[00:03] <wolter> I think I got troy_s mad at me
[00:09] <godbyk> Oh? When? How?
[00:11] <wolter> Just now, I asked in the artwork channel how to change the emblem's position in an existing icon them. Next thing I know he told me to google something which didn't return relevant results, and then he just stopped talking even after I asked him something.
[00:11] <wolter> Now, I have not come here to wine or get you against him, just thought it would be funny to thorwil now that he pointed me to his blog a while ago.
[00:12] <wolter> But apparently hes not here anymore.
[00:12] <godbyk> Ah, maybe he just got distracted or something.
[00:28] <wolter> yeah, could be
[00:28] <wolter> but well, I wouldn't know
[01:02] <wolter> is there an agreement on how the headers should be capitalized
[01:03] <wolter> ?
[01:09] <godbyk> wolter: Apparently not.
[01:09] <godbyk> I noticed the other day that some are sentence-cased and others are title-cased.
[01:10] <godbyk> But we should decide on that and add a note to the style guide.
[01:12] <wolter> yes
[01:13] <wolter> I think sentence-case can be less annoying sometimes
[01:13] <wolter> But I think, as this is a book written in formal english, that all titles should be in title case
[01:14] <rachaelb> hi all! is there anything i can do to help with the manual?
[01:17] <godbyk> 'allo, rachaelb.  Are there any chapters that you're particularly interested in helping to write?  There is a to do list of sorts here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/#To%20Do%20List  (Looks like I need to scratch a couple items off that list now).
[01:17] <godbyk> There are also some 'how to contribute' notes here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/#Contributions
[01:18] <godbyk> Otherwise, in general, feel free to poke around and see how you'd like to contribute.
[01:18] <rachaelb> im just having a look now
[01:19] <rachaelb> i can remember how difficult it was at the beginning to get my head around linux lol
[01:19] <rachaelb> and the usual forum answer of "rtfm" isnt necessarily very helpful!
[01:19] <godbyk> Good -- you can help keep us in check!
[01:20] <godbyk> Sometimes it's hard to figure out what people have trouble with when they're just starting out.
[01:22] <rachaelb> sometime its hard to fiure out even when youve been using it for a few years :(
[01:24] <rachaelb> ok... well i've got some time on my hands for the next couple of months
[01:25] <godbyk> Cool.  You can also sign up for the mailing list and hang out in this IRC channel to get ideas of where to dive in.
[01:25] <rachaelb> id be quite happy to go thtough the incredibly unsexy aspects of indexing and providing a glossary if that helps
[01:25] <rachaelb> i cant imagine many people would volunteer for that!
[01:25] <godbyk> Heh.. probably not!
[01:26] <godbyk> Luckily, it's a pretty simple thing to do (well, the mechanics of it, at least).
[01:26] <rachaelb> i *turst* thats not a sexist comment :-/ lol!
[01:26] <godbyk> You just edit the .tex file, and add \index{indexme} someplace and it will automatically add an index entry and page number for indexme.
[01:27] <godbyk> I haven't set up the glossary yet; it's on my list of things to do.
[01:27] <rachaelb> ok well its pretty late here in the UK... so i'll sign up for the mailing list and be back in a few days if thats ok
[01:27] <godbyk> Sure thing!  Thanks for your help and hopefully we'll see you around.
[01:28] <rachaelb> no problem - im kinda bored with answering noob questions from friends and colleagues... a decent manual for the will be a relief!
[01:28] <wolter> godbyk, well, he was not mad haha, he just took a long rest.
[01:29] <godbyk> wolter: Ha! Well, that's good.
[01:29] <godbyk> rachaelb: I hear ya.  I have my parents, grandmother, and brother running Linux.  So if I can throw a book at them, all the better!
[01:30] <rachaelb> ok im part of the team :-D
[01:30] <rachaelb> well my mum is 81 and has been a complete convert for the last 4 years
[01:30] <godbyk> Nice!
[01:30] <rachaelb> and i read somewhere that "grandmas dont use linux".... try telling that to my mom
[01:31] <godbyk> It's certainly helped with all the 'how do I get this virus off my computer?' questions.
[01:31] <godbyk> My grandma uses it and loves it.
[01:31] <godbyk> Especially since her grandkids can't download worms from weird websites and slow down her computer.
[01:31] <rachaelb> once i set it all up for her, shes fine with it
[01:32] <rachaelb> she even understands the problems associated with the *other* o/s
[01:32] <rachaelb> and was thrilled when germany told people yesterday not to use ie cos of theproblems in china
[01:32] <rachaelb> and was telling her firends on the phone that this didnt affect her cos she used linux
[01:32] <godbyk> I think that Linux is a great solution for those who just use the Internet and email.
[01:33] <godbyk> Cheaper than OS X and more secure than Windows.
[01:33] <godbyk> My mom got a virus on her Windows netbook the other day.  But I've trained them not to pester me with Windows problems now.
[01:34] <rachaelb> prolly 4 the best
[01:34] <godbyk> If it's a Linux issue, I'll try to help.  If it's Windows, well, you're on your own!
[01:34] <godbyk> (Primarily, because I haven't used Windows in such a long time that I haven't a clue how to help anymore.)
[01:35] <rachaelb> its nice to find someone who will help... someimtes you go into an irc room with a legitimate question jsut to be told (basically) to f*** off and work it out for yoursel
[01:35] <rachaelb> thats not the way to make *nixes user friendly
[01:36] <godbyk> Definitely not.
[01:37] <godbyk> I figure the more quickly I can help someone else learn how to do something, the sooner they can start teaching the next person.  That means less work for me!  :-)
[01:38] <rachaelb> absolutely... ok ive sigend up for the referecing and glossary :-D
[01:38] <godbyk> Cool.  If you need help getting start with it, feel free to pester me sometime.
[01:39] <rachaelb> i will do - definitely
[01:39] <rachaelb> how detailed is this manual going to be?
[01:40] <godbyk> I'm not really sure.  I'm just helping out with the formatting and code bits, not writing anything myself at the moment.
