[00:31] <nixternal> stgraber: pongers
[00:33] <nixternal> stgraber: I am around, gonna have dinner...bbiaf
[00:39] <xnox> Bug #510407
[00:40] <xnox> Hello, what is edubuntu-seed inclusion process?
[00:40] <xnox> I've filed bug against edubuntu-meta package and I got redirected to brainstorm.....
[00:40] <xnox> I'm the maintainer of the proposed packages in Debian & Ubuntu =) and I'd love to see them part of the edubuntu seeds
[00:41]  * xnox was under impression seed includes are on launchpad now.....
[00:55] <crimsun> xnox: I think Montel perhaps was too hasty in rejecting that bug report
[00:55] <crimsun> xnox: nonetheless, it deserves discussion on the edubuntu-devel mailing list
[00:56] <xnox> Ok =) I'll send a mail there
[00:56] <xnox> Can I post to it without being subscribed?
[00:58] <crimsun> sure, but it'll be moderated
[01:03] <xnox> Hmmm. Ok I'll subscribe =)
[01:07] <xnox> crimsun: sent an email hopefully will get some feedback before the FF =)
[01:10] <xnox> Have a good day everyone
[02:11] <sbalneav> Evening all
[03:08] <sbalneav> Any edubuntu regulars or council members in here?
[03:09] <sbalneav> besides me and stgraber
[03:09] <sbalneav> ?
[03:09] <stgraber> alkis will probably appear a bit later, highvoltage might be sleeping (he said he'd stay up late but maybe not this late).
[03:09] <stgraber> Jordan doesn't seem to be around
[03:09] <stgraber> nixternal: ?
[03:12] <nixternal> yes
[03:13] <sbalneav> I'd be interested on your thoughts on the edubuntu-devel thread.
[03:13] <nixternal> which one? let me guess, bible software?
[03:14] <sbalneav> yeah.  See my response?
[03:14] <nixternal> yeah, good response
[03:15] <sbalneav> I was saying to stgraber, there's currently countries, iran comes to mind, where owning a copy of the bible is illegal.
[03:16] <nixternal> reply sent
[03:16] <sbalneav> If we ship it on the dvd, and someone downloads it, and gets arrested, I'd hate to have someone's incarceration on my conscience.  Let alone what legal liability there may be for us.
[03:17] <nixternal> which is interesting you brought that up...I just read about public flogging in Saudia Arabia for a teenage girl with a cell phone in school, 2 boys were caught reading the Christian Bible and were flogged as well...I would hate to be the reason for such a thing
[03:17] <sbalneav> And I can't see how we can legitimately say, "Yes, we're shipping the bible but we don't want to include an electronic copy of Dianetics"
[03:18] <sbalneav> I think it's a slippery slope that heads downhill very steeply
[03:18] <nixternal> there used to be Ichthux which was a Christian distro based off of Kubuntu, of which I worked on with raphink in Kubuntu and Jordan even pitched in back then iirc...there was that other Ubuntu one, then a Muslim one, and even Satanic Ubuntu, which had a really cool looking GDM screen :)
[03:19] <nixternal> speaking of Dianetics, I need to try and read through that
[03:20] <sbalneav> Yeah, I'm all in favour of Religious themed distros: but you download them *by choice*.
[03:20] <sbalneav> You know what you're getting
[03:20] <nixternal> right
[03:21] <crimsun> honestly, creating a metapackage for it (if one doesn't exist) is the better route
[03:21] <nixternal> I might be a christian, but I am pretty open minded....I love open source, so I obviously believe in choice...I try to stay away from the nut job fundamentalists like Jordan :p
[03:22] <nixternal> I would talk to raphink, as he was doing a lot of upstream work with christian software back in the day...I am willing to bet he would be done for a nice christian metapackage, which is honestly a good idea I think
[03:22] <sbalneav> crimsun: I think there are some metapackages, and that's a good suggestion for them that may strike a good balance.
[03:23] <sbalneav> But then it's on the archives, and can be installed or not by choice.
[03:23] <sbalneav> The dvd should, IMHO, remain secular to reach the widest audience.
[03:25] <sbalneav> an edubuntu-edu-chritian, edubuntu-edu-muslim, edubuntu-edu-zoroastrian metapackage would allow for easy post-install customization.
[03:25] <nixternal> I wouldn't do that
[03:25] <nixternal> I would do like a "christian-apps" or such metapackage
[03:28] <stgraber> Also something that disturbed me a bit is that currently Edubuntu is being mostly used by relatively young children, so I'm not sure that including religious content (whatever the religion) is very appropriate. I'd consider having these packages installed with an "educational goals" only if it was a ALL or NOTHING kind of choice (as in, learning about religions). Other than that (but that clearly depends on where you've been raised I guess) re
[03:30]  * stgraber didn't remember he typed that much ... ;)
[03:32] <sbalneav> I just posted the sugestion of the metapackages to the list.
[03:33] <sbalneav> I think that's the way to go.
[03:33] <stgraber> ok, so these would be meta-packages that'd only be in the archive, not be available as install task and won't be seeded on the DVD, right ?
[03:35] <sbalneav> right
[03:36] <sbalneav> So downloading and installing them is an act of Freedom of Religion, combined with Knowledge and Consent (one assumes).
[03:36] <nixternal> I personally wouldn't name them "edubuntu-$religion", that isn't really being secular now is it :)
[03:37] <sbalneav> Well, if they're in the archive, and not shipped, they can be called whatever.  I was trying to follow the sort-of "metapackages by grades" thing we have going.
[03:37] <nixternal> though, I kind of understand the educational factor behind it, don't think we should even think about meddling with anything religion related
[03:37] <sbalneav> But now we're into implementation details. :)
[03:37] <nixternal> right, but I would suggest "religion-$religion" or such
[03:37] <sbalneav> sure.
[03:38] <stgraber> nixternal: +1 especially as they wouldn't have anything to do with Edubuntu, it's just a set of packages that one can install on top of edubuntu but also kubuntu, xubuntu, ...
[03:38] <sbalneav> yeah, that'd be better, prolly, since that way they'd work for Ubuntu/Kubutu/Xubuntu, etc/
[03:38] <sbalneav> great minds... :)
[03:40] <sbalneav> stgraber: I'm gonna roll a new sabayon package right now, you gonna be around for another 1/2 hour?
[03:40] <stgraber> sbalneav: sure
[03:40] <crimsun> (if not there are two other core-dev present)
[03:41] <sbalneav> cool.
[03:41] <sbalneav> gimme two shakes of a lambs tail.
[04:23] <sbalneav> Ok, in my ppa should be a 2.29.5 build
[04:23] <sbalneav> tested
[04:23] <sbalneav> works
[04:23] <sbalneav> stgraber:
[04:23] <sbalneav> crimsun:
[04:23] <sbalneav> Whichever wants to wield their mighty mighty power, have at it :)
[04:23] <stgraber> sbalneav: ok, I'll have a look
[04:23] <sbalneav> should have our "updated" packaging of adduser :)
[04:24] <sbalneav> No repeats from last time :)
[04:24] <stgraber> hehe ;)
[04:24] <sbalneav> I don't know what's been going on with Xephyr, I've seen several updates for it, but it's wickedly fast now.
[04:25] <sbalneav> Smokin' Aces fast
[04:26] <stgraber> diff looks good (quickly went through the whole diff, both upstream and packaging)
[04:27] <stgraber> I'll be uploading that to archive in a minute or so
[04:30] <stgraber> sbalneav: uploaded
[04:31]  * sbalneav hugs stgraber 
[14:39] <highvolt1ge> ineternets way broken today :/
[14:40] <highvolt1ge> ogra: I can't edit the blueprint, could you please update https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-profile-and-network-session-management so that the wiki page points to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/edubuntu-profile-session ?
[14:47] <jbicha> Happy Wiki Day!
[14:56] <highvoltage> hi jbicha :)
[14:57] <jbicha> howdy, did you make it to Canada yet?
[14:58] <ogra> highvoltage, i cant
[14:58] <highvoltage> ogra: *nod* seems like it's not changable, I pinged #launchpad
[14:58] <highvoltage> jbicha: heh, getting the visa is a way too long process, so not yet
[15:11] <sbalneav> Morning all
[15:12] <highvoltage> morning sbalneav
[15:13] <sbalneav> Looks like post-lucid, ldap authentication's our big bugaboo :)
[15:14] <highvoltage> heh, now where have I heard that before :)
[15:15] <sbalneav> Of course, it's coming from Scott, who's gone on record as Edubuntu being an embarassment to FLOSS education, and has petitioned RocketMan to shut us down.
[15:15] <sbalneav> I always meant to tell him in a way he succeeded.
[15:16] <highvoltage> heh
[15:16] <sbalneav> However, we do need better ldap.  Post lucid, I'll inject myself into the auth-team.
[15:17] <highvoltage> sbalneav: yeah having nice centralized authentication has been the high priority on so many wishlists forever now
[15:17] <sbalneav> I have the skills the manage the actual LDAP/Kerberos parts.
