[03:14]  * humphreybc just made a showcase of his Ubuntu desktop, check it out :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMDjzqc9cIo
[04:21] <sebsebseb> hi
[04:21] <sebsebseb> wolter: hi
[04:21] <wolter> hey sebsebseb
[04:21] <wolter> again
[04:23] <sebsebseb> wolter: yeah hi again, so what do you want me to see/read
[04:24] <wolter> sebsebseb, chapter 5: software and packaging
[04:24] <wolter> you can download the pdf in the launchpad site, need a link?
[04:28] <sebsebseb> wolter: oh your doing typing for it now as well?
[04:28] <wolter> Yeah.. I always did
[04:28] <wolter> Even before I made the cover
[04:28] <sebsebseb> oh right yeah, I forgot for  a second or whatever
[04:28] <wolter> I was working on another section
[04:28] <wolter> ok
[04:29] <sebsebseb> or no I thought you were only doing the cover
[04:37] <sebsebseb> wolter: i'll look next time or whatever, I don't feel like it tonight
[04:37] <wolter> oh ok
[04:37] <wolter> no problem
[04:37] <sebsebseb> I was going to do  Lucid alpha 2 in a vm the other night
[04:37] <sebsebseb> actsaully install it,  I mentioned that here
[04:37] <sebsebseb> I ended up doing in a vm then or soon after,  the live session only
[04:38] <sebsebseb> humphreybc: you tried it? like it?
[04:45] <wolter> oh hi humphreybc
[04:45] <wolter> hey sebsebseb, do you still have that vm?
[04:45] <wolter> Cause I would like to ask you some questions about software cente
[04:46] <wolter> r
[04:46] <humphreybc> hi wolter
[04:46] <sebsebseb> I have alpha 1 in a vm.  and  alpha 2 well I got a virtual hard disk for it, but not installed on it yet,  I just ran the live session  last time from the ISO
[04:46] <sebsebseb> wolter: I don't like software centre much,  it had some proper useage in Karmic the other day
[04:47] <humphreybc> does anyone know how to insert a line space?
[04:47] <sebsebseb> wolter: with my little brother
[04:48] <sebsebseb> yeah software centre really isn't that good at the moment, when wanting to install quite a lot of apps at once
[04:48] <wolter> sebsebseb, its actually agreed on calling it center and not centre
[04:48] <wolter> ;)
[04:48] <sebsebseb> wolter: wrong
[04:48] <sebsebseb> well
[04:48] <wolter> humphreybc, line space?
[04:48] <godbyk> humphreybc: You want to skip a lone?  \smallskip
[04:48] <humphreybc> yea
[04:48] <wolter> sebsebseb, no... correct.
[04:48] <humphreybc> okay
[04:49] <humphreybc> does that go in the line spaceA?
[04:49] <sebsebseb> wolter: by default it's center, because of how American (usanian) English is the default for most computer software
[04:49] <sebsebseb> ,but really the British way is the only true English
[04:49] <wolter> yeah I bet, but I mean Ubuntu agreed on calling it center and not centre
[04:49] <godbyk> humphreybc: You can also use \medskip or \bigskip for larger blank spaces.
[04:49] <humphreybc> awesome :)
[04:49] <sebsebseb> and so also in en GB it's Centre in the menu
[04:49] <sebsebseb> wolter: so what
[04:50] <wolter> sebsebseb, no nothing, thats what I meant
[04:50] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu are also quite American these days, even though where Canonical HQ is located
[04:50] <wolter> Usanian, you mean, sebsebseb ?
[04:50] <sebsebseb> wolter: yes
[04:50] <wolter> hahaha
[04:51] <sebsebseb> Ubuntu is getting rather American yeah
[04:51] <sebsebseb> well I already knew how they are probably going to have a music thing similar to Itunes in Lucid
[04:51] <sebsebseb> I read something about that  earlier, and how it will probably use the Amazon store, and how that apparantly ony works in the USA
[04:52] <sebsebseb> well if that's the case, and it ends up having this music thing and it uses the Amazon store,  which is only for USA?   well if it's only for the USA, that's not very good for a Linux distro, which is global, and rather global indeed since The Internet
[04:53]  * humphreybc is hacking on the prologue
[04:53] <humphreybc> how can we hyperlink?
[04:53] <sebsebseb> wolter: ^
[04:53] <humphreybc> godbyk?
[04:53] <godbyk> link to what?
[04:53] <humphreybc> instead of using a \url and showing the URL
[04:53] <humphreybc> how can we hyperlink?
