[01:38] <sbalneav> stgraber: M'aidaiz!
[01:45] <sbalneav> hmmm, not good
[02:23] <sbalneav> Well, *THAT* sucked.
[02:38] <dgroos> *THAT* being...?
[02:39] <sbalneav> Machine locked up
[02:39] <sbalneav> When I rebooted, machine wouldn't boot.
[02:39] <sbalneav> period
[02:39] <sbalneav> turns out, my bios had gotten a checksum error, and had reset itself
[02:39] <sbalneav> so my bios clock was back to 2007
[02:40] <sbalneav> fsck wouldn't allow the system to boot, since the time that the last mount happened was in the future.
[02:40] <sbalneav> Took me an hour to realize what was going on.
[03:09] <dgroos> Didn't know that could happen...
[03:11] <dgroos> How did you finally crack it? Was the Bios still able to do its thing and you then just changed it?
[03:33] <sbalneav> Took me a while to turn off the *&%($(&^$( graphical boot
[03:33] <sbalneav> once I did that, I saw what the error message was.
[03:33] <sbalneav> Then I fixed it.
[16:23] <joerg> hi
[16:29] <joerg> does edubuntu have or plan to include a web gui to make collaboration easier?
[16:54] <dgroos> joerg: can you elaborate?
[16:55] <dgroos> I'll be in and out of here randomly but will be checking...
[17:04] <joerg> dgroos, well, we have about 200 schools here using linux servers for tasks like: samba, ftp, imap, homepage, proxy (filtered), etc. - and students and teacher have a nice web gui where they can read mail, upload files and share them in groups, etc.
[17:04] <joerg> dgroos, and I wonder if something like that is planned for edubuntu as well
[17:05] <joerg> because we are looking for an open source solution to do the same stuff....:)
[18:06] <sbalneav> joerg_: Both egroupware and phpgroupware are in the repositories and can be installed and configured
[18:07] <joerg_> sbalneav, yeah and many other stuff :)
[18:08] <joerg_> phpgroupware is not a web gui that focuses on a school's needs :P
[18:10] <sbalneav> Well, what are the schools you're talking about using?
[18:10] <sbalneav> We also have moodle.
[18:13] <sbalneav> joerg_: Any idea what the schools you're talking about are using?
[18:14] <joerg_> iserv
[18:14] <joerg_> :P
[18:16] <sbalneav> Not seeing it in any of the repos.  Got a homepage reference for it?  Maybe it just needs packaging?
[18:24] <sbalneav> joerg_: I'm not sure exactly what your requirements are, or what you're wanting this software to do.  If this is something that doesn't currently exist, that you'd like a Fee Software equivalent, then what I'd suggest is posting to the edubuntu-devel list with a set of requirement.
[18:25] <sbalneav> At that point, we could work on a blueprint for what you'd like the project to do exactly, then it could be looked at as something that could be written.
[18:25] <joerg_> sbalneav, www.iserv.eu - but it is german only.
[18:27] <joerg_> sbalneav, well, I don't need somebody to develop it ;)
[18:27] <joerg_> I just wanted to know if somebody has it as free software and I simply haven't found it or if somebody likes the idea and wanna join the developer team ;)
[18:28] <sbalneav> So this iServ isn't Free software?
[18:28] <joerg_> sbalneav, the concept of that iserv is basically: a debian based linux distribution that is easy to install and preconfigured. that's what we do not need.....because we have edubuntu.
[18:28] <joerg_> no it isnot.
[18:29] <joerg_> anyway: after you have this iserv running: you have one and only one web gui to do everything.
[18:30] <joerg_> as an "admin" you can add new students and teachers and put them in groups, but you don't have to be root
[18:30] <joerg_> even though they get a normal user account
[18:31] <joerg_> there are group folders stored in /group/myclass - accessible by all group members (rw) via the web gui and samba, ftp.
