[00:31] stgraber: pongers [00:33] stgraber: I am around, gonna have dinner...bbiaf [00:39] Bug #510407 [00:39] Launchpad bug 510407 in edubuntu-meta "Please consider including Bible Study software" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/510407 [00:40] Hello, what is edubuntu-seed inclusion process? [00:40] I've filed bug against edubuntu-meta package and I got redirected to brainstorm..... [00:40] I'm the maintainer of the proposed packages in Debian & Ubuntu =) and I'd love to see them part of the edubuntu seeds [00:41] * xnox was under impression seed includes are on launchpad now..... [00:55] xnox: I think Montel perhaps was too hasty in rejecting that bug report [00:55] xnox: nonetheless, it deserves discussion on the edubuntu-devel mailing list [00:56] Ok =) I'll send a mail there [00:56] Can I post to it without being subscribed? [00:58] sure, but it'll be moderated [01:03] Hmmm. Ok I'll subscribe =) [01:07] crimsun: sent an email hopefully will get some feedback before the FF =) [01:10] Have a good day everyone [02:11] Evening all [03:08] Any edubuntu regulars or council members in here? [03:09] besides me and stgraber [03:09] ? [03:09] alkis will probably appear a bit later, highvoltage might be sleeping (he said he'd stay up late but maybe not this late). [03:09] Jordan doesn't seem to be around [03:09] nixternal: ? [03:12] yes [03:13] I'd be interested on your thoughts on the edubuntu-devel thread. [03:13] which one? let me guess, bible software? [03:14] yeah. See my response? [03:14] yeah, good response [03:15] I was saying to stgraber, there's currently countries, iran comes to mind, where owning a copy of the bible is illegal. [03:16] reply sent [03:16] If we ship it on the dvd, and someone downloads it, and gets arrested, I'd hate to have someone's incarceration on my conscience. Let alone what legal liability there may be for us. [03:17] which is interesting you brought that up...I just read about public flogging in Saudia Arabia for a teenage girl with a cell phone in school, 2 boys were caught reading the Christian Bible and were flogged as well...I would hate to be the reason for such a thing [03:17] And I can't see how we can legitimately say, "Yes, we're shipping the bible but we don't want to include an electronic copy of Dianetics" [03:18] I think it's a slippery slope that heads downhill very steeply [03:18] there used to be Ichthux which was a Christian distro based off of Kubuntu, of which I worked on with raphink in Kubuntu and Jordan even pitched in back then iirc...there was that other Ubuntu one, then a Muslim one, and even Satanic Ubuntu, which had a really cool looking GDM screen :) [03:19] speaking of Dianetics, I need to try and read through that [03:20] Yeah, I'm all in favour of Religious themed distros: but you download them *by choice*. [03:20] You know what you're getting [03:20] right [03:21] honestly, creating a metapackage for it (if one doesn't exist) is the better route [03:21] I might be a christian, but I am pretty open minded....I love open source, so I obviously believe in choice...I try to stay away from the nut job fundamentalists like Jordan :p [03:22] I would talk to raphink, as he was doing a lot of upstream work with christian software back in the day...I am willing to bet he would be done for a nice christian metapackage, which is honestly a good idea I think [03:22] crimsun: I think there are some metapackages, and that's a good suggestion for them that may strike a good balance. [03:23] But then it's on the archives, and can be installed or not by choice. [03:23] The dvd should, IMHO, remain secular to reach the widest audience. [03:25] an edubuntu-edu-chritian, edubuntu-edu-muslim, edubuntu-edu-zoroastrian metapackage would allow for easy post-install customization. [03:25] I wouldn't do that [03:25] I would do like a "christian-apps" or such metapackage [03:28] Also something that disturbed me a bit is that currently Edubuntu is being mostly used by relatively young children, so I'm not sure that including religious content (whatever the religion) is very appropriate. I'd consider having these packages installed with an "educational goals" only if it was a ALL or NOTHING kind of choice (as in, learning about religions). Other than that (but that clearly depends on where you've been raised I guess) re [03:30] * stgraber didn't remember he typed that much ... ;) [03:32] I just posted the sugestion of the metapackages to the list. [03:33] I think that's the way to go. [03:33] ok, so these would be meta-packages that'd only be in the archive, not be available as install task and won't be seeded on the DVD, right ? [03:35] right [03:36] So downloading and installing them is an act of Freedom of Religion, combined with Knowledge and Consent (one assumes). [03:36] I personally wouldn't name them "edubuntu-$religion", that isn't really being secular now is it :) [03:37] Well, if they're in the archive, and not shipped, they can be called whatever. I was trying to follow the sort-of "metapackages by grades" thing we have going. [03:37] though, I kind of understand the educational factor behind it, don't think we should even think about meddling with anything religion related [03:37] But now we're into implementation details. :) [03:37] right, but I would suggest "religion-$religion" or such [03:37] sure. [03:38] nixternal: +1 especially as they wouldn't have anything to do with Edubuntu, it's just a set of packages that one can install on top of edubuntu but also kubuntu, xubuntu, ... [03:38] yeah, that'd be better, prolly, since that way they'd work for Ubuntu/Kubutu/Xubuntu, etc/ [03:38] great minds... :) [03:40] stgraber: I'm gonna roll a new sabayon package right now, you gonna be around for another 1/2 hour? [03:40] sbalneav: sure [03:40] (if not there are two other core-dev present) [03:41] cool. [03:41] gimme two shakes of a lambs tail. [04:23] Ok, in my ppa should be a 2.29.5 build [04:23] tested [04:23] works [04:23] stgraber: [04:23] crimsun: [04:23] Whichever wants to wield their mighty mighty power, have at it :) [04:23] sbalneav: ok, I'll have a look [04:23] should have our "updated" packaging of adduser :) [04:24] No repeats from last time :) [04:24] hehe ;) [04:24] I don't know what's been going on with Xephyr, I've seen several updates for it, but it's wickedly fast now. [04:25] Smokin' Aces fast [04:26] diff looks good (quickly went through the whole diff, both upstream and packaging) [04:27] I'll be uploading that to archive in a minute or so [04:30] sbalneav: uploaded [04:31] * sbalneav hugs stgraber === highvoltage changed the topic of #edubuntu to: Edubuntu Wiki Day! See gobby.ubuntu.com doc: edubuntu-wiki-hugday | Edubuntu - the education version of Ubuntu | http://www.edubuntu.org | wiki: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu | 9.10 is released!, see http://www.edubuntu.org/news/9.10-release | Help out with bugs: http://tinyurl.com/EduBugs | LTSP questions? try #ltsp [14:39] ineternets way broken today :/ [14:40] ogra: I can't edit the blueprint, could you please update https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-profile-and-network-session-management so that the wiki page points to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/edubuntu-profile-session ? === highvolt1ge is now known as highvoltage [14:47] Happy Wiki Day! [14:56] hi jbicha :) [14:57] howdy, did you make it to Canada yet? [14:58] highvoltage, i cant [14:58] ogra: *nod* seems like it's not changable, I pinged #launchpad [14:58] jbicha: heh, getting the visa is a way too long process, so not yet [15:11] Morning all [15:12] morning sbalneav [15:13] Looks like post-lucid, ldap authentication's our big bugaboo :) [15:14] heh, now where have I heard that before :) [15:15] Of course, it's coming from Scott, who's gone on record as Edubuntu being an embarassment to FLOSS education, and has petitioned RocketMan to shut us down. [15:15] I always meant to tell him in a way he succeeded. [15:16] heh [15:16] However, we do need better ldap. Post lucid, I'll inject myself into the auth-team. [15:17] sbalneav: yeah having nice centralized authentication has been the high priority on so many wishlists forever now [15:17] I have the skills the manage the actual LDAP/Kerberos parts. [15:17] my problems are: [15:18] 1) doing it "on the cd" the way people want means doing things distro-ey and with preseeds and such [15:18] and that's not a process I understand. [15:19] 2) Some of the things we may want to do will come in direct opposition to what the server team wants, which means we'll be totally on our own for supporting it. [15:20] And currently, we've got like, what, 6 active devs? [15:20] How many of the rest of you know ldap inside and out? [15:20] ldap scares the living daylights