[02:11] <humphreybc> dutchie: ping
[21:26] <dutchie> !ping
[21:26] <manualbot> Here I am, brain the size of a planet and you expect me to respond to a ping? How depressing.
[22:04] <godbyk> Are these the only languages the manual will be translated to? https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
[22:05] <dutchie> it will be translated to whatever languages people translate it to
[22:05] <dutchie> godbyk: are you doing some sort of automation?
[22:06] <dutchie> that is the list of what's been done so far
[22:06] <godbyk> I ask because I need to make sure I've selected a typeface that can support all the required characters.
[22:06] <dutchie> I think we've got all the languages with awkward characters there ;)
[22:06] <godbyk> And I need to make sure that the LaTeX packages we're using (just babel, so far) are aware of those languages.
[22:06] <dutchie> greek, chinese, cyrillic...
[22:07] <godbyk> dutchie: That covers the common ones, yeah. :)
[22:07]  * dutchie updates the translations
[22:08] <godbyk> Also, to the graphic designers and/or humphreybc: Did we figure out the audience, context, and tone yet?
[22:09] <humphreybc> for the title? nope. I haven't had much time, title page aint high on my priorities at the moment
[22:10] <humphreybc> Audience = new users, context = manual, tone = soft and welcoming?
[22:10] <humphreybc> I'm not quite sure what Thorsten is actually asking for
[22:10] <godbyk> Well, those questions affect the interior design of the manual, as well.
[22:10] <dutchie> humphreybc: you pinged about 20 hours ago?
[22:11] <humphreybc> dutchie: oh yeah I was just going to ask if you knew how to set up a planet
[22:11] <dutchie> I've never done one, but I can't imagine it being difficult
[22:11] <godbyk> humphreybc: If you think of how the books you read look on the inside, it varies depending on the tone you want to set.
[22:11] <humphreybc> godbyk: they do. I don't have a problem with the current style/tone.. I think it looks good. We can discuss this stuff next weekend in the meeting
[22:11] <godbyk> Reference manuals don't use handwritten-style fonts, but a quirkier getting-started guide might.
[22:12] <humphreybc> I don't think handwritten font is a good idea :P
[22:12] <humphreybc> The font you're using now looks good, although maybe a Sans-serif might be a better choice. It gives a good balance between formal in and informal without being too amateur looking, if you know what I mean
[22:13] <humphreybc> How soon must you know what font we're going to use for the final release?
[22:14] <humphreybc> dutchie: Planet Ubuntu Manual?
[22:14] <dutchie> do we have a domain?
[22:14] <humphreybc> nope
[22:14] <godbyk> humphreybc: It'd be nice to get it selected earlier rather than later, because other design elements depend on it.
[22:15] <humphreybc> perhaps it would be best to fire some proposals at the mailing list then. Because obviously there are certain fonts we can use, right?
[22:16] <humphreybc> dutchie: I could host it on my server if you walk me through setting it up. domains are about $40, I don't mind paying for one that much
[22:16] <humphreybc> Either that or you could use your VPS
[22:16] <dutchie> $40?
[22:16] <dutchie> that's quite a lot
[22:16] <humphreybc> $40 NZD to buy a domain
[22:16] <godbyk> dutchie: I was thinking that, too.  I get mine for US$10.
[22:17] <godbyk> (not sure what the USD-NZD exchange rate is, though.)
[22:17] <dutchie> my .co.uk's about £2.50 for 3 years or so
[22:17] <humphreybc> wow
[22:17] <humphreybc> perhaps it would be cheaper for one of you guys to get it
[22:17] <dutchie> NZ must be one of those countries with dreadfully expensive registrars
[22:17] <humphreybc> only if you want though
[22:17] <humphreybc> Anything IT-related in NZ is hugely expensive
[22:18] <humphreybc> what sort of domain would we want
[22:18] <humphreybc> ?
[22:19] <dutchie> .org?
[22:19] <dutchie> do we really need a domain?
[22:19] <humphreybc> how else could we do it?
[22:20] <dutchie> we could just use a subdomain off one of our personal ones
[22:20] <humphreybc> well that would be better
[22:20] <humphreybc> I've got www.interesting.co.nz
[22:21] <dutchie> ubuntu-manual.interesting.co.nz/planet?
[22:21] <humphreybc> I don't mind hosting it on my server, but it's only local at the moment - and i'm not sure how fast our upload speeds would be across the world. Although we probably don't need blazingly fast speeds for a planet
[22:22] <humphreybc> or even just planet.interesting.co.nz ?
[22:22] <dutchie> you don't have to host it even if it's on your domain
[22:22] <humphreybc> Oh neat, so you could host on the VPS?
