[00:03] <humphreybc> looks good Ilya
[00:03] <humphreybc> do you want to push your changes?
[00:03] <humphreybc> Tidying up the prologue was on my list of things to do anyhow :)
[00:31] <humphreybc> wow the thread is up to 11 pages now
[00:31] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson, how is the survey going?
[00:39] <wolter> hey humphreybc why can't we use \begin{comment} in the manual?
[00:40] <humphreybc> uhm.. pass?
[00:40] <humphreybc> you want to add in a comment?
[00:40] <wolter> Well, i get building problems when I use one in my tex file
[00:41] <humphreybc> godbyk: ^^
[00:45] <wolter> \begin{comment} So I don't have to prepend % to every sentence \end{comment}
[00:45] <humphreybc> hmm
[00:45] <humphreybc> i'm not sure
[01:02] <wolter> should I use \application{App} everytime I mention an application's name?
[01:43] <godbyk> back.
[01:44] <godbyk> wolter: There's current not an environment defined for that, but I could make one.  You just want a place to dump comments that don't appear in the PDF? Or do you want the to appear in the PDF?
[01:44] <godbyk> wolter: Yep, using \application{App} will let us format all the application names the same way (and also automatically add them to the index).
[01:44] <wolter> godbyk, i just want the text between \begin{comment} and \end{comment} to work as % comments
[01:45] <wolter> in other words, yes, off the PDF comments
[01:52] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i'll push the changes then
[01:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> re survey: we've got about 200 responses
[01:56] <humphreybc> awesome
[01:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> I want about a thousand
[01:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> and i want a lot more windows/mac users than we have (the majority is still linux ppl)
[02:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: pushed
[02:08] <wolter> I suggest that the text formatted with \nav{} is either underlined or italicized
[02:13] <godbyk> wolter: Thanks, I'll see how that looks.  Right now all the formatting (\application, \nav, etc.) is just kind of placeholder. We can tweak it all whenever we like.
[02:17] <wolter> Ok
[02:17] <wolter> good
[02:19] <wolter> hey humphreybc I just worked on the software and packaging section, i will push now in case you wanted to review my changes
[02:19] <humphreybc> wolter sweet ill check them out
[02:22] <godbyk> who's in charge of the Makefile? I'd like to hack on it or replace it.. it'd be better if we compile with pdflatex instead of straight latex.
[02:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> re navigation, per style guidelines in Ubuntu and other guides, it should be <b>Menuitem</b> --> <b>Submenuitem</b> --> ...
[02:24] <humphreybc> godbyk, i guess you are
[02:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> or the equivalent thereof
[02:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> except that in LaTeX we have codes for arrows
[02:25] <humphreybc> yeah arrows are swell
[02:25] <humphreybc> godbyk could you push through the changes to the notes?
[02:25] <godbyk> we can pick different arrows, as well.  those were just the ones I typically use.
[02:25] <godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, once I fix things I broke. :-)
[02:25] <wolter> ok, i would use triangles for arrows
[02:25] <humphreybc> haha okay neat
[02:25] <godbyk> What's the normal bzr work-flow?
[02:26] <humphreybc> what's the benefit of using pdflatex?
[02:26] <godbyk> Right now, I make changes, then bzr commit, then bzr merge, then bzr commit again, then bzr push.
[02:26] <wolter> Applications ▸ Accessories ▸ Terminal
[02:26] <wolter> for example
[02:26] <wolter> but smaller, if possible
[02:26] <godbyk> for that second bzr commit, I'm always at a loss of what to say about the changes because nothing's changed -- it's just merging the main branch and my previous changes.
[02:26] <wolter> let me see if I can find any
[02:27] <godbyk> humphreybc: well, the immediate benefit is that the cover page stuff will work. :-)
[02:27] <godbyk> also, I think the result PDF files may be smaller, though I haven't tested it.
[02:27] <godbyk> the current compile path looks like this: .tex -> .ps -> .pdf
[02:27] <godbyk> whereas with pdflatex, it's .tex -> .pdf
[02:27] <wolter> Applications ➤ Accessories ➤ Terminal
[02:27] <wolter> also looks good
[02:27] <wolter> but i think the other one is better, for it is more simple
[02:28] <humphreybc> cool, godbyk, do it. wolter I like those, how are you doing them in IRC?
[02:28] <wolter> humphreybc, i just copy them from the character map
[02:28] <humphreybc> oh ok
[02:28] <humphreybc> i thought you might have been using black magic
[02:28] <godbyk> wolter: Pick an arrow from here: http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/.../symbols-letter.pdf
[02:28] <wolter> there is a u<code> though
[02:29] <humphreybc> link no woriky
[02:29] <humphreybc> worky*
[02:29] <godbyk> gah, bad url.
[02:29] <godbyk> one sec.
