[06:01] <kwwii> good morning all, /me is back after a day sick in bed
[06:02] <wedderburn> hope yu're feeling better now then?
[06:02] <kwwii> yepp, almost 100% again ;)
[06:03] <wedderburn> sweet stuff :)
[06:03] <kwwii> scared to open my mail client for fear of the amount of unanswered email but hey ;)
[06:05] <wedderburn> :), mostly mailing list stuff i hope
[06:06] <DanRabbit> kwwii: glad you're no longer sick :)
[06:12] <kwwii> DanRabbit: hehe, me too...I think I had food poisening
[06:12] <DanRabbit> kwwii: ah, that sucks :(
[06:12] <kwwii> essentialy, I had to puke every half an hour for 24 hours
[06:12] <kwwii> I wanted to sleep in the bathroom :p
[06:13] <DanRabbit> wow
[06:14] <kwwii> it was not a nice experience (and I had to postpone my trip to london this week)
[06:14] <DanRabbit> kwwii: btw, in case you want to taste the dark side: http://www.elementary-project.com/downloads/elementary-os/elementary_OS_0.0.9.iso
[06:14] <DanRabbit> oh that's even worse :(
[06:15] <kwwii> oooh, cool...what did you change in that iso?
[06:15] <DanRabbit> a lot of stuff :p
[06:15] <DanRabbit> I removed openoffice and use gnome office instead.
[06:15] <DanRabbit> so that made a lot of room for docky and Do
[06:16] <kwwii> killer, you should post a description and link to the art list
[06:16] <DanRabbit> well, it's not ready for prime time yet :p
[06:16] <DanRabbit> I'm just seeding out a few alphas here and there ;)
[06:17] <DanRabbit> but magical things are coming
[06:17] <DanRabbit> kwwii: did you see the new nautilus stuff we're working on? :D
[06:18] <kwwii> DanRabbit: nope, link?
[06:19] <DanRabbit> h/o
[06:19] <kwwii> kinda funny, the only time we get to chat is when I get up at 6am :p
[06:19] <DanRabbit> kwwii: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/01/nautilus-simple-install-ppa-streamlined.html
[06:20] <DanRabbit> lol
[06:20] <DanRabbit> it's 10:20 PM here
[06:20] <kwwii> oh wow, that is nice
[06:21] <kwwii> killer stuff
[06:21] <DanRabbit> I'm really excited about that one
[06:21] <DanRabbit> we have redo/undo and RGBA ;)
[06:21] <kwwii> yeah, no doubt....that can really change the way you interact with the computer
[06:21] <kwwii> nice...I bet djsiegel likes it too ;)
[06:22] <DanRabbit> I actually haven't talked to him about it
[06:22] <kwwii> hehe
[06:22] <DanRabbit> but I hope so ;) we're kinda picking up where marcus left off :p
[06:23] <kwwii> nautilus really needs fixing. It seems oyu are going down the right road :)
[06:23] <DanRabbit> thanks :)
[06:24] <DanRabbit> all in all, I'm really excited about the stuff we're doing with elementary, and hopefully it can be a proving ground so you can get some sexyness into ubuntu ;)
[06:25] <kwwii> it is an excellent way to get your ideas seen and incorporated into ubuntu...just explaining things doesn't always do the trick
[06:27] <DanRabbit> kwwii: I'm just really excited because now I'm running elementary OS full time :p
[06:28] <kwwii> hehe, that is a good feeling, isn't it? to know that your OS is something you made
[06:29] <kwwii> years ago, all my computers at home ran a system which I built myself. Hard, but satisfying
[06:29] <DanRabbit> yea, it feels awesome.
[06:29] <kwwii> actually, that just proves that I am a geek ;)
[06:29] <DanRabbit> I'm glad this is a lot easier thanks to Reconstructor.
