| sbalneav | stgraber: M'aidaiz! | 01:38 |
|---|---|---|
| sbalneav | hmmm, not good | 01:45 |
| sbalneav | Well, *THAT* sucked. | 02:23 |
| dgroos | *THAT* being...? | 02:38 |
| sbalneav | Machine locked up | 02:39 |
| sbalneav | When I rebooted, machine wouldn't boot. | 02:39 |
| sbalneav | period | 02:39 |
| sbalneav | turns out, my bios had gotten a checksum error, and had reset itself | 02:39 |
| sbalneav | so my bios clock was back to 2007 | 02:39 |
| sbalneav | fsck wouldn't allow the system to boot, since the time that the last mount happened was in the future. | 02:40 |
| sbalneav | Took me an hour to realize what was going on. | 02:40 |
| dgroos | Didn't know that could happen... | 03:09 |
| dgroos | How did you finally crack it? Was the Bios still able to do its thing and you then just changed it? | 03:11 |
| sbalneav | Took me a while to turn off the *&%($(&^$( graphical boot | 03:33 |
| sbalneav | once I did that, I saw what the error message was. | 03:33 |
| sbalneav | Then I fixed it. | 03:33 |
| joerg | hi | 16:23 |
| joerg | does edubuntu have or plan to include a web gui to make collaboration easier? | 16:29 |
| dgroos | joerg: can you elaborate? | 16:54 |
| dgroos | I'll be in and out of here randomly but will be checking... | 16:55 |
| === dgroos_ is now known as dgroos | ||
| joerg | dgroos, well, we have about 200 schools here using linux servers for tasks like: samba, ftp, imap, homepage, proxy (filtered), etc. - and students and teacher have a nice web gui where they can read mail, upload files and share them in groups, etc. | 17:04 |
| joerg | dgroos, and I wonder if something like that is planned for edubuntu as well | 17:04 |
| joerg | because we are looking for an open source solution to do the same stuff....:) | 17:05 |
| sbalneav | joerg_: Both egroupware and phpgroupware are in the repositories and can be installed and configured | 18:06 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, yeah and many other stuff :) | 18:07 |
| joerg_ | phpgroupware is not a web gui that focuses on a school's needs :P | 18:08 |
| sbalneav | Well, what are the schools you're talking about using? | 18:10 |
| sbalneav | We also have moodle. | 18:10 |
| sbalneav | joerg_: Any idea what the schools you're talking about are using? | 18:13 |
| joerg_ | iserv | 18:14 |
| joerg_ | :P | 18:14 |
| sbalneav | Not seeing it in any of the repos. Got a homepage reference for it? Maybe it just needs packaging? | 18:16 |
| sbalneav | joerg_: I'm not sure exactly what your requirements are, or what you're wanting this software to do. If this is something that doesn't currently exist, that you'd like a Fee Software equivalent, then what I'd suggest is posting to the edubuntu-devel list with a set of requirement. | 18:24 |
| sbalneav | At that point, we could work on a blueprint for what you'd like the project to do exactly, then it could be looked at as something that could be written. | 18:25 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, www.iserv.eu - but it is german only. | 18:25 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, well, I don't need somebody to develop it ;) | 18:27 |
| joerg_ | I just wanted to know if somebody has it as free software and I simply haven't found it or if somebody likes the idea and wanna join the developer team ;) | 18:27 |
| sbalneav | So this iServ isn't Free software? | 18:28 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, the concept of that iserv is basically: a debian based linux distribution that is easy to install and preconfigured. that's what we do not need.....because we have edubuntu. | 18:28 |
| joerg_ | no it isnot. | 18:28 |
| joerg_ | anyway: after you have this iserv running: you have one and only one web gui to do everything. | 18:29 |
| joerg_ | as an "admin" you can add new students and teachers and put them in groups, but you don't have to be root | 18:30 |
| joerg_ | even though they get a normal user account | 18:30 |
| joerg_ | there are group folders stored in /group/myclass - accessible by all group members (rw) via the web gui and samba, ftp. | 18:31 |
| joerg_ | as well as your own homedir of course. | 18:31 |
