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humphreybchi all10:59
humphreybchave we got a better turnout tonight?10:59
humphreybccool - who's here?10:59
* godbyk waves11:00
* ubuntujenkins says hello11:00
mparmpathomasmaybe you should send a remind in the mailing list11:00
humphreybchmm where are the key people like jmburgess, dutchie, kevingardiner, tacantara, jaminday etc?11:02
humphreybcdarn it we aren't having much luck!11:03
humphreybcwe'll wait ten minutes and see who else shows up11:03
humphreybcOkay so while we're waiting check out the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda11:04
humphreybcdutchie you're here, right?11:06
dutchienow may not be the best time to start the Champions' League on FIFA 99 though11:06
humphreybcyou watch the soccer, i'll ping you if there's anything important happening11:06
humphreybcI know how you UK folks like your soccer11:07
humphreybcI guess I'm taking notes for this meeting11:07
dutchieI'm playing the football on the ps111:07
humphreybcman I remember Fifa 2000 on the computer11:08
humphreybcgood times11:08
MootBotMeeting started at 05:08. The chair is humphreybc.11:08
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]11:08
fenrehaha, "ps1" :P Good times :)11:08
humphreybcokay so agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda11:08
humphreybcfirst item on the list is "Roll Call" - I guess we've already done that :)11:08
humphreybcnext, welcome to new members... those that are here. fenre, ubuntujenkins - you guys are new, no?11:09
humphreybccool so what are you interested in doing?11:09
fenreas for now, I'm on the norwegian translation team..11:09
humphreybcit'll be good to have a translator in here for once11:09
humphreybcnormally we never hear from them :P11:10
ubuntujenkinswell I don't mind helping with writing stuff for chapter three I was going to e-mail the person listed on the blue print soon11:10
fenreGotta start somewhere11:10
mparmpathomashey, i am new too, from the greek translators11:10
humphreybcoh hi there, awesome, two translators! neat :)11:10
humphreybcubuntujenkins: Ilya is on Chapter 3, I'm sure he won't mind you helping out. I'm not sure where he is at the moment.11:11
humphreybcokay well we probably shouldn't stuff about too much - "Changes since last meeting" is next on the list.11:11
humphreybcso as you might have heard, we've got a new way of editing things11:11
humphreybcJamin Day is the head of the editing team. We assign the author to each chapter blueprint, and one editor as the "approver"11:11
humphreybcthe idea is that the author and the editor work closely together11:11
humphreybcas a team11:12
humphreybcthe editor acts as a sort of "co-ordinator" of the chapter, and the "middle man" if you like between the authors and the project leads11:12
humphreybcSo everyone okay on that?11:12
ubuntujenkinssounds good to me11:13
humphreybchey Martin11:13
humphreybcokay neat. Pressing on - new ToC - well most of you won't be affected by that as you're all new to the project. The ToC is on the wiki, and the chapter blueprints are all sorted out now.11:14
humphreybcLaTeX stuff - well not a lot happening there, godbyk do you want to briefly explain what you've done regarding the main.tex file?11:14
godbykhumphreybc: Sure.11:14
brunobernardinohi there11:14
humphreybchi brunobernardino, we've just started the meeting :)11:15
godbykOriginally all of the formatting code was included in the preamble of the main.tex file11:15
humphreybchere's the agenda for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda11:15
brunobernardinonice :)11:15
godbyk.I've moved that to our own document class file (ubuntu-manual.cls).11:15
godbykThink of it like separating the css into its own file instead of inlining it in an html file.11:15
ringsorry for the late11:15
humphreybcno problem ring, meeting agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda11:15
ringmy net was down11:15
humphreybcwe just started :)11:15
humphreybcOkay so godbyk has cleaned up our template a bit and future-proofed our manual :)11:16
humphreybcokay next, "Style and Content of Margin Notes"11:16
humphreybchi thorwil11:16
humphreybcmeeting agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda11:16
humphreybcso this is where we get into the nitty gritty11:16
humphreybcwe need to decide on a style for the margin notes11:16
humphreybcfor those who don't know, they're the ones that are currently green11:17
godbykThere appear to currently be three kinds/uses of callouts:11:17
humphreybcSo, ideas? I'll go first: I think the margin notes should probably not be coloured at all, or have a border. I think they should be in a different font and size, but not stick out too much so they detract from the main text.11:17
brunobernardinowhat do you mean with style?11:17
godbyk1. cross-references in margin notes.11:17
brunobernardinooh ok11:17
godbyk2. a box (website) pointing to a website11:17
godbyk3. a box (Definition) containing a definition11:17
brunobernardinoI was thinking you could mean style as in style of writing11:17
godbyk4. a box (Note) containing a definition.11:17
humphreybcnope style as in appearance11:18
humphreybcdo we need all four types?11:18
