[00:03] I think I got troy_s mad at me [00:09] Oh? When? How? [00:11] Just now, I asked in the artwork channel how to change the emblem's position in an existing icon them. Next thing I know he told me to google something which didn't return relevant results, and then he just stopped talking even after I asked him something. [00:11] Now, I have not come here to wine or get you against him, just thought it would be funny to thorwil now that he pointed me to his blog a while ago. [00:12] But apparently hes not here anymore. [00:12] Ah, maybe he just got distracted or something. === wolter is now known as wolter-afk === wolter-afk is now known as wolter [00:28] yeah, could be [00:28] but well, I wouldn't know [01:02] is there an agreement on how the headers should be capitalized [01:03] ? [01:09] wolter: Apparently not. [01:09] I noticed the other day that some are sentence-cased and others are title-cased. [01:10] But we should decide on that and add a note to the style guide. [01:12] yes [01:13] I think sentence-case can be less annoying sometimes [01:13] But I think, as this is a book written in formal english, that all titles should be in title case [01:14] hi all! is there anything i can do to help with the manual? [01:17] 'allo, rachaelb. Are there any chapters that you're particularly interested in helping to write? There is a to do list of sorts here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/#To%20Do%20List (Looks like I need to scratch a couple items off that list now). [01:17] There are also some 'how to contribute' notes here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/#Contributions [01:18] Otherwise, in general, feel free to poke around and see how you'd like to contribute. [01:18] im just having a look now [01:19] i can remember how difficult it was at the beginning to get my head around linux lol [01:19] and the usual forum answer of "rtfm" isnt necessarily very helpful! [01:19] Good -- you can help keep us in check! [01:20] Sometimes it's hard to figure out what people have trouble with when they're just starting out. [01:22] sometime its hard to fiure out even when youve been using it for a few years :( [01:24] ok... well i've got some time on my hands for the next couple of months [01:25] Cool. You can also sign up for the mailing list and hang out in this IRC channel to get ideas of where to dive in. [01:25] id be quite happy to go thtough the incredibly unsexy aspects of indexing and providing a glossary if that helps [01:25] i cant imagine many people would volunteer for that! [01:25] Heh.. probably not! [01:26] Luckily, it's a pretty simple thing to do (well, the mechanics of it, at least). [01:26] i *turst* thats not a sexist comment :-/ lol! [01:26] You just edit the .tex file, and add \index{indexme} someplace and it will automatically add an index entry and page number for indexme. [01:27] I haven't set up the glossary yet; it's on my list of things to do. [01:27] ok well its pretty late here in the UK... so i'll sign up for the mailing list and be back in a few days if thats ok [01:27] Sure thing! Thanks for your help and hopefully we'll see you around. [01:28] no problem - im kinda bored with answering noob questions from friends and colleagues... a decent manual for the will be a relief! [01:28] godbyk, well, he was not mad haha, he just took a long rest. [01:29] wolter: Ha! Well, that's good. [01:29] rachaelb: I hear ya. I have my parents, grandmother, and brother running Linux. So if I can throw a book at them, all the better! [01:30] ok im part of the team :-D [01:30] well my mum is 81 and has been a complete convert for the last 4 years [01:30] Nice! [01:30] and i read somewhere that "grandmas dont use linux".... try telling that to my mom [01:31] It's certainly helped with all the 'how do I get this virus off my computer?' questions. [01:31] My grandma uses it and loves it. [01:31] Especially since her grandkids can't download worms from weird websites and slow down her computer. [01:31] once i set it all up for her, shes fine with it [01:32] she even understands the problems associated with the *other* o/s [01:32] and was thrilled when germany told people yesterday not to use ie cos of theproblems in china [01:32] and was telling her firends on the phone that this didnt affect her cos she used linux [01:32] I think that Linux is a great solution for those who just use the Internet and email. [01:33] Cheaper than OS X and more secure than Windows. [01:33] My mom got a virus on her Windows netbook the other day. But I've trained them not to pester me with Windows problems now. [01:34] prolly 4 the best [01:34] If it's a Linux issue, I'll try to help. If it's Windows, well, you're on your own! [01:34] (Primarily, because I haven't used Windows in such a long time that I haven't a clue how to help anymore.) [01:35] its nice to find someone who will help... someimtes you go into an irc room with a legitimate question jsut to be told (basically) to f*** off and work it out for yoursel [01:35] thats not the way to make *nixes user friendly [01:36] Definitely