[18:31] <joerg_> as well as your own homedir of course.
[18:32] <joerg_> then you can read and write mail from username@myschool.edu
[18:32] <joerg_> your mailbox is accessible by imap and pop3 as well
[18:33] <joerg_> you can manage your contacts, appointments, etc. - the normal groupware stuff.
[18:33] <joerg_> teachers can block internet access to all computers in the classroom
[18:33] <sbalneav> Well, as for the user admin tool, we have a spec for that:
[18:33] <sbalneav> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Specifications/NewUserAdminTool
[18:34] <joerg_> students can print out documents and pay for it.
[18:34] <sbalneav> The web mail bit can be handled by any one of a number of webmail clients available
[18:35] <sbalneav> blocking internet access is fairly easy with LTSP
[18:36] <sbalneav> Don't know off the top of my head about the printing.  I know cups has accounting, you'd just need some kind of web interface to it.
[18:36] <joerg_> sbalneav, but we don't want a tool here and a tool there.
[18:36] <joerg_> we have got that iserv stuff on 200 servers for only one reason: you can do everything you need in one place.
[18:36] <sbalneav> joerg_: Then you'll have to help get involved with us in writing one :)
[18:36] <joerg_> indeed.
[18:36] <joerg_> that's what I am trying to do :)
[18:36] <sbalneav> Because currently, there isn't a Free software tool that does all that.
[18:37] <joerg_> sbalneav, my idea is: an all in one web based gui
[18:37] <joerg_> that can load modules
[18:38] <joerg_> e.g.: the school is running that tool, it is themed with a common look and feel, provides a "welcome page", does the auth and builds a navigation tree.
[18:38] <sbalneav> Sounds great.  Write up a spec on launchpad's Blueprints section.
[18:38] <joerg_> sbalneav, ok ;)
[18:38] <joerg_> so basically, the admin can say: ok, the school has a library, I want the library module
[18:39] <joerg_> and voila....the navigation tree shows a link "library" and students can search the library for books
[18:39] <joerg_> get notifications by mail if they have to return a book immediately
[18:39] <joerg_> or build a list with their favorite books
[18:40] <joerg_> or mark that they would like to borrow a certain book after somebody who is reading it atm has returned it.
[18:40] <joerg_> that would be one example for a module
[18:41] <joerg_> sbalneav, the mail module could provide a simple imap client - depending on the configuration, it could simply access gmail servers.
[18:41] <joerg_> or the school has it's own mail server and adresses like me@myschool.edu
[18:42] <sbalneav> Big project you've got there. :)
[18:42] <joerg_> not that big....
[18:43] <joerg_> sbalneav, and well, I have somebody who would even pay me for it :)
[18:44] <joerg_> sbalneav, I am just trying to find the right starting point. because I don't like to signup another great sourceforge project that nobody knows :P
[18:44] <sbalneav> Got some errands to run.  I'll be back in a bit.  Write up a spec on blueprints, and make a posting to edubuntu-devel.  I'm sure you'll have people interested in helping.
[18:50] <highvoltage> hey
[18:51] <alkisg> joerg_: _some_ of the things you say can be done by the ebox platform. It also has a plugin infrastructure, so if you chose that platform for development, you might be able to add library modules etc.
[18:52] <alkisg> They have plugins for mail, for AD/samba integration, for XMPP server with automatic account installation for users etc
[18:52] <joerg_> alkisg, mhhm, let me have a look at it....
[18:52] <alkisg> And you can manage everything from the web UI
[18:55] <joerg_> well....
[18:55] <joerg_> but is it for the users?
[18:56] <joerg_> looks more like a big web based admin tool :)
[18:57] <joerg_> that is probably a bit overkill for a school
[18:57] <joerg_> a teacher doesn't know what all that stuff is
[18:57] <joerg_> e.g. an ip adress ^
[18:57] <joerg_> the only administrative stuff they need to do is adding users and groups
[18:58] <joerg_> if you provide them with more functionality they will be confused and not use the tool at all:)
[19:36] <dgroos> joerg: just got back...