[01:41] <roinator> This is probably a silly question, but is it already written?
[01:41] <godbyk> roinator: Nope, it's still being written.
[01:42] <roinator> Is there some sort of "current build"?
[01:42] <rachaelb> i mean while its fabulous to have anything as a beginners guide, unless it also covers non-ubuntu issues like installing codecs and how to use and install thrid party software then it will still not answer most noob questions
[01:42] <rachaelb> @roinator: it would appear that there is a current version - yeas
[01:42] <manualbot> rachaelb: Error: "roinator:" is not a valid command.
[01:43] <rachaelb> roinator: it would appear that there is a current version - yes
[01:43] <godbyk> roinator: I uploaded the latest PDF here for you: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf
[01:44] <roinator> Cheers...I'd like to contribute, but I am not sure if I can be of any use. I thought seeing what is currently done might be helpful.
[01:45] <godbyk> roinator: Sure!  Feel free to poke around and if you find something you'd like to help with, dive in!
[01:46] <godbyk> If you'd like to help write one of the chapters, you can find the assigned author/editor for that chapter and email him/her to discuss how you can contribute.
[01:46] <rachaelb> yikes! that needs a *lot* of work
[01:46] <godbyk> The chapter authors can be found under the appropriate blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
[01:47] <godbyk> rachaelb: Yes, it does.  The project just started 2-3 weeks ago.
[01:47] <rachaelb> that explains it then
[01:47] <rachaelb> ok its nearly 2am here
[01:48] <rachaelb> and i really, really need to get some zzzzzzz's in
[01:48] <godbyk> rachaelb: Have a good night, then!
[01:48] <rachaelb> night all.... and to quote a certain state governor... "i'll be back"
[02:00] <wolter> godbyk, how can I link to other chapters in the standard way?
[02:00] <wolter> I tried \label{ch:troubleshooting} but it didn't work
[02:00] <godbyk> wolter: Use \ref{ch:troubleshooting} or \nameref{ch:troubleshooting}
[02:01] <godbyk> \label{blah} creates the linked-to point.
[02:01] <godbyk> \ref, \pageref, and \nameref create links that take you to that \label.
[02:02] <wolter> godbyk, could you make a standard \chaplink{chapter-name}
[02:03] <wolter> so that it says for example "Chapter 9: Troubleshooting"
[02:03] <wolter> in bold or something
[02:03] <godbyk> wolter: Sure, I can do that.
[02:03] <godbyk> one sec.
[02:03] <wolter> I use those a lot, and I think other writers should as well
[02:03] <wolter> thanks :)
[02:03] <roinator> godbyk: This looks pretty damn good.  I think I'll look into this more when I have a bit more time.  At the moment I have an overwhelming number of questions regarding the project, and I think I should make an effort to answer a few on my own before I ask any here.  Thanks for the help though.
[02:04] <godbyk> roinator: No problem.  If you have more questions, feel free to ask here or on the mailing list.
[02:05] <godbyk> Your best place to look for answers is currently the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/
[02:06] <godbyk> wolter: I just pushed the \chaplink command.
[02:06] <godbyk> Using \chaplink{ch:troubleshooting} will output "Chapter 0: Troubleshooting"
[02:07] <godbyk> brb
[02:11] <godbyk> back
[02:25] <wolter> thanks godbyk :)
[03:22] <wolter> godbyk, you're amazing :)
[03:22] <godbyk> heh, thanks.
[03:24] <wolter> I didn't know pdfs supported links
[03:31] <wolter> godbyk, i will let know to the list that you made this chaplink thing, alright?
[03:32] <wolter> but also, could you make it so that you don't have to write ch: ?
[03:35] <wolter> also, I see that the link only covers the chapter number and the chapter name, but clicking the preceding "Chapter" string does nothing
[03:40] <godbyk> brb
[03:52]  * humphreybc made a new ubuntu video today :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orbi31mE3r0
[03:55] <godbyk> I'm back now.
[03:55] <godbyk> Sorry about the delay.  Was chatting with a friend who stopped by.
[04:00] <wolter> godbyk, dont worry :)
[04:23] <humphreybc> so what's new in the land of the manual?
[04:23] <wolter> humphreybc, the new version of chapter 5
[04:23] <wolter> take a look at the pull to see if you like it more
[04:23] <wolter> if not i will revert
[04:23] <humphreybc> cool
[04:24] <humphreybc> where did all the content go?
[04:24] <humphreybc> so you changed the colours of the sections/subsections?
[04:24] <wolter> to software-packaging/software-packaging-original.tex
[04:24] <wolter> i didn't
[04:24] <humphreybc> oh okay
[04:24] <humphreybc> so what's new?
[04:24] <wolter> its a complete rewrite
[04:25] <wolter> undone, of course
[04:25] <humphreybc> what was the reasoning for the rewrite?
[04:26] <wolter> well, i just read the ubuntu help center and thought that my approach was not straight enough
[04:26] <wolter> to that people that think that installing software in ubuntu is the worst part of.. ubuntu
[04:31] <godbyk> wolter: Okay, if you forget the ch: prefix on the label you pass to \chaplink, it will add it for you.
[04:32] <godbyk> Also, I've fixed it so that the entire string (including "Chapter") is a hyperlink.
[04:32] <humphreybc> wolter: fair enough, you're the author ;)
[04:32] <godbyk> I'm going to try to find a way to detect if a label exists so I can make the \chaplink command a bit smarter (i.e., not always prepend ch: if the naked label exists).
[04:32] <wolter> godbyk, can i say you're awesome again?
[04:32] <godbyk> In practice, however, please include the ch: prefix on chapter labels whenever you use them.
[04:33] <wolter> ok
[04:33] <wolter> will do then
[04:34] <nisshh> hey guys
[04:35] <godbyk> Hey, nisshh.
[04:35] <nisshh> im just getting back to writing my chapter now
[04:36] <wolter> humphreybc, how do you like my new version?
