[14:32] <kwwii> vish: did you see that I approved the merge?
[14:41] <vish> kwwii: yeah.. so do i now set the status to merge or how to do it ... ?
[14:42] <kwwii> vish: lol, not sure...the other times I did it the people with changes new what to do
[14:42] <vish> hehe.. ;)
[14:42] <kwwii> vish: I can merge your stuff into human, I thought that lp did it somehow
[14:43] <vish> kwwii: i think the owner of the main branch has to do the merge
[14:45] <kwwii> vish: ok, I'll do that sometime soon
[14:45] <vish> k..
[14:45] <kwwii> I'm trying to get my lucid test system back up and running before I leave for london
[15:16] <vish> kwwii: if you have the main branch , then it seems doing  $bzr merge https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632+bug495644/+merge/17538
[15:17] <vish> or  $bzr merge lp:~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632+bug495644
[15:17] <kwwii> vish: yeah, but that returns errors
[15:17] <vish> kwwii: but eitherway , the branch owner has to do it ;)
[15:17] <vish> hmm.. :(
[15:17] <kwwii> kwwii@ballard:~/bzr/human-theme$ bzr merge https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632+bug495644
[15:17] <kwwii> bzr: ERROR: KnitPackRepository('file:///home/kwwii/bzr/human-theme/.bzr/repository/')
[15:17] <kwwii> is not compatible with
[15:17] <kwwii> CHKInventoryRepository('http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632%2Bbug495644/.bzr/repository/', fallback_repositories=[CHKInventoryRepository('http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/lucid/.bzr/repository/')])
[15:17] <kwwii> different rich-root support
[15:18] <vish> kwwii: did you try with the second method? with "lp:~"
[15:28] <kwwii> vish: I get the same error
[15:35] <vish> bah... :s
[15:36] <kwwii> hrm, I fixed that problem only to find another
[15:36] <kwwii> :p
[15:36] <kwwii> kwwii@ballard:~/bzr/human-theme$ bzr merge https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632+bug495644
[15:36] <kwwii> bzr: ERROR: Branches have no common ancestor, and no merge base revision was specified.
[15:37]  * vish hates the machines ...! :/  
[15:37] <vish> they should just do want we think we want ;p
[15:37] <kwwii> lol
[15:43] <kwwii> how is one supposed to install fonts on ubuntu?
[15:49] <vish> kwwii: if you view the fonts , in the font viewer , it will have a button "Install font"
[15:57] <kwwii> vish: thnx ;)
[16:04] <kwwii> vish: erm, your changes do not show up in the changelog
[16:04] <kwwii> and you didn't start from the latest lp:human-theme
[16:05] <vish> kwwii: the changelog i didnt change because it didnt have entry of the previous changes
[16:05] <kwwii> I think you need to re-add your changes to the human-theme and then update the changelog
[16:05] <kwwii> ?
[16:05]  * vish tries to find new lp:human-theme
[16:06] <vish> kwwii: isnt this the latest?
[16:06] <vish> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/lucid
[16:07] <vish> that was the one i used.. :(
[16:07] <kwwii> it should not be...if it is there is a dev out there who should be smacked around
[16:07] <kwwii> and anyway, I cannot update that
[16:08] <kwwii> the main packaging is in the ubuntu-art-pkg team which then goes into the distro
[16:08] <vish> ah.. ok let me find the right one :)
[16:08] <kwwii> lp:human-theme should give you the right one
[16:09] <vish> got it... i followed the links from the bugs :/
[16:09] <vish> *got the right one... the wrong one was
[16:10] <vish> from the bugs :/
[16:10] <thorwil> heh, and here i always just copied fonts to /usr/share/fonts/...