[06:30] <kwwii> no doubt ;)
[06:30] <DanRabbit> I've been keeping in close contact with the main dev and it's been awesome to work with him :)
[06:30] <kwwii> I used to spend an entire week or so, bootstrapping, building everything myself, etc
[06:31] <DanRabbit> haha, yea I don't have to do any of that >.<
[06:31] <DanRabbit> It's just based on shell scripts :p
[06:31] <kwwii> once you find someone you work well with, stick with it at all costs...a good developer is the most important thing a designer with ideas needs
[06:31] <DanRabbit> I'm lucky because I keep running into all kinds of awesome developers :D
[06:31] <DanRabbit> there is so much talent out there its incredible
[06:32] <kwwii> yeah, that is the feeling I get at every UDS
[06:32] <kwwii> you look around and realize that there are a *lot* of intelligent people working on ubuntu
[06:33] <DanRabbit> yea
[06:36] <kwwii> btw, where did you say you live?
[06:36] <kwwii> we are going to be in portland the first week of feb
[06:37] <DanRabbit> kwwii: I'm in Sacramento, CA
[06:37] <DanRabbit> so that's not terribly far away :p
[06:38] <DanRabbit> kwwii: hey my gf wants attention, so mail me or just leave a message and I'll check it later ;)
[06:38] <DanRabbit> btw, my email is Daniel.p.fore@gmail.com
[06:38] <DanRabbit> bye
[06:38] <kwwii> DanRabbit: cool, have fun!
[06:39] <kwwii> thnx
[06:39] <DanRabbit> haha, not that kind of attention :p
[06:39] <kwwii> lol
[06:39] <DanRabbit> she has some Hunny-Do's
[06:39] <kwwii> still sweet ;)
[06:50] <troy_s> Greets coz_
[06:51] <coz_> troy_s,  hey guy
[06:51]  * wedderburn greets troy_s
[06:51] <wedderburn> and coz_
[06:51] <wedderburn> and all
[06:51] <troy_s> Wow... a couple of faces moving.
[06:51] <troy_s> How are you two doing?
[06:51] <wedderburn> can't complain :P
[06:51] <wedderburn> and your self?
[06:51] <coz_> I am well   thanks:)  how about yourself
[06:51] <troy_s> Holding down the fort.
[06:51] <coz_> wedderburn,  hey guy
[06:53] <coz_> so ..have any Odd Nerdrums appeared  lately
[06:54] <troy_s> coz_: Lol... more than a few.
[06:54] <coz_> :)
[06:55]  * wedderburn is updating the deluge icon :P
[06:56] <coz_> wedderburn, ooo...cool... I always thought that needed a bit of tweaking
[06:56]  * vish always wondered why the deluge icon was a *single* drop ;)
[06:56] <wedderburn> well it was only ment to be a 48x48 icon, and its a single drop with a wave in it :P
[06:57] <vish> ah..
[06:57] <wedderburn> and if you pay real attention to the icons on your computer you'll notice that i reused the deluge icon for the compiz water effect plugin ;)
[06:59] <wedderburn> http://andrew.wedderburn.googlepages.com/deluge_256_2.png is what i got so far, still very much a WIP
[06:59] <coz_> wedderburn,  much nicer... I always wondered why that strange curve was there...
[07:00] <vish> wedderburn: the 256 to keepup with gnome ? yeah those things take a lot of time :(
[07:00] <wedderburn> ya, updating ubuntu studio's icons for 256 as we speak :P
[07:00] <wedderburn> they take a fair ammount of time
[07:01] <vish> wedderburn: i thought cory wanted something based on breathe
[07:02] <wedderburn> cory left the project recently
[07:02] <wedderburn> and i've got holidays so i decided to come back and see what i could do
[07:02] <troy_s> vish: Did you and thorwil sort out the gongshow on u-m?
[07:02] <vish> yea..k..  nice
[07:03] <vish> troy_s: not yet... its been slow progress
[07:03] <coz_> who would be responsible for cursor themes in ubuntu?
[07:03] <troy_s> vish: It is hard trying to explain things like that because most of the time you get those blinking eyes and the very clear idea that the folks you are speaking to have no clue what you just tried to explain.
