[00:00] <crimsun> and, given that Kubuntu Lucid won't (at least as I was informed) ship with PA, it's a toss
[00:00] <_Groo_> https://edge.launchpad.net/~paulo-miguel-dias/
[00:01] <_Groo_> Riddell: thats pretty easy to work around... you can: 1- do 2 .desktop icons (one for PA and one for ALSA), or 2 - talk to the developer and ask for a kcm config option
[00:02] <_Groo_> i also did backport it for karmic, its working very well also
[00:02] <crimsun> full disclosure: I'd love for it to be enabled at some point, but I really don't think 10.04 is the right time for it
[00:03] <crimsun> and, because I'm primarily the focal point of "you broke sound, you suck", I /really/ don't need more headaches. Really.
[00:03]  * maco raises hand
[00:03] <maco> why not set hte env variable in kubuntu default settings and then let PA enablement be a "if you want to help us test it..." thing?
[00:04] <Riddell> I don't understand why it can't do the right thing based on whether or no pulseaudio is already running
[00:04] <crimsun> Riddell: checking will autospawn PA.
[00:04] <crimsun> Riddell: unless you do ps trickery
[00:05] <maco> doesnt PA autospawn when you start any sound app *anyway*
[00:05] <crimsun> maco: I'm sure Colin would be a amenable to a patch
[00:05] <crimsun> maco: no
[00:05] <maco> oh? when did this stop?
[00:05] <crimsun> it never was that way
[00:05] <maco> O_o
[00:05] <crimsun> it's completely dependent on configuration
[00:06] <maco> yes yes i kow THAT
[00:06] <maco> but in ubuntu the default config has autospawn enabled, yes?
[00:06] <crimsun> for alsa/pa apps, yes.
[00:06] <crimsun> note the glaring omission of OSS apps.
[00:07] <_Groo_> well anyway, its solid as a rock, and i already did the packages, riddell has my email.. if you guys want i can be the not oficial and peon helper mantainer of the thing..
[00:07] <crimsun> and, since we still load snd-*-oss (grrrr), it's a tosser
[00:07] <_Groo_> the only bugs i found where exactly the same bugs gnome has around PA...
[00:08] <crimsun> _Groo_: the identical set?
[00:08] <crimsun> _Groo_: Kubuntu has at least one more: configuring Phonon priorities.
[00:09] <_Groo_> crimsun: what i mean is... kmix from what i banged him is pretty solid.. when things break are PA fault not the kmix code
[00:09] <_Groo_> and by break o mean, OMG skype beta doesnt accept input.. which is the same if you use pavucontrol
[00:10] <_Groo_> or any other PA control
[00:10] <crimsun> _Groo_: but you're omitting one very important user experience bug (which I mentioned)
[00:10] <_Groo_> so, take a look, maybe put it in a meta package like kdemultimedia-pulseaudio (no guarantees attached)
[00:10] <_Groo_> crimsun: phonon priorities?
[00:11] <crimsun> _Groo_: profiles for audio outputs/inputs  (NOT the PA profiles)
[00:11] <_Groo_> well lucid is still 3 months away and the author is very approachable.. i believe if a kubuntu motu talks to him he would prob fix it asap
[00:12] <crimsun> _Groo_: it isn't a bug in Phonon or KMix
[00:12] <_Groo_> crimsun: but thats a phonon bug not exactly pa related
[00:12] <crimsun> it's how each distribution configures Phonon by default
[00:12] <crimsun> so, to make this work for Lucid, you need:
[00:13] <crimsun> * invert the env var so that it doesn't use PA view unless something is set
[00:13] <crimsun> * move the pulse option to the highest priority in Phonon's config
[00:14] <_Groo_> crimsun: isnt easier to put that option in a .desktop file?
[00:14]  * JontheEchidna notes that the PA KMix branch will have basically all-new strings, leaving us on our own for translations
[00:14] <crimsun> _Groo_: which option?
[00:14] <crimsun> _Groo_: the first is easy; the second is more difficult
[00:15] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: agreed, but we could add this package as experimental for lucid and dont enable it by default.. im not exactly defending it could/can be the default but it would be nice to HAVE in the repo
[00:15] <JontheEchidna> yeah, but it'll definitely have to be non-default
[00:15] <_Groo_> crimsun: the first, a .desktop should do.. the second.. hmm... prob would have to patch kdemultimedia to enable phonon by default
[00:15] <JontheEchidna> otherwise it'd be neat to play with :)
[00:16] <_Groo_> JontheEchidna: go play in my ppa :D both karmic and lucid :)
[00:16] <crimsun> _Groo_: you /don't/ want Phonon to use PA by default
[00:16] <_Groo_> crimsun: why? ;)
[00:16] <crimsun> _Groo_: otherwise you'll get the notification "pulse failed, falling back to ALSA"
[00:17] <_Groo_> crimsun: ??? i use PA as default and never seen that
[00:17] <crimsun> _Groo_: that's because you have PA installed.
[00:17] <crimsun> remember, PA /does not/ ship by default in Kubuntu
[00:18] <_Groo_> crimsun: ah... sorry... welll, then its a matter of putting some preinstall options in pa package so when it installs in kubuntu he would change the profiles
[00:19] <crimsun> _Groo_: that's /nasty/
[00:19] <_Groo_> crimsun: "a matter of " is an eufemism i know its a lot of work and prob a lot of anger :D
[00:19] <crimsun> _Groo_: 1. you can't depend on the presence of PA being installed because some people have PA installed but disabled
[00:20] <_Groo_> crimsun: that pa installed but disabled, thats a manual setting correct?