[04:54] <humphreybc> I'm making some changes to the prologue
[04:54] <wolter> sebsebseb, amazon is not just for USA...
[04:54] <sebsebseb> no not Amazon itself
[04:54] <wolter> I can buy stuff from amazon.. What do you mean?
[04:54] <humphreybc> and I want to hyperlink to the Server Edition features list in a margin note
[04:54] <sebsebseb> ,but the music store is apparantly
[04:54] <godbyk> humphreybc: cool.. I'll have you fix the cross-references.
[04:54] <wolter> oh
[04:54] <godbyk> if you want to link to a website, use \href.
[04:54] <godbyk> \href{http://blah.com/}{Blah}
[04:54] <godbyk> (or the other way 'round.. I forget.)
[04:54] <humphreybc> I see
[04:54] <humphreybc> thanks
[04:55] <sebsebseb> wolter: so  if they end up having this Ubuntu One music store, ideally it should work in many counteries
[04:55] <godbyk> for the cross-references (such as "See chapter 10: Blah", use "See Chapter~\ref{ch:chapter-label}: \nameref{chapter-label}"
[04:55] <godbyk> that way if we rearrange chapters later or add new ones the references get updated automatically
[04:55] <sebsebseb> wolter: some counteries they can't just sell music to, because of the way that's done,  lisenseing
[04:55] <godbyk> and they're hyperlinks so you can click on the chapter number and it'll jump you there in the pdf.
[04:56] <humphreybc> what are the chapter labels tho?
[04:56] <sebsebseb> !ot | sebsebseb wolter
[04:56] <manualbot> sebsebseb wolter: Best to keep this channel mainly on topic!
[04:56] <humphreybc> give me an example
[04:56] <sebsebseb> indeed at that
[04:56] <humphreybc> use Chapter 10
[04:56] <sebsebseb> and I came up with the factoid suggestion :)
[04:56] <godbyk> humphreybc: look at the .tex file for chapter 10.. right below the \chapter command, you'll see a \label command.
[04:56] <wolter> lol sebsebseb... i'm beginning to agree on that you are a factoid master
[04:56] <godbyk> that's the label you'll use in \ref and \nameref
[04:56] <wolter> godbyk, thats just glorious
[04:57] <wolter> godbyk, i'll use that a lot
[04:57] <sebsebseb> wolter:  to some extent I guess so yeah,  altough I don't know all the manualbot  and ubottu factoids
[04:57] <godbyk> We can also make labels for sections as well, but I was too lazy for that. :-)
[04:58] <godbyk> Oh, and \pageref{ch:chapter-label} will print the page number the chapter starts on.
[04:58] <wolter> !factoids
[04:58] <manualbot> Hi! I'm #ubuntu-manual's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[04:59] <sebsebseb> wolter: well yeah and I would use !bot for that
[04:59] <sebsebseb> !bot
[04:59] <manualbot> Hi! I'm #ubuntu-manual's favorite infobot, you can search my brain yourself at http://ubottu.com/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[05:00] <wolter> godbyk, yeah.. as long as chapters aren't too long to skim through, we shouldn't need that
[05:01] <godbyk> wolter: hopefully not.
[05:05] <wolter> godbyk, I think you should prepend some whitespace to headings according to their level
[05:05] <wolter> It is still not very defined
[05:06] <godbyk> wolter: headings are still in the works.  I'll adjust the font size, spacing, etc. soon.
[05:06] <wolter> oh ok, nice work godbyk :)
[05:11] <humphreybc> godbyk I've changed them but I'm getting ?? in the PDF when I make it.  I'll push it and could you check it please?
[05:11] <godbyk> sure.
[05:11] <godbyk> the ?? usually means it doesn't find something with that label.
[05:12] <humphreybc> hmm. Well probably easiest just for you to fix one and I'll use that as an example.
[05:13]  * humphreybc pushed revision 133
[05:16] <godbyk> humphreybc: In the \nameref command, you forgot the ch: part of the label.
[05:17] <godbyk> humphreybc: also, instead of making ``this webpage.'' a hyperlink, you should include the url so that folks who have printed the manual can still go to the website.
[05:17] <humphreybc> oh true
[05:17] <humphreybc> but it'll be nice and long in the margin note tho
[05:18] <humphreybc> Did you fix them up and push or should I?
[05:18] <godbyk> it should wrap.  if it doesn't, let me know and I'll poke at it.
[05:18] <godbyk> I haven't fixed them.
[05:18] <humphreybc> righto
[05:21] <humphreybc> godbyk, perhaps the label names should be the same as the .tex file names?
