/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/01/18/#ubuntu-manual.txt

humphreybclooks good Ilya00:03
humphreybcdo you want to push your changes?00:03
humphreybcTidying up the prologue was on my list of things to do anyhow :)00:03
humphreybcwow the thread is up to 11 pages now00:31
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson, how is the survey going?00:31
wolterhey humphreybc why can't we use \begin{comment} in the manual?00:39
humphreybcuhm.. pass?00:40
humphreybcyou want to add in a comment?00:40
wolterWell, i get building problems when I use one in my tex file00:40
humphreybcgodbyk: ^^00:41
wolter\begin{comment} So I don't have to prepend % to every sentence \end{comment}00:45
humphreybchmm00:45
humphreybci'm not sure00:45
woltershould I use \application{App} everytime I mention an application's name?01:02
godbykback.01:43
godbykwolter: There's current not an environment defined for that, but I could make one.  You just want a place to dump comments that don't appear in the PDF? Or do you want the to appear in the PDF?01:44
godbykwolter: Yep, using \application{App} will let us format all the application names the same way (and also automatically add them to the index).01:44
woltergodbyk, i just want the text between \begin{comment} and \end{comment} to work as % comments01:44
wolterin other words, yes, off the PDF comments01:45
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: i'll push the changes then01:52
IlyaHaykinson_re survey: we've got about 200 responses01:56
humphreybcawesome01:56
IlyaHaykinson_I want about a thousand01:56
IlyaHaykinson_and i want a lot more windows/mac users than we have (the majority is still linux ppl)01:56
IlyaHaykinson_humphreybc: pushed02:07
wolterI suggest that the text formatted with \nav{} is either underlined or italicized02:08
godbykwolter: Thanks, I'll see how that looks.  Right now all the formatting (\application, \nav, etc.) is just kind of placeholder. We can tweak it all whenever we like.02:13
wolterOk02:17
woltergood02:17
wolterhey humphreybc I just worked on the software and packaging section, i will push now in case you wanted to review my changes02:19
humphreybcwolter sweet ill check them out02:19
godbykwho's in charge of the Makefile? I'd like to hack on it or replace it.. it'd be better if we compile with pdflatex instead of straight latex.02:22
IlyaHaykinson_re navigation, per style guidelines in Ubuntu and other guides, it should be <b>Menuitem</b> --> <b>Submenuitem</b> --> ...02:24
humphreybcgodbyk, i guess you are02:24
IlyaHaykinson_or the equivalent thereof02:24
IlyaHaykinson_except that in LaTeX we have codes for arrows02:25
humphreybcyeah arrows are swell02:25
humphreybcgodbyk could you push through the changes to the notes?02:25
godbykwe can pick different arrows, as well.  those were just the ones I typically use.02:25
godbykhumphreybc: yeah, once I fix things I broke. :-)02:25
wolterok, i would use triangles for arrows02:25
humphreybchaha okay neat02:25
godbykWhat's the normal bzr work-flow?02:25
humphreybcwhat's the benefit of using pdflatex?02:26
godbykRight now, I make changes, then bzr commit, then bzr merge, then bzr commit again, then bzr push.02:26
wolterApplications ▸ Accessories ▸ Terminal02:26
wolterfor example02:26
wolterbut smaller, if possible02:26
godbykfor that second bzr commit, I'm always at a loss of what to say about the changes because nothing's changed -- it's just merging the main branch and my previous changes.02:26
wolterlet me see if I can find any02:26
godbykhumphreybc: well, the immediate benefit is that the cover page stuff will work. :-)02:27
godbykalso, I think the result PDF files may be smaller, though I haven't tested it.02:27
godbykthe current compile path looks like this: .tex -> .ps -> .pdf02:27
godbykwhereas with pdflatex, it's .tex -> .pdf02:27
wolterApplications ➤ Accessories ➤ Terminal02:27
wolteralso looks good02:27
wolterbut i think the other one is better, for it is more simple02:27
humphreybccool, godbyk, do it. wolter I like those, how are you doing them in IRC?02:28
wolterhumphreybc, i just copy them from the character map02:28
humphreybcoh ok02:28
humphreybci thought you might have been using black magic02:28
godbykwolter: Pick an arrow from here: http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/.../symbols-letter.pdf02:28
wolterthere is a u<code> though02:28
humphreybclink no woriky02:29
humphreybcworky*02:29
godbykgah, bad url.02:29
godbykone sec.02:29