[00:21] <crimsun> _Groo_: yes, but it must be honored
[00:21] <crimsun> you don't want stuff "randomly" autospawning
[00:22] <_Groo_> crimsun: if pa installed AND if pa autospawingn disable do kmix alsa .desktop... if pa installed and enabled do kmix pa .desktop
[00:24] <_Groo_> crimsun: again... overly simplified.. but we cant avoid PA ad infinitum... eventually well have to cope with it...
[00:26] <crimsun> _Groo_: it's really quite more complicated, because you can't predict what the user might do
[00:26] <_Groo_> crimsun: well if you cant predict something, how can you honor it?
[00:26] <crimsun> _Groo_: and it's precisely this integration mess that has plagued Ubuntu and (rightfully) earned the wrath of various upstreams
[00:27] <crimsun> _Groo_: you don't; you enforce a policy. In Ubuntu, it's "you will use PA".
[00:27] <_Groo_> crimsun: but these would be experimental packages... if you install something experimental... fill in the gap
[00:27] <crimsun> _Groo_: it's incredibly easy to field experimental packages, but I still have to address the incoming bugs.
[00:28] <_Groo_> crimsun: aka not LTS, nut guaranteed, not for the faint of earth.. just put them there so we can test it and evetunally see if PA is up the task for kubuntu
[00:29] <crimsun> again, I'm all for enabling PA, but I'd really like to avoid the pain of having Kubuntu users completely fail at their audio experience
[00:29] <_Groo_> crimsun: agreed, isnt that what ubuntu-bugs and kde bug reporter is for? based on the tags... automatic answer
[00:29] <crimsun> _Groo_: from a PPA?
[00:29] <_Groo_> crimsun: no, from multiverse for ex...
[00:30] <crimsun> _Groo_: I think you're missing my point, which is that I /do/ want good bug reports, but getting them from a PPA is not there yet.
[00:30] <_Groo_> aptitude install kdemultimedia-pulseaudio-4.4, opens kde dialog (WARNING THIS PACKAGES ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY KUBUNTU PROJECT, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK)
[00:31] <_Groo_> crimsun: thats why i was saying to include them in multiverse or universe
[00:31] <_Groo_> not suported/experimental but inside oficial so we can use ubuntu-bugs for ex
[00:31] <crimsun> _Groo_: it makes no sense licence-wise to do anything but main
[00:32] <_Groo_> crimsun: agreed, but main is for stable/test and true right? not to mention translations problems...
[00:32] <_Groo_> crimsun: and i really dont believe the core gods would allow it anyway :D
[00:32] <crimsun> _Groo_: MOTU doesn't decide it, neither does core.
[00:33] <crimsun> this is strictly a Kubuntu-dev decision
[00:34] <_Groo_> crimsun: ah ok... nice to know.. i dont know the internals of the decision process
[00:35] <_Groo_> crimsun: but we are running in circles.. what do you think we/ you guys should/could do?
[00:35] <crimsun> _Groo_: see above
[00:35] <Lex79> lol
[00:35] <crimsun> 22 minutes ago
[00:36] <_Groo_> ppa?
[00:37] <crimsun> _Groo_: yes, along with the two points I made
[00:38] <_Groo_> crimsun: not ideal, but we do what we can do :)
[00:44] <crimsun> _Groo_: yes, that is the story of my FOSS life
[00:45] <_Groo_> crimsun: lol i just remember of XKCD of last week.. the one about the G point, lol
[00:46] <_Groo_> did you or didnt you found the G spot? maam, this is a kubuntu-devel forum, you are probabyl mistaken...but.... no...:( auehauheuaheuaheuaeh
[00:50]  * _Groo_ hoped for some laughts...
[00:50] <crimsun> it's rather inappropriate for this channel, as you alluded to.
[00:55]  * _Groo_ scrambles for his log where someone somewhere someday told in here this was a very open, happy, peace loving channel
[00:55] <_Groo_> anyway, isnt the ppa build suposed to first see the local files for deps and then see the repos? i published debhelper ported from lucid and yet ktorrent insisnt in using the debhelper from the repo instead
[00:57] <tsimpson> the PPA should use whatever the highest published version is
[00:58] <_Groo_> tsimpson: that woould be my published file for karmic, debhelper 7.4.10ubuntu1
[00:58] <_Groo_> since the karmic one is 7.3.x
[00:58] <_Groo_> but its still downloading 7.3 when i retry the build
[00:58] <_Groo_> in ubuntu components in ppa settings, should i put allow all components or the second option?
[00:59] <tsimpson> is the binary published in the ppa? (uploaded to ppa.launchpad.net)
[01:00] <_Groo_> tsimpson: of course, like i said its built and published in the same ppa, from what i recall, the build system first checks the ppa for matches before going for the main repos
[01:01] <tsimpson> it doesn't check anything before anything else, it just adds your ppa to the sources it looks in and lets apt do the rest
[01:03] <_Groo_> tsimpson: ok thanks
[03:22] <prefrontal> can I network upgrade to lucid alpha?
[03:29] <crimsun> yes
[03:30] <prefrontal> thanks
[03:44] <prefrontal> well, I installed lucid alpha 2 and then upgraded all the packages. upgrading them was a mistake - now my taskbar is missing.
[10:16] <brmassa> guys, about project TIMELORD, is there anything i can help?
[10:16] <dpm> hey Riddell, good morning. I see that in the Lucid translations imports queue there are two kde.pot templates from qt4-x11 uploaded a while ago -> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+imports?field.filter_status=NEEDS_REVIEW&field.filter_extension=pot&batch=90. Before I investigate further, could it be that they were the KDE3 template versions, as in the templates we were talking about yesterday?
[10:35] <markey> brmassa: if you are interested in Timelord, best talk to apachelogger
[10:35] <markey> he initiated the project
[10:35] <markey> but you could also ask on the mailing list, kubuntu-devel
[10:35] <brmassa> markey: hmmm
[10:36] <brmassa> markey: thanks.