[05:22] <godbyk> you can make them whatever you like (excluding special chars).
[05:22] <godbyk> I typically use the ch: prefix for chapters (sec: for section) and use an abbreviated form of the chapter title.
[05:22] <godbyk> whatever is easy to remember, basically.
[05:23] <humphreybc> hokay
[05:27] <humphreybc> who is writing chapter 10??
[05:27] <godbyk> not it!  :-)
[05:28] <wolter> I think I finished 5, for the time being..
[05:29] <wolter> We still need to go through some stuff on the TODO comment at the beginning of the source
[05:34] <humphreybc> wotler
[05:34] <humphreybc> wolter* i'll take a look tonight :)
[05:34] <humphreybc> are you happy for me to just make small changes?
[05:34] <wolter> humphreybc, good
[05:35] <wolter> humphreybc, of course.. but comment about it please :()
[05:35] <wolter> :) *
[05:35] <humphreybc> sure will
[05:35] <humphreybc> did you look at the video I made today? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMDjzqc9cIo
[05:36] <wolter> no, i'd be happy to :)
[05:36]  * wolter pauses Van Halen
[05:38] <wolter> i like your desktop humphreybc :)
[05:38] <humphreybc> so do I :P
[05:38] <humphreybc> do you think it's a good preview of Ubuntu?
[05:42] <wolter> lol you almost draw a nipple to that girls photo hahah
[05:42] <wolter> yeah/.. awesome so far
[05:42] <wolter> except for the music hahaha
[05:42] <humphreybc> lol
[05:42] <humphreybc> my laptop is much more responsive after installing preload
[05:43] <wolter> preload?
[05:44] <wolter> hm.. nice how you closed the windows with the beat
[05:44] <wolter> at 3:02
[05:45] <wolter> oh.. now I have dark background in my nautilus and autohiding panel
[05:46] <wolter> i'd like to watch your drumming, if you excuse me
[05:46] <humphreybc> sudo apt-get install preload
[05:46] <humphreybc> haha go for it that's why the videos are on youtube!
[05:47] <humphreybc> oh and rate and comment my videos :)
[05:47] <humphreybc> please :)
[05:47] <wolter> ok will do :)
[05:49] <wolter> humphreybc, NICE pop drumming vid
[05:49] <wolter> nice music
[05:49] <wolter> what is it?
[05:49] <humphreybc> it's part of this collection of drumless tracks that I downloaded last year
[05:49] <humphreybc> they're only 30 seconds long or so
[05:49] <humphreybc> just to learn how to play different styles
[05:51] <wolter> thats so nice!
[05:51] <wolter> If you could record one with your drums and make it sound very neat, I would like a copy of it
[05:51] <wolter> Sounds like a nice jazz band
[05:51] <wolter> humphreybc, is preload cli?
[05:51] <humphreybc> no no
[05:51] <humphreybc> it's a daemon
[05:52] <humphreybc> it tracks what apps you use the most and keeps the app data in a memory cache
[05:52] <humphreybc> so then they start very fast
[05:52] <humphreybc> it's good if you have excess RAM
[05:52] <humphreybc> See I've got 3GB but most of the time Ubuntu only uses about 700
[05:52] <humphreybc> 700mb
[05:53] <wolter> oh
[05:53] <wolter> so, you start preload at start?
[05:53] <wolter> startup*
[05:53] <wolter> sounds very nice
[05:53] <humphreybc> No it starts automatically and runs in the background
[05:53] <IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* anyone heard from the guy writing Chap 4 recently?
[05:53] <wolter> if you would make a cover of a muse song I would be so pleased haha
[05:53] <IlyaHaykinson> Deon Spengler?
[05:55] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: re prologue, "...clear diagrams..." -- we're going to have diagrams?
[05:56] <humphreybc> sorry laptop ran out of juice
[05:56] <IlyaHaykinson> well, quitting is one way to answer my question :)
[05:56] <humphreybc> who's on chap 4?
[05:56] <IlyaHaykinson> well, that and the one after that.
[05:56] <IlyaHaykinson> to restate:
[05:56] <IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* anyone heard from the guy writing Chap 4 recently? Deon Spengler?
[05:56] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: re prologue, "...clear diagrams..." -- we're going to have diagrams?
[05:57] <humphreybc> uh
[05:57] <humphreybc> 1) Nope I haven't head from Deon.. and 2) Probably not, I will change that, but we can see.
[05:58] <IlyaHaykinson> re Deon, hm. i emailed him, no answer for a couple of days. i'm worried a bit because chapters 1..5 are the most important ones in the manual.