[02:29] <humphreybc> links in IRC are hopeless
[02:29] <godbyk> http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/symbols/comprehensive/symbols-letter.pdf
[02:30] <godbyk> google mangled the url earlier.
[02:30] <humphreybc> haha
[02:30] <humphreybc> so pdflatex sounds good, go for it
[02:31] <godbyk> as for the bzr workflow, am I doing it right? if so, what do most people add for the msg when they merge?
[02:31] <wolter> ah my mouse weirded up again
[02:32] <humphreybc> there are a LOT of symbols...
[02:32] <godbyk> heh.. yeah.
[02:32] <humphreybc> um no we usually don't merge
[02:32] <humphreybc> we just make changes, commit, push
[02:32] <godbyk> LaTeX is used for math all the time, so it requires a ton of symbols.
[02:32] <humphreybc> commit -m "Changes go here"
[02:32] <godbyk> I think it complains when I push and haven't merged.
[02:32] <humphreybc> really?
[02:32] <humphreybc> it shouldn't
[02:32] <humphreybc> do you pull first to get the latest reviison tho?
[02:33] <wolter> \blacktriangleright seems like it
[02:33] <humphreybc> \Rightarrow looks okay too
[02:33] <wolter> or \smalltriangleright
[02:33] <humphreybc> wolter what page is blacktriangle on?
[02:34] <wolter> hm.. 28, but just search for it
[02:34] <godbyk> ok, I did a pull.. that appears to have worked.  Got a msg about "Text conflict in ubuntu-manual.cls".  Can I see what the conflict was so I can resolve it?
[02:34] <wolter> humphreybc, I think rightarrow is a little cluttered
[02:34] <humphreybc> you could be right
[02:34] <humphreybc> i like \blacktriangleright
[02:35] <humphreybc> i think if you do bzr diff godbyk
[02:35] <humphreybc> it will show you some info
[02:35] <humphreybc> bzr --help too
[02:35] <godbyk> wolter: Ah, you'll have to pick a different black triangle.  Those are included only with the Minion Pro font.
[02:35] <humphreybc> or bzr -merge. You can merge locally which would save two commits
[02:35] <humphreybc> hahaha
[02:35] <godbyk> The Minion Pro font is non-free.
[02:35] <wolter> oh
[02:35] <humphreybc> \closedsucc ?
[02:36] <godbyk> I could compile it since I have the font, but no one else could.  (I could put in an if-minion-pro-installed-use-it-else-use-this-other-font for you guys, but then I have to compile all the final drafts.)
[02:36] <humphreybc> lol no that's fine godbyk we can find another arrow
[02:37] <humphreybc> \succ ?
[02:37] <humphreybc> or \clossedsucc - they both look good
[02:37] <humphreybc> minimilist
[02:37] <humphreybc> maybe too minimilist
[02:37] <humphreybc> \gg ?
[02:38] <wolter> godbyk, which font should I look for?
[02:38] <wolter> I think there are plenty of them triangles
[02:38] <wolter> let me see
[02:38] <godbyk> I think almost all of the other symbols in that list are safe.
[02:38] <humphreybc> \gtrclosed
[02:38] <godbyk> I can also draw a triangle and use it as a symbol, too.
[02:38] <wolter> is gg >> ?
[02:38] <humphreybc> yea
[02:38] <wolter> If you could, I would draw a really small filled one
[02:39] <humphreybc> \gtrclosed is like the filled black triangle, but not filled
[02:39] <humphreybc> \blacktriangleright ?
[02:39] <wolter> hm i like that one
[02:39] <humphreybc> that one's filled
[02:39] <humphreybc> it's a bit big tho
[02:39] <wolter> i think that one is the non-free font
[02:39] <humphreybc> oh
[02:39] <humphreybc> yeah it is
[02:39] <godbyk> Minion Pro is a rather nice font. :-)
[02:40] <humphreybc> \Longrightarrow ?
[02:40] <godbyk> I think it comes with Adobe Acrobat Reader for free, but I'm not positive.
[02:40] <wolter> too long in my opinion
[02:40] <godbyk> What do you like/not like about the current arrow?
[02:40] <humphreybc> \Rightarrow ?
[02:40] <humphreybc> which current arrow?
[02:40] <godbyk> Too long/short? Too light/heavy?
[02:41] <godbyk> The one we're using in \nav.
[02:41] <humphreybc> goes to check
[02:41] <godbyk> (look in the software and packaging chapter)
[02:41] <humphreybc> too light
[02:41] <humphreybc> not prominent enough
[02:41] <humphreybc> where's chapter 8?
[02:42] <humphreybc> no one has started yet...
[02:42] <humphreybc> oh that's right Ryan was doing it
[02:42] <humphreybc> but he's been away
[02:42] <humphreybc> I like the filled one that wolter suggested
[02:42] <humphreybc> can we find a free alternative to that?