[04:36] <nisshh> but first i need to know what the hell is and isnt getting included in it
[04:36] <wolter> should I keep writing it, or continue with the other one?
[04:36] <humphreybc> nisshh: lol
[04:36] <humphreybc> fire some questions
[04:36] <nisshh> kk
[04:36] <humphreybc> wolter: looks good!
[04:37] <nisshh> what happened to some of chapter 6 being included?
[04:37] <nisshh> and is my chapter 7 now actaully chapter 8 or something?
[04:37] <nisshh> also what happened to cmd and security merging?
[04:39] <humphreybc> kk
[04:39] <humphreybc> cmd and security aren't merged anymore
[04:39] <humphreybc> your chapter 7 is still chapter 7
[04:39] <humphreybc> we decided to include updating/upgrading in the last chapter of the "first half"
[04:40] <humphreybc> instead of putting it in the advanced section
[04:40] <wolter> nisshh, wow you've been out a whole piece of time :)
[04:40] <humphreybc> haha
[04:40] <nisshh> ok good i understand more or less now
[04:40] <nisshh> wolter: yes thats what 4 holidays in a row does to you
[04:41] <wolter> oh yes i understand haha
[04:41] <wolter> it happened to me on christmas
[04:41] <wolter> and then on new year
[04:41] <nisshh> should i just go with whats currently in the ToC on the wiki
[04:42] <humphreybc> nisshh yes
[04:42] <nisshh> hehe ok
[04:42] <humphreybc> Unless you think there is anyhing to add/remove
[04:42] <nisshh> sure thing
[04:42] <humphreybc> oh and don't make it overly detailed - we are changing sort of to a Quick Start guide, so overall we need to watch page count. And the advanced stuff is least important to a new user
[04:43] <nisshh> is our irc chan working alright yet?
[04:43] <nisshh> yea ok
[04:43] <humphreybc> irc chan?
[04:43] <nisshh> yes
[04:44] <humphreybc> what do you mean?
[04:44] <nisshh> i saw the message on the mailing list about changing the channel for the meeting the other day
[04:45] <nisshh> due to problems with this one
[04:45] <humphreybc> oh right
[04:45] <humphreybc> we still dont have a logbot
[04:45] <humphreybc> but MootBot is back
[04:46] <humphreybc> They just left for some reason and never returned
[04:46] <nisshh> yep
[04:46] <wolter> humphreybc, how about ubuntulog, isn't he logging?
[04:46] <humphreybc> oh
[04:46] <humphreybc> didn't notice him! :P
[04:46] <humphreybc> roinator, for some reason youtube replies aren't working
[04:47] <humphreybc> the theme is elementary and the dock is docky :)
[04:47] <roinator> ahh ok...cool
[04:47] <nisshh> hehe
[04:47] <roinator> I didn't know you could make docky look like that.
[04:47] <humphreybc> it's not Gnome Do docky, but docky as a separate application
[04:47] <humphreybc> they're splitting them up, this is the development version
[04:47] <roinator> Ohhhhh
[04:47] <humphreybc> it's very neat
[04:48] <roinator> does it still do the gnome-do ish stuff?
[04:48] <nisshh> i think only the gnome-do version of docky does that
[04:48] <nisshh> the actual seperate version doesnt
[04:49] <nisshh> i think...
[04:49] <roinator> yeah...That would make sense, but I want a more variable appearance in gnome-do docky...so I was hoping.
[04:50] <godbyk> I documented the \chaplink command on the Style Guide.
[04:50] <nisshh> i need to read through all the new stuff on the styleguide now lol
[04:50] <nisshh> there is ALOT
[04:51] <humphreybc> roinator: It can't do the Gnome Do stuff but you can get it working with Zeitgeist and Gnome Activity Journal
[04:52] <godbyk> nisshh: Yeah, and I need to add more sometime.
[04:52] <humphreybc> And it has plugins like controlling banshee etc etc
[04:52] <godbyk> For instance, should chapter titles use title case or sentence case?
[04:52] <godbyk> How about sections and subheadings?
[04:53] <nisshh> title case i reckon
[04:55] <wolter> all kinds of headings should follow the same style in my opinion
[04:56] <nisshh> wolter: good point
[04:57] <wolter> that being title case :
[04:57] <wolter> )
[04:57] <wolter> as it is formal english the language we are writing in
[05:02] <humphreybc> I don't see a reason why we need to capitalize every word in headings
[05:03] <godbyk> I'm okay with it either way, but we should settle on one and be consistent.
[05:03] <godbyk> I think that sentence case is easier to read a bit more informal than title case.
[05:07] <godbyk> humphreybc: There was another discussion that took place earlier about establishing the tone of the manual.  How formal/informal should it be?  What kind of voice do we want to use?  Should it be staid and serious? Light and fun?  Quirky?
[05:13] <humphreybc> Somewhere in between?
[05:13] <humphreybc> We don't want to come across as Microsoft, boring and serious. But we don't want to come across as amateur. It needs to hold a "conversation" with the reader, and make them feel comfortable with what they're doing.
[05:13] <humphreybc> I think the tone that I set in the Prologue and Chapter 1 is fairly good
[05:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> ooh.
[05:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-Manual-Needs-You-Help-132478.shtml
[05:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> this really helped the survey
[05:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> we're at 674 responses
[05:23] <godbyk> cool
[05:24] <godbyk> Did we get more Windows/Mac users this time?
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> getting there
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> 42% windows so far
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> 40% ubuntu
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> need more mac users, grr.
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> i already tried asking in #macosx and ##windows
[05:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> several times, in fact
[05:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> and asked my pal who works at Apple to spread the link
[05:27] <godbyk> Have any of you read any of Kathy Sierra's blog entries or essays?
[05:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> i wonder if i can download the raw data and do my own segmentation analysis, so i can see specifically mac vs windows vs linux users' perspectives
[05:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: no; link pls?
[05:28] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: It'd be good to have the full dataset instead of just aggregate data.  Then we could do more in-depth analyses.