brunobernardinoso black, with a top border to separate from the content. font should be the same, but the size obviously smaller11:18
ubuntujenkinsmay be give them a pale cream colour and curve the conners or a red out line?11:18
thorwilhumphreybc: no box, smaller font, first line aligned with baseline of main text but rest not is rather typical for margin notes11:19
godbyklol.. wow.11:19
humphreybcUm we sort of need mockups of these really11:19
godbykPerhaps before we discuss the particular formatting, we should get an idea of what the boxes will contain.11:19
thorwilusing a box costs space for padding11:19
godbykThat will help us figure out what kind of formatting to use.11:19
humphreybcthat's a good idea godbyk11:19
brunobernardinoI agree with godbyk.11:19
humphreybcokay so margin notes11:19
godbykDo the boxes contain material that the reader *should* read, or that they can *optionally* read?11:19
humphreybcmargin notes contain....11:19
godbykSo far, the margin notes have only been used to note cross-references.11:20
humphreybcwell some of the boxes will be short definitions that are expanded on in the glossary11:20
humphreybcso they will be "optionally" read11:20
godbykFor example: "See chapter X for more information on Y."11:20
ringgo with thorwil11:20
humphreybcwell I guess they're optional11:20
humphreybcshould we keep the margin notes exclusively for cross references?11:21
ringgodbyk +111:21
ringSystem:    Host ring-desktop Kernel 2.6.31-14-generic i686 (32 bit) Distro Linux Mint 8 Helena - Main Edition11:21
thorwilnotes are ok, too11:22
brunobernardinoyes, notes too11:22
humphreybc[VOTE] Should _margin_ notes be _exclusively_ used for cross references?11:22
MootBotPlease vote on:  Should _margin_ notes be _exclusively_ used for cross references?.11:22
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot11:22
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting11:22
MootBot+1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 111:22
dutchiemargin notes, yes11:22
brunobernardinobecause it doesn't make sense for the user to read something on a page and have to go to another to read a note11:22
MootBot+1 received from dutchie. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 211:22
MootBot+1 received from ubuntujenkins. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:22
thorwilbut margin notes should be optional-to-read, nothing where you call the readers attention with fancy styling11:22
MootBot+1 received from waltmenz. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 411:23
MootBot-1 received from brunobernardino. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:23
MootBot-1 received from thorwil. 4 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 211:23
godbykAs for the other note boxes (the ones that are smack dab in the middle of the paragraphs): So far, they don't contain any material that requires them to interrupt the paragraph. I'd suggest either moving this material to the margin area or placing the box after the paragraph has finished.11:23
MootBot+1 received from fenre. 5 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:23
MootBot+1 received from ring. 6 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 411:23
dutchiegodbyk: yeah, they do sort of ruin the run of the paragraph11:23
humphreybcwhat is THE MOST important thing we'd need to tell the reader?11:24
brunobernardinoit's not that we're questioning11:24
humphreybcie. What should have the highest priority to interrupt the paragraph?11:24
brunobernardinoit's the manual's readibility11:24
thorwilshouldn't the most important be the paragraph itself?11:24
brunobernardinoyou're reading something, and then only after 4 pages you get something like: "Note: X is a Window System" (just an example)11:24
humphreybcRight but we can use notes to highlight something as well11:25
brunobernardinoof course the paragraph is important11:25
thorwilhumphreybc: could be emphasis within the text, though11:25
brunobernardinoWhen you read a book, the margin notes contain more than cross reference. They contain small simple definitions or synonyms that can help the reader11:25
humphreybcnotes can be used to provide subtle background information on something, cross referencing, or warnings. Just as some examples11:25
humphreybcPerhaps we could get rid of in-line notes all together?11:26
godbykSome examples of how others have handled warnings: I've seen them be set in a box preceding the section that's dangerous. I've seen icons used next to the paragraph that contains dangerous info.11:26
brunobernardinoyes, and merge them in margin notes11:26
doctormoI wouldn't have inline notes and such during demonstration and pratical how to sections. They'll interupt the flow11:26
humphreybcso we have a tonne of margin notes?11:26
thorwilno, no warnings in the margin, please11:26
godbykIf the definition/website/note boxes stay small, we can put those in the margin alongside the cross-references.11:26
MootBotFinal result is 6 for, 2 against. 0 abstained. Total: 411:26
brunobernardinoI was talking about notes11:26
brunobernardino(11:25:42) brunobernardino: When you read a book, the margin notes contain more than cross reference. They contain small simple definitions or synonyms that can help the read11:27