[02:43] <humphreybc> \chemarrow ?
[02:43] <humphreybc> also the registered trademark stuff looks ugly!
[02:44] <humphreybc> if we HAVE to put a circled R next windows or whatever, can we find a tiny one?
[02:44] <godbyk> humphreybc: We don't legally have to put (R) next to stuff, and I don't think we should.
[02:44] <humphreybc> Okay well remove them :)
[02:44] <humphreybc> when you see one
[02:44] <godbyk> Will do.
[02:45] <wolter> yeah, or just replace recursively all the \textregistered or \texttrademark for an empty char
[02:46] <humphreybc> aha!
[02:46] <humphreybc> \ding{228}
[02:47] <humphreybc> or 226 or 227
[02:47] <humphreybc> or 232
[02:47] <wolter> \mantriangleright
[02:47] <wolter> ?
[02:47] <wolter> let me check those
[02:48] <humphreybc> yep that could work, if we want something bigger we could use \Forward
[02:48] <humphreybc> man there are symbols for china here
[02:48] <humphreybc> i mean really, \MartinVogel ??
[02:48] <godbyk> Okay, I pushed a bunch of changes I'd made earlier (some which are still in-progress, so don't complain too much about the formatting yet! :)).
[02:48] <humphreybc> \Womanface ??
[02:48] <wolter> nice ding 228
[02:48] <godbyk> What all did you have me promise to do while I was in a half-awake state this morning during the meeting?
[02:49] <godbyk> And what did you want me to do just now?
[02:49] <godbyk> (Brain's fried today.)
[02:49] <humphreybc> hahaha
[02:49] <wolter> hey humphreybc so are meetings going to be at 2000 from now on?
[02:49] <humphreybc> um https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings#Meeting Summary
[02:49] <humphreybc> oh ignore the stupid split link
[02:49] <humphreybc> but meeting summar
[02:49] <humphreybc> just have a perve at the voting results
[02:49] <humphreybc> that's practically what has to happen :P
[02:49] <humphreybc> wolter: yep
[02:50] <wolter> good =D
[02:50] <humphreybc> we should have a sudo rm -rf / command with \skull beside it....
[02:50] <humphreybc> haha
[02:53] <wolter> hahaha
[02:53] <wolter> yes
[02:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> we should put the (R) at least once
[02:53] <wolter> We should put it short after the titlepage
[02:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> my recommendation is the first time in the manual use the full name of the thing (for example Microsoft(R) Windows(R) Vista, etc)
[02:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> any subsequent time, no need to use the symbol anymore
[02:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> so, basically, once per manual for the \textregistered or \texttrademark per brand
[02:54] <wolter> like, We acknowledge that <list of used registered brands> are registered brands and blah blah blah
[02:54] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It's not really our place to defend or promote anyone else's registered trademarks.  All we should do is capitalize the words appropriately.
[02:54] <humphreybc> lol godbyk you've changed a tonne of stuff :P
[02:55] <wolter> style stuff?
[02:55] <wolter> let me pull
[02:55] <godbyk> A bit.. most of it is just taking out the pre-existing formatting so I can clean it up.
[02:55] <humphreybc> I'll talk to the doc team about what they do
[02:55] <godbyk> So some things will be going back in.
[02:56] <humphreybc> they would know more about legalities
[02:56] <humphreybc> neat
[02:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: it's not a promotion, it's actually a CYA move -- we're acknowledging the fact that the mark we are using is registered
[02:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> but after that, there's no need to do any further mentions
[02:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> this is pretty common for written works (books etc)
[02:56] <wolter> godbyk, I must say I like it, the font is nice to read
[02:57] <wolter> But I think we should adopt a more ubuntu-like style
[02:57] <wolter> and tab headers
[02:57] <wolter> I like the notes better though
[02:57] <godbyk> wolter: The current chapter and section headings are the LaTeX defaults.  I haven't gotten back to reformatting those, yet.
[02:58] <wolter> Also, watch the bullet symbols
[02:58] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I understand, but we're not legally required to specify (R) or TM or SM -- those are used solely by the companies that own those trademarks and service marks.
[02:58] <wolter> and, if there was a way to group near notes, that would be awesome
[02:58] <godbyk> wolter: What about the bullet symbols?
[02:59] <wolter> I don't know, I prefer the old ones (plain circles)
[02:59] <godbyk> The notes appear adjacent to where they were entered by the author.
[03:00] <wolter> lol ---> FLOSS @ chapter 10
[03:01] <humphreybc> hmm the serif font does look quite nice
[03:01] <humphreybc> but it's not "ubuntu" ish
[03:01] <wolter> Also, I think there is a space between bulleted points a little bigger than it should be
[03:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: the problem is that our stuff is competitve in a way.