not. [01:37] I figure the more quickly I can help someone else learn how to do something, the sooner they can start teaching the next person. That means less work for me! :-) [01:38] absolutely... ok ive sigend up for the referecing and glossary :-D [01:38] Cool. If you need help getting start with it, feel free to pester me sometime. [01:39] i will do - definitely [01:39] how detailed is this manual going to be? [01:40] I'm not really sure. I'm just helping out with the formatting and code bits, not writing anything myself at the moment. [01:41] This is probably a silly question, but is it already written? [01:41] roinator: Nope, it's still being written. [01:42] Is there some sort of "current build"? [01:42] i mean while its fabulous to have anything as a beginners guide, unless it also covers non-ubuntu issues like installing codecs and how to use and install thrid party software then it will still not answer most noob questions [01:42] @roinator: it would appear that there is a current version - yeas [01:42] rachaelb: Error: "roinator:" is not a valid command. [01:43] roinator: it would appear that there is a current version - yes [01:43] roinator: I uploaded the latest PDF here for you: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/main.pdf [01:44] Cheers...I'd like to contribute, but I am not sure if I can be of any use. I thought seeing what is currently done might be helpful. [01:45] roinator: Sure! Feel free to poke around and if you find something you'd like to help with, dive in! [01:46] If you'd like to help write one of the chapters, you can find the assigned author/editor for that chapter and email him/her to discuss how you can contribute. [01:46] yikes! that needs a *lot* of work [01:46] The chapter authors can be found under the appropriate blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual [01:47] rachaelb: Yes, it does. The project just started 2-3 weeks ago. [01:47] that explains it then [01:47] ok its nearly 2am here [01:48] and i really, really need to get some zzzzzzz's in [01:48] rachaelb: Have a good night, then! [01:48] night all.... and to quote a certain state governor... "i'll be back" [02:00] godbyk, how can I link to other chapters in the standard way? [02:00] I tried \label{ch:troubleshooting} but it didn't work [02:00] wolter: Use \ref{ch:troubleshooting} or \nameref{ch:troubleshooting} [02:01] \label{blah} creates the linked-to point. [02:01] \ref, \pageref, and \nameref create links that take you to that \label. [02:02] godbyk, could you make a standard \chaplink{chapter-name} [02:03] so that it says for example "Chapter 9: Troubleshooting" [02:03] in bold or something [02:03] wolter: Sure, I can do that. [02:03] one sec. [02:03] I use those a lot, and I think other writers should as well [02:03] thanks :) [02:03] godbyk: This looks pretty damn good. I think I'll look into this more when I have a bit more time. At the moment I have an overwhelming number of questions regarding the project, and I think I should make an effort to answer a few on my own before I ask any here. Thanks for the help though. [02:04] roinator: No problem. If you have more questions, feel free to ask here or on the mailing list. [02:05] Your best place to look for answers is currently the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/ [02:06] wolter: I just pushed the \chaplink command. [02:06] Using \chaplink{ch:troubleshooting} will output "Chapter 0: Troubleshooting" [02:07] brb [02:11] back [02:25] thanks godbyk :) [03:22] godbyk, you're amazing :) [03:22] heh, thanks. [03:24] I didn't know pdfs supported links [03:31] godbyk, i will let know to the list that you made this chaplink thing, alright? [03:32] but also, could you make it so that you don't have to write ch: ? [03:35] also, I see that the link only covers the chapter number and the chapter name, but clicking the preceding "Chapter" string does nothing [03:40] brb [03:52] * humphreybc made a new ubuntu video today :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orbi31mE3r0 [03:55] I'm back now. [03:55] Sorry about the delay. Was chatting with a friend who stopped by. [04:00] godbyk, dont worry :) [04:23] so what's new in the land of the manual? [04:23] humphreybc, the new version of chapter 5 [04:23] take a look at the pull to see if you like it more [04:23] if not i will revert [04:23] cool [04:24] where did all the content go? [04:24] so you changed the colours of the sections/subsections? [04:24] to software-packaging/software-packaging-original.tex [04:24] i didn't [04:24] oh okay [04:24] so what's new? [04:24] its a complete rewrite [04:25] undone, of course [04:25] what was the reasoning for the rewrite? [04:26] well, i just read the ubuntu help center and thought that my approach was not straight enough [04:26] to that people that think that installing software in ubuntu is the worst part of.. ubuntu [04:31] wolter: Okay, if you forget the ch: prefix on the label you pass to \chaplink, it will add it for you. [04:32] Also, I've fixed it so that the entire string (including "Chapter") is