brunobernardinonot warning11:27
brunobernardinoof course warnings and "MUST READ" info has to go within the paragraph11:27
godbykbrunobernardino: I'd agree with that.11:27
brunobernardinoor it'll miss it's point11:27
godbykIf it's short and supplemental, it can go in the margins.  If it's important, it should go in the flow of the main text block.11:27
brunobernardinoexactly, godbyk understood me :)11:28
humphreybcOkay so help me summarize, warnings = in paragraph, maybe bold or bigger font or different colour or something. Cross references and "background info" (as long it's not too long) are in the margins.11:28
brunobernardinoI agree with that11:28
humphreybcAnd we have no in-line notes to interrupt the flow.11:28
godbykhumphreybc: Yes11:28
ringgo with brubernardino11:28
humphreybcOkay we need a vote on this I feel :)11:28
brunobernardinoring: bruno :)11:28
thorwilhumphreybc: other means of emphasis in the text: icons on the start of a paragraph11:29
humphreybc[VOTE] Warnings and IMPORTANT things are in the paragraph, with formatting to highlight the importance. Cross references and background info are in the margins. Remove in-line notes altogether.11:29
MootBotPlease vote on:  Warnings and IMPORTANT things are in the paragraph, with formatting to highlight the importance. Cross references and background info are in the margins. Remove in-line notes altogether..11:29
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot11:29
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting11:29
MootBot+1 received from brunobernardino. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 111:29
MootBot+1 received from godbyk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 211:29
MootBot+1 received from dutchie. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:29
MootBot+1 received from humphreybc. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 411:29
MootBot+1 received from thorwil. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 511:29
MootBot+1 received from ubuntujenkins. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 611:29
MootBot+1 received from mparmpathomas. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 711:29
MootBot+1 received from ring. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 811:29
MootBot+1 received from waltmenz. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 911:29
MootBot+1 received from fenre. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1011:29
brunobernardinoring: I was saying bruno because you said brubernardino instead of brunobernardino, but you can call me bruno to simplify :)11:30
MootBotFinal result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 1011:30
doctormohumphreybc: I'm a not voting by stander :-)11:31
brunobernardinowhy's that?11:31
humphreybcnice, so that takes care of what the notes _contain_ - now what they'll _look_ like11:31
humphreybche's not technically part of our project :)11:31
humphreybc[TOPIC] What the margin notes should look like.11:31
MootBotNew Topic:  What the margin notes should look like.11:31
humphreybcSuggestions, please.11:32
godbykI'd recommend setting them in \footnotesize, no borders or colors.11:32
* dutchie is not a designer11:32
humphreybcgodbyk: I agree.11:32
brunobernardinoas I said before, no color, smaller size, same font, with only a top border to separate from the content11:32
humphreybcBut maybe a different font? Maybe Serif?11:32
brunobernardinowhy do you think we should use a different font?11:33
humphreybchow about having them in BrickRed or Maroon?11:33
humphreybcMight look nicer :)11:33
brunobernardinoI think that if they look "too" different, they'll stand out way too much11:33
ringno color, smaller size, same font, with only a top border to separate from the content11:33
brunobernardinoI get what you're saying humphreybc, but the notes objective may fade with that11:34
MootBotLINK received:  http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf11:34
humphreybc[VOTE] Should the notes have colour?11:34
MootBotPlease vote on:  Should the notes have colour?.11:34
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot11:34
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting11:34
MootBot-1 received from brunobernardino. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -111:34
godbykI've been toying with the formatting a bit, but wanted to discuss things with everyone before I tore it apart too much. :)11:34
MootBot-1 received from ring. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -211:35
humphreybcwoah kevin, nice!11:35
MootBot-1 received from dutchie. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -311:35
MootBot-1 received from godbyk. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -411:35
mparmpathomasmaybe a backround color would be useful, think different colors for websites, cross references and anything else written in margins, and a guide in the beggining. Margin notes are optional and with the color system the reader can choose what to read...soft colors...so the keeper keeps attraction in the main text11:35
MootBot-1 received from fenre. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -511:35