[16:12] <vish> thorwil: alternatively you can also copy fonts to the ~/.fonts folder ;)
[16:12] <vish> so we have several ways to do just one thing o.0
[16:13] <thorwil> of course, because linux is about choice of how you shoot yourself in the foot after wasting lots of time on research
[16:35] <vish> kwwii: tada... >  https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../human-theme/bug507632+bug495644/+merge/17665
[16:39] <kwwii> vish: not quite, sorry to say
[16:39] <kwwii> you updated the wrong changelog :p
[16:39] <vish> bah. :s
[16:39] <kwwii> you need to go into the source and run dch -i
[16:40] <kwwii> that will open an editor with the debian/changelog file and the right changes
[16:40] <vish> damn it !
[16:40]  * vish kicks self
[16:40] <kwwii> you just need to add your comment
[16:40] <kwwii> sorry
[16:40] <kwwii> I know this is annoying
[16:40] <kwwii> but I cannot change your stuff
[16:41] <vish> kwwii: yeah... i was wondering where the changelog was :s
[17:17]  * vish silently points kwwii to > https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../human-theme/bug507632-bug495644/+merge/17671
[17:39] <kwwii> vish: it should be done now, just needs sponsoring in main
[17:47] <vish> cool
[18:04] <Equiet> I do understand right, that GTK CSS engine is only about a syntax and not CSS features?
[18:20] <vish> lol troy_s , nice comment message for the wiki ;)
[18:20] <troy_s> vish: Oops. You weren't supposed to read that _that_ fast.
[18:21] <troy_s> vish: You _really_ have your ear to the ground. ;)
[18:22] <troy_s> vish: It _really_ is a shame. Worse, you guys are being steered by someone with zero clue on art direction. It is painful to watch.
[18:22] <vish> :)
[18:24] <vish> troy_s: the funny thing is , now even the name of the project "Ubuntu manual" isnt final... ;)  the project seemed a bit organized at first but... :s
[18:24] <troy_s> vish: Whatever. There will be more medding from higher up and _no_ one will pay attention to design issues until the last possible moment.
[18:27] <vish> troy_s: for the photo what did you use as a base?
[18:30] <troy_s> vish: Erm?
[18:30] <troy_s> vish: Sorry... don't understand you.
[18:31] <vish> troy_s: is stop-spec-work.jpg a photo ? or ...
[18:31] <troy_s> vish: It's a comp.
[18:31] <vish> troy_s: ah.. nice :)  [suspected it ]
[18:32] <troy_s> vish: Really really quick comp.
[18:32] <thorwil> troy_s: heh, i doubt that message will be understood.
[18:32] <troy_s> thorwil: Well it is as much for you guys as them.
[18:32] <thorwil> troy_s: maybe you didn't think hard enough about your intended audience ;p
[18:33] <troy_s> thorwil: There will be no changing the culture if it doesn't happen from the inside.
[18:33]  * vish bets it might be removed by them ;)
[18:33] <troy_s> thorwil: Agreed.
[18:33] <troy_s> vish: That's fine.
[18:34] <troy_s> vish: The point is that (1) The output will only be as solid as the art director. In this case, I'd worry when someone uses terms such as "professional" and "shinier" and then goes on to "love the top half with the laptop and the icons around it"
[18:35] <troy_s> vish: and (2) Iterative design needs a solid starting point and a goal. You can't keep four or five people guessing - it wastes time, energy, and leaves _everyone_ disappointed with the outcome.
[18:35] <vish> yeah...
[18:36] <troy_s> vish: Look no further than the wandering and utterly wasted commentary at the bottom. "Let's go this way!" "No! Let's go that way!" "No, it's not easy on the eyes!" "That one looks really professional!"
[18:36] <troy_s> vish: It's utter rubbish. The bikeshed ultimately stems from the leadership - where there is a clearly lacking goal and set of design constraints, the bikeshed opens.
[18:36] <thorwil> troy_s: i was blinded by the wiki and thought the project would be more mature. the language you cite worried me, of course
[18:36] <vish> troy_s: well , they're kids what can you say ;p
[18:37] <troy_s> thorwil / vish: It's all good in the end, if we can at least make baby steps in the right direction. Currently it is unfolding as nothing more than a spec contest. The destination will be nothing but darkness.