[10:36] <brmassa> markey: do you know if this project is moving?
[10:36] <markey> as far as I know, it's moving slowly
[10:36] <markey> (lack of manpower)
[10:36] <markey> so, any help is probably welcome
[10:37] <markey> (but I can't really speak for it, apachelogger knows more)
[10:37] <brmassa> markey: i understand.
[10:37] <brmassa> markey: i really think a sprint should be done.
[10:38] <brmassa> markey: however, the description of timelord project is not precise on what is actulally needed.
[10:38] <brmassa> markey: well... i guess ill mail him
[10:38] <markey> that could be nice, yes :)
[10:39] <markey> personally I'd also wish that Timelord could move much faster
[10:39] <markey> Kubuntu has (like most projects) a bit lack of manpower, but everyone can help a bit :)
[10:39] <markey> (I should mention: I'm not a member of Kubuntu, so take all this with a grain of salt)
[10:40] <brmassa> markey: yep. the point is: HOW to aquire more people and WHAT they can do exactly
[10:40] <markey> yes
[10:40] <brmassa> markey: ok
[10:45] <Riddell> dpm: kdeqt.po isn't the same as kde.po
[10:45] <Riddell> dpm: that's the translations from qt used by KDE
[10:57] <dpm> ok, thanks Riddell
[10:57] <Riddell> ** testers needed for RC 2 on karmic and lucid
[10:57] <Tm_T> no PPC builds, I presume
[10:58] <Riddell> no
[10:59] <dpm> Riddell, ah, jtv has seen what the problem was (wrong path to the template in LP). It's now sorted
[11:00] <jussi01> Riddell: rc2 has been in the ppa for a while now, no?
[11:01] <Riddell> jussi01: it's in the ninjas PPA if you have that
[11:05] <markey> Riddell: any news on the USB issues?
[11:09] <Lex79> Riddell: I can refresh Phonon patch today and release Qt 4.6.1 package, can you wait that before uploading KDE ?
[11:11] <Riddell> markey: no reply from the guy I was hoping to get one from :(  I'll send a post to ubuntu-devel
[11:11] <Riddell> Lex79: yes, we'll not upload RC 2 until tomorrow evening
[11:11] <Lex79> ok
[11:11] <brmassa> guys, im not familiar with other *ubuntu projects but all of them have a different visual identity from Ubuntu or its only Kubuntu?
[11:12] <Riddell> some do, some don't
[11:13] <markey> brmassa: in short: Kubuntu looks nice. the rest, not so much
[11:13] <brmassa> Riddell: is there any recommendation from Canonical to not use the Ubuntu identity or its a decision from the community?
[11:15] <brmassa> i ask because it seems that not only we are duplicating the efforts but also we are not taking the advantage of being so close to a imensively popular project...
[11:15] <brmassa> that is Ubuntu...
[11:16] <tseliot> Riddell: will RC 2 come with a new SIP?
[11:16] <brmassa> markey: i know. but on the marketing perspective, its not a clever choice to isolate
[11:18] <Riddell> tseliot: I have SIP and pyqt done, kdebindings still doesn't compile but the pykde part does so maybe I can work out how to ignore the part which doesn't compile and get it in
[11:19] <tseliot> Riddell: that would be great
[11:19] <Riddell> brmassa: Kubuntu is pretty obviously linked to the Ubuntu project
[11:20] <jussi01> Riddell: is it going to hit the beta ppa?
[11:22] <markey> brmassa: much has been said and talked about these things, but in the end, the powers above decide
[11:22] <markey> brmassa: I guess you catch my drift
[11:23] <Riddell> jussi01: once its been tested and gets released by KDE
[11:23] <jussi01> Riddell: ahh, ok :)
[11:23]  * jussi01 wont install it on the work pc this time... maybe at home :P
[11:23] <brmassa> Riddell: well... from who is inside, it seems to. but from who is a Ubuntu user (or even from further worlds), its different look and feel is only a higher barrier...
[11:24] <brmassa> markey: ok i got it. But to me, its like Apple launching a super computer that is plain ugly. it might be Apple, but it doesnt look like one
[11:26] <brmassa> markey: be linked to Ubuntu project just by code and some infrastructure is very superficial. The whole brand power is under used.
[11:28] <Riddell> better to be our own (linked) brand than just a confusing choice on the ubuntu website in my opinion
[11:28] <sebas> brmassa: kubuntu decides to follow the KDE brand more than the ubuntu one
[11:29] <sebas> calling it "not a clever marketing choice" is IMO short-sighted
[11:29] <sebas> One problem of aligning with Ubuntu is that Ubuntu is a brand for a complete desktop system
[11:30] <sebas> it's not an umbrella brand you could put under systems under (even if people try)
[11:30] <sebas> so putting kubuntu more closely under ubuntu's umbrella simply does not work
[11:31] <sebas> That is actually one of the things the new KDE branding scheme attempts to fix
[11:31] <sebas> separating umbrella and sub-brands
[11:31] <brmassa> sebas: hmmm... im not sure. it seems that the hype around Ubuntu is still higher that the KDE.
[11:31] <sebas> brmassa: not the point
[11:32] <brmassa> sebas: i think we are a Ubuntu using KDE and not KDE using Ubuntu infra...
[11:32] <brmassa> sebas: at least on the marketing perspective.
[11:32] <sebas> brmassa: so where is Ubuntu's marketing effort even considering Kubuntu, or has been?
[11:33] <sebas> And where would it fit in?