[03:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> see http://en.allexperts.com/q/Business-Technical-Writing-1516/Trademark-Symbol-Use.htm (the answer to the question references a good manual of style)
[03:02] <IlyaHaykinson_> this is pretty common in technical writing
[03:03] <wolter> or we could just define variables for windows and mac and other common trademarks used
[03:03] <wolter> I don't know...
[03:03] <IlyaHaykinson_> we only need to do it once, not every time
[03:04] <humphreybc> we totally need to get a better R symbol then
[03:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> probably just need to redefine the command to make it smaller and superscript
[03:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> alright, i gotta run to dinner. be back in an hour or so
[03:05] <humphreybc> righto
[03:05] <wolter> Ill play some guitar, ill be here though
[03:07] <humphreybc> wolter you should learn "Gravedigger" by Dave Matthews
[03:07] <humphreybc> I've been learning it, it's a great song. Fairly easy and very effective.
[03:08] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I grabbed my info from the Chicago Manual of Style.
[03:08] <godbyk> It states:
[03:09] <wolter> oh thanks humphreybc I like dave matthews :)
[03:10] <godbyk> "Brand names that are registered trademarks -- often so indicated in dictionaries -- should be capitalized if they must be used. A better choice is to substitute a generic term when available. Although tht esmbols (R) and TM often accompany trademark names on product packaging and in promotional material, ther eis no legal requirement to use these symbols, and they should be ommitted wherever possible. Note also that some companies
[03:10] <godbyk> want people to use both the proper and the generic terms in reference to their products ("Kleenex facial tissues," not just {"Kleenex"), but here again there is no legal requirement
[03:11] <godbyk> Also, from reading online, if you put (R) next to a trademark that is *not* registered in that country, then it is illegal.
[03:11] <godbyk> http://inventors.about.com/od/inventing101trademarks/f/tm_symbol.htm
[03:11] <humphreybc> leave them out then
[03:12] <humphreybc> i'll confirm with the docs team
[03:12] <godbyk> In short, IANAL but from a typographic standpoint, I very much dislike them.  :-)
[03:17] <humphreybc> why on earth are there characters from the simpsons in latex!?
[03:17] <humphreybc> no wonder the download is so damn big!
[03:18] <godbyk> LOL
[03:19] <godbyk> It's kind of like python where if you can think of a feature, there's probably package that implements it already.
[03:20] <humphreybc> hahaha
[03:21] <humphreybc> I would like a feature in Ubuntu that flips my screen around every 5 minutes to a different orientation
[03:21] <humphreybc> so I can stretch my neck
[03:21] <humphreybc> it would reduce RSI
[03:24] <humphreybc> because I spend too bloody long in long meetings and IRC chats....
[03:25] <humphreybc> :P
[03:40] <doctormo_> humphreybc: I should be finished with the first release of ground control tomorrow... it's had some niggles today, but I will get a video out explaining how to use it.
[03:44] <wolter> are you martin owens?
[03:53] <godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, the credits are now in a three-column format.  I also changed the arrow used in the menu selection stuff.  (See page 17 and tell me what you think.)
[04:28] <humphreybc> wolter: yes doctormo is martin
[04:28] <wolter> cool
[04:29] <godbyk> wolter, humphreybc: do the new arrows look better?
[04:29] <humphreybc> yep godbyk they do look good
[04:29] <godbyk> 'kay, cool.
[04:29] <humphreybc> and the credits is definitely an improvement :)
[04:29] <wolter> should I pull?
[04:30] <godbyk> wolter: sure.
[04:31] <wolter> hm godbyk looks nice
[04:31] <wolter> I would prefer the grtclosed though
[04:33] <godbyk> wolter: It looks like grtclosed is only in the Minion Pro font, though, right?  (Did I miss it elsewhere?)
[04:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> for credits, can't we just do them later on (towards the end) by going over bzr logs?
[04:33] <wolter> oh
[04:33] <wolter> oh..
[04:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> instead of maintainign them all the time?
[04:33] <wolter> and how about the one in mnfnt?
[04:33] <wolter> man font or something?
[04:33] <humphreybc> Ilya, yeah probably
[04:34] <humphreybc> I just wanted to get an idea of what it'll look like
[04:35] <godbyk> The MnSymbol package uses the Minion Pro font for its symbols.
[04:52] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: ok, i agree with your research on (R)
[04:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> are Minion Pro fonts open content?
[04:57] <godbyk> I'm not sure what you mean by "open content".
[04:57] <godbyk> I think you can get a version of them for free with Adobe Acrobat Reader (but I'm not sure).
[04:57] <IlyaHaykinson_> it would appear that the fonts are under a commercial license
[04:58] <godbyk> I have a copy that I bought, so I can compile docs using them.. but if you don't have the fonts, it won't look the same when you compile it.