[15:17] <sbalneav> my problems are:
[15:18] <sbalneav> 1) doing it "on the cd" the way people want means doing things distro-ey and with preseeds and such
[15:18] <sbalneav> and that's not a process I understand.
[15:19] <sbalneav> 2) Some of the things we may want to do will come in direct opposition to what the server team wants, which means we'll be totally on our own for supporting it.
[15:20] <sbalneav> And currently, we've got like, what, 6 active devs?
[15:20] <sbalneav> How many of the rest of you know ldap inside and out?
[15:20] <highvoltage> ldap scares the living daylights out of me
[15:21] <stgraber> highvoltage: I guess you'll have to get used to it ;)
[15:22] <stgraber> sbalneav: I do LDAP + kerberos
[15:22] <sbalneav> yeah, so there's like 2 of us. :(
[15:22] <sbalneav> It's a biiiig task
[15:23] <sbalneav> stgraber: and you know how hard some LDAP problems can be to fix :)
[15:23] <stgraber> sbalneav: yeah .. OpenLDAP isn't so bad though, it's a lot harder when you have to deal with eDirectory or AD ;)
[15:24] <highvoltage> stgraber: heh, I always accepted that I'll have to at some point :)
[15:24] <sbalneav> Well, and that's the problem.
[15:25] <sbalneav> THAT's what people are going to want us to deal with.
[15:25] <sbalneav> I don't even *have* AD, so I'm completely useless in that regard, all my work's against OpenLDAP.
[15:26] <stgraber> yeah, and you simply can't make a tool that will work with all three of them
[15:26] <sbalneav> And people keep making noises about how goot 389 (formerly fedora directory server) is.
[15:26] <stgraber> we have developped an account provisioning system at Revolution Linux which is/was used by the Canadian Space Agency (they stopped the project after a change in management) and it was a real pain to work with AD to add/remove/move accounts there
[15:27] <stgraber> so we pretty much have a plugin for each kind of directory and one ldap.conf for each of them too as attributes don't have the same name ...
[15:27] <stgraber> that and the fact that you absolutely need caching at least for eDirectory or you'll make it crash with relatively standard load
[15:28] <highvoltage> and that's why I hide under my bed when someone mentions authentication :)
[15:29] <sbalneav> yeah.  LDAP's "non trivial"
[15:29] <sbalneav> and the use cases that Scott points out have all "simplified the problem"
[15:29] <sbalneav> Which, quite frankly, I think is the right approach.
[15:30] <sbalneav> Take Debian-edu
[15:30] <sbalneav> they pre-seed a schema
[15:30] <sbalneav> all config files are setup for that schema
[15:30] <sbalneav> and they offer two installation modes
[15:30] <sbalneav> 1) regular debian-edu ltsp server
[15:31] <highvoltage> Internal Server Error
[15:31] <highvoltage> yay I crashed the ubuntu wiki
[15:31] <highvoltage> oh it's back again :)
[15:31] <sbalneav> 2) an "NFS + LDAP + kerb" auth server
[15:31] <sbalneav> so, you install one box on your network this way
[15:31] <sbalneav> then just point all the rest of your boxes to the first one.
[15:32] <sbalneav> Everything "just works"
[15:32] <sbalneav> and if you say, "well, I want to auth off an AD server"
[15:32] <sbalneav> they basically just point you to some wiki pages and say "off you go, then"
[15:32] <sbalneav> So, they solve the 60% use case
[15:32] <highvoltage> option 2 sounds very useful to many people
[15:33] <sbalneav> and don't care about the 40%
[15:33] <sbalneav> So, they have something
[15:33] <sbalneav> Ubuntu keeps trying to solve the 100% case
[15:33] <mhall119|work> having a pre-assembled NFS + LDAP + Kerb would be a wonderful solution for more than just schools
[15:33] <sbalneav> and after 3 years or so, there's not a lot to show for it.
[15:33] <sbalneav> mhall119|work: Yes, we KNOW :)
[15:34] <highvoltage> stgraber: what's OAPS?
[15:34] <sbalneav> My vote would be:
[15:34] <highvoltage> stgraber: just came across it on the bottem of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuMassMaintenance
[15:34] <sbalneav> 1) steal^H^H^H^Huse as much of what debian-edu does as we can
[15:34] <sbalneav> 2) ???
[15:34] <sbalneav> 3) PROFIT :)
[15:34] <highvoltage> stgraber: oops, nevermind, I misread OpenRevolution for RevolutionLinux
[15:35] <sbalneav> Then we'd have SOMETHING.
[15:36] <sbalneav> The advantage is, as we improve/adapt debian-edu stuff, if we fix bugs, we can upstream it back to them.
[15:37] <sbalneav> I idle in debian-edu all the time, and anything I can do to foster more intercommunication with us and them I think's a win for both of us.
[15:40] <highvoltage> LaserJock may also have some history of previous attempts that may be useful
[15:40] <LaserJock> that's why I stopped in
[15:40] <highvoltage> of course!
[15:41] <highvoltage> LaserJock: sbalneav is attacking the authentication/LDAP issues again for Lucid+1
[15:41] <LaserJock> I see
[15:43] <sbalneav> Well, I took a prettu hard look about 6 months ago at the debian-edu stuff
[15:43] <LaserJock> this is one of the things where I thought it'd be helpful to have a roadmap, some sort of strategy doc, etc.
[15:44] <LaserJock> to be able to look at the scope
[15:44] <sbalneav> agreed.
[15:44] <LaserJock> and what Edubuntu can and can't do and what it should and shouldn't do
[15:44] <sbalneav> We had one at one point, didn't we?
[15:44] <LaserJock> kinda
[15:44] <sbalneav> on the wikly?
[15:44] <LaserJock> I never liked it :-)
[15:44] <sbalneav> lol
[15:44] <LaserJock> it just didn't do it for me
[15:45] <LaserJock> I was missing something
[15:45] <LaserJock> part of it is, nobody really agrees on what Edubuntu *should* be
[15:45] <highvoltage> sbalneav: what happened to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuNetworkAuthServer ?
[15:45] <LaserJock> the scope just balloons too quickly
[15:45] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I agree!
[15:46] <LaserJock> so LDAP/auth is one of those things where it's at an interface between Server and Edubuntu
[15:46] <sbalneav> highvoltage: yeah, let's resurrect that page.
[15:46] <LaserJock> and the question is whether Edubuntu needs to have a secondary, cheerleading type role
[15:46] <LaserJock> or whether Edubuntu should lead the charge

[15:47] <sbalneav> One of the biggest problems we've had, since day 1, is lots of people (present company excluded) TALKING about what they want edubuntu to be
[15:48] <LaserJock> I would include the present company ;-)
[15:48] <sbalneav> But nobody (present company excluded) Doing any freaking work to do the work.
[15:48] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Nah, you did your time.  You worked.
[15:49] <sbalneav> Personally, I think it's time we just start saying "OK, you want feature X?  Here's how we're going to do it"
[15:49] <LaserJock> I always attributed it to 1) unclear, unfocused goals/targets/roadmap and 2) lack of energy from the top
[15:49] <sbalneav> "Oh, don't like it that way?  That's fine, then YOU do it!"
[15:50] <sbalneav> "Oh, you say you don't have time/programming skills to do it?  Then get out of the way and let us get SOMETHING done!"
[15:50] <LaserJock> I always like being strategic about things
[15:50] <sbalneav> that's how other distro's are getting the problems solved.
[15:50] <LaserJock> so that everything we do is towards a specific, measurable goal
[15:51] <LaserJock> I think probably the biggest problem with Edubuntu is that the majority of users we hear from only care about LTSP
[15:51] <sbalneav> I'm all in favour of community.  But if the community is mostly comprised of people saying "It sucks the way things are... why won't someone make it better", then lets get on with it.
[15:51] <LaserJock> as a whole, the development wanted Edubuntu to be more than just Ubuntu LTSP
[15:52] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Which should tell you something about the people using Edubuntu
[15:52] <sbalneav> they're using it to deploy LTSP
[15:52] <LaserJock> but if you look at the lists and what people ask questions about, it's 99% LTSP
[15:52] <Tm_T> sbalneav: I would love to be payed developing Edubuntu (:
[15:52] <alkisg> I don't think it gives them much more than that, currently... what else? kdeedu + a theme?
[15:52] <LaserJock> alkisg: that's preciously the problem
[15:53] <LaserJock> any time we try to go away from LTSP people yell at us
[15:53] <highvoltage> (and from lucid a netbook option and live ltsp and some other things)
[15:53] <alkisg> I'm with sbalneav on this, we should pack up some solutions and put them on the DVD for teachers
[15:53] <alkisg> Not focus on upstream work, that's somebody else's work...
[15:53] <sbalneav> Tm_T: I'll gladly split half my earnings with you.
