IlyaHaykinsonLulu costs for publishing aren't cheap.00:09
IlyaHaykinsona 150 page manual is ~USD9.2500:09
IlyaHaykinsonthey do have "publsiher grade" paper, which is cheaper (USD6.20), but that's only available in US Letter sizes00:10
IlyaHaykinsonwhich, I suppose isn't a problem -- if it's pre-printed, it doesn't need to be sized according to locale00:10
IlyaHaykinsonbut still, not super-cheap00:10
humphreybcso does the user pay for that?00:28
humphreybcor us?00:28
humphreybcplanet ubuntu manual is up!00:30
IlyaHaykinsoni think whoever orders the print pays the cost. if we pre-print 100 copies then i guess we pay for them, they get shipped to us (whoever "us" is), and we get to ship them out to people. cost goes down.00:31
IlyaHaykinsonif the user orders them, then the user pays the cost00:31
IlyaHaykinsonactually, the prices i mentioned were the manufacturing prices00:32
IlyaHaykinsoner, manufacturing costs00:32
IlyaHaykinsonon top of that, Lulu itself takes USD2.0000:32
IlyaHaykinsonand then there's shipping00:32
humphreybcso expensive for us?00:37
godbykhumphreybc: Here's how lulu has worked in the past for me.00:41
godbykYou set the price of the book (which has to be a minimum that lulu sets based on page count and size).00:41
godbykIf you don't want to make any money on the book, then lulu will sell it for the manufacturing cost (and not take a percentage).00:42
godbykWhoever purchases the book through the lulu.com site pays the bill.00:42
godbykSo we could put books up on lulu at no cost to us.00:42
godbykThe person who buys the book pays for that book.00:42
godbykIf we set it at $0 profit, then they get the book at cost.00:43
IlyaHaykinsongodbyk: ah, so lulu won't even take their $2 if we don't take a cut? that's nice.00:43
godbykIlyaHaykinson: That's correct.00:43
godbykAt least that's how it worked a couple years ago when I last put a book on there.00:43
godbykYou can also offer the book for download on their site (at some price you set, or for free).00:43
IlyaHaykinson*sigh* lulu actually sued my company once... :)00:45
IlyaHaykinsoni'm sure it cost us more than nominal amounts to defend ourselves, till we settled. not that i'm bitter.00:45
IlyaHaykinsonah, re pricing, godbyk -- you're right. lulu takes 20% of the author's markup, not a fixed fee, thus if there's no markup then there's no fee for lulu00:47
godbykIlyaHaykinson: wow. what'd they sue your company for?00:51
humphreybcSo we can put the manual on lulu to offer it for print?00:51
godbykAlso, there are other POD companies out there that we can look at.  I've only used lulu, though, so I don't know about the others.00:52
godbykhumphreybc: yes.00:52
godbykIt wouldn't cost us anything (unless we want to give it an ISBN and whatnot).00:52
humphreybcneat. that's good :)00:53
humphreybckevin, do you have a hackagotchi for the planet? and Ilya have you got a blog?00:53
IlyaHaykinsonhumphreybc: http://ilya.us00:53
humphreybctry http://planet.interesting.co.nz (subdomain of my site) it should work, but might not have changed for everyone yet00:53
IlyaHaykinsonbut i don't really blog often, nor about ubuntu, usually00:53
humphreybcup to you whether you want it aggregated or not. dutchie is hosting the planet on his VPS00:54
godbykhumphreybc: I don't have a hackergotchi at the moment.  I can try to find a pic sometime if somebody wants to make one.00:54
IlyaHaykinsonhumphreybc: i'll be ok if you skip me. it wouldn't add anything.00:55
humphreybcgodbyk: we're not really bothering with the whole headless thing00:55
* IlyaHaykinson also thinks that he'd prefer to concentrate on the manual itself, and not on meta-manual things like blogs :)00:55
humphreybcjust a square picture of you00:55
humphreybcfair enough Ilya :)00:56
humphreybcthis cereal is delicious00:57
humphreybcIlyaHaykinson: have you been talking with the people who are Deon's old chapter?00:59
iantohumphreybc: Can you send me the translated version of the planet theme when you have the time?01:06
iantoI really cna't be boether in redoing it again :)01:06
humphreybcsure thing01:06