| joerg_ | then you can read and write mail from username@myschool.edu | 18:32 |
| joerg_ | your mailbox is accessible by imap and pop3 as well | 18:32 |
| joerg_ | you can manage your contacts, appointments, etc. - the normal groupware stuff. | 18:33 |
| joerg_ | teachers can block internet access to all computers in the classroom | 18:33 |
| sbalneav | Well, as for the user admin tool, we have a spec for that: | 18:33 |
| sbalneav | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/NewUserAdminTool | 18:33 |
| joerg_ | students can print out documents and pay for it. | 18:34 |
| sbalneav | The web mail bit can be handled by any one of a number of webmail clients available | 18:34 |
| sbalneav | blocking internet access is fairly easy with LTSP | 18:35 |
| sbalneav | Don't know off the top of my head about the printing. I know cups has accounting, you'd just need some kind of web interface to it. | 18:36 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, but we don't want a tool here and a tool there. | 18:36 |
| joerg_ | we have got that iserv stuff on 200 servers for only one reason: you can do everything you need in one place. | 18:36 |
| sbalneav | joerg_: Then you'll have to help get involved with us in writing one :) | 18:36 |
| joerg_ | indeed. | 18:36 |
| joerg_ | that's what I am trying to do :) | 18:36 |
| sbalneav | Because currently, there isn't a Free software tool that does all that. | 18:36 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, my idea is: an all in one web based gui | 18:37 |
| joerg_ | that can load modules | 18:37 |
| joerg_ | e.g.: the school is running that tool, it is themed with a common look and feel, provides a "welcome page", does the auth and builds a navigation tree. | 18:38 |
| sbalneav | Sounds great. Write up a spec on launchpad's Blueprints section. | 18:38 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, ok ;) | 18:38 |
| joerg_ | so basically, the admin can say: ok, the school has a library, I want the library module | 18:38 |
| joerg_ | and voila....the navigation tree shows a link "library" and students can search the library for books | 18:39 |
| joerg_ | get notifications by mail if they have to return a book immediately | 18:39 |
| joerg_ | or build a list with their favorite books | 18:39 |
| joerg_ | or mark that they would like to borrow a certain book after somebody who is reading it atm has returned it. | 18:40 |
| joerg_ | that would be one example for a module | 18:40 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, the mail module could provide a simple imap client - depending on the configuration, it could simply access gmail servers. | 18:41 |
| joerg_ | or the school has it's own mail server and adresses like me@myschool.edu | 18:41 |
| sbalneav | Big project you've got there. :) | 18:42 |
| joerg_ | not that big.... | 18:42 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, and well, I have somebody who would even pay me for it :) | 18:43 |
| joerg_ | sbalneav, I am just trying to find the right starting point. because I don't like to signup another great sourceforge project that nobody knows :P | 18:44 |
| sbalneav | Got some errands to run. I'll be back in a bit. Write up a spec on blueprints, and make a posting to edubuntu-devel. I'm sure you'll have people interested in helping. | 18:44 |
| highvoltage | hey | 18:50 |
| alkisg | joerg_: _some_ of the things you say can be done by the ebox platform. It also has a plugin infrastructure, so if you chose that platform for development, you might be able to add library modules etc. | 18:51 |
| alkisg | They have plugins for mail, for AD/samba integration, for XMPP server with automatic account installation for users etc | 18:52 |
| joerg_ | alkisg, mhhm, let me have a look at it.... | 18:52 |
| alkisg | And you can manage everything from the web UI | 18:52 |
| joerg_ | well.... | 18:55 |
| joerg_ | but is it for the users? | 18:55 |
| joerg_ | looks more like a big web based admin tool :) | 18:56 |
| joerg_ | that is probably a bit overkill for a school | 18:57 |
| joerg_ | a teacher doesn't know what all that stuff is | 18:57 |