[11:33] <sebas> (and I'm not aiming at a step-child relationship)
[11:33] <sebas> I've actually pointed that out during UDS in Paris already
[11:34] <sebas> just trying to piggyback on Ubuntu's success is a recipe for failure
[11:35] <brmassa> sebas: i dont know if claiming a whole new identity is better than get a bit of Ubuntu popularity by copying its moves (at least until Kubuntu base is significantly bigger)
[11:36] <markey> brmassa: I personally tend to agree with some of the things you said (I guess). but then, Ubuntu is not fully community steered. there is a boss somewhere who decides
[11:36] <markey> but, let's not open that can of worms (again)
[11:37] <markey> cause it is a big one
[11:37] <sebas> it's one giant misunderstanding
[11:37] <sebas> you don't become more sucessful by aligning yourself with a competing product more closely
[11:37] <brmassa> sebas: for me, its like Google's Orkut. Instead using the most popular brand, the social networked created by the employee called Orkut used a total new brand style. The result is show in numbers
[11:38] <sebas> There is no point for Ubuntu to push Kubuntu, so they won't. Hence: don't assume it'll happen, it didn't.
[11:39] <brmassa> sebas: ive never assumed that Canonical or Ubuntu community will ever support...
[11:39] <sebas> weird to compare this, as it's really unrelated
[11:39] <sebas> brmassa: it might work if Canonical or Ubuntu had a clear strategy for marketing separate brands, but they don't
[11:39] <sebas> because Ubuntu (OS) == Ubuntu (ecosystem)
[11:40] <sebas> you cannot overcome this, even less with a strong brand (nobody will want to change it)
[11:40] <sebas> Kubuntu will need to build up success based on its own merits
[11:41] <brmassa> sebas: what im saying its WE can use the brand. I guess they wont complain much if we smothly copy their visual identity...
[11:41] <sebas> a first step would be to work on the terrible reputation we got lately
[11:41] <sebas> brmassa: you mean brown? :D
[11:41] <Nightrose> brmassa: why do you think copying will make us more successful?
[11:41] <Nightrose> it most often does not
[11:41] <Nightrose> and is very unlikely in kubuntu's case
[11:41]  * sebas notes that the visual identity of Ubuntu is really not that great
[11:43] <brmassa> sebas: Ubuntu brown'ness suchs. however, WE think this. people still use it more. we have to think as a NON Kubuntu user.
[11:43] <sebas> I'm thinking as a marketing professional here, separating facts and myth
[11:43] <Nightrose> an you think they use it because of the brown? ;-)
[11:43] <Nightrose> i doubt it very much
[11:44] <sebas> besides, brown doesn't work for what Kubuntu offers
[11:44] <brmassa> sebas: what Kubuntu offers?
[11:45] <sebas> more propellerhead than ubuntu, for one
[11:45] <brmassa> i used to think that all "semi-official" *ubuntu distros were like brothers...
[11:45] <sebas> seriously, you can go all wild on colours, but as soon as every second user out there shouts "Kubuntu sucks, big time", your time is better invested elsewhere
[11:45] <sebas> For example translations
[11:46] <brmassa> but they are too different from each other to appear so.
[11:46] <sebas> German translations just plain sucked last time I tried
[11:46] <sebas> installed opensuse, tada, perfectly translated
[11:46] <sebas> it's also ubuntu screwing up
[11:46] <sebas> I've updated from jaunty to karmic on 4 machines, 3 wouldn't boot or start X afterwards
[11:47] <brmassa> sebas: :P
[11:47] <sebas> that hurts the public perception a lot more than not using brown for the wallpaper
[11:47] <brmassa> sebas: yep. i agree
[11:47] <sebas> so timelord is quite right here
[11:47] <sebas> and changing colors to match ubuntu more closely will make it stand in its shadow even more
[11:48] <dpm> sebas, it just does not help saying "translations just plain sucked" - where did they exactly fail for you? Which Kubuntu version were you using? Without more details it's impossible to improve
[11:48] <sebas> dpm: half of what's translated upstream wasn't in kubuntu
[11:48] <sebas> I didn't check the last version, so reporting it is quite useless
[11:48] <brmassa> sebas: we are not competing against Ubuntu, so it doesnt matter to be just a shadow
[11:48] <sebas> the experience in non-english was just awful though, so I installed opensuse where it's fine
[11:48] <sebas> brmassa: of course we do
[11:49] <sebas> denying that is ... odd
[11:49] <dpm> sebas, "half of what's translated upstream" is also not very detailed. I'd recommend you to try Karmic, where we put quite a lot of effort in improving translations
[11:49] <sebas> dpm: honestly, there's enough evidence around of bad translations, I'm not filing bugreports here just pointing out a structural problem
[11:50] <sebas> and I'm not trying karmic as that machine is installed and works just perfectly fine now
[11:50] <brmassa> sebas: nope. we are against OpenSUSE, that uses KDE by default AND uses a complete new infrastructure that doesnt benefit us...
[11:50] <sebas> brmassa: that, too
[11:50] <dpm> sebas, as I said, until we are pointed to real evidence we cannot do anything to solve it
[11:50] <brmassa> sebas: and other distros that, once they are full of followers, we have very little from it
[11:50] <sebas> dpm: I don't care about real evidence here, just read teh internetz
[11:51] <sebas> I pointed it out as an example for a bad user experience that burnt me and drove me away
[11:51] <dpm> sebas, I'm just concerned about not spreading FUD against translations without evidence
[11:51] <sebas> I've seen the same with people installing the gnome desktop instead of kubuntu because of poor choices for kubuntu
[11:51] <brmassa> sebas: If Ubuntu one day rules the world, we will get much more from it than opensuse, mepis, red hat or another kde distro....
[11:51] <sebas> like shipping not working networkmanager stuff
[11:52] <sebas> brmassa: not the point, you don't choose your competitors, you find your niche and grow in it
[11:52] <sebas> it's not a game of "who has the biggest potential, so who should we copy?"