humphreybcwhat's your email?01:06
humphreybcit should be in the bzr branch01:06
humphreybcbut i can email u it01:06
iantoThanks a lot ;)01:08
iantoI'll probably end up translating into Welsh as well eventually for the bilingual site01:08
humphreybcoh neat01:08
humphreybcit didn't take me long01:08
iantohttp://ubuntu-cym.org will become http://drupal.ianto.ch01:09
IlyaHaykinsonhumphreybc: actually i'm debating what to do. two people volunteered (plus Ryan, who still has chap7 to finish), but one has limited english knowledge and another has limited linux skills01:11
IlyaHaykinsonmy thinking is to a) assign a little bit of work to each, b) continue searching for a lead for this chapter01:11
humphreybchow far thru chapter 7 is ryan?01:11
IlyaHaykinsonyou had said he was almost done?01:11
humphreybci'm not entirely sure01:12
IlyaHaykinsonin either case, though, even if the first draft is done, it will require too much work to assign both chap4 and 7 to the same person01:12
IlyaHaykinsoni've posted on the technical writing list (my post is still in moderation) asking for help01:12
IlyaHaykinsoni also recommend approaching flossmanuals.net01:13
IlyaHaykinsonthey have some experienced writers01:13
* ianto would like to write about something but everything seems to be taken01:13
IlyaHaykinsonianto: chapter 401:13
IlyaHaykinsonon hardware01:13
IlyaHaykinsonsee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware for the outline01:14
iantoCould cover keyboards and printers to start off (to key items :p)01:14
IlyaHaykinsonthat would actually be great.01:15
IlyaHaykinsonthe input devices portion is probably the shortest -- there's not much difficulty there.01:16
IlyaHaykinsonthe printing one is pretty important, however.01:16
IlyaHaykinsonok, i'll send mail to you and the other two people, and hopefully we can come to an email agreement on separation of writing.01:17
IlyaHaykinsonand i'll continue to look for a fourth person (i think we need at least that many, to make the chapter work)01:17
IlyaHaykinsonin the interim, i'll assume that my chapter outline is accepted (there were no comments about it), and create the structure files in bazaar, so that everyone has a separate file to work on (fewer conflicts)01:18
iantoIlyaHaykinson: I just updated the blueprint with a willing to do this part.01:19
IlyaHaykinsonok, thanks.01:19
IlyaHaykinsonok, mailed01:50
* IlyaHaykinson is changing the assignee on the chap4 blueprint to self, until a replacement lead is found01:54
humphreybcdutchie: could you please add in another link in the HTML for the planet menu bar: Identi.ca (http://identi.ca/theubuntumanual)01:55
IlyaHaykinson_godbyk: any way you can tighten-up enumerate and itemize vertical spacing?06:23
IlyaHaykinson_there's quite a bit of space in instruction lists... could probably be reduced by 50%...06:24
IlyaHaykinson_i have a few sets of instructions that start with:06:24
IlyaHaykinson_To do something:06:24
IlyaHaykinson_then a blank line06:24
IlyaHaykinson_then an enumeration, or whatnot06:24
IlyaHaykinson_however, due to indentation rules, "To do something:" is indented (since it's the beginning of a paragraph)06:25
IlyaHaykinson_this looks very strange06:25
IlyaHaykinson_obviously, we could globally disable indentation on non-leading paragraphs.06:25
IlyaHaykinson_however, i actually like this indentation on _actual_ paragraphs.06:25
IlyaHaykinson_is there a way to disable indentation on a paragraph if its exactly one line?06:25
godbykyou could say \noindent at the beginning.06:26
IlyaHaykinson_ok. that should solve my problem. thanks!06:27
godbyknp.  though if the introductory line isn't really the beginning of a new paragraph, you could just keep it with the previous paragraph.06:33
IlyaHaykinson_well, i do want to have it stand out, rather than dangle at the end of the previous paragraph. this basically makes it the introduction to the enumeration, rather than part of the previous copy.06:37
jmburgesshey guys06:44
* IlyaHaykinson_ waves06:45
jmburgesshow are we all doing tonight06:46
wolterhey guys06:48
jmburgesshey wolter06:48