a hyperlink. [04:32] wolter: fair enough, you're the author ;) [04:32] I'm going to try to find a way to detect if a label exists so I can make the \chaplink command a bit smarter (i.e., not always prepend ch: if the naked label exists). [04:32] godbyk, can i say you're awesome again? [04:32] In practice, however, please include the ch: prefix on chapter labels whenever you use them. [04:33] ok [04:33] will do then [04:34] hey guys [04:35] Hey, nisshh. [04:35] im just getting back to writing my chapter now [04:36] humphreybc, how do you like my new version? [04:36] but first i need to know what the hell is and isnt getting included in it [04:36] should I keep writing it, or continue with the other one? [04:36] nisshh: lol [04:36] fire some questions [04:36] kk [04:36] wolter: looks good! [04:37] what happened to some of chapter 6 being included? [04:37] and is my chapter 7 now actaully chapter 8 or something? [04:37] also what happened to cmd and security merging? [04:39] kk [04:39] cmd and security aren't merged anymore [04:39] your chapter 7 is still chapter 7 [04:39] we decided to include updating/upgrading in the last chapter of the "first half" [04:40] instead of putting it in the advanced section [04:40] nisshh, wow you've been out a whole piece of time :) [04:40] haha [04:40] ok good i understand more or less now [04:40] wolter: yes thats what 4 holidays in a row does to you [04:41] oh yes i understand haha [04:41] it happened to me on christmas [04:41] and then on new year [04:41] should i just go with whats currently in the ToC on the wiki [04:42] nisshh yes [04:42] hehe ok [04:42] Unless you think there is anyhing to add/remove [04:42] sure thing [04:42] oh and don't make it overly detailed - we are changing sort of to a Quick Start guide, so overall we need to watch page count. And the advanced stuff is least important to a new user [04:43] is our irc chan working alright yet? [04:43] yea ok [04:43] irc chan? [04:43] yes [04:44] what do you mean? [04:44] i saw the message on the mailing list about changing the channel for the meeting the other day [04:45] due to problems with this one [04:45] oh right [04:45] we still dont have a logbot [04:45] but MootBot is back [04:46] They just left for some reason and never returned [04:46] yep [04:46] humphreybc, how about ubuntulog, isn't he logging? [04:46] oh [04:46] didn't notice him! :P [04:46] roinator, for some reason youtube replies aren't working [04:47] the theme is elementary and the dock is docky :) [04:47] ahh ok...cool [04:47] hehe [04:47] I didn't know you could make docky look like that. [04:47] it's not Gnome Do docky, but docky as a separate application [04:47] they're splitting them up, this is the development version [04:47] Ohhhhh [04:47] it's very neat [04:48] does it still do the gnome-do ish stuff? [04:48] i think only the gnome-do version of docky does that [04:48] the actual seperate version doesnt [04:49] i think... [04:49] yeah...That would make sense, but I want a more variable appearance in gnome-do docky...so I was hoping. [04:50] I documented the \chaplink command on the Style Guide. [04:50] i need to read through all the new stuff on the styleguide now lol [04:50] there is ALOT [04:51] roinator: It can't do the Gnome Do stuff but you can get it working with Zeitgeist and Gnome Activity Journal [04:52] nisshh: Yeah, and I need to add more sometime. [04:52] And it has plugins like controlling banshee etc etc [04:52] For instance, should chapter titles use title case or sentence case? [04:52] How about sections and subheadings? [04:53] title case i reckon [04:55] all kinds of headings should follow the same style in my opinion [04:56] wolter: good point [04:57] that being title case : [04:57] ) [04:57] as it is formal english the language we are writing in [05:02] I don't see a reason why we need to capitalize every word in headings [05:03] I'm okay with it either way, but we should settle on one and be consistent. [05:03] I think that sentence case is easier to read a bit more informal than title case. [05:07] humphreybc: There was another discussion that took place earlier about establishing the tone of the manual. How formal/informal should it be? What kind of voice do we want to use? Should it be staid and serious? Light and fun? Quirky? [05:13] Somewhere in between? [05:13] We don't want to come across as Microsoft, boring and serious. But we don't want to come across as amateur. It needs to hold a "conversation" with the reader, and make them feel comfortable with what they're doing. [05:13] I think the tone that I set in the Prologue and Chapter 1 is fairly good [05:23] ooh. [05:23] http://news.softpedia.com/news/Ubuntu-Manual-Needs-You-Help-132478.shtml [05:23] this really helped the survey [05:23] we're at 674 responses [05:23] cool [05:24] Did we get more Windows/Mac users this time? [05:24] getting there [05:24] 42% windows so far [05:24] 40% ubuntu [05:24] need more mac users, grr. [05:24] i already tried asking in #macosx and ##windows [05:24] several times, in fact [05:25] and asked my pal who works