[00:09] <IlyaHaykinson> Lulu costs for publishing aren't cheap.
[00:09] <IlyaHaykinson> a 150 page manual is ~USD9.25
[00:10] <IlyaHaykinson> they do have "publsiher grade" paper, which is cheaper (USD6.20), but that's only available in US Letter sizes
[00:10] <IlyaHaykinson> which, I suppose isn't a problem -- if it's pre-printed, it doesn't need to be sized according to locale
[00:10] <IlyaHaykinson> but still, not super-cheap
[00:28] <humphreybc> so does the user pay for that?
[00:28] <humphreybc> or us?
[00:30] <humphreybc> planet ubuntu manual is up!
[00:31] <IlyaHaykinson> i think whoever orders the print pays the cost. if we pre-print 100 copies then i guess we pay for them, they get shipped to us (whoever "us" is), and we get to ship them out to people. cost goes down.
[00:31] <IlyaHaykinson> if the user orders them, then the user pays the cost
[00:32] <IlyaHaykinson> actually, the prices i mentioned were the manufacturing prices
[00:32] <IlyaHaykinson> er, manufacturing costs
[00:32] <IlyaHaykinson> on top of that, Lulu itself takes USD2.00
[00:32] <IlyaHaykinson> and then there's shipping
[00:37] <humphreybc> ah
[00:37] <humphreybc> so expensive for us?
[00:41] <godbyk> humphreybc: Here's how lulu has worked in the past for me.
[00:41] <godbyk> You set the price of the book (which has to be a minimum that lulu sets based on page count and size).
[00:42] <godbyk> If you don't want to make any money on the book, then lulu will sell it for the manufacturing cost (and not take a percentage).
[00:42] <godbyk> Whoever purchases the book through the lulu.com site pays the bill.
[00:42] <godbyk> So we could put books up on lulu at no cost to us.
[00:42] <godbyk> The person who buys the book pays for that book.
[00:43] <godbyk> If we set it at $0 profit, then they get the book at cost.
[00:43] <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ah, so lulu won't even take their $2 if we don't take a cut? that's nice.
[00:43] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: That's correct.
[00:43] <godbyk> At least that's how it worked a couple years ago when I last put a book on there.
[00:43] <godbyk> You can also offer the book for download on their site (at some price you set, or for free).
[00:45] <IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* lulu actually sued my company once... :)
[00:45] <IlyaHaykinson> i'm sure it cost us more than nominal amounts to defend ourselves, till we settled. not that i'm bitter.
[00:47] <IlyaHaykinson> ah, re pricing, godbyk -- you're right. lulu takes 20% of the author's markup, not a fixed fee, thus if there's no markup then there's no fee for lulu
[00:51] <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: wow. what'd they sue your company for?
[00:51] <humphreybc> So we can put the manual on lulu to offer it for print?
[00:52] <godbyk> Also, there are other POD companies out there that we can look at.  I've only used lulu, though, so I don't know about the others.
[00:52] <godbyk> humphreybc: yes.
[00:52] <godbyk> It wouldn't cost us anything (unless we want to give it an ISBN and whatnot).
[00:53] <humphreybc> neat. that's good :)
[00:53] <humphreybc> kevin, do you have a hackagotchi for the planet? and Ilya have you got a blog?
[00:53] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: http://ilya.us
[00:53] <humphreybc> try http://planet.interesting.co.nz (subdomain of my site) it should work, but might not have changed for everyone yet
[00:53] <IlyaHaykinson> but i don't really blog often, nor about ubuntu, usually
[00:54] <humphreybc> up to you whether you want it aggregated or not. dutchie is hosting the planet on his VPS
[00:54] <godbyk> humphreybc: I don't have a hackergotchi at the moment.  I can try to find a pic sometime if somebody wants to make one.
[00:55] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i'll be ok if you skip me. it wouldn't add anything.
[00:55] <humphreybc> godbyk: we're not really bothering with the whole headless thing
[00:55]  * IlyaHaykinson also thinks that he'd prefer to concentrate on the manual itself, and not on meta-manual things like blogs :)
[00:55] <humphreybc> just a square picture of you
[00:56] <godbyk> gotcha
[00:56] <humphreybc> fair enough Ilya :)
[00:57] <humphreybc> this cereal is delicious
[00:59] <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: have you been talking with the people who are Deon's old chapter?
[01:06] <ianto> humphreybc: Can you send me the translated version of the planet theme when you have the time?
[01:06] <ianto> I really cna't be boether in redoing it again :)
[01:06] <humphreybc> sure thing
[01:06] <humphreybc> what's your email?