wolterhow is it going jmburgess ?06:48
jmburgessup late doing hw06:48
jmburgessmissing winter break, but whatever06:48
wolterjust finished my guitar session06:49
wolternow, i'm going to get to work on the manual, polishing chapter 506:49
wolterand maybe later on my personal project06:49
godbykThe Ubuntu manual *isn't* a personal project, wolter? :)06:53
jmburgessyeah school has been eating my life so I haven't been able to do much on the manual06:54
jmburgesswhich makes me sad06:54
* IlyaHaykinson_ just pushed a few revisions, and now has to look forward to documention Evolution, which he's never used before...06:54
woltergodbyk, well, it is shared by other people, so its not as personal as my other one :)06:57
wolterwhich welcomes people btw, but at the moment i am the only one in the team06:57
IlyaHaykinson_has anyone seen b1ackcr0w here recently?06:58
woltergodbyk, could you make a \definition alias to \notecallout[Definition]{...}06:58
IlyaHaykinson_seems like he was last on about 8 hrs ago... next time he is in, can someone ping him about Chapter 2?06:59
IlyaHaykinson_it's been a while since we've seen a commit in that chapter.07:00
godbykwolter: Yeah, I will do that at some point -- once I get the glossary stuff incorporated in.07:03
IlyaHaykinson_toshazed is helping with Chap4 as well, woot.07:07
wolterhumphreybc, i must say i like the blog better now :)07:07
humphreybcwhat's that? my one?07:09
wolterhumphreybc, yes07:12
jmburgessyeah I need to finish up my chapter as well07:12
IlyaHaykinson_jmburgess: indeed :)   i find it easier to just write a little bit every day.07:14
IlyaHaykinson_rather than big-bang the whole thing out.07:14
jmburgessyeah I agree07:16
jmburgessI usually type away in between classes or such07:16
humphreybcdoes anyone know how nisshh is going on 7?07:18
wolteryour name on top of it, with some fancy style07:23
IlyaHaykinson_hm, is GFDL 1.1 content compatible with CC-BY-SA 3.0?07:36
IlyaHaykinson_crap. it is not.07:38
IlyaHaykinson_which means that i cannot use the really wonderful F-Spot guide written by the GNOME team.07:38
IlyaHaykinson_maybe i should just email miguel de icaza07:38
humphreybcgood idea07:49
IlyaHaykinson_i asked him on irc. no reply yet, but i don't think he'll allow relicensing under a CC-compatible license.07:51
IlyaHaykinson_ok, time for me to go sleep.08:06
* IlyaHaykinson_ just noticed that the Evolution guide he was going to use is _also_ GFDL. argh, argh, argh.08:08
* IlyaHaykinson_ goes to sleep, defeated by Richard Stallman's license08:08
thorwilvish: i agree regarding the name. still waiting to hear from the others, though13:22
vishthorwil: yeah... its about time the name is decided ;)13:47
=== vish is now known as \vish
wolterhey vish18:57
woltercould you revise an icon i'm making?18:57
thorwilhi wolter! got my mail where i asked if you're on board?19:00
wolterthorwil, hm, haven't read it i guess19:01
wolterwhat do you mean, for the design team?19:01
wolter(yes i am)19:01
wolterwell yes, is there any todo list?19:03
wolteror something I can start working on?19:03
wolterwell, let me read the email19:03
wolteris it the Ubuntu Manual Cover Design mail?19:06
thorwilwolter: "Ubuntu Manual Design Team"19:07
wolterI don't know where the original went, but I replied to vish's reply19:12
thorwilmy mails disappear a bit too often19:14
thorwilwolter: regarding a todo: audience needs to be discussed on the next meeting. title, too, i guess19:16
wolternet saturday?19:16
thorwilwolter: you could of course already write down your own thought regarding the exact mission statement / strategy of the manual, the audience, tone, message19:17
wolterwell, maybe we could make it a littlle earlier? that is, if nobody has a problem with that19:17
wolterlike, earlier in the week i mean19:17
wolterbecause its still monday19:17
wolteroh ok19:18
wolterthat looks like a nice thing to do19:18
thorwilwolter: then we need to understand the current internal layout and font choice so we can later on evaluate if it needs to be tweaked19:19

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