in the edubuntu council, imho, reengineerer the process first and then let the tech follow
[03:42] <sbalneav_> Ahmuck-Sr: K, so, what's the process?
[03:42]  * sbalneav_ looks at Ahmuck-Sr 
[03:45] <sbalneav> Ahmuck-Sr: Are you saying the council's leading efforts?
[03:48] <HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Sr: I think that the technology stuff the whitehouse is trying to draw attention to has very little to do with technology.  It's not a very good example, as there are other political forces driving the whole thing.
[03:48]  * sbalneav is unsure what Ahmuck-Sr's trying to say.
[03:49] <HedgeMage> sbalneav: I *think* he's trying to make a point that people should design tech tools around the way they do things, not the other way around.  However, that's not what the White House is talking about.
[03:51] <sbalneav> But I'm unsure of whether he's saying the edubuntu council is doing that, OR, if he's saying the edubuntu council's dealing with nothing but tech, and our project will fail.
[03:52] <Ahmuck-Sr> purpose, edubuntu is beggining to find its purpose.  though i still believe the emporer has no clothes
[03:52] <sbalneav> Ahmuck-Sr: ok, so, enlighten us: why does the emporer have no clothes?
[03:53] <Ahmuck-Sr> what is edubuntu?
[03:53] <Ahmuck-Sr> let me re-phrase that
[03:53] <Ahmuck-Sr> can i download ubuntu and just add programs on with aptitude?
[03:53] <sbalneav> Yes
[03:53] <sbalneav> Of course.
[03:54] <Ahmuck-Sr> so, what is it in edubuntu that sets it apart from a standard download and a aptitude update?
[03:54] <sbalneav> The same thing that sets debian-edu apart from just downloading debian and just using apt to install the programs
[03:54] <Ahmuck-Sr> theme's?
[03:55] <sbalneav> or same thing that sets K12 Fedora apart from just downloading fedora and just using yum to install the programs
[03:55] <sbalneav> No
[03:55] <sbalneav> People
[03:55] <Ahmuck-Sr> different people, same thing
[03:55] <sbalneav> People who are interested in education, and are helping to fix bugs in educational programs, and put things together in a way that is useful to educators
[03:56] <Ahmuck-Sr> i guess my point is, edubuntu has the opportunity to provide real world tools to teachers, classrooms, small school admins, etc. beyond what is currently avaiable
[03:57] <Ahmuck-Sr> yes, similar to what you said
[03:57] <sbalneav> Fantastic
[03:57] <Ahmuck-Sr> which is beyond a repackaged cd/dvd with programs on it
[03:57] <sbalneav> So, what are these things that are beyond what is currently available?
[03:57] <Ahmuck-Sr> fostering discussions on what areas are missing etc
[03:58] <Ahmuck-Sr> anywho, my orginal point is, it appears that edubuntu council is begginging to pull things togather
[03:59] <sbalneav> Well, it's all well and good to say "edubuntu has the opportunity to provide real world tools to teachers, classrooms, small school admins, etc. beyond what is  currently avaiable
[03:59] <sbalneav> But without:
[03:59] <Ahmuck-Sr> ubuntu is a packaged distro with gnome
[03:59] <Ahmuck-Sr> kubuntu is a packaged distro with kde
[03:59] <Ahmuck-Sr> etc. etc.
[03:59] <sbalneav> edubuntu is a packaged distro with education apps
[04:00] <Ahmuck-Sr> it's ubuntu with edu apps
[04:00] <sbalneav> ubuntu's just debian with fixed
[04:00] <sbalneav> ubuntu's just debian with fixes
[04:00] <sbalneav> debian's just a kernel + GNU apps
[04:00] <Ahmuck-Sr> heh, looked at that already
[04:01] <Ahmuck-Sr> we'll call ubuntu "enhanced debian" rather than just "fixed debian" :)
[04:01] <sbalneav> That's just semantics
[04:01] <sbalneav> My point is, if someone wants something "beyond" what we currently provide, then we need specs on those things.
[04:02] <Ahmuck-Sr> i've been looking at webdav, caldav, and groupdav.  searching google for info brings up a lot of information "not the same" on how to install on ubuntu
[04:02] <sbalneav> i.e. What the tool is, what function you want it to provide, use cases, screen mockups, etc.