[22:22] <dutchie> with a bit of DNS fun :)
[22:23] <humphreybc> cool. Who has blogs that we can aggregate? mine, yours, godbyk, IlyaHaykinson, vish, jmburgess - you guys got blogs?
[22:23] <godbyk> Erm, sure: http://kevin.godby.org/
[22:23] <godbyk> I should write more. :-/
[22:24] <dutchie> screw you, gnome-shell
[22:25] <dutchie> shall we do it then?
[22:26] <humphreybc> dutchie, we shall
[22:26] <humphreybc> and yeah, gnome-shell.. ugh i tried that the other day, crashed my computer. i was like COOL
[22:27] <dutchie> heh, planet perl is run on a python based planet system
[22:27] <humphreybc> what do you need to know from me re: the domain stuff?
[22:27] <humphreybc> hahaha
[22:27] <dutchie> I'll get back to you when I've got it working
[22:28] <humphreybc> gnarly :)
[22:37] <dutchie> http://planet.joshh.co.uk
[22:38] <humphreybc> that was fast
[22:38] <dutchie> :)
[22:38] <dutchie> give me some more RSS feeds
[22:38] <humphreybc> k hang on one sec
[22:38] <dutchie> and a css file
[22:39] <humphreybc> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/category/linux/
[22:39] <humphreybc> you can grab the feed from there for now
[22:39] <humphreybc> i'll make another category for the manual
[22:40] <godbyk> http://kevin.godby.org/ nothing manual- or ubuntu-specific there yet, though.  mostly hci and typography stuff.
[22:41] <dutchie> feed link/
[22:41] <dutchie> s|/|?|
[22:42] <dutchie> ah, nm found one
[22:42] <humphreybc> try this instead: http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/category/ubuntu-manual/
[22:42] <humphreybc> i'm not sure what the feed is for that
[22:42] <humphreybc> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/category/ubuntu-manual/feed maybe
[22:44] <humphreybc> let me know when you've added it and i'll try a test post
[22:45] <dutchie> it should pick up the old ones
[22:45] <dutchie> yep, it has
[22:46] <humphreybc> oh swell
[22:46] <dutchie> anybody who fancies themselves at web design can send me a CSS file
[22:47] <humphreybc> haha it's been ages since I did CSS
[22:47] <humphreybc> I don't have time at the moment, got two exams on tuesday I really am under prepared for
[22:47]  * dutchie will throw together something for now
[22:48] <dutchie> humphreybc: do you want to aim planet.interesting.co.nz at it then?
[22:48] <humphreybc> sure i'll give that a shot
[22:48] <dutchie> how is the DNS done?
[22:49] <godbyk> I'm headed over to a friend's house to hang out with his kids.  I'll be back in a few hours if anyone needs anything from me.
[22:49] <humphreybc> ok cool
[22:50] <humphreybc> dutchie at the moment my domain is registered with freeparking.co.nz, the DNS servers are ns.freeparking.co.nz and ns2.freeparking.co.nz
[22:50] <humphreybc> the domain interesting.co.nz is forwarded to humphreybc.wordpress.com
[22:50] <dutchie> can you tell them to forward planet.?
[22:51] <humphreybc> I can't see an option for sub domains, but I can email them
[22:51] <dutchie> yeah, have a go at that :)
[22:52] <humphreybc> so where do I want it to be redirected? planet.joshh.co.uk?
[22:52] <dutchie> yeah
[22:53] <humphreybc> okay well apparently there is a guy working sundays to respond to emial
[22:53] <humphreybc> so we'll see
[22:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> i just received a copy of the manual that came with Windows 95.
[22:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> i remember it was quite revolutionary at the time
[22:54] <humphreybc> hehe
[22:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> because they squeezed it into 95 pages
[22:54] <humphreybc> does 7 come with a manual?
[22:54] <humphreybc> is it 7 pages long?
[22:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, i don't know. don't have a box for 7. but i think even XP didn't have a manual.
[22:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> just a three-fold thingie that held the CD
[22:54] <humphreybc> The manual for Windows 2000 would have taken a while to write.
[22:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> and had _some_ instructions for installing
[22:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> most help these days is online, or in the form of stand-alone books.
[22:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> but the Win95 manual is interesting.
[22:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> i'll study it some more, to see if some of the lessons are applicable.
[22:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> one thing that's funny is how little it talks about internet connectivity
[22:56] <humphreybc> ha
[22:56] <humphreybc> shows how much stuff has changed
[22:56] <IlyaHaykinson_> how much it required from users, at the time (the pre-installation instructinos talked about backing up files mentioned in autoexec.bat and config.sys... can you imagine ppl following those kinds of instructions now?)