[05:29] <godbyk> http://headrush.typepad.com/
[05:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> btw, holding steady at about a third wanting the ability to print out the manual
[05:29] <godbyk> A lot of what she says applies to our manual.
[05:30] <godbyk> We could also publish the book via Lulu (free to publish), and people could order a printed and bound copy of it, if they didn't want to print their own.
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> yes, we could, and definitely think we should.
[05:32] <godbyk> I see no reason why we shouldn't.
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> though at this point i think there is a risk we will not hit the deadline.
[05:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> there are a lot of early chapters with little progress
[05:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> but, thanks to you, the manual is starting to -look- professional :)
[05:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> re that blog, yeah, interesting. though i feel that a lot of her advice is pretty general
[05:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> not that it's necessarily self-evident, but that it's ... just good common sense. and not specific knowledge.
[05:36] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: A lot of it is, yeah.
[05:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> please digg: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Manual_Needs_Your_Help
[05:37] <godbyk> dugg
[05:50] <IlyaHaykinson_> i can't believe how many people read the news.softpedia.com page
[05:51] <IlyaHaykinson_> the link is more than half way down the page, under a Linux heading.
[05:51] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah. it's got a pretty high alexa rank
[05:57] <wolter> hm.. who is motang and why does he sound familiar?
[06:05] <nisshh> ill be gone for an hour or two, if anyone needs me just email me instead
[06:05] <wolter> it will be hard to live with docky and gnome-do as different apps
[06:06] <wolter> or memoserv
[06:06] <wolter> :)
[06:06] <wolter> nobody uses that, but me
[06:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: email works just as well, imho :)
[06:09] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, yeah well, in my opinion i have enough emails with the ubuntu list :)
[06:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> heh.
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, survey still ticking up. seems like we're at ~12 responses per hour.
[06:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> which isn't bad. it means that if it lasts (and it won't, of course), we'd be at 1000 responses within a day.
[06:22] <IlyaHaykinson_> Ha! someone wants our manual to describe "applications towards the creation of giant space dinosaur robots" :-)
[06:22] <IlyaHaykinson_> we better get right on it
[06:32] <pererik87> most of them dont know about UHC
[07:10] <wolter> pererik87, you still here?
[07:12] <humphreybc> hehehe did you guys see the new artwork updates?
[07:12] <wolter> humphreybc, of the coverpage?
[07:12] <humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork
[07:13] <wolter> well you've been off for a long while I say
[07:15] <wolter> i have now
[07:15] <wolter> this kolorguild guy keeps working on new and new and new and new proposals
[07:15] <humphreybc> um regarding Lulu: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1378816&page=3
[07:15] <humphreybc> post $24
[07:15] <humphreybc> #24 *
[07:16] <humphreybc> I know nothing about it
[07:16] <wolter> oh i irc-know that guy
[07:16] <wolter> lol
[07:16] <wolter> hes always in the #unity-coders channel i told you about
[07:17] <humphreybc> right
[07:19] <humphreybc> lol @ "We just made RTFM a whole lot better"
[07:20] <wolter> yeah
[07:20] <humphreybc> what do you guys think about KolorGuild's new proposals?
[07:20] <wolter> excellent photo manip
[07:20] <wolter> I think they're a bit off the style we want
[07:21] <humphreybc> true
[07:21] <humphreybc> but they're different, and interesting.
[07:21] <humphreybc> new ideas are good :)
[07:21] <wolter> well yes, thats true
[07:21] <humphreybc> it's going to be soo damn hard to choose one
[07:21] <wolter> but I think they're too cluttered up
[07:21] <wolter> yes, indeed
[07:22] <wolter> but I think everybody is going for vish's with my lynx :)
[07:22]  * humphreybc is reading the questionnaire thread and the latest responses. I'm very pleased that most of what is being suggested is already being planned for the manual :)
[07:22] <humphreybc> yup
[07:22] <wolter> kolorguild has good ideas, but I think he needs to comply a little more with the style
[07:22] <humphreybc> I think vish's could use some more work though
[07:22] <humphreybc> your lynx is fantastic though wotler
[07:22] <humphreybc> wolter*
[07:22] <wolter> thanks :)
[07:22] <humphreybc> it's too bad we can't get everyone together in a room to brainstorm
[07:22] <wolter> oh, don't you use tab completion for nickks?
[07:23] <wolter> yeah well, with the meeting's new time setting i think we could talk about it in a meeting
[07:23] <humphreybc> oh for christ sake I didn't realise pidgin supported it till now.
[07:23] <humphreybc> indeed
[07:23] <wolter> humphreybc, don't you think one meeting a week is very little?
[07:23] <wolter> supported what?
[07:23] <humphreybc> tab completion
[07:23] <humphreybc> too little?
[07:23] <wolter> oh haha
[07:23] <humphreybc> you mean we should have meetings more often!?
[07:23] <wolter> yeah, not often enough i mean
[07:23] <wolter> hahaha
[07:24] <wolter> well maybe twice a weak
[07:24] <humphreybc> !!
[07:24] <wolter> i mean, this thing is going fast
[07:24] <humphreybc> true
[07:24] <wolter> but its just an idea
[07:24] <humphreybc> but most things we decide on in IRC
[07:24] <wolter> what are your comments on it?
[07:24] <humphreybc> our team communication is amazing
[07:24] <humphreybc> there are always active discussions in IRC, the mailing list is always busy, the wiki is always being changed etc and we have proper meetings once a week. I think we talk more than any other project
[07:25] <wolter> I like this team a lot you know
[07:25] <humphreybc> haha so do I
[07:25] <humphreybc> our team is awesome
[07:25] <wolter> Nobody is like that typical linux-consumed dude that tries to make everyone else look like a fool
[07:25] <humphreybc> ?
[07:26] <wolter> haha, i guess you haven't been in many irc channels
[07:26] <humphreybc> not really
[07:26] <wolter> if you go to #linux or #c channel, you'll find plenty of those
[07:26] <wolter> sometimes you trigger they're anger without knowing
[07:26] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: you missed it when i said it earlier, but the survey's picked up thanks to a news.softpedia.com mention and some diggs
[07:26] <wolter> just saying the wrong words will do
[07:26] <wolter> lol.. "some"
[07:26] <wolter> like 400!