[04:02] <Ahmuck-Sr> been working on finding turnkey gpl stuff that is out there to work with moodle-like software as well as schooltool
[04:03] <Ahmuck-Sr> but it would be dreamy to select that from the start
[04:03] <sbalneav> There is none, simply because Linux is all about choice.  There is no "one right way" to install something
[04:03] <Ahmuck-Sr> i agree, however choices are made.  for example, ubuntu is not filled with kde stuff
[04:03] <Ahmuck-Sr> and vice versa
[04:03] <HedgeMage> sbalneav: sure there is... whatever way HedgeMage is in the mood for at the moment ;)
[04:03] <Ahmuck-Sr> :p
[04:04] <sbalneav> And thats where people and edubuntu come in
[04:04] <sbalneav> We make some choices
[04:04] <sbalneav> package it all together
[04:04] <sbalneav> make it interoperate
[04:04] <sbalneav> fix any bugs
[04:04] <sbalneav> and hold up a DVD image and go "tah dah!"
[04:05] <Ahmuck-Sr> i'll keep working on my side
[04:05] <Ahmuck-Sr> btw, how's the wiki coming along?
[04:05] <HedgeMage> Seriously, though, Ahmuck-Sr, what would you have Edubuntu focus on if not packaging an Ubuntu derivative that provides a good first step into edu software?
[04:06] <sbalneav> Dunno, wiki's not my focus.  I try to focus on providing tools that work, fixing bugs, etc.
[04:06] <Ahmuck-Sr> i've found that if you set a course for someone, they will make their own way if they decide they want something different, but sometimes showing them a path works better than giving them many paths.  confusion starts at the fork in the road.
[04:07] <sbalneav> Ahmuck-Sr, so, why didn't you run for council?
[04:07] <Ahmuck-Sr> HedgeMage: i don't download the DVD because it's bandwidth intensive
[04:07] <Ahmuck-Sr> sbalneav: isn't eh council full?
[04:07] <sbalneav> Ahmuck-Sr: There was an election!  Why didn't you put your name forward?
[04:08] <Ahmuck-Sr> HedgeMage: i download the cd, and then add alacarte with what appears to work best with my community
[04:08] <Ahmuck-Sr> sbalneav: got lost in the shuffle of stuff done during the day
[04:08] <Ahmuck-Sr> :(
[04:08] <sbalneav> It only ran for like, a month
[04:09] <Ahmuck-Sr> which, btw, is there a ical for edubuntu that has reminders?
[04:09] <Ahmuck-Sr> meeting reminders, etc.
[04:09] <Ahmuck-Sr> like a caldav server?
[04:09] <sbalneav> That you can install, or is there a public one?
[04:09] <sbalneav> There's the fridge
[04:10] <sbalneav> And of course almost everything's usually announced on the mailing list.
[04:10] <Ahmuck-Sr> a public one?
[04:10] <sbalneav> Yes of course!  edubuntu-users
[04:10] <sbalneav> and edubuntu-devel's public too!
[04:10] <Ahmuck-Sr> hrm, i'll try to find the ical link
[04:11] <sbalneav> And if you have something you'd like to propose as an idea, all you have to do is write a blueprint on it, and post the link to it in edubuntu-users or -devel, we'd be more than happy to look at it.
[04:11] <sbalneav> I have no idea if ical's supported or not.
[04:13] <sbalneav> But currently, nobody's coming to us with ideas like "Edubuntu needs an <x> Program"
[04:13] <sbalneav> They're coming to us with with "We need sabayon to be fixed so that we can manage our gnome desktops"
[04:13] <sbalneav> etc.
[04:13]  * Ahmuck-Sr trottles off to work on groupware/moodle/schooltool intergration tutorial
[04:13] <sbalneav> The whole move to the dvd was done because people wanted it.
[04:14] <sbalneav> Ahmuck-Sr: Gonna post it on our wiki?
[04:14] <Ahmuck-Sr> no. i'm building a separate wiki.  your welcome to copy it
[04:15] <sbalneav> Well, see, that's the problem
[04:15] <HedgeMage> sbalneav: Edubuntu needs a program that makes me tea whenever I'm coding :P
[04:15] <Ahmuck-Sr> sorta.  ubuntu's system is complex
[04:15] <Ahmuck-Sr> HedgeMage: tea timer
[04:15] <HedgeMage> heh
[04:15] <sbalneav> You've just stated you'd like to see more of this thing under Edubuntu, but then, if you're going to do something, you're not doing under the umbella of Edubuntu
[04:16] <Ahmuck-Sr> i stated i was glad i was starting to see more of it happening in edubunt
[04:16] <sbalneav> But edubuntu isn't someone else...
