[02:45] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: ping :)
[03:00] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: pong
[03:01] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: I'll try and finish all the bugs tnoight, my exams are over yay!!
[03:02] <HedgeMage> lol yay :)
[03:31] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: https://bugs.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bug/504554 is this one done ?
[03:33] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: not afaik...but I'm not sure what the folks here want as far as a comment set-up either
[03:38] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: I enabled the advanced_forum module, and the other little modules that do with it, can you go ahead and have a look on the website, and tell me what needs to be done for the taxonomy module
[03:46] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: give me a sec to set up what we'll need for the forum <--> mailing list bridge, then we'll attack the rest of the advanced_forum stuff together...it takes a bit of config magic
[03:46] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: can you tell me what changes you are making, I want to learn more about these modules :)
[03:47] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: If you give me a minute to have my housemate forward some ports I can set up a VNC session for you to watch :)
[03:48] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: sound like a plan?
[03:48] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: great :)
[03:48] <HedgeMage> do you have a jabber client that can handle voice chat, or failing that, Skype?
[03:49] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: nope, I have google talk though but that doesn't support voice thing, but there is epiphany
[03:49] <dhillon-v10> *empathy
[03:50] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: wait i can use video stuff in empathy
[03:51] <HedgeMage> hold on a sec, hollaring @ housemate :)
[03:53] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: I need to switch WMs (flux has been acting odd with VNC lately) so bear with me another minute :)
[03:54] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: np :)
[04:01] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: okay, on gnome, turned off my pretty desktop and all transparency so as to save bandwidth
[04:02] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: are we using jabber or skype?
[04:03] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: oh wait, jabber I think.
[04:03] <HedgeMage> my jabber ID is hedgemage@jabber.binaryredneck.net so just add me and initiate a voice chat when ready
[04:05] <HedgeMage> welcome back, dhillon-v10
 my jabber ID is hedgemage@jabber.binaryredneck.net so just add me and initiate a voice chat when ready
[04:05] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: yeah, I got that message don't worry that's other me
[04:06] <HedgeMage> grr... do you have skype?  I'm using the development version of gajim and it's getting crashy when I turn on Jingle
[04:06] <HedgeMage> not sure why
[04:07] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: do I need a web-cam, I just broke mine like yesterday
[04:07] <HedgeMage> nope, was just planning on voice and VNC
[04:07] <HedgeMage> (VNC lets you view my screen as I work)
[04:07] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: wait so you are running Ubuntu right, i know about VNC and I see you in jabber, but if you have empathy you just have to right click and then share desktop
[04:08] <HedgeMage> I have no idea wtf empathy is
[04:08]  * HedgeMage sees if it is installed
[04:08] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: you know what sorry for all that trouble, let's not worry about that, sorry again for wasting a lot of time on that
[04:09] <HedgeMage> no, don't be sorry, I'm looking up empathy now :)
[04:09] <HedgeMage> I don't exactly have a stock ubuntu system here... I've been at this since 1994 so I don't play with all the new gui toys that often
[04:10] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: brb gotta eat dinner :)
[04:10] <HedgeMage> ok
[04:22] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: back, dinner was good, did you eat yet ?
[04:27] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: Yep, a while ago...the steaks were cheap and not that good, but OMG the fresh baked bread!
[04:33] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: ping?
[04:36] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: pong :) sorry working on this critical bug that could screw up a lot in kde
[04:37] <HedgeMage> np
[04:42] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: we can do this later if you like
[04:53] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: sure, right now edubuntu bugs and kde bugs, vnc stuff later on then :)
[04:57] <HedgeMage> That's a plan
[04:58] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: alright I scrolled through the site permissions and they seem to be fine :)
[05:01] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: can you run the update script, thanks another one (site-docs) down :)
[05:01] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: here: http://edubuntu.frogandowl.org/admin/build/sitedoc
[05:02] <HedgeMage> update script?  New modules don't require that, just updates to existing code
[05:02]  * HedgeMage is confused
[05:03] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: ahh okay, I was talking about the update.php or something like that
[05:03] <HedgeMage> update.php only runs when we change something (module or drupal core) to a newer version
[05:03] <HedgeMage> cron.php should run occassionally, but you can do that manually from the status page
[05:04] <HedgeMage> (it'll run automatically in production, but running it say during a git commit is bad so we do it manually during development)
[05:05] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: ahh okay :) we have about 4 more to go yay!!! help me with this one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/edubuntu-website/+bug/504556
[05:05] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: leave that for now, I have a question on site organization for highvoltage first
[05:08] <HedgeMage> dhillon-v10: pm?