[06:00] <wolter> humphreybc, you do use gnome-do?
[06:03] <humphreybc> ya...
[06:03] <humphreybc> hmm
[06:04] <humphreybc> 4 is a big one too
[06:10] <IlyaHaykinson> exactly
[06:13] <IlyaHaykinson> as are chapters 1, and 2, which also haven't had too much change recently
[06:19] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: for the title page, can we really stretch the whole image to the edges? won't they cut off when it's printed?
[06:20] <godbyk> They can get cut off (and the amount varies by printer).
[06:20] <godbyk> Once a title page has been chosen, we will probably have to tweak it to make sure that all the important bits (text) are inside common printers' margins.
[06:20] <IlyaHaykinson> actually print preview for me shows that it scales it down
[06:20] <wolter> Yeah well, the printed version could include not the cover
[06:20] <wolter> because those who want the cover printed will have the equipment to print the whole page i think
[06:20] <IlyaHaykinson> i'll have to print it out at the office tomorrow to see what happens
[06:21] <godbyk> I think my laser printer has 0.25-inch margins all around, but 0.5-inch on the bottom.
[06:21] <godbyk> My old inkjet had 0.25 left and right, 0.5 top, and 0.75 bottom.
[06:21] <IlyaHaykinson> but, weirdly, when print previewed, there's like a 3-inch margin at the bottom
[06:21] <IlyaHaykinson> can you guys try it?
[06:22] <godbyk> the test page that ubuntu prints has lines around the edge that you can use to see where your particular printer cuts things off.
[06:23] <IlyaHaykinson> actually the large bottom margin is a problem for me even in evince
[06:24] <godbyk> are you printing to A4 paper?
[06:24] <godbyk> because the paper size in the PDF is set for letter at the moment.
[06:25] <IlyaHaykinson> US Letter, though that's basically the same
[06:26] <godbyk> Well, A4 paper is taller than US letter.  So that might have explained the extra margin space on the bottom.
[06:26] <IlyaHaykinson> switched to A4, same deal
[06:26] <IlyaHaykinson> when you print-preview you don't have an abnormally large margin at the bottom?
[06:26] <godbyk> On mine, the preview is scaling the page contents a bit -- looks like it may be scaling it to fit inside my printer's margins, but I'm not sure.
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: 264 responses to the survey so far, but i want to reach closer to 1000 and include a lot more windows and mac users. i've been actively reaching out to folks i know to try to promote it to them, perhaps you can too?
[06:28] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: right now 83% of users are active Ubuntu users, which isn't our target audience.
[06:28] <humphreybc> i'll try printing
[06:28] <humphreybc> Ilya yeah I'll try again on facebook
[06:28] <humphreybc> what happened to windows man?
[06:29] <humphreybc> what's the link again?
[06:29] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: i'll try actually printing this tomorrow to see what happens.
[06:29] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i guess he didn't want to help spread it. either busy, or didn't want to do it for some reason.
[06:29] <humphreybc> ok
[06:29] <IlyaHaykinson> not having much luck -- tried reaching out to about 4 others, too, also with no effect
[06:31] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Cool.  Let me know how it goes.
[06:31] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: nod
[06:32] <humphreybc> odd, it doesn't want to print
[06:32] <humphreybc> gives me an error
[06:32] <humphreybc> i've printed stuff using my printer yesterday and it works fine
[06:32] <godbyk> Once a title page has been selected, we'll need to make sure we have a US letter-sized version and an A4-sized version.
[06:33] <humphreybc> it's printing some other stuff from evince fine
[06:33] <humphreybc> oh maybe it's the US letter thing
[06:37] <humphreybc> how do i change it to A4?
[06:37] <humphreybc> I'll try printing again
[06:38] <godbyk> humphreybc: at the moment, you have to edit ubuntu-manual.cls and comment out the \geometry line with letterpaper and uncomment the a4paper one, then recompile.
[06:39] <godbyk> note that it will stretch the letter-sized cover page to fit the A4 paper, so it'll look funky.
[06:39] <humphreybc> ah
[06:39] <humphreybc> we probably should change to A4 anyway
[06:39] <humphreybc> do you want to do that and then push?
[06:39] <godbyk> We'll we're going to have both sizes based on the language.
[06:39] <godbyk> So once we get the translation stuff going, it'll be cool.
[07:07] <wolter> oh my.. not here
[07:07] <wolter> i hope its not gnaa
[07:07] <godbyk> ?
[07:07] <wolter> gay nigger association of america
[07:07] <wolter> that really exists you kjow?
[07:07] <wolter> know*
[07:08] <godbyk> I did not.