[07:03]  * wedderburn misses the black cursor from ubuntu old 
[07:03] <vish> coz_: kwwii ? i asked earlier , but are there better ones?
[07:04] <troy_s> coz_: If you mean mouse cursor, that is a hand-me-down from jimmac's.
[07:04] <coz_> troy_s,  oh  mm
[07:04] <troy_s> coz_: Rather it is jimmac's
[07:04] <troy_s> coz_: Hasn't changed ... ever?
[07:04] <wedderburn> and he made a rather nice dark version :P
[07:04] <coz_> vish,  yeah there are much better themes    I believe the  fellow who did the   ubuntu crystal cursor is one
[07:05] <troy_s> coz_: It's like bickering over the number of sesame seeds in a hero shot of the burger.
[07:05] <coz_> :)
[07:05] <coz_> troy_s,  I kind of figured it might be a useless cause
[07:05] <troy_s> coz_: Incremental minutiae of irrelevance.
[07:05] <vish> coz_: i'v asked kwwii about this , but I didnt know of any better cursors at the time  :( ... maybe you can point out the cursor to kwwii
[07:06] <troy_s> coz_: It is dead easy to make them.
[07:06] <troy_s> coz_: xcursorgen
[07:06] <coz_> vish,  ok   thanks....
[07:06] <wedderburn> fedora's got a nice default cursor
[07:06]  * vish uses oxygen-extra cursors ..
[07:06] <coz_> troy_s,  thanks... I maybe...or might...perhaps try
[07:07] <troy_s> wedderburn: What does nice mean?
[07:07] <wedderburn> troy_s: i have a preference for it over ubuntu's default
[07:07] <troy_s> wedderburn: Ah.
[07:07] <vish> i like the animation the fedora one has for the "waiting"
[07:08] <wedderburn> yeah thats what i liked best about it vish
[07:10] <wedderburn> coz_: heres the two cursor sets jimmac made btw http://jimmac.musichall.cz/themes.php?skin=7
[07:11] <coz_> mm I have tried those in the past
[07:12] <troy_s> ugh
[07:12] <troy_s> Ok... it's time for bed methinks. Chat soon folks. Keep the torch burning.
[07:12] <coz_> troy_s, sleep well guy
[07:12] <wedderburn> troy_s: sleep well n all
[07:21] <coz_> darkmatter,  morning guy
[07:22] <darkmatter> morning coz_
[07:22] <darkmatter> freaking metacity patch broke policykit. that was fun to fix
[07:22] <coz_> eeww
[07:23] <darkmatter> had no desktop. just mouse/wallpaper xD
[07:23] <darkmatter> but got it temporarily working then removed the patch and locked metacity so I don't get the 'omg! update me!" garbage later
[07:42] <kwwii> wow, quite a discussion this morning :p
[07:42] <kwwii> I think the DMZ cursors are too blocky (but well done)
[07:54] <kwwii> if anyone hasn't seen http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/01/nautilus-simple-install-ppa-streamlined.html they should take a look at it
[07:54] <darkmatter> DMZ-AA is awesome. and non-bulky. it's the whole color inversion thingy
[07:55] <darkmatter> I'll install a simplified nautilus when I see a simplified nautilus ;P
[07:55] <vish> kwwii: 6month old news if you were involved in papercuts ;p Marcus did the work long back , and has had a ppa , but the nautilus devs havent merged his changes yet ;)
[07:55] <vish> s/;)/:(
[07:57] <kwwii> vish: if only I had more time for papercuts :p
[07:58] <coz_> what is the ppa address?
[07:58] <kwwii> coz_: that page has all the info
[07:59] <vish> DanRabbit: "following patched version of Nautilus by the Elementary Team." would be nicer if Marcus was actually given credit for the work ;)
[07:59] <coz_> kwwii,  ah sorry didnt see that
[08:00] <coz_> mm I have a few issues with the "Elementary team"
[08:00] <kwwii> darkmatter: what bugs me in DMZ is the hand and the corner arrows
[08:00] <vish> coz_: hmm?