ubuntujenkinsI think just an outline11:35
MootBot-1 received from waltmenz. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -611:35
MootBotFinal result is 0 for, 6 against. 0 abstained. Total: -611:35
mparmpathomaskeeper=reader* sry11:35
brunobernardinomparmpathomas: I don't think there'll be so much of each type of content you mentioned in the margin notes for that to be of use for the reader.11:36
dutchiegodbyk: I like that, we need to get rid of those inline notes now11:36
humphreybcOkay so no colour, margin notes - left or right side?11:36
godbykdutchie: Yeah, that's now on my TODO list. :-)11:36
humphreybcI personally think right side11:36
godbykhumphreybc: Depends. Are we wanting to set it up on twoside, so that we can print it on both sides of the paper?11:37
ringleft aligned11:37
humphreybcyou read left to right, it looks nicer. I don't like having the text indented too much when we don't have any notes.11:37
godbyk(So it looks more like a book when printed.)11:37
humphreybcWell we'll have to have a 2 pages per page option, to save paper, yes.11:37
humphreybcBut by default, no it'll just be A4 probably11:37
godbykhighvolt1ge: Then the notes should go on the outside margins.11:37
godbykWhoops, meant humphreybc, not highvolt1ge.11:38
brunobernardinoyes, on the right11:38
godbyk(Silly xchat autocomplete!)11:38
brunobernardinohehe :)11:39
humphreybcI think the right, I mean not many people are going to actually print this thing - it's going to be about 80-100 pages at my estimate, which makes 50 pages when printed 2 up. And lots of screenshots too...11:39
humphreybceven if it is printed in bw, it'll still use a tonne of ink11:39
humphreybcplus our research suggests that most people won't be inclined to print11:39
brunobernardinoI think we should work on making it smaller in number of pages11:39
humphreybcQuestion 411:39
c7pdoes this help (http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278)?11:39
humphreybcc7p: URL doesn't work11:40
MootBotLINK received:  http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=27811:40
humphreybcbruno: yeah we can work on slimming it down after we've got to alpha11:40
humphreybcoh link didn't work due to ?11:40
humphreybc[VOTE] Should the margin notes be on the right?11:41
MootBotPlease vote on:  Should the margin notes be on the right?.11:41
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot11:41
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting11:41
MootBot+1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 111:41
MootBot+1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 211:41
MootBot+1 received from waltmenz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:41
MootBot+1 received from mparmpathomas. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 411:41
MootBot+1 received from vish. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 511:41
MootBot+1 received from brunobernardino. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 611:42
humphreybcdutchie: technically that would be +-1 :P11:42
MootBot+1 received from ring. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 711:42
* vish throws out dutchie's invalid vote ;p11:42
MootBot+1 received from fenre. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 811:42
godbykhttp://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf  (I updated the note callouts to be in the margin.)11:42
MootBotLINK received:  http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf  (I updated the note callouts to be in the margin.)11:42
humphreybc(the way I am running votes tonight is basically raising the topic, waiting for some discussions and opinions. If there are none then I will hold a vote)11:42
MootBotFinal result is 8 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 811:43
humphreybcSo on the right I guess11:43
godbykCool, since that's the default. :-)  (No extra coding for me!)11:43
humphreybchaha nice11:43
brunobernardinohave you thought about making the margin notes go in the bottom?11:44
brunobernardinofooter notes?11:44
brunobernardinojust brainstorming here :)11:44
humphreybcbruno: that would probably use too much space in the end11:44
humphreybci'm not sure11:44
godbykbrunobernardino: We could do that, too.  I guess it depends on how easily people should be able to read the notes.11:44
humphreybcI like margin better11:44
brunobernardinoI get the sense it attracts too much attention on the right11:45
humphreybcIt suits a "manual" more, I think.11:45
godbykIf you don't want people to read them, footnotes are good.  :-)11:45
brunobernardinogodbyk: that's mean :) I read footnotes11:45
godbykHaving a wider margin is also handy for those who want to take notes.11:45
humphreybcgodbyk: good point11:45
humphreybcI think we'll go with margin notes, thanks anyway bruno :)11:45
ubuntujenkinsif there are multiple notes on a page and they are in the footer you have to reference them11:45
godbykbrunobernardino: I do, too.  But I hate having to disrupt my place in the paragraph to immediately read the footnote.11:45
godbykEndnotes are even worse. Keeping two bookmarks.  Ugh.11:46
brunobernardinono problem, that's what we're here to do, discuss ideas, and see if they suit or not the objectives11:46