[07:26] <IlyaHaykinson_> currently at 717 responses
[07:27] <humphreybc> yep Ilya don't worry I scroll up and read what's been said :)
[07:27] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah, nice
[07:27] <humphreybc> that's amazing, how are the stats looking?
[07:27] <humphreybc> any interesting trends that we haven't accounted for?
[07:27] <IlyaHaykinson_> good. short summary: need to cover software installation really well; printing; wireless and other networking
[07:27] <wolter> oh humphreybc, the graphics you showed in your video are based off the forum thread right?
[07:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> open office for the apps
[07:28] <humphreybc> wolter: yeah it was the only usage example of spreadsheet i had lying around
[07:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> as soon as we hit a thousand i'll prepare a good summary
[07:28] <wolter> Lol, I don't know what people don't understand about openoffice
[07:28] <humphreybc> fantastic work Ilya, truly well done. :)
[07:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> and post that, as well as the raw data and the site's own summary data
[07:28] <IlyaHaykinson_> interestingly there's little correlation so far between which OS people use and what they want to see in the manual
[07:29] <humphreybc> Well wolter I think it's more that OpenOffice is rather a large app with many settings, and it has three or more programs
[07:29] <humphreybc> awesome
[07:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> except some thigns. like Windows people who've never used Ubuntu don't place a lot of value on covering printing
[07:29] <humphreybc> hmm that is interesting
[07:29] <wolter> well, it has like 5
[07:29] <IlyaHaykinson_> but people who have used it rate printing pretty high (meaning they had trouble)
[07:29] <humphreybc> indeed
[07:29] <humphreybc> crap
[07:29] <humphreybc> what are we doing about Ch 4?
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think chapters 1, 2, and 4 are in trouble right now.
[07:30] <humphreybc> chapter 1?
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> that's installation, right?
[07:30] <humphreybc> yea
[07:30] <humphreybc> that's my chapter
[07:30] <humphreybc> alright maybe it's time I sent a motivational email to the ml
[07:30] <IlyaHaykinson_> yup. you need to make some progress on it :-)
[07:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> at the same time, i think that's an easier one
[07:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> mainly because the ubuntu folks have done an excellent job making a guided installation wizard that takes care of a lot of problems.
[07:31] <humphreybc> true
[07:31] <IlyaHaykinson_> mainly i think you need to a) pretend that you're a windows user, with a.1) a live CD in hand, a.2) a link to ubuntu.com and a blank CD-R disk
[07:32] <wolter> I could help on installation chapter
[07:32] <wolter> humphreybc, would you say I should rather continue my old chap5 or develop the new one?
[07:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> b) walk them through the live cd process, and then theinstallation
[07:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> step by step (screen by screen)
[07:32] <humphreybc> wolter perhaps help on chapter 4
[07:32] <humphreybc> yup
[07:32] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: i think you have made some great progress on chap 5...
[07:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> but i think it will need a lot more content still...
[07:33] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, with the new version of it?
[07:33] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, yes, indeed
[07:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> yeah, i think the new version is a step in the right direction
[07:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> but you need to get in depth on installing software using the software center, and make that your focus
[07:33] <IlyaHaykinson_> there are a lot of people in the survey talking about software installation
[07:34] <IlyaHaykinson_> i don't know if it's the majority or not -- it was in the fill-in response, so it's hard to quantify -- but packages and software center etc were frequent mentions
[07:34] <IlyaHaykinson_> i recommend actually walking the user through the application, pretty much screen by screen, button-click by button-click
[07:35] <wolter> i think its the majority
[07:35] <wolter> at least thats all i read when I look at the thread
[07:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: chapter 4 is a big, big deal. i think you need to split it up between more like 4 people and have them start making serious progress.
[07:35] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: i mean the questionpro.com survey, with 700 responses
[07:35] <wolter> I don't know if we should provide a "In this chapter you will learn: <bullets>" in some chapters
[07:36] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, oh
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: no need to have the bullets, in my opinion. they will have that with the table of contents, if they need it.
[07:36] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, goood point :)
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: and people do a good job of scanning the headings even when looking at the chapter itself, anyway. people are good scrollers these days :)
[07:37] <IlyaHaykinson_> in general, and i don't mean to sound as alarmist as i might come off, i think we're not on track right now. we're 20 days from our alpha deadline when we're supposed to have most content written.
[07:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> i know that i've got my work cut out for me with chap3, and i -think- i'll finish or get close. but we need to be making close to a page a day progress on chapters 2 and 4 as well, for sure.
[07:38] <godbyk> When I published a book through lulu.com, I didn't put an ISBN on it, so I didn't encounter problems there.
[07:40] <godbyk> (Just catching up on the backlog of chatter here. :-))
[07:40] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson, I agree. I'll finish off chapter 1 and start on chapter 4.
[07:40] <humphreybc> I'll need some help thoguh
[07:40] <godbyk> Do we want our screenshots to have captions?
[07:40] <humphreybc> yea
[07:40] <humphreybc> i think so
[07:40] <godbyk> (I'm going to make a \TODOscreenshot command or similar.)
[07:41] <humphreybc> we can steal stuff from the doc team wiki for chapter 4
[07:42] <humphreybc> do you guys think we should split chapter 4 up into two chapters?
[07:42] <godbyk> What license is the manual under?  (So I can toss together a copyright page.)
[07:43] <godbyk> I'm not sure what Preferences refers to, but it doesn't seem related to hardware.
[07:43] <humphreybc> Creative Commons Share Alike
[07:43] <godbyk> Some of the chapter titles are a little odd, too.
[07:43] <humphreybc> how do I do an internal chapter link now?
[07:43] <humphreybc> meh the chapter titles can be fine tuned later
[07:43] <godbyk> humphreybc: You can say \chaplink{ch:blah} and it'll print "Chapter 0: Blah"
[07:44] <humphreybc> and does that link to that chapter?