[15:53] <sbalneav> 0/2 =
[15:53] <LaserJock> but this is the problem
[15:54] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is not defined enough, not focused enough
[15:54] <Tm_T> sbalneav: indeed
[15:54] <highvoltage> LaserJock: you're a scientist, it's cause and effect. ltsp is currently one of the biggest features in edubuntu, so a large majority of users that currently use it does so because they have an interest in that
[15:54] <LaserJock> so you get sort of random looking contributions
[15:54] <highvoltage> LaserJock: you can't blame the users aboot that
[15:54] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I'm not blaming them
[15:54] <LaserJock> but I do wish we had room to grow

[15:54] <stgraber> highvoltage: even though they'll get exactly the same for 3GB less by using ubuntu alternate ;)
[15:54] <sbalneav> Gotta close my tags
[15:55] <alkisg> Heh
[15:55] <highvoltage> stgraber: heh, indeed
[15:55] <LaserJock> my assumption from the beginning was that people wanted LTSP as tool to do education
[15:55] <LaserJock> not as an ends to itself
[15:56] <LaserJock> as time went on it basically looked to me like I was wrong
[15:56] <LaserJock> all people cared about was getting an LTSP server going
[15:56] <LaserJock> what happened afterward was not very important
[15:56] <sbalneav> Because that was their biggest problem of the moment.
[15:56] <LaserJock> that's I think what was hard for me
[15:56] <sbalneav> they've got 25 old boxes
[15:56] <LaserJock> I don't care (wonderful as it is) about LTSP
[15:56] <LaserJock> I don't use it, I probably won't ever professionally
[15:57] <LaserJock> so I wanted to focus on the actual educational stuff
[15:57] <LaserJock> either what you do after the LTSP server is up and running
[15:57] <LaserJock> or if you do  1:1
[15:57] <LaserJock> or if you're just at home with a kids computer
[15:58] <LaserJock> and Edubuntu just never grew past getting LTSP off the ground
[15:58] <sbalneav> It certainly did.
[15:58] <sbalneav> It's just that, you can't USE edubuntu in a lab setting until you get the LTSP part going.
[15:58] <alkisg> LaserJock: what is the "actual educational stuff" for you?
[15:59] <sbalneav> and the LTSP parts always the hardest part because it's the peice tht has to handle the most variables.
[15:59] <LaserJock> ok
[15:59] <LaserJock> but I've dealt with labs
[15:59] <LaserJock> even *buntu labs
[15:59] <LaserJock> and *none* of them used LTSP
[15:59] <LaserJock> but they sucked for education because there was not a lot of edu stuff there
[16:00] <LaserJock> LTSP is a hard part, but it's not the only part
[16:00] <highvoltage> no one ever said it was though
[16:00] <LaserJock> no, but clearly that's the emphasis
[16:00] <LaserJock> and that's what Edubuntu is known for
[16:01] <highvoltage> the only reason why we have some LTSP related tasks for Lucid is that our users demanded it
[16:01] <LaserJock> and any time we've ever said something like "let's not worry too much about LTSP and focus on education" people get upset
[16:01] <highvoltage> it doesn't have any kind of priority above anything else
[16:01] <LaserJock> I'm not saying that LTSP shouldn't be there or that it shouldn't be worked on
[16:01] <highvoltage> LaserJock: like who?
[16:01] <LaserJock> I think it's a key technology
[16:01] <sbalneav> I'm not sure what the problem is here.
[16:02] <sbalneav> You say 99% of our users want LTSP to work
[16:02] <alkisg> Edubuntu currently doesn't have neither the developers nor the experience to develop educational software.
[16:02] <alkisg> It shouldn't focus there.
[16:02] <sbalneav> We spend a lot of time making sure the infrastructure (including LTSP) works.
[16:02] <LaserJock> ok, well, I guess here's my point
[16:02] <sbalneav> aren't we just DOING WHAT PEOPLE WANT? :)
[16:02] <highvoltage> LaserJock: alkisg is right, and the people who understand education well is just not interested in contributing lots of their time
[16:02] <LaserJock> that's fine
[16:03] <LaserJock> but for instance, our moodle was completely broken for well over a year
[16:03] <LaserJock> we've not done anything with dynamic menus
[16:03] <alkisg> highvoltage: I agree. So maybe in the future we could look at that "developing educational software" idea again, but I don't think it's a task we should be looking now.
[16:03] <LaserJock> nothing about making the UI more usable for kids
[16:03] <LaserJock> nothing with Sugar
[16:04] <LaserJock> it seems like historically LTSP + Edu is too much
[16:04] <LaserJock> Edubuntu == LTSPbuntu
[16:04] <sbalneav> LaserJock: 1) None of us knew about moodle, 2) I thought *YOU* were handling the dynamic menus, 3) We have no UI people, 4) We have no sugar people
[16:04] <LaserJock> in terms of what users are wanting to get out of it
[16:04] <highvoltage> LaserJock: mgariepy is doing great work for menus for lucid
[16:04] <LaserJock> sbalneav: exactly my point
[16:05] <alkisg> So, what can we do with the *current* resources that we have?
[16:05] <highvoltage> LaserJock: mhall119|work has been getting involved with us, we're going to include as much of the Qimo4kids stuff as possible in the future, that does work on simplifying interface for younger users
[16:05] <sbalneav> LaserJock: So what's the solution? We don't currently have these people, so what?  Do we stop doing what we can do?  Shut the project down?
[16:06] <LaserJock> alkisg:  not waste them
[16:06] <LaserJock> no
[16:06] <sbalneav> How are we WASTING resources?!
[16:06] <LaserJock> I don't know that you guys are
[16:06] <alkisg> LaserJock: right. I'm helping stgraber + highvoltage on LTSP/fat clients now, so I'll get edubuntu Lucid to maybe 100 more schools. Is that a waste of time?
[16:06] <LaserJock> but it seems like things are sort of random
[16:07] <LaserJock> I know where you're coming from
[16:07] <LaserJock> you do what bits you're able to with what you've got
[16:07] <highvoltage> LaserJock: they're not random, we're just doing the best we can with the resources we currently have
[16:07] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: Qimo's desktop uses XFCE, do you want to make your kid-friendly UI require a whole different DE?
[16:08] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: there used to be a meta-package called something like edubuntu-desktop-lite that was meant for xfce desktops, but I think no one maintained it anymore
[16:08] <LaserJock> we had it until XFCE got demoted
[16:08] <mhall119|work> demoted?
[16:09] <highvoltage> to universe
[16:09] <LaserJock> well, so we keep talking about resources
[16:09] <sbalneav> Well, we don't care about that distinction anymore, since we can ship anything we want on the dvd.
[16:09] <LaserJock> I guess what I'm suggesting
[16:09] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: point is, if we make it easier for ubuntu users to use qimo, we're not wasting time, at least not imho
[16:09] <LaserJock> is that Edubuntu find itself
[16:09] <LaserJock> focus on what it wants to do go
[16:09] <LaserJock> *good
[16:09] <LaserJock> and then *get* resources
[16:10] <highvoltage> with the archive reorg main/universe destinction doesn't matter all that much anyway
[16:10] <mhall119|work> okay then
[16:10] <LaserJock> one of the things that historically Edubuntu has done worse at than other derivs is getting involved with the other parts of Ubuntu
[16:10] <mhall119|work> I'd be happy to have Qimo as an install option in Edubuntu
[16:11] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: yep, as we discussed before it would be nice shipping them on the Edubuntu dvd once the packages are available
[16:11] <mhall119|work> right, packages..
[16:11] <sbalneav> We're like 6 people.
[16:11] <mhall119|work> do I need Lucid installed to make packages for Lucid?
[16:11] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: nope
[16:11] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: I could test them for you though
[16:12] <highvoltage> LaserJock: our strategy for lucid at least, is just to sort out our current biggest problems
[16:12] <sbalneav> Quite frankly, I've heard for 4+ years that edubuntu should "find iteself".
[16:12] <sbalneav> I'm tired of looking.
[16:12] <LaserJock> yep
[16:13] <sbalneav> I just want to fix things so they work.
[16:13] <highvoltage> LaserJock: our ISO image is *double* the size it needs to be, the dependencies to sort that out then becomes a high priority
[16:13] <LaserJock> highvoltage: ok, how big do you want it to be?
[16:13] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: cool, I can test them in a VM too, just wasn't sure if I needed lucid dev tools to make them
[16:13] <sbalneav> Let me know when we know what/where we are.
[16:13] <highvoltage> LaserJock: we're going to drop the alternate installer, so it's basically going to halve in size
[16:14] <highvoltage> LaserJock: well, almost half in size
[16:14] <LaserJock> highvoltage: will the alternate installer work for Edubuntu's users?
[16:14] <LaserJock> highvoltage: why half?
[16:14] <highvoltage> LaserJock: because we're currently shipping everything twice on the DVD. we have a live cd and then everything again as .debs
[16:14] <mhall119|work> because you have to include the packages differently between the live session and alternate install
[16:14] <LaserJock> highvoltage: right, but what size do you want to be?