humphreybc[TOPIC] How we are going to format the warnings etc11:46
MootBotNew Topic:  How we are going to format the warnings etc11:46
humphreybcSo, different colour? Bigger font? Bold? Underlined? Icons?11:46
godbykWe might want to discuss warnings after we have some to format.  So far I haven't seen the callouts used as warnings.11:46
brunobernardinoyes, but we can imagine some11:47
brunobernardinoI believe we have two good options, imo:11:47
humphreybcWell there will be plenty in chapter 7 :P11:47
brunobernardinoA small squared box on the left, OR a wide rectangle on the top of the paragraph11:47
humphreybcI think we should make them a wee bit bigger, perhaps bold (either or, not both) and have a warning symbol to the left of them in the left margin.11:47
humphreybcI'm not a huge fan of boxes or borders around text11:48
brunobernardinothese both should have a thin border with a very faded background and an image on the left11:48
brunobernardinomaybe I'm thinking too much website-style, my bad :)11:48
godbykI think just having a warning icon to the left of an indented paragraph is enough.11:48
humphreybcand an icon like this: http://www.rhealth.com.au/content/Image/600px-warning_icon_svg.png11:48
ubuntujenkinsgodbyk +111:48
godbykI think that most boxes and borders are completely unnecessary.11:48
humphreybcgodbyk, I agree11:48
ubuntujenkinsexactly like that humphreybc11:49
brunobernardinoyes humphreybc I like that icon11:49
godbykhumphreybc: Exactly like the icon I was thinking about.11:49
vishhumphreybc: use icons from humanity as far as possible , we already have the warning icon11:49
ubuntujenkinsa little explination at the start of the document to explain what the icon means11:49
humphreybc[VOTE] Warnings should be in a paragraph, with an icon like the one above, that sits in the left margin, indented.11:49
MootBotPlease vote on:  Warnings should be in a paragraph, with an icon like the one above, that sits in the left margin, indented..11:49
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot11:49
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting11:49
MootBot+1 received from brunobernardino. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 111:49
MootBot+1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 211:49
MootBot+1 received from godbyk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 311:49
humphreybcvish: yeah we will, that was just the easiest one for me to grab as an example11:49
vishok then +111:50
MootBot+1 received from humphreybc. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 411:50
MootBot+1 received from vish. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 511:50
MootBot+1 received from waltmenz. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 611:51
MootBot+1 received from dutchie. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 711:51
MootBotFinal result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 711:51
humphreybcoh noes!11:51
humphreybci'll put it as 811:51
brunobernardinooh noes!11:51
fenresorry about that :P11:52
humphreybc[TOPIC] Making the project more self-documenting11:52
brunobernardinonp, humphreybc's bad there ;)11:52
MootBotNew Topic:  Making the project more self-documenting11:52
humphreybcOkay so let me explain11:52
humphreybcAt the moment we have a gargantuan wiki11:52
humphreybcAnd, although I try to make it easy11:52
humphreybcIt can be difficult for users to know what's happening11:52
humphreybcSo I propose more documentation INSIDE the branch11:52
humphreybcie, more info i the readme, perhaps a better readme with formatting11:53
dutchieyou talking READMEs?11:53
humphreybcAnd I also think each chapter should have a file with "notes" in it on what the chapter should contain, and anything else that is important11:53
humphreybcI'm going to re-work the wiki this week sometime and cut down on some of the crap :)11:53
brunobernardinoI'm not sure I'm getting what you want :S11:54
ubuntujenkinsas long as it is in one place i don't mind it just shouldn't be some on the wiki and some in the notes.11:54
godbykAnd if it's in multiple places, how will it stay in sync?11:55
humphreybcah well that's up to me lol11:55
humphreybcSo everyone is happy with the current documentation?11:55
godbykThere seems to be more LaTeX how-to stuff in the readme.txt file than in the style guide (wiki), for instance.11:55
dutchie+1 for putting it all in the READMEs11:55
humphreybcwhat the WHOLE wiki?11:55
dutchiewell, no11:56
humphreybcjust the tex stuff?11:56
dutchiebut everything you need to know to do a basic additio11:56
humphreybcI think the style guide etc should definitely be in the branch11:56
humphreybcand if we could get some basic HTML going to actually format it a wee bit to make it easier to read, then that would be even better11:56
brunobernardinoI believe "tech" stuff that's not really relevant to the users who seek information about the manual itself (what's on it, download it, etc.) should go in some README file, yes, for the sake of making the wiki more "user-friendly"11:56
humphreybcSo who's going to do all the readme stuff?11:57
brunobernardinoQuoting: "(11:55:29) humphreybc: ah well that's up to me lol"11:57
humphreybcyes well11:57