out of me [15:21] highvoltage: I guess you'll have to get used to it ;) [15:22] sbalneav: I do LDAP + kerberos [15:22] yeah, so there's like 2 of us. :( [15:22] It's a biiiig task [15:23] stgraber: and you know how hard some LDAP problems can be to fix :) [15:23] sbalneav: yeah .. OpenLDAP isn't so bad though, it's a lot harder when you have to deal with eDirectory or AD ;) [15:24] stgraber: heh, I always accepted that I'll have to at some point :) [15:24] Well, and that's the problem. [15:25] THAT's what people are going to want us to deal with. [15:25] I don't even *have* AD, so I'm completely useless in that regard, all my work's against OpenLDAP. [15:26] yeah, and you simply can't make a tool that will work with all three of them [15:26] And people keep making noises about how goot 389 (formerly fedora directory server) is. [15:26] we have developped an account provisioning system at Revolution Linux which is/was used by the Canadian Space Agency (they stopped the project after a change in management) and it was a real pain to work with AD to add/remove/move accounts there [15:27] so we pretty much have a plugin for each kind of directory and one ldap.conf for each of them too as attributes don't have the same name ... [15:27] that and the fact that you absolutely need caching at least for eDirectory or you'll make it crash with relatively standard load [15:28] and that's why I hide under my bed when someone mentions authentication :) [15:29] yeah. LDAP's "non trivial" [15:29] and the use cases that Scott points out have all "simplified the problem" [15:29] Which, quite frankly, I think is the right approach. [15:30] Take Debian-edu [15:30] they pre-seed a schema [15:30] all config files are setup for that schema [15:30] and they offer two installation modes [15:30] 1) regular debian-edu ltsp server [15:31] Internal Server Error [15:31] yay I crashed the ubuntu wiki [15:31] oh it's back again :) [15:31] 2) an "NFS + LDAP + kerb" auth server [15:31] so, you install one box on your network this way [15:31] then just point all the rest of your boxes to the first one. [15:32] Everything "just works" [15:32] and if you say, "well, I want to auth off an AD server" [15:32] they basically just point you to some wiki pages and say "off you go, then" [15:32] So, they solve the 60% use case [15:32] option 2 sounds very useful to many people [15:33] and don't care about the 40% [15:33] So, they have something [15:33] Ubuntu keeps trying to solve the 100% case [15:33] having a pre-assembled NFS + LDAP + Kerb would be a wonderful solution for more than just schools [15:33] and after 3 years or so, there's not a lot to show for it. [15:33] mhall119|work: Yes, we KNOW :) [15:34] stgraber: what's OAPS? [15:34] My vote would be: [15:34] stgraber: just came across it on the bottem of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuMassMaintenance [15:34] 1) steal^H^H^H^Huse as much of what debian-edu does as we can [15:34] 2) ??? [15:34] 3) PROFIT :) [15:34] stgraber: oops, nevermind, I misread OpenRevolution for RevolutionLinux [15:35] Then we'd have SOMETHING. [15:36] The advantage is, as we improve/adapt debian-edu stuff, if we fix bugs, we can upstream it back to them. [15:37] I idle in debian-edu all the time, and anything I can do to foster more intercommunication with us and them I think's a win for both of us. [15:40] LaserJock may also have some history of previous attempts that may be useful [15:40] that's why I stopped in [15:40] of course! [15:41] LaserJock: sbalneav is attacking the authentication/LDAP issues again for Lucid+1 [15:41] I see [15:43] Well, I took a prettu hard look about 6 months ago at the debian-edu stuff [15:43] this is one of the things where I thought it'd be helpful to have a roadmap, some sort of strategy doc, etc. [15:44] to be able to look at the scope [15:44] agreed. [15:44] and what Edubuntu can and can't do and what it should and shouldn't do [15:44] We had one at one point, didn't we? [15:44] kinda [15:44] on the wikly? [15:44] I never liked it :-) [15:44] lol [15:44] it just didn't do it for me [15:45] I was missing something [15:45] part of it is, nobody really agrees on what Edubuntu *should* be [15:45] sbalneav: what happened to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuNetworkAuthServer ? [15:45] the scope just balloons too quickly [15:45] LaserJock: I agree! [15:46] so LDAP/auth