humphreybclinks in IRC are hopeless02:29
godbykhttp://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-letter.pdf02:29
godbykgoogle mangled the url earlier.02:30
humphreybchaha02:30
humphreybcso pdflatex sounds good, go for it02:30
godbykas for the bzr workflow, am I doing it right? if so, what do most people add for the msg when they merge?02:31
wolterah my mouse weirded up again02:31
humphreybcthere are a LOT of symbols...02:32
godbykheh.. yeah.02:32
humphreybcum no we usually don't merge02:32
humphreybcwe just make changes, commit, push02:32
godbykLaTeX is used for math all the time, so it requires a ton of symbols.02:32
humphreybccommit -m "Changes go here"02:32
godbykI think it complains when I push and haven't merged.02:32
humphreybcreally?02:32
humphreybcit shouldn't02:32
humphreybcdo you pull first to get the latest reviison tho?02:32
wolter\blacktriangleright seems like it02:33
humphreybc\Rightarrow looks okay too02:33
wolteror \smalltriangleright02:33
humphreybcwolter what page is blacktriangle on?02:33
wolterhm.. 28, but just search for it02:34
godbykok, I did a pull.. that appears to have worked.  Got a msg about "Text conflict in ubuntu-manual.cls".  Can I see what the conflict was so I can resolve it?02:34
wolterhumphreybc, I think rightarrow is a little cluttered02:34
humphreybcyou could be right02:34
humphreybci like \blacktriangleright02:34
humphreybci think if you do bzr diff godbyk02:35
humphreybcit will show you some info02:35
humphreybcbzr --help too02:35
godbykwolter: Ah, you'll have to pick a different black triangle.  Those are included only with the Minion Pro font.02:35
humphreybcor bzr -merge. You can merge locally which would save two commits02:35
humphreybchahaha02:35
godbykThe Minion Pro font is non-free.02:35
wolteroh02:35
humphreybc\closedsucc ?02:35
godbykI could compile it since I have the font, but no one else could.  (I could put in an if-minion-pro-installed-use-it-else-use-this-other-font for you guys, but then I have to compile all the final drafts.)02:36
humphreybclol no that's fine godbyk we can find another arrow02:36
humphreybc\succ ?02:37
humphreybcor \clossedsucc - they both look good02:37
humphreybcminimilist02:37
humphreybcmaybe too minimilist02:37
humphreybc\gg ?02:37
woltergodbyk, which font should I look for?02:38
wolterI think there are plenty of them triangles02:38
wolterlet me see02:38
godbykI think almost all of the other symbols in that list are safe.02:38
humphreybc\gtrclosed02:38
godbykI can also draw a triangle and use it as a symbol, too.02:38
wolteris gg >> ?02:38
humphreybcyea02:38
wolterIf you could, I would draw a really small filled one02:38
humphreybc\gtrclosed is like the filled black triangle, but not filled02:39
humphreybc\blacktriangleright ?02:39
wolterhm i like that one02:39
humphreybcthat one's filled02:39
humphreybcit's a bit big tho02:39
wolteri think that one is the non-free font02:39
humphreybcoh02:39
humphreybcyeah it is02:39
godbykMinion Pro is a rather nice font. :-)02:39
humphreybc\Longrightarrow ?02:40
godbykI think it comes with Adobe Acrobat Reader for free, but I'm not positive.02:40
woltertoo long in my opinion02:40
godbykWhat do you like/not like about the current arrow?02:40
humphreybc\Rightarrow ?02:40
humphreybcwhich current arrow?02:40
godbykToo long/short? Too light/heavy?02:40
godbykThe one we're using in \nav.02:41
humphreybcgoes to check02:41
godbyk(look in the software and packaging chapter)02:41
humphreybctoo light02:41
humphreybcnot prominent enough02:41
humphreybcwhere's chapter 8?02:41
humphreybcno one has started yet...02:42
humphreybcoh that's right Ryan was doing it02:42
humphreybcbut he's been away02:42
humphreybcI like the filled one that wolter suggested02:42
humphreybccan we find a free alternative to that?02:42
humphreybc\chemarrow ?02:43
humphreybcalso the registered trademark stuff looks ugly!02:43
humphreybcif we HAVE to put a circled R next windows or whatever, can we find a tiny one?02:44
godbykhumphreybc: We don't legally have to put (R) next to stuff, and I don't think we should.02:44
humphreybcOkay well remove them :)02:44
humphreybcwhen you see one02:44
godbykWill do.02:44
wolteryeah, or just replace recursively all the \textregistered or \texttrademark for an empty char02:45
humphreybcaha!02:46
humphreybc\ding{228}02:46
humphreybcor 226 or 22702:47
humphreybcor 23202:47
wolter\mantriangleright02:47
wolter?02:47
wolterlet me check those02:47
humphreybcyep that could work, if we want something bigger we could use \Forward02:48