[04:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> they may be free, but they are not a) in the public domain, b) under the GFDL, c) under Creative Commons Attribution or Attribution-ShareAlike
[04:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> thus, they're not "open"
[04:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> which would mean that anyone using them needs to agree to a commercial license
[04:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> https://store4.adobe.com/cfusion/store/html/index.cfm?store=OLS-US&event=displayFontPackage&code=1719
[04:59] <IlyaHaykinson_> it's unfortunately not enough that they're distributed for free with a commercial program
[04:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yes, all of that is true.
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: the change to default-apps/gettingonline.tex with \advancedusage becoming a margin note didn't work
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> first, i really would like to have non-margin paragraph styles
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> i.e. just a differently-highlighted paragraph for advanced usage etc
[05:30] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Is it going to be a warning-like box? or what's its intent?
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> these aren't things that should go in the margin (plus, in this particular case, it breaks the layout completely)
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> no
[05:30] <godbyk> (I have to make a warning paragraph thingy still.)
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> similar to a warning, but more like a paragraph for people who want to be advanced
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> or do advanced things
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> not necessarily anything to watch out for...
[05:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> but also not something i want to just put in the main body without highlighting as being advanced stuff
[05:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> in this particular case, it's a brief discussion of needing to enter a MAC address in certain cases... this is not something i would want to leave in the main body because it'll confuse people.
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> whereas in an "advanced" paragraph frame, it'll clearly stand out enough to be skipped by those who don't care, or specifically looked-at by those who need it
[05:35] <godbyk> It may be better to leave it in the main text (as a normal paragraph), but you'll have to explain to people when they need to enter the MAC address.
[05:35] <godbyk> If it's for "advanced usage," should it be included in the manual in the first place?  (I honestly don't know.)
[05:39] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think it's just one example of something that should be mentioned close to where the discussion is taking place, but very distinctly presented as not being part of the main narrative
[05:39] <IlyaHaykinson_> this is the case for most technical books on my shelf, at least... there's boxes, and notes, etc as needed.
[05:40] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Sure.  Do the boxes in those book tend to attract your attention or do you typically skip over reading them?
[05:40] <godbyk> And in this case, do we want the advanced usage notes to attract attention or minimize it?
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> different readers will do different things. some people will see that it's for advanced use and skip right over it. others will read it.
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> but regardless, it'll be clearly demarcated
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> otherwise, i basically have to do the same demarcation -- but in prose
[05:41] <IlyaHaykinson_> or, alternately, leave it out of the manual altogether
[05:42] <IlyaHaykinson_> neither option sounds appealing :)
[05:42] <godbyk> Okay. Let me work up something here real quick and we'll see how it looks.
[05:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> thank you much
[05:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> btw... quick question.
[05:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> i noticed that with the recent change to the templates, you've removed color
[05:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> while it's fair to say that color will be mostly useless for folks who do print the manual -- i doubt many will waste color ink on it...
[05:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> it looks like the majority of our readers will not be printing it
[05:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> which means that we can use color, at least lightly, to help distinguish main section headings from subheadings
[05:48] <IlyaHaykinson_> font size is certainly a good hint too, but it may not be enough when the point difference between section, subsection, and subsubsection is as small as it is currently
[06:04] <godbyk> Yeah, I have to reformat the headings.
[06:05] <godbyk> I basically reverted a lot of the formatting to its original LaTeX defaults and I'm now applying the formatting decisions we made earlier.
[06:05] <godbyk> So the headings will be getting a makeover soon.
[06:05] <godbyk> Hopefully people aren't going so deep on the heading levels (hierarchy) that it becomes difficult to follow.
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, nifty, thanks. if possible, don't keep identing like we did before
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> it created such huge margins that the content looked really funny.
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> most books, imho, don't use section indentation.
[06:06] <godbyk> (Similar to: Just because you have <h1> through <h7> in HTML doesn't mean you *should* have seven levels of headings in your document.)
[06:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> oh. right. i think our current three level set up is actually quite good.
[06:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> keeps us restrained.
[06:07] <godbyk> I haven't looked into everyone's writing, so I'm not sure how far people are going.  Hopefully subsection is low enough. :-)
[06:07] <godbyk> (Also, it means there are fewer headings I have to format! :-))
[06:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, section, subsection, subsubsection is what i meant by three levels.
[06:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think we could do with two levels, though so far just chap 3 (me) and chap 5 are using subsubsection
[06:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> which is rather to say that not a lot of other sections are fleshed out yet. :)
[06:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> personally i'd prefer if we leave all three levels handy. my chapter is very long, and i have to use sections one per application.
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> so really subsection and subsubsection are my two levels of hierarchy on a regular basis.
