=== asac_ is now known as asac === KatieOffline is now known as KatieKitty === KatieKitty is now known as KatieOffline === KatieOffline is now known as KatieKitty === KatieKitty is now known as KatieOffline === KatieOffline is now known as KatieKitty [10:59] hi all [10:59] have we got a better turnout tonight? [10:59] yup [10:59] cool - who's here? [11:00] * godbyk waves [11:00] * ubuntujenkins says hello [11:00] maybe you should send a remind in the mailing list [11:02] hmm where are the key people like jmburgess, dutchie, kevingardiner, tacantara, jaminday etc? [11:03] darn it we aren't having much luck! [11:03] we'll wait ten minutes and see who else shows up [11:04] Okay so while we're waiting check out the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda [11:06] dutchie you're here, right? [11:06] o/ [11:06] sweet [11:06] now may not be the best time to start the Champions' League on FIFA 99 though [11:06] heh [11:06] well [11:06] you watch the soccer, i'll ping you if there's anything important happening [11:07] I know how you UK folks like your soccer [11:07] I guess I'm taking notes for this meeting [11:07] I'm playing the football on the ps1 [11:07] OH [11:08] hahaha [11:08] man I remember Fifa 2000 on the computer [11:08] good times [11:08] anyway, [11:08] #startmeeting [11:08] Meeting started at 05:08. The chair is humphreybc. [11:08] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [11:08] haha, "ps1" :P Good times :) [11:08] okay so agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda [11:08] first item on the list is "Roll Call" - I guess we've already done that :) [11:09] next, welcome to new members... those that are here. fenre, ubuntujenkins - you guys are new, no? [11:09] indeed [11:09] cool so what are you interested in doing? [11:09] as for now, I'm on the norwegian translation team.. [11:09] awesome [11:09] it'll be good to have a translator in here for once [11:10] normally we never hear from them :P [11:10] well I don't mind helping with writing stuff for chapter three I was going to e-mail the person listed on the blue print soon [11:10] Gotta start somewhere [11:10] hey, i am new too, from the greek translators [11:10] oh hi there, awesome, two translators! neat :) [11:11] ubuntujenkins: Ilya is on Chapter 3, I'm sure he won't mind you helping out. I'm not sure where he is at the moment. [11:11] okay well we probably shouldn't stuff about too much - "Changes since last meeting" is next on the list. [11:11] so as you might have heard, we've got a new way of editing things [11:11] Jamin Day is the head of the editing team. We assign the author to each chapter blueprint, and one editor as the "approver" [11:11] the idea is that the author and the editor work closely together [11:12] as a team [11:12] the editor acts as a sort of "co-ordinator" of the chapter, and the "middle man" if you like between the authors and the project leads [11:12] So everyone okay on that? [11:13] Howdy [11:13] sounds good to me [11:13] hey Martin [11:14] okay neat. Pressing on - new ToC - well most of you won't be affected by that as you're all new to the project. The ToC is on the wiki, and the chapter blueprints are all sorted out now. [11:14] LaTeX stuff - well not a lot happening there, godbyk do you want to briefly explain what you've done regarding the main.tex file? [11:14] humphreybc: Sure. [11:14] hi there [11:15] hi brunobernardino, we've just started the meeting :) [11:15] Originally all of the formatting code was included in the preamble of the main.tex file [11:15] here's the agenda for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda [11:15] nice :) [11:15] .I've moved that to our own document class file (ubuntu-manual.cls). [11:15] Think of it like separating the css into its own file instead of inlining it in an html file. [11:15] sorry for the late [11:15] no problem ring, meeting agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda [11:15] my net was down [11:15] we just started :) [11:16] Okay so godbyk has cleaned up our template a bit and future-proofed our manual :) [11:16] okay next, "Style and Content of Margin Notes" [11:16] hi thorwil [11:16] meeting agenda here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Agenda [11:16] hi! [11:16] so this is where we get into the nitty gritty [11:16] we need to decide on a style for the margin notes [11:17] for those who don't know, they're the ones that are currently green [11:17] There appear to currently be three kinds/uses of callouts: [11:17] So, ideas? I'll go first: I think the margin notes should probably not be coloured at all, or have a border. I think they should be in a different font and size, but not stick