| joerg_ | e.g. an ip adress ^ | 18:57 |
| joerg_ | the only administrative stuff they need to do is adding users and groups | 18:57 |
| joerg_ | if you provide them with more functionality they will be confused and not use the tool at all:) | 18:58 |
| === joerg_ is now known as joerg | ||
| dgroos | joerg: just got back... | 19:36 |
| dgroos | Looking at what you said about 1.5 hours ago, it looks like you are looking for an intranet--web based mail and file exchange. I have been using plone cms for that for years and am very pleased with it. | 19:38 |
| dgroos | It's open source, highly active support community, and like other popular cms's it is quite customizable with addons. | 19:39 |
| dgroos | http://plone.org | 19:39 |
| joerg | dgroos, mhhm....are u sure? | 19:40 |
| joerg | does it deal with "real" users? | 19:40 |
| dgroos | also there is an education branch that does tons of edu-stuff, I forgot the name of it--it didn't meet what I needed, haven't checked it recently. | 19:40 |
| dgroos | I'm sure my name is David, beyond that things are up for discussion... ;) | 19:41 |
| joerg | but I don't think I can access my plone stuff on a windows network share when I'm at school? :) | 19:41 |
| joerg | and send my printjobs to plone, get charged and get the job send to a printer near me | 19:41 |
| dgroos | My students are pretty real. They are learning to make web pages, access files in folders I've put on line. | 19:42 |
| joerg | well, but can they access them via samba, ftp, webdav, sftp? :P | 19:42 |
| dgroos | Well, I'm talking about an intranet/extranet server, simply. | 19:43 |
| joerg | dgroos, can they access "mails" you send them in plone with their favorite mail client? | 19:43 |
| joerg | mhhm....but plone is a cms | 19:43 |
| dgroos | If I needed students to access mail and so set up the mail server, for sure. | 19:44 |
| joerg | mhhm | 19:46 |
| dgroos | Plone isn't a front-end for a file system if that's what you mean, at least not really. You work via a browser eg firefox to browse, upload, edit. Hmmmm... If you aren't familiar with cms's lets see if I can find a video... | 19:46 |
| joerg | probably I have a wrong idea about cmses :P | 19:46 |
| joerg | I know what a cms is :D | 19:46 |
| joerg | at least I think so | 19:46 |
| joerg | and that is exactly my point. | 19:47 |
| joerg | I want the filesystem frontend | 19:47 |
| joerg | and the mail server frontend | 19:47 |
| joerg | and real unix users | 19:47 |
| joerg | not a separate user db in some sql db | 19:48 |
| joerg | users want to mount their homedir at school on windows and linux machines | 19:48 |
| joerg | to quickly store heaps of data | 19:48 |
| joerg | and use the web based stuff at home or if they are not logged in to a machine at school | 19:49 |
| dgroos | Sounds cool idea. Isn't this what webdav is? | 19:49 |
| dgroos | got to go... will be back. | 19:49 |
| joerg | yeah | 19:49 |
| alkisg | joerg: ebox does have support for automatic mounting of the users homes, both for linux and windows clients | 19:56 |
| joerg | alkisg, but ebox looks like an overkill admin utility that is not suitable for a normal teacher ;) | 19:59 |
| alkisg | joerg: a teacher won't use *all* of ebox. The admin will. | 20:00 |
| joerg | the admin doesn't need to | 20:00 |
| alkisg | The teacher might use the user management tool, and the non-GUI parts of ebox, e.g. automatic home mounting | 20:00 |
| joerg | mhhm.... | 20:00 |
| joerg | can I remove functionality they don't need? | 20:00 |
| alkisg | Anyway, if you looked at it, and it doesn't suit your needs, I don't think I have anything more to add :) | 20:00 |
| alkisg | It's plugin-based, you only enable the plugins you want | 20:01 |
| joerg | the admin is not a teacher in our case, he knows how to edit config files :P | 20:01 |
| alkisg | Does he know how to set up empathy for every single student? | 20:01 |
| alkisg | Because that is not done by some config file... | 20:01 |
| joerg | well | 20:02 |
| joerg | alkisg, I am quite sure that nobody wants empathy | 20:03 |
| alkisg | Are you really sure? | 20:03 |
| joerg | yes | 20:03 |