is one of those things where it's at an interface between Server and Edubuntu [15:46] highvoltage: yeah, let's resurrect that page. [15:46] and the question is whether Edubuntu needs to have a secondary, cheerleading type role [15:46] or whether Edubuntu should lead the charge [15:47] [15:47] One of the biggest problems we've had, since day 1, is lots of people (present company excluded) TALKING about what they want edubuntu to be [15:48] I would include the present company ;-) [15:48] But nobody (present company excluded) Doing any freaking work to do the work. [15:48] LaserJock: Nah, you did your time. You worked. [15:49] Personally, I think it's time we just start saying "OK, you want feature X? Here's how we're going to do it" [15:49] I always attributed it to 1) unclear, unfocused goals/targets/roadmap and 2) lack of energy from the top [15:49] "Oh, don't like it that way? That's fine, then YOU do it!" [15:50] "Oh, you say you don't have time/programming skills to do it? Then get out of the way and let us get SOMETHING done!" [15:50] I always like being strategic about things [15:50] that's how other distro's are getting the problems solved. [15:50] so that everything we do is towards a specific, measurable goal [15:51] I think probably the biggest problem with Edubuntu is that the majority of users we hear from only care about LTSP [15:51] I'm all in favour of community. But if the community is mostly comprised of people saying "It sucks the way things are... why won't someone make it better", then lets get on with it. [15:51] as a whole, the development wanted Edubuntu to be more than just Ubuntu LTSP [15:52] LaserJock: Which should tell you something about the people using Edubuntu [15:52] they're using it to deploy LTSP [15:52] but if you look at the lists and what people ask questions about, it's 99% LTSP [15:52] sbalneav: I would love to be payed developing Edubuntu (: [15:52] I don't think it gives them much more than that, currently... what else? kdeedu + a theme? [15:52] alkisg: that's preciously the problem [15:53] any time we try to go away from LTSP people yell at us [15:53] (and from lucid a netbook option and live ltsp and some other things) [15:53] I'm with sbalneav on this, we should pack up some solutions and put them on the DVD for teachers [15:53] Not focus on upstream work, that's somebody else's work... [15:53] Tm_T: I'll gladly split half my earnings with you. [15:53] 0/2 = [15:53] but this is the problem [15:54] Edubuntu is not defined enough, not focused enough [15:54] sbalneav: indeed [15:54] LaserJock: you're a scientist, it's cause and effect. ltsp is currently one of the biggest features in edubuntu, so a large majority of users that currently use it does so because they have an interest in that [15:54] so you get sort of random looking contributions [15:54] LaserJock: you can't blame the users aboot that [15:54] highvoltage: I'm not blaming them [15:54] but I do wish we had room to grow [15:54] [15:54] highvoltage: even though they'll get exactly the same for 3GB less by using ubuntu alternate ;) [15:54] Gotta close my tags [15:55] Heh [15:55] stgraber: heh, indeed [15:55] my assumption from the beginning was that people wanted LTSP as tool to do education [15:55] not as an ends to itself [15:56] as time went on it basically looked to me like I was wrong [15:56] all people cared about was getting an LTSP server going [15:56] what happened afterward was not very important [15:56] Because that was their biggest problem of the moment. [15:56] that's I think what was hard for me [15:56] they've got 25 old boxes [15:56] I don't care (wonderful as it is) about LTSP [15:56] I don't use it, I probably won't ever professionally [15:57] so I wanted to focus on the actual educational stuff [15:57] either what you do after the LTSP server is up and running [15:57] or if you do 1:1 [15:57] or if you're just at home with a kids computer [15:58] and Edubuntu just never grew past getting LTSP off the ground [15:58] It certainly did. [15:58] It's just that, you can't USE edubuntu in a lab setting until you get the LTSP part going. [15:58] LaserJock: what is the "actual educational stuff" for you? [15:59] and the LTSP parts always the hardest part because it's the peice tht has to handle the most variables. [15:59] ok [15:59] but I've dealt with labs [15:59] even *buntu labs [15:59] and *none* of them used LTSP [15:59] but they sucked for education because there was not a lot of edu stuff there [16:00] LTSP is a hard part, but it's not the only part [16:00] no one ever said it was though [16:00] no, but clearly that's the emphasis [16:00] and that's what Edubuntu is known for [16:01] the only reason why we have some LTSP related tasks for Lucid is that our users demanded it [16:01] and any time we've ever said something like "let's not worry too much about LTSP and focus on education" people get upset [16:01] it doesn't have any kind of priority above anything else [16:01] I'm not saying that LTSP shouldn't be there or that it shouldn't be worked on [16:01] LaserJock: like who? [16:01] I think it's a key technology [16:01] I'm not sure what the problem is here. [16:02] You say 99% of our users want LTSP to work [16:02] Edubuntu currently doesn't have neither the developers nor the experience to develop educational software. [16:02] It shouldn't focus there. [16:02] We spend a lot of time making sure the infrastructure (including LTSP) works. [16:02] ok, well, I guess here's my point [16:02] aren't we just DOING WHAT PEOPLE WANT? :) [16:02] LaserJock: alkisg is right, and the people who understand education well is just not interested in contributing lots of their time [16:02] that's fine [16:03] but for instance, our moodle was completely broken for well over a year [16:03] we've not done anything with dynamic menus [16:03] highvoltage: I agree. So maybe in the future we could look at that "developing educational software" idea again, but I don't think it's a task we should be looking now. [16:03] nothing about making the UI more usable for kids [16:03] nothing with Sugar [16:04] it seems like historically LTSP + Edu is too much [16:04] Edubuntu == LTSPbuntu [16:04] LaserJock: 1) None of us knew about moodle, 2) I thought *YOU* were handling the dynamic menus, 3) We have no UI people, 4) We have no sugar people [16:04] in terms of what users are wanting to get out of it [16:04] LaserJock: mgariepy is doing great work for menus for lucid [16:04] sbalneav: exactly my point [16:05] So, what can we do with the *current* resources that we have? [16:05] LaserJock: mhall119|work has been getting involved with us, we're going to include as much of the Qimo4kids stuff as possible in the future, that does work on simplifying interface for younger users [16:05] LaserJock: So what's the solution? We don't currently have these people, so what? Do we stop doing what we can do? Shut the project down? [16:06] alkisg: not waste them [16:06] no [16:06] How are we WASTING resources?! [16:06] I don't know that you guys are [16:06] LaserJock: right. I'm helping stgraber + highvoltage on LTSP/fat clients now, so I'll get edubuntu Lucid to maybe 100 more schools. Is that a waste of time? [16:06] but it seems like things are sort of random [16:07] I know where you're coming from [16:07] you do what bits you're able to with what you've got [16:07] LaserJock: they're not random, we're just doing the best we can with the resources we currently have [16:07] highvoltage: Qimo's desktop uses XFCE, do you want to make your kid-friendly UI require a whole different DE? [16:08] mhall119|work: there used to be a meta-package called something like edubuntu-desktop-lite that was meant for xfce desktops, but I think no one maintained it anymore [16:08] we had it until XFCE got demoted [16:08] demoted? [16:09] to universe [16:09] well, so we keep talking about resources [16:09] Well, we don't care about that distinction anymore, since we can ship anything we want on the dvd. [16:09] I guess what I'm suggesting [16:09] mhall119|work: point is, if we make it easier for ubuntu users to use qimo, we're not wasting time, at least not imho [16:09] is that Edubuntu find itself [16:09] focus on what it wants to do go [16:09] *good [16:09] and then *get* resources [16:10] with the archive reorg main/universe destinction doesn't matter all that much anyway [16:10] okay then [16:10] one of the things that historically Edubuntu has done worse at than other derivs is getting involved with the other parts of Ubuntu [16:10] I'd be happy to have Qimo as an install option in Edubuntu [16:11] mhall119|work: yep, as we discussed before it would be nice shipping them on the Edubuntu dvd once the packages are available [16:11] right, packages.. [16:11] We're like 6 people. [16:11] do I need