[05:08] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: okay then, i am working on the last one I can (the rest are yours: design new theme and feedback stuff) its the php filter one
[05:08] <dhillon-v10> HedgeMage: sure :)
[07:27] <alkisg> Good morning all
[09:04] <vmlintu> morning
[09:05] <vmlintu> The user management discussion yesterday looks interesting.
[09:05] <vmlintu> I'm just looking in to ways how I could get involved in it..
[09:19] <alkisg> vmlintu: you'd better wait till sbalneav shows up and talk to him...
[09:20] <alkisg> It's a post-Lucid goal... how do you think you could contribute? coding? configuration examples?
[09:21] <vmlintu> We are now running ldap+kerberos+nfs4 with ltsp/fat clients, so I could get some working examples out
[09:21] <alkisg> "fat" clients or standalone workstations?
[09:22] <vmlintu> pxe booting fat clients on top of ltsp
[09:22] <alkisg> Wow, nice... did you use nubae's script for that, or is it something custom-made?
[09:22] <vmlintu> I'm now also working on coding new user management tool to better integrate moodle+elgg+mediawiki+what else with schools' user databases
[09:22] <vmlintu> The code will be out next week, I hope
[09:23] <vmlintu> The fat client stuff is custom made as it's running kerberos+nfs4
[09:24] <alkisg> I guess with the new fat plugin you could do the same by configuring kerberos+nfs4 on the ltsp server only...
[09:24] <alkisg> Anyway, sbalneav's your man for this :)
[09:25] <vmlintu> We had to go with nfs4 as sshfs caused too many problems..
[09:25] <alkisg> What problems?
[09:25] <vmlintu> some of the applications didn't work as they didn't like sshfs
[09:26] <alkisg> Did you try with SSH_FOLLOW_SYMLINKS=True|False?
[09:26] <vmlintu> Is that in karmic?
[09:27] <alkisg> Not sure... maybe a few weeks _after_ karmic was released...
[09:28] <vmlintu> I think the problem was with file locking
[09:28] <vmlintu> Some applications just refused to start as they couldn't read and write in user's home
[09:29] <vmlintu> We are not running karmic ltsp in production, so I haven't tried sshfs with it
[09:29] <alkisg> Right, I had that with googleearth and I solved it with SSH_FOLLOW_SYMLINKS
[09:29] <vmlintu> ok, I'll have to have a look at it
[09:30] <alkisg> I'm not sure how old is that parameter, it might even be in hardy...
[09:30] <alkisg> grep your sources for it
[09:30] <vmlintu> I remember there also being some performance issues with large files also, but I cannot remember everything anymore
[09:31] <vmlintu> But we settled with kerberos so that we got single sign on working with firefox also
[09:31] <alkisg> Yeah sure sshfs=encrypted=safe=slow, nfs=unencrypted=unsafe=fast...
[09:31] <alkisg> vmlintu: do you think such a solution could be packaged and be easily used in e.g. small schools?
[09:32] <vmlintu> nfs4 supports encryption
[09:32] <alkisg> And it's faster than sshfs? wow..
[09:34] <vmlintu> If sshfs is used and the actual home directory is on a file server that is mounted through an ltsp server, it gets transferred twice, before it gets to the client..
[09:34] <vmlintu> With nfs you can mount it directly from the same server where ltsp server gets it from
[09:35] <vmlintu> We got now working scripts to get all this working on ubuntu quite easily.
[09:37] <vmlintu> Getting mediawiki+moodle+elgg working with single sign on is the next step. Having the kerberos ticket is a killer here..
[09:39] <vmlintu> So yes, I'm really hoping to get it all working also for small setups. Though, I doubt that this could be made as the default setup as debugging possible problems is a pain
[09:40] <alkisg> It doesn't have to be the default setup... if it was e.g. as easy as `sudo apt-get install edubuntu-nfs-ldap-kerberos-server`
[09:41] <ogra> it has to be upgradeable though and match the packaging standards (i.e. not modify config files etc)
[09:41] <ogra> i would suggest a wikipage howto with the scripts attached for a start ;)
[09:42] <vmlintu> The last part is the problem now. The scripts mess with the config files big time..