[18:38] <thorwil> troy_s: so are you going to explain all this to Humphrey / say it on one of the teams channels?
[18:39] <troy_s> thorwil / vish: Remember too that this absolutely uh... lost(?) product design was steered, developed, and approved. It was a paid design no doubt as well, officially labelling it as 'professional' - http://blog.canonical.com/?p=18
[18:39] <vish> thorwil: i'd think it would be more of the doc ML replies again ;)
[18:39] <troy_s> thorwil: I'd seriously doubt that _anyone_ would listen to what some idiot on the etherweb would have to say.
[18:40] <troy_s> thorwil: "What the heck are we trying to accomplish here?" reads as noise and stop energy to anyone with less than 2% interest in art / design.
[18:40] <troy_s> http://blog.canonical.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/bestbuy.jpg
[18:41] <troy_s> Remember, that thing got approved. Someone, somewhere, with some massive insight said "THAT'S IT - THAT'S PERFECT!"
[18:41] <troy_s> vish: Which was my entire point with "Who is the art director?" ;)
[18:42] <thorwil> troy_s: seeing that thing again, i want to return to the real world now, and leave this satire behind
[18:42] <vish> AFAIK , none
[18:43] <vish> heh , never knew Ubuntu has a boxed set ;)
[18:43] <troy_s> vish: There is always a design direction, even in the absence of caring.
[18:45] <vish> troy_s: what app do you use for comp.?
[18:46] <troy_s> vish: I use the unfortunately cumbersome tools we have. The only one that gives me a degree of faith is Blender, but I am also forced into using GIMP. Inkscape as well.
[18:48] <troy_s> Another classic - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_a6LMj16lz7g/SHNHgsFrshI/AAAAAAAAAF0/LroXB2GsQYg/s400/ubuntu_cd_cover.png
[18:48] <thorwil> troy_s: do you know https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BusinessCards ?
[18:49] <troy_s> thorwil: I do now.
[18:49] <troy_s> thorwil: No screenie there.
[18:49] <thorwil> troy_s: the fun is in the linked files
[18:49] <troy_s> thorwil: ?
[18:50] <troy_s> thorwil: Ariel?
[18:50] <thorwil> troy_s: one SVG template with text that runs off the page
[18:50] <troy_s> thorwil: I'm sure that fits perfectly with the rest of the design.
[18:50] <thorwil> troy_s: or text turned into pathes. a non free font
[18:51] <troy_s> thorwil: In theory that gets into sticky ground.
[18:51] <thorwil> troy_s: a distorted CoF in the background
[18:51] <troy_s> thorwil: You _are_ effectively distributing the source to a glyph. I'm pretty sure that some restrictive typeface license would probably find that against the eula.
[18:52] <thorwil> troy_s: yeah. anyway, this thing should be editable on an ubuntu installation. i don't think using a free font would hurt the design
[18:53] <troy_s> thorwil: Well not considering someone bloody well chose Arial which is very close to being a Helvetica knock off.
[18:54] <thorwil> troy_s: of course any change regarding the templates would need an OK from Canonical. meanwhile this mess shows nobody actually took responsibility ...
[18:55] <thorwil> how's that for great culture?
[18:55] <troy_s> thorwil: You are trying to treat symptoms.
[18:55] <thorwil> troy_s: so far i only noted this one
[18:56] <troy_s> thorwil: One could cite a broad number of instances which all ultimately stem from a higher level.
[18:58] <troy_s> thorwil / vish: Anyways, keep the chin up. You guys should roll Wolter into the mix and actually show some shared support. Refuse to do anything until you get a discourse.
[18:59] <thorwil> troy_s: that's what i was thinking about a bit earlier. plus Mr. Nell. no idea where wolter might stand, actually
[19:00] <troy_s> thorwil: While we are forced into operating differently than the mainstream, the stopping of spec work is equivalent. There is no reason that a project can't adopt a design team and iterate with them / her / him.