[16:15] <LaserJock> sbalneav: what things do you want to fix?
[16:15] <highvoltage> LaserJock: oh, I don't care particularly about what size it is. I care that we're wasting half the space we're currently shipping
[16:15] <LaserJock> highvoltage: right, I see that as a problem
[16:15] <LaserJock> this is what I'm trying to say
[16:16] <LaserJock> if you have targets
[16:16] <LaserJock> when you reach them you stop, move on to another target having accomplished a goal
[16:16] <LaserJock> Edubuntu could fix a lot of things
[16:16] <LaserJock> but are they the right things
[16:16] <LaserJock> that make the impacts that Edubuntu is seeking to achieve
[16:17] <LaserJock> certainly it's a bit higher level, but it doesn't need to end up in RichEd land
[16:17] <alkisg> We're only a few people, already having specific goals each
[16:18] <alkisg> So there's not much time to give to more generic goals...
[16:18] <LaserJock> ... and that's why Edubuntu hasn't gotten very far in the last couple years
[16:18] <LaserJock> I just did the little things I cared about
[16:18] <highvoltage> LaserJock: it's gotten further in the last few months than it has in a *very* *very* long time
[16:18] <LaserJock> sbalneav did his things, stgraber, highvoltage, etc.
[16:18] <alkisg> Right. People here are NOT intererested in fixing sugar. They left :)
[16:19] <LaserJock> highvoltage: has it thought?
[16:19] <LaserJock> I'm not questioning that great things are going on, don't get me wrong
[16:19] <highvoltage> LaserJock: yes
[16:19] <LaserJock> but what is the standard by which you're determining success here?
[16:19] <alkisg> So, with the resources that we have left, I think we can bring people to edubuntu by preconfiguring/prepackaging some _existing_ solutions for schools.
[16:19] <LaserJock> alkisg: what is Edubuntu's "resources"?
[16:19] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I'm comparing what's been happening in the last few months to the last few years
[16:20] <alkisg> LaserJock: a couple of our hours per day.... that's about it.
[16:20] <LaserJock> alkisg: are you sure?
[16:20] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the education focus, and setting good milestones, etc
[16:21] <alkisg> LaserJock: do you think we have something else? (of course I'm not refering to release systems etc)
[16:21] <LaserJock> alkisg: I do
[16:21] <highvoltage> LaserJock: but I disagree with you that we're doing particularly bad right now, Lucid is by far going to be the best Edubuntu release ever
[16:21] <LaserJock> highvoltage: I'm not saying you're doing particularly bad, quite the opposite
[16:21] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure I'd call Lucid the best release ever
[16:22] <highvoltage> LaserJock: which one would you put above it?
[16:22] <ogra> nah, that was breezy
[16:22] <LaserJock> probably one of the early ones
[16:22] <highvoltage> ogra: you are biased :)
[16:22] <LaserJock> because it was going somewhere
[16:22] <LaserJock> it was more momentum and relative change
[16:22] <highvoltage> LaserJock: how are we not going somewhere with lucid?
[16:22] <ogra> highvoltage, pfft never :)
[16:23] <LaserJock> Lucid, while great, isn't revolutionary in any educational sense
[16:23] <highvoltage> LaserJock: did we really have more momentum then!? because it really doesn't feel so
[16:23] <highvoltage> right, and it's not meant to be yet
[16:23] <LaserJock> how has the educational app selection changed in Lucid?
[16:23] <ogra> LaserJock, probably not as a release but as a milestone for the developer community
[16:23] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I changed the seeds to include a bunch of stuff from universe that we never did before
[16:23] <ogra> there has never been as much development effort as currently is going on
[16:24] <ogra> and it seems to raise
[16:24] <LaserJock> highvoltage: and how much has that been testing?
[16:24] <alkisg> LaserJock: what did edubuntu breezy offer that ubuntu breezy didn't offer?
[16:24] <LaserJock> alkisg: a focus on Education, IMO
[16:24] <ogra> alkisg, the edu apps and artwork
[16:24] <ogra> alkisg, since then the edu part didnt change much
[16:24] <highvoltage> LaserJock: I made the changes just before the alpha release (Ubuntu Alpha 2), stgraber will be sponsoring those changes this week so that we can test it next week
[16:25] <alkisg> ogra: couldn't someone put the edu apps on an ubuntu installation?
[16:25] <sbalneav> LaserJock: I've been doing nothing but testing for the last 3 weeks.
[16:25] <ogra> alkisg, nope, no space
[16:25] <alkisg> Isn't that what many people are doing currently?
[16:25] <LaserJock> ok, well, I guess I'm just not quite able to get this stuff across on IRC very well
[16:25] <mhall119|work> alkisg: not on a CD image
[16:25] <alkisg> ogra: no I meant on their PCs, AFTER installing the ubuntu cd...
[16:25] <LaserJock> it's not about so much the technical bits
[16:25] <ogra> LaserJock, i understand you and partially agree
[16:25] <LaserJock> I don't mean us testing
[16:25] <LaserJock> I mean, how do we know that Lucid's apps are the apps that teachers want
[16:25] <ogra> alkisg, sure that was possible even before edubuntu existed
[16:26] <LaserJock> and how do we know they work for teachers
[16:26] <alkisg> ogra, that's why 95% of greek teachers do not use Edubuntu. It doesn't offer them anything they don't already have.
[16:26] <LaserJock> exactly!
[16:26] <LaserJock> that's what I'm after
[16:26] <alkisg> So breezy was NOT a good release
[16:26] <ogra> LaserJock, what i see though and appreciate very much is that there *is* developer effort going on, it will take its time to actually get to the edu bits and reorganize
[16:26] <LaserJock> I was 100% of greek teachers using Edubuntu
[16:26] <alkisg> But Lucid will offer them things NOT in Ubuntu
[16:27] <LaserJock> ogra: very true
[16:27] <LaserJock> and I want to be clear that I'm not knocking the current effort
[16:27] <ogra> i'd call Lucid the "release thats getting it back on track"
[16:27] <LaserJock> I'm very very pleased to see all the hard work
[16:27] <mhall119|work> how does the project currently get input from teachers?
[16:28] <ogra> but there is definately room for improvement in the edu sector
[16:28] <highvoltage> LaserJock: you know as well as anyone that whatever we need to include needs to have the appropriate licensing, needs to be packaged, etc
[16:28] <sbalneav> mhall119|work: We have a mailing list, an irc, meetings, wiki pages, etc.
[16:28] <LaserJock> I guess what I'm not sure about is how Lucid will be received in the user community
[16:28] <highvoltage> LaserJock: with a shorter than usual feature freeze and with lots already to be done and tested, we just didn't have the time to focus tremendously on education for Lucid
[16:28] <LaserJock> sure
[16:28] <mhall119|work> sbalneav: of those, only the mailing list is really accessible to a non-technical teacher
[16:29] <highvoltage> LaserJock: and that's less than ideal, it doesn't mean that it will be the same for lucid+1
[16:29] <sbalneav> mhall119|work: ok
[16:29] <sbalneav> So the mailing list should be flooded with teachers giving suggestions, right?
[16:29] <highvoltage> LaserJock: if we get everything right for Lucid, then we could put lots of good focus towards educational value-add for Lucid+1
[16:29] <LaserJock> or will you be fixing LTSP and LDAP?
[16:30] <mhall119|work> sbalneav: is the mailing list email listed as a contact email on the edubuntu website?
[16:30] <sbalneav> Teachers should be FLOCKING to the mailing list telling us how testing's going, what apps they want to see, use cases, etc., right?
[16:30]  * sbalneav goes to look at the mailing list
[16:30] <sbalneav> Nope
[16:30] <highvoltage> LaserJock: also, the kind of big problems you talk about... I don't know of anyone who's really made tremendous strides like what you're talking about, not even K12LTSP who has been around for much longer
[16:30] <mhall119|work> sbalneav: no, but they should be asking questions
[16:30] <sbalneav> And they are
[16:30] <sbalneav> about ltsp
[16:30] <LaserJock> highvoltage: which is why I thought Edubuntu had a chance
[16:30] <sbalneav> about ldap auth
[16:30] <LaserJock> right
[16:31] <sbalneav> and we're answering them
[16:31] <highvoltage> LaserJock: well there you go, if you don't believe that Edubuntu has any kind of "chance" then I'm probably just wasting time talking to you
[16:31] <mhall119|work> sbalneav: cool, what about kid's apps?
[16:31] <LaserJock> so I can't help but wonder if Edubuntu needs to figure out if it's Education or LTSP, I'm not sure it can be great at both for the foreseeable future
[16:31] <sbalneav> What about them?
[16:31] <mhall119|work> are you getting questions about them?
[16:31] <sbalneav> "what about kids apps" isn't a question.
[16:31] <sbalneav> mhall119|work: Look for yourself
[16:32] <sbalneav> answer is "no"
[16:32] <ogra> LaserJock, why not ...