[09:42] <ogra> right, yxou can work around that by enhancing the packages but that takes time
[09:42] <ogra> i.e. make them read a /etc/<packageconfig>.d/ directory and grab configs from there
[09:43] <ogra> so that you only have to dump config files in there that override the packaged version
[09:45] <vmlintu> something like that would probably be needed
[09:46] <alkisg> I think also ebox has some plugins that handle ldap + kerberos...
[09:47] <alkisg> I wonder if those could be used
[09:47] <ogra> not sure it fulfills the purpose though
[09:47] <vmlintu> for the actual user management we have now a web based tool that takes care of ldap+samba+kerberos
[09:48] <ogra> ebox is actually a standalone thing for co-location servers i wonder how well it blends in with standard infrastructure
[09:48] <alkisg> They're also developing a new ebox-desktop package, that would be able to automatically integrate ubuntu clients to samba or AD...
[09:48] <ogra> sweet
[09:48] <alkisg> And I think they're also transferring some settings to users with it (empathy accounts etc)
[09:53] <vmlintu> I wonder when ubuntu one gets syncronisation working for all user settings..
[09:59] <alkisg> Well currently it just crashes on startup on my lucid box :D
[10:02] <alkisg> ogra: do you think it would be a good idea to upload a bunch of ltsp-build-client plugins to the UbuntuLTSP/* wiki? Those that would be useful in some cases, but not generic enough to include upstream... e.g. a "blacklisted-packages" or a "copy-italc-keys" or a "setup-passwordless-ssh" plugin?
[10:03]  * alkisg will make a dozen of them in the next few days...
[10:12] <vmlintu> My favourite ltsp hack is a script that loads a file through tftp while the image boots and executes it. Makes it possible to modify the image on the fly just by modifying the file on the server..
[10:34] <ogra> alkisg, and why would you not include them upstream ?
[10:35] <ogra> alkisg, if they are useful on ubuntu just include them in the plugins/Ubuntu dir
[10:35] <ogra> as long as they are optional
[10:37] <alkisg> Nice! OK, I'll do that as long as noone objects. :)
[11:36] <vmlintu> alkisg: I put together a quick blog article about what's been happening with user management in the schools that I work with if you are interested: http://www.opinsys.fi/user-management-rethought
[11:36] <vmlintu> I try to write more about the details next
[11:36] <alkisg> vmlintu: thank you, I'll read it in a while :)
[11:45] <Tm_T> vmlintu: nice
[11:45] <Tm_T> vmlintu: and hi
[11:48] <alkisg> vmlintu: "What’s the killer feature that I’m missing?" ==> a way for the teachers to do all that when sysadmins are not affordable :)
[11:48] <vmlintu> Tm_T: thanks
[11:48] <vmlintu> alkisg: sounds easy ;)
[12:13] <vmlintu> alkisg: actually we have many schools where teachers could never install even firefox in the system themselves, but they are comfortable creating users with the web based tools
[12:14] <alkisg> vmlintu: well, as long as those web tools could be installed by a computer teacher, I could use them here as well.
[12:15] <alkisg> But if an experienced sysadmin is needed to setup ldap/kerberos/nfs4 and the web tools, so that the teachers can then use them, then good as they might be, these tools are useless to my area...
[12:16] <vmlintu> the web tools require now a working kerberos setup before they can be used
[12:17] <alkisg> Yes, and currently I don't know of any easy way to install kerberos, that a simple computer teacher could use...
[12:17] <vmlintu> I think I have to start working on packaging..
[12:17] <alkisg> :)
[12:17] <alkisg> Now you're talking!
[12:18] <vmlintu> We are actually coding a new system as described in the article
[12:19] <alkisg> Have you seen ebox? Maybe you could join forces?
[12:30] <vmlintu> I did evaluate it a while back, but back then it didn't suit our needs. A lot has changed since that, it looks like..
[14:52] <sbalneav> Morning all
[15:07] <vmlintu> good afternoon
[15:10] <vmlintu> sbalneav: did you read the user management discussion we had earlier with alkisg?