[07:12] <wolter> sadly it does
[09:19] <humphreybc> wtf wolter?
[18:39] <shadeslayer> hi is anyone working on the Kubuntu Manual?
[18:39] <dutchie> not yet, no
[18:39] <shadeslayer> dutchie: any plans to make one?
[18:40] <dutchie> if you want to, go for it
[18:40] <dutchie> but I don't think anybody in the main team has any intention of doing one until the Ubuntu Manual is done
[18:40] <shadeslayer> dutchie: well i want to but i need somebody to help me,cant do it alone
[18:40] <shadeslayer> dutchie: why though?
[18:41] <wolter> shadeslayer, we have to narrow down as much as we can to get this done right
[18:41] <dutchie> well, we've got quite enough work to be going on with thjust the one prjject
[18:41] <wolter> then we can spread a little more
[18:42] <shadeslayer> wolter: any idea who i should talk to in order to do a kubuntu manual?
[18:42] <wolter> yes, humphreybc
[18:42] <wolter> but he is not here.
[18:43] <shadeslayer> ok ill talk to him when he gets here :)
[18:43] <wolter> Anyway, if you are thinking of something, write it down. The team will appreciate early efforts on that :)
[18:43] <shadeslayer> wolter: on the wiki?
[18:43] <wolter> shadeslayer, you could also leave him a memo through memoserv
[18:43] <wolter> shadeslayer, if you want to, or on your computer
[18:44] <wolter> shadeslayer, if you do it in the wiki be sure to make it under Blueprints/Kubuntu/
[18:44] <shadeslayer> wolter: and the specs for the manual are on the wiki.. although i couldnt find the programming language im supposed to write it on
[18:44] <shadeslayer> wolter: ah ok
[18:44] <wolter> shadeslayer, yeah, its LaTeX
[18:44] <wolter> you can read some about it in the wiki
[18:44] <shadeslayer> ok
[18:44] <wolter> shadeslayer, you already have bazaar?
[18:45] <wolter> you could pull in the actual revision of the manual and inspect some files,  then the pdf... You'll see its very easy and doesn't even require programming knowlegde
[18:45] <shadeslayer> wolter: nope
[18:45] <wolter> just common sense :)
[18:45] <wolter> shadeslayer, [$ sudo apt-get install bzr]
[18:45] <shadeslayer> wolter: i did the docs for an app recently in docbook,just learnt as i went along
[18:45] <wolter> yeah
[18:46] <shadeslayer> wolter: whats the URL ill need to pull the manual?
[18:46] <shadeslayer> (i know a bit of git and svn though)
[18:46] <wolter> shadeslayer, as simple as lp:ubuntu-manual
[18:46] <wolter> thats one of the wonders of bzr
[18:46] <wolter> and working with launchpad
[18:46] <shadeslayer> :D
[18:46] <wolter> bzr works this way
[18:47] <shadeslayer> wolter: never used bzr
[18:47] <wolter> [$ bzr pull] to get the latest revision
[18:47] <wolter> [$ bzr commit -m 'Your comment on your commit
[18:47] <wolter> to make a commit, but not upload it yet
[18:47] <wolter> [$ bzr push] to upload
[18:47] <shadeslayer> ok so its saved locally
[18:47] <wolter> yes, like svn
[18:47] <wolter> you checkout the latest, work it, and then commit
[18:47] <shadeslayer> and git too..
[18:47] <dutchie> bzr is closer to git than svn
[18:48] <shadeslayer> dutchie: yeah i can see that :)
[18:48] <shadeslayer> all the commands are the same
[18:48] <dutchie> git > bzr though IMO
[18:52] <shadeslayer> oh im sorry didnt get what dutchie said about git>bzr... got disconnected
[18:59] <wolter> how?
[18:59] <wolter> yeah thats all he said shadeslayer
[19:00] <wolter> dutchie, how?
[19:00] <shadeslayer> wolter: um why does bzr want a launchpad login?
[19:00] <dutchie> wolter: what, why is git better than bzr?
[19:00] <wolter> shadeslayer, because you need permission to push
[19:00] <shadeslayer> it just said i need to add my lp login... theyre optional
[19:00] <wolter> yes dutchie
[19:00] <shadeslayer> wolter: oh
[19:01] <dutchie> wolter: the philosphy just seems to fit in my head better. I prefer the branching system
[19:02] <wolter> dutchie, ill read about it
[19:03] <shadeslayer> how big is the download
[19:03] <dutchie> not much use for ubuntu/LP stuff, but it's I use it for all my projects
[19:04] <wolter> shadeslayer, its small
[19:04] <wolter> i don't remember how big was it, but its small
[19:04] <wolter> dutchie, what other projects are you involved in?