[16:32] <sbalneav> We can only answer questions that we get.
[16:32] <LaserJock> ogra: because we've never pulled it off in the past
[16:32] <ogra> LaserJock, its starts to attract more devs and apparently some of these arent even intrested in LTSP
[16:32] <ogra> just give it time
[16:33] <LaserJock> ogra: and most importantly because it seems to me that LTSP and "Edu" are orthogonal problems
[16:33] <sbalneav> We can only fix bugs that get get filed.
[16:33] <mhall119|work> the mailing list linked to on the website is edubuntu-devel, is that correct?
[16:33] <LaserJock> it seems to me that most LTSP people are really trying to sysadmin an educational server
[16:33] <sbalneav> AFAIK, both are lined on the site.
[16:33] <mhall119|work> I mean, is that what is intended
[16:33] <ogra> LaserJock, i beg to disagree ... they are surely not as joint as they are promoted atm, but LTSP is an instrument thats being used in education
[16:33] <alkisg> LaserJock: yes, that's exactly what teachers want edubuntu for :)
[16:34] <alkisg> For educational applications, we have upstream, not distros...
[16:34] <LaserJock> ogra: LTSP is like a say an email server
[16:34] <ogra> alkisg, but who integrates the educational apps ?
[16:34] <LaserJock> a teacher wants to use email
[16:34] <sbalneav> http://www.edubuntu.org/help, no looks like the first link's wrong.
[16:34] <ogra> alkisg, there is totally agree with LaserJock that edubuntu is lacking
[16:34] <LaserJock> but that doesn't mean they're concerned about the nuts and bolts of an email server
[16:34] <mhall119|work> alkisg: there is something to say about pre-configured distros
[16:34] <alkisg> ogra: I don't think edubuntu is suffering from packaging problems. It has other, more important problems :)
[16:35] <sbalneav> first one should be to edubuntu users.
[16:35] <ogra> alkisg, i'm not saying *packging*
[16:35] <ogra> alkisg, where is the moodle server teachers asked for since several years ?
[16:35] <ogra> why arent there more edu apps integrated from the archive yet
[16:35] <ogra> etc etc
[16:36] <LaserJock> what I'm wondering is if what i'd call "educational infrastructure" needs more outsourcing
[16:36] <mhall119|work> is moodle that much in demand?  I tried it but it didn't seem intuitive to me
[16:36] <alkisg> ogra: there ARE some applications integrated. Still, teachers use Ubuntu instead of edubuntu. Why would integrading more apps change that?
[16:37] <ogra> alkisg, while i agree with all of you that LTSP *is* an important part ... and that an automatic LDAP setup might be awesome, there is definately not been much change in the past in the edu app selection of edubuntu
[16:37] <LaserJock> and it's not just about "app selection" itself
[16:37] <LaserJock> but how you get the app selection
[16:37] <mhall119|work> ogra: it already has just about all the good open source edu apps
[16:37] <ogra> nor has there been much work with upstreams to make edu apps more flawlessly integrated
[16:37] <LaserJock> what the UI looks like
[16:37] <LaserJock> etc.
[16:37] <LaserJock> there are a *ton* of Java edu apps out there that are not packaged
[16:38] <ogra> mhall119|work, i know, i made that selection about 5 years ago .... and it didnt change much
[16:38] <alkisg> (06:36:52 μμ) alkisg: ogra: there ARE some applications integrated. Still, teachers use Ubuntu instead of edubuntu. Why would integrading more apps change that?
[16:38] <mhall119|work> are there?  Only one I've ever used and distrubuted is Alice
[16:38] <ogra> alkisg, *integration*
[16:38] <mhall119|work> integration != installation
[16:38] <ogra> alkisg, like working 100% flawless
[16:38] <sbalneav> ogra, LaserJock agreed.  Not much work got done on setting vision, or app selection, or packaging java apps.
[16:39] <alkisg> They would work on Edubuntu but not on Ubuntu?
[16:39] <ogra> why cant i drag and drop my images from nautilus or dolphin into tuxpaint ?
[16:39] <mhall119|work> in Qimo, we don't just include the apps, we pre-configure the bottom panel with launchers, tux paint with stamps and a default save directory, etc
[16:39]  * sbalneav looks very very very pointedly at ogra and laserjock
[16:39] <sbalneav> and why not?
[16:39] <highvoltage> sbalneav: let it slide
[16:39] <sbalneav> maybe because of the same reason as now
[16:39] <ogra> (or from thunar, sorry xfce users :) )
[16:40] <sbalneav> because there just aren't enough people here working on it.
[16:40] <mhall119|work> ogra: because Tux Paint doesn't support it?
[16:40] <LaserJock> my point is maybe that we need to look more outside "people here"
[16:40] <ogra> mhall119|work, right, thats my point
[16:40] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is *never* going to have a lot of developers
[16:40] <LaserJock> but there are a lot of developers out there in Ubuntu and the broader community
[16:40] <mhall119|work> ogra: so you think we should be contributing feature enhancements upstream?
[16:40] <sbalneav> "we need" to X, Y and Z
[16:40] <alkisg> ogra: so you're suggesting that teachers or the few developers with the couple of free hours per day here should do upstream tuxpaint work?
[16:41] <ogra> mhall119|work, no, just find such issues and bug them for a start ...
[16:41] <ogra> alkisg, thats not what i'm saying
[16:41] <mhall119|work> ogra: to be honest, I've never seen someone even try to drag and drop an image into tuxpaint
[16:41] <mhall119|work> then again, Qimo defaults it to fullscreen
[16:41] <ogra> i'm saying you guys should (once there are more devs) make the experience for a teacher as flawless as possible
[16:41] <LaserJock> so looking at LDAP/auth, perhaps it's maybe more worthwhile to have a serious sit-down with the Server team
[16:41] <ogra> mhall119|work, that was just an example
[16:42] <sbalneav> Had enough of this for the day.
[16:43] <LaserJock> sbalneav: sorry dude, I really really didn't mean to harsh the mood :(
[16:43] <ogra> mhall119|work, what i'm trying to get across is that it takes little work to file such a lack upstream and if edubuntu is the first distro including such a change (because some intrested MOTU provided a fix) it will rock the teachers world
[16:43] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I'm with you
[16:43] <mhall119|work> ogra: perhaps
[16:43] <mhall119|work> have you filed a bug for that?
[16:43] <ogra> mhall119|work, its "make the ditro woprk right" ... but indeed for that "right" you need teachers input etc
[16:44] <mhall119|work> ogra: have you entered a bug against tux paint to get drag and drop support?
[16:44] <ogra> currently as alkisg says, the edu part of edubuntu is only a selection of apps ...
[16:44] <ogra> mhall119|work, no
[16:44] <mhall119|work> why not?
[16:45] <ogra> because i dont touch edu apps anymore ... i've done that for 5 years 14h/day
[16:45] <ogra> 6 days/week
[16:45] <mhall119|work> then the only person who has noticed the bug and wants it fixed isn't reporting it
[16:45] <ogra> sigh
[16:45] <ogra> you dont understand me
[16:45] <mhall119|work> I do understand you
[16:45] <ogra> i'm not talking about tuxpaint
[16:45] <mhall119|work> yes, I get that
[16:46] <ogra> i'm trying to get across where edubuntu can be more than just a selection of apps
[16:46] <mhall119|work> my point is that I report bugs and request features when I come across them
[16:46] <ogra> and what i meant by integration
[16:46] <ogra> right
[16:46] <ogra> i didnt mean to blame you :)
[16:46] <mhall119|work> I assume that everyone else does too
[16:46] <LaserJock> but some of use aren't educators
[16:46] <LaserJock> and that's a problem
[16:47] <mhall119|work> are any of us educators?
[16:47] <LaserJock> I can take a stab at filing bugs that I think educators would care about
[16:47] <LaserJock> but it's much better to actually get educators involved
[16:47] <LaserJock> I think that's some of what ogra's trying to say
[16:47] <highvoltage> LaserJock: if you want to help edubuntu, then please contribute, or send us some good suggestions or even complaints, but right now I think the only think you're doing here is rambling your agenda without listening to anyone else
[16:47] <ogra> right, and look over their sholder and see them failing with a drag/drop in tuxpaint ;)
[16:48] <LaserJock> highvoltage: fair enough, carry on
[16:48] <mhall119|work> ogra: have you seen that?
[16:48] <ogra> mhall119|work, no, i dont look over educators sholders, but it would help if someone did
[16:48] <mhall119|work> it sure would be, then we can find actual bugs and feature requests
[16:49] <ogra> and if this someone would make a writeup etc so it gets across to you guys
[16:49] <alkisg> To be honest, I didn't even understand LaserJock's agenta, it was too vague for me.
[16:49] <mhall119|work> and if we had a budget to hire someone to do that, things would be easier
[16:50] <ogra> mhall119|work, there once was ...