humphreybcman there are symbols for china here02:48
humphreybci mean really, \MartinVogel ??02:48
godbykOkay, I pushed a bunch of changes I'd made earlier (some which are still in-progress, so don't complain too much about the formatting yet! :)).02:48
humphreybc\Womanface ??02:48
wolternice ding 22802:48
godbykWhat all did you have me promise to do while I was in a half-awake state this morning during the meeting?02:48
godbykAnd what did you want me to do just now?02:49
godbyk(Brain's fried today.)02:49
humphreybchahaha02:49
wolterhey humphreybc so are meetings going to be at 2000 from now on?02:49
humphreybcum https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Meeting Summary02:49
humphreybcoh ignore the stupid split link02:49
humphreybcbut meeting summar02:49
humphreybcjust have a perve at the voting results02:49
humphreybcthat's practically what has to happen :P02:49
humphreybcwolter: yep02:49
woltergood =D02:50
humphreybcwe should have a sudo rm -rf / command with \skull beside it....02:50
humphreybchaha02:50
wolterhahaha02:53
wolteryes02:53
IlyaHaykinson_we should put the (R) at least once02:53
wolterWe should put it short after the titlepage02:53
IlyaHaykinson_my recommendation is the first time in the manual use the full name of the thing (for example Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Vista, etc)02:53
IlyaHaykinson_any subsequent time, no need to use the symbol anymore02:54
IlyaHaykinson_so, basically, once per manual for the \textregistered or \texttrademark per brand02:54
wolterlike, We acknowledge that <list of used registered brands> are registered brands and blah blah blah02:54
godbykIlyaHaykinson: It's not really our place to defend or promote anyone else's registered trademarks.  All we should do is capitalize the words appropriately.02:54
humphreybclol godbyk you've changed a tonne of stuff :P02:54
wolterstyle stuff?02:55
wolterlet me pull02:55
godbykA bit.. most of it is just taking out the pre-existing formatting so I can clean it up.02:55
humphreybcI'll talk to the doc team about what they do02:55
godbykSo some things will be going back in.02:55
humphreybcthey would know more about legalities02:56
humphreybcneat02:56
IlyaHaykinson_godbyk: it's not a promotion, it's actually a CYA move -- we're acknowledging the fact that the mark we are using is registered02:56
IlyaHaykinson_but after that, there's no need to do any further mentions02:56
IlyaHaykinson_this is pretty common for written works (books etc)02:56
woltergodbyk, I must say I like it, the font is nice to read02:56
wolterBut I think we should adopt a more ubuntu-like style02:57
wolterand tab headers02:57
wolterI like the notes better though02:57
godbykwolter: The current chapter and section headings are the LaTeX defaults.  I haven't gotten back to reformatting those, yet.02:57
wolterAlso, watch the bullet symbols02:58
godbykIlyaHaykinson: I understand, but we're not legally required to specify (R) or TM or SM -- those are used solely by the companies that own those trademarks and service marks.02:58
wolterand, if there was a way to group near notes, that would be awesome02:58
godbykwolter: What about the bullet symbols?02:58
wolterI don't know, I prefer the old ones (plain circles)02:59
godbykThe notes appear adjacent to where they were entered by the author.02:59
wolterlol ---> FLOSS @ chapter 1003:00
humphreybchmm the serif font does look quite nice03:01
humphreybcbut it's not "ubuntu" ish03:01
wolterAlso, I think there is a space between bulleted points a little bigger than it should be03:01
IlyaHaykinson_godbyk: the problem is that our stuff is competitve in a way.03:01
IlyaHaykinson_see http://en.allexperts.com/q/Business-Technical-Writing-1516/Trademark-Symbol-Use.htm (the answer to the question references a good manual of style)03:02
IlyaHaykinson_this is pretty common in technical writing03:02
wolteror we could just define variables for windows and mac and other common trademarks used03:03
wolterI don't know...03:03
IlyaHaykinson_we only need to do it once, not every time03:03
humphreybcwe totally need to get a better R symbol then03:04
IlyaHaykinson_probably just need to redefine the command to make it smaller and superscript03:05
IlyaHaykinson_alright, i gotta run to dinner. be back in an hour or so03:05
humphreybcrighto03:05
wolterIll play some guitar, ill be here though03:05
humphreybcwolter you should learn "Gravedigger" by Dave Matthews03:07
humphreybcI've been learning it, it's a great song. Fairly easy and very effective.03:07