[19:38] <dgroos> Looking at what you said about 1.5 hours ago, it looks like you are looking for an intranet--web based mail and file exchange.  I have been using plone cms for that for years and am very pleased with it.
[19:39] <dgroos> It's open source, highly active support community, and like other popular cms's it is quite customizable with addons.
[19:39] <dgroos> http://plone.org
[19:40] <joerg> dgroos, mhhm....are u sure?
[19:40] <joerg> does it deal with "real" users?
[19:40] <dgroos> also there is an education branch that does tons of edu-stuff, I forgot the name of it--it didn't meet what I needed, haven't checked it recently.
[19:41] <dgroos> I'm sure my name is David, beyond that things are up for discussion... ;)
[19:41] <joerg> but I don't think I can access my plone stuff on a windows network share when I'm at school? :)
[19:41] <joerg> and send my printjobs to plone, get charged and get the job send to a printer near me
[19:42] <dgroos> My students are pretty real.  They are learning to make web pages, access files in folders I've put on line.
[19:42] <joerg> well, but can they access them via samba, ftp, webdav, sftp? :P
[19:43] <dgroos> Well, I'm talking about an intranet/extranet server, simply.
[19:43] <joerg> dgroos, can they access "mails" you send them in plone with their favorite mail client?
[19:43] <joerg> mhhm....but plone is a cms
[19:44] <dgroos> If I needed students to access mail and so set up the mail server, for sure.
[19:46] <joerg> mhhm
[19:46] <dgroos> Plone isn't a front-end for a file system if that's what you mean, at least not really.  You work via a browser eg firefox to browse, upload, edit.  Hmmmm... If you aren't familiar with cms's lets see if I can find a video...
[19:46] <joerg> probably I have a wrong idea about cmses :P
[19:46] <joerg> I know what a cms is :D
[19:46] <joerg> at least I think so
[19:47] <joerg> and that is exactly my point.
[19:47] <joerg> I want the filesystem frontend
[19:47] <joerg> and the mail server frontend
[19:47] <joerg> and real unix users
[19:48] <joerg> not a separate user db in some sql db
[19:48] <joerg> users want to mount their homedir at school on windows and linux machines
[19:48] <joerg> to quickly store heaps of data
[19:49] <joerg> and use the web based stuff at home or if they are not logged in to a machine at school
[19:49] <dgroos> Sounds cool idea.  Isn't this what webdav is?
[19:49] <dgroos> got to go... will be back.
[19:49] <joerg> yeah
[19:56] <alkisg> joerg: ebox does have support for automatic mounting of the users homes, both for linux and windows clients
[19:59] <joerg> alkisg, but ebox looks like an overkill admin utility that is not suitable for a normal teacher ;)
[20:00] <alkisg> joerg: a teacher won't use *all* of ebox. The admin will.
[20:00] <joerg> the admin doesn't need to
[20:00] <alkisg> The teacher might use the user management tool, and the non-GUI parts of ebox, e.g. automatic home mounting
[20:00] <joerg> mhhm....
[20:00] <joerg> can I remove functionality they don't need?
[20:00] <alkisg> Anyway, if you looked at it, and it doesn't suit your needs, I don't think I have anything more to add :)
[20:01] <alkisg> It's plugin-based, you only enable the plugins you want
[20:01] <joerg> the admin is not a teacher in our case, he knows how to edit config files :P
[20:01] <alkisg> Does he know how to set up empathy for every single student?
[20:01] <alkisg> Because that is not done by some config file...
[20:02] <joerg> well
[20:03] <joerg> alkisg, I am quite sure that nobody wants empathy
[20:03] <alkisg> Are you really sure?