[01:06] <ianto> christopher.swift@linux.com
[01:06] <humphreybc> it should be in the bzr branch
[01:06] <humphreybc> but i can email u it
[01:08] <ianto> Thanks a lot ;)
[01:08] <ianto> I'll probably end up translating into Welsh as well eventually for the bilingual site
[01:08] <humphreybc> oh neat
[01:08] <humphreybc> it didn't take me long
[01:09] <ianto> http://ubuntu-cym.org will become http://drupal.ianto.ch
[01:11] <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: actually i'm debating what to do. two people volunteered (plus Ryan, who still has chap7 to finish), but one has limited english knowledge and another has limited linux skills
[01:11] <humphreybc> ah
[01:11] <IlyaHaykinson> my thinking is to a) assign a little bit of work to each, b) continue searching for a lead for this chapter
[01:11] <humphreybc> how far thru chapter 7 is ryan?
[01:11] <IlyaHaykinson> you had said he was almost done?
[01:12] <humphreybc> i'm not entirely sure
[01:12] <IlyaHaykinson> in either case, though, even if the first draft is done, it will require too much work to assign both chap4 and 7 to the same person
[01:12] <humphreybc> indeed
[01:12] <IlyaHaykinson> i've posted on the technical writing list (my post is still in moderation) asking for help
[01:13] <IlyaHaykinson> i also recommend approaching flossmanuals.net
[01:13] <IlyaHaykinson> they have some experienced writers
[01:13]  * ianto would like to write about something but everything seems to be taken
[01:13] <IlyaHaykinson> ianto: chapter 4
[01:13] <IlyaHaykinson> on hardware
[01:14] <IlyaHaykinson> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware for the outline
[01:14] <ianto> Could cover keyboards and printers to start off (to key items :p)
[01:15] <ianto> *two
[01:15] <IlyaHaykinson> that would actually be great.
[01:16] <IlyaHaykinson> the input devices portion is probably the shortest -- there's not much difficulty there.
[01:16] <IlyaHaykinson> the printing one is pretty important, however.
[01:17] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, i'll send mail to you and the other two people, and hopefully we can come to an email agreement on separation of writing.
[01:17] <IlyaHaykinson> and i'll continue to look for a fourth person (i think we need at least that many, to make the chapter work)
[01:18] <IlyaHaykinson> in the interim, i'll assume that my chapter outline is accepted (there were no comments about it), and create the structure files in bazaar, so that everyone has a separate file to work on (fewer conflicts)
[01:19] <ianto> IlyaHaykinson: I just updated the blueprint with a willing to do this part.
[01:19] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, thanks.
[01:19] <ianto> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/chapter4
[01:50] <IlyaHaykinson> ok, mailed
[01:54]  * IlyaHaykinson is changing the assignee on the chap4 blueprint to self, until a replacement lead is found
[01:55] <humphreybc> dutchie: could you please add in another link in the HTML for the planet menu bar: Identi.ca (http://identi.ca/theubuntumanual)
[06:23] <IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: any way you can tighten-up enumerate and itemize vertical spacing?
[06:24] <godbyk> yep
[06:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> there's quite a bit of space in instruction lists... could probably be reduced by 50%...
[06:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> thanks
[06:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> also....
[06:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> i have a few sets of instructions that start with:
[06:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> To do something:
[06:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> then a blank line
[06:24] <IlyaHaykinson_> then an enumeration, or whatnot
[06:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> however, due to indentation rules, "To do something:" is indented (since it's the beginning of a paragraph)
[06:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> this looks very strange
[06:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> obviously, we could globally disable indentation on non-leading paragraphs.
[06:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> however, i actually like this indentation on _actual_ paragraphs.
[06:25] <IlyaHaykinson_> is there a way to disable indentation on a paragraph if its exactly one line?
[06:26] <godbyk> you could say \noindent at the beginning.
[06:27] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok. that should solve my problem. thanks!
[06:33] <godbyk> np.  though if the introductory line isn't really the beginning of a new paragraph, you could just keep it with the previous paragraph.
[06:37] <IlyaHaykinson_> well, i do want to have it stand out, rather than dangle at the end of the previous paragraph. this basically makes it the introduction to the enumeration, rather than part of the previous copy.
[06:44] <jmburgess> hey guys
[06:45]  * IlyaHaykinson_ waves
[06:46] <jmburgess> how are we all doing tonight
[06:48] <wolter> hey guys
[06:48] <jmburgess> hey wolter
[06:48] <wolter> how is it going jmburgess ?
[06:48] <jmburgess> good
[06:48] <jmburgess> up late doing hw
[06:48] <jmburgess> missing winter break, but whatever
[06:49] <jmburgess> you?