at Apple to spread the link [05:27] Have any of you read any of Kathy Sierra's blog entries or essays? [05:28] i wonder if i can download the raw data and do my own segmentation analysis, so i can see specifically mac vs windows vs linux users' perspectives [05:28] godbyk: no; link pls? [05:28] IlyaHaykinson: It'd be good to have the full dataset instead of just aggregate data. Then we could do more in-depth analyses. [05:29] http://headrush.typepad.com/ [05:29] btw, holding steady at about a third wanting the ability to print out the manual [05:29] A lot of what she says applies to our manual. [05:30] We could also publish the book via Lulu (free to publish), and people could order a printed and bound copy of it, if they didn't want to print their own. [05:32] yes, we could, and definitely think we should. [05:32] I see no reason why we shouldn't. [05:32] though at this point i think there is a risk we will not hit the deadline. [05:32] there are a lot of early chapters with little progress [05:33] but, thanks to you, the manual is starting to -look- professional :) [05:35] re that blog, yeah, interesting. though i feel that a lot of her advice is pretty general [05:35] not that it's necessarily self-evident, but that it's ... just good common sense. and not specific knowledge. [05:36] IlyaHaykinson: A lot of it is, yeah. [05:36] please digg: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_Manual_Needs_Your_Help [05:37] dugg [05:50] i can't believe how many people read the news.softpedia.com page [05:51] the link is more than half way down the page, under a Linux heading. [05:51] ah. it's got a pretty high alexa rank [05:57] hm.. who is motang and why does he sound familiar? [06:05] ill be gone for an hour or two, if anyone needs me just email me instead [06:05] it will be hard to live with docky and gnome-do as different apps [06:06] or memoserv [06:06] :) [06:06] nobody uses that, but me [06:08] wolter: email works just as well, imho :) [06:09] IlyaHaykinson_, yeah well, in my opinion i have enough emails with the ubuntu list :) [06:10] heh. [06:18] hm, survey still ticking up. seems like we're at ~12 responses per hour. [06:18] which isn't bad. it means that if it lasts (and it won't, of course), we'd be at 1000 responses within a day. [06:22] Ha! someone wants our manual to describe "applications towards the creation of giant space dinosaur robots" :-) [06:22] we better get right on it [06:32] most of them dont know about UHC [07:10] pererik87, you still here? [07:12] hehehe did you guys see the new artwork updates? [07:12] humphreybc, of the coverpage? [07:12] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork [07:13] well you've been off for a long while I say [07:15] i have now [07:15] this kolorguild guy keeps working on new and new and new and new proposals [07:15] um regarding Lulu: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1378816&page=3 [07:15] post $24 [07:15] #24 * [07:16] I know nothing about it [07:16] oh i irc-know that guy [07:16] lol [07:16] hes always in the #unity-coders channel i told you about [07:17] right [07:19] lol @ "We just made RTFM a whole lot better" [07:20] yeah [07:20] what do you guys think about KolorGuild's new proposals? [07:20] excellent photo manip [07:20] I think they're a bit off the style we want [07:21] true [07:21] but they're different, and interesting. [07:21] new ideas are good :) [07:21] well yes, thats true [07:21] it's going to be soo damn hard to choose one [07:21] but I think they're too cluttered up [07:21] yes, indeed [07:22] but I think everybody is going for vish's with my lynx :) [07:22] * humphreybc is reading the questionnaire thread and the latest responses. I'm very pleased that most of what is being suggested is already being planned for the manual :) [07:22] yup [07:22] kolorguild has good ideas, but I think he needs to comply a little more with the style [07:22] I think vish's could use some more work though [07:22] your lynx is fantastic though wotler [07:22] wolter* [07:22] thanks :) [07:22] it's too bad we can't get everyone together in a room to brainstorm [07:22] oh, don't you use tab completion for nickks? [07:23] yeah well, with the meeting's new time setting i think we could talk about it in a meeting [07:23] oh for christ sake I didn't realise pidgin supported it till now. [07:23] indeed [07:23] humphreybc, don't you think one meeting a week is very little? [07:23] supported what? [07:23] tab completion [07:23] too little? [07:23] oh haha [07:23] you mean we should have meetings more often!? [07:23] yeah, not often enough i mean [07:23] hahaha [07:24] well maybe twice a weak [07:24] !! [07:24] i mean, this thing is going fast [07:24] true [07:24] but its just an idea [07:24] but most things we decide on in IRC [07:24] what are your comments on it? [07:24] our team communication is amazing [07:24] there are always active discussions in IRC, the mailing list is always busy, the wiki is always being changed etc and we have proper meetings once a week. I think we talk more than any other project [07:25] I