[15:12] <sbalneav> No, I didn't.
[15:12] <sbalneav> I'll backscroll
[15:12] <vmlintu> I've been trying to figure out how to get the stuff we have for user management + ldap + kerberos to be useful for others too
[15:13] <sbalneav> Well, some of the stuff that you've done might nicely slot into the plugin architecture I have envisioned for the user management tool I've begun to outline.
[15:14] <vmlintu> Just dumping out it would make no sense as it's got too much history load
[15:16] <sbalneav> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/Specifications/NewUserAdminTool
[15:17] <sbalneav> Feel free to add onto the spec
[15:17] <vmlintu> Did I understand correctly that the user management tool will be a local application, not a webapp?
[15:17] <sbalneav> yes
[15:18] <sbalneav> We'd like something that will be useful to plug into System->Administration
[15:18] <ogra> vmlintu, you could write a webserver hook/plugin for it if you feel like ;)
[15:20] <vmlintu> ogra: hmm.. just separate the gui from the user manipulation part and it should be doable..
[15:20] <ogra> i thought thats the plan
[15:20] <sbalneav> right
[15:21] <vmlintu> we have now a web app that can do e.g. user mass imports from messy data
[15:22] <vmlintu> The main purpose of it is to provide better integration with web apps like moodle, mediawiki and elgg
[15:24] <vmlintu> I'd be happy to dump direct ldap connections and use the new outlined tool to create the users in ltsp servers
[15:24] <sbalneav> Perfect.
[15:25] <sbalneav> Post lucud, we'll start hacking :)
[15:25] <vmlintu> Managing users with a local application doesn't really work for us as we need to be able to do it remotely..
[15:25] <ogra> and
[15:26] <ogra> if you have a desktop app that is running on every desktop but a backend that connects to the auth server, does that matter
[15:27] <vmlintu> we have a pile of separate systems that are administered from a single location
[15:27] <vmlintu> so there would need to be a way to select the correct backend
[15:27] <ogra> right, but i see no reason why the protocol has to be http
[15:28] <ogra> you can have a local UI and have the app talk to the server transparently
[15:28] <vmlintu> http came in the picture when we started having schools where admins used windows boxes to create the users..
[15:28] <ogra> and sure, if the remote option is enabled and you have multiple servers to maintain, it should be possible to enasble such a feature
[15:29] <sbalneav> vmlintu: Well, it may just be that the tool we're outlining doesn't work for you in your situation.
[15:29] <sbalneav> It's impossible to make a tool be all things to all people.
[15:30] <vmlintu> sbalneav: I'm hoping that it would work at least partly. If there'd be a way to create two front-ends to it, I could get quite a bit work done for the backend connections too
[15:31] <mhall119|work> you can always X-forward the tool from the machine it runs on to a remote display
[15:31] <vmlintu> What I'd have now ready is a set of ldap schemas that works for schools at least over here. Kerberos setup works also using ldap as backend. And perl code to manage the ldap.
[16:02] <vmlintu> I'll start going through things next week and see what the current needs here actually are. I hope I can clean the existing scripts to help others too on this..
[16:36]  * highvoltage stumbles in after being stuck in traffic for a few hours
[16:53] <dgroos> I'd like to try to get italc working, again, and I'm pretty sure I need to get completely rid of current italc stuff.  Is there a better way than typing, "locate italc" which gives me a list of all files that have that string in their name, then "sudo rm" each one?  I hope...
[17:12] <alkisg> dgroos: sudo rm -rf /etc/italc
[17:12] <alkisg> sudo rm -rf /opt/ltsp/i386/etc/italc
[17:13] <dgroos> alkisg: cool, thanks, then I'll try a 'sudo apt-get install italc-master'.
[17:14] <dgroos> Also, what's your phd gonna be about?
[17:14] <alkisg> dgroos: right, and after the installation reboot everything (including the server) and see if it works
[17:16] <alkisg> My phd will be about automatically converting from pseudocode <=> diagrams... I have an IDE for pseudocode, I'll add diagrams + conversion techniques and then study how that could help kids learning programming
[17:17] <alkisg> (flowcharts)
[17:18] <dgroos> Would this be some form of graphical programming (i.e. not so much text based)?
[17:19] <dgroos> Tools like this don't already exist?  How's it different?