[11:52] <sebas> dpm: I'm actually discussing the reasons for that
[11:53] <brmassa> sebas: yep. but its better to make a huge and deep partnership with Ubuntu, living in its shadow, than compete alone in the battefield against.... Novell and RedHat
[11:53] <sebas> it's not new that the translation process in kubuntu has been screwed up for years, and that this has serious consequences
[11:53] <sebas> brmassa: except that it's not either, or
[11:54] <brmassa> sebas: copying Ubuntu is not the BEST option, but the most strategical one
[11:54] <sebas> it's also not about copying a visual identity, it's building a brand, a perception, a concept
[11:54] <sebas> ubuntu has that
[11:54] <sebas> doesn't mean it fits kubuntu, there's a reason they're different beasts
[11:54] <sebas> that "what is Kubuntu?", the vision if you will is missing
[11:55] <dpm> sebas, we've put quite a lot of effort in solving translations issues in the last cycle. I'd recommend you to try Karmic and to follow kubuntu-devel and ubuntu-translators if you are interested
[11:55] <sebas> here's a shot at it "The ease of ubuntu with the power of KDE"
[11:55] <sebas> dpm: that's the thing, I'm not interested
[11:55] <brmassa> sebas: hmmmm for me its like launching a iPhone with a complete different look and feel from Apple other products just to prove its a new vision... Its wasting a huge marketing potential
[11:55] <sebas> I need that to work once every two years, and I don't care in between
[11:56] <sebas> brmassa: it's not an iphone though
[11:56] <sebas> everything that's visible is different from ubuntu
[11:56] <dpm> sebas, fair enough, I think if you are not interested we can stop discussing it then
[11:56] <sebas> dpm: yep, we can
[11:57] <sebas> I get your frustration, someone saying that it sucks and then not listening that it's all better now
[11:57] <brmassa> dpm: sorry guys, i was just discussing... rising some thoughts
[11:57] <sebas> was never the point though
[11:57] <dpm> brmassa, no need to apologise :-)
[12:16] <ScottK> dpm: Do you have any data yet on how Lucid translations are doing?
[12:23] <Riddell> ScottK, dpm: danillo said he was working on the reporting tool, I havn't heard back from him
[12:24] <ScottK> OK.  It's getting close (or even past time) when we said we'd take a decision about this.
[12:24] <Riddell> right
[12:25] <ScottK> I haven't heard any complaints about translations in the PPAs or backports when we provide upstream translations directly.
[12:26] <ScottK> Absence some evidence, I think it's reasonably clear what the safest course is.
[12:58] <dpm> ScottK, Riddell, sorry for the delay, I was having lunch
[12:59] <Riddell> it's danilo we're after, we need to steal his lunch
[12:59] <dpm> Riddell, yeah :P but let me give you an update
[13:04] <dpm> ScottK, Riddell, ScottK, we don't have any data on how the translations in Lucid are doing yet. Translations in LP will be exposed for translation on the 4th Feb -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule. We've got the upstream translations from Karmic and Lucid at http://people.canonical.com/~dpm/kde-l10n/ and we're going to compare them with those from Rosetta. Danilo is developing the comparison tool, and AFAIK yesterday was working on it
[13:05] <dpm> the translations imports queue is clear on Kubuntu translations
[13:05] <dpm> and I've done all the necessary approvals and renames
[13:05] <dpm> but that was just yesterday as well, so it might take a week or so
[13:05] <dpm> for the language packs to include all Kubuntu translations in Lucid
[13:07] <sebas> dpm: thinking of it, I might actually try the translations for kubuntu shortly
[13:07] <sebas> how complete is 4.4 already?
[13:07] <dpm> sebas, \o/ :-)
[13:07] <sebas> I need to make a couple of screenshots for a German magazine, they asked for German screenshots :>
[13:08] <dpm> sebas, IIRC upstream 4.4 translations should be complete, let me check...
[13:08] <Riddell> sebas: in lucid they're not, as he says launchpad translations isn't open for lucid yet, but our 4.4 RC 1 archive has the kde-l10n packages in unmodified so no problems there
[13:08] <sebas> alright, cool
[13:08] <dpm> yep, as Riddell said
[13:08] <sebas> installing them from svn is a bit of a pain, since the i18n stuff tends to be huuuuuuuge
[13:08] <sebas> I'm running karmic, so no problem :)
[13:09] <ScottK> dpm: Then I don't understand why you all committed to having data for us by the Alpha 2 milestone.
[13:09] <Riddell> I'll be doing kde-l10n for RC 2 in our secret ninjas archive today
[13:09] <ScottK> (at UDS)
[13:10] <ScottK> dpm: When will there be some data to make a comparison?
[13:12] <dpm> ScottK, on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Events/UDS/Lucid/KubuntuTranslationsFeedback and https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Specs/LucidTranslations we mentioned end of January, IIRC. I'll ping danilo to see when we can have the data
[13:43] <Quintasan> \o
[13:44] <ulysses> o/
[13:47] <Quintasan> Hmm, meeting today. I'd better do my homework now
[13:48] <Quintasan> or not do it at all :P
[13:48] <ulysses> no more exam, no lessons, no homeworks now \o/
[13:49] <Quintasan> hmm, in kvm plasma ain't starting for me :/
[13:50] <Quintasan> aaha
[13:50] <Quintasan> it starts two times :DD
[13:56] <JohnFlux> Hey all.  Could Qt 4.6.0 be upgraded to 4.6.1 please?  4.6.0 was a bad release, with speed problems and crashes.
[13:57] <JohnFlux> It's the reason why apps like konversation use up 100% CPU and why many KDE apps crash when logging out (e.g. KNetworkManager)
[13:57] <Quintasan> hmm certainly Konversation crashes often
[13:57] <ScottK> JohnFlux: We need to get an updated phonon patch first, but it's a definite priority.