godbykIlyaHaykinson: I grabbed my info from the Chicago Manual of Style.03:08
godbykIt states:03:08
wolteroh thanks humphreybc I like dave matthews :)03:09
godbyk"Brand names that are registered trademarks -- often so indicated in dictionaries -- should be capitalized if they must be used. A better choice is to substitute a generic term when available. Although tht esmbols (R) and TM often accompany trademark names on product packaging and in promotional material, ther eis no legal requirement to use these symbols, and they should be ommitted wherever possible. Note also that some companies03:10
godbykwant people to use both the proper and the generic terms in reference to their products ("Kleenex facial tissues," not just {"Kleenex"), but here again there is no legal requirement03:10
godbykAlso, from reading online, if you put (R) next to a trademark that is *not* registered in that country, then it is illegal.03:11
godbykhttp://inventors.about.com/od/inventing101trademarks/f/tm_symbol.htm03:11
humphreybcleave them out then03:11
humphreybci'll confirm with the docs team03:12
godbykIn short, IANAL but from a typographic standpoint, I very much dislike them.  :-)03:12
humphreybcwhy on earth are there characters from the simpsons in latex!?03:17
humphreybcno wonder the download is so damn big!03:17
godbykLOL03:18
godbykIt's kind of like python where if you can think of a feature, there's probably package that implements it already.03:19
humphreybchahaha03:20
humphreybcI would like a feature in Ubuntu that flips my screen around every 5 minutes to a different orientation03:21
humphreybcso I can stretch my neck03:21
humphreybcit would reduce RSI03:21
humphreybcbecause I spend too bloody long in long meetings and IRC chats....03:24
humphreybc:P03:25
doctormo_humphreybc: I should be finished with the first release of ground control tomorrow... it's had some niggles today, but I will get a video out explaining how to use it.03:40
wolterare you martin owens?03:44
godbykhumphreybc: Okay, the credits are now in a three-column format.  I also changed the arrow used in the menu selection stuff.  (See page 17 and tell me what you think.)03:53
humphreybcwolter: yes doctormo is martin04:28
woltercool04:28
godbykwolter, humphreybc: do the new arrows look better?04:29
humphreybcyep godbyk they do look good04:29
godbyk'kay, cool.04:29
humphreybcand the credits is definitely an improvement :)04:29
woltershould I pull?04:29
godbykwolter: sure.04:30
wolterhm godbyk looks nice04:31
wolterI would prefer the grtclosed though04:31
godbykwolter: It looks like grtclosed is only in the Minion Pro font, though, right?  (Did I miss it elsewhere?)04:33
IlyaHaykinson_for credits, can't we just do them later on (towards the end) by going over bzr logs?04:33
wolteroh04:33
wolteroh..04:33
IlyaHaykinson_instead of maintainign them all the time?04:33
wolterand how about the one in mnfnt?04:33
wolterman font or something?04:33
humphreybcIlya, yeah probably04:33
humphreybcI just wanted to get an idea of what it'll look like04:34
godbykThe MnSymbol package uses the Minion Pro font for its symbols.04:35
IlyaHaykinson_godbyk: ok, i agree with your research on (R)04:52
IlyaHaykinson_are Minion Pro fonts open content?04:53
godbykI'm not sure what you mean by "open content".04:57
godbykI think you can get a version of them for free with Adobe Acrobat Reader (but I'm not sure).04:57
IlyaHaykinson_it would appear that the fonts are under a commercial license04:57
godbykI have a copy that I bought, so I can compile docs using them.. but if you don't have the fonts, it won't look the same when you compile it.04:58
IlyaHaykinson_they may be free, but they are not a) in the public domain, b) under the GFDL, c) under Creative Commons Attribution or Attribution-ShareAlike04:58
IlyaHaykinson_thus, they're not "open"04:58
IlyaHaykinson_which would mean that anyone using them needs to agree to a commercial license04:58
IlyaHaykinson_https://store4.adobe.com/cfusion/store/html/index.cfm?store=OLS-US&event=displayFontPackage&code=171904:58
IlyaHaykinson_it's unfortunately not enough that they're distributed for free with a commercial program04:59
godbykIlyaHaykinson: Yes, all of that is true.04:59
IlyaHaykinson_godbyk: the change to default-apps/gettingonline.tex with \advancedusage becoming a margin note didn't work05:29
IlyaHaykinson_first, i really would like to have non-margin paragraph styles05:29