[19:01] <troy_s> thorwil / vish: It makes sense, stops the absolutely abhorrent contest driven culture, and will ultimately lead to better work.
[19:08] <vish> yeah.
[19:09] <thorwil> vish: i'm talking with wolter in the manual channel
[19:09] <troy_s> thorwil: There is a channel?
[19:11] <thorwil> troy_s: #ubuntu-manual
[19:11] <thorwil> troy_s: reaction on your work: thorwil, did that guy really print out a titlepage?
[19:12] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL.
[19:12] <troy_s> thorwil: Tell him thanks for the flattery.
[19:12] <troy_s> thorwil: I guess even really really really quick comps can fool a few.
[19:16] <thorwil> troy_s: is this in in line with your thoughts?: http://www.no-spec.com/
[19:17] <troy_s> thorwil: Yes, but for different reasons entirely.
[19:18] <thorwil> troy_s: was just asked to explain spec work ...
[19:19] <thorwil> hmm, http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/
[19:26] <troy_s> thorwil: Make no mistake, my distaste for spec / contest is the quality of output - the natural iterative design process. We are a culture and we have issues to deal with.
[19:26] <troy_s> thorwil: Another solid take on it from a fellow that creates some pretty impressive work. http://www.davidairey.com/spec-work-in-the-internet-age/
[19:30] <troy_s> http://www.davidairey.com/logo-design-contests-bad-for-business/
[20:21] <vish> *sigh*
[20:22] <troy_s> vish: ?
[20:23] <vish> troy_s: oh , not you ;) ... just that the manual project is an unnecessary duplication ;)
[20:23] <troy_s> vish: More epic fail design thinking. Go into a library and scream out that there are too many books.
[20:24] <vish> troy_s: nah , not design , but the manual IMO , i dont see it being able to sustain over the long run :(
[20:24] <troy_s> vish: If there is any duplication in earnest, then the teams haven't clearly defined their audiences. If there is only duplication in content but the language is different, then it is a justified design choice. I can't comment too much as I don't know the full issue at hand.
[20:25] <vish> troy_s: they sort of intend to replace the help center [yelp documentation] rather than improving it or showing ways to improve it
[20:27] <troy_s> vish: Hrm... Part of me wonders if there were a chance of improvement and incremental progress, why hasn't it been adopted yet? Things generally are a certain way because some party wants them that way.
[20:27] <vish> and i dont really understand why you need a cover page for the purpose it is intending :s   ... the first impression for an in-place help is the contents..
[20:27] <troy_s> vish: Most books have covers. Ebooks included. ;
[20:27] <troy_s> :)
[20:27] <troy_s> vish: Not exactly radical.
[20:27] <troy_s> vish: Did you know there was a time when albums didn't have covers?
[20:28] <troy_s> vish: In fact, albums came in white sheets.
[20:28] <vish> ;)
[20:28] <troy_s> vish: The original album distributor released the same album twice (some spikey arty designer type decided to do an album cover)
[20:28] <vish> troy_s: that is packaging , when you have the user looking for help , you dont want the user to scroll the contents of the pdf , rather you would want to just click and go to what you want
[20:29] <troy_s> vish: The result? Despite it being an identical copy of an orchestral Beethoven rendering in BOTH versions, the one with the album cover outsold it by something of an order of a magnitude. And with that, album covers were born...
[20:29] <troy_s> vish: Hrm... you are very confident in your estimation.
[20:29] <troy_s> vish: What is a user?
[20:30] <troy_s> vish: Sounds like some strange background cardboard cutout character...
[20:31] <troy_s> vish: Could not the same case be made for music in a player? "Just click and play! That's what people want!". If that were the case, Apple would never have developed CoverFlow nor the LP format.
[20:31] <vish> troy_s: they want to address this user >  "Now he says "ok, how do I work this thing?"" quoting them
[20:31] <troy_s> vish: I caution you to use terms like 'user' when you really are dealing with an extremely vast and complicated set of _people_.