[22:57] <IlyaHaykinson_> and how images and videos are barely mentioned (nobody had digital cameras, really)
[22:57] <humphreybc> dutchie, how much do you pay for your VPS/
[22:57] <IlyaHaykinson_> or how CD-ROMs are barely mentioned, and of course no mention of burning disks :)
[22:57] <humphreybc> heh, interesting stuff
[22:57] <IlyaHaykinson_> btw, you saw my use of the Firefox help docs?
[22:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> it's requiring a bit of editing, but it's a good structure and it'll work for our needs
[22:58] <humphreybc> haven't yet, will check it now
[22:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> plus the license is compatible
[22:58] <dutchie> humphreybc: £80/year
[22:58] <humphreybc> how much space do you get?
[22:59] <dutchie> http://bitfolk.com/plans.html bottom spec :)
[22:59] <humphreybc> check out the pricing here :O http://www.freeparking.co.nz/hosting/vps
[22:59] <dutchie> wow
[23:00] <humphreybc> 4GB space INCLUDING the OS, 10GB a month traffic... for $70 NZD a _month_
[23:00] <humphreybc> expensivvvvvvvve
[23:00] <humphreybc> it would be cheaper to host on a home server and then just get a better internet plan
[23:01] <humphreybc> dutchie, do you want to email me the CSS file for the planet of what you have so far and i'll have a play
[23:02] <humphreybc> study = meh
[23:02] <dutchie> http://planet.joshh.co.uk/planet.css
[23:02] <dutchie> <-- worst person in the world at web design
[23:03] <humphreybc> nice CSS!
[23:03] <humphreybc> lol
[23:05] <IlyaHaykinson_> i think we need more writers.
[23:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> i got three people to volunteer on Chapter 4
[23:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> of which one is already writing chapter 7
[23:07] <humphreybc> what can I use in Ubuntu to preview CSS?
[23:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> one has intermediate english skills
[23:07] <dutchie> a browser?
[23:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> and one has intermediate linux skills
[23:07] <dutchie> IlyaHaykinson_: between them, they're fine :)
[23:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> we're 17 days from alpha, i think we need more than that.
[23:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> more than two people, basically
[23:08] <IlyaHaykinson_> i'm going to put out an invitation to the technical writing mailing list... maybe someone wants to pad their CV and help out
[23:09] <humphreybc> god it's been so long since I wrote CSS
[23:09] <humphreybc> Ilya, that sounds like a plan
[23:09] <dutchie> humphreybc: I'm pretty sure that you can use firebug or some such to apply custom CSS to a webpage
[23:10] <humphreybc> i'll give it a go
[23:10] <humphreybc> what's the name of the header text?
[23:10] <humphreybc> .headertext or something
[23:10] <humphreybc> ?
[23:11] <dutchie> look at the HTML source
[23:11] <humphreybc> dont worry firebug is exactly what i want :)
[23:12] <humphreybc> just like dreamweaver :P
[23:17] <IlyaHaykinson_> anyone have Firefox without any tab extensions installed?
[23:18] <IlyaHaykinson_> can you tell me if the last tab is closeable, by default?
[23:23] <humphreybc> so wait, dutchie just to remind me - if I want to attach a CSS style to h1, is it just .h1 { stuff } ?
[23:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: H1 {stuff }
[23:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> .h1 applies to anything with <... class="h1">
[23:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> you could also have <h1 class="foo">blah</h1>   and then have a class .foo { stuff} which applies to anything with class="foo", or have H1.foo { stuff} which applies only to H1 tags with a class of foo.
[23:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> and, indeed, because CSS is _cascading_ stylesheets, you can have H1 {stuff}, and .foo {stuff}, and H1.foo {stuff} and depending on the order they'll all apply
[23:43] <humphreybc> how do i tell an image to live above text, instead of being in line?
[23:44] <IlyaHaykinson_> above the text? put it in its own <div>
<img .../></div>
[23:46] <humphreybc> and to align it in the center?
[23:46] <IlyaHaykinson_> apply style to the div, { text-align: center; } i think
[23:47] <humphreybc> neat
[23:53] <IlyaHaykinson_> *sigh* the Firefox guide copy is helpful, but still requires a lot of touch-up.
[23:53] <humphreybc> anyone know how to export the changes out of firebug into a CSS file?
[23:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> they're not very exact (they don't get all the menu item capitalization right)
[23:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> sometimes too colloquial in their language
[23:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> and often just don't give enough context to the action being performed
[23:54] <IlyaHaykinson_> still, it saves about 70% of the work.
[23:55] <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: copy/paste? not sure, i rarely do CSS stuff in firebug, mainly I use the network tab
[23:56] <humphreybc> see copy and paste works fine for the editing bit but when you do the whole "click on stuff" to change it, for some reason it doesn't send your changes through to the editing bit
[23:56] <humphreybc> hard to explain