[06:11] <IlyaHaykinson_> (in other words: i'd vote to keep subsub, if possible)
[06:12] <godbyk> Gotcha.
[06:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> ooh, gedit has a latex plugin
[06:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> ...complete with an embedded preview. very nice.
[06:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> btw, quick hit from the survey so far: nearly 40% of respondents say that they would be interested in printing the manual.
[06:45] <godbyk> wow.
[06:46] <godbyk> Since we're generating PDFs, we could also easily use a publish-on-demand site (like lulu.com) and people could buy printed copies.
[06:50] <godbyk> Btw, wolter, your \begin{comment} blah blah \end{comment} stuff should work now (though I haven't tested it).
[06:58] <wolter> oh thanks, you are really efficient godbyk :)
[06:59] <godbyk> wolter: I can't take much credit for that one.. It required \RequirePackage{comment}.
[06:59] <godbyk> Done! :-)
[06:59] <wolter> haha
[06:59] <godbyk> One of the best things about LaTeX is that if there's a feature you want, chances are someone's already written a package to implement it.
[06:59] <wolter> nice
[07:00] <wolter> i never knew about latex and how convenient it was until I joined this project
[07:00] <wolter> godbyk, and how do you write the style?
[07:00] <wolter> it is not CSS, is it?
[07:00] <godbyk> Nope, it's not CSS.  It's TeX -- its own language.
[07:01] <godbyk> You can take a look at the ubuntu-manual.cls to see what it looks like.
[07:01] <wolter> oh
[07:01] <godbyk> (most of the interesting code is toward the bottom.)
[07:01] <wolter> nice
[07:01] <wolter> good to know, I might play around with it a little later
[07:01] <godbyk> TeX is a typesetting language written by Donald Knuth in the late 70s and early 80s.
[07:02] <godbyk> It evolved into a Turing-complete language, so while it may not be easy, you really can do some crazy things with it.
[07:03] <wolter> Worked like a charm
[07:03] <wolter> yeah well, I wouldn't call it hard wither
[07:04] <wolter> either*
[07:04] <wolter> at least not LaTeX
[07:04] <wolter> (i've heard latex is different from tex)
[07:07] <godbyk> LaTeX is a set of macros built using the TeX language.
[07:07] <godbyk> Kind of a framework, so to speak.
[07:07] <godbyk> So LaTeX has nice syntactic sugar and commands/macros to simplify things for us mere writers.
[07:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, you know, one thing is quite annoying with our current layout: it's made for printing....
[07:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> so the margins shift between inside/outside
[07:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> and that means the content keeps shifting too
[07:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> makes reading the PDF, linearly, kind of distracting as the left alignment of text shifts with every page.
[07:11] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, that'll change in a bit.
[07:11] <godbyk> (It's just a matter of saying \LoadClass[oneside]{book} instead of \LoadClass[twoside]{book}.)
[07:11] <godbyk> In evince, I go to View > Dual.
[07:11] <godbyk> Then it looks all pretty again.
[07:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> plus, the alternating-margins only makes sense when printed in book form...
[07:12] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: alright. perhaps eventually, if we decide to offer an actual book version, we can have an alternate set of classes that do this twoside thing
[07:13] <godbyk> Yep.  I'm designing it on now so I don't have a bunch of work to do later.
[07:13] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, yes, pretty, though just by virtue of being side-by-side :)  thanks though.
[07:13] <godbyk> When we switch to oneside, it will just use the formatting and page layout of the right-hand-side page.
[07:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> nod. makes sense.
[07:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> thanks
[07:16] <wolter> oh.. now i understand why the text body shifts
[07:17] <godbyk> There is, in fact, a reason to the madness!  <grin>
[07:21] <wolter> haha
[07:21] <wolter> hey godbyk, is there a way I can separate my file into various and just include the text from the main file?
[07:22] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: see how i did it in default-apps
[07:22] <godbyk> wolter: Yep.
[07:22] <godbyk> Just split your file into multiple .tex files.
[07:22] <wolter> nice
[07:23] <godbyk> Then in your main chapter .tex file, use \include{sec1} \include{sec2} etc.
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> can't use include, i think... gotta use input
[07:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> include doesn't allow you to nest other includes
[07:23] <godbyk> If you use \include, it will insert a page break.  If you use \input it won't.
[07:23] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Ah, that sounds vaguely familiar.
[07:24] <godbyk> (I never split my docs so far down. I usually keep one chapter per file.)
[07:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> yeah
[07:24] <godbyk> Inkscape isn't exporting this icon to PDF in a very nice way.  :-(
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> the warning one?
[07:25] <godbyk> yeah
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> shouldn't it be a .PS or whatnot?
[07:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> and theoretically there should be SVG -> PS conversion?