IlyaHaykinson_i.e. just a differently-highlighted paragraph for advanced usage etc05:29
godbykIlyaHaykinson: Is it going to be a warning-like box? or what's its intent?05:30
IlyaHaykinson_these aren't things that should go in the margin (plus, in this particular case, it breaks the layout completely)05:30
IlyaHaykinson_no05:30
godbyk(I have to make a warning paragraph thingy still.)05:30
IlyaHaykinson_similar to a warning, but more like a paragraph for people who want to be advanced05:30
IlyaHaykinson_or do advanced things05:30
IlyaHaykinson_not necessarily anything to watch out for...05:30
IlyaHaykinson_but also not something i want to just put in the main body without highlighting as being advanced stuff05:30
IlyaHaykinson_in this particular case, it's a brief discussion of needing to enter a MAC address in certain cases... this is not something i would want to leave in the main body because it'll confuse people.05:31
IlyaHaykinson_whereas in an "advanced" paragraph frame, it'll clearly stand out enough to be skipped by those who don't care, or specifically looked-at by those who need it05:32
godbykIt may be better to leave it in the main text (as a normal paragraph), but you'll have to explain to people when they need to enter the MAC address.05:35
godbykIf it's for "advanced usage," should it be included in the manual in the first place?  (I honestly don't know.)05:35
IlyaHaykinson_i think it's just one example of something that should be mentioned close to where the discussion is taking place, but very distinctly presented as not being part of the main narrative05:39
IlyaHaykinson_this is the case for most technical books on my shelf, at least... there's boxes, and notes, etc as needed.05:39
godbykIlyaHaykinson: Sure.  Do the boxes in those book tend to attract your attention or do you typically skip over reading them?05:40
godbykAnd in this case, do we want the advanced usage notes to attract attention or minimize it?05:40
IlyaHaykinson_different readers will do different things. some people will see that it's for advanced use and skip right over it. others will read it.05:41
IlyaHaykinson_but regardless, it'll be clearly demarcated05:41
IlyaHaykinson_otherwise, i basically have to do the same demarcation -- but in prose05:41
IlyaHaykinson_or, alternately, leave it out of the manual altogether05:41
IlyaHaykinson_neither option sounds appealing :)05:42
godbykOkay. Let me work up something here real quick and we'll see how it looks.05:42
IlyaHaykinson_thank you much05:46
IlyaHaykinson_btw... quick question.05:46
IlyaHaykinson_i noticed that with the recent change to the templates, you've removed color05:46
IlyaHaykinson_while it's fair to say that color will be mostly useless for folks who do print the manual -- i doubt many will waste color ink on it...05:47
IlyaHaykinson_it looks like the majority of our readers will not be printing it05:47
IlyaHaykinson_which means that we can use color, at least lightly, to help distinguish main section headings from subheadings05:47
IlyaHaykinson_font size is certainly a good hint too, but it may not be enough when the point difference between section, subsection, and subsubsection is as small as it is currently05:48
godbykYeah, I have to reformat the headings.06:04
godbykI basically reverted a lot of the formatting to its original LaTeX defaults and I'm now applying the formatting decisions we made earlier.06:05
godbykSo the headings will be getting a makeover soon.06:05
godbykHopefully people aren't going so deep on the heading levels (hierarchy) that it becomes difficult to follow.06:05
IlyaHaykinson_ok, nifty, thanks. if possible, don't keep identing like we did before06:06
IlyaHaykinson_it created such huge margins that the content looked really funny.06:06
IlyaHaykinson_most books, imho, don't use section indentation.06:06
godbyk(Similar to: Just because you have <h1> through <h7> in HTML doesn't mean you *should* have seven levels of headings in your document.)06:06
IlyaHaykinson_oh. right. i think our current three level set up is actually quite good.06:06
IlyaHaykinson_keeps us restrained.06:07
godbykI haven't looked into everyone's writing, so I'm not sure how far people are going.  Hopefully subsection is low enough. :-)06:07
godbyk(Also, it means there are fewer headings I have to format! :-))06:07
IlyaHaykinson_well, section, subsection, subsubsection is what i meant by three levels.06:09
IlyaHaykinson_i think we could do with two levels, though so far just chap 3 (me) and chap 5 are using subsubsection06:09