[20:03] <joerg> yes
[20:03] <alkisg> Because I think it offers very good collaboration for local networks
[20:03] <joerg> we have had heaps of discussions about chats and IM
[20:03] <alkisg> E.g. remote control, file sharing etc
[20:04] <joerg> with the result that most schools block these services
[20:04] <alkisg> Anyway, that was just an example. Another example is that it automatically sets up evolution accounts for the local mail
[20:05] <alkisg> So the students/teachers don't need to configure their mail clients
[20:05] <alkisg> ...and again that's just an example
[20:05] <joerg> well
[20:06] <joerg> doesn't fit into our concept :P
[20:06] <alkisg> Anyway, I just proposed to see ebox. You saw it, you don't like it, I don't think there's anything more here :)
[20:06] <joerg> we think that students should learn and understand how a computer and the internet works.
[20:06] <joerg> if they want to use empathy and/or evolution they should read the docs and set it up.
[20:07] <joerg> or ask someobody to help them.
[20:07] <joerg> alkisg, well, I like it. I just think it is not what they are looking for :)
[20:07] <alkisg> ok
[20:07] <joerg> need to get access to a demo server
[20:07] <joerg> maybe I am wrong.
[20:08] <joerg> but the problem is not automating stuff like evolution configuration etc.
[20:08] <alkisg> I think the client part is more interesting than the server part
[20:08] <joerg> well, that's it
[20:09] <joerg> we are only doing the server part
[20:10] <alkisg> ok
[20:10] <joerg> what they do with their clients....well, that's up to them
[20:10] <joerg> but mostly they install a windows xp on it
[20:10] <joerg> with open office and firefox
[20:10] <joerg> and other free software
[20:11] <joerg> and they don't want user profiles
[20:11] <joerg> and specific configs
[20:13] <joerg> that's overkill
[20:13] <joerg> it confuses people
[20:14] <joerg> if they login to a machine and they don't have the same background image, symbols on the desktop e.g. than the person next to them :P
[20:15] <joerg> alkisg, mhhm.....apart from that: pppoe support comes in 1.4 of ebox :) how should they go online? ^^
[20:16] <joerg> alkisg, I unfortunately can't find the test server - thought there is one somewhere....but ebox really like "admin's little helper" doing a lot of system stuff and not like a collaboration tool for schools :)
[20:18] <alkisg> Ah, you were looking for a collaboration tool? I heard about pop3 and ftp and imap and homepage and proxy and samba etc configuration so I probably misunderstood. :)
[20:21] <alkisg> Anyway, I just thought I'd mention the idea, I don't think it's worth discussing about ebox anymore...
[20:30] <joerg> alkisg, well.....I am not sure :)
[20:32] <joerg> alkisg, but yes, you maybe got it a bit wrong. the setup of samba / ftp / proxy is done by the admins. my idea is more a frontend to bundle all the services in a web gui....in the case you don't have your ftp client, mail reader, samba whatever :) e.g. from a netcafe or whatever
[20:33] <alkisg> I still don't get it. What could a web front end offer about samba to a netcafe user?
[20:33] <joerg> alkisg, collaboration tool with a corporate identity and single sign on to all services ;)
[20:33] <joerg> alkisg, nothing. that's why it doesn't need samba stuff :P
[20:33] <alkisg> Then why did you mention it?
[20:33] <joerg> alkisg, as a user, you have a homedir
[20:33] <joerg> you can access it web based when you are in the netcafe
[20:34] <joerg> and via samba in the local network
[20:34] <alkisg> So that's a web based file manager. What does that have to do with collaboration?
[20:34] <joerg> alkisg, because it seemed to be important to me that the webbased thing should be a filesystem frontend....
[20:35] <joerg> alkisg, you can post files in group folders :P
[20:35] <joerg> even though that is only a file manager and you could simply use sftp to do the same stuff, it is nice :)
[20:36] <joerg> teachers will post assignments and materials in the group folder, students for example stuff they found online or their homework....