[19:05] <dutchie> wolter: stuff on http://github.com/jshholland/
[19:05] <thorwil> hi wolter! how do you feel about the state of affairs regarding the title page design? do you intend to invest additional effort?
[19:05] <shadeslayer> you install it via make?
[19:05] <wolter> shadeslayer, no, you make it via make
[19:06] <wolter> it only generates a pdf and other files
[19:06] <wolter> but you just need to read the pdf
[19:06] <dutchie> shadeslayer: not much point installing it
[19:06] <wolter> hey thorwil, how are you doing? I will see the screenshots page
[19:06] <shadeslayer> wolter: the PDF's land up in the folder run with make right?
[19:07] <wolter> yes
[19:08] <thorwil> wolter: i'm fine, thanks. i just think having 4 or more people add entirely independent design proposals shouldn't be continued
[19:08] <shadeslayer> gah.. Need to get 265MB of archives.
[19:09] <wolter> thorwil, did that guy really print out a titlepage?
[19:09] <wolter> That one seems nice because it is so simple and clean
[19:09] <shadeslayer> and im on a 128 kbps connection,ill probably do this after a week when im free
[19:10] <wolter> shadeslayer, with [$ bzr pull lp:ubuntu-manual] ?
[19:10] <wolter> Its not that big, as
[19:10] <dutchie> I assume that's installing latex
[19:10] <wolter> far as I know
[19:10] <wolter> yeah
[19:10] <thorwil> wolter: that's a photo manipulation
[19:10] <shadeslayer> wolter: no the packages i need to isntall
[19:10] <wolter> thorwil, a very good one :)
[19:11] <wolter> shadeslayer, oh yes.. thats big
[19:11] <wolter> you could leave it overnight or idk
[19:11] <thorwil> wolter: and not meant as proposal, see the comment on the change
[19:11] <shadeslayer> wolter: would take 3 hours to complete
[19:11] <wolter> thorwil, where?
[19:12] <thorwil> wolter: just click the Info link at the top
[19:13] <thorwil> wolter: taken from there: "Spec work and contests isn't a path forward. Stop spec work and work with one of the dedicated individuals above. It is a blight on our culture."
[19:15] <pererik87> how will the manual be distributed to the end user?
[19:15] <thorwil> wolter: his blog might add helpful context: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/, if you are willing to spend time on it
[19:15] <wolter> thorwil, what do you mean with spec work?
[19:15] <wolter> pererik87, we are still deciding on that
[19:15] <wolter> pererik87, it will most likely be displayed as a link on the desktop to the manual inside Examples folder
[19:16] <wolter> I would prefer Documents folder, but anyway
[19:16] <pererik87> ok, because i notices a blue questionmark where i thought it was going
[19:16] <wolter> But it all depends on whether we finish a nice product or not
[19:16] <wolter> thorwil, I am :)
[19:16] <wolter> let me read it
[19:18] <thorwil> wolter: i have to admit that "spec work" made me wonder, too. it stands for speculative work
[19:18] <pererik87> but i think it would be nice if the dell users or whatever got a printed version with their computer.
[19:19] <wolter> spec as in not economic?
[19:19] <wolter> or as in out of place?
[19:19] <wolter> pererik87, well, we could talk to dell later
[19:19] <wolter> but yes, that would be very nice :)
[19:20] <wolter> thorwil, apple as in apple mac?
[19:20] <thorwil> wolter: yes
[19:21] <wolter> thorwil, so you are struggling to abandon it?
[19:21] <thorwil> wolter: abandon what? i'm not struggling at all
[19:22] <wolter> oh surpassing
[19:25] <wolter> thorwil, is that like a book?
[19:25] <thorwil> wolter: no, just a series of blog posts
[19:26] <thorwil> wolter: speculative work is all work a designer does in hopes of getting a job/contract. so the designer speculates on ending up as "winner"
[19:27] <wolter> oh
[19:27] <wolter> i must admit i like your writing style
[19:32] <thorwil> wolter: not mine. pay attention, please ;)
[19:32] <wolter> were does it say its not yours?
[19:32] <wolter> oh your not troy?