[16:50] <mhall119|work> once
[16:50] <mhall119|work> no longer
[16:50] <ogra> but that someone got eaten up by tech issues he had to fix
[16:50] <mhall119|work> so how can we do this with no budget?
[16:51] <ogra> attract teachers that arent after getting tech support :)
[16:51] <highvoltage> alkisg: I have lots of respect for LaserJock and the work that he's done, but I don't think he's been helping us much the last few hours
[16:51] <alkisg> mhall119|work: the edubuntu bugsquad can help teachers correctly file their bugs, and notify upstream for them whenever appopriate
[16:51] <highvoltage> alkisg: I understand and agree with what he's saying about an educational focus, but I also don't think there's more we can do about it *right now*
[16:51] <mhall119|work> working over a teacher's shoulder is only going to work in-person
[16:51] <alkisg> highvoltage: I totally agree...
[16:52] <ogra> mhall119|work, right, a usability study of edubuntu would make an awesome thesis for a student i bet ;)
[16:52] <jbicha> I think LaserJock wishes he were still a major part of Edubuntu...
[16:52] <ogra> highvoltage, i totally agree ... you are all doing awesome *right now*
[16:53] <ogra> highvoltage, but you know Laser ... and he had alsway a bigger picture in mind
[16:53] <mhall119|work> I've only worked with teachers who's control doesn't extend beyond the walls of their classroom, and they're looking for 2 separate things: record-keeping tools that run on their computer, and educational games that run on the kid's computer(s)
[16:53] <ogra> mhall119|work, only games ?
[16:54] <ogra> thats sad
[16:54] <mhall119|work> for that setup, LDAP, LTSP and even a webserver are more than necessary
[16:54] <highvoltage> thanks ogra.
[16:54] <mhall119|work> ogra: s/games/applications/
[16:54] <ogra> right, teaching tools
[16:55] <highvoltage> I've also worked with many teachers who use Ubuntu in their schools. Most of them that I've worked with come from poorer backgrounds and they use LTSP
[16:55] <mhall119|work> most schools in my area have a few computers available in-class, and it's usually for undirected time, not actual lessons
[16:55] <ogra> mhall119|work, yeah, and thats sad
[16:55] <highvoltage> so for the teachers I've worked with, getting the system to work right from a technical perspective is vital for them in order to do their educating on top of it
[16:55] <mhall119|work> it is sad, but they don't have enough hardware to use them for actual lessons
[16:56] <ogra> highvoltage, yeah, i dont disagree and i wouldnt have put the amount of work into LTSP if i ever had ;)
[16:57] <mhall119|work> the other problem teachers around here face is that the school board's IT department strictly controls all the computers
[16:57] <ogra> highvoltage, for the same reason i was always reluctant to using a DVD :)
[16:57] <jbicha> mhall119|work: for record-keeping, what do you use?
[16:57] <jbicha> because supposedly, schooltool will be back in the repos for Lucid
[16:57] <mhall119|work> that staff doesn't have the resources to properly manage all the classroom computers, but is also unwilling to give up control over them, so they remain all but useless
[16:57] <ogra> thats even sadder
[16:58] <mhall119|work> jbicha: schooltool is nice, but most teachers I know would rather have it as a desktop app on their teacher computer, than as we webapp
[16:58] <ogra> but a political issue edubuntu cant do much about
[16:58] <mhall119|work> ogra: yes, that is the biggest challenge facing my district's use of open source
[16:58] <highvoltage> ogra: I guess we'll never agree about the dvd :), from what I've seen though it's way easier copying DVD's that trying to get packages for a minimum installed system if you don't have connectivity
[16:58] <jbicha> it's almost a desktop app, just one that you access via your webbrowser ;-)
[16:59] <ogra> highvoltage, sure ...
[16:59] <mhall119|work> ogra: but that is why LTDP + LDAP is so important, is it allows us to make the case for adoption by the IT departments, because it lets them still keep control over these computers, while making them useful too
[16:59] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: in many areas we have that here too, some teachers are even actively against using computers to give lessons
[16:59] <ogra> highvoltage, it has advantages and disadvantages :)
[16:59] <highvoltage> ogra: *nod*
[17:00] <ogra> mhall119|work, yes, i dont disagree with that LTSP is an important tool
[17:00] <mhall119|work> an LDAP + LTSP + NFS package would go a long way in convincing a district-wide adoption of edubuntu, which is about the only way to get any kind of adoption around here
[17:00] <ogra> mhall119|work, and unlike Laser i wouldnt decouple edubuntu from it at all
[17:00] <alkisg> mhall119|work: have you read about libpam_sshauth that sbalneav proposed? Would you need ldap if you already had that?
[17:01] <mhall119|work> alkisg: no, I haven't read it
[17:01] <mhall119|work> what is it?
[17:01] <alkisg> Do you know how LTSP authentication is done? (with ldm+ssh)?
[17:01] <jbicha> mhall119|work: is there any other edu record-keeping software you know of?
[17:01] <mhall119|work> alkisg: nope, I figured the clients used whatever auth backend was avialable on the server
[17:01] <ogra> mhall119|work, though note that i'm a passionate hater of LDAP ;) i think its useless for setups under 1000 users
[17:01] <alkisg> mhall119|work: ok, see this for starters: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/libpam-sshauth
[17:02] <mhall119|work> jbicha: I found another one a couple years ago, don't remember what it was called
[17:02] <mhall119|work> but it was also web based, and not as nice as school tool
[17:02] <alkisg> I think that that could server school districts with many hunderds of users, without having to learn how to use ldap...
[17:02] <mhall119|work> there is also the gcompris teacher tool
[17:02] <alkisg> *serve
[17:03] <mhall119|work> alkisg: so the client authenticates via ssh to the ltsp server, or some other server?
[17:04] <ogra> however your pam setup is configured
[17:04] <alkisg> Well I guess it could authenticate to any server
[17:04] <ogra> currently it authenticated only to the ssh server it wants to connect to
[17:04] <mhall119|work> okay, so this spec is just for a new ssh-based pam module that LTSP can use
[17:05] <alkisg> mhall119|work: nope, see the use cases
[17:05] <mhall119|work> but once LTSP is using some pam-based authentication, it can use any of them
[17:05] <ogra> wrong way round :)
[17:05] <ogra> ltsp goes on to use ssh to talk to the auth server
[17:06] <ogra> its just not bound to the ltsp server anymore
[17:06] <mhall119|work> okay, so ssh-auth first, then somethign else?
[17:06] <alkisg> That mechanism could be used by standalone workstations, that have nothing to do with LTSP....
[17:06] <mhall119|work> true
[17:06] <alkisg> And relying on simple ssh, user management would be simpler than managing LDAP
[17:06] <ogra> yeah
[17:06] <mhall119|work> but IT admins are generally familiar with directory-based user management
[17:06] <alkisg> I'd prefer that for my schools, instead of ldap/nfs/etc
[17:07] <mhall119|work> this would be good for smaller, in-class setups though
[17:07] <ogra> mhall119|work, teachers arent ;) you just said that before
[17:07] <alkisg> IT admins should go to #ubuntu-server, not to #edubuntu :)
[17:07] <highvoltage> especially since you'd just have to set up ssh on the server to authenticate against ldap/ad/etc
[17:07] <mhall119|work> ogra: I also said my teachers aren't going to be using LTSP
[17:08] <mhall119|work> heh, I just noticed there's a koala face on the inside of my 9.10 CD sleeve
[17:09] <mhall119|work> for getting edubuntu adopted district-wide, I think an authentication directory would be the most desired
[17:09] <mhall119|work> be it LDAP or AD
[17:10] <alkisg> I still wonder what does edubuntu have to do with that, though :)
[17:10] <mhall119|work> alkisg: the included apps and tools
[17:10] <alkisg> I think it should be something for #ubuntu-server
[17:10] <mhall119|work> schooltool would be especially good in this kind of setup, district-wide management in a central place
[17:10] <mhall119|work> same with moodle
[17:10] <alkisg> No, I mean if IT admins are going to set up edubuntu, then edubuntu shouldn't worry about making edirectories easy for teachers...
[17:11] <mhall119|work> no, but it should worry about making them easy for school board it admins
[17:11] <mhall119|work> and school administrators, who are assigning students to teachers
[17:11] <ogra> ubuntu-server should
[17:11] <mhall119|work> teachers don't generally have the ability to change which students they have
[17:11] <ogra> edubuntu should just use it
[17:12] <alkisg> Right
[17:12] <mhall119|work> ogra: I agree, but ubuntu-server doesn't
[17:12] <mhall119|work> at least not that I've seen
[17:12] <ogra> and if there are requirements from teachers, these should be channeled to ubuntu-server
[17:12] <alkisg> Edubuntu could help with that.
[17:12] <ogra> right
[17:12] <mhall119|work> and having a single isntall that does LDAP + LTSP + NFS + SchoolTool + Moodle + edu-games would be a sellable package
[17:13] <alkisg> So if I was to give some time in making authentication easier, I'd focus on smaller schools, with no IT admins.