Lucid installed to make packages for Lucid? [16:11] mhall119|work: nope [16:11] mhall119|work: I could test them for you though [16:12] LaserJock: our strategy for lucid at least, is just to sort out our current biggest problems [16:12] Quite frankly, I've heard for 4+ years that edubuntu should "find iteself". [16:12] I'm tired of looking. [16:12] yep [16:13] I just want to fix things so they work. [16:13] LaserJock: our ISO image is *double* the size it needs to be, the dependencies to sort that out then becomes a high priority [16:13] highvoltage: ok, how big do you want it to be? [16:13] highvoltage: cool, I can test them in a VM too, just wasn't sure if I needed lucid dev tools to make them [16:13] Let me know when we know what/where we are. [16:13] LaserJock: we're going to drop the alternate installer, so it's basically going to halve in size [16:14] LaserJock: well, almost half in size [16:14] highvoltage: will the alternate installer work for Edubuntu's users? [16:14] highvoltage: why half? [16:14] LaserJock: because we're currently shipping everything twice on the DVD. we have a live cd and then everything again as .debs [16:14] because you have to include the packages differently between the live session and alternate install [16:14] highvoltage: right, but what size do you want to be? [16:15] sbalneav: what things do you want to fix? [16:15] LaserJock: oh, I don't care particularly about what size it is. I care that we're wasting half the space we're currently shipping [16:15] highvoltage: right, I see that as a problem [16:15] this is what I'm trying to say [16:16] if you have targets [16:16] when you reach them you stop, move on to another target having accomplished a goal [16:16] Edubuntu could fix a lot of things [16:16] but are they the right things [16:16] that make the impacts that Edubuntu is seeking to achieve [16:17] certainly it's a bit higher level, but it doesn't need to end up in RichEd land [16:17] We're only a few people, already having specific goals each [16:18] So there's not much time to give to more generic goals... [16:18] ... and that's why Edubuntu hasn't gotten very far in the last couple years [16:18] I just did the little things I cared about [16:18] LaserJock: it's gotten further in the last few months than it has in a *very* *very* long time [16:18] sbalneav did his things, stgraber, highvoltage, etc. [16:18] Right. People here are NOT intererested in fixing sugar. They left :) [16:19] highvoltage: has it thought? [16:19] I'm not questioning that great things are going on, don't get me wrong [16:19] LaserJock: yes [16:19] but what is the standard by which you're determining success here? [16:19] So, with the resources that we have left, I think we can bring people to edubuntu by preconfiguring/prepackaging some _existing_ solutions for schools. [16:19] alkisg: what is Edubuntu's "resources"? [16:19] LaserJock: I'm comparing what's been happening in the last few months to the last few years [16:20] LaserJock: a couple of our hours per day.... that's about it. [16:20] alkisg: are you sure? [16:20] LaserJock: I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the education focus, and setting good milestones, etc [16:21] LaserJock: do you think we have something else? (of course I'm not refering to release systems etc) [16:21] alkisg: I do [16:21] LaserJock: but I disagree with you that we're doing particularly bad right now, Lucid is by far going to be the best Edubuntu release ever [16:21] highvoltage: I'm not saying you're doing particularly bad, quite the opposite [16:21] but I'm not sure I'd call Lucid the best release ever [16:22] LaserJock: which one would you put above it? [16:22] nah, that was breezy [16:22] probably one of the early ones [16:22] ogra: you are biased :) [16:22] because it was going somewhere [16:22] it was more momentum and relative change [16:22] LaserJock: how are we not going somewhere with lucid? [16:22] highvoltage, pfft never :) [16:23] Lucid, while great, isn't revolutionary in any educational sense [16:23] LaserJock: did we really have more momentum then!? because it really doesn't feel so [16:23] right, and it's not meant to be yet [16:23] how has the educational app selection changed in Lucid? [16:23] LaserJock, probably not as a release but as a milestone for the developer community [16:23] LaserJock: I changed the seeds to include a bunch of stuff from