[08:00] <kwwii> coz_: hehe, creative people can be hard to deal with
[08:00] <coz_> no consitency with the elementary icons  and I had to redo them to for my own use to keep them consitent
[08:01] <darkmatter> kwwii: ahh.. yeah. the resize cursors are a bit large
[08:01] <coz_> kwwii,  :)  I know   .... i can also be difficutlt
[08:02] <vish> kwwii: David knows about the nautilus changes too , btw[just read a bit of scrollback] ;)
[08:02] <vish> coz_: yeah , there are a few inconsistencies :)
[08:03] <kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, right
[08:04] <kwwii> oh well, I think I will take a break and have a late breakfast...bbl
[08:04] <coz_> kwwii,   sounds like a good idea:)
[08:04] <coz_> kwwii,  i just ate breakfast here but it is onley 3am :)
[08:05] <kwwii> hehe, 9 here...but I amazingly started work today at 6am
[08:05] <kwwii> ;)
[08:05] <coz_> :)
[08:05] <kwwii> coz_: are you getting up now or going to bed soon?
[08:06] <coz_> kwwii,  getting up actually.. I took a long nap last night and found "morning" when a woke :)
[08:07] <kwwii> hehe, killer...having a kid pretty much ended any chance of that happening to me again
[08:07] <coz_> lol
[08:08] <coz_> kwwii,  thank god mine are all gone :)
[08:11] <darkmatter> I just woke up myself. well. technically my wife woke me up. women are so naughty and selfish. I shoulda just gotten a cat. but the behavior is about the same *shrug*
[08:12] <coz_> darkmatter,   I like cats...but I only get male cats :)
[08:12] <darkmatter> hehe
[08:12] <coz_> :)
[08:13] <darkmatter> I like cats too, but their dander hates me
[08:13] <wedderburn> hope you got it de-sexed, mate of mine her family breeds them :\
[08:13] <wedderburn> i don't go over there when they're all active
[08:13] <coz_> wedderburn,  oh yeah ...the first time he sprayed in the house I kicked him into the street...he was gone 3 days  and I decided i prefer to keep him so off they came :)
[08:14] <wedderburn> sounds like good thinking to me :P
[08:14] <coz_> he is still the bully of the neigborhood  but I try to keep him indoors
[08:15] <wedderburn> when i lived in perth in western australia, they have a bit of a feral cat issue well at night you would get about 4-5 of them fighting over my back yard
[08:15] <coz_> whoa
[08:15] <coz_> wedderburn,   that is definitly a nuisance
[08:16] <darkmatter> wedderburn: my brother has a female tabby currently in heat. he has a heated catbox outside for strays to warm up in. every time she sees one through the window she gets all giddy and exorcist like (rotating head thing). it's so annoying. little furball biting at your ankles and attempting to drag you to the door so she go 'boy crazy' or what ever
[08:16] <coz_> wedderburn,   how is perth?  I wanted to go there sometime!
[08:16] <darkmatter> like I said, the parallels are so uncanny they're crazy
[08:16] <wedderburn> coz_: in summer its the best place to be, good beachs all over and if you drive a little more than most you'll have the place to your self :)
[08:17] <coz_> wedderburn,  cool :)  and in the winter?
[08:17] <wedderburn> darkmatter: sounds about right
[08:17] <wedderburn> coz_: well its not actually that bad, it just rains alot
[08:17] <coz_> wedderburn,  what about cost of living?
[08:17] <wedderburn> in winter
[08:17] <wedderburn> coz_: depends how close you want to live to the CBD
[08:17] <wedderburn> the further out you are the cheaper it is
[08:18] <coz_> cool
[08:18] <wedderburn> its cheeper than melbourne to rent though so thats good
[08:18] <coz_> wedderburn,  people still live underground  near the opal mines?
[08:18] <darkmatter> the spca here has a program to fix them for free (for people with low wages etc). he's on the list but hasn't gotten a vet appointment yet
[08:19] <wedderburn> coz_: thats in coopapedie( or how ever you spell it) and thats in the outback in south australia
[08:19] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)
[08:19] <coz_> wedderburn,  oh !