[17:13] <ogra> mhall119|work, skolelinux does that
[17:13] <mhall119|work> alkisg: yes, which is why I said a while back that it would be good outside of schools
[17:13] <ogra> mhall119|work, but in a way thats not compatible with the rest of debian
[17:13] <ogra> so debian docs will fail if you want to enhance or change it
[17:14] <ogra> that why for edubuntu ubuntu-server should work out the theme
[17:14] <ogra> and edubuntu should just adopt it from there
[17:14] <mhall119|work> is there anything going on with ubuntu-server on that front?
[17:14] <ogra> sure
[17:14] <ogra> but not as fast as it should :)
[17:15] <ogra> but there are a bunch of LDAP specialists in the server team
[17:15] <ogra> and they surely know the desire to have its handling easier
[17:16] <mhall119|work> is there any coordination between the two projects?
[17:16] <ogra> not enough
[17:17] <mhall119|work> maybe we should encourage their efforts on that front
[17:17] <highvoltage> I shared a room with the lead developer of LDAP at UDS in Barcelona
[17:18] <highvoltage> seems that there is at least some good communication going on between ubuntu and ldap
[17:18] <mhall119|work> until then, I think the LiveDVD and LTSP integration is a good start, having schooltool and moddle installed and running by default would be too
[17:18] <mhall119|work> we can add links to those on the teacher's desktop
[17:18] <mhall119|work> or menus
[17:18] <highvoltage> it doesn't look like we'll have schooltool for lucid though
[17:19] <mhall119|work> I figured it would be too late in the game to start planning for lucid, I'm thinking lucid+1
[17:19] <highvoltage> *nod*
[17:19] <mhall119|work> being able to boot a classroom-wide system from the DVD would be great
[17:19] <highvoltage> having a server metapackage again for all the edu server-side stuff would be great for that
[17:21] <mhall119|work> does the DVD have separate boot options for teacher vs student live session?
[17:21]  * mhall119|work needs to get the DVD and play with it, I know
[17:21] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: hmm? no ot'
[17:21] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: hmm? no it's all the same
[17:22] <mhall119|work> it would be nice, I think
[17:23] <highvoltage> could be, yes
[17:23]  * mhall119|work needs more time in the day
[17:24] <alkisg> mhall119|work: what good is moodle on a live DVD?
[17:24] <ogra> get a plane and keep constantly flying :)
[17:24] <alkisg> With no users, no classes, nothing?
[17:24] <ogra> hopping timezones gets you a lot more hours
[17:24] <mhall119|work> alkisg: pre-loaded it with some lesson plans
[17:24] <alkisg> mhall119|work: multilingual?
[17:24] <mhall119|work> boot the other computers on the classroom network into the student session
[17:24] <mhall119|work> point them to the teacher's computer for moodle work
[17:24] <alkisg> It gets too complicated for a general purpose live CD :)
[17:25] <mhall119|work> alkisg: I suppose, I'm not sure what moodle's support for that is
[17:25] <mhall119|work> alkisg: it's not that complicated, and a DVD will have enough room
[17:25] <ogra> having as proper moodle install in the edubuntu-server option would already be a big hit
[17:25] <mhall119|work> just different startup scripts
[17:25] <alkisg> I'm not sure that teachers would want to use whatever lesson plan is on the DVD
[17:25] <alkisg> They'd most probably want to create their own plans...
[17:26] <mhall119|work> alkisg: no, but it would be something they can start playing with really quickly
[17:26] <mhall119|work> it's daunting looking at a blank canvas with tools you've never used before
[17:26] <alkisg> mhall119|work: that could be an "tasksel install moodle-something" task
[17:26] <mhall119|work> alkisg: I'd like to see it on the live session
[17:26] <ogra> alkisg, apt-get install edubuntu-server ;)
[17:26] <alkisg> I just don't think it's useful to have on a DVD... there are plenty of moodle sites around to see a demo
[17:27] <highvoltage> alkisg: we should probably link to them from somewhere
[17:27] <mhall119|work> alkisg: desktop users liked the livecd because it had everything they would use available to tinker with without causing any harm
[17:27] <mhall119|work> teachers should get teh same experience
[17:27] <alkisg> ogra: I'm not sure "edubuntu-server" is definable :) Every class/teacher/school needs different things, so I don't think a package is a good solution
[17:28] <mhall119|work> Evolution isn't very useful to have on a LiveCD, but it's there so people can see it, play with it, decide that they like it
[17:28]  * alkisg thinks it's there because people want it on their installed systems, not to try it out.
[17:28] <ogra> alkisg, it is already defined :) apt-cache show edubuntu-server
[17:28] <mhall119|work> which is why I think moodle + schooltool + some default lesson plans would be good for teachers to see what they can do with it, without having to do it first
[17:29] <alkisg> ogra, well, I have no use for postgressql, and I am a teacher :) So I don't think edubuntu-server is suitable for me... That's what I mean
[17:29] <ogra> alkisg, the idea of that package was to defiane a general set of edu server apps and depend on it
[17:29] <highvoltage> alkisg: you'll need a database server for moodle though
[17:29] <ogra> alkisg, if you use moodle you need any kind of DB
[17:29] <highvoltage> (if you want to run it lice)
[17:29] <highvoltage> *live
[17:30] <alkisg> highvoltage: right, I don't need moodle in my classrooms. We have more "global" moodle servers, country-wise.
[17:30] <alkisg> It's hard to fill up a moodle course with just the local teachers
[17:31] <ogra> mhall119|work, running moodle off a live DVD wouldnt really get any positive impression ... every tried to access a spinning CD on a live system with more than one user ? its darn slow
[17:31] <ogra> *ever
[17:31] <alkisg> What I'd like, and I don't know how much possible is that, is to provide an additional combo box in ubuiquity,
[17:31] <alkisg> something like the "select your country" box,
[17:31] <ogra> o was always reluctatnt to putting LTSP on the live CD as well because of this
[17:31] <alkisg> in which edubuntu-related teams would define their own sets of default apps,
[17:32] <ogra> but if you only demo one or two clients that might still work
[17:32] <mhall119|work> ogra: perhaphs, but computers are coming with multiple gigs of memory these days, so it may not be that bad
[17:32] <ogra> mhall119|work, that doesnt let the drive spin faster :)
[17:32] <alkisg> so e.g. Greek schools could select "I'm a _secondary_ greek school" and get whatever apps was defined for them by their team
[17:32] <mhall119|work> ogra: but it would let us prefetch more into cache
[17:34] <alkisg> That would also bring more people to edubuntu, to form those teams that define the sets of apps.
[17:34] <ogra> mhall119|work, sop you would develop a special kernel for the livecd ? or special app-wrappers for each and every app to achieve that ?
[17:35] <mhall119|work> no, but I'm pretty sure you could have them loaded into memory with some custom init scripts
[17:36] <ogra> how much customization would you want to do ? and who would maintain all that ?
[17:36] <alkisg> mhall119|work: why would people download a CD to tryout moodle, instead of seeing it live in a site in their web browsers? E.g. http://www.linux-for-education.org/index.php ?
[17:36] <mhall119|work> because maybe they can't reach the internet from their classroom?
[17:36] <ogra> note that a live system is usually as close to the install as possible because the resources to maintin any special casing are missing
[17:37] <mhall119|work> because maybe they want something to play with that isn't accessible to the rest of the world
[17:37] <alkisg> They could try it at home then. I don't think teachers try stuff _in_ their classrooms..
[17:37] <mhall119|work> ogra: there are plenty of custom scripts in the livesystem, it doesn't cause much more maintenance
[17:37] <mhall119|work> alkisg: I do
[17:38] <alkisg> mhall119|work: while teaching?!
[17:38] <mhall119|work> no
[17:38] <mhall119|work> but teachers aren't at school just during teaching hours
[17:38] <ogra> mhall119|work, there arent
[17:38] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: they do! things change the whole time which breaks those scripts
[17:38] <mhall119|work> at least not here in the USA they aren't
[17:38] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: like what?
[17:39] <mhall119|work> I'm talking about the casper scripts that create the live-session user and install ubiquity
[17:39] <ogra> mhall119|work, there is only casper ... no custom scripts in the livefs or something
[17:39] <ogra> mhall119|work, casper doesnt install a thing
[17:39] <mhall119|work> so we add another casper script
[17:39] <mhall119|work> ogra: I thought it did, I could be wrong
[17:39] <highvoltage> is this still about moodle or am I missing something?