[20:32] <troy_s> vish: With that statement you made a series of _massive_ judgement calls. You probably didn't notice, but you also made a egocentric judgement call too - 'him'.
[20:32] <vish> troy_s: cover flow _is_ contents of the library ;)
[20:33] <troy_s> vish: What I am getting at is that in spite of your legitimate attempt to make things better, you are actually bundling up a horrible amount of judgement calls and estimations. Some might be close for a given audience, some might be _far_ off for another.
[20:33] <troy_s> vish: Better should have been 'better'.
[20:35] <troy_s> vish: In the end, 'user' is a blind and useless term.
[20:35] <vish> troy_s: IMO ,[i maybe wrong ;)  ] just a plain cover isnt helpful for a in-place help docs... its like opening the iTunes and the user having to select/click an awesome apple logo to enter... its just adding an unnecessary step to what the usr is actually trying to achive
[20:36] <troy_s> vish: Hrm... what about a book reader that uses the first page as the icon?
[20:36] <troy_s> vish: Does typesetting matter if you can read it?
[20:36] <troy_s> vish: What about the typeface chosen?
[20:36] <vish> troy_s: that definitely needs a cover :) ..
[20:37] <troy_s> vish: Does a book have a presence? If not, why do publishers spend large amounts of money soliciting artists? Is it purely off-the-shelf advertising or maybe something else?
[20:38] <vish> books need covers no questions/rebuttals ;)
[20:38] <vish> but they hope for the manual to be a help center..   I would think having a stylized contents page would be better...
[20:38] <troy_s> vish: It's pretty complicated. While I'd agree that in some contexts for some audiences, they are nothing more than a frivolity, in some other situations they are functional and even desireable.
[20:39] <vish> troy_s: but when they want the manual to be a book it sounds good to use a cover.. my whole point is _they_ dont really know what audience they want to serve :(
[20:39] <troy_s> vish: Heck - what is a beginner? Someone with zero computing experience? What are the chances that they would be installing Ubuntu? How does that affect the language? Is there a glossary? Do you need one?
[20:39] <troy_s> vish: Bingo.
[20:40] <troy_s> vish: We are _horribly_ egocentric in Free Software - a growing pain. We make gross estimations as to what is _obvious to us_ and _assume_ that they are obvious or pertinent to others. It's growing pains.
[20:41] <vish> ;) lot of folks are egocentric for sure
[20:42] <vish> troy_s: the driving force for the person who started the manual project , is "This will surely get me an Ubuntu membership" ..
[20:43] <troy_s> vish: Yikes.
[20:43] <vish> he was rejected earlier for membership
[20:46] <troy_s> vish: Anyways... hopefully it will get sorted out.
[20:48] <vish>  he surely has a lot of enthusiasm , hope it eventually helps the community :)
[21:00] <thorwil> vish: do you have that first hand, the driving force?
[21:01] <vish> thorwil: i'v been logged on the channel since it was started... ;)
[21:01] <thorwil> i don't know if i have a whole lot of respect for someone who puts becoming-a-member first
[21:01] <thorwil> vish: heh, be my spy :)
[21:02] <troy_s> thorwil: Ugh. Were you chatting over in the channel?
[21:02] <thorwil> troy_s: yes, and writing email to everyone who made a design proposal
[21:03] <troy_s> thorwil: Don't be prickly about it. The issue is a larger one.
[21:10]  * thorwil learned how to use Mako templates with the Google App Engine earlier today. well, almost
[21:10] <thorwil> good night! :)
[23:30] <wolter> hi, is there a way I can make a particular icon set position emblems differently?
[23:31] <wolter> I dislike how the Humanity theme puts them up to the right and not down, like other themes used to
[23:58] <troy_s> wolter: What do you mean?
[23:58] <troy_s> wolter: Strictly emblem positions?
[23:58] <wolter> troy_s, yes
[23:59] <troy_s> wolter: Did you try googling "control emblem positions gnome"?