[13:57] <Quintasan> I thought it was KDE's fault
[13:58] <JohnFlux> Quintasan: yeah, it's a reason why KUbuntu 9.10 looked so bad
[13:58] <JohnFlux> apps crashing continually
[13:58] <JohnFlux> it's a problem with deleting non-existant input methods :)
[13:58] <ScottK> Odd, I almost never have crashes.
[13:59] <JohnFlux> ScottK: do you get crashes when logging out?
[13:59] <ScottK> Nope
[13:59] <JohnFlux> I _think_ it might only be triggered if you're running scim or ibus
[13:59] <JohnFlux> i.e. some input method
[13:59] <Quintasan> oh, I need to figure the IM thingy within Qt :/
[13:59] <ScottK> Could be.  I'm not running either of those.
[13:59] <Lex79> ScottK: I refreshed the patch, I'm building Qt right now :)
[13:59] <Quintasan> JohnFlux: it crashes on logut even without IBus
[13:59] <ScottK> Lex79: Excellent.
[13:59] <JohnFlux> Quintasan: or skim/scim etc?
[13:59] <Quintasan> logout even.
[13:59] <ScottK> Quintasan: Which crashes?
[14:00] <Quintasan> JohnFlux: no skim, only IBus daemon and anthy
[14:00] <Quintasan> ScottK: Konversation, at least for me, each logout it crashes
[14:00] <ScottK> Oh.
[14:00] <JohnFlux> Quintasan: but you tested without ibus?
[14:01] <ScottK> I've found quassel very stable with both Karmic and Lucid so far.
[14:01] <Quintasan> JohnFlux: with same result :)
[14:01] <ScottK> IME Karmic is more stable than Jaunty is more stable than Intrepid.
[14:01] <Quintasan> and the best thing is that our Qt has XIM selected by default though I think it is not installed
[14:07] <Lex79> ScottK: Qt ftbs, http://pastebin.ca/1760186 sandsmark said we need an update patch and he thinks he will have some more time today, we hope :)
[14:19] <jussi01> JohnFlux: I get those annoying logout crashes
[14:21] <ScottK> Lex79: OK.  I expected we'd have to wait for him.
[15:07] <Riddell> http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_helena_kde_whatsnew.php  new Kubuntu based release
[15:10] <ScottK> I hear lots of complaints from Debian that Ubuntu doesn't contribute enough back upstream to them that are (mostly) bogus IMO.  Do we get stuff from Mint people?
[15:11] <jussi01> ScottK: not that I know of
[15:11] <jussi01> we certainly dont support it in our support areas though
[15:11]  * ScottK didn't think so, but doesn't want to throw around accusations without knowing.
[15:11] <jussi01> !mint
[15:14]  * ScottK wonders about Baltix?
[15:14] <freeflying> I saw a lot complains on qt's IM, so whats going one?
[15:14]  * ScottK knows he's gotten a log of bugmail thanks to them.
[15:15] <freeflying> s/one/on
[15:26] <JohnFlux> In KDE, the battery status applet no longer shows that I have a battery
[15:27] <JohnFlux> if I run byobu and get it to display the battery status, then it works :)
[15:27] <ScottK> Which release?
[15:28] <ScottK> I've found on Lucid i don't have battery status at boot, but if I plug/unplug from power, then i do.
[15:28] <yofel> ScottK: Lucid, we were just talking about it in #u+1
[15:34] <genii> Same here on battery applet (unplug-replug makes it display)
[15:38] <Tm_T> in Karmic, KDE sees my battery just fine, GNOME has no idea about it (:
[17:36] <jussi01> Riddell: shoudl we send out a mail to the list to remind them all of the meeting soon? (n 2.5 h I think) ?
[17:37] <Riddell> jussi01: yeah go ahead
[17:41] <jussi01> Riddell: sure, Ill hit it
[17:41] <jussi01> Riddell: its in -meeting, right?
[17:42] <Riddell> yes
[17:47] <jussi01> done! :)
[17:52] <maco> ah! ok things kmail *really* should not do:  when you hold down backspace in one of the "To:" fields, it is kind of expected that it will stop backspacing once that field is empty. Not so! It'll just jump up to the field above it and backspace that one too!
[17:53] <jussi01> yeah, thats evil
[17:54] <daskreech> It should beep twice first
[17:55] <daskreech> Beep Beep pause Jump Beep Beep Pause jump
[17:55] <ScottK> maco: Works fine here.
[17:56] <maco> ScottK: it stops backspacing?
[17:56] <ScottK> maco: Yep.
[17:57] <ScottK> maco: Sort of.
[17:57] <maco> it jumped from a BCC field to a CC field for me and there was no beep
[17:58] <ScottK> I was testing backspacing from To: to From: and that stopped.  Within the catagory of destinations, (e.g. To:) I get what you are seeing.
[17:58] <maco> the fields just plain interact weird in that program.  If I hit the up arrow while in the top line of the message body, I expect it to jump to the start of the line like it would in a word processor, not jump up to the subject field (perhaps if I hit up *again* after it was at the front of the line...)
[17:59] <daskreech> maco: Bug them as wishlists?
[17:59] <maco> or try to figure out qt....
[18:00] <maco> if something's not too big a bug, i prefer to try to submit a patch with the bug, but i only just noticed the weird bksp behaviour now
[19:18] <Quintasan> meeting in one hour?
[19:18] <ulysses> 20.00 UTC
[19:18] <Quintasan> here?
[19:18] <ulysses> #ubuntu-meeting
[19:19] <Quintasan> okay, back to doing homework then
[19:34] <markey> heh
[19:34] <markey> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Ubuntu
[19:34] <JontheEchidna> uncyclopedia's always a good read if you want a laugh
[19:35] <JontheEchidna> ya just can't be too sensitive :D
[19:38] <markey> if one is too sensitive for that: a good indication that ringing the shrink could be needed ;)
[19:38] <Tm_T> kids...