out too much so they detract from the main text. [11:17] what do you mean with style? [11:17] 1. cross-references in margin notes. [11:17] oh ok [11:17] 2. a box (website) pointing to a website [11:17] 3. a box (Definition) containing a definition [11:17] I was thinking you could mean style as in style of writing [11:17] 4. a box (Note) containing a definition. [11:18] nope style as in appearance [11:18] hmm [11:18] do we need all four types? [11:18] so black, with a top border to separate from the content. font should be the same, but the size obviously smaller [11:18] may be give them a pale cream colour and curve the conners or a red out line? [11:19] humphreybc: no box, smaller font, first line aligned with baseline of main text but rest not is rather typical for margin notes [11:19] lol.. wow. [11:19] heh [11:19] lovely [11:19] Um we sort of need mockups of these really [11:19] Perhaps before we discuss the particular formatting, we should get an idea of what the boxes will contain. [11:19] using a box costs space for padding [11:19] sure [11:19] That will help us figure out what kind of formatting to use. [11:19] that's a good idea godbyk [11:19] I agree with godbyk. [11:19] okay so margin notes [11:19] Do the boxes contain material that the reader *should* read, or that they can *optionally* read? [11:19] margin notes contain.... [11:20] So far, the margin notes have only been used to note cross-references. [11:20] well some of the boxes will be short definitions that are expanded on in the glossary [11:20] so they will be "optionally" read [11:20] For example: "See chapter X for more information on Y." [11:20] yea [11:20] go with thorwil [11:20] well I guess they're optional [11:21] should we keep the margin notes exclusively for cross references? [11:21] godbyk +1 [11:21] System: Host ring-desktop Kernel 2.6.31-14-generic i686 (32 bit) Distro Linux Mint 8 Helena - Main Edition [11:22] yes [11:22] anyone? [11:22] yes [11:22] notes are ok, too [11:22] yes, notes too [11:22] [VOTE] Should _margin_ notes be _exclusively_ used for cross references? [11:22] Please vote on: Should _margin_ notes be _exclusively_ used for cross references?. [11:22] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [11:22] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [11:22] =1 [11:22] oops [11:22] +1 [11:22] +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [11:22] :P [11:22] margin notes, yes [11:22] +1 [11:22] because it doesn't make sense for the user to read something on a page and have to go to another to read a note [11:22] +1 received from dutchie. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [11:22] +1 [11:22] +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [11:22] but margin notes should be optional-to-read, nothing where you call the readers attention with fancy styling [11:23] +1 [11:23] +1 received from waltmenz. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [11:23] -1 [11:23] -1 received from brunobernardino. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [11:23] -1 [11:23] -1 received from thorwil. 4 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [11:23] As for the other note boxes (the ones that are smack dab in the middle of the paragraphs): So far, they don't contain any material that requires them to interrupt the paragraph. I'd suggest either moving this material to the margin area or placing the box after the paragraph has finished. [11:23] +1 [11:23] +1 received from fenre. 5 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [11:23] +1 [11:23] +1 received from ring. 6 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [11:23] godbyk: yeah, they do sort of ruin the run of the paragraph [11:24] what is THE MOST important thing we'd need to tell the reader? [11:24] it's not that we're questioning [11:24] ie. What should have the highest priority to interrupt the paragraph? [11:24] it's the manual's readibility [11:24] :) [11:24] Warnings? [11:24] Definitions? [11:24] shouldn't the most important be the paragraph itself? [11:24] you're reading something, and then only after 4 pages you get something like: "Note: X is a Window System" (just an example) [11:25] Right but we can use notes to highlight something as well [11:25] of course the paragraph is important [11:25] humphreybc: could be emphasis within the text, though [11:25] When you read a book, the margin notes contain more than cross reference. They contain small simple definitions or synonyms that can help the reader [11:25] notes can be used to provide subtle background information on something, cross referencing, or warnings. Just as some examples [11:26] Perhaps we could get rid of in-line notes all