[17:20] <alkisg> Screenshots of my existing tool are here:
[17:20] <alkisg> http://users.sch.gr/alkisg/screenshots/
[17:21] <alkisg> The new thing is that it'll automatically convert from pseudocode to flowchart, and vice-versa. There aren't any proper tools for this, and whatever little is out there has not been studied as part of some research..
[17:31] <dgroos> Bable fish chickened out of translating the page, but google translate did this: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.sch.gr%2Falkisg%2Fscreenshots%2F&sl=el&tl=en Which, I somewhat understood.  Cool idea.  Though I'm not a coder, seems like a great tool if you can get the quick feedback, in a visual way.
[17:35] <dgroos> alkisg: shouldn't I also get rid of: .italc stuff, /usr/lib/italc (and in chroot) and /opt/ltsp/i386/share/ltsp/xintrc.d/I15-italc?
[17:38] <alkisg> dgroos: no, ignore those, the keys are what's causing trouble to most users
[17:38] <dgroos> 'k
[17:39] <dgroos> As an aside, sort of, does it matter if I run the install command from a thin client or from the server?
[17:40] <alkisg> No, except that in both cases you need to logoff for the program to run. Well just reboot everything when you're done to be sure :)
[18:27] <dgroos> alkisg: Do I need to get infront of the server or should I be able to start italc from NX access to the server?  I'm trying to do italc via NX access to the server and get key pair issues.
[18:27] <dgroos> In other words, is my authentication issue with italc related to my NX access to the server?
[18:34] <alkisg> dgroos: no NX shouldn't be a problem. Try this: avahi-browse -trp _italc._tcp
[18:34] <alkisg> ...and paste the results to pastebin
[18:39] <dgroos_> alkisg: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/360813/
[18:40] <dgroos_> I ran it on the NX, should I do on the thin client?  matter?
[18:44] <alkisg> =;eth0;IPv4;italc\032ltsp61;_italc._tcp;local;ltsp61.local;192.168.0.61;5900;"ltsp61"
[18:44] <alkisg> ==> italc is NOT uninstalled from the chroot
[18:45] <alkisg> You should remove it from the chroot, and rebuild your image
[18:45] <dgroos> should I have run an update of image before/after install?
[18:45] <alkisg> Either that, or properly copy the keys to the chroot...
[18:45] <alkisg> No
[18:45] <alkisg> You should have ran an update after you removed it from the chroot,
[18:46] <dgroos> after I copy the keys, update chroot?
[18:46] <alkisg> dgroos: weren't you trying the "only install it on the server" method?
[18:46] <alkisg> To try that, you need to remove italc from the chroot
[18:46] <alkisg> You didn't remove it...
[18:47] <dgroos> OK, I'll remove all italc-ish stuff first!
[18:50] <alkisg> dgroos: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get purge italc-client libitalc
[18:50] <alkisg> and sudo ltsp-update-image
[18:56] <dgroos_> will do!
[19:30] <sbalneav> Holy Dinah!
[19:31] <sbalneav> Alkis goes for a bug-closing spree!
[19:31] <sbalneav> \o/
[19:33] <sbalneav> Man, all I need to do is check if we've cut new LTSP packages since the bug day, and then a bunch of those "Fix Committed"'s become Fix Released
[19:33] <sbalneav> and LTSP will no longer be the buggiest package
[19:34] <sbalneav> pitivitiitvitivitittiititvi will be.
[19:45] <dgroos_> alkisg: OK--tried the: sudo chroot /opt/ltsp/i386 apt-get purge italc-client libitalc and got the message (along with some other things): http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/360833/
[19:58] <dgroos_> (I belatedly note that alkisg went to bed...) anyone, do you know if this line of output: is a problem: Can not write log, openpty() failed (/dev/pts not mounted?)?
[20:23]  * mhall119|work isn't fond of pitivi
[20:23]  * mhall119|work likes OpenShot better
[20:57] <alincoln> dgroos_: not a problem as far as i know
[20:58] <dgroos_> alincoln: thanks.  I've been working on this italc thing, didn't work again so am removing every 'italc' containing file (except the launchpad stuff of course).
[20:59] <alincoln> gotcha.  i see that message when doing package stuff inside the chroot all the time, and it's nothing to worry about
[21:00] <dgroos_> cool.