| alkisg | Because I think it offers very good collaboration for local networks | 20:03 |
| joerg | we have had heaps of discussions about chats and IM | 20:03 |
| alkisg | E.g. remote control, file sharing etc | 20:03 |
| joerg | with the result that most schools block these services | 20:04 |
| alkisg | Anyway, that was just an example. Another example is that it automatically sets up evolution accounts for the local mail | 20:04 |
| alkisg | So the students/teachers don't need to configure their mail clients | 20:05 |
| alkisg | ...and again that's just an example | 20:05 |
| joerg | well | 20:05 |
| joerg | doesn't fit into our concept :P | 20:06 |
| alkisg | Anyway, I just proposed to see ebox. You saw it, you don't like it, I don't think there's anything more here :) | 20:06 |
| joerg | we think that students should learn and understand how a computer and the internet works. | 20:06 |
| joerg | if they want to use empathy and/or evolution they should read the docs and set it up. | 20:06 |
| joerg | or ask someobody to help them. | 20:07 |
| joerg | alkisg, well, I like it. I just think it is not what they are looking for :) | 20:07 |
| alkisg | ok | 20:07 |
| joerg | need to get access to a demo server | 20:07 |
| joerg | maybe I am wrong. | 20:07 |
| joerg | but the problem is not automating stuff like evolution configuration etc. | 20:08 |
| alkisg | I think the client part is more interesting than the server part | 20:08 |
| joerg | well, that's it | 20:08 |
| joerg | we are only doing the server part | 20:09 |
| alkisg | ok | 20:10 |
| joerg | what they do with their clients....well, that's up to them | 20:10 |
| joerg | but mostly they install a windows xp on it | 20:10 |
| joerg | with open office and firefox | 20:10 |
| joerg | and other free software | 20:10 |
| joerg | and they don't want user profiles | 20:11 |
| joerg | and specific configs | 20:11 |
| joerg | that's overkill | 20:13 |
| joerg | it confuses people | 20:13 |
| joerg | if they login to a machine and they don't have the same background image, symbols on the desktop e.g. than the person next to them :P | 20:14 |
| joerg | alkisg, mhhm.....apart from that: pppoe support comes in 1.4 of ebox :) how should they go online? ^^ | 20:15 |
| joerg | alkisg, I unfortunately can't find the test server - thought there is one somewhere....but ebox really like "admin's little helper" doing a lot of system stuff and not like a collaboration tool for schools :) | 20:16 |
| alkisg | Ah, you were looking for a collaboration tool? I heard about pop3 and ftp and imap and homepage and proxy and samba etc configuration so I probably misunderstood. :) | 20:18 |
| alkisg | Anyway, I just thought I'd mention the idea, I don't think it's worth discussing about ebox anymore... | 20:21 |
| joerg | alkisg, well.....I am not sure :) | 20:30 |
| joerg | alkisg, but yes, you maybe got it a bit wrong. the setup of samba / ftp / proxy is done by the admins. my idea is more a frontend to bundle all the services in a web gui....in the case you don't have your ftp client, mail reader, samba whatever :) e.g. from a netcafe or whatever | 20:32 |
| alkisg | I still don't get it. What could a web front end offer about samba to a netcafe user? | 20:33 |
| joerg | alkisg, collaboration tool with a corporate identity and single sign on to all services ;) | 20:33 |
| joerg | alkisg, nothing. that's why it doesn't need samba stuff :P | 20:33 |
| alkisg | Then why did you mention it? | 20:33 |
| joerg | alkisg, as a user, you have a homedir | 20:33 |
| joerg | you can access it web based when you are in the netcafe | 20:33 |
| joerg | and via samba in the local network | 20:34 |
| alkisg | So that's a web based file manager. What does that have to do with collaboration? | 20:34 |
| joerg | alkisg, because it seemed to be important to me that the webbased thing should be a filesystem frontend.... | 20:34 |
| joerg | alkisg, you can post files in group folders :P | 20:35 |
| joerg | even though that is only a file manager and you could simply use sftp to do the same stuff, it is nice :) | 20:35 |
| joerg | teachers will post assignments and materials in the group folder, students for example stuff they found online or their homework.... | 20:36 |