[08:19] <wedderburn> coz_: nah most of australia is above ground in fairly modern cities near the coast
[08:19] <coz_> wedderburn,  i was under the impression there were underground homes near perth
[08:20] <wedderburn> maybe in kalgoolie
[08:20] <wedderburn> suppose thats relativly close to perth
[08:20] <coz_> wedderburn,  oh ok
[08:20] <coz_> anywhere but the US would be fine :)
[08:21] <wedderburn> well sydney's even relatively(883kms / 549 miles) close to melbourne so its all pretty relative :P
[08:22] <coz_> austrailia is mostly coastal living like south america  right?
[08:22] <darkmatter> speaking of underground homes, who wants to donate to my Hobbit-Hole Fund? I intend to die an eccentric recluse ;)
[08:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  :)   I dont blame you for that :)
[08:22] <wedderburn> coz_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_living for your underground living question, and yeah its all coastal living our capital and alice springs are the only real places of note that arn't near the coast
[08:23] <coz_> yep that's them :)
[08:23] <coz_> I always found this interesting.... and cool  no pun intended
[08:24] <coz_> although they could do with a little colour on the walls :)
[08:24] <wedderburn> basically you got the coast line then the center which is just dessert not much out there
[08:27] <coz_> that elementary nautilus is not that impressive
[08:29] <wedderburn> looks nicer than before
[08:29] <coz_> wedderburn,  well yeah as long as they included a quick   "revert"  tick box or button.... I somehow think that the average user is not going to fair well with this
[08:30] <wedderburn> average user just wants to copy and paste things :P
[08:30] <wedderburn> and find documents
[08:30] <coz_> wedderburn,  and have some sense of reliability even with changes
[08:30] <wedderburn> i know thats all i use nautilus for really
[08:30] <coz_> :)
[08:30] <coz_> me too
[08:30] <darkmatter> coz_: it's not impressive because it's not simplified as per the claim. it's 'compacted' perhaps, but it's still the same mess as usual
[08:31] <wedderburn> and since it doesn't hinder that i can't see the negative side :P
[08:31] <coz_> darkmatter,  I agree  which is one of my complaints with elementary project
[08:31] <coz_> wedderburn,  yeah I kind of like nautilus as is.... when a really good design change comes along I might give it a try
[08:33] <wedderburn> the thing that needs fixing the most is the UI system  open office uses to get themes from gnome, its a wee bit broken on anything other than clearlooks :\
[08:34] <darkmatter> coz_: my complaint with th 'improved' nautilus is that it's more cluttered than before. sure, the unpatched nautilus has slightly to much chrome, but at least there is enough whitespace to distinguish the elements from eachother.
[08:34] <coz_> wedderburn,  agreed
[08:34] <kwwii> wedderburn: OOo and firefox don't count :p
[08:34] <coz_> darkmatter,   i agree with that also
[08:35] <wedderburn> kwwii: love that theory :P, but OO really does stop most distro's from shipping vastly different gtk themes :\
[08:35] <darkmatter> coz_: I have the same issues with other 'minimal' ui's as well. chrome being a fine example. as a general rule less ui is better, but not if it sacrifices usability or usefulness
[08:35] <kwwii> darkmatter: I think part of that comlaint is due to the simplicity of the theme though
[08:35] <kwwii> wedderburn: trust me, I know...there is little one can do about either of them
[08:35] <vish> darkmatter: we dont need a lot of the buttons on the chrome... a lot of those can be removed
[08:35] <coz_> darkmatter,  or clean appearance as well
[08:35] <kwwii> at least firefox listens before they say no :p
[08:36] <vish> nautilus chrome*
[08:39] <coz_> personally ... I prefer kde's  dolphin over nautilus
[08:40] <darkmatter> vish: by default, no we don't. but I wasn't talking exclusively about buttons, so I should actually thank you for mentioning that. because simplification for the sake of simplification is criminal. nearly as criminal as bloated ui's like OO.o, I'll explain in a bit. need coffee. brb
[08:40] <coz_> :)
[08:41] <vish> ;)
[08:52] <thorwil> vish: first wolter says hi to me and disappears immediately, then Kolorguild comes and goes like that ^
[08:53] <vish> >.<
[08:53] <vish> heh , liferea is great , cuts out all the comments [mainly comments from OMG :D]
[08:54] <vish> thorwil: i think they are not in a hurry  , since it can be done even near the end
[08:54] <vish> probably after beta Lucid release..