[20:37] <alkisg> OK, it's a web file manager and an example of the unix group system :)
[20:37] <joerg> yes, absolutely true
[20:37] <joerg> alkisg, but it perfectly works in 200 schools here already :P
[20:37] <joerg> because it is easy
[20:38] <alkisg> You can also do that with nautilus...
[20:38] <joerg> yes
[20:38] <joerg> if you know how to :)
[20:39] <joerg> 99% are using the web based gui
[20:39] <alkisg> I'd prefer my students to learn about how to do it with nautilus than with some proprietary tool
[20:39] <joerg> even though a sftp client or simply mounting webdav would be a lot faster
[20:39] <joerg> it is like this because people are lazy.....:P
[20:39] <joerg> alkisg, lol
[20:39] <joerg> we are teaching history, maths and stuff
[20:40] <joerg> and not: how to install linux and nautilus to avoid our webbased backend
[20:40] <joerg> apart from that, maybe one out of a hundred teachers how to do that :P
[20:41] <joerg> and even though I know all that stuff, I sometimes use the web frontend....
[20:41] <alkisg> Well, all my hundends of studends know how to use nautilus to access our shared folders, and none uses a web backend. Each teacher applies what methods suits him... np there.
[20:41] <joerg> hanging around somewhere, only having a webbrowser and wanting to show somebody a document you got in your homedir
[20:42] <alkisg> ok
[20:42] <joerg> alkisg, YOUR students
[20:42] <joerg> not ALL students
[20:42] <joerg> I have no resources to teach students at 200 schools how to use sftp and nautilus
[20:42] <alkisg> Yes, because I chose to teach them that, because they could apply that knowledge elsewhere
[20:43] <joerg> yes.
[20:43] <alkisg> I don't like teaching them things that would be of no use to them when they leave our school...
[20:43] <joerg> alkisg, but the problem here is: teachers can't teach stuff like that.
[20:43] <joerg> because they know less about computers and internet than their students.
[20:44] <alkisg> That's where automation comes in
[20:44] <joerg> alkisg, well, anyway
[20:45] <joerg> alkisg, I'd teach them concepts and not products
[20:45] <alkisg> Anyway, we have a different view about those things. No harm done, let's go on to our jobs... :)
[20:45] <joerg> if they know what files and folders are and how network protocols work, they will be able to work with a filemanager
[20:45] <joerg> no matter if it is proprietary or not
[20:47] <joerg> alkisg, no, we don't have different views :P and it is perfect that you teach nautilus.....but I can't force teachers at 200 schools to learn nautilus and teach it to their students :P
[20:47] <alkisg> I have a shortcut on their desktops for that
[20:47] <joerg> alkisg, most teachers have no IT skills at all, they use what they know from home and that's their windoze box :P
[20:48] <alkisg> joerg: I know, I've been teaching in a lot of schools here. I also know that if it's easy, they'll do it even if it isn't windows. And I know how to make it easy for them.
[20:48] <joerg> alkisg, I have no control over students' or teachers' computers and I will never be able to make any shortcut on any desktop :)
[20:49] <alkisg> ok
[20:49] <joerg> that's the point
[20:49] <joerg> I can't control the clients
[20:49] <joerg> unless I steal their keys *LOL*
[20:49] <joerg> and sneak in at night to make a shortcut to nautilus on their box :)
[20:49] <joerg> is nautilus available for windoze btw.? :)
[20:50] <alkisg> No
[20:51] <joerg> alkisg, well, I can't go to teachers and students homes, knock at the door saying hello I am Jesus and will install linux on your computer now :D
[20:51] <alkisg> Neither can I
[20:52] <joerg> so you convinced them all? :P
[20:53] <alkisg> Are you asking how they'd access their files remotely?
[20:53] <joerg> I am talking about it all the time :)
[20:54] <joerg> alkisg, that's probably the big misunderstanding we have :P
[20:54] <alkisg> Well, there are dozens of existing technologies for that, I don't see why I need to use another, proprietary one...