[07:26] <godbyk> Well, I'm hoping to bypass the tex -> ps -> pdf pipeline and go straight from tex to pdf.
[07:26] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah, during the build process?
[07:26] <wolter> godbyk, yeah, inkscape is giving me fun too
[07:27] <wolter> with transparencies
[07:27] <wolter> ?
[07:27] <godbyk> that's my guess.  not sure, though.
[07:28] <godbyk> I'd hate to have to export a nice vector graphic to a lame raster graphic.
[07:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> EPS is vector, isn't it?
[07:34] <godbyk> yes, but I don't think pdflatex likes it.
[07:34] <godbyk> plain latex will eat eps just fine, I think.
[07:34] <godbyk> unfortunately, plain latex doesn't like pngs (but pdflatex does).  (if I remember correctly)
[07:34] <godbyk> has to do with the differences in ps vs. pdf.
[07:38] <wolter> hey godbyk so the cover doesn't have to be in pdf format?
[07:38] <wolter> If it can be plain png and pdflatex works it nice, then i'm so relieved
[07:39] <wolter> anyway godbyk, how would I change the text color of chapters when editing the ubuntu-manual.cls ?
[07:39] <godbyk> Well, I *think* that using PDF for the cover and warning icons (and any other vector graphics) may reduce the resulting PDF file size.. but I'm not positive.  (I'd have to experiment to see.)
[07:39] <godbyk> If it comes down to it, we can use PNG graphics throughout, though.
[07:39] <wolter> would reduce quality of the cover then as well, wouldn't it?
[07:40] <godbyk> Yes, the PNG format would compress it and things like gradients may not fare as well, we'll have to see.
[07:41] <godbyk> Editing the colors of headings isn't the easiest thing to do.  Since we're using the titlesec package, it makes it a bit easier, but it still rather confusing.
[07:41] <godbyk> If you type 'texdoc titlesec' at the prompt, it will open up the documentation for the titlesec package.
[07:49] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: I just pushed an update that includes \warning and \advanced.
[07:49] <godbyk> I'll fix them to use nice icons after I'm done beating up inkscape (or after I've given in to it).
[07:51] <wolter> haha
[07:51] <wolter> I know a bit of inkscape so if I could help you with anything just ask
[07:55] <godbyk> wolter: Just for you, I restored the colors of the headings. :-)
[07:56] <wolter> ooh nice
[07:56] <wolter> let me pull
[07:56] <godbyk> (People are probably tired of seeing commit emails from me!)
[07:57] <wolter> haha, don't bother.. but I think you should make the font bigger and bold, as it was before. Anyway, don't feel compelled to do it right now, even though your kindness would be well appreaciated
[07:59] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: nice updates, thanks.
[07:59] <godbyk> I just set them sans serif and bold.  I'll have to play with the font sizes tomorrow, I think.  I want to make sure there's a clear hierarchy between the different heading levels.
[08:00] <godbyk> It's 2 a.m. here, so I think I'll head to bed.  I'll continuing the formatting stuff tomorrow.
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> besides, godbyk, i think i bother ppl with just as many commits as you.
[08:00] <godbyk> (Feel free to email me, file bugs, or leave messages on IRC for me while I'm away and I'll look into all of it in the morning.)
[08:00] <wolter> ok, thanks :)
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> and, godbyk, thanks for the great work you are doing on the layout.
[08:01] <wolter> yeah, i like memoserv
[08:01] <godbyk> wolter: Works for me!
[08:01] <godbyk> Okay, g'night guys.
[08:01] <wolter> gnight
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> alright, midnight for me, time for bed as well.
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> bye folks.
[08:11] <wolter> bye IlyaHaykinson
[10:08] <jmburgess> hey everyone
[10:17] <jmburgess> wow
[10:20] <jmburgess> godyk has done a crap ton
[10:20] <jmburgess> he is a lot better than me at this
[11:48] <jmburgess> hey tya
[11:48] <jmburgess> or sorry XiXaQ
[11:48] <XiXaQ> :)
[11:48] <XiXaQ> what the hell does that quit message mean?
[11:48] <XiXaQ> * XiXaQ has quit (Success) ?
[11:50] <jmburgess> haha
[11:50] <jmburgess> it means that you quit and that was the comment your client gave
[11:50] <jmburgess> not ure why
[11:51] <XiXaQ> no, I didn't quit.
[11:51] <XiXaQ> also, that wouldn't look like that. That would look like * XiXaQ has quit (quit: Success)
[11:51] <XiXaQ> wouldn't it?
[11:52] <XiXaQ> hmm. Maybe not. * IlyaHaykinson_ has quit ("nitenite")
[11:55] <jmburgess> yeah i am pretty sure it is your client that does that
[12:13] <pererik87> someones earning karma:   	  (no translation yet)
[12:13] <pererik87> 	Translated and reviewed by Fredrik Sudmann on 2010-01-15 :P
[12:18] <pererik87> omg thats so annoying its everywhere.