[04:17] <sbalneav> it's you
[04:17] <Ahmuck-Sr> when i started with ibm dos 5.x the manual was 3 inches thick
[04:17] <sbalneav> I'm no more "edubuntu" than you are
[04:17] <Ahmuck-Sr> freebsd is the same way
[04:17] <sbalneav> right, and the LTSP manual's 80 pages
[04:18] <sbalneav> And there's several Ubuntu books that have been written
[04:18] <Ahmuck-Sr> sbalneav: ok ok, i hear you
[04:18]  * Ahmuck-Sr trottles off again
[04:19] <HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Sr: I tell you what, raise enough money that I can afford to take six months off of work and write.  I'll put my 11 or so years of experience with free software in education into a book.  I'll even release it under the Creative Commons.
[04:19] <sbalneav> See, I'm not sure what's expected here.  For better or worse, there's 6 or 7 people actively working on edubuntu.
[04:19] <HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Sr: What I mean to say is, if you want something done, complaining isn't the way to do it.  Start an initiative.  Do it (or pay someone to do it) yourself.
[04:20] <Ahmuck-Sr> HedgeMage: already doing that
[04:20] <Ahmuck-Sr> i've put one individual on staff and were working togather
[04:20] <Ahmuck-Sr> i'm looking at another
[04:20] <sbalneav> But on what?  Edubuntu?
[04:20] <Ahmuck-Sr> i tend to put my money where my mouth is ...
[04:22] <sbalneav> Well, we're here, all the time.  And I don't think we've ever turned away a good idea.  If you have one, let us know.
[04:22] <HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Sr: You just seem to have negative things to say, but no concrete "this should be happening and this is how I'm helping it happen"  Whatever you are disappointed in, I don't think that either sbalneav or I really get what it is.
[04:23] <Ahmuck-Sr> *sigh*
[04:23] <Ahmuck-Sr> what i posted was not to be negative.  i'll quit chatting.
[04:23] <sbalneav> Not at all, I'm just trying to understand what it is you feel isn't being done.
[04:24] <sbalneav> If there's something more that should be done, I'm happy to talk about it.
[04:24] <sbalneav> and if it's in my power to do it, I'm happy to help.
[04:25] <HedgeMage> Ahmuck-Sr: My only frustration is that you aren't being specific.  It's hard to act on "the emporer has no clothes" as that could apply to a thousand points.  We *want* feedback and input and involvement, including yours, we just have to understand it to address it. :o
[04:33] <sbalneav> Huh!
[04:33] <sbalneav> Screen hung
[04:33] <sbalneav> that's bad.
[04:33]  * HedgeMage pokes screen
[04:33] <HedgeMage> sbalneav: I thought screens were there to keep the bugs from flying in :P
[04:36] <sbalneav> Server didn't die, I logged in via the thin client and killed Xorg
[04:36] <sbalneav> prolly some driver issue.
[04:37] <sbalneav> Holy crumb
[04:38] <sbalneav> the new pulse update fixes Mucho Bugeros
[04:40] <stgraber> yeah, crimsun closed half of Launchpad's bugs last night ;)
[04:41]  * stgraber just remembered he should update his laptop to get the new pulse, doing so now.
[04:43] <Ahmuck-Sr> available for karamic?
[04:43] <crimsun> stgraber: the actual fixed one probably won't be published for another hour
[04:43] <crimsun> last night's upload was, unfortunately, bunk :/
[04:44] <crimsun> I'll do the seeds this evening for libsdl1.2debian-foo
[04:44] <crimsun> it's in the queue after the pulse SRU
[04:47] <sbalneav> Ahmuck-Sr: The update came down for lucid
[04:48] <sbalneav> crimsun: Upstream doing lots of work?
[04:48] <sbalneav> I popped into #pulseaudio a while ago, they seemed like busy little beavers in there
[04:52] <sbalneav> yawn, been a loooong week.  Many bugs fixed, new upstream sabayon released, started picking into the handbook again.
[04:52] <sbalneav> I think I deserve an early night.
[04:52] <sbalneav> Someone can just dock my pay :)
[04:54] <HedgeMage> Goodnight, sbalneav
[04:57] <HedgeMage> hi, alkisg
[04:57] <HedgeMage> What's up?
[04:57] <alkisg> Good morning!
[04:58] <alkisg> All ok, how are you?
[05:00] <HedgeMage> Not bad.  I just had a good snack and am contemplating sleep.
[05:01] <HedgeMage> I was going to be nice and wait up until my housemate got home, but it's almost midnight and my niceness (and awakeness) is waning :P
[05:02] <crimsun> sbalneav: yeah, lots of patches submitted & merged
[05:02] <alkisg> HedgeMage: Oooh sleeping is not easy for me when my mate's missing :D
[05:03] <HedgeMage> lol
[05:03] <alkisg> Nah, I sleep like a log
[05:03] <HedgeMage> alkisg: Not a significant other, just the person I share a house with.