[07:44] <godbyk> Yeppers.
[07:44] <godbyk> It's magic -- it does everything! :-)
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> re chapter 4... i think we can keep it as one chapter for now, since a lot of hardware and preferences go hand in hand.
[07:45] <humphreybc> so I go "\chaplink{ch:learning-more} ?
[07:45] <godbyk> Exactly.
[07:45] <humphreybc> sweetbix
[07:45]  * humphreybc hacks on chapter 1
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> but i suggest reorganizing the chapter a bit... i guess we can do that once we figure out who'll be writing it.
[07:45] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i suggest you don't touch chap4... between chap1 and other work on your plate, i think you've got your hands full.
[07:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> for now at least.
[07:46] <wolter> haha, godbyk could you make a fun-fact notecallout type of thing?
[07:46] <wolter> if you all agree, of course
[07:46] <godbyk> wolter: What kind of fun facts do you have?
[07:46] <humphreybc> hmm yeah Ilya that is probably wise advice. Who are we going to get to write chapter 4?
[07:46] <wolter> like "fun-fact: Deb packages are inherited from Debian: Ubuntu's father Linux distribution"
[07:47] <godbyk> At the moment, chapter 4 sounds like a catch-all.
[07:47] <wolter> well, maybe its not that important
[07:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, let's see how people respond to your email... if there's no constructive response within 24 hrs, i would put out a call for N people to help with it.
[07:47] <humphreybc> we can utilize the existing wiki docs for chapter 4
[07:47] <godbyk> wolter: I'd just mention it in a parenthetical comment, probably.
[07:47] <IlyaHaykinson_> some of the docs are OK. but i'm finding that a lot of the docs are not really all that helpful.
[07:47] <humphreybc> we aren't using much of their content thus far
[07:47] <humphreybc> true
[07:48] <IlyaHaykinson_> the networking docs were kind of like "1. open this screen (detailed explanation which screen). 2. enter the correct settings. 3. click OK"
[07:48] <IlyaHaykinson_> and a user would be like "wtf" to #2
[07:48] <humphreybc> true
[07:49] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, the updated make file doesn't seem to notice changes
[07:50] <godbyk> I haven't looked at much of the text of the manual so far, so this may be what's planned/done.. but it's probably handy to have a "How do I...?" type thing.. more task-oriented instead of application-oriented.
[07:50] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: for the applications, it's exactly that way
[07:50] <IlyaHaykinson_> see the suggested order of the chapter at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/DefaultApps
[07:51] <humphreybc> how's image insertion going
[07:51] <humphreybc> ?
[07:51] <humphreybc> do we have support for that yet?
[07:51] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: cool
[07:51] <godbyk> humphreybc: What images do you want to put in?
[07:52] <humphreybc> see chapter 1
[07:52] <humphreybc> just as a test image
[07:52] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: re: Makefile, yeah, it's not keyed to notice chapter changes atm.  I need to fix that.
[07:52] <godbyk> In fact, I'll do that now.
[07:52] <humphreybc> okay guys, tell me some cons of the LiveCD
[07:53] <godbyk> humphreybc: Short answer, is yeah, you can put in images.. Just do a \includegraphics[width=\linewidth]{blah.png}
[07:53] <humphreybc> for the "couple of things to keep in mind, however" part of that section
[07:53] <godbyk> longer answer depends on what exactly you want. :-)
[07:53] <godbyk> humphreybc: It's slow?
[07:53] <humphreybc> right
[07:53] <humphreybc> i've mentioned that
[07:53] <humphreybc> else?
[07:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> we need to do the same section planning to chap2, 4, and to some degree 5 (wolter, the new version still jumps around between the advanced (locks, apt, etc) and the core gui stuff with software center)
[07:54] <humphreybc> yeah 4 is all over the place
[07:54] <humphreybc> Ilya do you want to help with that
[07:54] <humphreybc> ?
[07:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i would say the main disadvantage is that you can't save changes, and thus can't test with all the latest updates or with non-default drivers
[07:55]  * humphreybc is downloading the lucid alpha 2 in test drive so he can install it
[07:55] <humphreybc> okay, now, disadvantages of using Wubi?
[07:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: i will try to take a crack at the outline tomorrow.
[07:55]  * IlyaHaykinson_ never used Wubi...
[07:56] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, so you say I should avoid talking about apt and those things?
[07:57] <wolter> the subsection says its an insight, but I could get rid of it. However, i think the new users *have* to know, even if just a little, about what happens under the hod
[07:57] <wolter> hood*
[07:57] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter: I wouldn't mention it at all. novices don't -need- to know, they just know that they hit the install button in the software center and there's a progress bar and the thing installs :)
[07:58] <wolter> IlyaHaykinson_, hm.. ok
[07:58] <wolter> I will ommit then :)
[07:58] <godbyk> Okay, I've updated (and pushed) the Makefile, so that if you edit a chapter, it will regen the pdf.
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> maybe as a \advanced{}, during the discussion of Synaptic (which should itself be short, in my opinion, since novice users shouldn't need it very often), you can have a quick mention that there are other tools to install thigns like aptitude and apt, or something.
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: thank you.
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> quick question
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> what's the italics command?
[07:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> i thought it was \textem... but clearly i'm wrong
[07:58] <wolter> \textit{}
[07:59] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah. thank wolter
[07:59] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: What are you using italics for?
[07:59] <godbyk> If it's for emphasis, use \emph{blah}.
[07:59] <wolter> so, what is the agreement on the heading format? sentence cased or title cased?
[07:59] <humphreybc> Test Drive lets you install Ubuntu right? It doesn't do it for you?
[07:59] <wolter> Test Drive?
[07:59] <humphreybc> Test Drive, it's a development project to make testing ubuntu versions easier
[08:00] <humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/testdrive
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> ah, that's why i was thinking "em", it's the \emph.