[19:32] <thorwil> "wolter: his blog might add helpful context: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/"
[19:33] <thorwil> _his_ blog
[19:33] <wolter> oh
[19:33] <wolter> well, i guess sometimes I don't read as thorough
[19:33] <thorwil> wolter: np
[19:34] <thorwil> wolter: the blog author is available in ubuntu-artwork, currently, goes by troy_s
[19:34] <wolter> oh
[19:35] <thorwil> wolter: anyway, my thinking is that the title page design should be done with either just one designer, or a small team. in case of a team, it should be allowed to actually make decisions
[19:36] <wolter> yes
[19:36] <thorwil> wolter: this to avoid having people wasting their time creating proposals that go nowhere
[19:36] <wolter> thats a good point
[19:37] <thorwil> vish: following?
[19:38] <wolter> don't think so haha
[19:42] <thorwil> wolter: i wanted to discuss this with you, vish and kolorguild
[19:43] <wolter> well, kolorguild appears to never connect to chis channel, or does he ever?
[19:44] <wolter> vish is now offline, maybe you (or me) could research on their time zones and setup a time to talk about it
[19:44] <thorwil> wolter: don't know if he uses irc at all
[19:44] <pererik87> ive seen him
[19:45] <pererik87> few days ago but ive seen him in here
[19:48] <vish> re
[19:49] <wolter> oh hey vish
[19:49] <wolter> thorwil, wanted to talk about the titlepages
[19:49] <vish> yeah... /me always agrees with thorwil  :)
[19:49] <thorwil> lol
[19:50] <wolter> ok
[19:50] <wolter> so, should we here or in a sub channel?
[19:50] <vish> ah not another channel :/
[19:50] <wolter> ok
[19:51] <thorwil> just hunted for kolorguild's email adress
[19:52] <thorwil> so we 3 already agree on that there should be either a single chosen designer or a team?
[19:52] <vish> yup
[19:52] <thorwil> and that there need to be clear requirements, goals to achieve for the design?
[19:52] <wolter> team
[19:52] <wolter> yes
[19:53] <wolter> lets propose some
[19:53] <wolter> I say consistency with the ubuntu and manual style
[19:53] <wolter> Simplicity
[19:53] <wolter> or minimalism
[19:54] <thorwil> wolter: i know what you mean, but all these are a bit too generic
[19:54] <wolter> oh ok
[19:55] <vish> hmm, maybe we need to discuss in presence of humphrey as well?
[19:55] <thorwil> vish: later
[19:55] <vish> k.
[19:55] <wolter> agree with thorwil
[19:55] <wolter> humphrey is not much of an artwork contributor actually, so i don't think it is that demanding
[19:56] <vish> well didnt want to want to discuss a lot and then simply get over-ruled ;)
[19:56] <vish> eitherway WFM
[19:56] <wolter> yeah
[19:57] <wolter> so, thorwil, any suggestions?
[19:57] <thorwil> i don't want to get into much depth either. but i would start from thinking about the context of the presentation
[19:57] <thorwil> the how, when and why of a user getting to see the title page
[19:58] <thorwil> like for the whole manual, there should be an idea of the target audience (this tends to be hard nut)
[19:59] <wolter> Ok, which would you say the target audience is?
[20:00] <thorwil> next: a tone/style. possibilities could be expressed in terms of classic, academic, quirky ...
[20:01] <thorwil> wolter: i guess we can rule out geeks, long-time users and children below 12 years (13, 14, ...?)
[20:01] <vish> i think we can rule out classic... it was one of my suggestions earlier and humphrey didnt want ti
[20:02] <thorwil> vish: where are your balls and where is your pride as designer? ;)
[20:02] <wolter> hahah
[20:02]  * vish tries to find if any is left ;p
[20:02] <wolter> i think our target audience is this windows/mac user that got sick of nonsense and just installed ubuntu. Now he says "ok, how do I work this thing?"
[20:03] <pererik87> I think the audience is noobs and we always have Ubuntu Help Center as well
[20:03] <thorwil> wolter: a snippet of a scenario ... that's good
[20:04] <wolter> so we agree on the target audience (vish?)
[20:04] <pererik87> wolter has a point
[20:04] <vish> i dont think it is.. to me the manual meant/seemed more of an introduction to Ubuntu
[20:05] <wolter> but for who?
[20:05] <thorwil> wolter: so our audience is not likely to pick up the manual for sheer enjoyment, it might be seen more as a tool to get past initial hurdles?
[20:06] <wolter> thorwil, i think
[20:06] <vish> wolter: anyone who is wondering what is Ubuntu really... the problem with the manual is it blurs the distinction of being either a help or an introduction... too much
[20:06] <wolter> but it should be enjoyable too; not boring and monotonic
[20:07] <wolter> vish, well, manuals are generally for help rather than introduction
[20:07] <thorwil> wolter: yes, absolutely. we have to be careful with requirements one would set in any case, though. you _never_ want boring
[20:08] <vish> wolter: help the user from where? where is it going to be present to actually help the user?