IlyaHaykinson_which is rather to say that not a lot of other sections are fleshed out yet. :)06:09
IlyaHaykinson_personally i'd prefer if we leave all three levels handy. my chapter is very long, and i have to use sections one per application.06:10
IlyaHaykinson_so really subsection and subsubsection are my two levels of hierarchy on a regular basis.06:11
IlyaHaykinson_(in other words: i'd vote to keep subsub, if possible)06:11
godbykGotcha.06:12
IlyaHaykinson_ooh, gedit has a latex plugin06:32
IlyaHaykinson_...complete with an embedded preview. very nice.06:38
IlyaHaykinson_btw, quick hit from the survey so far: nearly 40% of respondents say that they would be interested in printing the manual.06:44
godbykwow.06:45
godbykSince we're generating PDFs, we could also easily use a publish-on-demand site (like lulu.com) and people could buy printed copies.06:46
godbykBtw, wolter, your \begin{comment} blah blah \end{comment} stuff should work now (though I haven't tested it).06:50
wolteroh thanks, you are really efficient godbyk :)06:58
godbykwolter: I can't take much credit for that one.. It required \RequirePackage{comment}.06:59
godbykDone! :-)06:59
wolterhaha06:59
godbykOne of the best things about LaTeX is that if there's a feature you want, chances are someone's already written a package to implement it.06:59
wolternice06:59
wolteri never knew about latex and how convenient it was until I joined this project07:00
woltergodbyk, and how do you write the style?07:00
wolterit is not CSS, is it?07:00
godbykNope, it's not CSS.  It's TeX -- its own language.07:00
godbykYou can take a look at the ubuntu-manual.cls to see what it looks like.07:01
wolteroh07:01
godbyk(most of the interesting code is toward the bottom.)07:01
wolternice07:01
woltergood to know, I might play around with it a little later07:01
godbykTeX is a typesetting language written by Donald Knuth in the late 70s and early 80s.07:01
godbykIt evolved into a Turing-complete language, so while it may not be easy, you really can do some crazy things with it.07:02
wolterWorked like a charm07:03
wolteryeah well, I wouldn't call it hard wither07:03
woltereither*07:04
wolterat least not LaTeX07:04
wolter(i've heard latex is different from tex)07:04
godbykLaTeX is a set of macros built using the TeX language.07:07
godbykKind of a framework, so to speak.07:07
godbykSo LaTeX has nice syntactic sugar and commands/macros to simplify things for us mere writers.07:07
IlyaHaykinson_hm, you know, one thing is quite annoying with our current layout: it's made for printing....07:09
IlyaHaykinson_so the margins shift between inside/outside07:09
IlyaHaykinson_and that means the content keeps shifting too07:10
IlyaHaykinson_makes reading the PDF, linearly, kind of distracting as the left alignment of text shifts with every page.07:10
godbykIlyaHaykinson: Yeah, that'll change in a bit.07:11
godbyk(It's just a matter of saying \LoadClass[oneside]{book} instead of \LoadClass[twoside]{book}.)07:11
godbykIn evince, I go to View > Dual.07:11
godbykThen it looks all pretty again.07:11
IlyaHaykinson_plus, the alternating-margins only makes sense when printed in book form...07:12
IlyaHaykinson_godbyk: alright. perhaps eventually, if we decide to offer an actual book version, we can have an alternate set of classes that do this twoside thing07:12
godbykYep.  I'm designing it on now so I don't have a bunch of work to do later.07:13
IlyaHaykinson_well, yes, pretty, though just by virtue of being side-by-side :)  thanks though.07:13
godbykWhen we switch to oneside, it will just use the formatting and page layout of the right-hand-side page.07:13
IlyaHaykinson_nod. makes sense.07:14
IlyaHaykinson_thanks07:14
wolteroh.. now i understand why the text body shifts07:16
godbykThere is, in fact, a reason to the madness!  <grin>07:17
wolterhaha07:21
wolterhey godbyk, is there a way I can separate my file into various and just include the text from the main file?07:21
IlyaHaykinson_wolter: see how i did it in default-apps07:22
godbykwolter: Yep.07:22
godbykJust split your file into multiple .tex files.07:22
wolternice07:22
godbykThen in your main chapter .tex file, use \include{sec1} \include{sec2} etc.07:23
IlyaHaykinson_can't use include, i think... gotta use input07:23
IlyaHaykinson_include doesn't allow you to nest other includes07:23
godbykIf you use \include, it will insert a page break.  If you use \input it won't.07:23
godbykIlyaHaykinson: Ah, that sounds vaguely familiar.07:23