[08:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> if \emph is for italics, is there an equivalent "meaningful" command for bolding?
[08:00] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Nope, because bold should almost never be used.
[08:01] <wolter> brb
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> gotcha. except in our manual, with menu and appplication names etc
[08:01] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, but we have our own commands for formatting those.
[08:01] <godbyk> Authors should (probably) never have to use \textbf.
[08:01] <IlyaHaykinson_> i know \application... is there one for menu options?
[08:01] <godbyk> Yep
[08:01] <humphreybc> wait
[08:02] <humphreybc> fill me in on these new commands?
[08:02] <humphreybc> why no \textbf?
[08:02] <godbyk> Er, maybe there isn't yet. Let me look
[08:02] <godbyk> So far I've made \button, \tab, \dropdown (for combo boxes I think), \nav for menus..
[08:02] <godbyk> What am I missing?
[08:03] <wolter> b
[08:03] <godbyk> (And the formatting for those may change, right now most of them are just equivalent to \textbf.)
[08:03] <wolter> godbyk, thats excellent work
[08:03] <godbyk> humphreybc: Because if we want to change the formatting of all buttons, for instance, we can.
[08:03] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: perfect. i think you also need one for a text field
[08:03] <wolter> godbyk, labels
[08:03] <wolter> godbyk, and terms
[08:03] <wolter> like, terms to define
[08:04] <humphreybc> wait where are we using buttons?
[08:04] <humphreybc> and drop down menus?
[08:04] <humphreybc> this is a PDF right?
[08:04] <godbyk> wolter: For terms, I think we'll incorporate it into a glossary, so I'll do something fancy there (codewise).
[08:04] <godbyk> humphreybc: Just to format the *names* of buttons.
[08:04] <wolter> godbyk, ok, but how should i emphasize new terms?
[08:04] <godbyk> Like: Click the \button{OK} button.
[08:05] <godbyk> wolter: For now, use \textit and I can fix it when I've written a new command.
[08:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> wolter is right. i need to mention things like DHCP
[08:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> and right now i say \textbf{DHCP}
[08:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> but would be nice to say \term{DHCP}
[08:05] <wolter> yeah :)
[08:05] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Yeah, I'll write a command to handle all that stuff.
[08:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> also... let's have a \menuoption{}
[08:06] <humphreybc> all of this stuff needs to be documented somewhere and the authors need to be told
[08:06] <godbyk> The glossary stuff is a bit funky 'cause there was recently a new package written for that, but it's not in the TeXLive 2007 distribution (which is what you have installed in the Ubuntu repositories).
[08:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: another one: \checkbox
[08:06] <godbyk> humphreybc: I'm working on a style-guide.pdf so it's not barfed all over the wiki (and because it allows for better formatting).
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> does one need to escape ampersands?
[08:07] <godbyk> yes.
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> \&?
[08:07] <godbyk>  Use \&
[08:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> thx
[08:07] <humphreybc> awesome
[08:08] <godbyk> Btw, I assume most authors are non-American?  But we're writing using American-style English, right?
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: this is in line with the ubuntu docs guidelines.
[08:09] <godbyk> That's cool.  I was just wondering for style-guide purposes.
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: another one should imho be \windowtitle{blah} which by default formats as ``blah''
[08:09] <humphreybc> are we using \button just for keyboard keys or for on screen buttons as well that are clicked?
[08:09] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: \button is for on-screen button controls
[08:10] <godbyk> There are some details that non-Americans may be unaware of, that I can mention.  (Like punctuation and quotation marks.)
[08:10] <humphreybc> what are keys?
[08:10] <humphreybc> \key?
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> dunno if we have one. \userinput?
[08:10] <godbyk> There's a keystroke package we can use that makes them look like keys..
[08:10] <IlyaHaykinson_> oh goodness. i think that would look horrible.
[08:10] <humphreybc> yea
[08:11] <humphreybc> that's not really necessary
[08:11] <godbyk> http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/keystroke/key-test.pdf
[08:11] <humphreybc> can you make a command for \keystroke or something so I can use that
[08:11] <godbyk> Yep
[08:11] <humphreybc> cool is it going to be called \keystroke?
[08:12]  * humphreybc finds himself having to use more than one workspace for the first time ever
[08:12] <wolter> whats the floating text block for defining terms?
[08:12] <godbyk> Just use the \notecallout[Definition]{Blah blah blah...} command for now.
[08:13] <godbyk> I still have to play with some things to get the glossary and term definition stuff working.
[08:13] <godbyk> humphreybc: \keystroke is good for key presses, yeah.  Like "Press \keystroke{Enter}."
[08:13] <humphreybc> neat
[08:14] <humphreybc> drop down boxes are?
[08:14] <godbyk> \dropdown
[08:14] <humphreybc> ok
[08:14] <wolter> godbyk, also a \section{} thing
[08:14] <wolter> to link to sections inside chapters
[08:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok. i think i'm done for the night.
[08:14] <wolter> or mention
[08:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> just pushed more wireless connection stuff... i think it's time to move on to firefox
[08:15] <wolter> maybe \seclink
[08:15] <godbyk> wolter: k
[08:16] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: in the makefile, can it be chaptername/*.tex as dependencies?
[08:17] <IlyaHaykinson_> for long chapters we're breaking them out as separate files per section, which means that the chapter file itself is like 5 lines long
[08:18] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: Sure.
[08:18] <humphreybc> radio buttons?
[08:19] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, l8r folks.
[08:20] <godbyk> humphreybc: Oh, sure, after I just pushed! :-)
[08:21] <godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, \radiobutton is there now, too.
[08:22] <godbyk> And with that, I'm gonna go to bed.
[08:22] <godbyk> If you have more stuff you want me to add, just note it here or email me at <godbyk@gmail.com>
[08:23] <humphreybc> Do you think it's a good idea to include the "specify manual partions" or should I just say that's for advanced users only?
[08:23] <godbyk> humphreybc: I'd include it.
[08:23] <humphreybc> the two options "Install Ubuntu side by side and choose at each startup" or "Erase entire disk" should be satisfactory for most?