like this team a lot you know [07:25] haha so do I [07:25] our team is awesome [07:25] Nobody is like that typical linux-consumed dude that tries to make everyone else look like a fool [07:25] ? [07:26] haha, i guess you haven't been in many irc channels [07:26] not really [07:26] if you go to #linux or #c channel, you'll find plenty of those [07:26] sometimes you trigger they're anger without knowing [07:26] humphreybc: you missed it when i said it earlier, but the survey's picked up thanks to a news.softpedia.com mention and some diggs [07:26] just saying the wrong words will do [07:26] lol.. "some" [07:26] like 400! [07:26] currently at 717 responses [07:27] yep Ilya don't worry I scroll up and read what's been said :) [07:27] ah, nice [07:27] that's amazing, how are the stats looking? [07:27] any interesting trends that we haven't accounted for? [07:27] good. short summary: need to cover software installation really well; printing; wireless and other networking [07:27] oh humphreybc, the graphics you showed in your video are based off the forum thread right? [07:28] open office for the apps [07:28] wolter: yeah it was the only usage example of spreadsheet i had lying around [07:28] as soon as we hit a thousand i'll prepare a good summary [07:28] Lol, I don't know what people don't understand about openoffice [07:28] fantastic work Ilya, truly well done. :) [07:28] and post that, as well as the raw data and the site's own summary data [07:28] interestingly there's little correlation so far between which OS people use and what they want to see in the manual [07:29] Well wolter I think it's more that OpenOffice is rather a large app with many settings, and it has three or more programs [07:29] awesome [07:29] except some thigns. like Windows people who've never used Ubuntu don't place a lot of value on covering printing [07:29] hmm that is interesting [07:29] well, it has like 5 [07:29] but people who have used it rate printing pretty high (meaning they had trouble) [07:29] indeed [07:29] crap [07:29] what are we doing about Ch 4? [07:30] i think chapters 1, 2, and 4 are in trouble right now. [07:30] chapter 1? [07:30] that's installation, right? [07:30] yea [07:30] that's my chapter [07:30] alright maybe it's time I sent a motivational email to the ml [07:30] yup. you need to make some progress on it :-) [07:31] at the same time, i think that's an easier one [07:31] mainly because the ubuntu folks have done an excellent job making a guided installation wizard that takes care of a lot of problems. [07:31] true [07:31] mainly i think you need to a) pretend that you're a windows user, with a.1) a live CD in hand, a.2) a link to ubuntu.com and a blank CD-R disk [07:32] I could help on installation chapter [07:32] humphreybc, would you say I should rather continue my old chap5 or develop the new one? [07:32] b) walk them through the live cd process, and then theinstallation [07:32] step by step (screen by screen) [07:32] wolter perhaps help on chapter 4 [07:32] yup [07:32] wolter: i think you have made some great progress on chap 5... [07:33] but i think it will need a lot more content still... [07:33] IlyaHaykinson_, with the new version of it? [07:33] IlyaHaykinson_, yes, indeed [07:33] yeah, i think the new version is a step in the right direction [07:33] but you need to get in depth on installing software using the software center, and make that your focus [07:33] there are a lot of people in the survey talking about software installation [07:34] i don't know if it's the majority or not -- it was in the fill-in response, so it's hard to quantify -- but packages and software center etc were frequent mentions [07:34] i recommend actually walking the user through the application, pretty much screen by screen, button-click by button-click [07:35] i think its the majority [07:35] at least thats all i read when I look at the thread [07:35] humphreybc: chapter 4 is a big, big deal. i think you need to split it up between more like 4 people and have them start making serious progress. [07:35] wolter: i mean the questionpro.com survey, with 700 responses [07:35] I don't know if we should provide a "In this chapter you will learn: " in some chapters [07:36] IlyaHaykinson_, oh [07:36] wolter: no need to have the bullets, in my opinion. they will have that with the table of contents, if they need it. [07:36] IlyaHaykinson_, goood point :) [07:36] wolter: and people do a good job of scanning the headings even when looking at the chapter itself, anyway. people are good scrollers these days :) [07:37] in general, and i don't mean to sound as alarmist as i might come off, i think we're not on track right now. we're 20 days from our alpha deadline when we're supposed to have most content written. [07:38] i know that i've got my work cut out for me with chap3, and i -think- i'll finish or get close. but we need to be making close to a page a day progress on chapters 2 and 4 as well, for sure. [07:38] When I published a book through lulu.com, I didn't put an ISBN on it, so I didn't encounter problems there. [07:40]