[16:14] <kell05> Does anyone know how the manual is going to be delivered to the end user?
[16:17] <pererik87> I don't really know. i hope it wont compete with Ubuntu Help Center in system -> help and support
[16:31] <kell05> It might be wise to consider this now, especially since the document must be VERY visible to noobies.  Has it been considered asking ubuntuguide.org for a merge of the two projects?
[16:33] <pererik87> i didn't know about Ubuntu Help center before today. im so used to overlooking help symbols in windows, because they never did me any good
[16:34] <pererik87> I guess its a common problem among newbies also
[16:40] <kell05> You can lead a horse to water...
[16:41] <pererik87> i think ubuntu manual is the more to be printed form of help. i believe it could follow with new computers. UHC also needs to be sync. with the manual.
[16:42] <kell05> Never thought of a printed version.
[16:46] <pererik87> I don't know anything right now, i thought this was a UHC project. i didnt know it existed
[16:47] <pererik87> But i think it looks very good as a print. have you seen the front page layout and so. amazing
[17:02] <kell05> Any reason why my minor changes were rejected?  I added labels to the chapters to allow for cross referencing then alamati made modifications for version 124 and deleted them.  I am new to Open source development, so I just want to get my head round it so it doesn't happen again.
[17:04] <pererik87> The big guys live in another timezone. ask again in a few hours. I don't know the answer sorry
[18:21] <jmburgess> kell05: wait I am pretty sure we don't have a review process
[18:27] <kell05> Fair enough.
[18:39] <pererik87> what do i do with the one posting (not translated yet) as translations for stuff?
[19:05] <wolter> heyo
[20:01]  * dutchie writes up the translations process
[20:46] <godbyk> kell05: Per your earlier question, it was probably just due to someone not merging your changes before they commit (or something like that).  That's my guess, at least.
[20:46] <godbyk> kell05: Though, the labels should come *after* \chapter, otherwise they won't do what you think.
[20:47] <kell05> Ah, that was a screw up on the sed oneliner I used.
[20:48] <kell05> Cheers
[20:48] <godbyk> Once we have labels we can start using real cross-referencing instead of hard-coding it.
[20:49] <godbyk> (It'd been on my TODO list, so I'm glad someone's picked it up!)
[20:57] <dutchie> right, I just pushed an update on the translations
[20:57] <dutchie> if it screws the already-done ones up again, tell
[21:15] <godbyk> Hey, dutchie, has the Makefile ever been modified or is it the stock LaTeX Makefile?
[21:15] <dutchie> no, but I was going to at some point
[21:15] <godbyk> If there's nothing special in it, I'll probably replace it with one that uses pdflatex instead of plain latex.
[21:15] <dutchie> not just sed -i 's/latex/pdflatex/'?
[21:16] <dutchie> it seems pretty powerful, and I've got kind of used to it
[21:16] <godbyk> Can't, 'cause it's trying to be too smart about things.
[21:16] <dutchie> what, like images?
[21:16] <godbyk> It expects to take the .tex -> .ps -> .pdf path.
[21:16] <godbyk> images and hyperlinks, yeah.
[21:17] <dutchie> yeah, it might be easier to deal with a Makefile we've built ourselves
[21:17] <dutchie> it does have some pretty nice features, like all that colourised output
[21:17] <godbyk> I do like the colorized output.
[21:18] <godbyk> I'll try to see if we can keep that or find another colorizer.
[21:18] <godbyk> btw, do the po4a comments in the tex code tell po4a to handle it in a special way or something?  (just curious.. I've never used po4a)
[21:19] <dutchie> it complains if it doesn't know what's going on
[21:19] <dutchie> don't think it treats it differently or anythign
[21:21] <godbyk> Ah, okay.  Should I be adding those comments (and if so, when?), or is it easy enough for you to keep up with?
[21:22] <dutchie> well, all these extra commits are a pain
[21:22] <dutchie> just add them in whenever you do a new environment
[21:22] <dutchie> I assume you can work out the format?
[21:23] <godbyk> I can do that.  Do I add them for commands, too?
[21:23] <dutchie> don't think so
[21:23] <godbyk> 'kay.
[21:23]  * dutchie double-checks
[21:23] <godbyk> Well, I'll set up a new Makefile then and maybe we can see about automating the translations, too.
[21:24] <dutchie> yeah
[21:24] <dutchie> encodings are going to be a pain
[21:25] <godbyk> Yeah, that'll be interesting.
[21:25] <godbyk> If things get too hairy, we can always try switching over to XeLaTeX.  It'll let us use any font we want and works a lot better with unicode, I think.