[17:40] <ogra> highvoltage, somehow drifted away
[17:40] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: it's about making sure moodle doesn't have terrible performance if we included it in the live session
[17:40]  * ogra goes back to hack bootloaders 
[17:40]  * alkisg goes back to ltsp-build-client plugins for italc, ssh keys etc :D
[17:41]  * highvoltage goes back to trying to beat the wiki into shape
[17:41] <alkisg> Ooooh wiki day
[17:41] <highvoltage> mhall119|work: we can have a session for that for lucid+1 ;)
[17:41]  * mhall119|work goes back to UserDay lesson plan, school, work and Qimo
[17:41] <mhall119|work> highvoltage: I would like that, yes
[17:41] <highvoltage> yay less talking and more doing \o/
[17:41] <ogra> highvoltage, use a shovel :) i had good success with that :)
[17:42] <highvoltage> ogra: yes I had to bury plenty of pages today!
[17:42] <ogra> cool
[17:42] <ogra> anyway, really back to work, else we wont have an armel port in lucid :)
[17:44]  * mhall119|work has to right a report on the security threats faces by a gas station....
[17:44]  * mhall119|work has 11 hours to do so
[17:44] <mhall119|work> anyone here have experience knocking over convenience stores?
[17:45] <highvoltage> not on purpose, no
[17:46] <mhall119|work> lol
[17:47] <highvoltage> :)
[17:51] <highvoltage> ogra: do you still want https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuClassmatePC ?
[17:52] <highvoltage> (the information there doesn't seem particularly useful)
[17:59] <alkisg> Wow! long time no see... :) Hi nubae
[17:59] <nubae> hi alkisg
[17:59] <nubae> yeah took a break from the computer for a while
[17:59] <nubae> it was needed
[18:00] <alkisg> You did the right thing :)
[18:00] <nubae> now I'm invigorated and ready to get back to work
[18:00] <alkisg> I gave someone your email about some fat client installation, did he contact you?
[18:00] <nubae> yeah wasnt easy at first
[18:00] <nubae> but then it was like being free
[18:01] <nubae> I'll have to check my mail, when I say I stayed away from the computer that includes email
[18:01] <nubae> :-)
[18:01] <alkisg> Heh :)
[18:01] <alkisg> No it was for a paid job, so you'd remember it :)
[18:01] <nubae> I guess I'll have a couple thousand mails to go through
[18:01] <nubae> well, I didn't read my mail
[18:02] <nubae> but will do immedialty
[18:02] <nubae> since paid is good
[18:02] <nubae> was it a long time ago?
[18:02] <alkisg> Yup
[18:02] <alkisg> Last year :D
[18:02] <nubae> ah well.. maybe too late then
[18:02] <nubae> still, I'll check... could u give me his email so I can do a search?
[18:03] <highvoltage> nubae: \o/
[18:03] <alkisg> Hmmm I think I sent you one too, so check for mine
[18:03] <nubae> ok
[18:03] <nubae> greets highvoltage
[18:03] <highvoltage> hey nubae, good to see that things are going well
[18:04] <nubae> sorry for not being around, but needed some time away from all electronics
[18:04] <highvoltage> did you also wear a tinfoil hat?
[18:04]  * highvoltage ducks
[18:04] <nubae> lol
[18:04] <nubae> :-)
[18:05] <nubae> nah just watched lots of conspiracy documentaries
[18:06] <nubae> anyway, good thing is, my mind is clear now and I'm ready to dive back into work
[18:06] <nubae> hey, what do u know about suse moblin?
[18:06] <alkisg> Uhm, nothing?
[18:07] <nubae> seems to be suses answer to ubuntu mobile edition
[18:07] <nubae> made for netbooks
[18:07] <nubae> http://en.opensuse.org/Moblin
[18:08] <highvoltage> there'
[18:08] <highvoltage> there's an ubuntu moblin remix disc as well
[18:09] <nubae> oh
[18:09] <nubae> think its worth installing on a netbook
[18:09] <nubae> ?
[18:09] <nubae> I'm l9ooking for something usable
[18:10] <highvoltage> I don't know, I've been meaning to try it out since karmic has been released but haven't had the time
[18:10] <highvoltage> it looks really cool though
[18:10] <highvoltage> (moblin, that is)
[18:10] <nubae> I'll gove it a shot... needs to be built by hand though right?
[18:10] <nubae> there arent any isos I can see
[18:11] <highvoltage> nubae: I'll get you a link...
[18:11] <highvoltage> nubae: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/releases/9.10/release/
[18:12] <nubae> nice one thanks
[18:12] <mhall119|work> last I heard moblin was still pretty beta, but that was like 6 months ago
[18:12]  * mhall119|work leave for lunch
[18:12]  * mhall119|work leaves
[18:13] <nubae> I got an offer from razorfish in Madrid
[18:13] <nubae> I know the name from somewhere
[18:13] <nubae> think it was one of the big dot com bubble web companies
[18:14] <nubae> d9oes it ring a bell for u guys?
[18:14] <highvoltage> I don't recognise it
[18:14] <nubae> I thought I read an article about them in wired
[18:15] <nubae> they kind of contacted me out of the blue
[18:15] <nubae> though I'm more looking forward to a possible job in SA
[18:15] <nubae> with hilton theunisson
[18:15] <nubae> who I believe u know quite well highvoltage
[18:16] <highvoltage> nubae: yep, he told me about you
[18:16] <nubae> would be nice to see SA, though everyone tells me its too dangerous
[18:17] <nubae> though that all comes from rumours of people who have never even visited
[18:17] <nubae> so...
[18:17] <highvoltage> nubae: I was in Jo'burg for a while and I didn't like it, people live like prisoners in their own homes because they're too afraid of crime
[18:17] <nubae> yeah joburg doesnt sound to freindly
[18:18] <nubae> where do u live now, capetown?
[18:18] <highvoltage> nubae: cape town is quite different though. better climate, not the violent crimes... if you're a tourist you might get pick-pocketed but I guess it's like that in any city
[18:18] <highvoltage> yep
[18:18] <nubae> yep indeed, I got mugged pretty badly in Berlin
[18:19] <nubae> so...
[18:22] <nubae> how are job opportunities for open source work in SA?
[18:28] <Tm_T> SA?
[18:28] <nubae> south africa
[18:29] <Tm_T> roger
[18:36] <highvoltage> nubae: if you want to work for government or the corporates then Jo'burg/Pretoria has more linux work, but it's not for me
[18:36] <highvoltage> nubae: cape town has offices for larger companies that do lots of open source work, like Amazon and Yola, etc
[18:38] <nubae> not sure why, but I have a strange attraction to South Africa... maybe cause its the home origin of ubuntu... not sure... but I'm looking for opportunities over there, so if u hear of anything, please let me know...
[18:38] <highvoltage> I think technically England would be the home of Ubuntu, well the distribution at least :)
[18:39] <nubae> yeah :-)
[18:39] <nubae> but England is not the nicest of places to live
[18:39] <nubae> I lived in London for 3 years, and the fast paced miserable lifestyle wasnt for me
[18:40] <highvoltage> my father worked there for 2 years and also said people there were miserable
[18:40] <highvoltage> although he later worked in birmingham for a bit and said that people were better there
[19:21] <sbalneav> Of/win 9
[20:55] <alkisg> I want to automatically add the "edubuntu stable updates" ppa to my school chroots, to get useful updates. I'll need its key, but it doesn't yet have one. Will it be the same as the one in https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-dev/+archive/edubuntu-testing ?
[21:02] <HedgeMage> alkisg: I have no idea, but that's the sort of thing ogra usually knows.
[21:03] <alkisg> Nah it's too late for ogra now, I bet he's either on his couch watching TV or at some bar :D
[21:03] <alkisg> I guess stgraber would know, but I didn't want to distract him...
[21:08] <sbalneav> alkisg: Good one, not sure.
[21:09] <stgraber> alkisg: it won't
[21:10] <alkisg> Hmmm any idea when it will be available?
[21:10] <alkisg> If it'll be before the Lucid release, it'll be fine :)
[21:11] <alkisg> Heh, the key for "edubuntu-testing" is named "Launchpad Edubuntu Work in Progress"... I wonder how will the "Edubuntu Work in Progress" be named :D
[21:22] <highvoltage> ogra watches TV!?
[21:23]  * ogra is in a phone meeting :P
[21:23] <ogra> i'd love to the new season of lost started 1h ago :)
[21:23] <ogra> (luckily i have a PVR)
[21:24] <ogra> alkisg, it will be available around beta
[21:24] <alkisg> Danke ogra
[21:24] <ogra> :)
[21:24] <alkisg> I can send you the old seasons if you like!
[21:24] <ogra> nah
[21:25] <ogra> saeson 5 just started in germany ...
[21:25] <ogra> and when 6 starts in the US i'll actually be in portland and take a sneak preview ;)
[21:25] <alkisg> I've been watching the first 3 seasons while ironing :P but I haven't watch it since...
[21:58] <highvoltage> ironing!?
[22:00] <ogra> comes from irony ;)
[22:15] <highvoltage> heh
[22:16]  * alkisg will laugh in 10 years when you happy youngsters will have 3-4 kids each :D
[22:24] <highvoltage> 4 kids in 10 years!? eek
[22:24] <highvoltage> I don't think I have the energy
[22:24]  * highvoltage tries out moblik remix on mac mini instead