| alkisg | OK, it's a web file manager and an example of the unix group system :) | 20:37 |
| joerg | yes, absolutely true | 20:37 |
| joerg | alkisg, but it perfectly works in 200 schools here already :P | 20:37 |
| joerg | because it is easy | 20:37 |
| alkisg | You can also do that with nautilus... | 20:38 |
| joerg | yes | 20:38 |
| joerg | if you know how to :) | 20:38 |
| joerg | 99% are using the web based gui | 20:39 |
| alkisg | I'd prefer my students to learn about how to do it with nautilus than with some proprietary tool | 20:39 |
| joerg | even though a sftp client or simply mounting webdav would be a lot faster | 20:39 |
| joerg | it is like this because people are lazy.....:P | 20:39 |
| joerg | alkisg, lol | 20:39 |
| joerg | we are teaching history, maths and stuff | 20:39 |
| joerg | and not: how to install linux and nautilus to avoid our webbased backend | 20:40 |
| joerg | apart from that, maybe one out of a hundred teachers how to do that :P | 20:40 |
| joerg | and even though I know all that stuff, I sometimes use the web frontend.... | 20:41 |
| alkisg | Well, all my hundends of studends know how to use nautilus to access our shared folders, and none uses a web backend. Each teacher applies what methods suits him... np there. | 20:41 |
| joerg | hanging around somewhere, only having a webbrowser and wanting to show somebody a document you got in your homedir | 20:41 |
| alkisg | ok | 20:42 |
| joerg | alkisg, YOUR students | 20:42 |
| joerg | not ALL students | 20:42 |
| joerg | I have no resources to teach students at 200 schools how to use sftp and nautilus | 20:42 |
| alkisg | Yes, because I chose to teach them that, because they could apply that knowledge elsewhere | 20:42 |
| joerg | yes. | 20:43 |
| alkisg | I don't like teaching them things that would be of no use to them when they leave our school... | 20:43 |
| joerg | alkisg, but the problem here is: teachers can't teach stuff like that. | 20:43 |
| joerg | because they know less about computers and internet than their students. | 20:43 |
| alkisg | That's where automation comes in | 20:44 |
| joerg | alkisg, well, anyway | 20:44 |
| joerg | alkisg, I'd teach them concepts and not products | 20:45 |
| alkisg | Anyway, we have a different view about those things. No harm done, let's go on to our jobs... :) | 20:45 |
| joerg | if they know what files and folders are and how network protocols work, they will be able to work with a filemanager | 20:45 |
| joerg | no matter if it is proprietary or not | 20:45 |
| joerg | alkisg, no, we don't have different views :P and it is perfect that you teach nautilus.....but I can't force teachers at 200 schools to learn nautilus and teach it to their students :P | 20:47 |
| alkisg | I have a shortcut on their desktops for that | 20:47 |
| joerg | alkisg, most teachers have no IT skills at all, they use what they know from home and that's their windoze box :P | 20:47 |
| alkisg | joerg: I know, I've been teaching in a lot of schools here. I also know that if it's easy, they'll do it even if it isn't windows. And I know how to make it easy for them. | 20:48 |
| joerg | alkisg, I have no control over students' or teachers' computers and I will never be able to make any shortcut on any desktop :) | 20:48 |
| alkisg | ok | 20:49 |
| joerg | that's the point | 20:49 |
| joerg | I can't control the clients | 20:49 |
| joerg | unless I steal their keys *LOL* | 20:49 |
| joerg | and sneak in at night to make a shortcut to nautilus on their box :) | 20:49 |
| joerg | is nautilus available for windoze btw.? :) | 20:49 |
| alkisg | No | 20:50 |
| joerg | alkisg, well, I can't go to teachers and students homes, knock at the door saying hello I am Jesus and will install linux on your computer now :D | 20:51 |
| alkisg | Neither can I | 20:51 |
| joerg | so you convinced them all? :P | 20:52 |
| alkisg | Are you asking how they'd access their files remotely? | 20:53 |
| joerg | I am talking about it all the time :) | 20:53 |
| joerg | alkisg, that's probably the big misunderstanding we have :P | 20:54 |