humphreybcI'll see how I go11:57
humphreybcI'm not a whizz at the tech stuff though, and I didn't write the style guide11:58
humphreybcI can do little changes to keep stuff up to date11:58
godbykI can write up LaTeX how-to stuff and maintain a style guide, I s'pose.11:58
brunobernardinoI'm just thinking whoever does the technical stuff would be most fit to add changes in a readme file11:58
humphreybcbut not really keen on writing a large HTML how to tex doc11:58
humphreybcwell that would be godbyk and dutchie11:58
dutchieI'm happy to do that11:58
brunobernardinoI don't think an "how to tex" doc would be a god idea, aren't there many out there already?11:58
humphreybcyeah but relevant to our project11:59
godbykbrunobernardino: More of a how-to for the ubuntu-manual-related TeX.11:59
brunobernardinook then, so it would be in the readme11:59
brunobernardinobut in plain texto11:59
godbykOur own commands like \marginnote, \begin{terminal}, etc.11:59
humphreybcwell plain text at a minimum... even odt could work better11:59
brunobernardinoI don't see how an html manual would help making it easier to write/maintain11:59
humphreybcit won't, it'll just be easier for newbies to read :)11:59
brunobernardinowell, do newbies care about tex?12:00
humphreybccan you imagine if the entire wiki was just plain text on one page?12:00
brunobernardinono, of course not12:00
humphreybcsure, we've had tonnes of newbies want to help12:00
brunobernardinobut I believe it's meant for two different types of public12:00
humphreybcwell they might be newbies at tex, but not at everything else12:00
brunobernardinooh, ok12:00
humphreybcFor example, people who are english teachers and want to help edit, but have never used latex before12:00
brunobernardinobut so we're back to what I was saying before12:00
ubuntujenkinsI am new a tex12:00
godbykI think that the TeX stuff used by the authors is fairly minimal.12:00
brunobernardinohow-to tex can be learnt easily somewhere else. What should go there is the how-to tex for ubuntu-manual12:01
humphreybcOkay so improve the existing readme.txt?12:01
ubuntujenkinsseems easy enough I have no clue how to add commands to make boxes but if they are there I can use them12:01
humphreybcLeave the stuff on the wiki?12:01
brunobernardinoI'm just trying to make it easier to maintain, like you said, this is the "Making the project more self-documenting" topic12:01
ubuntujenkinsleave it on the wiki12:01
humphreybcdutchie or godbyk perhaps you could go over the readme.txt and just update it, and also make sure there is a clear point to our wiki for more infor12:02
godbykhumphreybc: Sure.12:02
humphreybc[TOPIC] Format of the Credits12:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Format of the Credits12:02
humphreybcSo for this I was just thinking a two column layout, without bullet points12:02
humphreybcAnd we could probably alphabetize the list of people12:03
fenresounds good12:03
humphreybcOh and maybe a couple of pts smaller font, to save space12:03
humphreybcwe want to fit it all on one page if possible12:03
godbykI can play with that pretty easily.12:03
ubuntujenkinswe could probably do three columns12:03
humphreybcgodbyk: how easy is a two column layout list without bullet points?12:03
godbykEasy peasy.12:03
humphreybcyeah three columns even12:03
humphreybcsounds good12:03
brunobernardinoI thought the font was too big12:04
humphreybcyeah it's just default font for now12:04
humphreybcbut smaller would be swell12:04
humphreybc[TOPIC] Style of the Footer - and do we want/need a header?12:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Style of the Footer - and do we want/need a header?12:04
godbykWhat are we including in the credit lines? Just author names? Titles? Emails/websites?12:05
humphreybcJust names12:05
humphreybcoh and the title of each thing12:05
humphreybcso like how it is now12:05
humphreybcalthough I might remove the "Project Leads" section12:05
humphreybcI don't know how necessary that is. We should probably have some way of recognizing the people who put the most effort in, but we can come to that later.12:05
godbykFor the running feet, I'd say just include the page number (unless you expect people will print the manual, then perhaps the manual title and chapter name).12:05
ubuntujenkinspage number  and title and chapter name any way12:06
humphreybcSure and colour/font size etc? I think it looks pretty good how it is. We may as well include the title and chapter name, if we have space.12:06
ubuntujenkinssmall font slightly grey/pail black12:07
godbykWhy clutter the page by repeating the book title over and over?  Surely you've never forgotten which book you're reading.12:07
brunobernardinoI believe the manual title + chapter name (left) and page number (right) - on the footer12:07
humphreybcmaybe just chapter title on the left, page number right12:07
brunobernardinolike ubuntujenkins said12:07
humphreybcah beat me to it :)12:07
godbykThe chapter title is handy if you're flipping through the book to find the start of the chapter or a section referenced in that chapter.12:07
brunobernardinogodbyk: you're right, no manual title12:07