together? [11:26] Some examples of how others have handled warnings: I've seen them be set in a box preceding the section that's dangerous. I've seen icons used next to the paragraph that contains dangerous info. [11:26] yes, and merge them in margin notes [11:26] I wouldn't have inline notes and such during demonstration and pratical how to sections. They'll interupt the flow [11:26] so we have a tonne of margin notes? [11:26] no, no warnings in the margin, please [11:26] If the definition/website/note boxes stay small, we can put those in the margin alongside the cross-references. [11:26] [ENDVOTE] [11:26] Final result is 6 for, 2 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4 [11:26] I was talking about notes [11:27] (11:25:42) brunobernardino: When you read a book, the margin notes contain more than cross reference. They contain small simple definitions or synonyms that can help the read [11:27] not warning [11:27] warnings* [11:27] yeah [11:27] of course warnings and "MUST READ" info has to go within the paragraph [11:27] brunobernardino: I'd agree with that. [11:27] or it'll miss it's point [11:27] If it's short and supplemental, it can go in the margins. If it's important, it should go in the flow of the main text block. [11:28] exactly, godbyk understood me :) [11:28] yes [11:28] Okay so help me summarize, warnings = in paragraph, maybe bold or bigger font or different colour or something. Cross references and "background info" (as long it's not too long) are in the margins. [11:28] yup [11:28] yes [11:28] I agree with that [11:28] And we have no in-line notes to interrupt the flow. [11:28] humphreybc: Yes [11:28] go with brubernardino [11:28] Okay we need a vote on this I feel :) [11:28] +1 [11:28] ring: bruno :) [11:29] humphreybc: other means of emphasis in the text: icons on the start of a paragraph [11:29] ok [11:29] bruno [11:29] [VOTE] Warnings and IMPORTANT things are in the paragraph, with formatting to highlight the importance. Cross references and background info are in the margins. Remove in-line notes altogether. [11:29] Please vote on: Warnings and IMPORTANT things are in the paragraph, with formatting to highlight the importance. Cross references and background info are in the margins. Remove in-line notes altogether.. [11:29] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [11:29] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 received from brunobernardino. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 received from godbyk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [11:29] +1 received from dutchie. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 received from humphreybc. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [11:29] +1 received from thorwil. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [11:29] bbl [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 received from mparmpathomas. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7 [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 received from ring. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8 [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 received from waltmenz. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9 [11:29] +1 [11:29] +1 received from fenre. 10 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 10 [11:29] doctormo? [11:30] ring: I was saying bruno because you said brubernardino instead of brunobernardino, but you can call me bruno to simplify :) [11:30] [ENDVOTE] [11:30] Final result is 10 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 10 [11:31] humphreybc: I'm a not voting by stander :-) [11:31] why's that? [11:31] nice, so that takes care of what the notes _contain_ - now what they'll _look_ like [11:31] he's not technically part of our project :) [11:31] [TOPIC] What the margin notes should look like. [11:31] New Topic: What the margin notes should look like. [11:31] ok [11:32] Suggestions, please. [11:32] I'd recommend setting them in \footnotesize, no borders or colors. [11:32] * dutchie is not a designer [11:32] godbyk: I agree. [11:32] as I said before, no color, smaller size, same font, with only a top border to separate from the content [11:32] But maybe a different font? Maybe Serif? [11:33] why do you think we should use a different font? [11:33] how about having them in BrickRed or Maroon? [11:33] Might look nicer :) [11:33] I think that if they look "too" different, they'll stand out way too much [11:33] no color, smaller size, same font, with only a top border to separate from the content [11:34] I get what you're saying humphreybc, but the notes objective may fade with that [11:34] true [11:34] http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf [11:34] LINK received: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf [11:34] [VOTE] Should the notes have colour? [11:34] Please vote on: Should the notes have colour?. [11:34] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [11:34] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [11:34] -1 [11:34] -1 received from brunobernardino. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1 [11:34] I've been toying with the formatting a bit, but wanted to discuss things with everyone before I tore it apart too much. :) [11:35] -1 [11:35] -1 received from ring. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2 [11:35] woah kevin, nice! [11:35] -1 [11:35] -1 received from dutchie. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3 [11:35] -1 [11:35] -1 received from godbyk. 0 for, 4 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -4 [11:35] maybe a backround color would be useful, think different colors for websites, cross references and anything else written in margins, and a guide in the beggining. Margin notes are optional and with the color system the reader can choose what to read...soft colors...so the keeper keeps attraction in the main text [11:35] -1 [11:35] -1 received from fenre. 0 for, 5 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -5 [11:35] I think just an outline [11:35] -1 [11:35] -1 received from waltmenz. 0 for, 6 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -6 [11:35] [ENDVOTE] [11:35] Final result is 0 for, 6 against. 0 abstained. Total: -6 [11:35] keeper=reader* sry [11:36] mparmpathomas: I don't think there'll be so much of each type of content you mentioned in the margin notes for that to be of use for the reader. [11:36] godbyk: I like that, we need to get rid of those inline notes now [11:36] Okay so no colour, margin notes - left or right side? [11:36] dutchie: Yeah, that's now on my TODO list. :-) [11:36] I personally think right side [11:37] humphreybc: Depends. Are we wanting to set it up on twoside, so that we can print it on both sides of the paper? [11:37] left aligned [11:37] you read left to right, it looks nicer. I don't like having the text indented too much when we don't have any notes. [11:37] (So it looks more like a book when printed.) [11:37] Well we'll have to have a 2 pages per page option, to save paper, yes. [11:37] But by default, no it'll just be A4 probably [11:37] highvolt1ge: Then the notes should go on the outside margins. [11:38] Whoops, meant humphreybc, not highvolt1ge. [11:38] heh [11:38] yes, on the right [11:38] (Silly xchat autocomplete!) [11:39] hehe :) [11:39] I think the right, I mean not many people are going to actually print this thing - it's going to be about 80-100 pages at my estimate, which makes 50 pages when printed 2 up. And lots of screenshots too... [11:39] even if it is printed in bw, it'll still use a tonne of ink [11:39] plus our research suggests that most people won't be inclined to print [11:39] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Research#Results [11:39] I think we should work on making it smaller in number of pages [11:39] Question 4 [11:39] does this help (http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278)? [11:40] c7p: URL doesn't work [11:40] http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278 [11:40] LINK received: http://pubs.logicalexpressions.com/Pub0009/LPMArticle.asp?ID=278 [11:40] bruno: yeah we can work on slimming it down after we've got to alpha [11:40] oh link didn't work due to ? [11:41] [VOTE] Should the margin notes be on the right? [11:41] Please vote on: Should the margin notes be on the right?. [11:41] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [11:41] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [11:41] +1 [11:41] +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [11:41] +1 [11:41] +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [11:41] +1 [11:41] +1 received from waltmenz. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [11:41] +1 [11:41] +1 received from mparmpathomas. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [11:41] +1 [11:41] +1 received from vish. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [11:41] +1/2 [11:42] ;) [11:42] +1 [11:42] +1 received from brunobernardino. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [11:42] dutchie: technically that would be +-1 :P [11:42] +1 [11:42] +1 received from ring. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7 [11:42] * vish throws out dutchie's invalid vote ;p [11:42] +1 [11:42] +1 received from fenre. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8 [11:42] http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf (I updated the note callouts to be in the margin.) [11:42] LINK received: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf (I updated the note callouts to be in the margin.) [11:42] (the way I am running votes tonight is basically raising the topic, waiting for some discussions and opinions. If there are none then I will hold a vote) [11:43] [ENDVOTE] [11:43] Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 8 [11:43] So on the right I guess [11:43] Cool, since that's the default. :-) (No extra coding for me!) [11:43] haha nice [11:44] have you thought about making the margin notes go in the bottom? [11:44] footer notes? [11:44] just brainstorming here :) [11:44] bruno: that would probably use too much space in the end [11:44] altho [11:44] i'm not sure [11:44] brunobernardino: We could do that, too. I guess it depends on how easily people should be able to read the notes. [11:44] I like margin better [11:45] I get the sense it attracts too much attention on the right [11:45] It suits a "manual" more, I think. [11:45] If you don't want people to read them, footnotes are good. :-) [11:45] godbyk: that's mean :) I read footnotes [11:45] Having a wider margin is also handy for those who want to take notes. [11:45] godbyk: good point [11:45] I think we'll go with margin notes, thanks anyway bruno :) [11:45] if there are multiple notes on a page and they are in the footer you have to reference them [11:45] brunobernardino: I do, too. But I hate having to disrupt my place in the paragraph to immediately read the footnote. [11:45] ok [11:46] Endnotes are even worse. Keeping two bookmarks. Ugh. [11:46] no problem, that's what we're here to do, discuss ideas, and see if they suit or not the objectives [11:46] [TOPIC] How we are going to format the warnings etc [11:46] New Topic: How we are going to format the warnings etc [11:46] So, different colour? Bigger font? Bold? Underlined? Icons? [11:46] We might want to discuss warnings after we have some to format. So far I haven't seen the callouts used as warnings. [11:47] yes, but we can imagine some [11:47] I believe we have two good options, imo: [11:47] Well there will be plenty in chapter 7 :P [11:47] A small squared box on the left, OR a wide rectangle on the top of the paragraph [11:47] I think we should make them a wee bit bigger, perhaps bold (either or, not both) and have a warning symbol to the left of them in the left margin. [11:48] I'm not a huge fan of boxes or borders around text [11:48] these both should have a thin border with a very faded background and an image on the left [11:48] maybe I'm thinking too much website-style, my bad :) [11:48] I think just having a warning icon to the left of an indented paragraph is enough. [11:48] and an icon like this: http://www.rhealth.com.au/content/Image/600px-warning_icon_svg.png [11:48] godbyk +1 [11:48] I think that most boxes and borders are completely unnecessary. [11:48] godbyk, I agree [11:49] exactly like that humphreybc [11:49] yes humphreybc I like that icon [11:49] humphreybc: Exactly like the icon I was thinking about. [11:49] humphreybc: use icons from humanity as far as possible , we already have the warning icon [11:49] a little explination at the start of the document to explain what the icon means [11:49] [VOTE] Warnings should be in a paragraph, with an icon like the one above, that sits in the left margin, indented. [11:49] Please vote on: Warnings should be in a paragraph, with an icon like the one above, that sits in the left margin, indented.. [11:49] Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot [11:49] E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting [11:49] +1 [11:49] +1 received from brunobernardino. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 [11:49] +1 [11:49] +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 [11:49] +1 [11:49] +1 received from godbyk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 [11:49] vish: yeah we will, that was just the easiest one for me to grab as an example [11:50] ok then +1 [11:50] +1 [11:50] +1 received from humphreybc. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4 [11:50] +1 [11:50] +1 received from vish. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5 [11:50] dutchie? [11:51] +1 [11:51] +1 received from waltmenz. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6 [11:51] +_1 [11:51] +! [11:51] +1 [11:51] +1 received from dutchie. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7 [11:51] lol [11:51] LOL [11:51] [ENDVOTE] [11:51] Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 7 [11:51] +1 [11:51] oh noes! [11:51] i'll put it as 8 [11:51] oh noes! [11:51] :) [11:51] indeed [11:51]