[08:23] <godbyk> Especially for Windows users who want to run Windows and Linux side-by-side.
[08:24] <humphreybc> but won't the option automatically do that for em?
[08:24] <godbyk> humphreybc: Hmm.. Maybe.  I don't know how well the auto side-by-side option works, I guess.  That didn't exist when I started.
[08:24] <godbyk> The manual option is good if they don't want to give up as much (or as little) space as the auto option would choose.
[08:46] <humphreybc> godbyk, I just pushed it through but I think I broke it. Could you have a look?
[08:54] <wolter> godbyk, how do i link to a section?
[09:02] <humphreybc> oh wait godbyk has gone to bed
[09:04] <humphreybc> crap the whole thing is fairly broke
[09:05] <wolter> lol
[09:05] <wolter> what did you break?
[09:05] <wolter> i haven't downloaded your push
[09:08] <humphreybc> wolter, is there a subsubsubsection?
[09:09] <wolter> I think there is
[09:09] <wolter> but thats the lowest level
[09:09] <wolter> there is, but has no format
[09:09] <wolter> it looks like normal text, just checked.
[09:09] <humphreybc> dw fixed it
[09:09] <humphreybc> i'll push again in a sec
[09:12] <humphreybc> wow whoever has been working on chap 3 is doing awesome
[09:16] <humphreybc> tell me what you think about the work i've done on the installation chapter
[09:16] <humphreybc> dammit do you know how to separate things into a new line?
[09:16] <wolter> sorry, i was busy
[09:17] <wolter> what do you mean with that?
[09:18] <wolter> wow, thats a big chapter
[09:18] <wolter> and IlyaHaykinson is doing it as far as I know
[09:18] <wolter> Now, whoever is working on chap5 is making tremendous work too :)
[09:19] <humphreybc> haha
[09:19] <humphreybc> i mean like a line gap
[09:21] <humphreybc> for giving instructions
[09:21] <humphreybc> but when you don't want to use bullet points
[09:21] <humphreybc> or lists
[09:23] <wolter> Still don't understand very well
[09:23] <wolter> like a horizontal line?
[09:28] <humphreybc> kinda
[09:28] <humphreybc> just like typing something, then pressing enter twice
[09:28] <humphreybc> to insert a blank line to break things up
[09:31] <wolter> oh
[09:31] <wolter> i think it was \blank
[09:32] <wolter> I think that the author of command-line is not very fit to writing about it
[09:32] <wolter> anyway, bye humphreybc, I have too sleepp
[09:32] <wolter> jam session tomorrow with some friends :)
[09:32] <wolter> we're going to play "horse with no name - america", presumably
[09:34] <humphreybc> haha that's easy!
[09:38] <humphreybc> just pushed
[09:38] <humphreybc> you should pull and see the changes
[09:55] <humphreybc> Wolter did you try linking to a section?
[09:56] <humphreybc> Because something is broken now and it says on Page 17 which is your chapter :)
[10:23]  * humphreybc emailed some feedback from Martin Owens to the team
[10:38] <pererik87> was he the UHC guy
[10:38] <pererik87> ?
[17:35] <IlyaHaykinson> nice, the survey has 1036 respondents
[17:40] <p3t3r> one question:
[17:40] <p3t3r> Do we have to finish to translate this part of the manual before 11-02-10 or by this date?
[17:41] <dutchie> no, not by any means
[17:42] <dutchie> translate as much as you can, but at the moment, there are no hard translation deadlines
[17:46] <p3t3r> thanks :)
[17:46]  * dutchie goes for a shower
[17:55] <wolter> hey people
[19:26] <wolter> so, no activity?
[19:27] <dutchie> everyone's busy writing, not chatting
[19:27] <dutchie> ;)
[19:27] <wolter> haha
[19:28] <wolter> one can almost here the clacking of the keyboards
[19:31] <wolter> or not
[19:48] <humphreybc> lol
[19:49] <humphreybc> See the doc team might be moving to Mallard for Lucid
[19:49] <wolter> ah, thought so
[19:49] <humphreybc> They were concerned about the amount of comments on the Manual blog posts etc that suggested users didn't know anything about in built help
[19:49] <humphreybc> so they're trying to improve it drastically :)
[19:50] <humphreybc> Even if we haven't added anything to Ubuntu via the manual, we've still inadvertently managed to overhaul the docs :P
[19:50] <wolter> haha
[19:50] <humphreybc> b1ackcr0w, you need to seriously start working on your chapter :)
[19:50] <wolter> we will humphreybc... trust me
[19:50] <humphreybc> righto wolter, good thing I can count on you! xP
[19:57] <wolter> sure humphreybc
[20:02] <wolter> so humphreybc, will there be any documentation in building packages from source?
[20:02] <wolter> I think i have asked this already
[20:02] <wolter> but just want to re-check
[20:02] <dutchie> i'd say NO NO NO NO NO NO
[20:03] <wolter> ok
[20:03] <wolter> but i think it is worth to mention that building is *one* of the many methods in which one can get software in ubuntu
[20:03] <wolter> or not
[20:04] <dutchie> it's really not something we should advocate
[20:04] <dutchie> people's first port of call should be the software centre, not some random website offering tarballs
[20:08] <wolter> ok
[20:42] <b1ackcr0w> humphreybc: understood
[21:16] <humphreybc> wolter, no no
[21:16] <humphreybc> no building from source :)
[21:16] <humphreybc> software center software center software center
[21:17] <humphreybc> there are THOUSANDS of applications available there and i'm SURE someone can find what they're after
[21:24] <pererik87> SC SC SC SC SC
[21:35] <humphreybc> exactly
[22:21] <godbyk> Back home.  Stupid ice storms.  Ice sucks.
[22:22] <godbyk> At least I didn't fall on my butt this time.
[23:46] <pererik87> sudo apt-get install package1 package2 package3 --assume-yes    /did not know i could do that. Installing new programs after reinstalling is going to go alot faster next time