humphreybcAlthough "Ubuntu Manual - Preferences and Hardware" doesn't take up much room when it's small and in grey or light red12:07
godbykBut generally, putting the book title and author name on each page seems pointless to me.12:07
humphreybcwell then perhaps just chapter title12:08
humphreybcchapter number?12:08
ubuntujenkinschapter Title12:08
humphreybcPreferences and Hardware or 6. Preferences and Hardware ?12:08
brunobernardinoit can be useful for looking up a chapter12:08
brunobernardinowe memorize the number easier12:08
humphreybcnumber + title I reckon12:08
godbykThe number can be handy if you told someone to see chapter 10 for more info.12:08
humphreybcokay number + title it is12:08
brunobernardinoor lookup in the index12:08
ubuntujenkinsI don't like remembering numbers so both for the people who don't like names12:09
brunobernardinohehe :)12:09
humphreybcAnd header? We don't need it, nor want it.12:09
humphreybcI just thought I'd cover all possible options.12:09
humphreybcdoes anyone own the "Official Ubuntu Book"?12:09
brunobernardinothis' embarassing, but no :(12:10
humphreybcrighto moving on then12:11
humphreybc[TOPIC] Font colours review12:11
MootBotNew Topic:  Font colours review12:11
humphreybcI think they look good how they are.12:11
godbykWe should consider how they'll look if printed, too.  (They may look fine, I haven't really looked yet.)12:12
humphreybcBlack for chapter headings, maroon for section headings, browny/gold for subsections.12:12
humphreybcAh true12:12
humphreybcI might print off a few pages to test it out12:12
humphreybcalthough what's it set to atm? A4 or US Letter?12:12
godbykLetter still.12:12
brunobernardinoI like the font colors atm12:12
brunobernardinomake it A4, it's better, right?12:13
humphreybcYeah that's coming up on the agenda12:13
godbykAlso, it might be good to pick colors from the selected cover page, but I don't think it's required.12:13
humphreybc[VOTE] Font colours, stay the same.12:13
MootBotPlease vote on:  Font colours, stay the same..12:13
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot12:13
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting12:13
MootBot+1 received from ubuntujenkins. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 112:13
MootBotAbstention received from godbyk. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 112:13
humphreybcThe selected title page artist can tweak their colours to match ours12:13
MootBot+1 received from humphreybc. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 212:13
MootBot+1 received from brunobernardino. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 312:13
MootBot+1 received from dutchie. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 412:13
MootBot+1 received from waltmenz. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 512:13
brunobernardinohumphreybc: yup12:14
humphreybcfinal call for vote12:14
brunobernardinofenre: you there? vote now! :)12:14
MootBotFinal result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 512:14
brunobernardinoI think that's a wrap. We're decreasing on number of votes :|12:14
humphreybcWe are.12:15
humphreybcBut we need to decide on a couple more things12:15
humphreybcI'll combine them all :)12:15
brunobernardinohmm, it's getting "late" for me also. how many more topics?12:15
humphreybcIt's 1:20am here12:15
humphreybcand I have class in under 8 hours12:15
brunobernardinoit's 12:20 here, I gotta prepare lunch :)12:15
humphreybc[TOPIC] Page Size - A4? Screenshot resolution? Are we still on track?12:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Page Size - A4? Screenshot resolution? Are we still on track?12:16
brunobernardinoI'm UTC :)12:16
humphreybcI just condensed the important things12:16
godbykI think the paper size should depend on the language.12:16
humphreybcbruno that's handy12:16
godbykSince we're doing translations anyway.12:16
humphreybcThat makes sense12:16
humphreybcCan we automate that?12:16
brunobernardinoPage Size - A4, Screenshot 800x600, Yes.12:16
godbykre: screenshot resolution, what are our options?12:16
humphreybc800x600 would look crap when printed at a high dpi though12:16
fenresorry, humphreybc. Was temp afk12:17
brunobernardinowell, but for someone not wanting to spend too much ink12:17
humphreybcWell we can't have it too high that they're too large in file size, but they can't be too low that they are unreadable when printed.12:17
godbykAny screenshots will look crappy if they're scaled badly.  There's no helping that, really.12:17
humphreybcI think we'll have to do some testing12:17
dutchieIt'd be fairly easy to automate if it was possible to specify on the cli what the paper size is12:17
brunobernardinoso 1024x768 probably is the most suitable12:17
brunobernardinonot too big, not too small12:17
humphreybcand .png12:17
dutchieI mean, I can sed it, but there should be a better way12:17
brunobernardinoyes, png definately!12:17
godbykdutchie: do you know how the translations are getting pulled back in to LaTeX?12:18
godbykwe can probably use that same method to set the paper size and language for babel.12:18
dutchiepo4a generates a translated main.tex file12:18
godbykwe should also look at using csquotes or similar to handle language-specific quotation styles.12:18