godbyk(I never split my docs so far down. I usually keep one chapter per file.)07:24
IlyaHaykinson_yeah07:24
godbykInkscape isn't exporting this icon to PDF in a very nice way.  :-(07:24
IlyaHaykinson_the warning one?07:25
godbykyeah07:25
IlyaHaykinson_shouldn't it be a .PS or whatnot?07:25
IlyaHaykinson_and theoretically there should be SVG -> PS conversion?07:25
godbykWell, I'm hoping to bypass the tex -> ps -> pdf pipeline and go straight from tex to pdf.07:26
IlyaHaykinson_ah, during the build process?07:26
woltergodbyk, yeah, inkscape is giving me fun too07:26
wolterwith transparencies07:27
wolter?07:27
godbykthat's my guess.  not sure, though.07:27
godbykI'd hate to have to export a nice vector graphic to a lame raster graphic.07:28
IlyaHaykinson_EPS is vector, isn't it?07:32
godbykyes, but I don't think pdflatex likes it.07:34
godbykplain latex will eat eps just fine, I think.07:34
godbykunfortunately, plain latex doesn't like pngs (but pdflatex does).  (if I remember correctly)07:34
godbykhas to do with the differences in ps vs. pdf.07:34
wolterhey godbyk so the cover doesn't have to be in pdf format?07:38
wolterIf it can be plain png and pdflatex works it nice, then i'm so relieved07:38
wolteranyway godbyk, how would I change the text color of chapters when editing the ubuntu-manual.cls ?07:39
godbykWell, I *think* that using PDF for the cover and warning icons (and any other vector graphics) may reduce the resulting PDF file size.. but I'm not positive.  (I'd have to experiment to see.)07:39
godbykIf it comes down to it, we can use PNG graphics throughout, though.07:39
wolterwould reduce quality of the cover then as well, wouldn't it?07:39
godbykYes, the PNG format would compress it and things like gradients may not fare as well, we'll have to see.07:40
godbykEditing the colors of headings isn't the easiest thing to do.  Since we're using the titlesec package, it makes it a bit easier, but it still rather confusing.07:41
godbykIf you type 'texdoc titlesec' at the prompt, it will open up the documentation for the titlesec package.07:41
godbykIlyaHaykinson: I just pushed an update that includes \warning and \advanced.07:49
godbykI'll fix them to use nice icons after I'm done beating up inkscape (or after I've given in to it).07:49
wolterhaha07:51
wolterI know a bit of inkscape so if I could help you with anything just ask07:51
godbykwolter: Just for you, I restored the colors of the headings. :-)07:55
wolterooh nice07:56
wolterlet me pull07:56
godbyk(People are probably tired of seeing commit emails from me!)07:56
wolterhaha, don't bother.. but I think you should make the font bigger and bold, as it was before. Anyway, don't feel compelled to do it right now, even though your kindness would be well appreaciated07:57
IlyaHaykinson_godbyk: nice updates, thanks.07:59
godbykI just set them sans serif and bold.  I'll have to play with the font sizes tomorrow, I think.  I want to make sure there's a clear hierarchy between the different heading levels.07:59
godbykIt's 2 a.m. here, so I think I'll head to bed.  I'll continuing the formatting stuff tomorrow.08:00
IlyaHaykinson_besides, godbyk, i think i bother ppl with just as many commits as you.08:00
godbyk(Feel free to email me, file bugs, or leave messages on IRC for me while I'm away and I'll look into all of it in the morning.)08:00
wolterok, thanks :)08:00
IlyaHaykinson_and, godbyk, thanks for the great work you are doing on the layout.08:01
wolteryeah, i like memoserv08:01
godbykwolter: Works for me!08:01
godbykOkay, g'night guys.08:01
woltergnight08:01
IlyaHaykinson_alright, midnight for me, time for bed as well.08:07
IlyaHaykinson_bye folks.08:07
wolterbye IlyaHaykinson08:11
jmburgesshey everyone10:08
jmburgesswow10:17
jmburgessgodyk has done a crap ton10:20
jmburgesshe is a lot better than me at this10:20
=== tyabux is now known as XiXaQ
jmburgesshey tya11:48
jmburgessor sorry XiXaQ11:48
XiXaQ:)11:48
XiXaQwhat the hell does that quit message mean?11:48
XiXaQ* XiXaQ has quit (Success) ?11:48
jmburgesshaha11:50
jmburgessit means that you quit and that was the comment your client gave11:50
jmburgessnot ure why11:50
XiXaQno, I didn't quit.11:51
XiXaQalso, that wouldn't look like that. That would look like * XiXaQ has quit (quit: Success)11:51
XiXaQwouldn't it?11:51
XiXaQhmm. Maybe not. * IlyaHaykinson_ has quit ("nitenite")11:52
jmburgessyeah i am pretty sure it is your client that does that11:55
pererik87someones earning karma:     (no translation yet)12:13