[05:03] <alkisg> :)
[05:05]  * HedgeMage notes that she is currently unattached, but living in three states in as many years can do that.
[05:08] <alkisg> Well usually the best work is done before any commitments start... later on there's not much time left to do any serious work ;)
[05:09] <HedgeMage> hehe :)
[05:09]  * alkisg has 3 kids so is unable to sit on his PC for 1 hour straight without waking up for something
[05:12] <HedgeMage> I have one munchkin, but he does keep me quite distracted all by himself :P
[07:01] <alkisg> !info apt-utils lucid
[16:31] <Damianos> Hello?
[16:42] <alkisg> Hello
[16:42] <sbalneav> Morning alkisg
[16:43] <alkisg> Now with upstart in Ubuntu, do we need to divert $CHROOT/sbin/start|stop|status etc, like we do with start-stop-daemon?
[16:43] <alkisg> Hi sbalneav
[16:45] <sbalneav> alkisg: I'd expect so.
[16:45] <alkisg> sbalneav: hmmm then maybe that's why I'm getting a problem with $CHROOT/proc being in use, maybe acpid actually starts in the chroot
[16:46] <alkisg> sbalneav: should I try to come up with a patch?
[16:46] <alkisg> Or will the big guns handle it? :D
[16:46] <sbalneav> Probably, isn't there a DONT_RUN_DAEMONS variable you're suppost to define?
[16:47] <sbalneav> gimme a sec, I'm just helping this fellow in #ltsp
[16:47] <alkisg> LTSP_HANDLE_DAEMONS=false? yes, but that only works for start-stop-daemon.
[16:47] <alkisg> Sure
[16:47] <sbalneav> alkisg: ah, ok, so yeah, we'll need something the same for upstart then.
[16:48] <alkisg> Right. OK, I'll propose a patch tomorrow.
[16:48] <sbalneav> Was ltsp on the 9.10 dvd?  I don't think so
[16:49] <sbalneav> but I tend not to install it like most people do.
[16:49] <sbalneav> so I'm not sure.
[16:49]  * alkisg also uses the alternate cd... :-/
[16:49] <alkisg> If the kid theme is ditched in Lucid, I'll use edubuntu instead :D
[16:50] <sbalneav> kid theme?  Gartoon?
[16:50] <alkisg> It's not only the icons... it's also the colors etc
[16:50] <alkisg> Is all that Gartoon? I don't know...
[16:51] <sbalneav> Which, the red colour for the windows?  I rather like the red.  Better than brown, anyway :)
[16:51] <sbalneav> Just change your theme
[16:51] <alkisg> sbalneav: well, do you *use* it? I tried to use it, but my eyes thought otherwise...
[16:51] <sbalneav> Yeah!
[16:51] <sbalneav> I actually LIKE gartoon
[16:51] <alkisg> It's not easy to change the theme for all users and PCs in a classroom
[16:52] <sbalneav> It's just a gconf key
[16:52] <sbalneav> And I know a certain....
[16:52] <sbalneav> project
[16:52] <alkisg> Hmmm :)
[16:52] <sbalneav> ... that would allow you to do that quite easily (*cough* sabayon *cough*)
[16:53] <alkisg> Right now I do have edubuntu Lucid with the Jaunty's Human theme :)
[16:53] <sbalneav> I *think* human's on there anyway
[16:53] <sbalneav> I don't think edubuntu removes the human theme, it just adds the edubuntu theme and makes it default
[16:53] <sbalneav> one sec...
[16:54] <alkisg> Yup, that's how I use it now
[16:54] <sbalneav> yeah, human and human clearlooks are both installed by default
[16:54] <alkisg> I just changed the theme, I didn't remove the old one or installed any new ones..
[19:18] <Ahmuck> [10:49] <sbalneav> but I tend not to install it like most people do.
[19:18] <Ahmuck> [10:49] <sbalneav> so I'm not sure.
[19:18] <Ahmuck> [10:49] * alkisg also uses the alternate cd... :-/
[20:16] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: Yes?
[20:17] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: I have to develop LTSP, and I'm looking for other things.
[20:17] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: There are other testers out there that can test other methods.
[20:18] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: I do Edubuntu in my spare time, evenings and weekends.
[20:18] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: I can't do everything.
[20:19] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: I'm currently:  Fixing bugs in educational programs, working on the handbook, an upstream LTSP developer, an upstream GNOME developer on Sabayon, working on the next way we'll do things within LTSP, etc.