godbykdutchie: cool.  we can handle the paper size and whatnot from there, then.12:18
* humphreybc lets the tech folks talk :P12:18
dutchieso, you run po4a, and it makes say fr/main.tex12:19
humphreybcneat. So that's those two - now, "Are we on track?"12:19
humphreybcThree weeks till alpha.12:19
humphreybcWe're supposed to have all content in place by then, bar screenshots12:19
godbykno clue, I'm just writing LaTeX code. :-)12:19
brunobernardinoI'm just translating, and I have a question about that after we finish this topic12:20
dutchietranslations seem to be continuing apace12:20
humphreybcand what about main content12:20
humphreybcWe seem to be missing a fair chunk12:20
humphreybcAlthough 3 weeks...12:20
humphreybcIt's only been 2 weeks since we actually really started12:20
dutchieI'm not sure12:20
brunobernardinoI do believe there's some text missing.12:20
humphreybcSo I think we should be able to make it12:20
dutchieI've always said it'll be close :)12:20
humphreybcThere is a *lot* of text missing12:20
brunobernardinoyes, it's not impossible12:20
humphreybcWe've got ages till beta anyway12:20
humphreybcand then another 6 weeks after that to RC12:21
humphreybcso we should be okay12:21
humphreybc[TOPIC] Questions and Feedback12:21
MootBotNew Topic:  Questions and Feedback12:21
humphreybcOkay go for it guys12:21
godbykI have a few questions:12:21
godbykDo we want to have a list of acronyms?12:21
godbykDo we want a glossary?12:21
brunobernardinoI was just an euphemism12:21
godbyk(I added an index the other day, but we'll need to add more stuff to it and decide what should be indexed.)12:22
godbykAFAIK, we're not required to use (R) and TM, so why are we?  (They look ugly. :-))12:22
brunobernardinoI'd like to know if what happened about a week ago with the translations is likely to happen again (most of them "kaput")12:22
godbykAre there any 'how do I..?' questions from authors related to LaTeX that I can help answer?12:22
dutchiebrunobernardino: I don't think so12:23
godbyk.. I think that's most of the questions I had on my list. :-)12:23
humphreybc"Do we want to have a list of acronyms" - I don't think so. We can just try and explain them in brackets when each one is encountered for the first time. Otherwise we'll have a tonne of crap at the end of the manual: credits, glossary, index, acronym list etc etc12:23
humphreybc"Do we want a glossary" - most definitely. Many *nix terms will be new to users, so we should have a glossary.12:24
humphreybcdutchie what was the cause of the translation meltdown?12:24
thorwilwhat about acronyms in the glossary? :)12:24
humphreybcthorwil yeah that would make sense, for particularly difficult ones I guess.12:25
dutchiehumphreybc: launchpad not importing the old ones12:25
humphreybcah ha12:25
dutchieshould be fixed now12:25
dutchieor, it will be when I next update them12:25
humphreybcI guess that's it12:26
fenreall right :)12:26
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dutchieblimey, another 90 minute meeting12:26
thorwilindentation and title page have been discussed?12:26
humphreybcI'll put up a summary on the wiki with vote results and stuff that will now change due to this meeting, as well as email the mailing list the changes :)12:26
humphreybcdutchie: god i know!12:26
dutchienext meeting?12:26
dutchiewe going for 2000 UTC on saturday?12:27
humphreybcindentation - not really. Title page, no, we'll just keep going how we are going with feedback on the wiki page and proposals12:27
humphreybcyeah we'll change to 2000 UTC on saturady12:27
humphreybcwe might have a break for next weekend12:27
humphreybcI better do some work for my exams12:27
thorwilcool, no conflict with lunch, then :)12:27
fenreisn't that what weekdays are for?12:27
* godbyk is glad he's finally done with classes. just a dissertation left. :-/12:27
humphreybcRighto guys, thanks for coming. Have a good week! I also have some news from the talks with the docs team that I will share tomorrow12:28
dutchiegood news?12:28
MootBotMeeting finished at 06:28.12:28
humphreybcYep it's good news.12:28
humphreybcnight all!12:29
brunobernardinohehe godbyk12:30
brunobernardinodutchie: ok then, I'll continue translating to Portuguese on monday or tuesday.12:30
brunobernardinoI'd love to help in so many more ways, but I have no spare time at all, and translating is what I found I could do that would not take me too much time and really be of use anyway12:30
brunobernardinothese meetings also :)12:30
brunobernardinooh, how about the next meeting hour? Have you guys decided on that yet?12:30
brunobernardinook, I g2g, cya later ppl. I'll stay online to check your answers later on12:31
fenreI guess it will be posted on the mailing list12:31
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abhi_anyone here related to Ubuntu Manual Marathi conversion group?14:15
discotekawhat is marathi?14:15
abhi_Marathi is our language.14:16
abhi_Maharashtra state of India.14:16
discotekasorry - no here for English :D14:16
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gnomefreakn/win 120:04
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FirepowerforfreeThat's Firepowerforfreedom23:06
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