[20:54] <alkisg> And if I wanted to use a proprietary one, I'd probably use dropbox
[20:55] <alkisg> It autosynchronizes the files between different OSes
[20:55] <joerg> alkisg, I think somehow you don't get the point ^^
[20:55] <joerg> the school is acting as a service provider to the outside world :P
[20:56] <alkisg> OK. joerg excuse me, I need to get some work done. Talk to you some other time...
[20:56] <joerg> alkisg, he he.....yeah, see you then :P
[21:39] <joerg> sbalneav, hey, are u there? ;)
[21:40] <joerg> sbalneav, don't u think it would make more sense if I start a new project for that idea?
[21:41] <joerg> sbalneav, I could at least imagine that this tool might be used with other distros as well or even be hosted on some shared webspace when the school doesn't have a server...
[22:12] <dgroos> alkisg: I spent much of yesterday's 'recordkeeping day' working to get iTALC going.  Finally, after removing every trace of 'italc' from my system except for the launchpad stuff.
[22:13] <alkisg> So now it's working? nice :)
[22:13] <dgroos> well, finally got it working at the end of the day. :D I entered the clients and made the list permanent, quit it and restarted and... it didn't work and had to go! :(
[22:14] <dgroos> It had the same, permission kind of errors.  I was trying to run it on the server via NX.
[22:14] <dgroos> Well...
[22:15] <dgroos> I went in this morning to try to get the scanner working and to feed the snake (I'm teaching biology) and for some reason, I tried to start iTALC on the client.  I knew it wouldn't work because I had only installed it on the server.
[22:16] <dgroos> Of course it then worked, running on a thin client!  How?!  I don't get that program I think.
[22:16] <dgroos> So, anyway, I'm happy user of the tool though remain in a confused state which I'm trying to ignore :)
[22:17] <dgroos> Shouldn't it not work on a client?
[22:19] <alkisg> It should work wherever you sit, be it on the server or on a client
[22:22] <dgroos> ?  I thought you had to do a client install to be able to use it on a client.  I know that the client install was also so that you could work with clients even when no one was logged in to them.
[22:23] <alkisg> The first one is not true
[22:23] <alkisg> The second one is true
[22:23] <dgroos> Anyway, I'm really *really* REALLY glad it is working :D
[22:24] <dgroos> right.
[22:24] <alkisg> But not exactly... e.g. you *can* power on the clients even if you don't have italc installed on them
[22:24] <dgroos> ? how?
[22:24] <alkisg> (but that's all you can do when the user is not logged on :D)
[22:25] <alkisg> You just need to save the list of clients
[22:25] <dgroos> Do I need to add MAC addresses?
[22:26] <alkisg> I think it does that automatically
[22:26] <alkisg> So if you run it once while the clients are logged on,
[22:26] <alkisg> and then close italc,
[22:26] <alkisg> and then open its xml file and rename the "autodetected computers" classroom to "dgross classroom",
[22:26] <alkisg> then you have your list ready
[22:26] <stgraber> you can rename the classroom from the UI too
[22:27] <alkisg> Oooh even better
[22:28] <dgroos> Only last fall did I ever get the autodetected computers to auto-detect.  I've had iTALC working twice since then (including now) and the auto-detect feature didn't work.  So, I entered in the computers 'by hand'.
[22:28] <alkisg> Ouch
[22:29] <alkisg> Are you logged on now? Can you try stuff?
[22:29] <dgroos> I've saved the list and put in the suggested location and made the [path] addition so they all are there now.
[22:30] <dgroos> Well, I'm at home at the moment, but I could NX to the server from here via vpn.  would that work?
[22:30] <alkisg> Sure, if there are clients logged on currently...
[22:31] <dgroos> :( I think I've logged off both computers.
[22:31] <dgroos> thanks though!