pererik87Translated and reviewed by Fredrik Sudmann on 2010-01-15 :P12:13
pererik87omg thats so annoying its everywhere.12:18
kell05Does anyone know how the manual is going to be delivered to the end user?16:14
pererik87I don't really know. i hope it wont compete with Ubuntu Help Center in system -> help and support16:17
kell05It might be wise to consider this now, especially since the document must be VERY visible to noobies.  Has it been considered asking ubuntuguide.org for a merge of the two projects?16:31
pererik87i didn't know about Ubuntu Help center before today. im so used to overlooking help symbols in windows, because they never did me any good16:33
pererik87I guess its a common problem among newbies also16:34
kell05You can lead a horse to water...16:40
pererik87i think ubuntu manual is the more to be printed form of help. i believe it could follow with new computers. UHC also needs to be sync. with the manual.16:41
kell05Never thought of a printed version.16:42
pererik87I don't know anything right now, i thought this was a UHC project. i didnt know it existed16:46
pererik87But i think it looks very good as a print. have you seen the front page layout and so. amazing16:47
kell05Any reason why my minor changes were rejected?  I added labels to the chapters to allow for cross referencing then alamati made modifications for version 124 and deleted them.  I am new to Open source development, so I just want to get my head round it so it doesn't happen again.17:02
pererik87The big guys live in another timezone. ask again in a few hours. I don't know the answer sorry17:04
jmburgesskell05: wait I am pretty sure we don't have a review process18:21
kell05Fair enough.18:27
pererik87what do i do with the one posting (not translated yet) as translations for stuff?18:39
wolterheyo19:05
* dutchie writes up the translations process20:01
godbykkell05: Per your earlier question, it was probably just due to someone not merging your changes before they commit (or something like that).  That's my guess, at least.20:46
godbykkell05: Though, the labels should come *after* \chapter, otherwise they won't do what you think.20:46
kell05Ah, that was a screw up on the sed oneliner I used.20:47
kell05Cheers20:48
godbykOnce we have labels we can start using real cross-referencing instead of hard-coding it.20:48
godbyk(It'd been on my TODO list, so I'm glad someone's picked it up!)20:49
dutchieright, I just pushed an update on the translations20:57
dutchieif it screws the already-done ones up again, tell20:57
godbykHey, dutchie, has the Makefile ever been modified or is it the stock LaTeX Makefile?21:15
dutchieno, but I was going to at some point21:15
godbykIf there's nothing special in it, I'll probably replace it with one that uses pdflatex instead of plain latex.21:15
dutchienot just sed -i 's/latex/pdflatex/'?21:15
dutchieit seems pretty powerful, and I've got kind of used to it21:16
godbykCan't, 'cause it's trying to be too smart about things.21:16
dutchiewhat, like images?21:16
godbykIt expects to take the .tex -> .ps -> .pdf path.21:16
godbykimages and hyperlinks, yeah.21:16
dutchieyeah, it might be easier to deal with a Makefile we've built ourselves21:17
dutchieit does have some pretty nice features, like all that colourised output21:17
godbykI do like the colorized output.21:17
godbykI'll try to see if we can keep that or find another colorizer.21:18
godbykbtw, do the po4a comments in the tex code tell po4a to handle it in a special way or something?  (just curious.. I've never used po4a)21:18
dutchieit complains if it doesn't know what's going on21:19
dutchiedon't think it treats it differently or anythign21:19
godbykAh, okay.  Should I be adding those comments (and if so, when?), or is it easy enough for you to keep up with?21:21
dutchiewell, all these extra commits are a pain21:22
dutchiejust add them in whenever you do a new environment21:22
dutchieI assume you can work out the format?21:22
godbykI can do that.  Do I add them for commands, too?21:23
dutchiedon't think so21:23
godbyk'kay.21:23
* dutchie double-checks21:23
godbykWell, I'll set up a new Makefile then and maybe we can see about automating the translations, too.21:23
dutchieyeah21:24
dutchieencodings are going to be a pain21:24
godbykYeah, that'll be interesting.21:25
godbykIf things get too hairy, we can always try switching over to XeLaTeX.  It'll let us use any font we want and works a lot better with unicode, I think.21:25

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