[08:55] <thorwil> vish: i'm not in favor of the student approach
[08:55] <vish> :)
[08:59] <darkmatter> back
[08:59] <vish> thorwil: did you send the mail to David Nel and benjamin as well? [I didnt see them in the cc]
[09:00] <thorwil> vish: they were supposed to be in To:
[09:01] <thorwil> vish: i just noticed something went wrong, as David is missing in my Sent copy
[09:01] <vish> thorwil: oh.. i dont see them in the To: either
[09:03] <thorwil> in same places, Evolutions hasn't been intelligently designed
[09:05] <thorwil> vish: send again, with David in To and you and wolter in CC. please confirm
[09:06] <vish> yup
[09:06] <vish> good now
[09:06] <thorwil> phew :)
[09:07] <vish> brb
[09:09] <darkmatter> coz_: I'm working on a new class of ui, though I'm not sure what to call it
[09:10] <coz_> darkmatter,   cool....I cant think of a name off hand :)
[09:12] <vish> Damn it .. "Avatar" is kinda taken
[09:13] <darkmatter> coz_: basically it's a matter of removing the cons of ui design. atm there are two major types. inductive and deductive. though they aren't really used in conjunction in a consistent or meaningful way. we see inductive ui's primarily on the web, and local ui's are almost exclusively deductive
[09:13] <thorwil> call it nooclass
[09:14] <vish> thorwil: i'm not sure Wolter's assessment that the manual is supposed to a help documentation is not right... IMO ,it seems more like an introduction to Ubuntu.. just have a look at most of the chapters
[09:15] <vish> it has history/geograhy/etc.. ;)
[09:16] <thorwil> vish: you are not sure that he is not right ... ever programmed something? ;)
[09:16] <vish> argh! damn! you are not sure that he is right ;0
[09:16] <darkmatter> now, as a general rule, induction should take precedence over deduction, as it utilizes a faster approach to pattern recognition, is simple yet powerful in its own right, and tends to be elegant when executed properly
[09:16] <vish> s/you/I'm
[09:17] <vish> thorwil: xchat has this small single line input box and i cant notice what I'v typed :(  so many mistakes i'm bound to make
[09:18] <darkmatter> however since inductive ui's tend to deal with one task per view, they slow productivity for more complex tasks or repetitive tasks (such as adding accounts to a system with numerous users for example)
[09:18]  * vish needs to stick to single line replies... easier to catch mistakes
[09:19] <thorwil> vish: i'm using xchat, too. but i don't know the number of mistakes i'm bound to make
[09:20] <vish> thorwil: well,  i'm sure to make a *lot*... so expect more :D
[09:20] <darkmatter> the basic idea is to create a schedule based interface metaphor that takes the strongest selling points of both the inductive and deductive interfaces while weeding out as many of the negatives as possible
[09:21] <coz_> darkmatter,  you lost me on this one :)
[09:22] <coz_> guys I thought I was well rested but apparently not...going for nap
[09:22] <coz_> be back later
[09:24] <darkmatter> schedule based, because, well, I've been trying to sell the idea for years. basically timelines (not unlike what is now provided by zeitgeist), but presented on a task/activity level, both within individual libraries/interfaces as well as through a global history function
[09:26] <darkmatter> organized by relevance instead of just the 'day one, day two *all my crap is crammed together!*' approach
[09:55] <kwwii> does anyone here understand how the metacity left_left_background and such work?
[11:11] <wedderburn> cool, youtube now supports html5 vid :P
[15:18]  * kwwii is off to the store for groceries...bbl