| alkisg | Well, there are dozens of existing technologies for that, I don't see why I need to use another, proprietary one... | 20:54 |
| alkisg | And if I wanted to use a proprietary one, I'd probably use dropbox | 20:54 |
| alkisg | It autosynchronizes the files between different OSes | 20:55 |
| joerg | alkisg, I think somehow you don't get the point ^^ | 20:55 |
| joerg | the school is acting as a service provider to the outside world :P | 20:55 |
| alkisg | OK. joerg excuse me, I need to get some work done. Talk to you some other time... | 20:56 |
| joerg | alkisg, he he.....yeah, see you then :P | 20:56 |
| joerg | sbalneav, hey, are u there? ;) | 21:39 |
| joerg | sbalneav, don't u think it would make more sense if I start a new project for that idea? | 21:40 |
| joerg | sbalneav, I could at least imagine that this tool might be used with other distros as well or even be hosted on some shared webspace when the school doesn't have a server... | 21:41 |
| dgroos | alkisg: I spent much of yesterday's 'recordkeeping day' working to get iTALC going. Finally, after removing every trace of 'italc' from my system except for the launchpad stuff. | 22:12 |
| alkisg | So now it's working? nice :) | 22:13 |
| dgroos | well, finally got it working at the end of the day. :D I entered the clients and made the list permanent, quit it and restarted and... it didn't work and had to go! :( | 22:13 |
| dgroos | It had the same, permission kind of errors. I was trying to run it on the server via NX. | 22:14 |
| dgroos | Well... | 22:14 |
| dgroos | I went in this morning to try to get the scanner working and to feed the snake (I'm teaching biology) and for some reason, I tried to start iTALC on the client. I knew it wouldn't work because I had only installed it on the server. | 22:15 |
| dgroos | Of course it then worked, running on a thin client! How?! I don't get that program I think. | 22:16 |
| dgroos | So, anyway, I'm happy user of the tool though remain in a confused state which I'm trying to ignore :) | 22:16 |
| dgroos | Shouldn't it not work on a client? | 22:17 |
| alkisg | It should work wherever you sit, be it on the server or on a client | 22:19 |
| dgroos | ? I thought you had to do a client install to be able to use it on a client. I know that the client install was also so that you could work with clients even when no one was logged in to them. | 22:22 |
| alkisg | The first one is not true | 22:23 |
| alkisg | The second one is true | 22:23 |
| dgroos | Anyway, I'm really *really* REALLY glad it is working :D | 22:23 |
| dgroos | right. | 22:24 |
| alkisg | But not exactly... e.g. you *can* power on the clients even if you don't have italc installed on them | 22:24 |
| dgroos | ? how? | 22:24 |
| alkisg | (but that's all you can do when the user is not logged on :D) | 22:24 |
| alkisg | You just need to save the list of clients | 22:25 |
| dgroos | Do I need to add MAC addresses? | 22:25 |
| alkisg | I think it does that automatically | 22:26 |
| alkisg | So if you run it once while the clients are logged on, | 22:26 |
| alkisg | and then close italc, | 22:26 |
| alkisg | and then open its xml file and rename the "autodetected computers" classroom to "dgross classroom", | 22:26 |
| alkisg | then you have your list ready | 22:26 |
| stgraber | you can rename the classroom from the UI too | 22:26 |
| alkisg | Oooh even better | 22:27 |
| dgroos | Only last fall did I ever get the autodetected computers to auto-detect. I've had iTALC working twice since then (including now) and the auto-detect feature didn't work. So, I entered in the computers 'by hand'. | 22:28 |
| alkisg | Ouch | 22:28 |
| alkisg | Are you logged on now? Can you try stuff? | 22:29 |
| dgroos | I've saved the list and put in the suggested location and made the [path] addition so they all are there now. | 22:29 |
| dgroos | Well, I'm at home at the moment, but I could NX to the server from here via vpn. would that work? | 22:30 |
| alkisg | Sure, if there are clients logged on currently... | 22:30 |
| dgroos | :( I think I've logged off both computers. | 22:31 |
| dgroos | thanks though! | 22:31 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!