[06:49] <wolter> just finished my guitar session
[06:49] <wolter> now, i'm going to get to work on the manual, polishing chapter 5
[06:49] <wolter> and maybe later on my personal project
[06:53] <godbyk> The Ubuntu manual *isn't* a personal project, wolter? :)
[06:53] <jmburgess> haha
[06:54] <jmburgess> yeah school has been eating my life so I haven't been able to do much on the manual
[06:54] <jmburgess> which makes me sad
[06:54]  * IlyaHaykinson_ just pushed a few revisions, and now has to look forward to documention Evolution, which he's never used before...
[06:57] <wolter> godbyk, well, it is shared by other people, so its not as personal as my other one :)
[06:57] <wolter> which welcomes people btw, but at the moment i am the only one in the team
[06:58] <IlyaHaykinson_> has anyone seen b1ackcr0w here recently?
[06:58] <wolter> godbyk, could you make a \definition alias to \notecallout[Definition]{...}
[06:59] <IlyaHaykinson_> seems like he was last on about 8 hrs ago... next time he is in, can someone ping him about Chapter 2?
[07:00] <IlyaHaykinson_> it's been a while since we've seen a commit in that chapter.
[07:03] <godbyk> wolter: Yeah, I will do that at some point -- once I get the glossary stuff incorporated in.
[07:03] <wolter> nice
[07:07] <IlyaHaykinson_> toshazed is helping with Chap4 as well, woot.
[07:07] <wolter> humphreybc, i must say i like the blog better now :)
[07:09] <humphreybc> what's that? my one?
[07:12] <wolter> humphreybc, yes
[07:12] <jmburgess> yeah I need to finish up my chapter as well
[07:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> jmburgess: indeed :)   i find it easier to just write a little bit every day.
[07:14] <IlyaHaykinson_> rather than big-bang the whole thing out.
[07:16] <jmburgess> yeah I agree
[07:16] <jmburgess> I usually type away in between classes or such
[07:18] <humphreybc> does anyone know how nisshh is going on 7?
[07:23] <wolter> your name on top of it, with some fancy style
[07:36] <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, is GFDL 1.1 content compatible with CC-BY-SA 3.0?
[07:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> crap. it is not.
[07:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> which means that i cannot use the really wonderful F-Spot guide written by the GNOME team.
[07:38] <IlyaHaykinson_> maybe i should just email miguel de icaza
[07:49] <humphreybc> good idea
[07:51] <IlyaHaykinson_> i asked him on irc. no reply yet, but i don't think he'll allow relicensing under a CC-compatible license.
[08:06] <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, time for me to go sleep.
[08:08]  * IlyaHaykinson_ just noticed that the Evolution guide he was going to use is _also_ GFDL. argh, argh, argh.
[08:08]  * IlyaHaykinson_ goes to sleep, defeated by Richard Stallman's license
[13:22] <thorwil> vish: i agree regarding the name. still waiting to hear from the others, though
[13:47] <vish> thorwil: yeah... its about time the name is decided ;)
[18:57] <wolter> hey vish
[18:57] <wolter> could you revise an icon i'm making?
[19:00] <thorwil> hi wolter! got my mail where i asked if you're on board?
[19:01] <wolter> thorwil, hm, haven't read it i guess
[19:01] <wolter> what do you mean, for the design team?
[19:01] <wolter> (yes i am)
[19:01] <wolter> brb
[19:01] <thorwil> yes
[19:03] <wolter> well yes, is there any todo list?
[19:03] <wolter> or something I can start working on?
[19:03] <wolter> well, let me read the email
[19:06] <wolter> is it the Ubuntu Manual Cover Design mail?
[19:07] <thorwil> wolter: "Ubuntu Manual Design Team"
[19:11] <wolter> ok
[19:12] <wolter> I don't know where the original went, but I replied to vish's reply
[19:14] <thorwil> my mails disappear a bit too often
[19:16] <thorwil> wolter: regarding a todo: audience needs to be discussed on the next meeting. title, too, i guess
[19:16] <wolter> good
[19:16] <wolter> net saturday?
[19:16] <thorwil> yes
[19:17] <wolter> nice
[19:17] <thorwil> wolter: you could of course already write down your own thought regarding the exact mission statement / strategy of the manual, the audience, tone, message
[19:17] <wolter> well, maybe we could make it a littlle earlier? that is, if nobody has a problem with that
[19:17] <wolter> like, earlier in the week i mean
[19:17] <wolter> because its still monday
[19:18] <wolter> oh ok
[19:18] <wolter> that looks like a nice thing to do
[19:19] <thorwil> wolter: then we need to understand the current internal layout and font choice so we can later on evaluate if it needs to be tweaked