[20:08] <vish> online? CD ?
[20:08] <vish> after install?
[20:08] <thorwil> this question about audience/scope is at the core of the whole project, so not something we can work out in isolation that easily
[20:09] <wolter> all of those
[20:09] <wolter> well, thats the idea.. that you can download it, that it will be in the live CD and hopefully remain in your documents folder after you install
[20:10] <wolter> maybe even an html version of line, but I don't agree with that much, as the internet is flooded with help files
[20:10] <wolter> but could be as well... who knows?
[20:10] <vish> wolter: if present on the install , how is it going to differ from the sys docs then?
[20:10] <pererik87> We already have Ubuntu help center and i do not see that we need two manuals on a live cd or a operating system. I say its something extra the user/salesman can print out.
[20:10] <wolter> Perhaps a big cleansing has to be done, but however, I think we are taking this a bit off limits and should focus more on the artistic part of the titlepage
[20:11] <vish> pererik87: exactly ;)
[20:11] <wolter> vish, that is in the wiki page of the manual
[20:12] <wolter> well i must say, humphrey has being asked this lots of times
[20:12] <vish> wolter: i understand the justification on the wiki  :)  .. but I'm just asking how..
[20:12] <wolter> but in the wiki you can find his explanation
[20:12] <wolter> oh ok
[20:12] <wolter> I agree though, to a certain extent, that there should be some more evident territorial definition
[20:13] <wolter> But I can tell you this, since you asked that question I opened up the help center, and it covers certain things in a very shallow way
[20:13] <wolter> Like the "Customizing your computer" part
[20:14] <pererik87> The Help center looks like its written by a paid employee that doesen't really care if you ask me
[20:14] <wolter> And I can tell you as well that every time in the past I wanted to use the help and support of ubuntu I couldn't find what I was looking for. I don't know if this was due to a poor search engine or what, but I could not
[20:14] <wolter> pererik87, looks like that, yes
[20:16] <pererik87> the layout is pure annoyance. you click a link and the nav bar dissapear
[20:16] <pererik87> but thats really irellevant
[20:16] <wolter> pererik87, i disagree on that, I think it is comfortable to navigate
[20:16] <vish> wolter: so , if in the end  , if we are trying to replace the help center... we dont really need a title page... If i'm trying to get to the help , i would rather see the contents and topics than a cover page ;)
[20:16] <wolter> but yes, thorwil and vish lets get back on track I say
[20:17] <wolter> vish, well, the coverpage is the face of our manual.. its really important
[20:17] <wolter> its all about first impressions, some say
[20:18] <vish> wolter: hmm... you dont need a cover page for the purpose we are intending :s   ... the first impression for an in-place help is the contents..
[20:18] <vish> wolter: if we are a separate online or pdf , we need a title page
[20:18] <thorwil> wolter: i'm crafting an email, also to kolorguild. your address, please
[20:19] <wolter> vish, not everybody thinks that way, some people may even limit their perception of the OS to small things like how much effort was put in the coverpage of the manual
[20:19] <thorwil> vish: now you're a level deeper than the amount of change possible in the project, i think ;)
[20:19] <pererik87> And its UHC isnt translated either
[20:20] <vish>  ;)
[20:21] <pererik87> maybe someone should contact Matthew East
[20:22] <thorwil> to achieve what?
[20:22] <wolter> who is he?
[20:23] <pererik87> the administrator of UHC
[20:38] <pererik87> last updated october 2008
[21:01] <wolter> ill be out for a l-ong time
[21:01] <wolter> leave me memos if you need
[21:13] <jpds> pererik87: UHC?
[21:13] <godbyk> jpds: Ubuntu Help Center
[21:14] <jpds> Oh, I know him primarily as the ubuntu-doc guy.
[21:14] <jpds> He tends to be fairly busy / idle on IRC.
[21:15] <pererik87> thats why he should be happy to turn over this to uss:P
[23:19] <godbyk> Hey, wolter.  Looks like I missed a fun design discussion!
[23:19] <wolter> godbyk, looks like I did haha, I had to go to lunch
[23:19] <godbyk> If anyone figures out what tone the manual should present, let me know so I can adjust the design accordingly. :-)
[23:20] <godbyk> Perhaps the discussion should be taken to the mailing list so we avoid time-zone issues?
[23:49] <pererik87> good night
[23:49] <wolter> gnight
[23:49] <godbyk> g'night, pererik87.