[20:21] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: If you veiled point is that I *SHOULD* be doing things, like everyone else, my response would be: I'm already doing all that I can.  I probably spend upwards of 30 hours a week working on Free Software projects.  Someone ELSE will have to step forward.
[20:22] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: And I think I can speak for the other Edubuntu members when I say: I'm not unique.  Most of us on this project are working as hard as we can.
[20:31] <stgraber> sbalneav: We had LTSP on the Edubuntu DVD in 9.10 (text installer)
[20:33] <sbalneav> stgraber: I don't tend to install it from the installer.  I just generally tend to do a regular install, then install ltsp after the fact, with apt-get install ltsp-server-standalone
[20:33] <sbalneav> and then ltsp-build-client, etc.
[20:35] <stgraber> yeah, my only use of the installer is for ISO testing, usually I have a VM that only hosts the chroots, one for each ltsp-cluster component and several with a desktop install as application servers
[20:39] <highvoltage> hey stgraber and sbalneav!
[20:40] <stgraber> hi highvoltage
[20:41]  * highvoltage has been plagued by harsh headaches all day
[20:42] <dhillon-v10> highvoltage, hi there :)
[20:42] <sbalneav> Hello highvoltage, dhillon-v10
[20:42] <highvoltage> hi dhillon-v10
[20:42] <dhillon-v10> sbalneav, hi :)
[20:42] <dhillon-v10> highvoltage, what's up
[20:43] <crimsun> heads-up: I've explicitly seeded libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio in ubuntu.lucid's desktop
[20:43] <sbalneav> crimsun: cool
[20:44] <crimsun> this closes bug 203158
[20:44] <sbalneav> crimsun: alkisg will be pleased at that one.
[20:44] <highvoltage> dhillon-v10: not much today, just taking pain pills and trying to sleep, I think I'll probably doze off in a few mins
[20:44] <highvoltage> dhillon-v10: how's the website stuff coming along?
[20:45] <dhillon-v10> highvoltage, slow but pretty good, when HedgeMage comes online I'll ask about enabling some modules
[21:52] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: what do you want to work on first? :)
[21:53] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, hi there, how's it going, I'll pick anything it doesn't really matter
[22:00] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10:
[22:00] <HedgeMage> oops
[22:01] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, ?
[22:01] <HedgeMage> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bug/504562 and https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bug/504561 are very easy starting places.
[22:02] <HedgeMage> OpenID doesn't require any real configuration, just enabling.  The other one is contact module -- enable it, write a nice message, and think of a couple of categories (press inquiries, web site bugs, miscellaneous might be good) then figure out who should get those emails :o
[22:03] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: Sound good?
[22:04] <stgraber> HedgeMage: I guess the idea behind the openid module was to integrate with Launchpad and with LP teams. In this case it needs a bit of configuration (and it's not the stock drupal openid module)
[22:04] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage, sure, but one question, don't I need admin right to see the drupal interface and enable those modules
[22:04] <HedgeMage> stgraber: Integrate with LP how?  I really don't know Launchpad, this is the first I've used it in about three years.
[22:05] <stgraber> HedgeMage: LP is an openid provider and they developped two Drupal modules to use it for login and use LP teams with Drupal ACLs
[22:08] <HedgeMage> brb
[22:16] <HedgeMage> sorry about that, stgraber -- had to pull cookies out and put additional ones in to bake
[22:18] <HedgeMage> stgraber: Where would I get a look at those?
[22:18] <HedgeMage> hi, sbalneav
[22:22] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage,  don't I need admin right to see the drupal interface and enable those modules
[22:33] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: oops, thought I already gave it to you... pm me and I'll give you credentials
[22:57] <dhillon-v10> highvoltage, can you pm me your email, I need to add you as a contact on the website
[23:52] <stgraber> HedgeMage: https://code.launchpad.net/drupal-launchpad
[23:54]  * stgraber is glad to be able to read that code and use it without requiring a NDA anymore ;)
[23:56] <stgraber> It was actually implemented by Canonical after I asked for the Ubuntu QA websites and Brainstorm (both Drupal 5.x) to use LP authentication (though it hasn't been turned on yet as we need to migrate over 20000 users) but was restricted to a limited group of people under NDA for a year or so (at this point, Launchpad API and OpenID capability weren't public AFAIK, that very likely was the reason).
[23:59] <stgraber> HedgeMage: please note that if we want to receive the e-mail address as part of the LP authentication, we need to ask the Launchpad developers to whitelist our website. Otherwise we only get the username.