universe that we never did before [16:23] there has never been as much development effort as currently is going on [16:24] and it seems to raise [16:24] highvoltage: and how much has that been testing? [16:24] LaserJock: what did edubuntu breezy offer that ubuntu breezy didn't offer? [16:24] alkisg: a focus on Education, IMO [16:24] alkisg, the edu apps and artwork [16:24] alkisg, since then the edu part didnt change much [16:24] LaserJock: I made the changes just before the alpha release (Ubuntu Alpha 2), stgraber will be sponsoring those changes this week so that we can test it next week [16:25] ogra: couldn't someone put the edu apps on an ubuntu installation? [16:25] LaserJock: I've been doing nothing but testing for the last 3 weeks. [16:25] alkisg, nope, no space [16:25] Isn't that what many people are doing currently? [16:25] ok, well, I guess I'm just not quite able to get this stuff across on IRC very well [16:25] alkisg: not on a CD image [16:25] ogra: no I meant on their PCs, AFTER installing the ubuntu cd... [16:25] it's not about so much the technical bits [16:25] LaserJock, i understand you and partially agree [16:25] I don't mean us testing [16:25] I mean, how do we know that Lucid's apps are the apps that teachers want [16:25] alkisg, sure that was possible even before edubuntu existed [16:26] and how do we know they work for teachers [16:26] ogra, that's why 95% of greek teachers do not use Edubuntu. It doesn't offer them anything they don't already have. [16:26] exactly! [16:26] that's what I'm after [16:26] So breezy was NOT a good release [16:26] LaserJock, what i see though and appreciate very much is that there *is* developer effort going on, it will take its time to actually get to the edu bits and reorganize [16:26] I was 100% of greek teachers using Edubuntu [16:26] But Lucid will offer them things NOT in Ubuntu [16:27] ogra: very true [16:27] and I want to be clear that I'm not knocking the current effort [16:27] i'd call Lucid the "release thats getting it back on track" [16:27] I'm very very pleased to see all the hard work [16:27] how does the project currently get input from teachers? [16:28] but there is definately room for improvement in the edu sector [16:28] LaserJock: you know as well as anyone that whatever we need to include needs to have the appropriate licensing, needs to be packaged, etc [16:28] mhall119|work: We have a mailing list, an irc, meetings, wiki pages, etc. [16:28] I guess what I'm not sure about is how Lucid will be received in the user community [16:28] LaserJock: with a shorter than usual feature freeze and with lots already to be done and tested, we just didn't have the time to focus tremendously on education for Lucid [16:28] sure [16:28] sbalneav: of those, only the mailing list is really accessible to a non-technical teacher [16:29] LaserJock: and that's less than ideal, it doesn't mean that it will be the same for lucid+1 [16:29] mhall119|work: ok [16:29] So the mailing list should be flooded with teachers giving suggestions, right? [16:29] LaserJock: if we get everything right for Lucid, then we could put lots of good focus towards educational value-add for Lucid+1 [16:29] or will you be fixing LTSP and LDAP? [16:30] sbalneav: is the mailing list email listed as a contact email on the edubuntu website? [16:30] Teachers should be FLOCKING to the mailing list telling us how testing's going, what apps they want to see, use cases, etc., right? [16:30] * sbalneav goes to look at the mailing list [16:30] Nope [16:30] LaserJock: also, the kind of big problems you talk about... I don't know of anyone who's really made tremendous strides like what you're talking about, not even K12LTSP who has been around for much longer [16:30] sbalneav: no, but they should be asking questions [16:30] And they are [16:30] about ltsp [16:30] highvoltage: which is why I thought Edubuntu had a chance [16:30] about ldap auth [16:30] right [16:31] and we're answering them [16:31] LaserJock: well there you go, if you don't believe that Edubuntu has any kind of "chance" then I'm probably just wasting time talking to you [16:31] sbalneav: cool, what about kid's apps? [16:31] so I can't help but wonder if Edubuntu needs to figure out if it's Education or LTSP, I'm not sure it can be great at both for the foreseeable future [16:31] What about them? [16:31] are you getting questions about them? [16:31]