[19:42] <JontheEchidna> I'd use Pidgin if the tray icon was the ORLY owl....
[19:42] <Quintasan> :D
[19:43] <Tm_T> JontheEchidna: feel free to change it, it's just png, right? (:
[19:43] <daskreech> Kopete randomly has a tray icon for me
[19:43] <daskreech> Wish I knew what caused it to appear/disappaear
[19:45] <Quintasan> looks like my call to testing didn't get to ML
[19:45] <JontheEchidna> Quintasan: I saw in on the ml
[19:45] <Quintasan> oh, good
[19:45] <JontheEchidna> the one you sent 5 hrs ago or so?
[19:45] <Quintasan> yus
[19:46] <Quintasan> I think if it really brings improvement we could consider using it.
[19:47] <Quintasan> looks like I have two items on agenda then
[19:47] <Quintasan> :D
[19:50] <Quintasan> I wonder why plasma is covered by something in Lucid,
[19:50] <Quintasan> looks like a second plasma-desktop is running automagically and I have to kill it to get my desktop back
[19:53] <Quintasan> urgh, kvm needs moar grapics card related options
[20:02] <Riddell> ** kubuntu meeting now in #ubuntu-meeting
[20:38] <Riddell> sebas: what's the status of the network manager plasmoid?
[20:39] <daskreech> hi rickspencer3
[20:39] <rickspencer3> hiya daskreech
[20:39] <rickspencer3> 'sip?
[20:39] <rickspencer3> sup, even
[20:40] <daskreech> rickspencer3: sicker than a manson
[20:40] <daskreech> how are you?
[20:41] <rickspencer3> sorry daskreech
[20:41] <rickspencer3> I am fineo
[20:41] <rickspencer3> weirdly nice weather in Seattle today
[20:41] <rickspencer3> warm and sunny
[20:41] <daskreech> Great :) how's LTS rolling along?
[20:52] <maco> hmrph. you all in -meeting are making me think i ought to bake cookies soon
[20:53] <Tm_T> maco: for me? ooo thanks
[20:53] <maco> oh! omg!
[20:53] <markey> that, and cut your wrists
[20:53] <maco> Riddell: will you help me bake cookies for the kde 4.4 party seele's organizing?
[20:53] <maco> seele: or are we not allowed to bring cookies to wherever you're having it?
[20:54] <seele> huh? i dunno
[20:54] <seele> it's at a bar
[20:54] <maco> markey: awwwww
[21:03] <dhillon-v10> hi all, I want to help out with packaging phonon-backends package, any advice on that
[21:04] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: in rules you can use dh --with kde $@
[21:04] <Quintasan> be sure to use pkg-kde-tools (>= 0.5.0) and debhelper (>= 7.3.16)
[21:06] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan: hi there :) alright thanks will do, one more question and this might be a stupid one: where do I get the source for that package, upstream kde svn or is it in a branch
[21:06] <Quintasan> hmm
[21:06] <Quintasan> if there was a somewhat stable release try KDE braches
[21:06] <Quintasan> if not then it might be in trunk
[21:07] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan: I suppose it would be a branch in launchpad if it has been ever packaged before, otherwise I will have to get the upstream trunk :)
[21:08] <Quintasan> dhillon-v10: we store only debian dirs in bzr AFAIK
[21:08] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan: yah I think you are right :) alright then I'll get it from upstream and start packaging it
[21:08] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan: thanks for the tip on debian/rules
[21:09] <Quintasan> np, the rest will probably go as usual
[21:16] <dhillon-v10> Quintasan: oh btw do I have to add my name here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Ninjas/Packaging and say in progress for phonon-backends
[21:16] <ScottK> dhillon-v10: You don't.
[21:17] <dhillon-v10> ScottK: alright thanks :)
[21:35] <Quintasan> copypasta ftw
[21:35] <Tm_T> (:
[21:41] <tsimpson> so, who wants to talk about the IRC Council? :)
[21:45]  * Quintasan goes to bed, school etc.
[21:45] <Lex79> Quintasan: I installed kffmpeg from your repo and It works better than mplayerthumbs, it's very fast
[21:45] <daskreech> Quintasan: I used to do that as well
[21:45] <daskreech> other order though
[21:45] <Lex79> Quintasan: g 'night
[21:46] <Quintasan> Lex79: awesome, night :P
[21:47] <tsimpson> no one has any questions/comments?
[21:48] <Tm_T> tsimpson: the ones with questions are not online, I suspect
[21:50] <Tm_T> what should be hilighted is, that granting +f to IRCC doesn't mean the ownership of the channel is gone, as Riddell will keep his +F
[21:51] <tsimpson> the IRCC won't take over the channel, but the IRCC is responsible for running all the Ubuntu IRC channels (not Ubuntu/Gnome, but the Ubuntu umbrella of projects), to do that we need access in all our core channels
[21:52] <tsimpson> also, we are moving channel management of access lists to Launchpad, so we need to be able to modify access lists automatically (through the UbuntuIrcCouncil account)
[21:53] <tsimpson> we are doing the same for the main #ubuntu-*, #xubuntu-*, #ubuntu-mythtv-* and #ubuntustudio-* channels
[21:54] <neversfelde> tsimpson: do you need access for loco channels like #kubuntu-de, too?
[21:54] <tsimpson> neversfelde: if the LoCo choose to, that's up to them, but we don't require it
[21:54]  * jussi01 head bedwards
[21:54] <neversfelde> ok
[21:55] <tsimpson> if we need to gain access to a LoCo for some reason (like the channel founder disappearing) we can ask freenode staff for assistance
[22:00] <ScottK> It seems rather forward of the IRCC to be 'requiring' anything.
[22:00] <ScottK> Not very Ubuntu at all.
[22:00] <sebas> Riddell: "in progress", but not done yet
[22:00] <tsimpson> ScottK: we need it to manage access lists
[22:00] <sebas> knetworkmanager is still the safe choice
[22:01] <sebas> I hope to get some progress on finalizing the NM plasmoid done during tokamak, with will being close and stuff
[22:03]  * ScottK doesn't understand what the problem with this channel is that needs solving.
[22:03] <tsimpson> it's not just this channel
[22:04] <tsimpson> it's all the core channels
[22:04] <tsimpson> for ubuntu/xubuntu/kubuntu/ubuntu-server/ubuntu-mythtv/ubuntustudio
[22:04] <ScottK> Sounds like more bureacracy for what reason?
[22:05] <tsimpson> so we can manage access lists, so we can act in emergencies and because we are responsible for managing the IRC channels, so we should have access
[22:08] <al> phonon-backend-xine depends on kcm-phonon-xine
[22:09] <al> would it make sense to change that into a recommends:?
[22:13] <ScottK> al: Jonathano Thomas would be the right person to ask.
[22:14] <ScottK> tsimpson: It sounds like you are solving a non-problem to me, but I'm not on the Kubuntu Council, so it's up to them.
[22:15] <al> ScottK: ok
[22:15] <tsimpson> ScottK: many channels have either stale access lists, or few ops which are sometimes not around during issues. we want to move to having several teams to manage access lists like this: http://tsimpson.ubottu.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/ubuntu-core-ircops.png
[22:16] <tsimpson> to do that, and to have the lists update automatically we need to have access to modify access lists
[22:16] <ScottK> tsimpson: I don't argue there aren't channels where things need fixing.  I just don't think this is one of htem.
[22:16] <Tm_T> ScottK: can you point out some cons of this?
[22:16] <ScottK> Tm_T: I'm a big believer in not fixing things that aren't broken.
[22:16] <tsimpson> prevention is better than cure
[22:17] <ScottK> Kubuntu has traditionally had a lot of autonomy and don't think it should be given up, "Just because".
[22:17] <Tm_T> ScottK: true, I just see this as "no harm and unified tools"
[22:17] <Tm_T> ScottK: what autonomy is given up?
[22:17] <Tm_T> and no, I'm not part of IRCC
[22:18] <ScottK> Going from sole custody to joint ownership is giving something up.
[22:18] <Tm_T> ScottK: IMO +f is not "ownership"
[22:18] <Tm_T> ScottK: if wanted, the one who has +F can drop others +f in one second
[22:19] <ScottK> Tm_T: If we are handing over control of access lists it most certainly is.
[22:19] <tsimpson> you can still give access to anyone you want
[22:19] <ScottK> Apparently this will now be managed via Launchpad.
[22:20] <Tm_T> ScottK: still kubuntu team is the one handling it
[22:20] <ScottK> Tm_T: No.  These are IRCC mechanisms.
[22:20] <tsimpson> the IRCC will not take over the channel, the only difference to now will be that some more people have access
[22:21] <tsimpson> the Kubuntu council will be an admin of the kubuntu team channels
[22:21] <ScottK> I see.  Well that makes it a little different.
[22:22]  * ScottK doesn't see in the backscroll where that got mentioned before.
[22:23]  * ScottK thinks this might be an example of why it's a good idea to actually explain the plan and not just show up and make demands.
[22:23] <ScottK> Gotta go.
[22:23] <tsimpson> we didn't get a chance to explain anything, look at the log in -meeting
[22:26] <Tm_T> brrrh, hate constantly cutting wlan
[22:30] <ScottK> I was there.
[22:30] <ScottK> Didn't seem to be much of an attempt to explain.
[22:30] <ScottK> See you later.
[22:30] <Riddell> maco: I've never made cookies but it can't be too hard
[22:30]  * Tm_T huggles ScottK
[22:41] <Riddell> oh goodness, what have I started with this IRCC thing
[22:41] <JontheEchidna> what'd I msis?
[22:41] <JontheEchidna> *miss
[22:42] <Tm_T> Riddell: heh, it's good that these kind of things is asked to be explained properly
[22:42] <maco> Riddell: never? well i expect you havent made vegan cookies before, but not even he kind with eggs??
[22:42] <Riddell> maco: nope, was always more of a fairy cake baker myself
[22:43] <Riddell> and you know, over here we just eat digestives and hob nobs :)
[22:43] <maco> digestives and hob nobs?
[22:46] <daskreech> I miss Chocolate Hob nobs :-(
[22:51] <al> JontheEchidna: could you have a look at bug #510914? it's basically about the kcm-phonon-xine dependency in phonon-backend-xine
[22:52] <JontheEchidna> al: yeah, I've been meaning to bump that down to a suggests
[22:53] <JontheEchidna> I discussed it with debian a few weeks ago and we decided a Suggests, but I've been pretty busy the past few weeks
[22:53] <Riddell> daskreech: I'm afraid I missed that you added an agenda item for the meeting, sorry about that
[22:54] <Riddell> daskreech: for virtuoso 6.0 isn't currently supported by soprano so we'll go with 5 until that changes
[22:54] <daskreech> I know I was just checking if it's been looked at in terms of CD spce
[22:54] <daskreech> space
[22:54] <al> JontheEchidna: sounds good
[22:54] <al> thanks
[22:55] <daskreech> Cause if 6.0.1 comes out and has some space differential can we handle that?
[23:13] <Riddell> daskreech: depends if it's bigger or smaller :)
[23:26] <daskreech> :-)
[23:26] <daskreech> Riddell: http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2010/01/hi-tech-low-tech-bicycle-madness.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheThrillingWonderStory+(Dark+Roasted+Blend)